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"Is it reasonable for Qatar to ask lgbtq visitors for the world Cup to respect their host countries values? " ............................ Yes it's reasonable. No it's not reasonable they were granted the tournament in the first place. | |||
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"I have zero respect for the 'values' of repressive dictatorships or religions so would choose not to visit countries where they were enforced. The World Cup obviously shouldn't have been awarded to Qatar." Totally agree. And no it is not reasonable. I cannot sit here and say homophobia/transphobia etc is reasonable in any situation no matter where. | |||
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"I have zero respect for the 'values' of repressive dictatorships or religions so would choose not to visit countries where they were enforced. The World Cup obviously shouldn't have been awarded to Qatar." Of course and nobody is forcing you to visit there. But the reality is that it has been awarded there. Similar to when it went to Russia before that. | |||
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"Apparently the requests to do so is "shockingly tone deaf". Perhaps I'm a bit old school but I wouldn't have thought it's too much to ask folks to respect a country you have been allowed in to visit and experience their culture.... To respect their culture... And requesting visitors respect their values... You'd think would be unnecessary but sadly our reputation seems to precede us. " ............................. Hosting the WC was a 'gift' from FIFA to Qatar. Qatar are not doing it for altruistic reasons, commercially and politically it's a massive coup for them. The terms of the award should include standards of behaviour on the hosting nation. If nations can't abide to those terms they shouldn't apply to host the tournament. | |||
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"Why would anyone want to visit a country with those kinds of views/laws/values is beyond me. I've not watched any games in the lead up to this nor will I watch any in the tournament regardless of how England progress. Me not watching won't have any affect on anything but at least I'll not be supporting it. However if everyone did this it would. Because C R E A M (cue the Wu Tang)" Cash rules everything around me, CREAM, get the money! | |||
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"Apparently the requests to do so is "shockingly tone deaf". Perhaps I'm a bit old school but I wouldn't have thought it's too much to ask folks to respect a country you have been allowed in to visit and experience their culture.... To respect their culture... And requesting visitors respect their values... You'd think would be unnecessary but sadly our reputation seems to precede us. ............................. Hosting the WC was a 'gift' from FIFA to Qatar. Qatar are not doing it for altruistic reasons, commercially and politically it's a massive coup for them. The terms of the award should include standards of behaviour on the hosting nation. If nations can't abide to those terms they shouldn't apply to host the tournament." I think you're conflating separate issues. Don't disagree with what you wrote per se. The bidding process is done. (not a gift by the way... It was purchased)But that has nothing to do with visitors respecting a countries values. A different example.. If I visit a dry state... If I choose to drink alcohol I shouldn't be surprised if there are consequences. | |||
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"Why would anyone want to visit a country with those kinds of views/laws/values is beyond me. I've not watched any games in the lead up to this nor will I watch any in the tournament regardless of how England progress. Me not watching won't have any affect on anything but at least I'll not be supporting it. However if everyone did this it would. Because C R E A M (cue the Wu Tang) Cash rules everything around me, CREAM, get the money!" Dolla dolla bills yall | |||
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"I have zero respect for the 'values' of repressive dictatorships or religions so would choose not to visit countries where they were enforced. The World Cup obviously shouldn't have been awarded to Qatar. Totally agree. And no it is not reasonable. I cannot sit here and say homophobia/transphobia etc is reasonable in any situation no matter where. " Exactly. Homophobia etc is not culture. Culture would be the poetry, the food and drink, the customs of drinking sweet tea or whatever in cafés etc. Not infringing human rights. And that applies to any country that prevents its citizens from enjoying their full rights, not just Qatar. | |||
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"Is it reasonable for Qatar to ask lgbtq visitors for the world Cup to respect their host countries values? ............................ Yes it's reasonable. No it's not reasonable they were granted the tournament in the first place." This. | |||
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" ............................. Hosting the WC was a 'gift' from FIFA to Qatar. Qatar are not doing it for altruistic reasons, commercially and politically it's a massive coup for them. The terms of the award should include standards of behaviour on the hosting nation. If nations can't abide to those terms they shouldn't apply to host the tournament. I think you're conflating separate issues. Don't disagree with what you wrote per se. The bidding process is done. (not a gift by the way... It was purchased)But that has nothing to do with visitors respecting a countries values. A different example.. If I visit a dry state... If I choose to drink alcohol I shouldn't be surprised if there are consequences. " .............................. I did say it was reasonable for Qatar to ask visitors to respect their culture. I also put gift in inverted commas, it's a gift in so far as what award represents to the hosting nation and the platform it provides for them. Personally I believe basic human rights trump the freedom to drink alcohol. | |||
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"Respecting culture? Yes. Respecting a total disregard for basic human rights? No." The problem here is that there is no one set of universal human rights that just exist because they are right. Our human rights *are* part of our culture. There's are different. Shit, to our eyes, sure. But we can't go around the world and do stuff our way wherever we go. If there is such a wide disconnect between what you see as acceptable and what the place you go to deems as acceptable, the solution is only to not go. Not to go, and be disrespectful to the laws and culture. You can't pick and choose which bits to respect and which to not. If you spit in my beer, you disrespected my whole beer not just the bit that got spit in... Qatar is a shitty country that has loads of reasons other than LGBT stuff to choose not to go, and indeed I have chosen not to twice in the past because of them (rather because of the accumulated problematic nature of them all). It would make a better point of what we think about the place if the matches were played too empty seats, than if a load of westerners turned up, got pissed on booze you're not supposed to be able to get and then started waving flags and wearing t shirts with gay slogans and rainbows, to my mind. | |||
