Join us FREE, we're FREE to use
Web's largest swingers site since 2006.
Already registered?
Login here
Join us FREE, we're FREE to use
Web's largest swingers site since 2006.
Already registered?
Login here
 | Back to forum list |
| Back to Virus |
| Jump to newest |  |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
 | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Or is it a case of trying to lower the numbers so its less of an embarrassment to the government on just how shit a job they have done?" Bit of both I suspect | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Or is it a case of trying to lower the numbers so its less of an embarrassment to the government on just how shit a job they have done?" The figures could only ever go up in this scenario. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
 | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"There is no herd immunity - peak antibodies are 3 weeks after the virus is caught and many show no antibodies 7 weeks later. nearly 50% of a symptomatic patients who had covid had serious heart defects when scanned. It is dangerous out there guys - stay as safe as you can and don't listen to the buffoon that shakes hands with covid patients and ignores lockdown advice and has the highest death rate in Europe. the second wave will hit and this time we will be looking for a new pm one way or another - how about a union under the Scottish leadership or Wales?" Source? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The counting has been farcical all the way through this. Every department and their dog has been counting something different since day one." I'm not sure it's that bad. There are a number of sources of data. All numbers need to be properly understood. I would not expect a "perfect" counting system whatever that may even mean. But suspect a large part of the confusion is people don't take the time to read the caveats that are attached to them, or they are pushed out my media to support an Agenda. If you go to the ons website or gov they are described OK. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"There is no herd immunity - peak antibodies are 3 weeks after the virus is caught and many show no antibodies 7 weeks later. nearly 50% of a symptomatic patients who had covid had serious heart defects when scanned. It is dangerous out there guys - stay as safe as you can and don't listen to the buffoon that shakes hands with covid patients and ignores lockdown advice and has the highest death rate in Europe. the second wave will hit and this time we will be looking for a new pm one way or another - how about a union under the Scottish leadership or Wales?" A lot of sense there and then.... We already have a union with Wales and Scotland. There's another thread on here celebrating close contact from Oct... And just when is the second wave predicted? As much as we can point fingers at govt, we can all take responsibility for our own actions. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Or is it a case of trying to lower the numbers so its less of an embarrassment to the government on just how shit a job they have done?" I'm no expert but I am old enough to know that every single time the concervative party get in power they always come up with plans to calculate figures a different way for many items such as unemployment, money invested in the NHS and schools, how inflation is calculated and so on. Each time it always paints a much better picture than relality itself so no reason for them not to try and find a way to paint a picture of things being much more under control than they actually are. This and the fact that other country's work the figures out differently than to us so any gains they can make to put them in a better light they will always try and exploit. And this comes from a person that voted for them too so no axe to grind, just speaking my own opinion. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"There is no herd immunity - peak antibodies are 3 weeks after the virus is caught and many show no antibodies 7 weeks later. nearly 50% of a symptomatic patients who had covid had serious heart defects when scanned. It is dangerous out there guys - stay as safe as you can and don't listen to the buffoon that shakes hands with covid patients and ignores lockdown advice and has the highest death rate in Europe. the second wave will hit and this time we will be looking for a new pm one way or another - how about a union under the Scottish leadership or Wales?" Wouldn't listen to the government on this. We have been managing this crisis in the same way the US has in our home Boris Trump and Donald Johnson are just a fusion of the same entitled ideology. Trump is stopping the CDC from collecting data so he can suppress it, no doubt BJ is doing the exact same thing. Now on the information you gleaned about damage to Cardiac tissue, I'm going to need your source on that. My partner works in Cardiology and examines hearts every single day and so far that correlation has not been made. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"people dying is tragic in ANY circumstances, but for me this has been one big farce from the start, a 1000 things dont add up for the total lockdown weve had for me. end the lockdown now, theyll be no 2nd wave!! "People have been saying it for a long time a lockdown for a virus we now know as a 99.972% survival rate. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"There is no herd immunity - peak antibodies are 3 weeks after the virus is caught and many show no antibodies 7 weeks later. nearly 50% of a symptomatic patients who had covid had serious heart defects when scanned. It is dangerous out there guys - stay as safe as you can and don't listen to the buffoon that shakes hands with covid patients and ignores lockdown advice and has the highest death rate in Europe. the second wave will hit and this time we will be looking for a new pm one way or another - how about a union under the Scottish leadership or Wales? Source? " 50% haha really. Like the last says . Source  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"There is no herd immunity - peak antibodies are 3 weeks after the virus is caught and many show no antibodies 7 weeks later. nearly 50% of a symptomatic patients who had covid had serious heart defects when scanned. It is dangerous out there guys - stay as safe as you can and don't listen to the buffoon that shakes hands with covid patients and ignores lockdown advice and has the highest death rate in Europe. the second wave will hit and this time we will be looking for a new pm one way or another - how about a union under the Scottish leadership or Wales? Source? " I think I read this. However you have enough antibodies that you don't get as sick the second time of you catch it. But can still pass on. Or at least the chimps did. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Or is it a case of trying to lower the numbers so its less of an embarrassment to the government on just how shit a job they have done?"  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Or is it a case of trying to lower the numbers so its less of an embarrassment to the government on just how shit a job they have done?" | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"There is no herd immunity - peak antibodies are 3 weeks after the virus is caught and many show no antibodies 7 weeks later. nearly 50% of a symptomatic patients who had covid had serious heart defects when scanned. It is dangerous out there guys - stay as safe as you can and don't listen to the buffoon that shakes hands with covid patients and ignores lockdown advice and has the highest death rate in Europe. the second wave will hit and this time we will be looking for a new pm one way or another - how about a union under the Scottish leadership or Wales?" try reading stuff from JB Handley off guardian | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The ONS data still shows 60k additional deaths this year, since the outbreak in March. Directly, or indirectly, these have been caused as a result of the mismanagement of the COVID-19 pandemic." Additional deaths so far. X number of those people will have died anyway this year. It always seems worse when you have a lot of deaths in a short space of time rather than the equivalent number over a longer period. A bit like a plane crash which kills 200 in one go compared to 200 deaths due to road traffic accidents but spread out over a year. Only one of those events is newsworthy and garners more attention. I would expect excess deaths to be reduced by the end of the year and overall death rate to be lower for next year - barring another massive spike. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The ONS data still shows 60k additional deaths this year, since the outbreak in March. Directly, or indirectly, these have been caused as a result of the mismanagement of the COVID-19 pandemic. Additional deaths so far. X number of those people will have died anyway this year. It always seems worse when you have a lot of deaths in a short space of time rather than the equivalent number over a longer period. A bit like a plane crash which kills 200 in one go compared to 200 deaths due to road traffic accidents but spread out over a year. Only one of those events is newsworthy and garners more attention. I would expect excess deaths to be reduced by the end of the year and overall death rate to be lower for next year - barring another massive spike. " Now the ONS say the UK is running at about 300 fewer deaths per day compared to the 5 year average, in the middle of a pandemic. Unbelievable bullshit on top of bullshit. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"When I was a kid, maths was either right or wrong. Seems that nowadays, you start out with the answer that suits you and then twist the equation to equal it." That’s what happens when you mix politics with maths | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This is the kind of absolute farce anyone with a brain would have seen coming by putting Bojo and his crowd in power. If you voted for this. You get what you deserve.. while the rest of us suffer the absolute insult that Westminster is." Thats democracy for you | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The counting has been farcical all the way through this. Every department and their dog has been counting something different since day one." One of the reaons figures are so high is ae recrding ,we declare far more sp called covid related death than other countries. So typically British,we are doing better than many cynics want to think | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This is the kind of absolute farce anyone with a brain would have seen coming by putting Bojo and his crowd in power. If you voted for this. You get what you deserve.. while the rest of us suffer the absolute insult that Westminster is." Nobody votes for the virus and given the choices thank god Boris won. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This is the kind of absolute farce anyone with a brain would have seen coming by putting Bojo and his crowd in power. If you voted for this. You get what you deserve.. while the rest of us suffer the absolute insult that Westminster is.Nobody votes for the virus and given the choices thank god Boris won." What's the death rate standing at now? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The ONS data still shows 60k additional deaths this year, since the outbreak in March. Directly, or indirectly, these have been caused as a result of the mismanagement of the COVID-19 pandemic." I wouldn't rely on the ons to count the fingers on one hand, the other day they said 50 % of people were not wearing masks when in public, well can only say that the two places we have been in the last two weeks the figure would be less than 5%. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This is the kind of absolute farce anyone with a brain would have seen coming by putting Bojo and his crowd in power. If you voted for this. You get what you deserve.. while the rest of us suffer the absolute insult that Westminster is." I thought you'd got devolution with Nicola Sturgeon in control up in Scotland? How is Westminster involved? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This is the kind of absolute farce anyone with a brain would have seen coming by putting Bojo and his crowd in power. If you voted for this. You get what you deserve.. while the rest of us suffer the absolute insult that Westminster is. I thought you'd got devolution with Nicola Sturgeon in control up in Scotland? How is Westminster involved?" Possibly for dragging Scotland out of the EU against their will ? I'm not sure | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
""The UK health secretary, Matt Hancock, is ordering an urgent review of the daily Covid-19 death statistics produced by Public Health England, after it emerged they may include recovered former sufferers who could have died of other causes."" What penny drop are we meant to be realising? With the daily deaths there’s one certainty... a lot of Covid deaths haven’t made the figures, most estimate around an additional 15-20k especially from the care system in the early months. The seasonal averages strongly support that too. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"people dying is tragic in ANY circumstances, but for me this has been one big farce from the start, a 1000 things dont add up for the total lockdown weve had for me. end the lockdown now, theyll be no 2nd wave!! People have been saying it for a long time a lockdown for a tvirus we now know as a 99.972% survival rate." | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The ONS data still shows 60k additional deaths this year, since the outbreak in March. Directly, or indirectly, these have been caused as a result of the mismanagement of the COVID-19 pandemic. Additional deaths so far. X number of those people will have died anyway this year. It always seems worse when you have a lot of deaths in a short space of time rather than the equivalent number over a longer period. A bit like a plane crash which kills 200 in one go compared to 200 deaths due to road traffic accidents but spread out over a year. Only one of those events is newsworthy and garners more attention. I would expect excess deaths to be reduced by the end of the year and overall death rate to be lower for next year - barring another massive spike. Now the ONS say the UK is running at about 300 fewer deaths per day compared to the 5 year average, in the middle of a pandemic. Unbelievable bullshit on top of bullshit. " That's a very convenient number, 300. If that carries on for the rest of the year, that'll take care of 50000 or so of the extra deaths we've had this year so far... | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This is the kind of absolute farce anyone with a brain would have seen coming by putting Bojo and his crowd in power. If you voted for this. You get what you deserve.. while the rest of us suffer the absolute insult that Westminster is. I thought you'd got devolution with Nicola Sturgeon in control up in Scotland? How is Westminster involved?" I didn't say Scotland. I said this is what you get when you willfully allow an absolute moron into no10. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This is the kind of absolute farce anyone with a brain would have seen coming by putting Bojo and his crowd in power. If you voted for this. You get what you deserve.. while the rest of us suffer the absolute insult that Westminster is.Nobody votes for the virus and given the choices thank god Boris won." Thank god Boris won hahhahahahahaha. The man is a loon, liar, and thief. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"end the lockdown now, theyll be no 2nd wave!! "You wouldn't be saying that if you lived in Leicester. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"end the lockdown now, theyll be no 2nd wave!!
You wouldn't be saying that if you lived in Leicester."i would. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"people dying is tragic in ANY circumstances, but for me this has been one big farce from the start, a 1000 things dont add up for the total lockdown weve had for me. end the lockdown now, theyll be no 2nd wave!! People have been saying it for a long time a lockdown for a virus we now know as a 99.972% survival rate."99.972%...Have you been reading false facts? Seriously, before making such statements check your source. A quick google proves this false fact. Also, do the maths. 99.972% survival suggests that 99.972% live and 0.028% die. UK population is 66,650,000 (give or take) 10% = 6,650,000 1% = 665,000 0.1% = 66,500 See where I am going with this? We now need 0.28 of that figure... 18,620! This means that, for a 99.972% survival rate, every person in the UK would have had to have caught the virus and only 18,620 of them died. We passed the 18,620 figure mid april and the fake news that you're quoting appeared in a tweet on 24th April. All they've done is taken the number of deaths at that point taken that as a percentage of the UK population. Shocking that people present such nonsense and worse, people quote it. Just out of curiosity, are you a Tory voting Brexiter? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"people dying is tragic in ANY circumstances, but for me this has been one big farce from the start, a 1000 things dont add up for the total lockdown weve had for me. end the lockdown now, theyll be no 2nd wave!! People have been saying it for a long time a lockdown for a virus we now know as a 99.972% survival rate.
99.972%...Have you been reading false facts? Seriously, before making such statements check your source. A quick google proves this false fact.
Also, do the maths. 99.972% survival suggests that 99.972% live and 0.028% die.
UK population is 66,650,000 (give or take)
10% = 6,650,000
1% = 665,000
0.1% = 66,500
See where I am going with this? We now need 0.28 of that figure...
18,620!
This means that, for a 99.972% survival rate, every person in the UK would have had to have caught the virus and only 18,620 of them died.
We passed the 18,620 figure mid april and the fake news that you're quoting appeared in a tweet on 24th April. All they've done is taken the number of deaths at that point taken that as a percentage of the UK population. Shocking that people present such nonsense and worse, people quote it.
Just out of curiosity, are you a Tory voting Brexiter?
"Steve, I realise you are straight but for the purpose of this post I’m overlooking that and just marrying you! Very accurately put, bravo x | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"people dying is tragic in ANY circumstances, but for me this has been one big farce from the start, a 1000 things dont add up for the total lockdown weve had for me. end the lockdown now, theyll be no 2nd wave!! "1) You can catch this virus more than once. 2) In Hong Kong they are on the fifth variation of covid 19 making a vaccine harder to be effective. 3) While not being as big a killer as something like ebola it is VERY infectious. It is thought it is most infectious in the three day window before you have symptoms (if you have them). 4) Deaths are a small part of the damage caused by Covid 19. Blood clots are a common symptom of this virus to mention one. 5) The lock down slowed the progress of the virus to an exponential rate of infection now occurring in the USA. 6) Just wear a mask and use some of the problem solving skills you have learnt. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"people dying is tragic in ANY circumstances, but for me this has been one big farce from the start, a 1000 things dont add up for the total lockdown weve had for me. end the lockdown now, theyll be no 2nd wave!! People have been saying it for a long time a lockdown for a virus we now know as a 99.972% survival rate.
99.972%...Have you been reading false facts? Seriously, before making such statements check your source. A quick google proves this false fact.
Also, do the maths. 99.972% survival suggests that 99.972% live and 0.028% die.
UK population is 66,650,000 (give or take)
10% = 6,650,000
1% = 665,000
0.1% = 66,500
See where I am going with this? We now need 0.28 of that figure...
18,620!
This means that, for a 99.972% survival rate, every person in the UK would have had to have caught the virus and only 18,620 of them died.
We passed the 18,620 figure mid april and the fake news that you're quoting appeared in a tweet on 24th April. All they've done is taken the number of deaths at that point taken that as a percentage of the UK population. Shocking that people present such nonsense and worse, people quote it.
Just out of curiosity, are you a Tory voting Brexiter?
Steve, I realise you are straight but for the purpose of this post I’m overlooking that and just marrying you!
Very accurately put, bravo x"
lol..glad to hear your agree! | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"people dying is tragic in ANY circumstances, but for me this has been one big farce from the start, a 1000 things dont add up for the total lockdown weve had for me. end the lockdown now, theyll be no 2nd wave!! People have been saying it for a long time a lockdown for a virus we now know as a 99.972% survival rate.
99.972%...Have you been reading false facts? Seriously, before making such statements check your source. A quick google proves this false fact.
Also, do the maths. 99.972% survival suggests that 99.972% live and 0.028% die.
UK population is 66,650,000 (give or take)
10% = 6,650,000
1% = 665,000
0.1% = 66,500
See where I am going with this? We now need 0.28 of that figure...
18,620!
This means that, for a 99.972% survival rate, every person in the UK would have had to have caught the virus and only 18,620 of them died.
We passed the 18,620 figure mid april and the fake news that you're quoting appeared in a tweet on 24th April. All they've done is taken the number of deaths at that point taken that as a percentage of the UK population. Shocking that people present such nonsense and worse, people quote it.
Just out of curiosity, are you a Tory voting Brexiter?
Steve, I realise you are straight but for the purpose of this post I’m overlooking that and just marrying you!
Very accurately put, bravo x
lol..glad to hear your agree!"And of course any reasoned person doubting your exceptional math skills can read: https://fullfact.org/online/survival-rate-figures/ And recognise the UK has a death rate of 14% of all confirmed cases currently... a bit different from a 99.972% survival rate. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"people dying is tragic in ANY circumstances, but for me this has been one big farce from the start, a 1000 things dont add up for the total lockdown weve had for me. end the lockdown now, theyll be no 2nd wave!!
1) You can catch this virus more than once.
2) In Hong Kong they are on the fifth variation of covid 19 making a vaccine harder to be effective.
3) While not being as big a killer as something like ebola it is VERY infectious. It is thought it is most infectious in the three day window before you have symptoms (if you have them).
4) Deaths are a small part of the damage caused by Covid 19. Blood clots are a common symptom of this virus to mention one.
5) The lock down slowed the progress of the virus to an exponential rate of infection now occurring in the USA.
6) Just wear a mask and use some of the problem solving skills you have learnt.
"Source for 1st 2 points please... | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52446965 " Which confirms your first point isn’t accurate? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Boni MF, Lemey P, Jiang X, et al. Evolutionary origins of the SARS-CoV-2 sarbecovirus lineage responsible for the COVID-19 pandemic. bioRxiv. 2020 Mar. DOI: 10.1101/2020.03.30.015008. Wang H, Pipes L, Nielsen R. Synonymous mutations and the molecular evolution of SARS-Cov-2 origins. bioRxiv. 2020 Apr. DOI: 10.1101/2020.04.20.052019. Tang X, Wu C, Li X, et al. On the origin and continuing evolution of SARS-CoV-2. National Science Review. 2020 Apr. DOI: 10.1093/nsr/nwaa036. MacLean OA, Orton RJ, Singer JB, Robertson DL. No evidence for distinct types in the evolution of SARS-CoV-2. Virus Evolution. 2020 May. DOI: 10.1093/ve/veaa034. Korber B, Fischer W, Gnanakaran S, et al. Spike mutation pipeline reveals the emergence of a more transmissible form of SARS-CoV-2. bioRxiv. 2020 Apr. DOI: 10.1101/2020.04.29.069054. van Dorp L, Richard D, Tan CC, et al. No evidence for increased transmissibility from recurrent mutations in SARS-CoV-2. bioRxiv. 2020 May. DOI: 10.1101/2020.05.21.108506." Have you even read any if that? Where does any if those sources mention hong Kong or catching it twice. Also, the 4th (MacLean) questions the 3rd (Tang)... And as already pointed out by someone else, your BBC article doesn't support your comment. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The penny has dropped that how the health system has been treated over 10 years, immigrants working here have been pushed away and treated with contempt forcing many to leave, plus this year's fiasco where next to nothing has been done well, apart from spending £billions of taxpayers money on contracts with people known to politicians, or companies that politicians work for, without contracts being publicly open for tender, is a world beating shambles. It's no surprise that the changes imposed on the health system have made things chaotic and less fit for purpose, with data that's patchy. Wind things down, cut real-time funding, impose reorganisations over and over, so that you get a system increasingly having bits of it delivered for private company profits, and you get a frankensteins monster, not that the millionaires in power really care. Kick the can of any review far down the road, when you'll be long gone and the oinks won't remember the details, as long as people get a 3 word slogan to repeat as a mantra. Break - Bleed - Bollocks The numbers are messy but the key point is what's being done to an essential service and the prospects for millions of people's lives " | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"people dying is tragic in ANY circumstances, but for me this has been one big farce from the start, a 1000 things dont add up for the total lockdown weve had for me. end the lockdown now, theyll be no 2nd wave!!
1) You can catch this virus more than once.
2) In Hong Kong they are on the fifth variation of covid 19 making a vaccine harder to be effective.
3) While not being as big a killer as something like ebola it is VERY infectious. It is thought it is most infectious in the three day window before you have symptoms (if you have them).
4) Deaths are a small part of the damage caused by Covid 19. Blood clots are a common symptom of this virus to mention one.
5) The lock down slowed the progress of the virus to an exponential rate of infection now occurring in the USA.
6) Just wear a mask and use some of the problem solving skills you have learnt.
"Who has caught it twice? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"people dying is tragic in ANY circumstances" No it's not. Life is death. Death is life. Unavoidable. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one! "Could be some caused by not seeking treatment. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one!
Could be some caused by not seeking treatment. "So 65,000 extra people have died because they didn’t seek treatment? These are deaths, over and above what we would normally expect in this country. All the ‘normal’ deaths still occurred in this period, yet we have a spike of 65,000 additional deaths. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"people dying is tragic in ANY circumstances, but for me this has been one big farce from the start, a 1000 things dont add up for the total lockdown weve had for me. end the lockdown now, theyll be no 2nd wave!!
1) You can catch this virus more than once.
2) In Hong Kong they are on the fifth variation of covid 19 making a vaccine harder to be effective.
3) While not being as big a killer as something like ebola it is VERY infectious. It is thought it is most infectious in the three day window before you have symptoms (if you have them).
4) Deaths are a small part of the damage caused by Covid 19. Blood clots are a common symptom of this virus to mention one.
5) The lock down slowed the progress of the virus to an exponential rate of infection now occurring in the USA.
6) Just wear a mask and use some of the problem solving skills you have learnt.
"no thanks. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"people dying is tragic in ANY circumstances, but for me this has been one big farce from the start, a 1000 things dont add up for the total lockdown weve had for me. end the lockdown now, theyll be no 2nd wave!!
1) You can catch this virus more than once.
2) In Hong Kong they are on the fifth variation of covid 19 making a vaccine harder to be effective.
3) While not being as big a killer as something like ebola it is VERY infectious. It is thought it is most infectious in the three day window before you have symptoms (if you have them).
4) Deaths are a small part of the damage caused by Covid 19. Blood clots are a common symptom of this virus to mention one.
5) The lock down slowed the progress of the virus to an exponential rate of infection now occurring in the USA.
6) Just wear a mask and use some of the problem solving skills you have learnt.
Who has caught it twice?"i wouldn't bother honestly | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one!
Could be some caused by not seeking treatment.
So 65,000 extra people have died because they didn’t seek treatment? These are deaths, over and above what we would normally expect in this country. All the ‘normal’ deaths still occurred in this period, yet we have a spike of 65,000 additional deaths. "Well, 45,000 of those excess deaths are due to covid. This leaves 20,000 for which there is a myriad of possible causes. Such as- people not recieving the treatment they need (cancer patients, people having a heart attack but convincing themselves its something else to avoid hospital, ambulance staff being too busy to get to patients quickly enough to save their life etc). The isolation could have caused many suicides Elderly avoiding the hospitals and succumbing to other infections. Diy accidents through everyone stuck at home wanting to get jobs done. Etc etc. Last point, though by no means insignificant. - the excess death figure is calculated from an 'average' number. The very nature of averaged means that there must have been a high figure, and a low. We could have had an extra 20,000 this year even if covid didn't exist. Of course we could also been in a low year for (normal) deaths meaning that covid deaths are even higher than recorded but this just serves to confirm that using excess deaths figures is pointless without having the complete data set. In isolation it is just a meaningless number. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one! "Absolutely... also remembering that accidental deaths will have been at an all time low during this due to lockdown | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"people dying is tragic in ANY circumstances, but for me this has been one big farce from the start, a 1000 things dont add up for the total lockdown weve had for me. end the lockdown now, theyll be no 2nd wave!! People have been saying it for a long time a lockdown for a virus we now know as a 99.972% survival rate.
99.972%...Have you been reading false facts? Seriously, before making such statements check your source. A quick google proves this false fact.
Also, do the maths. 99.972% survival suggests that 99.972% live and 0.028% die.
UK population is 66,650,000 (give or take)
10% = 6,650,000
1% = 665,000
0.1% = 66,500
See where I am going with this? We now need 0.28 of that figure...
18,620!
This means that, for a 99.972% survival rate, every person in the UK would have had to have caught the virus and only 18,620 of them died.
We passed the 18,620 figure mid april and the fake news that you're quoting appeared in a tweet on 24th April. All they've done is taken the number of deaths at that point taken that as a percentage of the UK population. Shocking that people present such nonsense and worse, people quote it.
Just out of curiosity, are you a Tory voting Brexiter?
Steve, I realise you are straight but for the purpose of this post I’m overlooking that and just marrying you!
Very accurately put, bravo x
lol..glad to hear your agree!
And of course any reasoned person doubting your exceptional math skills can read:
https://fullfact.org/online/survival-rate-figures/
And recognise the UK has a death rate of 14% of all confirmed cases currently... a bit different from a 99.972% survival rate."“...And recognise the UK has a death rate of 14% of all confirmed cases currently... a bit different from a 99.972% survival rate...” | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one!
Absolutely... also remembering that accidental deaths will have been at an all time low during this due to lockdown"That’s true, things like road accidents would be a lot less due to lockdown. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one!
Could be some caused by not seeking treatment.
So 65,000 extra people have died because they didn’t seek treatment? These are deaths, over and above what we would normally expect in this country. All the ‘normal’ deaths still occurred in this period, yet we have a spike of 65,000 additional deaths.
Well, 45,000 of those excess deaths are due to covid. This leaves 20,000 for which there is a myriad of possible causes. Such as-
people not recieving the treatment they need (cancer patients, people having a heart attack but convincing themselves its something else to avoid hospital, ambulance staff being too busy to get to patients quickly enough to save their life etc).
The isolation could have caused many suicides
Elderly avoiding the hospitals and succumbing to other infections.
Diy accidents through everyone stuck at home wanting to get jobs done.
Etc etc.
Last point, though by no means insignificant. - the excess death figure is calculated from an 'average' number. The very nature of averaged means that there must have been a high figure, and a low. We could have had an extra 20,000 this year even if covid didn't exist.
Of course we could also been in a low year for (normal) deaths meaning that covid deaths are even higher than recorded but this just serves to confirm that using excess deaths figures is pointless without having the complete data set. In isolation it is just a meaningless number."That’s a very hopeful outlook. it’s well documented that Covid 19 deaths in the care homes weren’t recorded for the first few months of the pandemic. If you worked in any hospital in the UK you would also see that the registering of deaths as Covid-19 isn’t hugely accurate to the reality. There’s a number of patients who aren’t recorded as C19 who in reality are, whether that be not tested prior to death or swabbed clear post infection but still die due to the damage the virus has done. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one!
Absolutely... also remembering that accidental deaths will have been at an all time low during this due to lockdown"How do you account for the number of excess deaths for the last few weeks being less than for the same time 5 year average? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"well, ive been saying this right from the beginning, how this has been a farce a cover up, and i was accused of being a tin foil hat wearer. One member on here said that if i approached him without a mask on he would punch my lights out So what has changed here folks???" Only thing that has changed is your lights were not punched out, otherwise you won’t be here asking this question | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one!
Could be some caused by not seeking treatment.
So 65,000 extra people have died because they didn’t seek treatment? These are deaths, over and above what we would normally expect in this country. All the ‘normal’ deaths still occurred in this period, yet we have a spike of 65,000 additional deaths.
Well, 45,000 of those excess deaths are due to covid. This leaves 20,000 for which there is a myriad of possible causes. Such as-
people not recieving the treatment they need (cancer patients, people having a heart attack but convincing themselves its something else to avoid hospital, ambulance staff being too busy to get to patients quickly enough to save their life etc).
The isolation could have caused many suicides
Elderly avoiding the hospitals and succumbing to other infections.
Diy accidents through everyone stuck at home wanting to get jobs done.
Etc etc.
Last point, though by no means insignificant. - the excess death figure is calculated from an 'average' number. The very nature of averaged means that there must have been a high figure, and a low. We could have had an extra 20,000 this year even if covid didn't exist.
Of course we could also been in a low year for (normal) deaths meaning that covid deaths are even higher than recorded but this just serves to confirm that using excess deaths figures is pointless without having the complete data set. In isolation it is just a meaningless number.
