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"Can this be supported without offending others? I believe so! Can I get a free Palestine or simple Yes from anyone? Curious " What does it mean though? I’m not being facetious. Different people have different definitions of what “free Palestine” means. Some I agree with, some I don’t. | |||
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"Can this be supported without offending others? I believe so! Can I get a free Palestine or simple Yes from anyone? Curious What does it mean though? I’m not being facetious. Different people have different definitions of what “free Palestine” means. Some I agree with, some I don’t." I mean I could answer that, but maybe you can explain the definitions you don’t agree with. Or just say - yes, or no | |||
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"I don't support palestine or Israel. But i can't understand when the gays support palestine!?? That's not our safe place Sis! And the boycotting trend. If you're boycotting companies you're playing with other peoples job, income... especially in a foreign country!??" The pro Palestine/anti Saudi Arabia grouping is an interesting exercise in cognitive dissonance. I am very pro Palestinian. Always have been since I grew up in the area as a child. That doesn’t mean I am anti Israeli. Whether that offends other people, I have no idea OP. | |||
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"I don't support palestine or Israel. But i can't understand when the gays support palestine!?? That's not our safe place Sis! And the boycotting trend. If you're boycotting companies you're playing with other peoples job, income... especially in a foreign country!??" Maybe because the genocide of the Palestinians is a human atrocity, religion or sexuality doesn’t matter. | |||
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"I don't support palestine or Israel. But i can't understand when the gays support palestine!?? That's not our safe place Sis! And the boycotting trend. If you're boycotting companies you're playing with other peoples job, income... especially in a foreign country!?? The pro Palestine/anti Saudi Arabia grouping is an interesting exercise in cognitive dissonance. I am very pro Palestinian. Always have been since I grew up in the area as a child. That doesn’t mean I am anti Israeli. Whether that offends other people, I have no idea OP." Basically this. Saying your pro Palestine, doesn’t make you an anti-Semite or anti-west. | |||
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"Politics forum for this please Mods" Agree.... I'm sure there's a politics thread on here | |||
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"I don't support palestine or Israel. But i can't understand when the gays support palestine!?? That's not our safe place Sis! And the boycotting trend. If you're boycotting companies you're playing with other peoples job, income... especially in a foreign country!?? Maybe because the genocide of the Palestinians is a human atrocity, religion or sexuality doesn’t matter. " Please explain to me that why is it okay if a terrorist group does the same? | |||
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"I don't support palestine or Israel. But i can't understand when the gays support palestine!?? That's not our safe place Sis! And the boycotting trend. If you're boycotting companies you're playing with other peoples job, income... especially in a foreign country!?? Maybe because the genocide of the Palestinians is a human atrocity, religion or sexuality doesn’t matter. Please explain to me that why is it okay if a terrorist group does the same? " Does what sorry? And which terorist group specifically? | |||
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"Commenting on genocide may be political, but it is in the first instance a humanitarian issue and therefore people need to be allowed to speak out at every possible opportunity. " Thank you | |||
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"The World is F***** We don't always have to take a side, remember that." We don’t always need to sit on the fence either while hundreds of thousands die. Remember that too. | |||
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"I don't support palestine or Israel. But i can't understand when the gays support palestine!?? That's not our safe place Sis! And the boycotting trend. If you're boycotting companies you're playing with other peoples job, income... especially in a foreign country!??" Beats me. The LGBQ community are frowned upon in certain parts of middle east. As a side, a chap i met through work this week expressed an opinion that no Jews should be living in the middle east. I asked him his background and he identified as Pakistani muslim but born and bred in Birmingham. Did the conversation help me understand anything more clearly? Did it f7ck! | |||
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"The World is F***** We don't always have to take a side, remember that. We don’t always need to sit on the fence either while hundreds of thousands die. Remember that too." Discretion is the better part of valour. You would be wise to remember that too...and the definition of subjectivity whilst you are at it.  | |||
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"I don't support palestine or Israel. But i can't understand when the gays support palestine!?? That's not our safe place Sis! And the boycotting trend. If you're boycotting companies you're playing with other peoples job, income... especially in a foreign country!?? Beats me. The LGBQ community are frowned upon in certain parts of middle east. As a side, a chap i met through work this week expressed an opinion that no Jews should be living in the middle east. I asked him his background and he identified as Pakistani muslim but born and bred in Birmingham. Did the conversation help me understand anything more clearly? Did it f7ck!" If that happened, it’s definitely a little ignorant. O have no ill feelings towards Jews. I don’t against all Israelis, but there genocidal ethno supremacist values are making them a pariah to many countries, but just in the Middke East | |||