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"Also we have just appointed an equalities minister with sine really dodgy opinions on LGBTQIA+ rights and equality. We probably aren't the country best placed to complain about a foreign government's draconian views when we are going down that route too " This  | |||
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"Respecting culture? Yes. Respecting a total disregard for basic human rights? No. The problem here is that there is no one set of universal human rights that just exist because they are right. Our human rights *are* part of our culture. There's are different. Shit, to our eyes, sure. But we can't go around the world and do stuff our way wherever we go. If there is such a wide disconnect between what you see as acceptable and what the place you go to deems as acceptable, the solution is only to not go. Not to go, and be disrespectful to the laws and culture. You can't pick and choose which bits to respect and which to not. If you spit in my beer, you disrespected my whole beer not just the bit that got spit in... Qatar is a shitty country that has loads of reasons other than LGBT stuff to choose not to go, and indeed I have chosen not to twice in the past because of them (rather because of the accumulated problematic nature of them all). It would make a better point of what we think about the place if the matches were played too empty seats, than if a load of westerners turned up, got pissed on booze you're not supposed to be able to get and then started waving flags and wearing t shirts with gay slogans and rainbows, to my mind." I'm using the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which is a pretty well accepted and tried & tested thing. I'm not going to respect a government that rides completely roughshod over it. I'm also not going to visit the country. What I DO is teach young people from such countries and within this, challenge their indoctrination and invite them to decide what they think is best. Most young people from such countries have very different views to that of the older people/government. | |||
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"I have zero respect for the 'values' of repressive dictatorships or religions so would choose not to visit countries where they were enforced. The World Cup obviously shouldn't have been awarded to Qatar. Totally agree. And no it is not reasonable. I cannot sit here and say homophobia/transphobia etc is reasonable in any situation no matter where. Exactly. Homophobia etc is not culture. Culture would be the poetry, the food and drink, the customs of drinking sweet tea or whatever in cafés etc. Not infringing human rights. And that applies to any country that prevents its citizens from enjoying their full rights, not just Qatar." Sadly, this isn't how I see it, homophobia *is* THEIR culture (the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society). You can't separate which behaviours are cultural, and which are not on the basis of whether them being displayed is different to ours. They don't have these rights, they can't be infringed upon. The law and the culture walk hand in hand on this. Obviously I agree with you that they DO have terrible rights compared to us. And sorry I replied to your comments each time here, I'm not picking on you, it's only because you used it twice. "rights" are tricky, there is no one set, and they often contradict each other anyway. We have a human rights act put into law only since 1988. The United Nations human rights declaration was just after WW2, but it changes regularly. As our culture changes, so do the rights afforded to us. They are just behind, they're not breaking some universal right pact that has always existed. Hopefully they catch up. Probably they don't. | |||
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"If I were to visit a country with rather different values and laws, I would abide by those laws and not openly and demonstratively display my sexual preferences - but then I would not do it as a heterosexual person either. I have a choice to visit such a country. In an ideal world it would be good to see other cultures will respect the laws of the countries they are visiting." like GB for example lol | |||
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"Is it reasonable for Qatar to ask lgbtq visitors for the world Cup to respect their host countries values? " -------- Yes it is reasonable. No wish to visit Qatar at all, but the problem is (in my opinion) some people will no doubt get pissed and then decide to openly & deliberately demonstrate their affection in public... contrary to what they know full well is the local law... but they may want to have their 15 minutes of fame... When visiting another country is it not reasonable that we should respect and abide by that country's rules, whether we agree with them or not? Otherwise don't go there. Some will possibly see this as an opportunity to make a point in support of lgbt issues. ------- | |||
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"And yet they will he selling alcohol. Funny that." exactly they can come to our country to live but they bring their values here with them and we cowtow to their needs lol | |||
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"And yet they will he selling alcohol. Funny that.exactly they can come to our country to live but they bring their values here with them and we cowtow to their needs lol " By Cowtow do you mean respect their values? Is that a bad thing? Which Muslim value thst we 'cowtow' has a negative impact on your life? | |||
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"And yet they will he selling alcohol. Funny that." Alcohol isn't illegal in Qatar and alcohol can be purchased. Drinking in public and in particulsr being d*unk in public is an offence though. They've introduced onevfan zinevwhere alcohol will be sold and presumably the other 2 rules will be relaxed inside it. | |||
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"And yet they will he selling alcohol. Funny that.exactly they can come to our country to live but they bring their values here with them and we cowtow to their needs lol " I meant in Qatar a "dry" country that will be selling alcohol for the tournament but at extortionate prices. | |||
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"Human rights should trump national laws. " Good catchphrase. Does that mean they should or should not respect the values of the country they are visiting? And is it reasonable to expect that they do? What human rights are being broken to ask people to respect their values? | |||
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"Be interesting to see how their police will handle d*unken fans, seen as they have never really experienced this kind of behaviour " They'll throw them in prison or deport them. | |||