That’s a very hopeful outlook. it’s well documented that Covid 19 deaths in the care homes weren’t recorded for the first few months of the pandemic. If you worked in any hospital in the UK you would also see that the registering of deaths as Covid-19 isn’t hugely accurate to the reality. There’s a number of patients who aren’t recorded as C19 who in reality are, whether that be not tested prior to death or swabbed clear post infection but still die due to the damage the virus has done."Its not hopeful, its factual and not supporting/implying a particular causation. I am merely pointing out that using statistics without a complete understanding and consideration of the relevant data is meaningless. Trying to use it as definitive proof is naive, possibly even deceptive. I could easily take a 'fact' or statistic to disprove any of your claims but it would just be point scoring and have no real relevance. Ie - it is well documented that people that havent died of covid have been recorded as dying from it therefore covid is a con. The 'fact' is true, the conclusion isn't. Exactly the same as the other facts and statistics being rolled out to support or disprove one side or the other. The conclusions drawn from them are nothing more than assumption. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Did you hear about the American they counted as a Corona death who died in a motorcycle accident..(RIP brother). They couldn't rule out that having Corona didn't cause him to have the accident... "a friend's dad battled cancer for 18mths, sadly lost his battle and they tried to put cause of death as 'Covid' its a absolute farce!! | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Did you hear about the American they counted as a Corona death who died in a motorcycle accident..(RIP brother). They couldn't rule out that having Corona didn't cause him to have the accident... "***************************** There was also the story of the poor young girl thrown off her horse and killed, her sad death was also reported as 'covid linked'. Eva  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one!
Could be some caused by not seeking treatment.
So 65,000 extra people have died because they didn’t seek treatment? These are deaths, over and above what we would normally expect in this country. All the ‘normal’ deaths still occurred in this period, yet we have a spike of 65,000 additional deaths.
Well, 45,000 of those excess deaths are due to covid. This leaves 20,000 for which there is a myriad of possible causes. Such as-
people not recieving the treatment they need (cancer patients, people having a heart attack but convincing themselves its something else to avoid hospital, ambulance staff being too busy to get to patients quickly enough to save their life etc).
The isolation could have caused many suicides
Elderly avoiding the hospitals and succumbing to other infections.
Diy accidents through everyone stuck at home wanting to get jobs done.
Etc etc.
Last point, though by no means insignificant. - the excess death figure is calculated from an 'average' number. The very nature of averaged means that there must have been a high figure, and a low. We could have had an extra 20,000 this year even if covid didn't exist.
Of course we could also been in a low year for (normal) deaths meaning that covid deaths are even higher than recorded but this just serves to confirm that using excess deaths figures is pointless without having the complete data set. In isolation it is just a meaningless number.
That’s a very hopeful outlook. it’s well documented that Covid 19 deaths in the care homes weren’t recorded for the first few months of the pandemic. If you worked in any hospital in the UK you would also see that the registering of deaths as Covid-19 isn’t hugely accurate to the reality. There’s a number of patients who aren’t recorded as C19 who in reality are, whether that be not tested prior to death or swabbed clear post infection but still die due to the damage the virus has done.
Its not hopeful, its factual and not supporting/implying a particular causation.
I am merely pointing out that using statistics without a complete understanding and consideration of the relevant data is meaningless.
Trying to use it as definitive proof is naive, possibly even deceptive.
I could easily take a 'fact' or statistic to disprove any of your claims but it would just be point scoring and have no real relevance. Ie - it is well documented that people that havent died of covid have been recorded as dying from it therefore covid is a con.
The 'fact' is true, the conclusion isn't. Exactly the same as the other facts and statistics being rolled out to support or disprove one side or the other. The conclusions drawn from them are nothing more than assumption."That’s a very long winded statement to summarise the fact we all know that is statistics can always be presented in a number of ways... The point I make is simple, if you work in any of the NHS trusts or indeed the care system you are aware the reality far exceeds the ‘recorded Covid-19 deaths’. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"well, ive been saying this right from the beginning, how this has been a farce a cover up, and i was accused of being a tin foil hat wearer. One member on here said that if i approached him without a mask on he would punch my lights out So what has changed here folks???" You will find that alot off people on here are keyboard warriors and wouldnt say a thing to you in real life | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one!
Could be some caused by not seeking treatment.
So 65,000 extra people have died because they didn’t seek treatment? These are deaths, over and above what we would normally expect in this country. All the ‘normal’ deaths still occurred in this period, yet we have a spike of 65,000 additional deaths.
Well, 45,000 of those excess deaths are due to covid. This leaves 20,000 for which there is a myriad of possible causes. Such as-
people not recieving the treatment they need (cancer patients, people having a heart attack but convincing themselves its something else to avoid hospital, ambulance staff being too busy to get to patients quickly enough to save their life etc).
The isolation could have caused many suicides
Elderly avoiding the hospitals and succumbing to other infections.
Diy accidents through everyone stuck at home wanting to get jobs done.
Etc etc.
Last point, though by no means insignificant. - the excess death figure is calculated from an 'average' number. The very nature of averaged means that there must have been a high figure, and a low. We could have had an extra 20,000 this year even if covid didn't exist.
Of course we could also been in a low year for (normal) deaths meaning that covid deaths are even higher than recorded but this just serves to confirm that using excess deaths figures is pointless without having the complete data set. In isolation it is just a meaningless number.
That’s a very hopeful outlook. it’s well documented that Covid 19 deaths in the care homes weren’t recorded for the first few months of the pandemic. If you worked in any hospital in the UK you would also see that the registering of deaths as Covid-19 isn’t hugely accurate to the reality. There’s a number of patients who aren’t recorded as C19 who in reality are, whether that be not tested prior to death or swabbed clear post infection but still die due to the damage the virus has done.
Its not hopeful, its factual and not supporting/implying a particular causation.
I am merely pointing out that using statistics without a complete understanding and consideration of the relevant data is meaningless.
Trying to use it as definitive proof is naive, possibly even deceptive.
I could easily take a 'fact' or statistic to disprove any of your claims but it would just be point scoring and have no real relevance. Ie - it is well documented that people that havent died of covid have been recorded as dying from it therefore covid is a con.
The 'fact' is true, the conclusion isn't. Exactly the same as the other facts and statistics being rolled out to support or disprove one side or the other. The conclusions drawn from them are nothing more than assumption.
That’s a very long winded statement to summarise the fact we all know that is statistics can always be presented in a number of ways...
The point I make is simple, if you work in any of the NHS trusts or indeed the care system you are aware the reality far exceeds the ‘recorded Covid-19 deaths’.
"Unless you have been in every hospital and tallied every figure your 'point' is nothing more than the assumptions I refered to. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Did you hear about the American they counted as a Corona death who died in a motorcycle accident..(RIP brother). They couldn't rule out that having Corona didn't cause him to have the accident...
*****************************
There was also the story of the poor young girl thrown off her horse and killed, her sad death was also reported as 'covid linked'.
Eva "For every one of these ‘stories’, we have the fact that 65,000 extra deaths occurred. So what was the cause if not Covid 19? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Did you hear about the American they counted as a Corona death who died in a motorcycle accident..(RIP brother). They couldn't rule out that having Corona didn't cause him to have the accident...
*****************************
There was also the story of the poor young girl thrown off her horse and killed, her sad death was also reported as 'covid linked'.
Eva
For every one of these ‘stories’, we have the fact that 65,000 extra deaths occurred. So what was the cause if not Covid 19?"dying of covid is 1000% dying WITH covid. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Did you hear about the American they counted as a Corona death who died in a motorcycle accident..(RIP brother). They couldn't rule out that having Corona didn't cause him to have the accident...
*****************************
There was also the story of the poor young girl thrown off her horse and killed, her sad death was also reported as 'covid linked'.
Eva
For every one of these ‘stories’, we have the fact that 65,000 extra deaths occurred. So what was the cause if not Covid 19?
dying of covid is 1000% dying WITH covid. "*typo 1000% DIFFERENT than dying with covid | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one!
Could be some caused by not seeking treatment.
So 65,000 extra people have died because they didn’t seek treatment? These are deaths, over and above what we would normally expect in this country. All the ‘normal’ deaths still occurred in this period, yet we have a spike of 65,000 additional deaths.
Well, 45,000 of those excess deaths are due to covid. This leaves 20,000 for which there is a myriad of possible causes. Such as-
people not recieving the treatment they need (cancer patients, people having a heart attack but convincing themselves its something else to avoid hospital, ambulance staff being too busy to get to patients quickly enough to save their life etc).
The isolation could have caused many suicides
Elderly avoiding the hospitals and succumbing to other infections.
Diy accidents through everyone stuck at home wanting to get jobs done.
Etc etc.
Last point, though by no means insignificant. - the excess death figure is calculated from an 'average' number. The very nature of averaged means that there must have been a high figure, and a low. We could have had an extra 20,000 this year even if covid didn't exist.
Of course we could also been in a low year for (normal) deaths meaning that covid deaths are even higher than recorded but this just serves to confirm that using excess deaths figures is pointless without having the complete data set. In isolation it is just a meaningless number.
That’s a very hopeful outlook. it’s well documented that Covid 19 deaths in the care homes weren’t recorded for the first few months of the pandemic. If you worked in any hospital in the UK you would also see that the registering of deaths as Covid-19 isn’t hugely accurate to the reality. There’s a number of patients who aren’t recorded as C19 who in reality are, whether that be not tested prior to death or swabbed clear post infection but still die due to the damage the virus has done.
Its not hopeful, its factual and not supporting/implying a particular causation.
I am merely pointing out that using statistics without a complete understanding and consideration of the relevant data is meaningless.
Trying to use it as definitive proof is naive, possibly even deceptive.
I could easily take a 'fact' or statistic to disprove any of your claims but it would just be point scoring and have no real relevance. Ie - it is well documented that people that havent died of covid have been recorded as dying from it therefore covid is a con.
The 'fact' is true, the conclusion isn't. Exactly the same as the other facts and statistics being rolled out to support or disprove one side or the other. The conclusions drawn from them are nothing more than assumption.
That’s a very long winded statement to summarise the fact we all know that is statistics can always be presented in a number of ways...
The point I make is simple, if you work in any of the NHS trusts or indeed the care system you are aware the reality far exceeds the ‘recorded Covid-19 deaths’.
Unless you have been in every hospital and tallied every figure your 'point' is nothing more than the assumptions I refered to. "If we aren't being told the truth surely assumptions is the only thing we can make? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Did you hear about the American they counted as a Corona death who died in a motorcycle accident..(RIP brother). They couldn't rule out that having Corona didn't cause him to have the accident...
*****************************
There was also the story of the poor young girl thrown off her horse and killed, her sad death was also reported as 'covid linked'.
Eva
For every one of these ‘stories’, we have the fact that 65,000 extra deaths occurred. So what was the cause if not Covid 19?"I slreadu addressed your point turther up. 45,000 of those deaths are accouted for by covid. The remaining 20,000 could be due to numerous other reasons than covid. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one!
Could be some caused by not seeking treatment.
So 65,000 extra people have died because they didn’t seek treatment? These are deaths, over and above what we would normally expect in this country. All the ‘normal’ deaths still occurred in this period, yet we have a spike of 65,000 additional deaths.
Well, 45,000 of those excess deaths are due to covid. This leaves 20,000 for which there is a myriad of possible causes. Such as-
people not recieving the treatment they need (cancer patients, people having a heart attack but convincing themselves its something else to avoid hospital, ambulance staff being too busy to get to patients quickly enough to save their life etc).
The isolation could have caused many suicides
Elderly avoiding the hospitals and succumbing to other infections.
Diy accidents through everyone stuck at home wanting to get jobs done.
Etc etc.
Last point, though by no means insignificant. - the excess death figure is calculated from an 'average' number. The very nature of averaged means that there must have been a high figure, and a low. We could have had an extra 20,000 this year even if covid didn't exist.
Of course we could also been in a low year for (normal) deaths meaning that covid deaths are even higher than recorded but this just serves to confirm that using excess deaths figures is pointless without having the complete data set. In isolation it is just a meaningless number.
That’s a very hopeful outlook. it’s well documented that Covid 19 deaths in the care homes weren’t recorded for the first few months of the pandemic. If you worked in any hospital in the UK you would also see that the registering of deaths as Covid-19 isn’t hugely accurate to the reality. There’s a number of patients who aren’t recorded as C19 who in reality are, whether that be not tested prior to death or swabbed clear post infection but still die due to the damage the virus has done.
Its not hopeful, its factual and not supporting/implying a particular causation.
I am merely pointing out that using statistics without a complete understanding and consideration of the relevant data is meaningless.
Trying to use it as definitive proof is naive, possibly even deceptive.
I could easily take a 'fact' or statistic to disprove any of your claims but it would just be point scoring and have no real relevance. Ie - it is well documented that people that havent died of covid have been recorded as dying from it therefore covid is a con.
The 'fact' is true, the conclusion isn't. Exactly the same as the other facts and statistics being rolled out to support or disprove one side or the other. The conclusions drawn from them are nothing more than assumption.
That’s a very long winded statement to summarise the fact we all know that is statistics can always be presented in a number of ways...
The point I make is simple, if you work in any of the NHS trusts or indeed the care system you are aware the reality far exceeds the ‘recorded Covid-19 deaths’.
Unless you have been in every hospital and tallied every figure your 'point' is nothing more than the assumptions I refered to.
If we aren't being told the truth surely assumptions is the only thing we can make?"Not at all, the rational response is to realise that you dont have the info to make a judgement, let alone purvey your opinion as fact. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Did you hear about the American they counted as a Corona death who died in a motorcycle accident..(RIP brother). They couldn't rule out that having Corona didn't cause him to have the accident...
*****************************
There was also the story of the poor young girl thrown off her horse and killed, her sad death was also reported as 'covid linked'.
Eva
For every one of these ‘stories’, we have the fact that 65,000 extra deaths occurred. So what was the cause if not Covid 19?
I slreadu addressed your point turther up. 45,000 of those deaths are accouted for by covid. The remaining 20,000 could be due to numerous other reasons than covid."Gonna hazard a guess at what that might be? Was it a giant comet, maybe a massive oil refinery explosion, maybe 40 Jumbo jets crashing into each other? Come on, oh maybe it was green aliens? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Did you hear about the American they counted as a Corona death who died in a motorcycle accident..(RIP brother). They couldn't rule out that having Corona didn't cause him to have the accident...
*****************************
There was also the story of the poor young girl thrown off her horse and killed, her sad death was also reported as 'covid linked'.
Eva
For every one of these ‘stories’, we have the fact that 65,000 extra deaths occurred. So what was the cause if not Covid 19?
I slreadu addressed your point turther up. 45,000 of those deaths are accouted for by covid. The remaining 20,000 could be due to numerous other reasons than covid.
Gonna hazard a guess at what that might be? Was it a giant comet, maybe a massive oil refinery explosion, maybe 40 Jumbo jets crashing into each other? Come on, oh maybe it was green aliens? "its a shame honestly ! | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Fact 65k more people died this year than same time last year There just fiddling figures" Fact, it is not comparing it to last year. It is compared to a 5 year average. The actual yearly totals could be vastly higher, or lower than average. Thats how averages work.. There are past years with a higher than average number and that was before covid was a thing. What caused those years to be higher and whats not to say that the same cause isnt responsible for the higher number this year? (Beyond the ones we know to be caused by covid) | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one!
Absolutely... also remembering that accidental deaths will have been at an all time low during this due to lockdown
How do you account for the number of excess deaths for the last few weeks being less than for the same time 5 year average?
"Probably because some of the people who have died due to COVID would have died this year anyway - just at a later date and more spread out. COVID has compressed a lot of deaths into a shorter time frame. You have to wait for the excess. deaths at the end of the year for the whole year to get a more accurate feel for the COVID death. toll. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one!
Absolutely... also remembering that accidental deaths will have been at an all time low during this due to lockdown
How do you account for the number of excess deaths for the last few weeks being less than for the same time 5 year average?
Probably because some of the people who have died due to COVID would have died this year anyway - just at a later date and more spread out.
COVID has compressed a lot of deaths into a shorter time frame.
You have to wait for the excess. deaths at the end of the year for the whole year to get a more accurate feel for the COVID death. toll. "if its covid thats killed them and not died of something else but covid put on their death certificates | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Did you hear about the American they counted as a Corona death who died in a motorcycle accident..(RIP brother). They couldn't rule out that having Corona didn't cause him to have the accident...
*****************************
There was also the story of the poor young girl thrown off her horse and killed, her sad death was also reported as 'covid linked'.
Eva
For every one of these ‘stories’, we have the fact that 65,000 extra deaths occurred. So what was the cause if not Covid 19?
I slreadu addressed your point turther up. 45,000 of those deaths are accouted for by covid. The remaining 20,000 could be due to numerous other reasons than covid.
Gonna hazard a guess at what that might be? Was it a giant comet, maybe a massive oil refinery explosion, maybe 40 Jumbo jets crashing into each other? Come on, oh maybe it was green aliens? "Again, i addressed this in my original response. Ultimately your conclusion that the excess deaths (beyond those we know to have been due to covid) are hidden covid deaths is nothing more than a guess. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Did you hear about the American they counted as a Corona death who died in a motorcycle accident..(RIP brother). They couldn't rule out that having Corona didn't cause him to have the accident...
*****************************
There was also the story of the poor young girl thrown off her horse and killed, her sad death was also reported as 'covid linked'.
Eva
For every one of these ‘stories’, we have the fact that 65,000 extra deaths occurred. So what was the cause if not Covid 19?
I slreadu addressed your point turther up. 45,000 of those deaths are accouted for by covid. The remaining 20,000 could be due to numerous other reasons than covid.""...The remaining 20,000 could be..." And you think the remaining 20,000 is just to do with DIY accidents and the other stuff you mentioned? All what you've said is just an *assumption*. Something just doesn't seem right with what we are being told. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Did you hear about the American they counted as a Corona death who died in a motorcycle accident..(RIP brother). They couldn't rule out that having Corona didn't cause him to have the accident...
*****************************
There was also the story of the poor young girl thrown off her horse and killed, her sad death was also reported as 'covid linked'.
Eva
For every one of these ‘stories’, we have the fact that 65,000 extra deaths occurred. So what was the cause if not Covid 19?
I slreadu addressed your point turther up. 45,000 of those deaths are accouted for by covid. The remaining 20,000 could be due to numerous other reasons than covid.
"...The remaining 20,000 could be..."
And you think the remaining 20,000 is just to do with DIY accidents and the other stuff you mentioned?
All what you've said is just an *assumption*.
Something just doesn't seem right with what we are being told."It is an assumption, the difference is i am not portraying it as fact. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Did you hear about the American they counted as a Corona death who died in a motorcycle accident..(RIP brother). They couldn't rule out that having Corona didn't cause him to have the accident...
*****************************
There was also the story of the poor young girl thrown off her horse and killed, her sad death was also reported as 'covid linked'.
Eva
For every one of these ‘stories’, we have the fact that 65,000 extra deaths occurred. So what was the cause if not Covid 19?
I slreadu addressed your point turther up. 45,000 of those deaths are accouted for by covid. The remaining 20,000 could be due to numerous other reasons than covid.
"...The remaining 20,000 could be..."
And you think the remaining 20,000 is just to do with DIY accidents and the other stuff you mentioned?
All what you've said is just an *assumption*.
Something just doesn't seem right with what we are being told.
It is an assumption, the difference is i am not portraying it as fact.""...the difference is i am not portraying it as fact.." Neither am I, and the same applies to some of the other posts on here, some people are only giving their opinions on what they think. We may never get to know the truth. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The figures may not be accurate but taken together they indicate a trend. If we get no figures how can we make our own assessment of a trend? " well heres a point, on the figures and data supplied nothing points to a 2nd wave, even after the beaches opened up, all the protests of different sorts and pubs opening up BUT alot still screaming 2nd WAVE INCOMING... very strange! oh even the NHSdata hotline hasnt even blipped and that'd be one of the 1st signs to show any '2nd wave' | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"They are probably just looking for a set of stats that make it look like they haven't been the worst at dealing with it. " That's what I'm thinking too. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The figures may not be accurate but taken together they indicate a trend. If we get no figures how can we make our own assessment of a trend? well heres a point, on the figures and data supplied nothing points to a 2nd wave, even after the beaches opened up, all the protests of different sorts and pubs opening up BUT alot still screaming 2nd WAVE INCOMING... very strange! oh even the NHSdata hotline hasnt even blipped and that'd be one of the 1st signs to show any '2nd wave'" Think the worry of the UK 2nd wave may come from 2nd wave experienced by other countries who are more disciplined at locking down than we will ever be.. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The figures may not be accurate but taken together they indicate a trend. If we get no figures how can we make our own assessment of a trend? well heres a point, on the figures and data supplied nothing points to a 2nd wave, even after the beaches opened up, all the protests of different sorts and pubs opening up BUT alot still screaming 2nd WAVE INCOMING... very strange! oh even the NHSdata hotline hasnt even blipped and that'd be one of the 1st signs to show any '2nd wave' Think the worry of the UK 2nd wave may come from 2nd wave experienced by other countries who are more disciplined at locking down than we will ever be.." what countries are these? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The figures may not be accurate but taken together they indicate a trend. If we get no figures how can we make our own assessment of a trend? well heres a point, on the figures and data supplied nothing points to a 2nd wave, even after the beaches opened up, all the protests of different sorts and pubs opening up BUT alot still screaming 2nd WAVE INCOMING... very strange! oh even the NHSdata hotline hasnt even blipped and that'd be one of the 1st signs to show any '2nd wave'" "...on the figures and data supplied nothing points to a 2nd wave..." I don't think people are claiming that there will be a second wave based on current figures and data supplied. They base it on previous pandemics where second waves have taken place. The thing is there is no evidence to show whether they will or will not be a second wave - you'll need a crystal ball to know that; which non of us have. The fact that we did not get a spike when people were at the beach, protests etc, does not prove that we will not get one later in the year in winter. The lack of social distancing at the beach etc; did not bring a spike, but those were outdoor events where the risk of transmission is low. In indoor settings the risk of transmission is higher, so as people tend to stay indoors during the winter, the risk of transmission would be greater if social distancing is not adhered to - hence why flu and cold are more widespread during that time as well. Again it is hard to predict since this virus is still new. We may not have a spike in winter, but it may happen. For now we can't prove it either way. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"maybe its got something to do with the amount of law suites the govt have against them due to covid and not the real reason for death being put on the death certificate" I've had a few friends who's elderly grand parents have died of old age and on their death certificate it said covid 19 | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"maybe its got something to do with the amount of law suites the govt have against them due to covid and not the real reason for death being put on the death certificate I've had a few friends who's elderly grand parents have died of old age and on their death certificate it said covid 19 " I'm not being funny here..can you die of old age? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"maybe its got something to do with the amount of law suites the govt have against them due to covid and not the real reason for death being put on the death certificate I've had a few friends who's elderly grand parents have died of old age and on their death certificate it said covid 19 I'm not being funny here..can you die of old age?" Only if you live too long  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"maybe its got something to do with the amount of law suites the govt have against them due to covid and not the real reason for death being put on the death certificate I've had a few friends who's elderly grand parents have died of old age and on their death certificate it said covid 19 I'm not being funny here..can you die of old age? Only if you live too long " | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" I'm not being funny here..can you die of old age?" It is recommended that "old age" is not listed as the sole cause of death. It is only permitted if the person is over 80 and the doctor has observed them frequently for several years. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"maybe its got something to do with the amount of law suites the govt have against them due to covid and not the real reason for death being put on the death certificate I've had a few friends who's elderly grand parents have died of old age and on their death certificate it said covid 19 I'm not being funny here..can you die of old age?" No. You can't. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"maybe its got something to do with the amount of law suites the govt have against them due to covid and not the real reason for death being put on the death certificate I've had a few friends who's elderly grand parents have died of old age and on their death certificate it said covid 19 I'm not being funny here..can you die of old age? Only if you live too long ""...Only if you live too long ..."
and how long is too long ? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one!
Could be some caused by not seeking treatment.
So 65,000 extra people have died because they didn’t seek treatment? These are deaths, over and above what we would normally expect in this country. All the ‘normal’ deaths still occurred in this period, yet we have a spike of 65,000 additional deaths.
Well, 45,000 of those excess deaths are due to covid. This leaves 20,000 for which there is a myriad of possible causes. Such as-
people not recieving the treatment they need (cancer patients, people having a heart attack but convincing themselves its something else to avoid hospital, ambulance staff being too busy to get to patients quickly enough to save their life etc).
The isolation could have caused many suicides
Elderly avoiding the hospitals and succumbing to other infections.
Diy accidents through everyone stuck at home wanting to get jobs done.
Etc etc.
Last point, though by no means insignificant. - the excess death figure is calculated from an 'average' number. The very nature of averaged means that there must have been a high figure, and a low. We could have had an extra 20,000 this year even if covid didn't exist.
Of course we could also been in a low year for (normal) deaths meaning that covid deaths are even higher than recorded but this just serves to confirm that using excess deaths figures is pointless without having the complete data set. In isolation it is just a meaningless number.
That’s a very hopeful outlook. it’s well documented that Covid 19 deaths in the care homes weren’t recorded for the first few months of the pandemic. If you worked in any hospital in the UK you would also see that the registering of deaths as Covid-19 isn’t hugely accurate to the reality. There’s a number of patients who aren’t recorded as C19 who in reality are, whether that be not tested prior to death or swabbed clear post infection but still die due to the damage the virus has done.
Its not hopeful, its factual and not supporting/implying a particular causation.
I am merely pointing out that using statistics without a complete understanding and consideration of the relevant data is meaningless.
Trying to use it as definitive proof is naive, possibly even deceptive.
I could easily take a 'fact' or statistic to disprove any of your claims but it would just be point scoring and have no real relevance. Ie - it is well documented that people that havent died of covid have been recorded as dying from it therefore covid is a con.
The 'fact' is true, the conclusion isn't. Exactly the same as the other facts and statistics being rolled out to support or disprove one side or the other. The conclusions drawn from them are nothing more than assumption.
That’s a very long winded statement to summarise the fact we all know that is statistics can always be presented in a number of ways...
The point I make is simple, if you work in any of the NHS trusts or indeed the care system you are aware the reality far exceeds the ‘recorded Covid-19 deaths’.
Unless you have been in every hospital and tallied every figure your 'point' is nothing more than the assumptions I refered to. "No it’s not, because every trust is obliged to record deaths in the same manner and using the same guidelines. For example we have a number of patients who have passed through ICU on ventilation and overcome the virus essentially as they will swab clear during treatment. They may pass away despite the virus being gone simply through major organ failure due to the damage the virus has caused. These cases will not appear as a Covid 19 deaths, they will fall under whatever organ failure in the final reckoning. Likewise the approach for patients in the care system was to not move them to a hospital environment in the early months. Testing was unavailable in the majority of homes and therefore those who passed away where simply filed under terminal copd, again they don’t contribute to the Covid-19 figures. Your standpoint reminds me of the geniuses At KPMG who took over procurement of PPE during this crisis. Educated, Intelligent people with a single source of information. Sadly zero insight into the frontline, the working mechanisms, the central directives that change daily from Downing Street etc. In the same way as we rolled our eyes when boxes of the wrong grade face masks, turned up... 1/2 supplies of gloves as they counted an individual glove as 1 unit etc. When I read your delivery I do the same... fair assessment, well written and lots of logic but in honesty you don’t have a clue on the reality of the subject. There’s a minor hospital in Manchester that has 1 confirmed Covid 19 death, the reality is 38 patients died on their Covid wards during the past 4 months, as part of the team who bagged them up I think I can say categorically they aren’t heresay. The hospital trust I am at currently has over 600 ‘grey area deaths’ over the period on top of a figure nearing 2000 confirmed. These are not insignificant discrepancies and they can’t be washed away with a sweeping statement from someone with zero first hand perspective of the systems in place or the reporting mechanism. The priority of this government has always been to soften the figures... if we look at the % of our unconfirmed c19 deaths and apply that as an average across the national figures... shock horror, about an additional 20k which is pretty similar to the shift in average seasonal deaths so far this year still unaccounted for. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one!
Could be some caused by not seeking treatment.
So 65,000 extra people have died because they didn’t seek treatment? These are deaths, over and above what we would normally expect in this country. All the ‘normal’ deaths still occurred in this period, yet we have a spike of 65,000 additional deaths.
Well, 45,000 of those excess deaths are due to covid. This leaves 20,000 for which there is a myriad of possible causes. Such as-
people not recieving the treatment they need (cancer patients, people having a heart attack but convincing themselves its something else to avoid hospital, ambulance staff being too busy to get to patients quickly enough to save their life etc).
