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"Labour's new policy that all expats looking to attain permanent settlement in the UK will need to demonstrate an A'Level standard of English just makes me laugh. Especially when a good proportion of the "indigenous" population struggle to differentiate between there, their and they're or your and you're. Why on earth are Labour fanboying and appeasing to the Faragists? " It's a peculiar policy when you consider the average literacy and numeracy age in the UK is around 9 or 10. The Labour party do need to take action on small boat crossings but they'll never go far enough to get support from the far right. I can only make the assumption that they believe this will get them support from Conservative voters who don't want to vote Reform or Conservative. I'm not entirely certain their actions will win those votes either. | |||
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" The Labour party do need to take action on small boat crossings but they'll never go far enough to get support from the far right. I can only make the assumption that they believe this will get them support from Conservative voters who don't want to vote Reform or Conservative. I'm not entirely certain their actions will win those votes either." Red Wall voters is what they are trying to hold, after it collapsed last decade. | |||
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"I haven't read the article but is not the only way of proving you have an A level standard of English is to actually take the same A level exam that is set for students in that year. I don't think the A level exam is necessarily marked on use of grammar,spelling etc. Is it not about expression and comprehension ? I may be out of touch of course. " There's English language (SPaG and language use generally) and English literature (analysis of written stuff and its themes, meanings, etc.). | |||
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"Can understand the main ideas of complex text on both concrete and abstract topics, including technical discussions in their field of specialisation. Can interact with a degree of fluency and spontaneity that makes regular interaction with native speakers quite possible without strain for either party. Can produce clear, detailed text on a wide range of subjects and explain a viewpoint on a topical issue giving the advantages and disadvantages of various options." | |||
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"Strange policy, this will just prevent those coming through the legal channels from settling. Usually they are the people we need to boost the economy." It has echoes of the "white Australia policy". It's clearly looking to give preference to people from English-speaking countries. An argument could be made to prefer people from compatible cultures, but it's easy to slide into pure racism and xenophobia. | |||
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"It's a peculiar policy when you consider the average literacy and numeracy age in the UK is around 9 or 10. " I was quite shocked to read that, but apparently that is the case. . National Literacy Trust (2011 Survey) 14.9% of adults had literacy levels at or below “Entry Level 3”, which is equivalent to the literacy skills expected of a 9‑11 year‑old. . NHS Health Literacy Library (2017): "The majority of adults in England are in the 11‑14 year old reading age group" . From the “Regional health literacy” page (North East and North Cumbria Integrated Care System): “The average reading age of adults in the UK is 9–11 years old". Date unknown. . NIHR Evidence (2022): “In the UK, 7.1 million adults read at, or below, the level of an average 9‑year‑old.” . PubMed Central (2024) : By S. Haider : "the average reading level in the UK as “year 5”. If you translate that: Year 5 in school means age 9‑10" . That's shocking isn't it ? And it has completely made me think about reframing the way I write information for my peers. | |||
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"It's a peculiar policy when you consider the average literacy and numeracy age in the UK is around 9 or 10." "I was quite shocked to read that, but apparently that is the case..." This is what Radio 4's "More or Less" program calls a Zombie Statistic. It rattles around the internet getting constantly repeated, with each repetition giving it more credence, but with no one actually checking to see if it's true. In short, there is no accepted test to measure reading age, and the average person in the UK can read at well above what we would expect of a 9 year old. Podcast link (item starts at 16:41): https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000dypf | |||
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"It's a peculiar policy when you consider the average literacy and numeracy age in the UK is around 9 or 10. I was quite shocked to read that, but apparently that is the case... This is what Radio 4's "More or Less" program calls a Zombie Statistic. It rattles around the internet getting constantly repeated, with each repetition giving it more credence, but with no one actually checking to see if it's true. In short, there is no accepted test to measure reading age, and the average person in the UK can read at well above what we would expect of a 9 year old. Podcast link (item starts at 16:41): https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000dypf" Where reading is concerned, someone else has usually done the donkey work..ie the writing! | |||
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"It's a peculiar policy when you consider the average literacy and numeracy age in the UK is around 9 or 10. I was quite shocked to read that, but apparently that is the case... This is what Radio 4's "More or Less" program calls a Zombie Statistic. It rattles around the internet getting constantly repeated, with each repetition giving it more credence, but with no one actually checking to see if it's true. In short, there is no accepted test to measure reading age, and the average person in the UK can read at well above what we would expect of a 9 year old. Podcast link (item starts at 16:41): https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000dypf" The NHS have done research in to this and research showed that 9-11 is the average age for numeracy and literacy. My own experience in life would also point to this being accurate. I've worked with a surprising amount of people who either can't read or have very poor levels of reading, numeracy and comprehension. I would imagine if you're listening to radio 4 we have moved in very different circles in life. | |||
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"...I've worked with a surprising amount of people who either can't read or have very poor levels of reading, numeracy and comprehension..." Did you mean to say "number of people"?  | |||