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"And yet they will he selling alcohol. Funny that.exactly they can come to our country to live but they bring their values here with them and we cowtow to their needs lol By Cowtow do you mean respect their values? Is that a bad thing? Which Muslim value thst we 'cowtow' has a negative impact on your life?" lol hey they in our country should abide by our rules if in retrospect we have to abide by theirs don't you think  | |||
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"Is it reasonable for Qatar to ask lgbtq visitors for the world Cup to respect their host countries values? " Yes but I would not be going to a country with those views. They in turn should respect our views and laws when they visit here. | |||
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"Can someone be a different person to who they innately are? The majority of LGT people and likely a good number of B/Q have faced harassment and much worse, so won't need glib messages from politicians, who likely don't understand or care and watch them backs much of the time anyway. " That's the thing though. Nobody is asking anyone to be different to who they really are. All they are asking.. For the few days they are permitted into the host country, is that they respect their values. For a few days. Doesn't seem unreasonable. | |||
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"And yet they will he selling alcohol. Funny that." Can you imagine how it would all kickoff if they didn't sell alcohol? | |||
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"And yet they will he selling alcohol. Funny that.exactly they can come to our country to live but they bring their values here with them and we cowtow to their needs lol By Cowtow do you mean respect their values? Is that a bad thing? Which Muslim value thst we 'cowtow' has a negative impact on your life?lol hey they in our country should abide by our rules if in retrospect we have to abide by theirs don't you think "Si again, which rules (I assume you mean laws) are Muslims exempt from abiding to in Britain? | |||
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"And yet they will he selling alcohol. Funny that. Can you imagine how it would all kickoff if they didn't sell alcohol? " It probably wouldn't,alcohol is usually the cause of violence at football matches, that's why they have early kick off at some games | |||
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"I think you are making a mistake OP by conflating values and laws. Is it the values of Qatari women to be denied independent rights, or the values of gay men and women to be criminalised? The laws which govern them are imposed by an extreme religious ideology which I'm sure many would reject if they had the choice. Look at the brave women in Iran rejecting the laws which govern their public dress." Perhaps. All I know is I've done a fair bit of travel and every country I've visited I've done my best to respect their values and especially their laws as I have no desire to break them and face the consequences. If I were of lgbtq I would be exactly the same. | |||
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"Is it reasonable for someone to start such a post designed to trigger people before lunch? " Yea, purely for something to read at lunch | |||
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"Human rights should trump national laws. " Human rights only exist when they are enshrined in a national law. See below, there's nothing in them that is specific to apply without a law backing it up. In this case, article 7 seems the most appropriate to use for Qatar and these issues: Article 7: The law is the same for everyone, and must treat us all equally. But if there's a law that says you can't eat crumpets on a Sunday, and this means that people who enjoy eating crumpets on a Sunday can't do that, it can still be compliant with the UNDHR if it's applied consistently across all, not just those who like crumpets.... (terrible analogy but....) A summary of the 30 articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights - Feel free to suggest which one we demand Qatar follows better (genuinely, it would be better than the general Universal Rights imaginary band-aid chatter) Article 1: We are all born free. We all have our own thoughts and ideas and we should all be treated the same way. Article 2: The rights in the UDHR belong to everyone, no matter who we are, where we’re from, or whatever we believe. Article 3: We all have the right to life, and to live in freedom and safety. Article 4: No one should be held as a s lave, and no one has the right to treat anyone else as their s lave. Article 5: No one has the right to inflict torture, or to subject anyone else to cruel or inhuman treatment. Article 6: We should all have the same level of legal protection whoever we are, and wherever in the world we are. Article 7: The law is the same for everyone, and must treat us all equally. Article 8: We should all have the right to legal support if we are treated unfairly. Article 9: Nobody should be arrested, put in prison, or sent away from our country unless there is good reason to do so. Article 10: Everyone accused of a crime has the right to a fair and public trial, and those that try us should be independent and not influenced by others. Article 11: Everyone accused of a crime has the right to be considered innocent until they have fairly been proven to be guilty. Article 12: Nobody has the right to enter our home, open our mail, or intrude on our families without good reason. We also have the right to be protected if someone tries to unfairly damage our reputation. Article 13: We all have the right to move freely within our country, and to visit and leave other countries when we wish. Article 14: If we are at risk of harm we have the right to go to another country to seek protection. Article 15: We all have the right to be a citizen of a country and nobody should prevent us, without good reason, from being a citizen of another country if we wish. Article 16: We should have the right to marry and have a family as soon as we’re legally old enough. Our ethnicity, nationality and religion should not stop us from being able to do this. Men and women have the same rights when they are married and also when they’re separated. We should never be forced to marry. The government has a responsibility to protect us and our family. Article 17: Everyone has the right to own property, and no one has the right to take this away from us without a fair reason. Article 18: Everyone has the freedom to think or believe what they want, including the right to religious belief. We have the right to change our beliefs or religion at any time, and the right to publicly or privately practise our chosen religion, alone or with others. Article 19: Everyone has the right to their own opinions, and to be able to express them freely. We should have the right to share our ideas with who we want, and in whichever way we choose. Article 20: We should all have the right to form groups and organise peaceful meetings. Nobody should be forced to belong to a group if they don’t want