The isolation could have caused many suicides
Elderly avoiding the hospitals and succumbing to other infections.
Diy accidents through everyone stuck at home wanting to get jobs done.
Etc etc.
Last point, though by no means insignificant. - the excess death figure is calculated from an 'average' number. The very nature of averaged means that there must have been a high figure, and a low. We could have had an extra 20,000 this year even if covid didn't exist.
Of course we could also been in a low year for (normal) deaths meaning that covid deaths are even higher than recorded but this just serves to confirm that using excess deaths figures is pointless without having the complete data set. In isolation it is just a meaningless number.
That’s a very hopeful outlook. it’s well documented that Covid 19 deaths in the care homes weren’t recorded for the first few months of the pandemic. If you worked in any hospital in the UK you would also see that the registering of deaths as Covid-19 isn’t hugely accurate to the reality. There’s a number of patients who aren’t recorded as C19 who in reality are, whether that be not tested prior to death or swabbed clear post infection but still die due to the damage the virus has done.
Its not hopeful, its factual and not supporting/implying a particular causation.
I am merely pointing out that using statistics without a complete understanding and consideration of the relevant data is meaningless.
Trying to use it as definitive proof is naive, possibly even deceptive.
I could easily take a 'fact' or statistic to disprove any of your claims but it would just be point scoring and have no real relevance. Ie - it is well documented that people that havent died of covid have been recorded as dying from it therefore covid is a con.
The 'fact' is true, the conclusion isn't. Exactly the same as the other facts and statistics being rolled out to support or disprove one side or the other. The conclusions drawn from them are nothing more than assumption.
That’s a very long winded statement to summarise the fact we all know that is statistics can always be presented in a number of ways...
The point I make is simple, if you work in any of the NHS trusts or indeed the care system you are aware the reality far exceeds the ‘recorded Covid-19 deaths’.
Unless you have been in every hospital and tallied every figure your 'point' is nothing more than the assumptions I refered to.
No it’s not, because every trust is obliged to record deaths in the same manner and using the same guidelines.
For example we have a number of patients who have passed through ICU on ventilation and overcome the virus essentially as they will swab clear during treatment. They may pass away despite the virus being gone simply through major organ failure due to the damage the virus has caused. These cases will not appear as a Covid 19 deaths, they will fall under whatever organ failure in the final reckoning.
Likewise the approach for patients in the care system was to not move them to a hospital environment in the early months. Testing was unavailable in the majority of homes and therefore those who passed away where simply filed under terminal copd, again they don’t contribute to the Covid-19 figures.
Your standpoint reminds me of the geniuses At KPMG who took over procurement of PPE during this crisis. Educated, Intelligent people with a single source of information. Sadly zero insight into the frontline, the working mechanisms, the central directives that change daily from Downing Street etc. In the same way as we rolled our eyes when boxes of the wrong grade face masks, turned up... 1/2 supplies of gloves as they counted an individual glove as 1 unit etc. When I read your delivery I do the same... fair assessment, well written and lots of logic but in honesty you don’t have a clue on the reality of the subject.
There’s a minor hospital in Manchester that has 1 confirmed Covid 19 death, the reality is 38 patients died on their Covid wards during the past 4 months, as part of the team who bagged them up I think I can say categorically they aren’t heresay. The hospital trust I am at currently has over 600 ‘grey area deaths’ over the period on top of a figure nearing 2000 confirmed. These are not insignificant discrepancies and they can’t be washed away with a sweeping statement from someone with zero first hand perspective of the systems in place or the reporting mechanism.
The priority of this government has always been to soften the figures... if we look at the % of our unconfirmed c19 deaths and apply that as an average across the national figures... shock horror, about an additional 20k which is pretty similar to the shift in average seasonal deaths so far this year still unaccounted for."First of all, the entire reason for the review of the death toll is because ALL deaths that have had a positive test for covid at ANY point in time are included in the statistics. (In the extreme this could be someone that recovered 3 months ago and then Got hit by a bus). This brings your claim about people being left out of the count because they swabbed clear after having it into serious doubt. Drs and professors agree with this and i dont mean to be disrespectful but you having 'bagged up' some dead people doesnt qualify you to categorically state much. https://www.theparliamentaryreview.co.uk/news/health-secretary-orders-review-into-covid-19-death-data | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one!
Could be some caused by not seeking treatment.
So 65,000 extra people have died because they didn’t seek treatment? These are deaths, over and above what we would normally expect in this country. All the ‘normal’ deaths still occurred in this period, yet we have a spike of 65,000 additional deaths.
Well, 45,000 of those excess deaths are due to covid. This leaves 20,000 for which there is a myriad of possible causes. Such as-
people not recieving the treatment they need (cancer patients, people having a heart attack but convincing themselves its something else to avoid hospital, ambulance staff being too busy to get to patients quickly enough to save their life etc).
The isolation could have caused many suicides
Elderly avoiding the hospitals and succumbing to other infections.
Diy accidents through everyone stuck at home wanting to get jobs done.
Etc etc.
Last point, though by no means insignificant. - the excess death figure is calculated from an 'average' number. The very nature of averaged means that there must have been a high figure, and a low. We could have had an extra 20,000 this year even if covid didn't exist.
Of course we could also been in a low year for (normal) deaths meaning that covid deaths are even higher than recorded but this just serves to confirm that using excess deaths figures is pointless without having the complete data set. In isolation it is just a meaningless number.
That’s a very hopeful outlook. it’s well documented that Covid 19 deaths in the care homes weren’t recorded for the first few months of the pandemic. If you worked in any hospital in the UK you would also see that the registering of deaths as Covid-19 isn’t hugely accurate to the reality. There’s a number of patients who aren’t recorded as C19 who in reality are, whether that be not tested prior to death or swabbed clear post infection but still die due to the damage the virus has done.
Its not hopeful, its factual and not supporting/implying a particular causation.
I am merely pointing out that using statistics without a complete understanding and consideration of the relevant data is meaningless.
Trying to use it as definitive proof is naive, possibly even deceptive.
I could easily take a 'fact' or statistic to disprove any of your claims but it would just be point scoring and have no real relevance. Ie - it is well documented that people that havent died of covid have been recorded as dying from it therefore covid is a con.
The 'fact' is true, the conclusion isn't. Exactly the same as the other facts and statistics being rolled out to support or disprove one side or the other. The conclusions drawn from them are nothing more than assumption.
That’s a very long winded statement to summarise the fact we all know that is statistics can always be presented in a number of ways...
The point I make is simple, if you work in any of the NHS trusts or indeed the care system you are aware the reality far exceeds the ‘recorded Covid-19 deaths’.
Unless you have been in every hospital and tallied every figure your 'point' is nothing more than the assumptions I refered to.
No it’s not, because every trust is obliged to record deaths in the same manner and using the same guidelines.
For example we have a number of patients who have passed through ICU on ventilation and overcome the virus essentially as they will swab clear during treatment. They may pass away despite the virus being gone simply through major organ failure due to the damage the virus has caused. These cases will not appear as a Covid 19 deaths, they will fall under whatever organ failure in the final reckoning.
Likewise the approach for patients in the care system was to not move them to a hospital environment in the early months. Testing was unavailable in the majority of homes and therefore those who passed away where simply filed under terminal copd, again they don’t contribute to the Covid-19 figures.
Your standpoint reminds me of the geniuses At KPMG who took over procurement of PPE during this crisis. Educated, Intelligent people with a single source of information. Sadly zero insight into the frontline, the working mechanisms, the central directives that change daily from Downing Street etc. In the same way as we rolled our eyes when boxes of the wrong grade face masks, turned up... 1/2 supplies of gloves as they counted an individual glove as 1 unit etc. When I read your delivery I do the same... fair assessment, well written and lots of logic but in honesty you don’t have a clue on the reality of the subject.
There’s a minor hospital in Manchester that has 1 confirmed Covid 19 death, the reality is 38 patients died on their Covid wards during the past 4 months, as part of the team who bagged them up I think I can say categorically they aren’t heresay. The hospital trust I am at currently has over 600 ‘grey area deaths’ over the period on top of a figure nearing 2000 confirmed. These are not insignificant discrepancies and they can’t be washed away with a sweeping statement from someone with zero first hand perspective of the systems in place or the reporting mechanism.
The priority of this government has always been to soften the figures... if we look at the % of our unconfirmed c19 deaths and apply that as an average across the national figures... shock horror, about an additional 20k which is pretty similar to the shift in average seasonal deaths so far this year still unaccounted for.
First of all, the entire reason for the review of the death toll is because ALL deaths that have had a positive test for covid at ANY point in time are included in the statistics. (In the extreme this could be someone that recovered 3 months ago and then
Got hit by a bus). This brings your claim about people being left out of the count because they swabbed clear after having it into serious doubt.
Drs and professors agree with this and i dont mean to be disrespectful but you having 'bagged up' some dead people doesnt qualify you to categorically state much.
https://www.theparliamentaryreview.co.uk/news/health-secretary-orders-review-into-covid-19-death-data"Once again... a little information, a huge decree of knowledge. “The current counting methods”, tell me... how long have those current counting methods been in place Mr Expert on the subject? That’s your problem here... you’re sighting a few individual cases which are under question and using them to question what has been a horrific and under reported death toll. And actually you are hugely disrespectful, there’s a huge number of people who have lost relatives, loved ones etc and for the sake of positioning yourself as some kind of authority on the subject you are sighting a ‘spin doctors’ polished statement from Matt Hancock. I’ll happily admit I’m not a Tory, I’ll happily admit I never thought I would see a worst minister for health post Jeremy Hunt until Matt Hancock arrived... but I’ll also admit that any government you liked would have struggled with Covid-19, there is no perfect approach. That doesn’t change the fact that Covid-19 deaths have been massively under reported in this country (as probably every European country in truth). As we where told months ago by many “professors and doctors” we will only be able to see the real impact when we have enough data to review against the 5 year averages. Nothing has changed that fact, we have enough data in our hands now to do that and it clearly shows our figures are understated, they highlight the failings of Mr Hancock, his policies and approach. Stating a handful of questionable entries doesn’t erase that, if you fail to see stories and statements like Mr Hancocks don’t have a political agenda then perhaps you lack the intellect I gave you credit for. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Yeah apparently no one from England can ever recover "Got to say it but thats a great profile pic | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one!
Could be some caused by not seeking treatment.
So 65,000 extra people have died because they didn’t seek treatment? These are deaths, over and above what we would normally expect in this country. All the ‘normal’ deaths still occurred in this period, yet we have a spike of 65,000 additional deaths.
Well, 45,000 of those excess deaths are due to covid. This leaves 20,000 for which there is a myriad of possible causes. Such as-
people not recieving the treatment they need (cancer patients, people having a heart attack but convincing themselves its something else to avoid hospital, ambulance staff being too busy to get to patients quickly enough to save their life etc).
The isolation could have caused many suicides
Elderly avoiding the hospitals and succumbing to other infections.
Diy accidents through everyone stuck at home wanting to get jobs done.
Etc etc.
Last point, though by no means insignificant. - the excess death figure is calculated from an 'average' number. The very nature of averaged means that there must have been a high figure, and a low. We could have had an extra 20,000 this year even if covid didn't exist.
Of course we could also been in a low year for (normal) deaths meaning that covid deaths are even higher than recorded but this just serves to confirm that using excess deaths figures is pointless without having the complete data set. In isolation it is just a meaningless number.
That’s a very hopeful outlook. it’s well documented that Covid 19 deaths in the care homes weren’t recorded for the first few months of the pandemic. If you worked in any hospital in the UK you would also see that the registering of deaths as Covid-19 isn’t hugely accurate to the reality. There’s a number of patients who aren’t recorded as C19 who in reality are, whether that be not tested prior to death or swabbed clear post infection but still die due to the damage the virus has done.
Its not hopeful, its factual and not supporting/implying a particular causation.
I am merely pointing out that using statistics without a complete understanding and consideration of the relevant data is meaningless.
Trying to use it as definitive proof is naive, possibly even deceptive.
I could easily take a 'fact' or statistic to disprove any of your claims but it would just be point scoring and have no real relevance. Ie - it is well documented that people that havent died of covid have been recorded as dying from it therefore covid is a con.
The 'fact' is true, the conclusion isn't. Exactly the same as the other facts and statistics being rolled out to support or disprove one side or the other. The conclusions drawn from them are nothing more than assumption.
That’s a very long winded statement to summarise the fact we all know that is statistics can always be presented in a number of ways...
The point I make is simple, if you work in any of the NHS trusts or indeed the care system you are aware the reality far exceeds the ‘recorded Covid-19 deaths’.
Unless you have been in every hospital and tallied every figure your 'point' is nothing more than the assumptions I refered to.
No it’s not, because every trust is obliged to record deaths in the same manner and using the same guidelines.
For example we have a number of patients who have passed through ICU on ventilation and overcome the virus essentially as they will swab clear during treatment. They may pass away despite the virus being gone simply through major organ failure due to the damage the virus has caused. These cases will not appear as a Covid 19 deaths, they will fall under whatever organ failure in the final reckoning.
Likewise the approach for patients in the care system was to not move them to a hospital environment in the early months. Testing was unavailable in the majority of homes and therefore those who passed away where simply filed under terminal copd, again they don’t contribute to the Covid-19 figures.
Your standpoint reminds me of the geniuses At KPMG who took over procurement of PPE during this crisis. Educated, Intelligent people with a single source of information. Sadly zero insight into the frontline, the working mechanisms, the central directives that change daily from Downing Street etc. In the same way as we rolled our eyes when boxes of the wrong grade face masks, turned up... 1/2 supplies of gloves as they counted an individual glove as 1 unit etc. When I read your delivery I do the same... fair assessment, well written and lots of logic but in honesty you don’t have a clue on the reality of the subject.
There’s a minor hospital in Manchester that has 1 confirmed Covid 19 death, the reality is 38 patients died on their Covid wards during the past 4 months, as part of the team who bagged them up I think I can say categorically they aren’t heresay. The hospital trust I am at currently has over 600 ‘grey area deaths’ over the period on top of a figure nearing 2000 confirmed. These are not insignificant discrepancies and they can’t be washed away with a sweeping statement from someone with zero first hand perspective of the systems in place or the reporting mechanism.
The priority of this government has always been to soften the figures... if we look at the % of our unconfirmed c19 deaths and apply that as an average across the national figures... shock horror, about an additional 20k which is pretty similar to the shift in average seasonal deaths so far this year still unaccounted for."Interesting read | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one!
Could be some caused by not seeking treatment.
So 65,000 extra people have died because they didn’t seek treatment? These are deaths, over and above what we would normally expect in this country. All the ‘normal’ deaths still occurred in this period, yet we have a spike of 65,000 additional deaths.
Well, 45,000 of those excess deaths are due to covid. This leaves 20,000 for which there is a myriad of possible causes. Such as-
people not recieving the treatment they need (cancer patients, people having a heart attack but convincing themselves its something else to avoid hospital, ambulance staff being too busy to get to patients quickly enough to save their life etc).
The isolation could have caused many suicides
Elderly avoiding the hospitals and succumbing to other infections.
Diy accidents through everyone stuck at home wanting to get jobs done.
Etc etc.
Last point, though by no means insignificant. - the excess death figure is calculated from an 'average' number. The very nature of averaged means that there must have been a high figure, and a low. We could have had an extra 20,000 this year even if covid didn't exist.
Of course we could also been in a low year for (normal) deaths meaning that covid deaths are even higher than recorded but this just serves to confirm that using excess deaths figures is pointless without having the complete data set. In isolation it is just a meaningless number.
That’s a very hopeful outlook. it’s well documented that Covid 19 deaths in the care homes weren’t recorded for the first few months of the pandemic. If you worked in any hospital in the UK you would also see that the registering of deaths as Covid-19 isn’t hugely accurate to the reality. There’s a number of patients who aren’t recorded as C19 who in reality are, whether that be not tested prior to death or swabbed clear post infection but still die due to the damage the virus has done.
Its not hopeful, its factual and not supporting/implying a particular causation.
I am merely pointing out that using statistics without a complete understanding and consideration of the relevant data is meaningless.
Trying to use it as definitive proof is naive, possibly even deceptive.
I could easily take a 'fact' or statistic to disprove any of your claims but it would just be point scoring and have no real relevance. Ie - it is well documented that people that havent died of covid have been recorded as dying from it therefore covid is a con.
The 'fact' is true, the conclusion isn't. Exactly the same as the other facts and statistics being rolled out to support or disprove one side or the other. The conclusions drawn from them are nothing more than assumption.
That’s a very long winded statement to summarise the fact we all know that is statistics can always be presented in a number of ways...
The point I make is simple, if you work in any of the NHS trusts or indeed the care system you are aware the reality far exceeds the ‘recorded Covid-19 deaths’.
Unless you have been in every hospital and tallied every figure your 'point' is nothing more than the assumptions I refered to.
No it’s not, because every trust is obliged to record deaths in the same manner and using the same guidelines.
For example we have a number of patients who have passed through ICU on ventilation and overcome the virus essentially as they will swab clear during treatment. They may pass away despite the virus being gone simply through major organ failure due to the damage the virus has caused. These cases will not appear as a Covid 19 deaths, they will fall under whatever organ failure in the final reckoning.
Likewise the approach for patients in the care system was to not move them to a hospital environment in the early months. Testing was unavailable in the majority of homes and therefore those who passed away where simply filed under terminal copd, again they don’t contribute to the Covid-19 figures.
Your standpoint reminds me of the geniuses At KPMG who took over procurement of PPE during this crisis. Educated, Intelligent people with a single source of information. Sadly zero insight into the frontline, the working mechanisms, the central directives that change daily from Downing Street etc. In the same way as we rolled our eyes when boxes of the wrong grade face masks, turned up... 1/2 supplies of gloves as they counted an individual glove as 1 unit etc. When I read your delivery I do the same... fair assessment, well written and lots of logic but in honesty you don’t have a clue on the reality of the subject.
There’s a minor hospital in Manchester that has 1 confirmed Covid 19 death, the reality is 38 patients died on their Covid wards during the past 4 months, as part of the team who bagged them up I think I can say categorically they aren’t heresay. The hospital trust I am at currently has over 600 ‘grey area deaths’ over the period on top of a figure nearing 2000 confirmed. These are not insignificant discrepancies and they can’t be washed away with a sweeping statement from someone with zero first hand perspective of the systems in place or the reporting mechanism.
The priority of this government has always been to soften the figures... if we look at the % of our unconfirmed c19 deaths and apply that as an average across the national figures... shock horror, about an additional 20k which is pretty similar to the shift in average seasonal deaths so far this year still unaccounted for.
First of all, the entire reason for the review of the death toll is because ALL deaths that have had a positive test for covid at ANY point in time are included in the statistics. (In the extreme this could be someone that recovered 3 months ago and then
Got hit by a bus). This brings your claim about people being left out of the count because they swabbed clear after having it into serious doubt.
Drs and professors agree with this and i dont mean to be disrespectful but you having 'bagged up' some dead people doesnt qualify you to categorically state much.
https://www.theparliamentaryreview.co.uk/news/health-secretary-orders-review-into-covid-19-death-data
Once again... a little information, a huge decree of knowledge.
“The current counting methods”, tell me... how long have those current counting methods been in place Mr Expert on the subject? That’s your problem here... you’re sighting a few individual cases which are under question and using them to question what has been a horrific and under reported death toll.
And actually you are hugely disrespectful, there’s a huge number of people who have lost relatives, loved ones etc and for the sake of positioning yourself as some kind of authority on the subject you are sighting a ‘spin doctors’ polished statement from Matt Hancock.
I’ll happily admit I’m not a Tory, I’ll happily admit I never thought I would see a worst minister for health post Jeremy Hunt until Matt Hancock arrived... but I’ll also admit that any government you liked would have struggled with Covid-19, there is no perfect approach. That doesn’t change the fact that Covid-19 deaths have been massively under reported in this country (as probably every European country in truth). As we where told months ago by many “professors and doctors” we will only be able to see the real impact when we have enough data to review against the 5 year averages. Nothing has changed that fact, we have enough data in our hands now to do that and it clearly shows our figures are understated, they highlight the failings of Mr Hancock, his policies and approach.
Stating a handful of questionable entries doesn’t erase that, if you fail to see stories and statements like Mr Hancocks don’t have a political agenda then perhaps you lack the intellect I gave you credit for.
"It is not 'fact' that deaths are under reported, it is your opinion. Pointing out that you are not qualified to state this opinion as fact is not disrespectful to those that have died and their familes. Trying to claim it as such is nonsense. People that have tested positive for covid are recorded by the second generation surveillance system. Deaths are then checked against this list and anyone that has ever tested positive is added to the statistics for covid deaths. This isnt a method that begun part way through the current crisis and it includes eveyone that has been tested from day 1. Even the claimed missing care home deaths where added retrospectively to the statistics on april 29th when the guidelines for recording them changed. The inquiry into over reporting is prompted by oxford professors in conjunction with other professors s and is acknowledgedby the peoplebthat compile the statistics. If you want to dismiss this as political agenda then it just highlights your cognitive bias. The fact that you think you know better than these professors and statisticians is a glorious display of your own 'little information' leading to a 'huge decree of knowledge'. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one!
Could be some caused by not seeking treatment.
So 65,000 extra people have died because they didn’t seek treatment? These are deaths, over and above what we would normally expect in this country. All the ‘normal’ deaths still occurred in this period, yet we have a spike of 65,000 additional deaths.
Well, 45,000 of those excess deaths are due to covid. This leaves 20,000 for which there is a myriad of possible causes. Such as-
people not recieving the treatment they need (cancer patients, people having a heart attack but convincing themselves its something else to avoid hospital, ambulance staff being too busy to get to patients quickly enough to save their life etc).
The isolation could have caused many suicides
Elderly avoiding the hospitals and succumbing to other infections.
Diy accidents through everyone stuck at home wanting to get jobs done.
Etc etc.
Last point, though by no means insignificant. - the excess death figure is calculated from an 'average' number. The very nature of averaged means that there must have been a high figure, and a low. We could have had an extra 20,000 this year even if covid didn't exist.
Of course we could also been in a low year for (normal) deaths meaning that covid deaths are even higher than recorded but this just serves to confirm that using excess deaths figures is pointless without having the complete data set. In isolation it is just a meaningless number.
That’s a very hopeful outlook. it’s well documented that Covid 19 deaths in the care homes weren’t recorded for the first few months of the pandemic. If you worked in any hospital in the UK you would also see that the registering of deaths as Covid-19 isn’t hugely accurate to the reality. There’s a number of patients who aren’t recorded as C19 who in reality are, whether that be not tested prior to death or swabbed clear post infection but still die due to the damage the virus has done.
Its not hopeful, its factual and not supporting/implying a particular causation.
I am merely pointing out that using statistics without a complete understanding and consideration of the relevant data is meaningless.
Trying to use it as definitive proof is naive, possibly even deceptive.
I could easily take a 'fact' or statistic to disprove any of your claims but it would just be point scoring and have no real relevance. Ie - it is well documented that people that havent died of covid have been recorded as dying from it therefore covid is a con.
The 'fact' is true, the conclusion isn't. Exactly the same as the other facts and statistics being rolled out to support or disprove one side or the other. The conclusions drawn from them are nothing more than assumption.
That’s a very long winded statement to summarise the fact we all know that is statistics can always be presented in a number of ways...
The point I make is simple, if you work in any of the NHS trusts or indeed the care system you are aware the reality far exceeds the ‘recorded Covid-19 deaths’.
Unless you have been in every hospital and tallied every figure your 'point' is nothing more than the assumptions I refered to.
No it’s not, because every trust is obliged to record deaths in the same manner and using the same guidelines.
For example we have a number of patients who have passed through ICU on ventilation and overcome the virus essentially as they will swab clear during treatment. They may pass away despite the virus being gone simply through major organ failure due to the damage the virus has caused. These cases will not appear as a Covid 19 deaths, they will fall under whatever organ failure in the final reckoning.
Likewise the approach for patients in the care system was to not move them to a hospital environment in the early months. Testing was unavailable in the majority of homes and therefore those who passed away where simply filed under terminal copd, again they don’t contribute to the Covid-19 figures.
Your standpoint reminds me of the geniuses At KPMG who took over procurement of PPE during this crisis. Educated, Intelligent people with a single source of information. Sadly zero insight into the frontline, the working mechanisms, the central directives that change daily from Downing Street etc. In the same way as we rolled our eyes when boxes of the wrong grade face masks, turned up... 1/2 supplies of gloves as they counted an individual glove as 1 unit etc. When I read your delivery I do the same... fair assessment, well written and lots of logic but in honesty you don’t have a clue on the reality of the subject.
There’s a minor hospital in Manchester that has 1 confirmed Covid 19 death, the reality is 38 patients died on their Covid wards during the past 4 months, as part of the team who bagged them up I think I can say categorically they aren’t heresay. The hospital trust I am at currently has over 600 ‘grey area deaths’ over the period on top of a figure nearing 2000 confirmed. These are not insignificant discrepancies and they can’t be washed away with a sweeping statement from someone with zero first hand perspective of the systems in place or the reporting mechanism.
The priority of this government has always been to soften the figures... if we look at the % of our unconfirmed c19 deaths and apply that as an average across the national figures... shock horror, about an additional 20k which is pretty similar to the shift in average seasonal deaths so far this year still unaccounted for.
First of all, the entire reason for the review of the death toll is because ALL deaths that have had a positive test for covid at ANY point in time are included in the statistics. (In the extreme this could be someone that recovered 3 months ago and then
Got hit by a bus). This brings your claim about people being left out of the count because they swabbed clear after having it into serious doubt.
Drs and professors agree with this and i dont mean to be disrespectful but you having 'bagged up' some dead people doesnt qualify you to categorically state much.
https://www.theparliamentaryreview.co.uk/news/health-secretary-orders-review-into-covid-19-death-data
Once again... a little information, a huge decree of knowledge.
“The current counting methods”, tell me... how long have those current counting methods been in place Mr Expert on the subject? That’s your problem here... you’re sighting a few individual cases which are under question and using them to question what has been a horrific and under reported death toll.
And actually you are hugely disrespectful, there’s a huge number of people who have lost relatives, loved ones etc and for the sake of positioning yourself as some kind of authority on the subject you are sighting a ‘spin doctors’ polished statement from Matt Hancock.
I’ll happily admit I’m not a Tory, I’ll happily admit I never thought I would see a worst minister for health post Jeremy Hunt until Matt Hancock arrived... but I’ll also admit that any government you liked would have struggled with Covid-19, there is no perfect approach. That doesn’t change the fact that Covid-19 deaths have been massively under reported in this country (as probably every European country in truth). As we where told months ago by many “professors and doctors” we will only be able to see the real impact when we have enough data to review against the 5 year averages. Nothing has changed that fact, we have enough data in our hands now to do that and it clearly shows our figures are understated, they highlight the failings of Mr Hancock, his policies and approach.
Stating a handful of questionable entries doesn’t erase that, if you fail to see stories and statements like Mr Hancocks don’t have a political agenda then perhaps you lack the intellect I gave you credit for.
It is not 'fact' that deaths are under reported, it is your opinion. Pointing out that you are not qualified to state this opinion as fact is not disrespectful to those that have died and their familes. Trying to claim it as such is nonsense.
People that have tested positive for covid are recorded by the second generation surveillance system. Deaths are then checked against this list and anyone that has ever tested positive is added to the statistics for covid deaths. This isnt a method that begun part way through the current crisis and it includes eveyone that has been tested from day 1.
Even the claimed missing care home deaths where added retrospectively to the statistics on april 29th when the guidelines for recording them changed.
The inquiry into over reporting is prompted by oxford professors in conjunction with other professors s and is acknowledgedby the peoplebthat compile the statistics. If you want to dismiss this as political agenda then it just highlights your cognitive bias. The fact that you think you know better than these professors and statisticians is a glorious display of your own 'little information' leading to a 'huge decree of knowledge'."Of course Professor Mellow Fellow... as you say we’ve probably just had a 20,000 surplus in Fatal DIY incidents. Couldn’t answer the question though could you? Anyone in an NHS trust would tell you the scenario, heck watch the 2 part Hospital Covid special and see the coroners actually updating the records under Hancocks farcical system. It was, has been and still is an absolute joke. Your use of evidence is so selective... an increase in home accidents, untreated illnesses becoming critical, suicide attempts... in a time where RTA’s Etc where at an all time low making that 20,000 surplus in effect far far higher... how come our A&Es where devoid of the usual levels of critical patients? And the missing care home deaths where factored in on the 29th... lol, no the very few tested and confirmed cases where. That was an absolute fraction of the reality. The last major update to recording deaths occurred less than 4 weeks ago... updates themselves are into double figures since the outbreak. Perhaps ask yourself why a very simple process needs so much tinkering during that time and you may start to understand the process and motivations a little better. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one!