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"The NHS have done research in to this and research showed that 9-11 is the average age for numeracy and literacy. My own experience in life would also point to this being accurate. I've worked with a surprising amount of people who either can't read or have very poor levels of reading, numeracy and comprehension." This is why it's called a Zombie Statistic, you shoot it down, and it just comes back again. Where is this NHS research? Can you find a copy of it? Ask yourself why would the NHS be doing research into reading ages? Why would such research come up with an average of 'between 9 and 11'. There's a lot of difference between a 9 year old and an 11 year old. Why haven't they narrowed that range down a bit? Yes there are plenty of people that can't read. As someone else posted earlier the National Literacy Trust found that 14.9% of adults had literacy levels at or below 'Entry Level 3', which is equivalent to the literacy skills expected of a 9‑11 year‑old. That means that about 15% of people are at or below the 9-11 reading age range. You can't possibly get an average of 9-11 if 85% of the population are above that level. "I would imagine if you're listening to radio 4 we have moved in very different circles in life." If you think Radio 4 is just for posh people, you're very wrong. | |||
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"I'm a fan of Radio 4 but More or Less is an absolute joke. For instance they said that a nautical mile was the same as a statute mile and when many people complained they doubled down and insisted that it really was. Even more complaints followed until someone from More or Less eventually bothered to check." Why do people make these baseless claims when the truth is so easy to find? In one episode of the podcast a guest (a comedian) said "a nautical mile is like a normal mile, but wetter". They got lots of complaints, and had to explain in the next episode that it was only a joke. Here's the episode (item starts at 20:05): https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001817c | |||
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"...I've worked with a surprising amount of people who either can't read or have very poor levels of reading, numeracy and comprehension... Did you mean to say "number of people"? "At least 'amount' is better than 'shitloads'... | |||
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"Maybe my memory has failed but I'm pretty sure I listened to three epsiodes of More or Less discussing the nautical mile. In the first they made the error, in the second they doubled down and only in the third did they correct it." There were 3 episodes. In the first, a comedian said that "nautical miles are just like normal miles but wetter". They got complaints so the next week they brought him back to explain, and he said that obviously nautical miles weren't wetter as they are buoyant so they remain dry whilst being exactly the same as statute miles. This was obviously another joke, but still people complained and they had to make an announcement the following week for those people that have no sense of humour. But you don't have to take my word for it, you can hear it for yourself on the link I posted above. | |||
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"There were 3 episodes. In the first, a comedian said that "nautical miles are just like normal miles but wetter". They got complaints so the next week they brought him back to explain, and he said that obviously nautical miles weren't wetter as they are buoyant so they remain dry whilst being exactly the same as statute miles. This was obviously another joke, but still people complained and they had to make an announcement the following week for those people that have no sense of humour. But you don't have to take my word for it, you can hear it for yourself on the link I posted above." I listened to the episodes when they were broadcast. As I said More or Less is an absolute joke. If it went for a pure comedy angle then I'd be happy but It pretends to be a programme that debunks false statistics especially from political sources but in reality it doesn't and sometimes it actually promotes falsehoods. It's probable the worst thing on Radio 4 after The Archers. | |||
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"As I said More or Less is an absolute joke. If it went for a pure comedy angle then I'd be happy but It pretends to be a programme that debunks false statistics especially from political sources but in reality it doesn't and sometimes it actually promotes falsehoods. It's probable the worst thing on Radio 4 after The Archers. " Give us an example of something the program has got wrong. I'd particularly like to hear about the falsehoods it promotes. | |||
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"Give us an example of something the program has got wrong. I'd particularly like to hear about the falsehoods it promotes." Give me an example seems to be your standard line of argument on every topic that comes up on this forum. I can see the attraction as it involves zero effort on your part. I've already given you an example of this noddy programme saying that a nautical mile is the same as a statute mile. I could go into another egregious example but frankly it's not worth the effort about something so trivial. If you think More or Less is a comedy show rather than a serious one then we can at least agree on that. | |||
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"Give us an example of something the program has got wrong. I'd particularly like to hear about the falsehoods it promotes." "Give me an example seems to be your standard line of argument on every topic that comes up on this forum." I like More or Less, and I trust the program. They do make mistakes, but they're very good about correcting them in the next episode. If you have any examples of things they got wrong, I would genuinely be interested to hear what they are. "I've already given you an example of this noddy programme saying that a nautical mile is the same as a statute mile." And I've already shown that it was a joke. And a very obvious one. "I could go into another egregious example but frankly it's not worth the effort about something so trivial." The way I see it is that you posted what you believed to be true, that they'd mixed up nautical and statute miles. You then felt embarrassed when I pointed out that it was obviously not true, and gave links for proof. So now you're resorting to "well they do lots of other things wrong" without giving any examples. I think you're trying to save face by casting aspersions with no basis in fact. | |||
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"LOL. It takes a lot to make me embarrassed. I simply can't be arsed continuing to argue with you over something so trivial." Well said. | |||
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" ... It's probable the worst thing on Radio 4 after The Archers. " How soon after The Archers is it? | |||
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"...I've worked with a surprising amount of people who either can't read or have very poor levels of reading, numeracy and comprehension... Did you mean to say "number of people"? "Interesting comment, petty, but interesting. | |||
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"...I've worked with a surprising amount of people who either can't read or have very poor levels of reading, numeracy and comprehension... Did you mean to say "number of people"?