to. Article 21: We all have the right to take part in our country’s political affairs either by freely choosing politicians to represent us, or by belonging to the government ourselves. Governments should be voted for by the public on a regular basis, and every person’s individual vote should be secret. Every individual vote should be worth the same. Article 22: The society we live in should help every person develop to their best ability through access to work, involvement in cultural activity, and the right to social welfare. Every person in society should have the freedom to develop their personality with the support of the resources available in that country. Article 23: We all have the right to employment, to be free to choose our work, and to be paid a fair salary that allows us to live and support our family. Everyone who does the same work should have the right to equal pay, without discrimination. We have the right to come together and form trade union groups to defend our interests as workers. Article 24: Everyone has the right to rest and leisure time. There should be limits on working hours, and people should be able to take holidays with pay. Article 25: We all have the right to enough food, clothing, housing and healthcare for ourselves and our families. We should have access to support if we are out of work, ill, elderly, disabled, widowed, or can’t earn a living for reasons outside of our control. An expectant mother and her baby should both receive extra care and support. All children should have the same rights when they are born. Article 26: Everyone has the right to education. Primary schooling should be free. We should all be able to continue our studies as far as we wish. At school we should be helped to develop our talents, and be taught an understanding and respect for everyone’s human rights. We should also be taught to get on with others whatever their ethnicity, religion, or country they come from. Our parents have the right to choose what kind of school we go to. Article 27: We all have the right to get involved in our community’s arts, music, literature and sciences, and the benefits they bring. If we are an artist, a musician, a writer or a scientist, our works should be protected and we should be able to benefit from them. Article 28: We all have the right to live in a peaceful and orderly society so that these rights and freedoms can be protected, and these rights can be enjoyed in all other countries around the world. Article 29: We have duties to the community we live in that should allow us to develop as fully as possible. The law should guarantee human rights and should allow everyone to enjoy the same mutual respect. Article 30: No government, group or individual should act in a way that would destroy the rights and freedoms of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. | |||
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"I don't think their laws/customs should be respected, no. And the best ways of achieving that are not to give them opportunities to host world events and where they are... don't visit or compete." I have a real problem with the idea that the only people who should be allowed to host “world” events are people who share our values. The world is a diverse place and, unfortunately, diversity does mean that there are people who don’t share our values. I personally find the manner that the games were awarded to be highly distasteful but I fully appreciate that the Qataris have their own cultural history and we should be respectful of that - whether we like it or not. For those who say we ignore their laws/cultural history then I would question what your response would be if they came over here and ignored our laws and culture? I assume that you would find it acceptable for them to break our laws because you would happily break theirs? | |||
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"I think you are making a mistake OP by conflating values and laws. Is it the values of Qatari women to be denied independent rights, or the values of gay men and women to be criminalised? The laws which govern them are imposed by an extreme religious ideology which I'm sure many would reject if they had the choice. Look at the brave women in Iran rejecting the laws which govern their public dress." Exactly this! | |||
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"And yet they will he selling alcohol. Funny that.exactly they can come to our country to live but they bring their values here with them and we cowtow to their needs lol By Cowtow do you mean respect their values? Is that a bad thing? Which Muslim value thst we 'cowtow' has a negative impact on your life?lol hey they in our country should abide by our rules if in retrospect we have to abide by theirs don't you think
Si again, which rules (I assume you mean laws) are Muslims exempt from abiding to in Britain?"my argument stands they as a people or religion don't want us in their country but they worship money so they some how or other have been allowed to host this competition, I for one will not be watching it, you however can do as you please | |||
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"And yet they will he selling alcohol. Funny that.exactly they can come to our country to live but they bring their values here with them and we cowtow to their needs lol By Cowtow do you mean respect their values? Is that a bad thing? Which Muslim value thst we 'cowtow' has a negative impact on your life?lol hey they in our country should abide by our rules if in retrospect we have to abide by theirs don't you think
Si again, which rules (I assume you mean laws) are Muslims exempt from abiding to in Britain?my argument stands they as a people or religion don't want us in their country but they worship money so they some how or other have been allowed to host this competition, I for one will not be watching it, you however can do as you please "I've never watched a game of football in my life and that's unlikely to change 
And I'm guesing that means despitebthe casual racism of claiming Britain 'cowtows' to Muslims, you can't offer a single example? | |||
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"Is it reasonable for Qatar to ask lgbtq visitors for the world Cup to respect their host countries values? ............................ Yes it's reasonable. No it's not reasonable they were granted the tournament in the first place." Applause! Best and only, correct answer. | |||
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"And yet they will he selling alcohol. Funny that.exactly they can come to our country to live but they bring their values here with them and we cowtow to their needs lol By Cowtow do you mean respect their values? Is that a bad thing? Which Muslim value thst we 'cowtow' has a negative impact on your life?lol hey they in our country should abide by our rules if in retrospect we have to abide by theirs don't you think
Si again, which rules (I assume you mean laws) are Muslims exempt from abiding to in Britain?my argument stands they as a people or religion don't want us in their country but they worship money so they some how or other have been allowed to host this competition, I for one will not be watching it, you however can do as you please