Could be some caused by not seeking treatment.
So 65,000 extra people have died because they didn’t seek treatment? These are deaths, over and above what we would normally expect in this country. All the ‘normal’ deaths still occurred in this period, yet we have a spike of 65,000 additional deaths.
Well, 45,000 of those excess deaths are due to covid. This leaves 20,000 for which there is a myriad of possible causes. Such as-
people not recieving the treatment they need (cancer patients, people having a heart attack but convincing themselves its something else to avoid hospital, ambulance staff being too busy to get to patients quickly enough to save their life etc).
The isolation could have caused many suicides
Elderly avoiding the hospitals and succumbing to other infections.
Diy accidents through everyone stuck at home wanting to get jobs done.
Etc etc.
Last point, though by no means insignificant. - the excess death figure is calculated from an 'average' number. The very nature of averaged means that there must have been a high figure, and a low. We could have had an extra 20,000 this year even if covid didn't exist.
Of course we could also been in a low year for (normal) deaths meaning that covid deaths are even higher than recorded but this just serves to confirm that using excess deaths figures is pointless without having the complete data set. In isolation it is just a meaningless number.
That’s a very hopeful outlook. it’s well documented that Covid 19 deaths in the care homes weren’t recorded for the first few months of the pandemic. If you worked in any hospital in the UK you would also see that the registering of deaths as Covid-19 isn’t hugely accurate to the reality. There’s a number of patients who aren’t recorded as C19 who in reality are, whether that be not tested prior to death or swabbed clear post infection but still die due to the damage the virus has done.
Its not hopeful, its factual and not supporting/implying a particular causation.
I am merely pointing out that using statistics without a complete understanding and consideration of the relevant data is meaningless.
Trying to use it as definitive proof is naive, possibly even deceptive.
I could easily take a 'fact' or statistic to disprove any of your claims but it would just be point scoring and have no real relevance. Ie - it is well documented that people that havent died of covid have been recorded as dying from it therefore covid is a con.
The 'fact' is true, the conclusion isn't. Exactly the same as the other facts and statistics being rolled out to support or disprove one side or the other. The conclusions drawn from them are nothing more than assumption.
That’s a very long winded statement to summarise the fact we all know that is statistics can always be presented in a number of ways...
The point I make is simple, if you work in any of the NHS trusts or indeed the care system you are aware the reality far exceeds the ‘recorded Covid-19 deaths’.
Unless you have been in every hospital and tallied every figure your 'point' is nothing more than the assumptions I refered to.
No it’s not, because every trust is obliged to record deaths in the same manner and using the same guidelines.
For example we have a number of patients who have passed through ICU on ventilation and overcome the virus essentially as they will swab clear during treatment. They may pass away despite the virus being gone simply through major organ failure due to the damage the virus has caused. These cases will not appear as a Covid 19 deaths, they will fall under whatever organ failure in the final reckoning.
Likewise the approach for patients in the care system was to not move them to a hospital environment in the early months. Testing was unavailable in the majority of homes and therefore those who passed away where simply filed under terminal copd, again they don’t contribute to the Covid-19 figures.
Your standpoint reminds me of the geniuses At KPMG who took over procurement of PPE during this crisis. Educated, Intelligent people with a single source of information. Sadly zero insight into the frontline, the working mechanisms, the central directives that change daily from Downing Street etc. In the same way as we rolled our eyes when boxes of the wrong grade face masks, turned up... 1/2 supplies of gloves as they counted an individual glove as 1 unit etc. When I read your delivery I do the same... fair assessment, well written and lots of logic but in honesty you don’t have a clue on the reality of the subject.
There’s a minor hospital in Manchester that has 1 confirmed Covid 19 death, the reality is 38 patients died on their Covid wards during the past 4 months, as part of the team who bagged them up I think I can say categorically they aren’t heresay. The hospital trust I am at currently has over 600 ‘grey area deaths’ over the period on top of a figure nearing 2000 confirmed. These are not insignificant discrepancies and they can’t be washed away with a sweeping statement from someone with zero first hand perspective of the systems in place or the reporting mechanism.
The priority of this government has always been to soften the figures... if we look at the % of our unconfirmed c19 deaths and apply that as an average across the national figures... shock horror, about an additional 20k which is pretty similar to the shift in average seasonal deaths so far this year still unaccounted for.
First of all, the entire reason for the review of the death toll is because ALL deaths that have had a positive test for covid at ANY point in time are included in the statistics. (In the extreme this could be someone that recovered 3 months ago and then
Got hit by a bus). This brings your claim about people being left out of the count because they swabbed clear after having it into serious doubt.
Drs and professors agree with this and i dont mean to be disrespectful but you having 'bagged up' some dead people doesnt qualify you to categorically state much.
https://www.theparliamentaryreview.co.uk/news/health-secretary-orders-review-into-covid-19-death-data
Once again... a little information, a huge decree of knowledge.
“The current counting methods”, tell me... how long have those current counting methods been in place Mr Expert on the subject? That’s your problem here... you’re sighting a few individual cases which are under question and using them to question what has been a horrific and under reported death toll.
And actually you are hugely disrespectful, there’s a huge number of people who have lost relatives, loved ones etc and for the sake of positioning yourself as some kind of authority on the subject you are sighting a ‘spin doctors’ polished statement from Matt Hancock.
I’ll happily admit I’m not a Tory, I’ll happily admit I never thought I would see a worst minister for health post Jeremy Hunt until Matt Hancock arrived... but I’ll also admit that any government you liked would have struggled with Covid-19, there is no perfect approach. That doesn’t change the fact that Covid-19 deaths have been massively under reported in this country (as probably every European country in truth). As we where told months ago by many “professors and doctors” we will only be able to see the real impact when we have enough data to review against the 5 year averages. Nothing has changed that fact, we have enough data in our hands now to do that and it clearly shows our figures are understated, they highlight the failings of Mr Hancock, his policies and approach.
Stating a handful of questionable entries doesn’t erase that, if you fail to see stories and statements like Mr Hancocks don’t have a political agenda then perhaps you lack the intellect I gave you credit for.
It is not 'fact' that deaths are under reported, it is your opinion. Pointing out that you are not qualified to state this opinion as fact is not disrespectful to those that have died and their familes. Trying to claim it as such is nonsense.
People that have tested positive for covid are recorded by the second generation surveillance system. Deaths are then checked against this list and anyone that has ever tested positive is added to the statistics for covid deaths. This isnt a method that begun part way through the current crisis and it includes eveyone that has been tested from day 1.
Even the claimed missing care home deaths where added retrospectively to the statistics on april 29th when the guidelines for recording them changed.
The inquiry into over reporting is prompted by oxford professors in conjunction with other professors s and is acknowledgedby the peoplebthat compile the statistics. If you want to dismiss this as political agenda then it just highlights your cognitive bias. The fact that you think you know better than these professors and statisticians is a glorious display of your own 'little information' leading to a 'huge decree of knowledge'.
Of course Professor Mellow Fellow... as you say we’ve probably just had a 20,000 surplus in Fatal DIY incidents. Couldn’t answer the question though could you?
Anyone in an NHS trust would tell you the scenario, heck watch the 2 part Hospital Covid special and see the coroners actually updating the records under Hancocks farcical system. It was, has been and still is an absolute joke.
Your use of evidence is so selective... an increase in home accidents, untreated illnesses becoming critical, suicide attempts... in a time where RTA’s Etc where at an all time low making that 20,000 surplus in effect far far higher... how come our A&Es where devoid of the usual levels of critical patients?
And the missing care home deaths where factored in on the 29th... lol, no the very few tested and confirmed cases where. That was an absolute fraction of the reality.
The last major update to recording deaths occurred less than 4 weeks ago... updates themselves are into double figures since the outbreak. Perhaps ask yourself why a very simple process needs so much tinkering during that time and you may start to understand the process and motivations a little better.
"What question didn't i answer? Its funny you criticise my use of evidence, all you do is give opinion without anything to back it up. I gave examples of what COULD contribute towards excess deaths including irrefutable evidence of the variation and yearly increase in totals. It is very telling that everybody has avoided this point. For the other reasons they are very possible and for example with suicides, there is the fact that half a million people have accesed one (of many) suicide prevention help programs during this crisis (as of may 18th) This is equal to the total amount of people using it in the preceeding years. It is not something to be dismissed. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52702048 You say you have the data to prove excess deaths are attributable to covid yet you dont show any, its not in the news and there are no professors parading it about. When this happens i might take it, and you seriously. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one!
Could be some caused by not seeking treatment.
So 65,000 extra people have died because they didn’t seek treatment? These are deaths, over and above what we would normally expect in this country. All the ‘normal’ deaths still occurred in this period, yet we have a spike of 65,000 additional deaths.
Well, 45,000 of those excess deaths are due to covid. This leaves 20,000 for which there is a myriad of possible causes. Such as-
people not recieving the treatment they need (cancer patients, people having a heart attack but convincing themselves its something else to avoid hospital, ambulance staff being too busy to get to patients quickly enough to save their life etc).
The isolation could have caused many suicides
Elderly avoiding the hospitals and succumbing to other infections.
Diy accidents through everyone stuck at home wanting to get jobs done.
Etc etc.
Last point, though by no means insignificant. - the excess death figure is calculated from an 'average' number. The very nature of averaged means that there must have been a high figure, and a low. We could have had an extra 20,000 this year even if covid didn't exist.
Of course we could also been in a low year for (normal) deaths meaning that covid deaths are even higher than recorded but this just serves to confirm that using excess deaths figures is pointless without having the complete data set. In isolation it is just a meaningless number.
That’s a very hopeful outlook. it’s well documented that Covid 19 deaths in the care homes weren’t recorded for the first few months of the pandemic. If you worked in any hospital in the UK you would also see that the registering of deaths as Covid-19 isn’t hugely accurate to the reality. There’s a number of patients who aren’t recorded as C19 who in reality are, whether that be not tested prior to death or swabbed clear post infection but still die due to the damage the virus has done.
Its not hopeful, its factual and not supporting/implying a particular causation.
I am merely pointing out that using statistics without a complete understanding and consideration of the relevant data is meaningless.
Trying to use it as definitive proof is naive, possibly even deceptive.
I could easily take a 'fact' or statistic to disprove any of your claims but it would just be point scoring and have no real relevance. Ie - it is well documented that people that havent died of covid have been recorded as dying from it therefore covid is a con.
The 'fact' is true, the conclusion isn't. Exactly the same as the other facts and statistics being rolled out to support or disprove one side or the other. The conclusions drawn from them are nothing more than assumption.
That’s a very long winded statement to summarise the fact we all know that is statistics can always be presented in a number of ways...
The point I make is simple, if you work in any of the NHS trusts or indeed the care system you are aware the reality far exceeds the ‘recorded Covid-19 deaths’.
Unless you have been in every hospital and tallied every figure your 'point' is nothing more than the assumptions I refered to.
No it’s not, because every trust is obliged to record deaths in the same manner and using the same guidelines.
For example we have a number of patients who have passed through ICU on ventilation and overcome the virus essentially as they will swab clear during treatment. They may pass away despite the virus being gone simply through major organ failure due to the damage the virus has caused. These cases will not appear as a Covid 19 deaths, they will fall under whatever organ failure in the final reckoning.
Likewise the approach for patients in the care system was to not move them to a hospital environment in the early months. Testing was unavailable in the majority of homes and therefore those who passed away where simply filed under terminal copd, again they don’t contribute to the Covid-19 figures.
Your standpoint reminds me of the geniuses At KPMG who took over procurement of PPE during this crisis. Educated, Intelligent people with a single source of information. Sadly zero insight into the frontline, the working mechanisms, the central directives that change daily from Downing Street etc. In the same way as we rolled our eyes when boxes of the wrong grade face masks, turned up... 1/2 supplies of gloves as they counted an individual glove as 1 unit etc. When I read your delivery I do the same... fair assessment, well written and lots of logic but in honesty you don’t have a clue on the reality of the subject.
There’s a minor hospital in Manchester that has 1 confirmed Covid 19 death, the reality is 38 patients died on their Covid wards during the past 4 months, as part of the team who bagged them up I think I can say categorically they aren’t heresay. The hospital trust I am at currently has over 600 ‘grey area deaths’ over the period on top of a figure nearing 2000 confirmed. These are not insignificant discrepancies and they can’t be washed away with a sweeping statement from someone with zero first hand perspective of the systems in place or the reporting mechanism.
The priority of this government has always been to soften the figures... if we look at the % of our unconfirmed c19 deaths and apply that as an average across the national figures... shock horror, about an additional 20k which is pretty similar to the shift in average seasonal deaths so far this year still unaccounted for.
First of all, the entire reason for the review of the death toll is because ALL deaths that have had a positive test for covid at ANY point in time are included in the statistics. (In the extreme this could be someone that recovered 3 months ago and then
Got hit by a bus). This brings your claim about people being left out of the count because they swabbed clear after having it into serious doubt.
Drs and professors agree with this and i dont mean to be disrespectful but you having 'bagged up' some dead people doesnt qualify you to categorically state much.
https://www.theparliamentaryreview.co.uk/news/health-secretary-orders-review-into-covid-19-death-data
Once again... a little information, a huge decree of knowledge.
“The current counting methods”, tell me... how long have those current counting methods been in place Mr Expert on the subject? That’s your problem here... you’re sighting a few individual cases which are under question and using them to question what has been a horrific and under reported death toll.
And actually you are hugely disrespectful, there’s a huge number of people who have lost relatives, loved ones etc and for the sake of positioning yourself as some kind of authority on the subject you are sighting a ‘spin doctors’ polished statement from Matt Hancock.
I’ll happily admit I’m not a Tory, I’ll happily admit I never thought I would see a worst minister for health post Jeremy Hunt until Matt Hancock arrived... but I’ll also admit that any government you liked would have struggled with Covid-19, there is no perfect approach. That doesn’t change the fact that Covid-19 deaths have been massively under reported in this country (as probably every European country in truth). As we where told months ago by many “professors and doctors” we will only be able to see the real impact when we have enough data to review against the 5 year averages. Nothing has changed that fact, we have enough data in our hands now to do that and it clearly shows our figures are understated, they highlight the failings of Mr Hancock, his policies and approach.
Stating a handful of questionable entries doesn’t erase that, if you fail to see stories and statements like Mr Hancocks don’t have a political agenda then perhaps you lack the intellect I gave you credit for.
It is not 'fact' that deaths are under reported, it is your opinion. Pointing out that you are not qualified to state this opinion as fact is not disrespectful to those that have died and their familes. Trying to claim it as such is nonsense.
People that have tested positive for covid are recorded by the second generation surveillance system. Deaths are then checked against this list and anyone that has ever tested positive is added to the statistics for covid deaths. This isnt a method that begun part way through the current crisis and it includes eveyone that has been tested from day 1.
Even the claimed missing care home deaths where added retrospectively to the statistics on april 29th when the guidelines for recording them changed.
The inquiry into over reporting is prompted by oxford professors in conjunction with other professors s and is acknowledgedby the peoplebthat compile the statistics. If you want to dismiss this as political agenda then it just highlights your cognitive bias. The fact that you think you know better than these professors and statisticians is a glorious display of your own 'little information' leading to a 'huge decree of knowledge'.
Of course Professor Mellow Fellow... as you say we’ve probably just had a 20,000 surplus in Fatal DIY incidents. Couldn’t answer the question though could you?
Anyone in an NHS trust would tell you the scenario, heck watch the 2 part Hospital Covid special and see the coroners actually updating the records under Hancocks farcical system. It was, has been and still is an absolute joke.
Your use of evidence is so selective... an increase in home accidents, untreated illnesses becoming critical, suicide attempts... in a time where RTA’s Etc where at an all time low making that 20,000 surplus in effect far far higher... how come our A&Es where devoid of the usual levels of critical patients?
And the missing care home deaths where factored in on the 29th... lol, no the very few tested and confirmed cases where. That was an absolute fraction of the reality.
The last major update to recording deaths occurred less than 4 weeks ago... updates themselves are into double figures since the outbreak. Perhaps ask yourself why a very simple process needs so much tinkering during that time and you may start to understand the process and motivations a little better.
What question didn't i answer?
Its funny you criticise my use of evidence, all you do is give opinion without anything to back it up.
I gave examples of what COULD contribute towards excess deaths including irrefutable evidence of the variation and yearly increase in totals. It is very telling that everybody has avoided this point.
For the other reasons they are very possible and for example with suicides, there is the fact that half a million people have accesed one (of many) suicide prevention help programs during this crisis (as of may 18th) This is equal to the total amount of people using it in the preceeding years. It is not something to be dismissed.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52702048
You say you have the data to prove excess deaths are attributable to covid yet you dont show any, its not in the news and there are no professors parading it about. When this happens i might take it, and you seriously."As the article says “investigation into the current counting methods”, my question was... how long have the “current” (very key phrase) counting methods been in place... I’ll give you a clue, about 3 weeks ago after the man launching the investigation signed the fuckers off for the umpteenth time. As for proving anything to an armchair Covid strategist... I don’t need to. the surplus deaths are known figures, the registered suicides are known figures, accidental deaths are known figures.... this isn’t rocket science, google them all and do the maths then invent some other bollox to explain away 20k plus lives because all your examples are well documented within the figures. In short you are just waffling utter crap which isn’t even a possible answer. I have every right to my opinion and it echoes the thoughts of all the team who I work with wether that’s ICU nurses, consultants, specialists in infectious diseases, clinical directors etc. Feel free to be obtuse as you like... the fact is I’ve lived the reality for months, whereas you have as much credibility as you would commenting on what it’s like to be a Para fighting in Afghanistan or wherever... you have zero insight into the reality, zero substance to your statement and simply grasp at a biased statement, worded by a spin doctor and released for the aid of political manoeuvre. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This is the same matt Hancock who knowingly counted individual gloves when telling us how many items of PPE they were delivering , I wouldn’t trust him to count his own nipples " Oh not only counted... they delivered them in that way too. Whilst KPMG where celebrating their sharp negotiating prowess we where all fucking wondering where the other half of our required glove supplies had gone too. In fairness, simple oversight... PS... don’t forget an orange bin bag is also a key piece of PPE too... oh and count the bags, not the rolls please! | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This is the same matt Hancock who knowingly counted individual gloves when telling us how many items of PPE they were delivering , I wouldn’t trust him to count his own nipples Oh not only counted... they delivered them in that way too. Whilst KPMG where celebrating their sharp negotiating prowess we where all fucking wondering where the other half of our required glove supplies had gone too. In fairness, simple oversight... PS... don’t forget an orange bin bag is also a key piece of PPE too... oh and count the bags, not the rolls please! " Matt Hancock is treated by business leaders like the spotty dim student who appears in the office one day with a spreadsheet, who’s that thick idiot over there ? Who cares, Just make up some numbers for his database and he will fuck off..... | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one!
Could be some caused by not seeking treatment.
So 65,000 extra people have died because they didn’t seek treatment? These are deaths, over and above what we would normally expect in this country. All the ‘normal’ deaths still occurred in this period, yet we have a spike of 65,000 additional deaths.
Well, 45,000 of those excess deaths are due to covid. This leaves 20,000 for which there is a myriad of possible causes. Such as-
people not recieving the treatment they need (cancer patients, people having a heart attack but convincing themselves its something else to avoid hospital, ambulance staff being too busy to get to patients quickly enough to save their life etc).
The isolation could have caused many suicides
Elderly avoiding the hospitals and succumbing to other infections.
Diy accidents through everyone stuck at home wanting to get jobs done.
Etc etc.
Last point, though by no means insignificant. - the excess death figure is calculated from an 'average' number. The very nature of averaged means that there must have been a high figure, and a low. We could have had an extra 20,000 this year even if covid didn't exist.
Of course we could also been in a low year for (normal) deaths meaning that covid deaths are even higher than recorded but this just serves to confirm that using excess deaths figures is pointless without having the complete data set. In isolation it is just a meaningless number.
That’s a very hopeful outlook. it’s well documented that Covid 19 deaths in the care homes weren’t recorded for the first few months of the pandemic. If you worked in any hospital in the UK you would also see that the registering of deaths as Covid-19 isn’t hugely accurate to the reality. There’s a number of patients who aren’t recorded as C19 who in reality are, whether that be not tested prior to death or swabbed clear post infection but still die due to the damage the virus has done.
Its not hopeful, its factual and not supporting/implying a particular causation.
I am merely pointing out that using statistics without a complete understanding and consideration of the relevant data is meaningless.
Trying to use it as definitive proof is naive, possibly even deceptive.
I could easily take a 'fact' or statistic to disprove any of your claims but it would just be point scoring and have no real relevance. Ie - it is well documented that people that havent died of covid have been recorded as dying from it therefore covid is a con.
The 'fact' is true, the conclusion isn't. Exactly the same as the other facts and statistics being rolled out to support or disprove one side or the other. The conclusions drawn from them are nothing more than assumption.
That’s a very long winded statement to summarise the fact we all know that is statistics can always be presented in a number of ways...
The point I make is simple, if you work in any of the NHS trusts or indeed the care system you are aware the reality far exceeds the ‘recorded Covid-19 deaths’.
Unless you have been in every hospital and tallied every figure your 'point' is nothing more than the assumptions I refered to.
No it’s not, because every trust is obliged to record deaths in the same manner and using the same guidelines.
For example we have a number of patients who have passed through ICU on ventilation and overcome the virus essentially as they will swab clear during treatment. They may pass away despite the virus being gone simply through major organ failure due to the damage the virus has caused. These cases will not appear as a Covid 19 deaths, they will fall under whatever organ failure in the final reckoning.
Likewise the approach for patients in the care system was to not move them to a hospital environment in the early months. Testing was unavailable in the majority of homes and therefore those who passed away where simply filed under terminal copd, again they don’t contribute to the Covid-19 figures.
Your standpoint reminds me of the geniuses At KPMG who took over procurement of PPE during this crisis. Educated, Intelligent people with a single source of information. Sadly zero insight into the frontline, the working mechanisms, the central directives that change daily from Downing Street etc. In the same way as we rolled our eyes when boxes of the wrong grade face masks, turned up... 1/2 supplies of gloves as they counted an individual glove as 1 unit etc. When I read your delivery I do the same... fair assessment, well written and lots of logic but in honesty you don’t have a clue on the reality of the subject.
There’s a minor hospital in Manchester that has 1 confirmed Covid 19 death, the reality is 38 patients died on their Covid wards during the past 4 months, as part of the team who bagged them up I think I can say categorically they aren’t heresay. The hospital trust I am at currently has over 600 ‘grey area deaths’ over the period on top of a figure nearing 2000 confirmed. These are not insignificant discrepancies and they can’t be washed away with a sweeping statement from someone with zero first hand perspective of the systems in place or the reporting mechanism.
The priority of this government has always been to soften the figures... if we look at the % of our unconfirmed c19 deaths and apply that as an average across the national figures... shock horror, about an additional 20k which is pretty similar to the shift in average seasonal deaths so far this year still unaccounted for.
First of all, the entire reason for the review of the death toll is because ALL deaths that have had a positive test for covid at ANY point in time are included in the statistics. (In the extreme this could be someone that recovered 3 months ago and then
Got hit by a bus). This brings your claim about people being left out of the count because they swabbed clear after having it into serious doubt.
Drs and professors agree with this and i dont mean to be disrespectful but you having 'bagged up' some dead people doesnt qualify you to categorically state much.
https://www.theparliamentaryreview.co.uk/news/health-secretary-orders-review-into-covid-19-death-data
Once again... a little information, a huge decree of knowledge.
“The current counting methods”, tell me... how long have those current counting methods been in place Mr Expert on the subject? That’s your problem here... you’re sighting a few individual cases which are under question and using them to question what has been a horrific and under reported death toll.
And actually you are hugely disrespectful, there’s a huge number of people who have lost relatives, loved ones etc and for the sake of positioning yourself as some kind of authority on the subject you are sighting a ‘spin doctors’ polished statement from Matt Hancock.
I’ll happily admit I’m not a Tory, I’ll happily admit I never thought I would see a worst minister for health post Jeremy Hunt until Matt Hancock arrived... but I’ll also admit that any government you liked would have struggled with Covid-19, there is no perfect approach. That doesn’t change the fact that Covid-19 deaths have been massively under reported in this country (as probably every European country in truth). As we where told months ago by many “professors and doctors” we will only be able to see the real impact when we have enough data to review against the 5 year averages. Nothing has changed that fact, we have enough data in our hands now to do that and it clearly shows our figures are understated, they highlight the failings of Mr Hancock, his policies and approach.
Stating a handful of questionable entries doesn’t erase that, if you fail to see stories and statements like Mr Hancocks don’t have a political agenda then perhaps you lack the intellect I gave you credit for.
It is not 'fact' that deaths are under reported, it is your opinion. Pointing out that you are not qualified to state this opinion as fact is not disrespectful to those that have died and their familes. Trying to claim it as such is nonsense.
People that have tested positive for covid are recorded by the second generation surveillance system. Deaths are then checked against this list and anyone that has ever tested positive is added to the statistics for covid deaths. This isnt a method that begun part way through the current crisis and it includes eveyone that has been tested from day 1.
Even the claimed missing care home deaths where added retrospectively to the statistics on april 29th when the guidelines for recording them changed.
The inquiry into over reporting is prompted by oxford professors in conjunction with other professors s and is acknowledgedby the peoplebthat compile the statistics. If you want to dismiss this as political agenda then it just highlights your cognitive bias. The fact that you think you know better than these professors and statisticians is a glorious display of your own 'little information' leading to a 'huge decree of knowledge'.
Of course Professor Mellow Fellow... as you say we’ve probably just had a 20,000 surplus in Fatal DIY incidents. Couldn’t answer the question though could you?
Anyone in an NHS trust would tell you the scenario, heck watch the 2 part Hospital Covid special and see the coroners actually updating the records under Hancocks farcical system. It was, has been and still is an absolute joke.
Your use of evidence is so selective... an increase in home accidents, untreated illnesses becoming critical, suicide attempts... in a time where RTA’s Etc where at an all time low making that 20,000 surplus in effect far far higher... how come our A&Es where devoid of the usual levels of critical patients?
And the missing care home deaths where factored in on the 29th... lol, no the very few tested and confirmed cases where. That was an absolute fraction of the reality.
The last major update to recording deaths occurred less than 4 weeks ago... updates themselves are into double figures since the outbreak. Perhaps ask yourself why a very simple process needs so much tinkering during that time and you may start to understand the process and motivations a little better.
What question didn't i answer?
Its funny you criticise my use of evidence, all you do is give opinion without anything to back it up.
I gave examples of what COULD contribute towards excess deaths including irrefutable evidence of the variation and yearly increase in totals. It is very telling that everybody has avoided this point.
For the other reasons they are very possible and for example with suicides, there is the fact that half a million people have accesed one (of many) suicide prevention help programs during this crisis (as of may 18th) This is equal to the total amount of people using it in the preceeding years. It is not something to be dismissed.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52702048
You say you have the data to prove excess deaths are attributable to covid yet you dont show any, its not in the news and there are no professors parading it about. When this happens i might take it, and you seriously.
As the article says “investigation into the current counting methods”, my question was... how long have the “current” (very key phrase) counting methods been in place... I’ll give you a clue, about 3 weeks ago after the man launching the investigation signed the fuckers off for the umpteenth time.
As for proving anything to an armchair Covid strategist... I don’t need to. the surplus deaths are known figures, the registered suicides are known figures, accidental deaths are known figures.... this isn’t rocket science, google them all and do the maths then invent some other bollox to explain away 20k plus lives because all your examples are well documented within the figures. In short you are just waffling utter crap which isn’t even a possible answer.
I have every right to my opinion and it echoes the thoughts of all the team who I work with wether that’s ICU nurses, consultants, specialists in infectious diseases, clinical directors etc. Feel free to be obtuse as you like... the fact is I’ve lived the reality for months, whereas you have as much credibility as you would commenting on what it’s like to be a Para fighting in Afghanistan or wherever... you have zero insight into the reality, zero substance to your statement and simply grasp at a biased statement, worded by a spin doctor and released for the aid of political manoeuvre.