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"The World is F***** We don't always have to take a side, remember that. We don’t always need to sit on the fence either while hundreds of thousands die. Remember that too. Discretion is the better part of valour. You would be wise to remember that too...and the definition of subjectivity whilst you are at it. "That makes even less sense than your first response | |||
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"Can this be supported without offending others? I believe so! Can I get a free Palestine or simple Yes from anyone? Curious What does it mean though? I’m not being facetious. Different people have different definitions of what “free Palestine” means. Some I agree with, some I don’t. I mean I could answer that, but maybe you can explain the definitions you don’t agree with. Or just say - yes, or no" I agree with Palestinians living peacefully and safely, without fear of death, starvation, violence or poverty. I don’t agree with the view that Israel is Palestine and therefore a “free Palestine” means the destruction of Israel. Which is what Hamas, many Palestinians and Palestinian supporters believe. | |||
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"I don't support palestine or Israel. But i can't understand when the gays support palestine!?? That's not our safe place Sis! And the boycotting trend. If you're boycotting companies you're playing with other peoples job, income... especially in a foreign country!?? Maybe because the genocide of the Palestinians is a human atrocity, religion or sexuality doesn’t matter. Please explain to me that why is it okay if a terrorist group does the same? " Are you comparing a multi day terrorist attack that killed 1200 to a two year long genocide, sociocide and the blocking of aid and all press reporting? No amount of explanations can fix indifference to suffering , you either care about the suffering of people that are a different colour, religion and live a long way away, or you don’t. I actually have more respect for people who are honest and just say it’s outside my circle of concern, I have my own issues to deal with, it’s too big and complex for me to think about, than those who join in the debate and try and excuse what is going on | |||
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"My personal beliefs are that Hamas are terrorists and Netanyahu is a butcher. I believe that Israel has a right to exist without fear of terrorism and I believe that Palestinians have the right to live freely and without oppression. Neither are likely to happen with the current leadership. I also think that the situation is a bit deeper than a simple Free Palestine slogan or singing From The River to The Sea"  | |||
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"My personal beliefs are that Hamas are terrorists and Netanyahu is a butcher. I believe that Israel has a right to exist without fear of terrorism and I believe that Palestinians have the right to live freely and without oppression. Neither are likely to happen with the current leadership. I also think that the situation is a bit deeper than a simple Free Palestine slogan or singing From The River to The Sea "Most of what you’ve mentioned I agree with. Israel though not only has a right to exist, it does exist. State sponsored terrorism almost always leads to resistance. Maybe you misconstrued my initial. Post. The whole idea was to get a free Palestine. Saying yes, without getting into deep geopolitics, which isn’t always needed. | |||
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"The World is F***** We don't always have to take a side, remember that. We don’t always need to sit on the fence either while hundreds of thousands die. Remember that too." Being able to stand back from the issues to see all sides does not equal 'sitting on the fence'. If anything it's a more level-headed perspective and leads to greater understanding and potentially gives a route to mediation. | |||
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"My personal beliefs are that Hamas are terrorists and Netanyahu is a butcher. I believe that Israel has a right to exist without fear of terrorism and I believe that Palestinians have the right to live freely and without oppression. Neither are likely to happen with the current leadership. I also think that the situation is a bit deeper than a simple Free Palestine slogan or singing From The River to The Sea
Most of what you’ve mentioned I agree with. Israel though not only has a right to exist, it does exist. State sponsored terrorism almost always leads to resistance.
Maybe you misconstrued my initial. Post. The whole idea was to get a free Palestine. Saying yes, without getting into deep geopolitics, which isn’t always needed."Freeing Gaza is pointless without removing Hamas. Mrs x | |||
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"The World is F***** We don't always have to take a side, remember that. We don’t always need to sit on the fence either while hundreds of thousands die. Remember that too. Being able to stand back from the issues to see all sides does not equal 'sitting on the fence'. If anything it's a more level-headed perspective and leads to greater understanding and potentially gives a route to mediation." While people are debating this, another 15 or 20 innocent people have already died. Dialogue has been happening for 70 years without a resolution. Israel needs to be acknowledge its war crimes before anything is resolved. | |||
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"The World is F***** We don't always have to take a side, remember that. We don’t always need to sit on the fence either while hundreds of thousands die. Remember that too. Discretion is the better part of valour. You would be wise to remember that too...and the definition of subjectivity whilst you are at it.