I've never watched a game of football in my life and that's unlikely to change
And I'm guesing that means despitebthe casual racism of claiming Britain 'cowtows' to Muslims, you can't offer a single example?"I'm a live and let live person if I met a Muslim in the street I wouldn't know he was Muslim and wouldn't ask, if he treated me with respect and vice versa I would as I would anyone be friendly toward him, I do however not agree with the world Cup being held in Qatar and for the reasons stated, the Western world is not welcome in Muslim countries and yet its entertaining one of the biggest money making events in the world but hey ho it's there now  | |||
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"And yet they will he selling alcohol. Funny that. Can you imagine how it would all kickoff if they didn't sell alcohol? " Yes, very badly and pretty short lived for those who do kick off.. | |||
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"And yet they will he selling alcohol. Funny that. By Cowtow do you mean respect their values? Is that a bad thing? Which Muslim value thst we 'cowtow' has a negative impact on your life?lol hey they in our country should abide by our rules if in retrospect we have to abide by theirs don't you think
Si again, which rules (I assume you mean laws) are Muslims exempt from abiding to in Britain?my argument stands they as a people or religion don't want us in their country but they worship money so they some how or other have been allowed to host this competition, I for one will not be watching it, you however can do as you please
I've never watched a game of football in my life and that's unlikely to change
And I'm guesing that means despitebthe casual racism of claiming Britain 'cowtows' to Muslims, you can't offer a single example?I'm a live and let live person if I met a Muslim in the street I wouldn't know he was Muslim and wouldn't ask, if he treated me with respect and vice versa I would as I would anyone be friendly toward him, I do however not agree with the world Cup being held in Qatar and for the reasons stated, the Western world is not welcome in Muslim countries and yet its entertaining one of the biggest money making events in the world but hey ho it's there now ""exactly they can come to our country to live but they bring their values here with them and we cowtow to their needs lol" I'll be honest not sure where that sits with live and let live... 
What makes you say "the western world is not welcome in Western countries", I'm not sure I understand what you mean? | |||
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"Is it reasonable for someone to start such a post designed to trigger people before lunch? " It is a reasonable topic for discussion. If people want to get triggered by it that is on them. Too many things get pushed aside when discussion around such things is healthy. Regardless of the topic you will always get the stoic and stubborn extreme views on both sides that will up the tension and hostilities of a topic but that is no reason for it to not be a valid topic of discussion. | |||
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"And yet they will he selling alcohol. Funny that. By Cowtow do you mean respect their values? Is that a bad thing? Which Muslim value thst we 'cowtow' has a negative impact on your life?lol hey they in our country should abide by our rules if in retrospect we have to abide by theirs don't you think
Si again, which rules (I assume you mean laws) are Muslims exempt from abiding to in Britain?my argument stands they as a people or religion don't want us in their country but they worship money so they some how or other have been allowed to host this competition, I for one will not be watching it, you however can do as you please
I've never watched a game of football in my life and that's unlikely to change
And I'm guesing that means despitebthe casual racism of claiming Britain 'cowtows' to Muslims, you can't offer a single example?I'm a live and let live person if I met a Muslim in the street I wouldn't know he was Muslim and wouldn't ask, if he treated me with respect and vice versa I would as I would anyone be friendly toward him, I do however not agree with the world Cup being held in Qatar and for the reasons stated, the Western world is not welcome in Muslim countries and yet its entertaining one of the biggest money making events in the world but hey ho it's there now
"exactly they can come to our country to live but they bring their values here with them and we cowtow to their needs lol"
I'll be honest not sure where that sits with live and let live...
What makes you say "the western world is not welcome in Western countries", I'm not sure I understand what you mean?"Obviously thst should have said 'the western world is not welcome on Muslim countries'  | |||
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"Is it reasonable for Qatar to ask lgbtq visitors for the world Cup to respect their host countries values? " No, they chose to open their county to the world and host the world cup, so they should be tolerant of others beliefs and values. Though I believe FIFA should have a policy put in place to cover this for future tournaments that host countries must abide by. | |||
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"Is it reasonable for Qatar to ask lgbtq visitors for the world Cup to respect their host countries values? " All about respect in another country So yeah, I agree with Qatar for sticking to their guns unlike certain other soft countries | |||
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"And yet they will he selling alcohol. Funny that. By Cowtow do you mean respect their values? Is that a bad thing? Which Muslim value thst we 'cowtow' has a negative impact on your life?lol hey they in our country should abide by our rules if in retrospect we have to abide by theirs don't you think
Si again, which rules (I assume you mean laws) are Muslims exempt from abiding to in Britain?my argument stands they as a people or religion don't want us in their country but they worship money so they some how or other have been allowed to host this competition, I for one will not be watching it, you however can do as you please
I've never watched a game of football in my life and that's unlikely to change
And I'm guesing that means despitebthe casual racism of claiming Britain 'cowtows' to Muslims, you can't offer a single example?I'm a live and let live person if I met a Muslim in the street I wouldn't know he was Muslim and wouldn't ask, if he treated me with respect and vice versa I would as I would anyone be friendly toward him, I do however not agree with the world Cup being held in Qatar and for the reasons stated, the Western world is not welcome in Muslim countries and yet its entertaining one of the biggest money making events in the world but hey ho it's there now
"exactly they can come to our country to live but they bring their values here with them and we cowtow to their needs lol"
I'll be honest not sure where that sits with live and let live...