"The current method of counting anyone that has tested positive in the death totals has been happening from the beginning. That is the specific method we are discussing and i answered accordingly. If you want to debate other aspects that contribute to the total you should specify and produce some evidence of your standpoint. As we have already established you dont use evidence just opinion, heresay and ad hominem attacks, i wont be paying much heed to your opinions and obvious agenda. Regardless of my perceived credibility this inquiry has been prompted by people with far more credibility than either of us - professors at the centre for EVIDENCE based medicine. It is acknowledged as an issue by the very people that compile the statistics and has enough credence to bring about an inquiry. It is worth noting that the centre of evidence based medicine is based at oxford university and works with the world health organisation but feel free to blame matt hancock and political agenda if it helps you feel superior. As you say you are free to have your opinion and contrary to your accusations i haven't once tried to stop you, thats just "waffling utter crap" yourself, as is most of your posts. Emotive, diversionary waffle. Without substance but plenty of bias. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one!
Could be some caused by not seeking treatment.
So 65,000 extra people have died because they didn’t seek treatment? These are deaths, over and above what we would normally expect in this country. All the ‘normal’ deaths still occurred in this period, yet we have a spike of 65,000 additional deaths.
Well, 45,000 of those excess deaths are due to covid. This leaves 20,000 for which there is a myriad of possible causes. Such as-
people not recieving the treatment they need (cancer patients, people having a heart attack but convincing themselves its something else to avoid hospital, ambulance staff being too busy to get to patients quickly enough to save their life etc).
The isolation could have caused many suicides
Elderly avoiding the hospitals and succumbing to other infections.
Diy accidents through everyone stuck at home wanting to get jobs done.
Etc etc.
Last point, though by no means insignificant. - the excess death figure is calculated from an 'average' number. The very nature of averaged means that there must have been a high figure, and a low. We could have had an extra 20,000 this year even if covid didn't exist.
Of course we could also been in a low year for (normal) deaths meaning that covid deaths are even higher than recorded but this just serves to confirm that using excess deaths figures is pointless without having the complete data set. In isolation it is just a meaningless number.
That’s a very hopeful outlook. it’s well documented that Covid 19 deaths in the care homes weren’t recorded for the first few months of the pandemic. If you worked in any hospital in the UK you would also see that the registering of deaths as Covid-19 isn’t hugely accurate to the reality. There’s a number of patients who aren’t recorded as C19 who in reality are, whether that be not tested prior to death or swabbed clear post infection but still die due to the damage the virus has done.
Its not hopeful, its factual and not supporting/implying a particular causation.
I am merely pointing out that using statistics without a complete understanding and consideration of the relevant data is meaningless.
Trying to use it as definitive proof is naive, possibly even deceptive.
I could easily take a 'fact' or statistic to disprove any of your claims but it would just be point scoring and have no real relevance. Ie - it is well documented that people that havent died of covid have been recorded as dying from it therefore covid is a con.
The 'fact' is true, the conclusion isn't. Exactly the same as the other facts and statistics being rolled out to support or disprove one side or the other. The conclusions drawn from them are nothing more than assumption.
That’s a very long winded statement to summarise the fact we all know that is statistics can always be presented in a number of ways...
The point I make is simple, if you work in any of the NHS trusts or indeed the care system you are aware the reality far exceeds the ‘recorded Covid-19 deaths’.
Unless you have been in every hospital and tallied every figure your 'point' is nothing more than the assumptions I refered to.
No it’s not, because every trust is obliged to record deaths in the same manner and using the same guidelines.
For example we have a number of patients who have passed through ICU on ventilation and overcome the virus essentially as they will swab clear during treatment. They may pass away despite the virus being gone simply through major organ failure due to the damage the virus has caused. These cases will not appear as a Covid 19 deaths, they will fall under whatever organ failure in the final reckoning.
Likewise the approach for patients in the care system was to not move them to a hospital environment in the early months. Testing was unavailable in the majority of homes and therefore those who passed away where simply filed under terminal copd, again they don’t contribute to the Covid-19 figures.
Your standpoint reminds me of the geniuses At KPMG who took over procurement of PPE during this crisis. Educated, Intelligent people with a single source of information. Sadly zero insight into the frontline, the working mechanisms, the central directives that change daily from Downing Street etc. In the same way as we rolled our eyes when boxes of the wrong grade face masks, turned up... 1/2 supplies of gloves as they counted an individual glove as 1 unit etc. When I read your delivery I do the same... fair assessment, well written and lots of logic but in honesty you don’t have a clue on the reality of the subject.
There’s a minor hospital in Manchester that has 1 confirmed Covid 19 death, the reality is 38 patients died on their Covid wards during the past 4 months, as part of the team who bagged them up I think I can say categorically they aren’t heresay. The hospital trust I am at currently has over 600 ‘grey area deaths’ over the period on top of a figure nearing 2000 confirmed. These are not insignificant discrepancies and they can’t be washed away with a sweeping statement from someone with zero first hand perspective of the systems in place or the reporting mechanism.
The priority of this government has always been to soften the figures... if we look at the % of our unconfirmed c19 deaths and apply that as an average across the national figures... shock horror, about an additional 20k which is pretty similar to the shift in average seasonal deaths so far this year still unaccounted for.
First of all, the entire reason for the review of the death toll is because ALL deaths that have had a positive test for covid at ANY point in time are included in the statistics. (In the extreme this could be someone that recovered 3 months ago and then
Got hit by a bus). This brings your claim about people being left out of the count because they swabbed clear after having it into serious doubt.
Drs and professors agree with this and i dont mean to be disrespectful but you having 'bagged up' some dead people doesnt qualify you to categorically state much.
https://www.theparliamentaryreview.co.uk/news/health-secretary-orders-review-into-covid-19-death-data
Once again... a little information, a huge decree of knowledge.
“The current counting methods”, tell me... how long have those current counting methods been in place Mr Expert on the subject? That’s your problem here... you’re sighting a few individual cases which are under question and using them to question what has been a horrific and under reported death toll.
And actually you are hugely disrespectful, there’s a huge number of people who have lost relatives, loved ones etc and for the sake of positioning yourself as some kind of authority on the subject you are sighting a ‘spin doctors’ polished statement from Matt Hancock.
I’ll happily admit I’m not a Tory, I’ll happily admit I never thought I would see a worst minister for health post Jeremy Hunt until Matt Hancock arrived... but I’ll also admit that any government you liked would have struggled with Covid-19, there is no perfect approach. That doesn’t change the fact that Covid-19 deaths have been massively under reported in this country (as probably every European country in truth). As we where told months ago by many “professors and doctors” we will only be able to see the real impact when we have enough data to review against the 5 year averages. Nothing has changed that fact, we have enough data in our hands now to do that and it clearly shows our figures are understated, they highlight the failings of Mr Hancock, his policies and approach.
Stating a handful of questionable entries doesn’t erase that, if you fail to see stories and statements like Mr Hancocks don’t have a political agenda then perhaps you lack the intellect I gave you credit for.
It is not 'fact' that deaths are under reported, it is your opinion. Pointing out that you are not qualified to state this opinion as fact is not disrespectful to those that have died and their familes. Trying to claim it as such is nonsense.
People that have tested positive for covid are recorded by the second generation surveillance system. Deaths are then checked against this list and anyone that has ever tested positive is added to the statistics for covid deaths. This isnt a method that begun part way through the current crisis and it includes eveyone that has been tested from day 1.
Even the claimed missing care home deaths where added retrospectively to the statistics on april 29th when the guidelines for recording them changed.
The inquiry into over reporting is prompted by oxford professors in conjunction with other professors s and is acknowledgedby the peoplebthat compile the statistics. If you want to dismiss this as political agenda then it just highlights your cognitive bias. The fact that you think you know better than these professors and statisticians is a glorious display of your own 'little information' leading to a 'huge decree of knowledge'.
Of course Professor Mellow Fellow... as you say we’ve probably just had a 20,000 surplus in Fatal DIY incidents. Couldn’t answer the question though could you?
Anyone in an NHS trust would tell you the scenario, heck watch the 2 part Hospital Covid special and see the coroners actually updating the records under Hancocks farcical system. It was, has been and still is an absolute joke.
Your use of evidence is so selective... an increase in home accidents, untreated illnesses becoming critical, suicide attempts... in a time where RTA’s Etc where at an all time low making that 20,000 surplus in effect far far higher... how come our A&Es where devoid of the usual levels of critical patients?
And the missing care home deaths where factored in on the 29th... lol, no the very few tested and confirmed cases where. That was an absolute fraction of the reality.
The last major update to recording deaths occurred less than 4 weeks ago... updates themselves are into double figures since the outbreak. Perhaps ask yourself why a very simple process needs so much tinkering during that time and you may start to understand the process and motivations a little better.
What question didn't i answer?
Its funny you criticise my use of evidence, all you do is give opinion without anything to back it up.
I gave examples of what COULD contribute towards excess deaths including irrefutable evidence of the variation and yearly increase in totals. It is very telling that everybody has avoided this point.
For the other reasons they are very possible and for example with suicides, there is the fact that half a million people have accesed one (of many) suicide prevention help programs during this crisis (as of may 18th) This is equal to the total amount of people using it in the preceeding years. It is not something to be dismissed.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52702048
You say you have the data to prove excess deaths are attributable to covid yet you dont show any, its not in the news and there are no professors parading it about. When this happens i might take it, and you seriously.
As the article says “investigation into the current counting methods”, my question was... how long have the “current” (very key phrase) counting methods been in place... I’ll give you a clue, about 3 weeks ago after the man launching the investigation signed the fuckers off for the umpteenth time.
As for proving anything to an armchair Covid strategist... I don’t need to. the surplus deaths are known figures, the registered suicides are known figures, accidental deaths are known figures.... this isn’t rocket science, google them all and do the maths then invent some other bollox to explain away 20k plus lives because all your examples are well documented within the figures. In short you are just waffling utter crap which isn’t even a possible answer.
I have every right to my opinion and it echoes the thoughts of all the team who I work with wether that’s ICU nurses, consultants, specialists in infectious diseases, clinical directors etc. Feel free to be obtuse as you like... the fact is I’ve lived the reality for months, whereas you have as much credibility as you would commenting on what it’s like to be a Para fighting in Afghanistan or wherever... you have zero insight into the reality, zero substance to your statement and simply grasp at a biased statement, worded by a spin doctor and released for the aid of political manoeuvre.
The current method of counting anyone that has tested positive in the death totals has been happening from the beginning. That is the specific method we are discussing and i answered accordingly. If you want to debate other aspects that contribute to the total you should specify and produce some evidence of your standpoint.
As we have already established you dont use evidence just opinion, heresay and ad hominem attacks, i wont be paying much heed to your opinions and obvious agenda.
Regardless of my perceived credibility this inquiry has been prompted by people with far more credibility than either of us - professors at the centre for EVIDENCE based medicine. It is acknowledged as an issue by the very people that compile the statistics and has enough credence to bring about an inquiry. It is worth noting that the centre of evidence based medicine is based at oxford university and works with the world health organisation but feel free to blame matt hancock and political agenda if it helps you feel superior.
As you say you are free to have your opinion and contrary to your accusations i haven't once tried to stop you, thats just "waffling utter crap" yourself, as is most of your posts. Emotive, diversionary waffle. Without substance but plenty of bias. "The irony of “mellow fellow”... I’ll admit I’ve got to the point where I am skim reading your replies as they are as tiresome and unrelated to the reality as the majority of Mr Hancocks statements. As for credibility I really don’t give a damn what your opinion is, there’s plenty of friends/people on these forums who know what I’ve done and continue to do during this epidemic. Heck if you are unfortunate enough to contract the virus and be hospitalised, have a life threading diy accident or attempt to take your own life we can probably meet face to face and continue the discussion. You’ve on a number of occasions tried to belittle statements which are firsthand, you do that from a position where actually you’ve not stepped foot in a hospital, you haven’t had to deal with distraught relatives, the patients, you’ve not had to work under the conditions of the pandemic, the policies and directives of Mr Hancock... in short, you actually know fuck all on the subject or the reality beyond what you’ve been spoon fed by a politically biased PR team desperately trying to maintain credibility in a disaster which they have contributed heavily too. The only thing you’ve established is you have fuck all understanding of the reality... sorry x | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one!
Could be some caused by not seeking treatment.
So 65,000 extra people have died because they didn’t seek treatment? These are deaths, over and above what we would normally expect in this country. All the ‘normal’ deaths still occurred in this period, yet we have a spike of 65,000 additional deaths.
Well, 45,000 of those excess deaths are due to covid. This leaves 20,000 for which there is a myriad of possible causes. Such as-
people not recieving the treatment they need (cancer patients, people having a heart attack but convincing themselves its something else to avoid hospital, ambulance staff being too busy to get to patients quickly enough to save their life etc).
The isolation could have caused many suicides
Elderly avoiding the hospitals and succumbing to other infections.
Diy accidents through everyone stuck at home wanting to get jobs done.
Etc etc.
Last point, though by no means insignificant. - the excess death figure is calculated from an 'average' number. The very nature of averaged means that there must have been a high figure, and a low. We could have had an extra 20,000 this year even if covid didn't exist.
Of course we could also been in a low year for (normal) deaths meaning that covid deaths are even higher than recorded but this just serves to confirm that using excess deaths figures is pointless without having the complete data set. In isolation it is just a meaningless number.
That’s a very hopeful outlook. it’s well documented that Covid 19 deaths in the care homes weren’t recorded for the first few months of the pandemic. If you worked in any hospital in the UK you would also see that the registering of deaths as Covid-19 isn’t hugely accurate to the reality. There’s a number of patients who aren’t recorded as C19 who in reality are, whether that be not tested prior to death or swabbed clear post infection but still die due to the damage the virus has done.
Its not hopeful, its factual and not supporting/implying a particular causation.
I am merely pointing out that using statistics without a complete understanding and consideration of the relevant data is meaningless.
Trying to use it as definitive proof is naive, possibly even deceptive.
I could easily take a 'fact' or statistic to disprove any of your claims but it would just be point scoring and have no real relevance. Ie - it is well documented that people that havent died of covid have been recorded as dying from it therefore covid is a con.
The 'fact' is true, the conclusion isn't. Exactly the same as the other facts and statistics being rolled out to support or disprove one side or the other. The conclusions drawn from them are nothing more than assumption.
That’s a very long winded statement to summarise the fact we all know that is statistics can always be presented in a number of ways...
The point I make is simple, if you work in any of the NHS trusts or indeed the care system you are aware the reality far exceeds the ‘recorded Covid-19 deaths’.
Unless you have been in every hospital and tallied every figure your 'point' is nothing more than the assumptions I refered to.
No it’s not, because every trust is obliged to record deaths in the same manner and using the same guidelines.
For example we have a number of patients who have passed through ICU on ventilation and overcome the virus essentially as they will swab clear during treatment. They may pass away despite the virus being gone simply through major organ failure due to the damage the virus has caused. These cases will not appear as a Covid 19 deaths, they will fall under whatever organ failure in the final reckoning.
Likewise the approach for patients in the care system was to not move them to a hospital environment in the early months. Testing was unavailable in the majority of homes and therefore those who passed away where simply filed under terminal copd, again they don’t contribute to the Covid-19 figures.
Your standpoint reminds me of the geniuses At KPMG who took over procurement of PPE during this crisis. Educated, Intelligent people with a single source of information. Sadly zero insight into the frontline, the working mechanisms, the central directives that change daily from Downing Street etc. In the same way as we rolled our eyes when boxes of the wrong grade face masks, turned up... 1/2 supplies of gloves as they counted an individual glove as 1 unit etc. When I read your delivery I do the same... fair assessment, well written and lots of logic but in honesty you don’t have a clue on the reality of the subject.
There’s a minor hospital in Manchester that has 1 confirmed Covid 19 death, the reality is 38 patients died on their Covid wards during the past 4 months, as part of the team who bagged them up I think I can say categorically they aren’t heresay. The hospital trust I am at currently has over 600 ‘grey area deaths’ over the period on top of a figure nearing 2000 confirmed. These are not insignificant discrepancies and they can’t be washed away with a sweeping statement from someone with zero first hand perspective of the systems in place or the reporting mechanism.
The priority of this government has always been to soften the figures... if we look at the % of our unconfirmed c19 deaths and apply that as an average across the national figures... shock horror, about an additional 20k which is pretty similar to the shift in average seasonal deaths so far this year still unaccounted for.
First of all, the entire reason for the review of the death toll is because ALL deaths that have had a positive test for covid at ANY point in time are included in the statistics. (In the extreme this could be someone that recovered 3 months ago and then
Got hit by a bus). This brings your claim about people being left out of the count because they swabbed clear after having it into serious doubt.
Drs and professors agree with this and i dont mean to be disrespectful but you having 'bagged up' some dead people doesnt qualify you to categorically state much.
https://www.theparliamentaryreview.co.uk/news/health-secretary-orders-review-into-covid-19-death-data
Once again... a little information, a huge decree of knowledge.
“The current counting methods”, tell me... how long have those current counting methods been in place Mr Expert on the subject? That’s your problem here... you’re sighting a few individual cases which are under question and using them to question what has been a horrific and under reported death toll.
And actually you are hugely disrespectful, there’s a huge number of people who have lost relatives, loved ones etc and for the sake of positioning yourself as some kind of authority on the subject you are sighting a ‘spin doctors’ polished statement from Matt Hancock.
I’ll happily admit I’m not a Tory, I’ll happily admit I never thought I would see a worst minister for health post Jeremy Hunt until Matt Hancock arrived... but I’ll also admit that any government you liked would have struggled with Covid-19, there is no perfect approach. That doesn’t change the fact that Covid-19 deaths have been massively under reported in this country (as probably every European country in truth). As we where told months ago by many “professors and doctors” we will only be able to see the real impact when we have enough data to review against the 5 year averages. Nothing has changed that fact, we have enough data in our hands now to do that and it clearly shows our figures are understated, they highlight the failings of Mr Hancock, his policies and approach.
Stating a handful of questionable entries doesn’t erase that, if you fail to see stories and statements like Mr Hancocks don’t have a political agenda then perhaps you lack the intellect I gave you credit for.
It is not 'fact' that deaths are under reported, it is your opinion. Pointing out that you are not qualified to state this opinion as fact is not disrespectful to those that have died and their familes. Trying to claim it as such is nonsense.
People that have tested positive for covid are recorded by the second generation surveillance system. Deaths are then checked against this list and anyone that has ever tested positive is added to the statistics for covid deaths. This isnt a method that begun part way through the current crisis and it includes eveyone that has been tested from day 1.
Even the claimed missing care home deaths where added retrospectively to the statistics on april 29th when the guidelines for recording them changed.
The inquiry into over reporting is prompted by oxford professors in conjunction with other professors s and is acknowledgedby the peoplebthat compile the statistics. If you want to dismiss this as political agenda then it just highlights your cognitive bias. The fact that you think you know better than these professors and statisticians is a glorious display of your own 'little information' leading to a 'huge decree of knowledge'.
Of course Professor Mellow Fellow... as you say we’ve probably just had a 20,000 surplus in Fatal DIY incidents. Couldn’t answer the question though could you?
Anyone in an NHS trust would tell you the scenario, heck watch the 2 part Hospital Covid special and see the coroners actually updating the records under Hancocks farcical system. It was, has been and still is an absolute joke.
Your use of evidence is so selective... an increase in home accidents, untreated illnesses becoming critical, suicide attempts... in a time where RTA’s Etc where at an all time low making that 20,000 surplus in effect far far higher... how come our A&Es where devoid of the usual levels of critical patients?
And the missing care home deaths where factored in on the 29th... lol, no the very few tested and confirmed cases where. That was an absolute fraction of the reality.
The last major update to recording deaths occurred less than 4 weeks ago... updates themselves are into double figures since the outbreak. Perhaps ask yourself why a very simple process needs so much tinkering during that time and you may start to understand the process and motivations a little better.
What question didn't i answer?
Its funny you criticise my use of evidence, all you do is give opinion without anything to back it up.
I gave examples of what COULD contribute towards excess deaths including irrefutable evidence of the variation and yearly increase in totals. It is very telling that everybody has avoided this point.
For the other reasons they are very possible and for example with suicides, there is the fact that half a million people have accesed one (of many) suicide prevention help programs during this crisis (as of may 18th) This is equal to the total amount of people using it in the preceeding years. It is not something to be dismissed.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52702048
You say you have the data to prove excess deaths are attributable to covid yet you dont show any, its not in the news and there are no professors parading it about. When this happens i might take it, and you seriously.
As the article says “investigation into the current counting methods”, my question was... how long have the “current” (very key phrase) counting methods been in place... I’ll give you a clue, about 3 weeks ago after the man launching the investigation signed the fuckers off for the umpteenth time.
As for proving anything to an armchair Covid strategist... I don’t need to. the surplus deaths are known figures, the registered suicides are known figures, accidental deaths are known figures.... this isn’t rocket science, google them all and do the maths then invent some other bollox to explain away 20k plus lives because all your examples are well documented within the figures. In short you are just waffling utter crap which isn’t even a possible answer.
I have every right to my opinion and it echoes the thoughts of all the team who I work with wether that’s ICU nurses, consultants, specialists in infectious diseases, clinical directors etc. Feel free to be obtuse as you like... the fact is I’ve lived the reality for months, whereas you have as much credibility as you would commenting on what it’s like to be a Para fighting in Afghanistan or wherever... you have zero insight into the reality, zero substance to your statement and simply grasp at a biased statement, worded by a spin doctor and released for the aid of political manoeuvre.
The current method of counting anyone that has tested positive in the death totals has been happening from the beginning. That is the specific method we are discussing and i answered accordingly. If you want to debate other aspects that contribute to the total you should specify and produce some evidence of your standpoint.
As we have already established you dont use evidence just opinion, heresay and ad hominem attacks, i wont be paying much heed to your opinions and obvious agenda.
Regardless of my perceived credibility this inquiry has been prompted by people with far more credibility than either of us - professors at the centre for EVIDENCE based medicine. It is acknowledged as an issue by the very people that compile the statistics and has enough credence to bring about an inquiry. It is worth noting that the centre of evidence based medicine is based at oxford university and works with the world health organisation but feel free to blame matt hancock and political agenda if it helps you feel superior.
As you say you are free to have your opinion and contrary to your accusations i haven't once tried to stop you, thats just "waffling utter crap" yourself, as is most of your posts. Emotive, diversionary waffle. Without substance but plenty of bias.
The irony of “mellow fellow”... I’ll admit I’ve got to the point where I am skim reading your replies as they are as tiresome and unrelated to the reality as the majority of Mr Hancocks statements.
As for credibility I really don’t give a damn what your opinion is, there’s plenty of friends/people on these forums who know what I’ve done and continue to do during this epidemic. Heck if you are unfortunate enough to contract the virus and be hospitalised, have a life threading diy accident or attempt to take your own life we can probably meet face to face and continue the discussion.
You’ve on a number of occasions tried to belittle statements which are firsthand, you do that from a position where actually you’ve not stepped foot in a hospital, you haven’t had to deal with distraught relatives, the patients, you’ve not had to work under the conditions of the pandemic, the policies and directives of Mr Hancock... in short, you actually know fuck all on the subject or the reality beyond what you’ve been spoon fed by a politically biased PR team desperately trying to maintain credibility in a disaster which they have contributed heavily too.
The only thing you’ve established is you have fuck all understanding of the reality... sorry x
"Irony is you calling me "mr smarty pants", "armchair strategist", "professor mellow fellow" and so on and then crying that i am "belittling" you
Im sorry if me providing evidence makes you feel inferior however that is your problem, not mine. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The stories of I work at hospital and we had to blame covid for deaths are urban myths. Always the source is my mates sister or my neighbours cousin told me. I asked a doctor I know from the local hospital he said they were discouraged to blame covid . The penny drops when people realise this government are a shower of shit. " 56% of us knew that in December last year. What's unbelievable is that so few people are still supporting the government despite the fact that corbyn is no longer the alternative and the government has handled covid19 so badly. No doubt the Russian report release will make no difference to the opinions of so many. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one!
Could be some caused by not seeking treatment.
So 65,000 extra people have died because they didn’t seek treatment? These are deaths, over and above what we would normally expect in this country. All the ‘normal’ deaths still occurred in this period, yet we have a spike of 65,000 additional deaths.
Well, 45,000 of those excess deaths are due to covid. This leaves 20,000 for which there is a myriad of possible causes. Such as-
people not recieving the treatment they need (cancer patients, people having a heart attack but convincing themselves its something else to avoid hospital, ambulance staff being too busy to get to patients quickly enough to save their life etc).
The isolation could have caused many suicides
Elderly avoiding the hospitals and succumbing to other infections.
Diy accidents through everyone stuck at home wanting to get jobs done.
Etc etc.
Last point, though by no means insignificant. - the excess death figure is calculated from an 'average' number. The very nature of averaged means that there must have been a high figure, and a low. We could have had an extra 20,000 this year even if covid didn't exist.
Of course we could also been in a low year for (normal) deaths meaning that covid deaths are even higher than recorded but this just serves to confirm that using excess deaths figures is pointless without having the complete data set. In isolation it is just a meaningless number.
That’s a very hopeful outlook. it’s well documented that Covid 19 deaths in the care homes weren’t recorded for the first few months of the pandemic. If you worked in any hospital in the UK you would also see that the registering of deaths as Covid-19 isn’t hugely accurate to the reality. There’s a number of patients who aren’t recorded as C19 who in reality are, whether that be not tested prior to death or swabbed clear post infection but still die due to the damage the virus has done.
Its not hopeful, its factual and not supporting/implying a particular causation.
I am merely pointing out that using statistics without a complete understanding and consideration of the relevant data is meaningless.
Trying to use it as definitive proof is naive, possibly even deceptive.
I could easily take a 'fact' or statistic to disprove any of your claims but it would just be point scoring and have no real relevance. Ie - it is well documented that people that havent died of covid have been recorded as dying from it therefore covid is a con.
The 'fact' is true, the conclusion isn't. Exactly the same as the other facts and statistics being rolled out to support or disprove one side or the other. The conclusions drawn from them are nothing more than assumption.
That’s a very long winded statement to summarise the fact we all know that is statistics can always be presented in a number of ways...
The point I make is simple, if you work in any of the NHS trusts or indeed the care system you are aware the reality far exceeds the ‘recorded Covid-19 deaths’.
Unless you have been in every hospital and tallied every figure your 'point' is nothing more than the assumptions I refered to.
No it’s not, because every trust is obliged to record deaths in the same manner and using the same guidelines.
For example we have a number of patients who have passed through ICU on ventilation and overcome the virus essentially as they will swab clear during treatment. They may pass away despite the virus being gone simply through major organ failure due to the damage the virus has caused. These cases will not appear as a Covid 19 deaths, they will fall under whatever organ failure in the final reckoning.
Likewise the approach for patients in the care system was to not move them to a hospital environment in the early months. Testing was unavailable in the majority of homes and therefore those who passed away where simply filed under terminal copd, again they don’t contribute to the Covid-19 figures.
Your standpoint reminds me of the geniuses At KPMG who took over procurement of PPE during this crisis. Educated, Intelligent people with a single source of information. Sadly zero insight into the frontline, the working mechanisms, the central directives that change daily from Downing Street etc. In the same way as we rolled our eyes when boxes of the wrong grade face masks, turned up... 1/2 supplies of gloves as they counted an individual glove as 1 unit etc. When I read your delivery I do the same... fair assessment, well written and lots of logic but in honesty you don’t have a clue on the reality of the subject.
There’s a minor hospital in Manchester that has 1 confirmed Covid 19 death, the reality is 38 patients died on their Covid wards during the past 4 months, as part of the team who bagged them up I think I can say categorically they aren’t heresay. The hospital trust I am at currently has over 600 ‘grey area deaths’ over the period on top of a figure nearing 2000 confirmed. These are not insignificant discrepancies and they can’t be washed away with a sweeping statement from someone with zero first hand perspective of the systems in place or the reporting mechanism.
The priority of this government has always been to soften the figures... if we look at the % of our unconfirmed c19 deaths and apply that as an average across the national figures... shock horror, about an additional 20k which is pretty similar to the shift in average seasonal deaths so far this year still unaccounted for.
First of all, the entire reason for the review of the death toll is because ALL deaths that have had a positive test for covid at ANY point in time are included in the statistics. (In the extreme this could be someone that recovered 3 months ago and then
Got hit by a bus). This brings your claim about people being left out of the count because they swabbed clear after having it into serious doubt.