That makes even less sense than your first response "I'm not surprised by this response...thought it would be lost on you. Google it and perhaps learn something about compassion and peace? | |||
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"The World is F***** We don't always have to take a side, remember that. We don’t always need to sit on the fence either while hundreds of thousands die. Remember that too. Being able to stand back from the issues to see all sides does not equal 'sitting on the fence'. If anything it's a more level-headed perspective and leads to greater understanding and potentially gives a route to mediation. While people are debating this, another 15 or 20 innocent people have already died. Dialogue has been happening for 70 years without a resolution. Israel needs to be acknowledge its war crimes before anything is resolved." What about Hamas? Mrs x | |||
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"The World is F***** We don't always have to take a side, remember that. We don’t always need to sit on the fence either while hundreds of thousands die. Remember that too. Being able to stand back from the issues to see all sides does not equal 'sitting on the fence'. If anything it's a more level-headed perspective and leads to greater understanding and potentially gives a route to mediation." This. Thankfully somebody understands the bigger picture and how to resolve. To be close minded and disagree is absolutely why the World is in this mess. | |||
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"Freeing Gaza is pointless without removing Hamas. Mrs x" So we just sit back and let innocent children be slaughtered? When have the Israelis ever been happy with a Palestinian government? | |||
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"Freeing Gaza is pointless without removing Hamas. Mrs x So we just sit back and let innocent children be slaughtered? When have the Israelis ever been happy with a Palestinian government?" You are aware there is a ceasefire in place that both sides need to align to? | |||
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"Freeing Gaza is pointless without removing Hamas. Mrs x So we just sit back and let innocent children be slaughtered? When have the Israelis ever been happy with a Palestinian government?" When has Hamas ever been happy with a Jewish state or Jewish people to actually exist? The constitution they had when elected called for tge complete annihilation of the Jews. If you country was invaded, 1200 innocent people killed many hundreds imprisoned wouldn't you expect your country to go to war? Hamas expected Israel to respond in such a way, shouldn't they then accept some responsibilities for the deaths of the civilians they are supposed to protect? Mrs x | |||
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" While people are debating this, another 15 or 20 innocent people have already died. Dialogue has been happening for 70 years without a resolution. Israel needs to be acknowledge its war crimes before anything is resolved." Do you think it's possible to cow that regime? To use force on a miltary-minded, feudal totalitarian dictatorship? To force peace or defeat on war mongerers at the point of a weapon? Are you serious? Were you here for Gaddafi and Saddam? What has changed since they were removed? Remove the head and another takes it's place. It's not the person. It's the regime. It's the way of life and the belief system. You won't change that with a weapon. | |||
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"Freeing Gaza is pointless without removing Hamas. Mrs x So we just sit back and let innocent children be slaughtered? When have the Israelis ever been happy with a Palestinian government? You are aware there is a ceasefire in place that both sides need to align to? " Yes, and Israel has since violated the truce at least 47 times, killing 38 Palestinians and injuring 143 others | |||
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"The World is F***** We don't always have to take a side, remember that. We don’t always need to sit on the fence either while hundreds of thousands die. Remember that too. Discretion is the better part of valour. You would be wise to remember that too...and the definition of subjectivity whilst you are at it. "To be pedantic, the correct quote is "The better part of valour is discretion," from Shakespeare's play Henry IV, Part 1. Since I doubt is any of us are currently in Gaza our opinions will not risk our life. | |||
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"Freeing Gaza is pointless without removing Hamas. Mrs x So we just sit back and let innocent children be slaughtered? When have the Israelis ever been happy with a Palestinian government? You are aware there is a ceasefire in place that both sides need to align to? " Hamas have already stated they will not give up their arms, even though they say they will stand down from ruling Gaza. Thats in direct contravention of the peace plan. They've also been talking about a 'ceasefire' lasting a set number of years, why say that. Because they need an extended period to re group, re-arm and then start attacking again. Mrs x | |||