What makes you say "the western world is not welcome in Western countries", I'm not sure I understand what you mean?"of course you don't and you never will | |||
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"Is it reasonable for Qatar to ask lgbtq visitors for the world Cup to respect their host countries values? ............................ Yes it's reasonable. No it's not reasonable they were granted the tournament in the first place." Correct. | |||
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"And yet they will he selling alcohol. Funny that. By Cowtow do you mean respect their values? Is that a bad thing? Which Muslim value thst we 'cowtow' has a negative impact on your life?lol hey they in our country should abide by our rules if in retrospect we have to abide by theirs don't you think
Si again, which rules (I assume you mean laws) are Muslims exempt from abiding to in Britain?my argument stands they as a people or religion don't want us in their country but they worship money so they some how or other have been allowed to host this competition, I for one will not be watching it, you however can do as you please
I've never watched a game of football in my life and that's unlikely to change
And I'm guesing that means despitebthe casual racism of claiming Britain 'cowtows' to Muslims, you can't offer a single example?I'm a live and let live person if I met a Muslim in the street I wouldn't know he was Muslim and wouldn't ask, if he treated me with respect and vice versa I would as I would anyone be friendly toward him, I do however not agree with the world Cup being held in Qatar and for the reasons stated, the Western world is not welcome in Muslim countries and yet its entertaining one of the biggest money making events in the world but hey ho it's there now
"exactly they can come to our country to live but they bring their values here with them and we cowtow to their needs lol"
I'll be honest not sure where that sits with live and let live...
What makes you say "the western world is not welcome in Western countries", I'm not sure I understand what you mean?of course you don't and you never will "Yes but in the interst of educating myself, maybe you can explain what you meant? | |||
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"I have zero respect for the 'values' of repressive dictatorships or religions so would choose not to visit countries where they were enforced. The World Cup obviously shouldn't have been awarded to Qatar. Totally agree. And no it is not reasonable. I cannot sit here and say homophobia/transphobia etc is reasonable in any situation no matter where. Exactly. Homophobia etc is not culture. Culture would be the poetry, the food and drink, the customs of drinking sweet tea or whatever in cafés etc. Not infringing human rights. And that applies to any country that prevents its citizens from enjoying their full rights, not just Qatar." That is a popular Western opinion but the concept of human rights is something we made and actually there is a lot of room for debate on whether this is a good idea - notably it obfuscates paths to making improvements by a spirit of demand - that doesn't buy you any affection from something who doesn't buy what you're selling - you have to appeal to self interest. | |||
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"Is it reasonable for Qatar to ask lgbtq visitors for the world Cup to respect their host countries values? " What values do they have to respect? | |||
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"Personally if i was a part of that movement I wouldn't even go there. Why go to a country where you're hated and could even be killed for the way you are? No thanks (wouldn't go there anyway tbf)" That movement? | |||
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"Is it reasonable for Qatar to ask lgbtq visitors for the world Cup to respect their host countries values? ............................ Yes it's reasonable. No it's not reasonable they were granted the tournament in the first place." THIS! C x | |||
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"Is it reasonable for Qatar to ask lgbtq visitors for the world Cup to respect their host countries values? What values do they have to respect?" To be fair, this is hard to answer because the person who said id didn't even mean really it, what they meant was "please don't get arrested and make England look bad on the telly around the world" | |||
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"Is it reasonable for Qatar to ask lgbtq visitors for the world Cup to respect their host countries values? What values do they have to respect?" I don't know precisely but I'm sure like any other country one might visit... A quick search of t'internet might give one a clue about how their culture is different and the dos and don'ts for a good safe visit. | |||
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"And yet they will he selling alcohol. Funny that." Qatar is not a alcohol free state. It's always sold alcohol in hotels in licensed venues | |||
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"Personally if i was a part of that movement I wouldn't even go there. Why go to a country where you're hated and could even be killed for the way you are? No thanks (wouldn't go there anyway tbf)" .............................. The more pertinent question is why host a prestigious world inclusive event in a country where certain communities are "hated" and "could even be killed for the way they are,? | |||
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"This is like asking do you expect visitors into your own home to respect the values within that home. "No values in this home  | |||
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"This is like asking do you expect visitors into your own home to respect the values within that home. "............................... Not quite, in this instance there's a commercial relationship between home and the people visiting it. | |||
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"Is it reasonable for Qatar to ask lgbtq visitors for the world Cup to respect their host countries values? " For many it’s reasonable to ask for some it’s unreasonable. If Boris had ever asked me to respect his values of lying, cheating, racism and sexism I’d say no , they are not values I’d ever respect no matter who asked or why | |||
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"Just to be provocative, in a sport where globally there are non or almost no openly gay professional footballers, is it really all that wrong that FIFA awarded the world Cup to a country who's views on homosexuality arguably reflect the sport as a whole (at least at a professional level)? Again it seems easy to criticise a Muslim country bit self reflection on the sport seems a little less easy" ............................... Isn't it about legitimacy though? Football's governing body haven't proscribed gay footballers. | |||
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"This is like asking do you expect visitors into your own home to respect the values within that home.