Drs and professors agree with this and i dont mean to be disrespectful but you having 'bagged up' some dead people doesnt qualify you to categorically state much.
https://www.theparliamentaryreview.co.uk/news/health-secretary-orders-review-into-covid-19-death-data
Once again... a little information, a huge decree of knowledge.
“The current counting methods”, tell me... how long have those current counting methods been in place Mr Expert on the subject? That’s your problem here... you’re sighting a few individual cases which are under question and using them to question what has been a horrific and under reported death toll.
And actually you are hugely disrespectful, there’s a huge number of people who have lost relatives, loved ones etc and for the sake of positioning yourself as some kind of authority on the subject you are sighting a ‘spin doctors’ polished statement from Matt Hancock.
I’ll happily admit I’m not a Tory, I’ll happily admit I never thought I would see a worst minister for health post Jeremy Hunt until Matt Hancock arrived... but I’ll also admit that any government you liked would have struggled with Covid-19, there is no perfect approach. That doesn’t change the fact that Covid-19 deaths have been massively under reported in this country (as probably every European country in truth). As we where told months ago by many “professors and doctors” we will only be able to see the real impact when we have enough data to review against the 5 year averages. Nothing has changed that fact, we have enough data in our hands now to do that and it clearly shows our figures are understated, they highlight the failings of Mr Hancock, his policies and approach.
Stating a handful of questionable entries doesn’t erase that, if you fail to see stories and statements like Mr Hancocks don’t have a political agenda then perhaps you lack the intellect I gave you credit for.
It is not 'fact' that deaths are under reported, it is your opinion. Pointing out that you are not qualified to state this opinion as fact is not disrespectful to those that have died and their familes. Trying to claim it as such is nonsense.
People that have tested positive for covid are recorded by the second generation surveillance system. Deaths are then checked against this list and anyone that has ever tested positive is added to the statistics for covid deaths. This isnt a method that begun part way through the current crisis and it includes eveyone that has been tested from day 1.
Even the claimed missing care home deaths where added retrospectively to the statistics on april 29th when the guidelines for recording them changed.
The inquiry into over reporting is prompted by oxford professors in conjunction with other professors s and is acknowledgedby the peoplebthat compile the statistics. If you want to dismiss this as political agenda then it just highlights your cognitive bias. The fact that you think you know better than these professors and statisticians is a glorious display of your own 'little information' leading to a 'huge decree of knowledge'.
Of course Professor Mellow Fellow... as you say we’ve probably just had a 20,000 surplus in Fatal DIY incidents. Couldn’t answer the question though could you?
Anyone in an NHS trust would tell you the scenario, heck watch the 2 part Hospital Covid special and see the coroners actually updating the records under Hancocks farcical system. It was, has been and still is an absolute joke.
Your use of evidence is so selective... an increase in home accidents, untreated illnesses becoming critical, suicide attempts... in a time where RTA’s Etc where at an all time low making that 20,000 surplus in effect far far higher... how come our A&Es where devoid of the usual levels of critical patients?
And the missing care home deaths where factored in on the 29th... lol, no the very few tested and confirmed cases where. That was an absolute fraction of the reality.
The last major update to recording deaths occurred less than 4 weeks ago... updates themselves are into double figures since the outbreak. Perhaps ask yourself why a very simple process needs so much tinkering during that time and you may start to understand the process and motivations a little better.
What question didn't i answer?
Its funny you criticise my use of evidence, all you do is give opinion without anything to back it up.
I gave examples of what COULD contribute towards excess deaths including irrefutable evidence of the variation and yearly increase in totals. It is very telling that everybody has avoided this point.
For the other reasons they are very possible and for example with suicides, there is the fact that half a million people have accesed one (of many) suicide prevention help programs during this crisis (as of may 18th) This is equal to the total amount of people using it in the preceeding years. It is not something to be dismissed.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52702048
You say you have the data to prove excess deaths are attributable to covid yet you dont show any, its not in the news and there are no professors parading it about. When this happens i might take it, and you seriously.
As the article says “investigation into the current counting methods”, my question was... how long have the “current” (very key phrase) counting methods been in place... I’ll give you a clue, about 3 weeks ago after the man launching the investigation signed the fuckers off for the umpteenth time.
As for proving anything to an armchair Covid strategist... I don’t need to. the surplus deaths are known figures, the registered suicides are known figures, accidental deaths are known figures.... this isn’t rocket science, google them all and do the maths then invent some other bollox to explain away 20k plus lives because all your examples are well documented within the figures. In short you are just waffling utter crap which isn’t even a possible answer.
I have every right to my opinion and it echoes the thoughts of all the team who I work with wether that’s ICU nurses, consultants, specialists in infectious diseases, clinical directors etc. Feel free to be obtuse as you like... the fact is I’ve lived the reality for months, whereas you have as much credibility as you would commenting on what it’s like to be a Para fighting in Afghanistan or wherever... you have zero insight into the reality, zero substance to your statement and simply grasp at a biased statement, worded by a spin doctor and released for the aid of political manoeuvre.
The current method of counting anyone that has tested positive in the death totals has been happening from the beginning. That is the specific method we are discussing and i answered accordingly. If you want to debate other aspects that contribute to the total you should specify and produce some evidence of your standpoint.
As we have already established you dont use evidence just opinion, heresay and ad hominem attacks, i wont be paying much heed to your opinions and obvious agenda.
Regardless of my perceived credibility this inquiry has been prompted by people with far more credibility than either of us - professors at the centre for EVIDENCE based medicine. It is acknowledged as an issue by the very people that compile the statistics and has enough credence to bring about an inquiry. It is worth noting that the centre of evidence based medicine is based at oxford university and works with the world health organisation but feel free to blame matt hancock and political agenda if it helps you feel superior.
As you say you are free to have your opinion and contrary to your accusations i haven't once tried to stop you, thats just "waffling utter crap" yourself, as is most of your posts. Emotive, diversionary waffle. Without substance but plenty of bias.
The irony of “mellow fellow”... I’ll admit I’ve got to the point where I am skim reading your replies as they are as tiresome and unrelated to the reality as the majority of Mr Hancocks statements.
As for credibility I really don’t give a damn what your opinion is, there’s plenty of friends/people on these forums who know what I’ve done and continue to do during this epidemic. Heck if you are unfortunate enough to contract the virus and be hospitalised, have a life threading diy accident or attempt to take your own life we can probably meet face to face and continue the discussion.
You’ve on a number of occasions tried to belittle statements which are firsthand, you do that from a position where actually you’ve not stepped foot in a hospital, you haven’t had to deal with distraught relatives, the patients, you’ve not had to work under the conditions of the pandemic, the policies and directives of Mr Hancock... in short, you actually know fuck all on the subject or the reality beyond what you’ve been spoon fed by a politically biased PR team desperately trying to maintain credibility in a disaster which they have contributed heavily too.
The only thing you’ve established is you have fuck all understanding of the reality... sorry x
Irony is you calling me "mr smarty pants", "armchair strategist", "professor mellow fellow" and so on and then crying that i am "belittling" you
Im sorry if me providing evidence makes you feel inferior however that is your problem, not mine. "“Mr smarty pants”? I suggest you consult your sources as it seems you’re now making shit up fella. Crying... fair point, I’ve done a bit of that during the last 5 months, it’s not something I see as a weakness but I would probably caveat it’s something I reserve for life’s more challenging moments, not some self appointed forum hero. As for you making me feel inferior... how exactly does that work? What do you have that I am in awe of? I’ve read your posts, looked at your profile... I don’t see it. I said your approach is belittling. To suggest people’s deaths are a work of fiction to someone who’s through choice dealt with them says a lot about your humanity, it says a lot about your general nature as a person. It may come as a shock to you but after 3 decades living a trans lifestyle I’ve experienced a fair amount of males trying to put me down, humiliate, belittle, bully or whatever term you wish to use. I can assure you your impact on me personally is a very big zero. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one!
Could be some caused by not seeking treatment.
So 65,000 extra people have died because they didn’t seek treatment? These are deaths, over and above what we would normally expect in this country. All the ‘normal’ deaths still occurred in this period, yet we have a spike of 65,000 additional deaths.
Well, 45,000 of those excess deaths are due to covid. This leaves 20,000 for which there is a myriad of possible causes. Such as-
people not recieving the treatment they need (cancer patients, people having a heart attack but convincing themselves its something else to avoid hospital, ambulance staff being too busy to get to patients quickly enough to save their life etc).
The isolation could have caused many suicides
Elderly avoiding the hospitals and succumbing to other infections.
Diy accidents through everyone stuck at home wanting to get jobs done.
Etc etc.
Last point, though by no means insignificant. - the excess death figure is calculated from an 'average' number. The very nature of averaged means that there must have been a high figure, and a low. We could have had an extra 20,000 this year even if covid didn't exist.
Of course we could also been in a low year for (normal) deaths meaning that covid deaths are even higher than recorded but this just serves to confirm that using excess deaths figures is pointless without having the complete data set. In isolation it is just a meaningless number.
That’s a very hopeful outlook. it’s well documented that Covid 19 deaths in the care homes weren’t recorded for the first few months of the pandemic. If you worked in any hospital in the UK you would also see that the registering of deaths as Covid-19 isn’t hugely accurate to the reality. There’s a number of patients who aren’t recorded as C19 who in reality are, whether that be not tested prior to death or swabbed clear post infection but still die due to the damage the virus has done.
Its not hopeful, its factual and not supporting/implying a particular causation.
I am merely pointing out that using statistics without a complete understanding and consideration of the relevant data is meaningless.
Trying to use it as definitive proof is naive, possibly even deceptive.
I could easily take a 'fact' or statistic to disprove any of your claims but it would just be point scoring and have no real relevance. Ie - it is well documented that people that havent died of covid have been recorded as dying from it therefore covid is a con.
The 'fact' is true, the conclusion isn't. Exactly the same as the other facts and statistics being rolled out to support or disprove one side or the other. The conclusions drawn from them are nothing more than assumption.
That’s a very long winded statement to summarise the fact we all know that is statistics can always be presented in a number of ways...
The point I make is simple, if you work in any of the NHS trusts or indeed the care system you are aware the reality far exceeds the ‘recorded Covid-19 deaths’.
Unless you have been in every hospital and tallied every figure your 'point' is nothing more than the assumptions I refered to.
No it’s not, because every trust is obliged to record deaths in the same manner and using the same guidelines.
For example we have a number of patients who have passed through ICU on ventilation and overcome the virus essentially as they will swab clear during treatment. They may pass away despite the virus being gone simply through major organ failure due to the damage the virus has caused. These cases will not appear as a Covid 19 deaths, they will fall under whatever organ failure in the final reckoning.
Likewise the approach for patients in the care system was to not move them to a hospital environment in the early months. Testing was unavailable in the majority of homes and therefore those who passed away where simply filed under terminal copd, again they don’t contribute to the Covid-19 figures.
Your standpoint reminds me of the geniuses At KPMG who took over procurement of PPE during this crisis. Educated, Intelligent people with a single source of information. Sadly zero insight into the frontline, the working mechanisms, the central directives that change daily from Downing Street etc. In the same way as we rolled our eyes when boxes of the wrong grade face masks, turned up... 1/2 supplies of gloves as they counted an individual glove as 1 unit etc. When I read your delivery I do the same... fair assessment, well written and lots of logic but in honesty you don’t have a clue on the reality of the subject.
There’s a minor hospital in Manchester that has 1 confirmed Covid 19 death, the reality is 38 patients died on their Covid wards during the past 4 months, as part of the team who bagged them up I think I can say categorically they aren’t heresay. The hospital trust I am at currently has over 600 ‘grey area deaths’ over the period on top of a figure nearing 2000 confirmed. These are not insignificant discrepancies and they can’t be washed away with a sweeping statement from someone with zero first hand perspective of the systems in place or the reporting mechanism.
The priority of this government has always been to soften the figures... if we look at the % of our unconfirmed c19 deaths and apply that as an average across the national figures... shock horror, about an additional 20k which is pretty similar to the shift in average seasonal deaths so far this year still unaccounted for.
First of all, the entire reason for the review of the death toll is because ALL deaths that have had a positive test for covid at ANY point in time are included in the statistics. (In the extreme this could be someone that recovered 3 months ago and then
Got hit by a bus). This brings your claim about people being left out of the count because they swabbed clear after having it into serious doubt.
Drs and professors agree with this and i dont mean to be disrespectful but you having 'bagged up' some dead people doesnt qualify you to categorically state much.
https://www.theparliamentaryreview.co.uk/news/health-secretary-orders-review-into-covid-19-death-data
Once again... a little information, a huge decree of knowledge.
“The current counting methods”, tell me... how long have those current counting methods been in place Mr Expert on the subject? That’s your problem here... you’re sighting a few individual cases which are under question and using them to question what has been a horrific and under reported death toll.
And actually you are hugely disrespectful, there’s a huge number of people who have lost relatives, loved ones etc and for the sake of positioning yourself as some kind of authority on the subject you are sighting a ‘spin doctors’ polished statement from Matt Hancock.
I’ll happily admit I’m not a Tory, I’ll happily admit I never thought I would see a worst minister for health post Jeremy Hunt until Matt Hancock arrived... but I’ll also admit that any government you liked would have struggled with Covid-19, there is no perfect approach. That doesn’t change the fact that Covid-19 deaths have been massively under reported in this country (as probably every European country in truth). As we where told months ago by many “professors and doctors” we will only be able to see the real impact when we have enough data to review against the 5 year averages. Nothing has changed that fact, we have enough data in our hands now to do that and it clearly shows our figures are understated, they highlight the failings of Mr Hancock, his policies and approach.
Stating a handful of questionable entries doesn’t erase that, if you fail to see stories and statements like Mr Hancocks don’t have a political agenda then perhaps you lack the intellect I gave you credit for.
It is not 'fact' that deaths are under reported, it is your opinion. Pointing out that you are not qualified to state this opinion as fact is not disrespectful to those that have died and their familes. Trying to claim it as such is nonsense.
People that have tested positive for covid are recorded by the second generation surveillance system. Deaths are then checked against this list and anyone that has ever tested positive is added to the statistics for covid deaths. This isnt a method that begun part way through the current crisis and it includes eveyone that has been tested from day 1.
Even the claimed missing care home deaths where added retrospectively to the statistics on april 29th when the guidelines for recording them changed.
The inquiry into over reporting is prompted by oxford professors in conjunction with other professors s and is acknowledgedby the peoplebthat compile the statistics. If you want to dismiss this as political agenda then it just highlights your cognitive bias. The fact that you think you know better than these professors and statisticians is a glorious display of your own 'little information' leading to a 'huge decree of knowledge'.
Of course Professor Mellow Fellow... as you say we’ve probably just had a 20,000 surplus in Fatal DIY incidents. Couldn’t answer the question though could you?
Anyone in an NHS trust would tell you the scenario, heck watch the 2 part Hospital Covid special and see the coroners actually updating the records under Hancocks farcical system. It was, has been and still is an absolute joke.
Your use of evidence is so selective... an increase in home accidents, untreated illnesses becoming critical, suicide attempts... in a time where RTA’s Etc where at an all time low making that 20,000 surplus in effect far far higher... how come our A&Es where devoid of the usual levels of critical patients?
And the missing care home deaths where factored in on the 29th... lol, no the very few tested and confirmed cases where. That was an absolute fraction of the reality.
The last major update to recording deaths occurred less than 4 weeks ago... updates themselves are into double figures since the outbreak. Perhaps ask yourself why a very simple process needs so much tinkering during that time and you may start to understand the process and motivations a little better.
What question didn't i answer?
Its funny you criticise my use of evidence, all you do is give opinion without anything to back it up.
I gave examples of what COULD contribute towards excess deaths including irrefutable evidence of the variation and yearly increase in totals. It is very telling that everybody has avoided this point.
For the other reasons they are very possible and for example with suicides, there is the fact that half a million people have accesed one (of many) suicide prevention help programs during this crisis (as of may 18th) This is equal to the total amount of people using it in the preceeding years. It is not something to be dismissed.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52702048
You say you have the data to prove excess deaths are attributable to covid yet you dont show any, its not in the news and there are no professors parading it about. When this happens i might take it, and you seriously.
As the article says “investigation into the current counting methods”, my question was... how long have the “current” (very key phrase) counting methods been in place... I’ll give you a clue, about 3 weeks ago after the man launching the investigation signed the fuckers off for the umpteenth time.
As for proving anything to an armchair Covid strategist... I don’t need to. the surplus deaths are known figures, the registered suicides are known figures, accidental deaths are known figures.... this isn’t rocket science, google them all and do the maths then invent some other bollox to explain away 20k plus lives because all your examples are well documented within the figures. In short you are just waffling utter crap which isn’t even a possible answer.
I have every right to my opinion and it echoes the thoughts of all the team who I work with wether that’s ICU nurses, consultants, specialists in infectious diseases, clinical directors etc. Feel free to be obtuse as you like... the fact is I’ve lived the reality for months, whereas you have as much credibility as you would commenting on what it’s like to be a Para fighting in Afghanistan or wherever... you have zero insight into the reality, zero substance to your statement and simply grasp at a biased statement, worded by a spin doctor and released for the aid of political manoeuvre.
The current method of counting anyone that has tested positive in the death totals has been happening from the beginning. That is the specific method we are discussing and i answered accordingly. If you want to debate other aspects that contribute to the total you should specify and produce some evidence of your standpoint.
As we have already established you dont use evidence just opinion, heresay and ad hominem attacks, i wont be paying much heed to your opinions and obvious agenda.
Regardless of my perceived credibility this inquiry has been prompted by people with far more credibility than either of us - professors at the centre for EVIDENCE based medicine. It is acknowledged as an issue by the very people that compile the statistics and has enough credence to bring about an inquiry. It is worth noting that the centre of evidence based medicine is based at oxford university and works with the world health organisation but feel free to blame matt hancock and political agenda if it helps you feel superior.
As you say you are free to have your opinion and contrary to your accusations i haven't once tried to stop you, thats just "waffling utter crap" yourself, as is most of your posts. Emotive, diversionary waffle. Without substance but plenty of bias.
The irony of “mellow fellow”... I’ll admit I’ve got to the point where I am skim reading your replies as they are as tiresome and unrelated to the reality as the majority of Mr Hancocks statements.
As for credibility I really don’t give a damn what your opinion is, there’s plenty of friends/people on these forums who know what I’ve done and continue to do during this epidemic. Heck if you are unfortunate enough to contract the virus and be hospitalised, have a life threading diy accident or attempt to take your own life we can probably meet face to face and continue the discussion.
You’ve on a number of occasions tried to belittle statements which are firsthand, you do that from a position where actually you’ve not stepped foot in a hospital, you haven’t had to deal with distraught relatives, the patients, you’ve not had to work under the conditions of the pandemic, the policies and directives of Mr Hancock... in short, you actually know fuck all on the subject or the reality beyond what you’ve been spoon fed by a politically biased PR team desperately trying to maintain credibility in a disaster which they have contributed heavily too.
The only thing you’ve established is you have fuck all understanding of the reality... sorry x
Irony is you calling me "mr smarty pants", "armchair strategist", "professor mellow fellow" and so on and then crying that i am "belittling" you
Im sorry if me providing evidence makes you feel inferior however that is your problem, not mine.
“Mr smarty pants”? I suggest you consult your sources as it seems you’re now making shit up fella.
Crying... fair point, I’ve done a bit of that during the last 5 months, it’s not something I see as a weakness but I would probably caveat it’s something I reserve for life’s more challenging moments, not some self appointed forum hero.
As for you making me feel inferior... how exactly does that work? What do you have that I am in awe of? I’ve read your posts, looked at your profile... I don’t see it.
I said your approach is belittling. To suggest people’s deaths are a work of fiction to someone who’s through choice dealt with them says a lot about your humanity, it says a lot about your general nature as a person. It may come as a shock to you but after 3 decades living a trans lifestyle I’ve experienced a fair amount of males trying to put me down, humiliate, belittle, bully or whatever term you wish to use.
I can assure you your impact on me personally is a very big zero.
"Fair enough, it was "mr expert" not smarty pants. I guess i lost track of the names and insults you dish out. As for making shit up, that's your forte, alongside playing the victim, hypocrisy and belittling others yourself. This says a lot about YOUR general nature. I haven't belittled you, said the deaths are a work of fiction or made one reference to you being trans. You know what i meant when I said you are crying about me 'belittling' you and as always you try to manipulate it for the sympathy vote. It is pathetic. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one!
Could be some caused by not seeking treatment.
So 65,000 extra people have died because they didn’t seek treatment? These are deaths, over and above what we would normally expect in this country. All the ‘normal’ deaths still occurred in this period, yet we have a spike of 65,000 additional deaths.
Well, 45,000 of those excess deaths are due to covid. This leaves 20,000 for which there is a myriad of possible causes. Such as-
people not recieving the treatment they need (cancer patients, people having a heart attack but convincing themselves its something else to avoid hospital, ambulance staff being too busy to get to patients quickly enough to save their life etc).
The isolation could have caused many suicides
Elderly avoiding the hospitals and succumbing to other infections.
Diy accidents through everyone stuck at home wanting to get jobs done.
Etc etc.
Last point, though by no means insignificant. - the excess death figure is calculated from an 'average' number. The very nature of averaged means that there must have been a high figure, and a low. We could have had an extra 20,000 this year even if covid didn't exist.
Of course we could also been in a low year for (normal) deaths meaning that covid deaths are even higher than recorded but this just serves to confirm that using excess deaths figures is pointless without having the complete data set. In isolation it is just a meaningless number.
That’s a very hopeful outlook. it’s well documented that Covid 19 deaths in the care homes weren’t recorded for the first few months of the pandemic. If you worked in any hospital in the UK you would also see that the registering of deaths as Covid-19 isn’t hugely accurate to the reality. There’s a number of patients who aren’t recorded as C19 who in reality are, whether that be not tested prior to death or swabbed clear post infection but still die due to the damage the virus has done.
Its not hopeful, its factual and not supporting/implying a particular causation.
I am merely pointing out that using statistics without a complete understanding and consideration of the relevant data is meaningless.
Trying to use it as definitive proof is naive, possibly even deceptive.
I could easily take a 'fact' or statistic to disprove any of your claims but it would just be point scoring and have no real relevance. Ie - it is well documented that people that havent died of covid have been recorded as dying from it therefore covid is a con.
The 'fact' is true, the conclusion isn't. Exactly the same as the other facts and statistics being rolled out to support or disprove one side or the other. The conclusions drawn from them are nothing more than assumption.
That’s a very long winded statement to summarise the fact we all know that is statistics can always be presented in a number of ways...
The point I make is simple, if you work in any of the NHS trusts or indeed the care system you are aware the reality far exceeds the ‘recorded Covid-19 deaths’.
Unless you have been in every hospital and tallied every figure your 'point' is nothing more than the assumptions I refered to.
No it’s not, because every trust is obliged to record deaths in the same manner and using the same guidelines.
For example we have a number of patients who have passed through ICU on ventilation and overcome the virus essentially as they will swab clear during treatment. They may pass away despite the virus being gone simply through major organ failure due to the damage the virus has caused. These cases will not appear as a Covid 19 deaths, they will fall under whatever organ failure in the final reckoning.
Likewise the approach for patients in the care system was to not move them to a hospital environment in the early months. Testing was unavailable in the majority of homes and therefore those who passed away where simply filed under terminal copd, again they don’t contribute to the Covid-19 figures.
Your standpoint reminds me of the geniuses At KPMG who took over procurement of PPE during this crisis. Educated, Intelligent people with a single source of information. Sadly zero insight into the frontline, the working mechanisms, the central directives that change daily from Downing Street etc. In the same way as we rolled our eyes when boxes of the wrong grade face masks, turned up... 1/2 supplies of gloves as they counted an individual glove as 1 unit etc. When I read your delivery I do the same... fair assessment, well written and lots of logic but in honesty you don’t have a clue on the reality of the subject.
There’s a minor hospital in Manchester that has 1 confirmed Covid 19 death, the reality is 38 patients died on their Covid wards during the past 4 months, as part of the team who bagged them up I think I can say categorically they aren’t heresay. The hospital trust I am at currently has over 600 ‘grey area deaths’ over the period on top of a figure nearing 2000 confirmed. These are not insignificant discrepancies and they can’t be washed away with a sweeping statement from someone with zero first hand perspective of the systems in place or the reporting mechanism.
The priority of this government has always been to soften the figures... if we look at the % of our unconfirmed c19 deaths and apply that as an average across the national figures... shock horror, about an additional 20k which is pretty similar to the shift in average seasonal deaths so far this year still unaccounted for.
First of all, the entire reason for the review of the death toll is because ALL deaths that have had a positive test for covid at ANY point in time are included in the statistics. (In the extreme this could be someone that recovered 3 months ago and then
Got hit by a bus). This brings your claim about people being left out of the count because they swabbed clear after having it into serious doubt.
Drs and professors agree with this and i dont mean to be disrespectful but you having 'bagged up' some dead people doesnt qualify you to categorically state much.
https://www.theparliamentaryreview.co.uk/news/health-secretary-orders-review-into-covid-19-death-data
Once again... a little information, a huge decree of knowledge.
“The current counting methods”, tell me... how long have those current counting methods been in place Mr Expert on the subject? That’s your problem here... you’re sighting a few individual cases which are under question and using them to question what has been a horrific and under reported death toll.
And actually you are hugely disrespectful, there’s a huge number of people who have lost relatives, loved ones etc and for the sake of positioning yourself as some kind of authority on the subject you are sighting a ‘spin doctors’ polished statement from Matt Hancock.
I’ll happily admit I’m not a Tory, I’ll happily admit I never thought I would see a worst minister for health post Jeremy Hunt until Matt Hancock arrived... but I’ll also admit that any government you liked would have struggled with Covid-19, there is no perfect approach. That doesn’t change the fact that Covid-19 deaths have been massively under reported in this country (as probably every European country in truth). As we where told months ago by many “professors and doctors” we will only be able to see the real impact when we have enough data to review against the 5 year averages. Nothing has changed that fact, we have enough data in our hands now to do that and it clearly shows our figures are understated, they highlight the failings of Mr Hancock, his policies and approach.
Stating a handful of questionable entries doesn’t erase that, if you fail to see stories and statements like Mr Hancocks don’t have a political agenda then perhaps you lack the intellect I gave you credit for.
It is not 'fact' that deaths are under reported, it is your opinion. Pointing out that you are not qualified to state this opinion as fact is not disrespectful to those that have died and their familes. Trying to claim it as such is nonsense.
People that have tested positive for covid are recorded by the second generation surveillance system. Deaths are then checked against this list and anyone that has ever tested positive is added to the statistics for covid deaths. This isnt a method that begun part way through the current crisis and it includes eveyone that has been tested from day 1.
Even the claimed missing care home deaths where added retrospectively to the statistics on april 29th when the guidelines for recording them changed.
The inquiry into over reporting is prompted by oxford professors in conjunction with other professors s and is acknowledgedby the peoplebthat compile the statistics. If you want to dismiss this as political agenda then it just highlights your cognitive bias. The fact that you think you know better than these professors and statisticians is a glorious display of your own 'little information' leading to a 'huge decree of knowledge'.
Of course Professor Mellow Fellow... as you say we’ve probably just had a 20,000 surplus in Fatal DIY incidents. Couldn’t answer the question though could you?
Anyone in an NHS trust would tell you the scenario, heck watch the 2 part Hospital Covid special and see the coroners actually updating the records under Hancocks farcical system. It was, has been and still is an absolute joke.
Your use of evidence is so selective... an increase in home accidents, untreated illnesses becoming critical, suicide attempts... in a time where RTA’s Etc where at an all time low making that 20,000 surplus in effect far far higher... how come our A&Es where devoid of the usual levels of critical patients?
And the missing care home deaths where factored in on the 29th... lol, no the very few tested and confirmed cases where. That was an absolute fraction of the reality.
The last major update to recording deaths occurred less than 4 weeks ago... updates themselves are into double figures since the outbreak. Perhaps ask yourself why a very simple process needs so much tinkering during that time and you may start to understand the process and motivations a little better.
What question didn't i answer?
Its funny you criticise my use of evidence, all you do is give opinion without anything to back it up.
I gave examples of what COULD contribute towards excess deaths including irrefutable evidence of the variation and yearly increase in totals. It is very telling that everybody has avoided this point.