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" While people are debating this, another 15 or 20 innocent people have already died. Dialogue has been happening for 70 years without a resolution. Israel needs to be acknowledge its war crimes before anything is resolved. Do you think it's possible to cow that regime? To use force on a miltary-minded, feudal totalitarian dictatorship? To force peace or defeat on war mongerers at the point of a weapon? Are you serious? Were you here for Gaddafi and Saddam? What has changed since they were removed? Remove the head and another takes it's place. It's not the person. It's the regime. It's the way of life and the belief system. You won't change that with a weapon." History does agree with you, Nazism is one such example, Mrs x | |||
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" While people are debating this, another 15 or 20 innocent people have already died. Dialogue has been happening for 70 years without a resolution. Israel needs to be acknowledge its war crimes before anything is resolved. Do you think it's possible to cow that regime? To use force on a miltary-minded, feudal totalitarian dictatorship? To force peace or defeat on war mongerers at the point of a weapon? Are you serious? Were you here for Gaddafi and Saddam? What has changed since they were removed? Remove the head and another takes it's place. It's not the person. It's the regime. It's the way of life and the belief system. You won't change that with a weapon.History does agree with you, Nazism is one such example, Mrs x" Doesn't agree I meant, Mrs x | |||
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"Freeing Gaza is pointless without removing Hamas. Mrs x So we just sit back and let innocent children be slaughtered? When have the Israelis ever been happy with a Palestinian government? You are aware there is a ceasefire in place that both sides need to align to? Yes, and Israel has since violated the truce at least 47 times, killing 38 Palestinians and injuring 143 others" Ceasefire agreements do tend to fall apart and then reform, it is how these things work. Going back to the figures you quoted ref 15 to 20 innocents have been killed while debating this, that doesn't tally with the numbers you have provided through 3 weeks of the ceasefire, which you claim is 38. Did you set out to be sensationalist, or have I missed your point? | |||
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"Freeing Gaza is pointless without removing Hamas. Mrs x So we just sit back and let innocent children be slaughtered? When have the Israelis ever been happy with a Palestinian government? You are aware there is a ceasefire in place that both sides need to align to? Yes, and Israel has since violated the truce at least 47 times, killing 38 Palestinians and injuring 143 others" Hamas executed almost as many Palestinians in September this killing, killing 33 Gazans, is that ok? Mrs x | |||
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" While people are debating this, another 15 or 20 innocent people have already died. Dialogue has been happening for 70 years without a resolution. Israel needs to be acknowledge its war crimes before anything is resolved. Do you think it's possible to cow that regime? To use force on a miltary-minded, feudal totalitarian dictatorship? To force peace or defeat on war mongerers at the point of a weapon? Are you serious? Were you here for Gaddafi and Saddam? What has changed since they were removed? Remove the head and another takes it's place. It's not the person. It's the regime. It's the way of life and the belief system. You won't change that with a weapon.History does agree with you, Nazism is one such example, Mrs xDoesn't agree I meant, Mrs x" I actually was thinking of that and if it played my point false but I don't know if the radical 'aryan race' can be equated to this cultural/religious war. They are similar but different. I know many will disagree but I see the middle east as a whole other level of deeply deeply deeply held division. | |||
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"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world that being anti-Israel was antisemitic" Alright Kaiser haha, Mrs x | |||
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"Freeing Gaza is pointless without removing Hamas. Mrs x So we just sit back and let innocent children be slaughtered? When have the Israelis ever been happy with a Palestinian government? You are aware there is a ceasefire in place that both sides need to align to? Hamas have already stated they will not give up their arms, even though they say they will stand down from ruling Gaza. Thats in direct contravention of the peace plan. They've also been talking about a 'ceasefire' lasting a set number of years, why say that. Because they need an extended period to re group, re-arm and then start attacking again. Mrs x" Hamas are an evil group, and agreed they will disperse and reappear armed and refreshed. The only way they will be defeated is at the hands of the Palestinians. The Palestinians need breathing space and protection, from that place of safety they can remove Hamas and others who will replace them. It is in their interests to remove the terrorists and start rebuild thier futures. | |||