...............................
Not quite, in this instance there's a commercial relationship between home and the people visiting it. "Commercial interests or not they would still be expected to respect those values. | |||
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"Personally if i was a part of that movement I wouldn't even go there. Why go to a country where you're hated and could even be killed for the way you are? No thanks (wouldn't go there anyway tbf) .............................. The more pertinent question is why host a prestigious world inclusive event in a country where certain communities are "hated" and "could even be killed for the way they are,?" my guessing is money. Qatar is a very rich place | |||
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"Just to be provocative, in a sport where globally there are non or almost no openly gay professional footballers, is it really all that wrong that FIFA awarded the world Cup to a country who's views on homosexuality arguably reflect the sport as a whole (at least at a professional level)? Again it seems easy to criticise a Muslim country bit self reflection on the sport seems a little less easy ............................... Isn't it about legitimacy though? Football's governing body haven't proscribed gay footballers." I dint disagree, but homophobia in football is a lot bigger a problem than the LGBTQIA+ community bring told to be discrete and respect local laws fir a few weeks this winter. There's literally zero representation of the LGBTQIA+ community in football but that's the status quo and that's not okay | |||
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"Personally if i was a part of that movement I wouldn't even go there. Why go to a country where you're hated and could even be killed for the way you are? No thanks (wouldn't go there anyway tbf) .............................. The more pertinent question is why host a prestigious world inclusive event in a country where certain communities are "hated" and "could even be killed for the way they are,?" This isn’t to dispute your point, and not having a go at you, but i find the idea of football being described as “inclusive” laughable when this is the same sport where black players often get bananas thrown at them on pitch, female referees get viciously ridiculed and objectified, and any player that comes out as a sexual orientation that isn’t straight, almost immediately receives death threats. FIFA ultimately chase and follow the money, and couldn’t care less for what they consider to be distractions to their mission (like a country’s human rights record for instance) | |||
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"Nah they can get fucked " exactly | |||
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"Just to be provocative, in a sport where globally there are non or almost no openly gay professional footballers, is it really all that wrong that FIFA awarded the world Cup to a country who's views on homosexuality arguably reflect the sport as a whole (at least at a professional level)? Again it seems easy to criticise a Muslim country bit self reflection on the sport seems a little less easy ............................... Isn't it about legitimacy though? Football's governing body haven't proscribed gay footballers. I dint disagree, but homophobia in football is a lot bigger a problem than the LGBTQIA+ community bring told to be discrete and respect local laws fir a few weeks this winter. There's literally zero representation of the LGBTQIA+ community in football but that's the status quo and that's not okay " Agreed. But they wear rainbows and some take a knee and everything's progressing... Or is it? | |||
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"Just to be provocative, in a sport where globally there are non or almost no openly gay professional footballers, is it really all that wrong that FIFA awarded the world Cup to a country who's views on homosexuality arguably reflect the sport as a whole (at least at a professional level)? Again it seems easy to criticise a Muslim country bit self reflection on the sport seems a little less easy ............................... Isn't it about legitimacy though? Football's governing body haven't proscribed gay footballers. I dint disagree, but homophobia in football is a lot bigger a problem than the LGBTQIA+ community bring told to be discrete and respect local laws fir a few weeks this winter. There's literally zero representation of the LGBTQIA+ community in football but that's the status quo and that's not okay Agreed. But they wear rainbows and some take a knee and everything's progressing... Or is it? " Obviously taking the knee isn't doing anything to help the LGBTQIA+ community but I think the players committing to it is encouraging. Reaction from sone fans, the media, and even parts of the government suggest the progression is painfully slow. Rainbow laces is literally the bare minimum and feels like the worst sort of lip service. I guess they post something in social nedia around the time of Pride too  Empty, isolated gestures achive nothing if the culture of the sport dismiss them | |||
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"Once you enter a country you abide by their laws, doesn’t matter that you think they are a crock of shit or not. If you don’t wish to abide by their laws then don’t enter that country. I think a far bigger impact would be had by people just not attending, than turning up and then protesting. " ^^ this
It’s not rocket science | |||
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"Respecting culture? Yes. Respecting a total disregard for basic human rights? No." This! | |||
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"Has any one imagined what a stadium full of sober football fans would be like? Nope, me neither. " Pleasant? Enjoyable? | |||
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"If I were to visit a country with rather different values and laws, I would abide by those laws and not openly and demonstratively display my sexual preferences - but then I would not do it as a heterosexual person either. I have a choice to visit such a country. In an ideal world it would be good to see other cultures will respect the laws of the countries they are visiting.like GB for example lol" Absolutely | |||
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"Has any one imagined what a stadium full of sober football fans would be like? Nope, me neither. " Blissful | |||
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"Yes. We can't all be as multicultural diverse as the UK is, and to impose our ways into another country just because its acceptable on the UK is deeply disrespectful" Prejudice is absolutely wrong and not something you ignore on holiday ffs. | |||
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"Yes. We can't all be as multicultural diverse as the UK is, and to impose our ways into another country just because its acceptable on the UK is deeply disrespectful Prejudice is absolutely wrong and not something you ignore on holiday ffs." Of course it is. Blimey if we had issues with every countries prejudices nobody would go on holiday anywhere and would have a miserable time wherever they went. Nowhere is perfect. Breaking the laws because we demand everywhere has the same values as we do is arrogantly assuming we know best. | |||
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"This is like asking do you expect visitors into your own home to respect the values within that home.