Interesting comment, petty, but interesting."It's only considered petty if one corrects someone's grammar when they're NOT commenting on others' English language abilities... | |||
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"It’s a little known fact that approximately 50% of the population are below average." Or that most people have more than the average number of ears | |||
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"Labour's new policy that all expats looking to attain permanent settlement in the UK will need to demonstrate an A'Level standard of English just makes me laugh. Especially when a good proportion of the "indigenous" population struggle to differentiate between there, their and they're or your and you're. Why on earth are Labour fanboying and appeasing to the Faragists? " It doesn’t need to be A level standard, but it needs to be better than it currently is. Many foreigners living here speak English incredibly badly. | |||
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"In this scenario the level of English in British citizens is irrelevant, they are not applying to live here, they already have that right. It is an indication of commitment by someone who wishes to gain British citizenship that they are prepared to meet specific standards. Many countries have requirements for people wishing to obtain citizenship that are beyond the attainment of large portions of their indigenous citizens. Take for example the financial requirements when wishing to emigrate to some countries, proof of capital and annual income that is beyond many who were born in the country. " The left always make the comparison between white British people and abilities, or lack of, to speak English correctly and any requirement for foreigners wanting to live here to speak it well. There’s a difference between someone telling you what they done last night or when they was last doing this or that and someone still needing everything translated into English after living here for decades. | |||
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"What a great way to trigger inferiority in Reform voters." Do you think it’s ok for someone to live here and essentially have no idea what’s going on a lot of the time because they don’t speak English fluently? Does that not potentially put them in danger and make them vulnerable? Is that ok with you? | |||
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"What a great way to trigger inferiority in Reform voters. Do you think it’s ok for someone to live here and essentially have no idea what’s going on a lot of the time because they don’t speak English fluently? Does that not potentially put them in danger and make them vulnerable? Is that ok with you?" Your comment borders the edge of a long list of fallacies. It’s not debate, you’re just trying to make and win an argument. It shouldn’t need answering but no, that is not ok with me. | |||
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"What a great way to trigger inferiority in Reform voters. Do you think it’s ok for someone to live here and essentially have no idea what’s going on a lot of the time because they don’t speak English fluently? Does that not potentially put them in danger and make them vulnerable? Is that ok with you?" Probably it's not good for them to not to be able to speak the language long term. You make a good point that this could make them vulnerable. However for me the important thing is their willingness to learn the language and the society they live in as this shows they are serious about integrating. 'A' level standard seems high to me but they should be able to hold conversation and understand what's going on | |||
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" ... There’s a difference between someone telling you what they done last night or when they was last doing this or that and someone still needing everything translated into English after living here for decades." There's certainly some not very well concealed irony in that last paragraph! | |||
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"Yet again, big, big difference - and confusion by some posters - between "living here", "residency" and citizenship". Here in France I have a Carte de Séjour which permits me to come and go as I please (no 90-day rubbish or passport stamping), get a job, entitlement to medical services etc. I could NOT become a French Citizen, vote for national Government etc, without proving knowledge of its culture and history. AND a quite difficult language test. No big deal..." Exactly. We have bought a house in France and need to navigate the visa system to get the Carte de Séjour. The language requirements are fairly onerous and are being tightened. The requirement will be similar to A level. So that is what we need to do. No problem. Requires a bit more work but I am able to converse in day to day life and also with the tax office in French already. No translators are supplied by the French, unlike the soft touch UK. | |||
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"Yes yes omg yes, Read what Leroy has written and you’ll see that logical discourse in this matter is possible." Suggesting that someone without an A-level in English is a danger to themselves is not logical discourse. If Leroy wants to engage with your fallacious points, it’s his own time. | |||
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"Hi Leroy… A level standard I agree is too high, that’s just headline grabbing, but could they read what you and I have written and understand us and give us their own opinion and we can all have a conversation? Could they read and understand an employment contract or rental agreement? Will they rely on translators for pretty much everything years later? If they will, they can jog on! "Yes A level may well be to grab some headlines and is unnecessary. Being able to read, write and have a general conversation in the language is required and will help them hugely. What's important is the willingness to learn as opposed to the final level of education. | |||
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"Yes yes omg yes, Read what Leroy has written and you’ll see that logical discourse in this matter is possible. Suggesting that someone without an A-level in English is a danger to themselves is not logical discourse. If Leroy wants to engage with your fallacious points, it’s his own time." You’re a middle class socialist… I’m right, aren’t I? | |||
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"Yes yes omg yes, Read what Leroy has written and you’ll see that logical discourse in this matter is possible. Suggesting that someone without an A-level in English is a danger to themselves is not logical discourse. If Leroy wants to engage with your fallacious points, it’s his own time. You’re a middle class socialist… I’m right, aren’t I? " No. I’m born of working class parents and get my hands dirty for a living. As for politics I’ve become less dogmatic as I’ve aged. I follow and value sources from both extremes. | |||
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