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"Freeing Gaza is pointless without removing Hamas. Mrs x So we just sit back and let innocent children be slaughtered? When have the Israelis ever been happy with a Palestinian government? You are aware there is a ceasefire in place that both sides need to align to? Yes, and Israel has since violated the truce at least 47 times, killing 38 Palestinians and injuring 143 others Ceasefire agreements do tend to fall apart and then reform, it is how these things work. Going back to the figures you quoted ref 15 to 20 innocents have been killed while debating this, that doesn't tally with the numbers you have provided through 3 weeks of the ceasefire, which you claim is 38. Did you set out to be sensationalist, or have I missed your point? " It’s a guesstimate on how many are likely to have been killed. We’re never going to know the true death toll as Israel doesn’t let the international press in. So yeah, you missed my point. | |||
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"Freeing Gaza is pointless without removing Hamas. Mrs x So we just sit back and let innocent children be slaughtered? When have the Israelis ever been happy with a Palestinian government? You are aware there is a ceasefire in place that both sides need to align to? Yes, and Israel has since violated the truce at least 47 times, killing 38 Palestinians and injuring 143 others Ceasefire agreements do tend to fall apart and then reform, it is how these things work. Going back to the figures you quoted ref 15 to 20 innocents have been killed while debating this, that doesn't tally with the numbers you have provided through 3 weeks of the ceasefire, which you claim is 38. Did you set out to be sensationalist, or have I missed your point? It’s a guesstimate on how many are likely to have been killed. We’re never going to know the true death toll as Israel doesn’t let the international press in. So yeah, you missed my point." Now you have explained it was a guess, I think I was spot on and hadn't missed your point. There is literally no need to be sensationalist because the reality is that bad. | |||
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" While people are debating this, another 15 or 20 innocent people have already died. Dialogue has been happening for 70 years without a resolution. Israel needs to be acknowledge its war crimes before anything is resolved. Do you think it's possible to cow that regime? To use force on a miltary-minded, feudal totalitarian dictatorship? To force peace or defeat on war mongerers at the point of a weapon? Are you serious? Were you here for Gaddafi and Saddam? What has changed since they were removed? Remove the head and another takes it's place. It's not the person. It's the regime. It's the way of life and the belief system. You won't change that with a weapon.History does agree with you, Nazism is one such example, Mrs xDoesn't agree I meant, Mrs x I actually was thinking of that and if it played my point false but I don't know if the radical 'aryan race' can be equated to this cultural/religious war. They are similar but different. I know many will disagree but I see the middle east as a whole other level of deeply deeply deeply held division. " But to say regimes cannot be overcome with weapons is not true. This theory that killing always creates others who will take up the cause is false. Look at all the great empires that have fell through conflict and have not re-emerged. If this theory was correct then none of them would have disappeared and they'd have comeback. The Ottoman Empire, a Muslim empire ended after the First World War and that is an example of were conflict ended a regime for it not to return. Mrs x | |||
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"Freeing Gaza is pointless without removing Hamas. Mrs x So we just sit back and let innocent children be slaughtered? When have the Israelis ever been happy with a Palestinian government? You are aware there is a ceasefire in place that both sides need to align to? Hamas have already stated they will not give up their arms, even though they say they will stand down from ruling Gaza. Thats in direct contravention of the peace plan. They've also been talking about a 'ceasefire' lasting a set number of years, why say that. Because they need an extended period to re group, re-arm and then start attacking again. Mrs x Hamas are an evil group, and agreed they will disperse and reappear armed and refreshed. The only way they will be defeated is at the hands of the Palestinians. The Palestinians need breathing space and protection, from that place of safety they can remove Hamas and others who will replace them. It is in their interests to remove the terrorists and start rebuild thier futures. " This i agree with wholeheartedly. There needs to be an end to the violence and I agree the best way would be for the Gazans to do this. The mantra of Free Palestine, seems to be targeted at Israel but the reality is the Palestinians living in Gaza are held captive by a terrorist organisation and will never be Free until they are removed. The mantra should be Free Palestinians from Hamas, otherwise this wont end until Israel remove Hamas by force unfortunately. Mrs x | |||
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"I don't support palestine or Israel. But i can't understand when the gays support palestine!?? That's not our safe place Sis! And the boycotting trend. If you're boycotting companies you're playing with other peoples job, income... especially in a foreign country!?? The pro Palestine/anti Saudi Arabia grouping is an interesting exercise in cognitive dissonance. I am very pro Palestinian. Always have been since I grew up in the area as a child. That doesn’t mean I am anti Israeli. Whether that offends other people, I have no idea OP. Basically this. Saying your pro Palestine, doesn’t make you an anti-Semite or anti-west. " You say "basically this", but you morph "anti-Israeli" into "anti-Semite or anti-west". Was that intentional, because you are, in fact, anti-Israeli (but not, of course, anti-Semitic)? | |||