...............................
Not quite, in this instance there's a commercial relationship between home and the people visiting it.
Commercial interests or not they would still be expected to respect those values. "...................... In which case as the provider of a service they might find themselves without customers, we're not talking about a vicar's tea party. | |||
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"Yes. We can't all be as multicultural diverse as the UK is, and to impose our ways into another country just because its acceptable on the UK is deeply disrespectful Prejudice is absolutely wrong and not something you ignore on holiday ffs." | |||
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"Is it reasonable for Qatar to ask lgbtq visitors for the world Cup to respect their host countries values? " As a traveller, I try my hardest to respect another country's laws, rules, culture and values. I'm a guest. When you are in your own home you do as you like. I think it is reasonable....if anything follow the lead of the locale people if you are worried about offending. I grew up in the Caribbean. You can't get on the government bus in a bikini top. I saw a woman try to get on the bus in a bikini top and all the other older ladies pulled out shirts and cloths from nowhere to help her cover up. Lol! Also in a tropical country, they have this ridiculous rule that you can't walk into a government building without sleeves......I just turn my beach wrap into a hijab/burqa then they can't say anything. I went hiking in Cornwall and forgot I was wearing a bikini top and I asked the bus driver if I needed to put on a shirt ( had on in my back pack). He said no....I think he was enjoying my chest view. Lol! I've gone to Notting Hill Carnival in a bikini top and nowt a Londoner batted an eyelid. | |||
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"Has anyone imagined what a stadium full of sober football fans would be like? Nope, me neither. Pleasant? Enjoyable? " Cackle. | |||
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"Is it reasonable for Qatar to ask lgbtq visitors for the world Cup to respect their host countries values? " Is it acceptable that The FIFA World Cup was awarded to a country that has poor human rights standards and doesn't fulfil FIFA's own guidance on discrimination and diversity? | |||
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"Is it reasonable for Qatar to ask lgbtq visitors for the world Cup to respect their host countries values? Is it acceptable that The FIFA World Cup was awarded to a country that has poor human rights standards and doesn't fulfil FIFA's own guidance on discrimination and diversity? " No. But that wasn't the question in the op. It's been awarded. It's happening. | |||
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"I'm using the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which is a pretty well accepted and tried & tested thing. I'm not going to respect a government that rides completely roughshod over it. I'm also not going to visit the country. What I DO is teach young people from such countries and within this, challenge their indoctrination and invite them to decide what they think is best. Most young people from such countries have very different views to that of the older people/government. I studied human rights at uni. The declaration is not actual law in many countries. Not signed, ratified and adopted and enforced. It's a nice sentiment and a guideline but not legally binding or enforceable by other countries.....unless you want a war...which serves no one. I come from a country where homosexuality is still criminalized although never enforced since the 80s....we cannot get the old guard to take it off the law books..we have to wait for them to die..before we can change it." Once again a perfectly sensible, empathetic and practical approach in a world where things sadly do not change overnight. Well said. | |||
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"Is it reasonable for Qatar to ask lgbtq visitors for the world Cup to respect their host countries values? Is it acceptable that The FIFA World Cup was awarded to a country that has poor human rights standards and doesn't fulfil FIFA's own guidance on discrimination and diversity? --- No. But that wasn't the question in the op. It's been awarded. It's happening. " That is true. It is probably prudent for anybody to stick to the rules in any country where the penalty for kissing in public can result in 6 months in prison. | |||
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"I do wonder how many of those that are condemning both Qatar and Fifa will still "support" the decision for it to be held there by making it a success through viewer numbers. Does watching football mean more to you than that good old morale fibre? For the vast majority my guess is yes. " If wales hadn’t had qualified then I would not bother but I don’t know when or if we are ever going to see them at a World Cup again  .. | |||
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"I don't think it's so much about respecting the values of that country I think the wording used by James cleverly was not ideal. They should never have been given the World Cup in the 1st place in fact any country where certain groups would be at risk just because of who they are should never be given a prestigious event like the World Cup. " Agree | |||
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"Yeah I suppose but they have deeply flawed moral compass" Agreed. It's not just gay people that need to be concerned even women in this country who are sexually assaulted are offten arrested. | |||
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"As a corollary. I wonder how open and welcoming football in the UK is to lgbtq folks who openly display their sexuality in our own country.? Does anybody have any insight.? " Not very | |||
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"I do wonder how many of those that are condemning both Qatar and Fifa will still "support" the decision for it to be held there by making it a success through viewer numbers. Does watching football mean more to you than that good old morale fibre? For the vast majority my guess is yes. If wales hadn’t had qualified then I would not bother but I don’t know when or if we are ever going to see them at a World Cup again .."Which is exactly my point | |||
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