For the other reasons they are very possible and for example with suicides, there is the fact that half a million people have accesed one (of many) suicide prevention help programs during this crisis (as of may 18th) This is equal to the total amount of people using it in the preceeding years. It is not something to be dismissed.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52702048
You say you have the data to prove excess deaths are attributable to covid yet you dont show any, its not in the news and there are no professors parading it about. When this happens i might take it, and you seriously.
As the article says “investigation into the current counting methods”, my question was... how long have the “current” (very key phrase) counting methods been in place... I’ll give you a clue, about 3 weeks ago after the man launching the investigation signed the fuckers off for the umpteenth time.
As for proving anything to an armchair Covid strategist... I don’t need to. the surplus deaths are known figures, the registered suicides are known figures, accidental deaths are known figures.... this isn’t rocket science, google them all and do the maths then invent some other bollox to explain away 20k plus lives because all your examples are well documented within the figures. In short you are just waffling utter crap which isn’t even a possible answer.
I have every right to my opinion and it echoes the thoughts of all the team who I work with wether that’s ICU nurses, consultants, specialists in infectious diseases, clinical directors etc. Feel free to be obtuse as you like... the fact is I’ve lived the reality for months, whereas you have as much credibility as you would commenting on what it’s like to be a Para fighting in Afghanistan or wherever... you have zero insight into the reality, zero substance to your statement and simply grasp at a biased statement, worded by a spin doctor and released for the aid of political manoeuvre.
The current method of counting anyone that has tested positive in the death totals has been happening from the beginning. That is the specific method we are discussing and i answered accordingly. If you want to debate other aspects that contribute to the total you should specify and produce some evidence of your standpoint.
As we have already established you dont use evidence just opinion, heresay and ad hominem attacks, i wont be paying much heed to your opinions and obvious agenda.
Regardless of my perceived credibility this inquiry has been prompted by people with far more credibility than either of us - professors at the centre for EVIDENCE based medicine. It is acknowledged as an issue by the very people that compile the statistics and has enough credence to bring about an inquiry. It is worth noting that the centre of evidence based medicine is based at oxford university and works with the world health organisation but feel free to blame matt hancock and political agenda if it helps you feel superior.
As you say you are free to have your opinion and contrary to your accusations i haven't once tried to stop you, thats just "waffling utter crap" yourself, as is most of your posts. Emotive, diversionary waffle. Without substance but plenty of bias.
The irony of “mellow fellow”... I’ll admit I’ve got to the point where I am skim reading your replies as they are as tiresome and unrelated to the reality as the majority of Mr Hancocks statements.
As for credibility I really don’t give a damn what your opinion is, there’s plenty of friends/people on these forums who know what I’ve done and continue to do during this epidemic. Heck if you are unfortunate enough to contract the virus and be hospitalised, have a life threading diy accident or attempt to take your own life we can probably meet face to face and continue the discussion.
You’ve on a number of occasions tried to belittle statements which are firsthand, you do that from a position where actually you’ve not stepped foot in a hospital, you haven’t had to deal with distraught relatives, the patients, you’ve not had to work under the conditions of the pandemic, the policies and directives of Mr Hancock... in short, you actually know fuck all on the subject or the reality beyond what you’ve been spoon fed by a politically biased PR team desperately trying to maintain credibility in a disaster which they have contributed heavily too.
The only thing you’ve established is you have fuck all understanding of the reality... sorry x
Irony is you calling me "mr smarty pants", "armchair strategist", "professor mellow fellow" and so on and then crying that i am "belittling" you
Im sorry if me providing evidence makes you feel inferior however that is your problem, not mine.
“Mr smarty pants”? I suggest you consult your sources as it seems you’re now making shit up fella.
Crying... fair point, I’ve done a bit of that during the last 5 months, it’s not something I see as a weakness but I would probably caveat it’s something I reserve for life’s more challenging moments, not some self appointed forum hero.
As for you making me feel inferior... how exactly does that work? What do you have that I am in awe of? I’ve read your posts, looked at your profile... I don’t see it.
I said your approach is belittling. To suggest people’s deaths are a work of fiction to someone who’s through choice dealt with them says a lot about your humanity, it says a lot about your general nature as a person. It may come as a shock to you but after 3 decades living a trans lifestyle I’ve experienced a fair amount of males trying to put me down, humiliate, belittle, bully or whatever term you wish to use.
I can assure you your impact on me personally is a very big zero.
Fair enough, it was "mr expert" not smarty pants. I guess i lost track of the names and insults you dish out.
As for making shit up, that's your forte, alongside playing the victim, hypocrisy and belittling others yourself. This says a lot about YOUR general nature.
I haven't belittled you, said the deaths are a work of fiction or made one reference to you being trans. You know what i meant when I said you are crying about me 'belittling' you and as always you try to manipulate it for the sympathy vote. It is pathetic. "Oh dear, one has to love an angry little narcissist... not sure why my opinion about an environment I work in is ‘making stuff up’, whereas your opinion is the word of god but I’ll leave you to it. Fear not you’ll still be treated ‘without judgement’ when you turn up from that potentially fatal diy accident. X | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"You know you can post without quoting everything that's been said so far ? Your personal bickering is fun but getting hard to read "I’m very happy to oblige to improve your user experience  x | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" happy to obligeb" You can even edit  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one!
Could be some caused by not seeking treatment.
So 65,000 extra people have died because they didn’t seek treatment? These are deaths, over and above what we would normally expect in this country. All the ‘normal’ deaths still occurred in this period, yet we have a spike of 65,000 additional deaths.
Well, 45,000 of those excess deaths are due to covid. This leaves 20,000 for which there is a myriad of possible causes. Such as-
people not recieving the treatment they need (cancer patients, people having a heart attack but convincing themselves its something else to avoid hospital, ambulance staff being too busy to get to patients quickly enough to save their life etc).
The isolation could have caused many suicides
Elderly avoiding the hospitals and succumbing to other infections.
Diy accidents through everyone stuck at home wanting to get jobs done.
Etc etc.
Last point, though by no means insignificant. - the excess death figure is calculated from an 'average' number. The very nature of averaged means that there must have been a high figure, and a low. We could have had an extra 20,000 this year even if covid didn't exist.
Of course we could also been in a low year for (normal) deaths meaning that covid deaths are even higher than recorded but this just serves to confirm that using excess deaths figures is pointless without having the complete data set. In isolation it is just a meaningless number.
That’s a very hopeful outlook. it’s well documented that Covid 19 deaths in the care homes weren’t recorded for the first few months of the pandemic. If you worked in any hospital in the UK you would also see that the registering of deaths as Covid-19 isn’t hugely accurate to the reality. There’s a number of patients who aren’t recorded as C19 who in reality are, whether that be not tested prior to death or swabbed clear post infection but still die due to the damage the virus has done.
Its not hopeful, its factual and not supporting/implying a particular causation.
I am merely pointing out that using statistics without a complete understanding and consideration of the relevant data is meaningless.
Trying to use it as definitive proof is naive, possibly even deceptive.
I could easily take a 'fact' or statistic to disprove any of your claims but it would just be point scoring and have no real relevance. Ie - it is well documented that people that havent died of covid have been recorded as dying from it therefore covid is a con.
The 'fact' is true, the conclusion isn't. Exactly the same as the other facts and statistics being rolled out to support or disprove one side or the other. The conclusions drawn from them are nothing more than assumption.
That’s a very long winded statement to summarise the fact we all know that is statistics can always be presented in a number of ways...
The point I make is simple, if you work in any of the NHS trusts or indeed the care system you are aware the reality far exceeds the ‘recorded Covid-19 deaths’.
Unless you have been in every hospital and tallied every figure your 'point' is nothing more than the assumptions I refered to.
No it’s not, because every trust is obliged to record deaths in the same manner and using the same guidelines.
For example we have a number of patients who have passed through ICU on ventilation and overcome the virus essentially as they will swab clear during treatment. They may pass away despite the virus being gone simply through major organ failure due to the damage the virus has caused. These cases will not appear as a Covid 19 deaths, they will fall under whatever organ failure in the final reckoning.
Likewise the approach for patients in the care system was to not move them to a hospital environment in the early months. Testing was unavailable in the majority of homes and therefore those who passed away where simply filed under terminal copd, again they don’t contribute to the Covid-19 figures.
Your standpoint reminds me of the geniuses At KPMG who took over procurement of PPE during this crisis. Educated, Intelligent people with a single source of information. Sadly zero insight into the frontline, the working mechanisms, the central directives that change daily from Downing Street etc. In the same way as we rolled our eyes when boxes of the wrong grade face masks, turned up... 1/2 supplies of gloves as they counted an individual glove as 1 unit etc. When I read your delivery I do the same... fair assessment, well written and lots of logic but in honesty you don’t have a clue on the reality of the subject.
There’s a minor hospital in Manchester that has 1 confirmed Covid 19 death, the reality is 38 patients died on their Covid wards during the past 4 months, as part of the team who bagged them up I think I can say categorically they aren’t heresay. The hospital trust I am at currently has over 600 ‘grey area deaths’ over the period on top of a figure nearing 2000 confirmed. These are not insignificant discrepancies and they can’t be washed away with a sweeping statement from someone with zero first hand perspective of the systems in place or the reporting mechanism.
The priority of this government has always been to soften the figures... if we look at the % of our unconfirmed c19 deaths and apply that as an average across the national figures... shock horror, about an additional 20k which is pretty similar to the shift in average seasonal deaths so far this year still unaccounted for.
First of all, the entire reason for the review of the death toll is because ALL deaths that have had a positive test for covid at ANY point in time are included in the statistics. (In the extreme this could be someone that recovered 3 months ago and then
Got hit by a bus). This brings your claim about people being left out of the count because they swabbed clear after having it into serious doubt.
Drs and professors agree with this and i dont mean to be disrespectful but you having 'bagged up' some dead people doesnt qualify you to categorically state much.
https://www.theparliamentaryreview.co.uk/news/health-secretary-orders-review-into-covid-19-death-data
Once again... a little information, a huge decree of knowledge.
“The current counting methods”, tell me... how long have those current counting methods been in place Mr Expert on the subject? That’s your problem here... you’re sighting a few individual cases which are under question and using them to question what has been a horrific and under reported death toll.
And actually you are hugely disrespectful, there’s a huge number of people who have lost relatives, loved ones etc and for the sake of positioning yourself as some kind of authority on the subject you are sighting a ‘spin doctors’ polished statement from Matt Hancock.
I’ll happily admit I’m not a Tory, I’ll happily admit I never thought I would see a worst minister for health post Jeremy Hunt until Matt Hancock arrived... but I’ll also admit that any government you liked would have struggled with Covid-19, there is no perfect approach. That doesn’t change the fact that Covid-19 deaths have been massively under reported in this country (as probably every European country in truth). As we where told months ago by many “professors and doctors” we will only be able to see the real impact when we have enough data to review against the 5 year averages. Nothing has changed that fact, we have enough data in our hands now to do that and it clearly shows our figures are understated, they highlight the failings of Mr Hancock, his policies and approach.
Stating a handful of questionable entries doesn’t erase that, if you fail to see stories and statements like Mr Hancocks don’t have a political agenda then perhaps you lack the intellect I gave you credit for.
It is not 'fact' that deaths are under reported, it is your opinion. Pointing out that you are not qualified to state this opinion as fact is not disrespectful to those that have died and their familes. Trying to claim it as such is nonsense.
People that have tested positive for covid are recorded by the second generation surveillance system. Deaths are then checked against this list and anyone that has ever tested positive is added to the statistics for covid deaths. This isnt a method that begun part way through the current crisis and it includes eveyone that has been tested from day 1.
Even the claimed missing care home deaths where added retrospectively to the statistics on april 29th when the guidelines for recording them changed.
The inquiry into over reporting is prompted by oxford professors in conjunction with other professors s and is acknowledgedby the peoplebthat compile the statistics. If you want to dismiss this as political agenda then it just highlights your cognitive bias. The fact that you think you know better than these professors and statisticians is a glorious display of your own 'little information' leading to a 'huge decree of knowledge'.
Of course Professor Mellow Fellow... as you say we’ve probably just had a 20,000 surplus in Fatal DIY incidents. Couldn’t answer the question though could you?
Anyone in an NHS trust would tell you the scenario, heck watch the 2 part Hospital Covid special and see the coroners actually updating the records under Hancocks farcical system. It was, has been and still is an absolute joke.
Your use of evidence is so selective... an increase in home accidents, untreated illnesses becoming critical, suicide attempts... in a time where RTA’s Etc where at an all time low making that 20,000 surplus in effect far far higher... how come our A&Es where devoid of the usual levels of critical patients?
And the missing care home deaths where factored in on the 29th... lol, no the very few tested and confirmed cases where. That was an absolute fraction of the reality.
The last major update to recording deaths occurred less than 4 weeks ago... updates themselves are into double figures since the outbreak. Perhaps ask yourself why a very simple process needs so much tinkering during that time and you may start to understand the process and motivations a little better.
What question didn't i answer?
Its funny you criticise my use of evidence, all you do is give opinion without anything to back it up.
I gave examples of what COULD contribute towards excess deaths including irrefutable evidence of the variation and yearly increase in totals. It is very telling that everybody has avoided this point.
For the other reasons they are very possible and for example with suicides, there is the fact that half a million people have accesed one (of many) suicide prevention help programs during this crisis (as of may 18th) This is equal to the total amount of people using it in the preceeding years. It is not something to be dismissed.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52702048
You say you have the data to prove excess deaths are attributable to covid yet you dont show any, its not in the news and there are no professors parading it about. When this happens i might take it, and you seriously.
As the article says “investigation into the current counting methods”, my question was... how long have the “current” (very key phrase) counting methods been in place... I’ll give you a clue, about 3 weeks ago after the man launching the investigation signed the fuckers off for the umpteenth time.
As for proving anything to an armchair Covid strategist... I don’t need to. the surplus deaths are known figures, the registered suicides are known figures, accidental deaths are known figures.... this isn’t rocket science, google them all and do the maths then invent some other bollox to explain away 20k plus lives because all your examples are well documented within the figures. In short you are just waffling utter crap which isn’t even a possible answer.
I have every right to my opinion and it echoes the thoughts of all the team who I work with wether that’s ICU nurses, consultants, specialists in infectious diseases, clinical directors etc. Feel free to be obtuse as you like... the fact is I’ve lived the reality for months, whereas you have as much credibility as you would commenting on what it’s like to be a Para fighting in Afghanistan or wherever... you have zero insight into the reality, zero substance to your statement and simply grasp at a biased statement, worded by a spin doctor and released for the aid of political manoeuvre.
The current method of counting anyone that has tested positive in the death totals has been happening from the beginning. That is the specific method we are discussing and i answered accordingly. If you want to debate other aspects that contribute to the total you should specify and produce some evidence of your standpoint.
As we have already established you dont use evidence just opinion, heresay and ad hominem attacks, i wont be paying much heed to your opinions and obvious agenda.
Regardless of my perceived credibility this inquiry has been prompted by people with far more credibility than either of us - professors at the centre for EVIDENCE based medicine. It is acknowledged as an issue by the very people that compile the statistics and has enough credence to bring about an inquiry. It is worth noting that the centre of evidence based medicine is based at oxford university and works with the world health organisation but feel free to blame matt hancock and political agenda if it helps you feel superior.
As you say you are free to have your opinion and contrary to your accusations i haven't once tried to stop you, thats just "waffling utter crap" yourself, as is most of your posts. Emotive, diversionary waffle. Without substance but plenty of bias.
The irony of “mellow fellow”... I’ll admit I’ve got to the point where I am skim reading your replies as they are as tiresome and unrelated to the reality as the majority of Mr Hancocks statements.
As for credibility I really don’t give a damn what your opinion is, there’s plenty of friends/people on these forums who know what I’ve done and continue to do during this epidemic. Heck if you are unfortunate enough to contract the virus and be hospitalised, have a life threading diy accident or attempt to take your own life we can probably meet face to face and continue the discussion.
You’ve on a number of occasions tried to belittle statements which are firsthand, you do that from a position where actually you’ve not stepped foot in a hospital, you haven’t had to deal with distraught relatives, the patients, you’ve not had to work under the conditions of the pandemic, the policies and directives of Mr Hancock... in short, you actually know fuck all on the subject or the reality beyond what you’ve been spoon fed by a politically biased PR team desperately trying to maintain credibility in a disaster which they have contributed heavily too.
The only thing you’ve established is you have fuck all understanding of the reality... sorry x
Irony is you calling me "mr smarty pants", "armchair strategist", "professor mellow fellow" and so on and then crying that i am "belittling" you
Im sorry if me providing evidence makes you feel inferior however that is your problem, not mine.
“Mr smarty pants”? I suggest you consult your sources as it seems you’re now making shit up fella.
Crying... fair point, I’ve done a bit of that during the last 5 months, it’s not something I see as a weakness but I would probably caveat it’s something I reserve for life’s more challenging moments, not some self appointed forum hero.
As for you making me feel inferior... how exactly does that work? What do you have that I am in awe of? I’ve read your posts, looked at your profile... I don’t see it.
I said your approach is belittling. To suggest people’s deaths are a work of fiction to someone who’s through choice dealt with them says a lot about your humanity, it says a lot about your general nature as a person. It may come as a shock to you but after 3 decades living a trans lifestyle I’ve experienced a fair amount of males trying to put me down, humiliate, belittle, bully or whatever term you wish to use.
I can assure you your impact on me personally is a very big zero.
Fair enough, it was "mr expert" not smarty pants. I guess i lost track of the names and insults you dish out.
As for making shit up, that's your forte, alongside playing the victim, hypocrisy and belittling others yourself. This says a lot about YOUR general nature.
I haven't belittled you, said the deaths are a work of fiction or made one reference to you being trans. You know what i meant when I said you are crying about me 'belittling' you and as always you try to manipulate it for the sympathy vote. It is pathetic.
Oh dear, one has to love an angry little narcissist... not sure why my opinion about an environment I work in is ‘making stuff up’, whereas your opinion is the word of god but I’ll leave you to it.
Fear not you’ll still be treated ‘without judgement’ when you turn up from that potentially fatal diy accident.
X"I suggest you look up the definition of narcissist and then have a good look at yourself and your contributions to this thread. "Narcissistic personality disorder involves a pattern of self-centered, arrogant thinking and behavior, a lack of empathy and consideration for other people, and an excessive need for admiration. Others often describe people with NPD as cocky, manipulative, selfish, patronizing, and demanding. This way of thinking and behaving surfaces in every area of the narcissist’s life: from work and friendships to family and love relationships. People with narcissistic personality disorder are extremely resistant to changing their behavior, even when it’s causing them problems. Their tendency is to turn the blame on to others. What’s more, they are extremely sensitive and react badly to even the slightest criticisms, disagreements, or perceived slights, which they view as personal attacks. Narcissists feel threatened whenever they encounter someone who appears to have something they lack—especially those who are confident and popular. They’re also threatened by people who don’t kowtow to them or who challenge them in any way. Their defense mechanism is contempt. The only way to neutralize the threat and prop up their own sagging ego is to put those people down. They may do it in a patronizing or dismissive way as if to demonstrate how little the other person means to them. Or they may go on the attack with insults, name-calling, bullying, and threats to force the other person back into line." Ps, i know i could remove some of the quote to make it easier to read but for now i will leave it in so people can refer to it and make their own mind up who is a narcissist. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"People have been saying it for a long time a lockdown for a virus we now know as a 99.972% survival rate." Assuming you mean the virus has a 99.972% survival rate, great. With 60,000,000 people in the UK ( actually it's more than that), if everyone gets it only 1.68 MILLION people will die! Fantastic news! Mr Cummings will be very pleased! | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"People have been saying it for a long time a lockdown for a virus we now know as a 99.972% survival rate. Assuming you mean the virus has a 99.972% survival rate, great. With 60,000,000 people in the UK ( actually it's more than that), if everyone gets it only 1.68 MILLION people will die! Fantastic news! Mr Cummings will be very pleased!" I think your maths are out there. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"People have been saying it for a long time a lockdown for a virus we now know as a 99.972% survival rate. Assuming you mean the virus has a 99.972% survival rate, great. With 60,000,000 people in the UK ( actually it's more than that), if everyone gets it only 1.68 MILLION people will die! Fantastic news! Mr Cummings will be very pleased!" I think your math is off by quite a bit! | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"People have been saying it for a long time a lockdown for a virus we now know as a 99.972% survival rate. Assuming you mean the virus has a 99.972% survival rate, great. With 60,000,000 people in the UK ( actually it's more than that), if everyone gets it only 1.68 MILLION people will die! Fantastic news! Mr Cummings will be very pleased! I think your math is off by quite a bit!" You beat me to it. His math is wayyy off | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Ps, i know i could remove some of the quote to make it easier to read but for now i will leave it in so people can refer to it and make their own mind up who is a narcissist. " Like anyone is bothered... why not go play with your power tools and in the meantime I’ll get your bed sorted and COVID-19 death certificate drawn up instead hunni x | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one!
Could be some caused by not seeking treatment.
So 65,000 extra people have died because they didn’t seek treatment? These are deaths, over and above what we would normally expect in this country. All the ‘normal’ deaths still occurred in this period, yet we have a spike of 65,000 additional deaths.
Well, 45,000 of those excess deaths are due to covid. This leaves 20,000 for which there is a myriad of possible causes. Such as-
people not recieving the treatment they need (cancer patients, people having a heart attack but convincing themselves its something else to avoid hospital, ambulance staff being too busy to get to patients quickly enough to save their life etc).
The isolation could have caused many suicides
Elderly avoiding the hospitals and succumbing to other infections.
Diy accidents through everyone stuck at home wanting to get jobs done.
Etc etc.
Last point, though by no means insignificant. - the excess death figure is calculated from an 'average' number. The very nature of averaged means that there must have been a high figure, and a low. We could have had an extra 20,000 this year even if covid didn't exist.
Of course we could also been in a low year for (normal) deaths meaning that covid deaths are even higher than recorded but this just serves to confirm that using excess deaths figures is pointless without having the complete data set. In isolation it is just a meaningless number.
That’s a very hopeful outlook. it’s well documented that Covid 19 deaths in the care homes weren’t recorded for the first few months of the pandemic. If you worked in any hospital in the UK you would also see that the registering of deaths as Covid-19 isn’t hugely accurate to the reality. There’s a number of patients who aren’t recorded as C19 who in reality are, whether that be not tested prior to death or swabbed clear post infection but still die due to the damage the virus has done.
Its not hopeful, its factual and not supporting/implying a particular causation.
I am merely pointing out that using statistics without a complete understanding and consideration of the relevant data is meaningless.
Trying to use it as definitive proof is naive, possibly even deceptive.
I could easily take a 'fact' or statistic to disprove any of your claims but it would just be point scoring and have no real relevance. Ie - it is well documented that people that havent died of covid have been recorded as dying from it therefore covid is a con.
The 'fact' is true, the conclusion isn't. Exactly the same as the other facts and statistics being rolled out to support or disprove one side or the other. The conclusions drawn from them are nothing more than assumption.
That’s a very long winded statement to summarise the fact we all know that is statistics can always be presented in a number of ways...
The point I make is simple, if you work in any of the NHS trusts or indeed the care system you are aware the reality far exceeds the ‘recorded Covid-19 deaths’.
Unless you have been in every hospital and tallied every figure your 'point' is nothing more than the assumptions I refered to.
No it’s not, because every trust is obliged to record deaths in the same manner and using the same guidelines.
For example we have a number of patients who have passed through ICU on ventilation and overcome the virus essentially as they will swab clear during treatment. They may pass away despite the virus being gone simply through major organ failure due to the damage the virus has caused. These cases will not appear as a Covid 19 deaths, they will fall under whatever organ failure in the final reckoning.
Likewise the approach for patients in the care system was to not move them to a hospital environment in the early months. Testing was unavailable in the majority of homes and therefore those who passed away where simply filed under terminal copd, again they don’t contribute to the Covid-19 figures.
Your standpoint reminds me of the geniuses At KPMG who took over procurement of PPE during this crisis. Educated, Intelligent people with a single source of information. Sadly zero insight into the frontline, the working mechanisms, the central directives that change daily from Downing Street etc. In the same way as we rolled our eyes when boxes of the wrong grade face masks, turned up... 1/2 supplies of gloves as they counted an individual glove as 1 unit etc. When I read your delivery I do the same... fair assessment, well written and lots of logic but in honesty you don’t have a clue on the reality of the subject.
There’s a minor hospital in Manchester that has 1 confirmed Covid 19 death, the reality is 38 patients died on their Covid wards during the past 4 months, as part of the team who bagged them up I think I can say categorically they aren’t heresay. The hospital trust I am at currently has over 600 ‘grey area deaths’ over the period on top of a figure nearing 2000 confirmed. These are not insignificant discrepancies and they can’t be washed away with a sweeping statement from someone with zero first hand perspective of the systems in place or the reporting mechanism.
The priority of this government has always been to soften the figures... if we look at the % of our unconfirmed c19 deaths and apply that as an average across the national figures... shock horror, about an additional 20k which is pretty similar to the shift in average seasonal deaths so far this year still unaccounted for.
First of all, the entire reason for the review of the death toll is because ALL deaths that have had a positive test for covid at ANY point in time are included in the statistics. (In the extreme this could be someone that recovered 3 months ago and then
Got hit by a bus). This brings your claim about people being left out of the count because they swabbed clear after having it into serious doubt.
Drs and professors agree with this and i dont mean to be disrespectful but you having 'bagged up' some dead people doesnt qualify you to categorically state much.
https://www.theparliamentaryreview.co.uk/news/health-secretary-orders-review-into-covid-19-death-data
Once again... a little information, a huge decree of knowledge.
“The current counting methods”, tell me... how long have those current counting methods been in place Mr Expert on the subject? That’s your problem here... you’re sighting a few individual cases which are under question and using them to question what has been a horrific and under reported death toll.
And actually you are hugely disrespectful, there’s a huge number of people who have lost relatives, loved ones etc and for the sake of positioning yourself as some kind of authority on the subject you are sighting a ‘spin doctors’ polished statement from Matt Hancock.
I’ll happily admit I’m not a Tory, I’ll happily admit I never thought I would see a worst minister for health post Jeremy Hunt until Matt Hancock arrived... but I’ll also admit that any government you liked would have struggled with Covid-19, there is no perfect approach. That doesn’t change the fact that Covid-19 deaths have been massively under reported in this country (as probably every European country in truth). As we where told months ago by many “professors and doctors” we will only be able to see the real impact when we have enough data to review against the 5 year averages. Nothing has changed that fact, we have enough data in our hands now to do that and it clearly shows our figures are understated, they highlight the failings of Mr Hancock, his policies and approach.
Stating a handful of questionable entries doesn’t erase that, if you fail to see stories and statements like Mr Hancocks don’t have a political agenda then perhaps you lack the intellect I gave you credit for.
It is not 'fact' that deaths are under reported, it is your opinion. Pointing out that you are not qualified to state this opinion as fact is not disrespectful to those that have died and their familes. Trying to claim it as such is nonsense.
People that have tested positive for covid are recorded by the second generation surveillance system. Deaths are then checked against this list and anyone that has ever tested positive is added to the statistics for covid deaths. This isnt a method that begun part way through the current crisis and it includes eveyone that has been tested from day 1.
Even the claimed missing care home deaths where added retrospectively to the statistics on april 29th when the guidelines for recording them changed.
The inquiry into over reporting is prompted by oxford professors in conjunction with other professors s and is acknowledgedby the peoplebthat compile the statistics. If you want to dismiss this as political agenda then it just highlights your cognitive bias. The fact that you think you know better than these professors and statisticians is a glorious display of your own 'little information' leading to a 'huge decree of knowledge'.
Of course Professor Mellow Fellow... as you say we’ve probably just had a 20,000 surplus in Fatal DIY incidents. Couldn’t answer the question though could you?
Anyone in an NHS trust would tell you the scenario, heck watch the 2 part Hospital Covid special and see the coroners actually updating the records under Hancocks farcical system. It was, has been and still is an absolute joke.
Your use of evidence is so selective... an increase in home accidents, untreated illnesses becoming critical, suicide attempts... in a time where RTA’s Etc where at an all time low making that 20,000 surplus in effect far far higher... how come our A&Es where devoid of the usual levels of critical patients?
And the missing care home deaths where factored in on the 29th... lol, no the very few tested and confirmed cases where. That was an absolute fraction of the reality.
The last major update to recording deaths occurred less than 4 weeks ago... updates themselves are into double figures since the outbreak. Perhaps ask yourself why a very simple process needs so much tinkering during that time and you may start to understand the process and motivations a little better.
What question didn't i answer?
Its funny you criticise my use of evidence, all you do is give opinion without anything to back it up.
I gave examples of what COULD contribute towards excess deaths including irrefutable evidence of the variation and yearly increase in totals. It is very telling that everybody has avoided this point.
For the other reasons they are very possible and for example with suicides, there is the fact that half a million people have accesed one (of many) suicide prevention help programs during this crisis (as of may 18th) This is equal to the total amount of people using it in the preceeding years. It is not something to be dismissed.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52702048
You say you have the data to prove excess deaths are attributable to covid yet you dont show any, its not in the news and there are no professors parading it about. When this happens i might take it, and you seriously.
As the article says “investigation into the current counting methods”, my question was... how long have the “current” (very key phrase) counting methods been in place... I’ll give you a clue, about 3 weeks ago after the man launching the investigation signed the fuckers off for the umpteenth time.
As for proving anything to an armchair Covid strategist... I don’t need to. the surplus deaths are known figures, the registered suicides are known figures, accidental deaths are known figures.... this isn’t rocket science, google them all and do the maths then invent some other bollox to explain away 20k plus lives because all your examples are well documented within the figures. In short you are just waffling utter crap which isn’t even a possible answer.
I have every right to my opinion and it echoes the thoughts of all the team who I work with wether that’s ICU nurses, consultants, specialists in infectious diseases, clinical directors etc. Feel free to be obtuse as you like... the fact is I’ve lived the reality for months, whereas you have as much credibility as you would commenting on what it’s like to be a Para fighting in Afghanistan or wherever... you have zero insight into the reality, zero substance to your statement and simply grasp at a biased statement, worded by a spin doctor and released for the aid of political manoeuvre.
The current method of counting anyone that has tested positive in the death totals has been happening from the beginning. That is the specific method we are discussing and i answered accordingly. If you want to debate other aspects that contribute to the total you should specify and produce some evidence of your standpoint.
As we have already established you dont use evidence just opinion, heresay and ad hominem attacks, i wont be paying much heed to your opinions and obvious agenda.
Regardless of my perceived credibility this inquiry has been prompted by people with far more credibility than either of us - professors at the centre for EVIDENCE based medicine. It is acknowledged as an issue by the very people that compile the statistics and has enough credence to bring about an inquiry. It is worth noting that the centre of evidence based medicine is based at oxford university and works with the world health organisation but feel free to blame matt hancock and political agenda if it helps you feel superior.
As you say you are free to have your opinion and contrary to your accusations i haven't once tried to stop you, thats just "waffling utter crap" yourself, as is most of your posts. Emotive, diversionary waffle. Without substance but plenty of bias.
The irony of “mellow fellow”... I’ll admit I’ve got to the point where I am skim reading your replies as they are as tiresome and unrelated to the reality as the majority of Mr Hancocks statements.
As for credibility I really don’t give a damn what your opinion is, there’s plenty of friends/people on these forums who know what I’ve done and continue to do during this epidemic. Heck if you are unfortunate enough to contract the virus and be hospitalised, have a life threading diy accident or attempt to take your own life we can probably meet face to face and continue the discussion.
You’ve on a number of occasions tried to belittle statements which are firsthand, you do that from a position where actually you’ve not stepped foot in a hospital, you haven’t had to deal with distraught relatives, the patients, you’ve not had to work under the conditions of the pandemic, the policies and directives of Mr Hancock... in short, you actually know fuck all on the subject or the reality beyond what you’ve been spoon fed by a politically biased PR team desperately trying to maintain credibility in a disaster which they have contributed heavily too.
The only thing you’ve established is you have fuck all understanding of the reality... sorry x
Irony is you calling me "mr smarty pants", "armchair strategist", "professor mellow fellow" and so on and then crying that i am "belittling" you
Im sorry if me providing evidence makes you feel inferior however that is your problem, not mine.
“Mr smarty pants”? I suggest you consult your sources as it seems you’re now making shit up fella.
Crying... fair point, I’ve done a bit of that during the last 5 months, it’s not something I see as a weakness but I would probably caveat it’s something I reserve for life’s more challenging moments, not some self appointed forum hero.
As for you making me feel inferior... how exactly does that work? What do you have that I am in awe of? I’ve read your posts, looked at your profile... I don’t see it.
I said your approach is belittling. To suggest people’s deaths are a work of fiction to someone who’s through choice dealt with them says a lot about your humanity, it says a lot about your general nature as a person. It may come as a shock to you but after 3 decades living a trans lifestyle I’ve experienced a fair amount of males trying to put me down, humiliate, belittle, bully or whatever term you wish to use.
I can assure you your impact on me personally is a very big zero.
Fair enough, it was "mr expert" not smarty pants. I guess i lost track of the names and insults you dish out.
As for making shit up, that's your forte, alongside playing the victim, hypocrisy and belittling others yourself. This says a lot about YOUR general nature.
I haven't belittled you, said the deaths are a work of fiction or made one reference to you being trans. You know what i meant when I said you are crying about me 'belittling' you and as always you try to manipulate it for the sympathy vote. It is pathetic.
Oh dear, one has to love an angry little narcissist... not sure why my opinion about an environment I work in is ‘making stuff up’, whereas your opinion is the word of god but I’ll leave you to it.
Fear not you’ll still be treated ‘without judgement’ when you turn up from that potentially fatal diy accident.
X
I suggest you look up the definition of narcissist and then have a good look at yourself and your contributions to this thread.
"Narcissistic personality disorder involves a pattern of self-centered, arrogant thinking and behavior, a lack of empathy and consideration for other people, and an excessive need for admiration. Others often describe people with NPD as cocky, manipulative, selfish, patronizing, and demanding. This way of thinking and behaving surfaces in every area of the narcissist’s life: from work and friendships to family and love relationships.
People with narcissistic personality disorder are extremely resistant to changing their behavior, even when it’s causing them problems. Their tendency is to turn the blame on to others. What’s more, they are extremely sensitive and react badly to even the slightest criticisms, disagreements, or perceived slights, which they view as personal attacks.
Narcissists feel threatened whenever they encounter someone who appears to have something they lack—especially those who are confident and popular. They’re also threatened by people who don’t kowtow to them or who challenge them in any way. Their defense mechanism is contempt. The only way to neutralize the threat and prop up their own sagging ego is to put those people down. They may do it in a patronizing or dismissive way as if to demonstrate how little the other person means to them. Or they may go on the attack with insults, name-calling, bullying, and threats to force the other person back into line."
Ps, i know i could remove some of the quote to make it easier to read but for now i will leave it in so people can refer to it and make their own mind up who is a narcissist.
"Hey “Mellow Fellow”, any chance you can ‘Mellow’ now ? You’ve gone way off topic along with the other poster and it’s just getting personal now. I’m not taking sides, but I address you instead of the other poster, coz I’m expecting or assuming you to be a real ‘mellow fellow’ | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"People have been saying it for a long time a lockdown for a virus we now know as a 99.972% survival rate. Assuming you mean the virus has a 99.972% survival rate, great. With 60,000,000 people in the UK ( actually it's more than that), if everyone gets it only 1.68 MILLION people will die! Fantastic news! Mr Cummings will be very pleased!" And dare we say it... the survival rate in the UK is actually... 86%. The 99.972% comes from a USA originated Facebook post | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Ps, i know i could remove some of the quote to make it easier to read but for now i will leave it in so people can refer to it and make their own mind up who is a narcissist. Like anyone is bothered... why not go play with your power tools and in the meantime I’ll get your bed sorted and COVID-19 death certificate drawn up instead hunni x" "Their defense mechanism is contempt." - check "The only way to neutralize the threat and prop up their own sagging ego is to put those people down." - check "They may do it in a patronizing or dismissive way as if to demonstrate how little the other person means to them." - check "Or they may go on the attack with insults, name-calling, bullying, and threats to force the other person back into line." - check | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Ps, i know i could remove some of the quote to make it easier to read but for now i will leave it in so people can refer to it and make their own mind up who is a narcissist. Like anyone is bothered... why not go play with your power tools and in the meantime I’ll get your bed sorted and COVID-19 death certificate drawn up instead hunni x "Their defense mechanism is contempt." - check "The only way to neutralize the threat and prop up their own sagging ego is to put those people down." - check "They may do it in a patronizing or dismissive way as if to demonstrate how little the other person means to them." - check "Or they may go on the attack with insults, name-calling, bullying, and threats to force the other person back into line." - check " | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one!
Could be some caused by not seeking treatment.
So 65,000 extra people have died because they didn’t seek treatment? These are deaths, over and above what we would normally expect in this country. All the ‘normal’ deaths still occurred in this period, yet we have a spike of 65,000 additional deaths.
Well, 45,000 of those excess deaths are due to covid. This leaves 20,000 for which there is a myriad of possible causes. Such as-
people not recieving the treatment they need (cancer patients, people having a heart attack but convincing themselves its something else to avoid hospital, ambulance staff being too busy to get to patients quickly enough to save their life etc).
The isolation could have caused many suicides
Elderly avoiding the hospitals and succumbing to other infections.
Diy accidents through everyone stuck at home wanting to get jobs done.
Etc etc.
Last point, though by no means insignificant. - the excess death figure is calculated from an 'average' number. The very nature of averaged means that there must have been a high figure, and a low. We could have had an extra 20,000 this year even if covid didn't exist.
Of course we could also been in a low year for (normal) deaths meaning that covid deaths are even higher than recorded but this just serves to confirm that using excess deaths figures is pointless without having the complete data set. In isolation it is just a meaningless number.
That’s a very hopeful outlook. it’s well documented that Covid 19 deaths in the care homes weren’t recorded for the first few months of the pandemic. If you worked in any hospital in the UK you would also see that the registering of deaths as Covid-19 isn’t hugely accurate to the reality. There’s a number of patients who aren’t recorded as C19 who in reality are, whether that be not tested prior to death or swabbed clear post infection but still die due to the damage the virus has done.
Its not hopeful, its factual and not supporting/implying a particular causation.
I am merely pointing out that using statistics without a complete understanding and consideration of the relevant data is meaningless.
Trying to use it as definitive proof is naive, possibly even deceptive.
I could easily take a 'fact' or statistic to disprove any of your claims but it would just be point scoring and have no real relevance. Ie - it is well documented that people that havent died of covid have been recorded as dying from it therefore covid is a con.
The 'fact' is true, the conclusion isn't. Exactly the same as the other facts and statistics being rolled out to support or disprove one side or the other. The conclusions drawn from them are nothing more than assumption.
That’s a very long winded statement to summarise the fact we all know that is statistics can always be presented in a number of ways...
The point I make is simple, if you work in any of the NHS trusts or indeed the care system you are aware the reality far exceeds the ‘recorded Covid-19 deaths’.
Unless you have been in every hospital and tallied every figure your 'point' is nothing more than the assumptions I refered to.
No it’s not, because every trust is obliged to record deaths in the same manner and using the same guidelines.
For example we have a number of patients who have passed through ICU on ventilation and overcome the virus essentially as they will swab clear during treatment. They may pass away despite the virus being gone simply through major organ failure due to the damage the virus has caused. These cases will not appear as a Covid 19 deaths, they will fall under whatever organ failure in the final reckoning.
Likewise the approach for patients in the care system was to not move them to a hospital environment in the early months. Testing was unavailable in the majority of homes and therefore those who passed away where simply filed under terminal copd, again they don’t contribute to the Covid-19 figures.
Your standpoint reminds me of the geniuses At KPMG who took over procurement of PPE during this crisis. Educated, Intelligent people with a single source of information. Sadly zero insight into the frontline, the working mechanisms, the central directives that change daily from Downing Street etc. In the same way as we rolled our eyes when boxes of the wrong grade face masks, turned up... 1/2 supplies of gloves as they counted an individual glove as 1 unit etc. When I read your delivery I do the same... fair assessment, well written and lots of logic but in honesty you don’t have a clue on the reality of the subject.
There’s a minor hospital in Manchester that has 1 confirmed Covid 19 death, the reality is 38 patients died on their Covid wards during the past 4 months, as part of the team who bagged them up I think I can say categorically they aren’t heresay. The hospital trust I am at currently has over 600 ‘grey area deaths’ over the period on top of a figure nearing 2000 confirmed. These are not insignificant discrepancies and they can’t be washed away with a sweeping statement from someone with zero first hand perspective of the systems in place or the reporting mechanism.
The priority of this government has always been to soften the figures... if we look at the % of our unconfirmed c19 deaths and apply that as an average across the national figures... shock horror, about an additional 20k which is pretty similar to the shift in average seasonal deaths so far this year still unaccounted for.
First of all, the entire reason for the review of the death toll is because ALL deaths that have had a positive test for covid at ANY point in time are included in the statistics. (In the extreme this could be someone that recovered 3 months ago and then
Got hit by a bus). This brings your claim about people being left out of the count because they swabbed clear after having it into serious doubt.
Drs and professors agree with this and i dont mean to be disrespectful but you having 'bagged up' some dead people doesnt qualify you to categorically state much.
https://www.theparliamentaryreview.co.uk/news/health-secretary-orders-review-into-covid-19-death-data
Once again... a little information, a huge decree of knowledge.
“The current counting methods”, tell me... how long have those current counting methods been in place Mr Expert on the subject? That’s your problem here... you’re sighting a few individual cases which are under question and using them to question what has been a horrific and under reported death toll.
And actually you are hugely disrespectful, there’s a huge number of people who have lost relatives, loved ones etc and for the sake of positioning yourself as some kind of authority on the subject you are sighting a ‘spin doctors’ polished statement from Matt Hancock.
I’ll happily admit I’m not a Tory, I’ll happily admit I never thought I would see a worst minister for health post Jeremy Hunt until Matt Hancock arrived... but I’ll also admit that any government you liked would have struggled with Covid-19, there is no perfect approach. That doesn’t change the fact that Covid-19 deaths have been massively under reported in this country (as probably every European country in truth). As we where told months ago by many “professors and doctors” we will only be able to see the real impact when we have enough data to review against the 5 year averages. Nothing has changed that fact, we have enough data in our hands now to do that and it clearly shows our figures are understated, they highlight the failings of Mr Hancock, his policies and approach.
Stating a handful of questionable entries doesn’t erase that, if you fail to see stories and statements like Mr Hancocks don’t have a political agenda then perhaps you lack the intellect I gave you credit for.
It is not 'fact' that deaths are under reported, it is your opinion. Pointing out that you are not qualified to state this opinion as fact is not disrespectful to those that have died and their familes. Trying to claim it as such is nonsense.
People that have tested positive for covid are recorded by the second generation surveillance system. Deaths are then checked against this list and anyone that has ever tested positive is added to the statistics for covid deaths. This isnt a method that begun part way through the current crisis and it includes eveyone that has been tested from day 1.
Even the claimed missing care home deaths where added retrospectively to the statistics on april 29th when the guidelines for recording them changed.
The inquiry into over reporting is prompted by oxford professors in conjunction with other professors s and is acknowledgedby the peoplebthat compile the statistics. If you want to dismiss this as political agenda then it just highlights your cognitive bias. The fact that you think you know better than these professors and statisticians is a glorious display of your own 'little information' leading to a 'huge decree of knowledge'.
Of course Professor Mellow Fellow... as you say we’ve probably just had a 20,000 surplus in Fatal DIY incidents. Couldn’t answer the question though could you?
Anyone in an NHS trust would tell you the scenario, heck watch the 2 part Hospital Covid special and see the coroners actually updating the records under Hancocks farcical system. It was, has been and still is an absolute joke.
Your use of evidence is so selective... an increase in home accidents, untreated illnesses becoming critical, suicide attempts... in a time where RTA’s Etc where at an all time low making that 20,000 surplus in effect far far higher... how come our A&Es where devoid of the usual levels of critical patients?
And the missing care home deaths where factored in on the 29th... lol, no the very few tested and confirmed cases where. That was an absolute fraction of the reality.
The last major update to recording deaths occurred less than 4 weeks ago... updates themselves are into double figures since the outbreak. Perhaps ask yourself why a very simple process needs so much tinkering during that time and you may start to understand the process and motivations a little better.
What question didn't i answer?
Its funny you criticise my use of evidence, all you do is give opinion without anything to back it up.
I gave examples of what COULD contribute towards excess deaths including irrefutable evidence of the variation and yearly increase in totals. It is very telling that everybody has avoided this point.
For the other reasons they are very possible and for example with suicides, there is the fact that half a million people have accesed one (of many) suicide prevention help programs during this crisis (as of may 18th) This is equal to the total amount of people using it in the preceeding years. It is not something to be dismissed.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52702048
You say you have the data to prove excess deaths are attributable to covid yet you dont show any, its not in the news and there are no professors parading it about. When this happens i might take it, and you seriously.
As the article says “investigation into the current counting methods”, my question was... how long have the “current” (very key phrase) counting methods been in place... I’ll give you a clue, about 3 weeks ago after the man launching the investigation signed the fuckers off for the umpteenth time.
As for proving anything to an armchair Covid strategist... I don’t need to. the surplus deaths are known figures, the registered suicides are known figures, accidental deaths are known figures.... this isn’t rocket science, google them all and do the maths then invent some other bollox to explain away 20k plus lives because all your examples are well documented within the figures. In short you are just waffling utter crap which isn’t even a possible answer.
I have every right to my opinion and it echoes the thoughts of all the team who I work with wether that’s ICU nurses, consultants, specialists in infectious diseases, clinical directors etc. Feel free to be obtuse as you like... the fact is I’ve lived the reality for months, whereas you have as much credibility as you would commenting on what it’s like to be a Para fighting in Afghanistan or wherever... you have zero insight into the reality, zero substance to your statement and simply grasp at a biased statement, worded by a spin doctor and released for the aid of political manoeuvre.
The current method of counting anyone that has tested positive in the death totals has been happening from the beginning. That is the specific method we are discussing and i answered accordingly. If you want to debate other aspects that contribute to the total you should specify and produce some evidence of your standpoint.
As we have already established you dont use evidence just opinion, heresay and ad hominem attacks, i wont be paying much heed to your opinions and obvious agenda.
Regardless of my perceived credibility this inquiry has been prompted by people with far more credibility than either of us - professors at the centre for EVIDENCE based medicine. It is acknowledged as an issue by the very people that compile the statistics and has enough credence to bring about an inquiry. It is worth noting that the centre of evidence based medicine is based at oxford university and works with the world health organisation but feel free to blame matt hancock and political agenda if it helps you feel superior.
As you say you are free to have your opinion and contrary to your accusations i haven't once tried to stop you, thats just "waffling utter crap" yourself, as is most of your posts. Emotive, diversionary waffle. Without substance but plenty of bias.
The irony of “mellow fellow”... I’ll admit I’ve got to the point where I am skim reading your replies as they are as tiresome and unrelated to the reality as the majority of Mr Hancocks statements.
As for credibility I really don’t give a damn what your opinion is, there’s plenty of friends/people on these forums who know what I’ve done and continue to do during this epidemic. Heck if you are unfortunate enough to contract the virus and be hospitalised, have a life threading diy accident or attempt to take your own life we can probably meet face to face and continue the discussion.
You’ve on a number of occasions tried to belittle statements which are firsthand, you do that from a position where actually you’ve not stepped foot in a hospital, you haven’t had to deal with distraught relatives, the patients, you’ve not had to work under the conditions of the pandemic, the policies and directives of Mr Hancock... in short, you actually know fuck all on the subject or the reality beyond what you’ve been spoon fed by a politically biased PR team desperately trying to maintain credibility in a disaster which they have contributed heavily too.
The only thing you’ve established is you have fuck all understanding of the reality... sorry x
Irony is you calling me "mr smarty pants", "armchair strategist", "professor mellow fellow" and so on and then crying that i am "belittling" you
Im sorry if me providing evidence makes you feel inferior however that is your problem, not mine.
“Mr smarty pants”? I suggest you consult your sources as it seems you’re now making shit up fella.
Crying... fair point, I’ve done a bit of that during the last 5 months, it’s not something I see as a weakness but I would probably caveat it’s something I reserve for life’s more challenging moments, not some self appointed forum hero.
As for you making me feel inferior... how exactly does that work? What do you have that I am in awe of? I’ve read your posts, looked at your profile... I don’t see it.
I said your approach is belittling. To suggest people’s deaths are a work of fiction to someone who’s through choice dealt with them says a lot about your humanity, it says a lot about your general nature as a person. It may come as a shock to you but after 3 decades living a trans lifestyle I’ve experienced a fair amount of males trying to put me down, humiliate, belittle, bully or whatever term you wish to use.
I can assure you your impact on me personally is a very big zero.
Fair enough, it was "mr expert" not smarty pants. I guess i lost track of the names and insults you dish out.
As for making shit up, that's your forte, alongside playing the victim, hypocrisy and belittling others yourself. This says a lot about YOUR general nature.
I haven't belittled you, said the deaths are a work of fiction or made one reference to you being trans. You know what i meant when I said you are crying about me 'belittling' you and as always you try to manipulate it for the sympathy vote. It is pathetic.
Oh dear, one has to love an angry little narcissist... not sure why my opinion about an environment I work in is ‘making stuff up’, whereas your opinion is the word of god but I’ll leave you to it.
Fear not you’ll still be treated ‘without judgement’ when you turn up from that potentially fatal diy accident.
X
I suggest you look up the definition of narcissist and then have a good look at yourself and your contributions to this thread.
"Narcissistic personality disorder involves a pattern of self-centered, arrogant thinking and behavior, a lack of empathy and consideration for other people, and an excessive need for admiration. Others often describe people with NPD as cocky, manipulative, selfish, patronizing, and demanding. This way of thinking and behaving surfaces in every area of the narcissist’s life: from work and friendships to family and love relationships.
People with narcissistic personality disorder are extremely resistant to changing their behavior, even when it’s causing them problems. Their tendency is to turn the blame on to others. What’s more, they are extremely sensitive and react badly to even the slightest criticisms, disagreements, or perceived slights, which they view as personal attacks.
Narcissists feel threatened whenever they encounter someone who appears to have something they lack—especially those who are confident and popular. They’re also threatened by people who don’t kowtow to them or who challenge them in any way. Their defense mechanism is contempt. The only way to neutralize the threat and prop up their own sagging ego is to put those people down. They may do it in a patronizing or dismissive way as if to demonstrate how little the other person means to them. Or they may go on the attack with insults, name-calling, bullying, and threats to force the other person back into line."
Ps, i know i could remove some of the quote to make it easier to read but for now i will leave it in so people can refer to it and make their own mind up who is a narcissist.
Hey “Mellow Fellow”, any chance you can ‘Mellow’ now ?
You’ve gone way off topic along with the other poster and it’s just getting personal now.
I’m not taking sides, but I address you instead of the other poster, coz I’m expecting or assuming you to be a real ‘mellow fellow’"Sure, i am already mellow and have been throughout. Lets not confuse mellow with pushover though. I am quite entitled to rebuff insults against me and have not once sworn or gotten angry/abusive. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one! "Ditto! 65,000 more deaths over the same period averaged over the last five years. Whike I'm sure some deaths have been mis represented. This of course can happen any time. And sometimes cause of death is complicated. Someone suffering from an underlying disease who succumbs to flu for example. The fact is though, total deaths are way higher than the headline figures that the government likes to publicise in mainstream media. Maybe they aren't all Covid...but it's highly likely they are. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So excess deaths since March 2020 are over 65,000 in the UK. Apart from Covid 19, what has caused these? Interested to hear the theories on this one!
Ditto!
65,000 more deaths over the same period averaged over the last five years.
Whike I'm sure some deaths have been mis represented. This of course can happen any time. And sometimes cause of death is complicated. Someone suffering from an underlying disease who succumbs to flu for example.
The fact is though, total deaths are way higher than the headline figures that the government likes to publicise in mainstream media.
Maybe they aren't all Covid...but it's highly likely they are. "Exactly! | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Sure, i am already mellow and have been throughout. Lets not confuse mellow with pushover though. I am quite entitled to rebuff insults against me and have not once sworn or gotten angry/abusive. " And exhale... just leave it, we are agreed neither of us particularly likes the other/opinion... a fine outcome in both books I’m sure x | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
 | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"You know you can post without quoting everything that's been said so far ? Your personal bickering is fun but getting hard to read "******************************* Think of the server space used, eh...??!!
Eva X | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Like anyone is bothered... why not go play with your power tools and in the meantime I’ll get your bed sorted and COVID-19 death certificate drawn up instead hunni x "Their defense mechanism is contempt." - check "The only way to neutralize the threat and prop up their own sagging ego is to put those people down." - check "They may do it in a patronizing or dismissive way as if to demonstrate how little the other person means to them." - check "Or they may go on the attack with insults, name-calling, bullying, and threats to force the other person back into line." - check " | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"There is no herd immunity - peak antibodies are 3 weeks after the virus is caught and many show no antibodies 7 weeks later. nearly 50% of a symptomatic patients who had covid had serious heart defects when scanned. It is dangerous out there guys - stay as safe as you can and don't listen to the buffoon that shakes hands with covid patients and ignores lockdown advice and has the highest death rate in Europe. the second wave will hit and this time we will be looking for a new pm one way or another - how about a union under the Scottish leadership or Wales?" rubbish about the antibodies. I'm part of a research test.. and I've been showing antibodies for much longer than 7 weeks. And as I've been confirmed to have had it last year... I'd say this was the 2nd wave | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"There is no herd immunity - peak antibodies are 3 weeks after the virus is caught and many show no antibodies 7 weeks later. nearly 50% of a symptomatic patients who had covid had serious heart defects when scanned. It is dangerous out there guys - stay as safe as you can and don't listen to the buffoon that shakes hands with covid patients and ignores lockdown advice and has the highest death rate in Europe. the second wave will hit and this time we will be looking for a new pm one way or another - how about a union under the Scottish leadership or Wales? rubbish about the antibodies. I'm part of a research test.. and I've been showing antibodies for much longer than 7 weeks. And as I've been confirmed to have had it last year... I'd say this was the 2nd wave" That's good to know as I had pneumonia in February, and I'm getting some bloods taken in three weeks time, and they are doing a antibody test then...I was a little worried it might have been to late as the antibodies might have gone. So as I said good to know | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"There is no herd immunity - peak antibodies are 3 weeks after the virus is caught and many show no antibodies 7 weeks later. nearly 50% of a symptomatic patients who had covid had serious heart defects when scanned. It is dangerous out there guys - stay as safe as you can and don't listen to the buffoon that shakes hands with covid patients and ignores lockdown advice and has the highest death rate in Europe. the second wave will hit and this time we will be looking for a new pm one way or another - how about a union under the Scottish leadership or Wales? rubbish about the antibodies. I'm part of a research test.. and I've been showing antibodies for much longer than 7 weeks. And as I've been confirmed to have had it last year... I'd say this was the 2nd wave That's good to know as I had pneumonia in February, and I'm getting some bloods taken in three weeks time, and they are doing a antibody test then...I was a little worried it might have been to late as the antibodies might have gone. So as I said good to know "I dont know how common it is but I just know they are using me as a test subject. It came about due to me applying to help with the vaccine. X | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Or is it a case of trying to lower the numbers so its less of an embarrassment to the government on just how shit a job they have done?" Youve knocked it on the head. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I'm wary of this as it's open to political interference. If you're hit by a bus after getting covid then clearly it should not be counted. But if you get killed by a breathing illness a month or so after coming out of hospital then does that mean they're unrelated? A low death toll might actually get the country closer sooner but people have a habit of behaving ignorantly of the risks. Where's the cut off point for a death not being covid related." Good point *thumb) As some people who get covid only get the sniffles and they think it's gone away...but we are finding they developed lung and circulation disorders which where not there before and both can be killers... | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I'm wary of this as it's open to political interference. If you're hit by a bus after getting covid then clearly it should not be counted. But if you get killed by a breathing illness a month or so after coming out of hospital then does that mean they're unrelated? A low death toll might actually get the country closer sooner but people have a habit of behaving ignorantly of the risks. Where's the cut off point for a death not being covid related. Good point *thumb) As some people who get covid only get the sniffles and they think it's gone away...but we are finding they developed lung and circulation disorders which where not there before and both can be killers... " Or perhaps Covid exploits a weakness previously unnoticed | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Or perhaps Covid exploits a weakness previously unnoticed" Yes. Back when deaths were reported on pretty much a case by case basis, 'previously undiagnosed condition' was mentioned quite often. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| Post new Message to Thread |
| back to top |  |