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"So 15-20 people dying in the space of a few minutes is sensationalist when the estimates are hundreds and thousands have died since the October 7th? " Are you talking about Sudan? If so, your numbers are bang on. Or are you pulling numbers out of your arse? | |||
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"One of the biggest false dichotomies in the world today is the Israel–Palestine conflict. Criticising one side is treated as automatically endorsing the other. Hamas are terrorists. They commit atrocities. This can be true while also saying: Israel is committing war crimes, and there is a genocide in Palestine." I'm not saying Israel hasn't committed war crimes but genocide I'm not sure of. Hamas have committed terrible atrocities and as a terrorist organisation they should be wiped off the face of the earth. Its not a simple situation by any means, Mrs x | |||
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"So 15-20 people dying in the space of a few minutes is sensationalist when the estimates are hundreds and thousands have died since the October 7th? Are you talking about Sudan? If so, your numbers are bang on. Or are you pulling numbers out of your arse?" Oops, misread "hundreds and thousands" add "hundreds of thousands". Sounds like crimes against baking toppings. | |||
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"So 15-20 people dying in the space of a few minutes is sensationalist when the estimates are hundreds and thousands have died since the October 7th? " What about October 7th, do you condemn Hamas's actions? Would the UK have gone to war over a similar circumstance? Mrs x | |||
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"One of the biggest false dichotomies in the world today is the Israel–Palestine conflict. Criticising one side is treated as automatically endorsing the other. Hamas are terrorists. They commit atrocities. This can be true while also saying: Israel is committing war crimes, and there is a genocide in Palestine." A huge proportion of Palestinian deaths are caused by Hamas. It’s in their war manuals. Sacrifice your children, your loved ones and even yourself for the cause. Martyrdom and all that. They refuse to let people evacuate. They massacre those who stand up to them. Funnily enough it’s also in the manuals explaining how to make social media content based on death, and instructs on the type of things to say to maximise sympathy for the cause and raise anger against “Jews”. But it seems people are either unaware of those facts, or willingly ignore them. | |||
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" I actually was thinking of that and if it played my point false but I don't know if the radical 'aryan race' can be equated to this cultural/religious war. They are similar but different. I know many will disagree but I see the middle east as a whole other level of deeply deeply deeply held division. But to say regimes cannot be overcome with weapons is not true. This theory that killing always creates others who will take up the cause is false. Look at all the great empires that have fell through conflict and have not re-emerged. If this theory was correct then none of them would have disappeared and they'd have comeback. The Ottoman Empire, a Muslim empire ended after the First World War and that is an example of were conflict ended a regime for it not to return. Mrs x It's still here, just called something new." What is it called then this Empire you are alluding to? Mrs x | |||
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" It's still here, just called something new.What is it called then this Empire you are alluding to? Mrs x" Erdoganistan? | |||
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"What is it called then this Empire you are alluding to? Mrs x" The middle east conflict. You say there is no religious divide. I say it's what we're talking about and also all the other conflicts between religions be they muslim/jew or muslim/christian or whoever | |||
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"One of the biggest false dichotomies in the world today is the Israel–Palestine conflict. Criticising one side is treated as automatically endorsing the other. Hamas are terrorists. They commit atrocities. This can be true while also saying: Israel is committing war crimes, and there is a genocide in Palestine. A huge proportion of Palestinian deaths are caused by Hamas. It’s in their war manuals. Sacrifice your children, your loved ones and even yourself for the cause. Martyrdom and all that. They refuse to let people evacuate. They massacre those who stand up to them. Funnily enough it’s also in the manuals explaining how to make social media content based on death, and instructs on the type of things to say to maximise sympathy for the cause and raise anger against “Jews”. But it seems people are either unaware of those facts, or willingly ignore them." The taxi drivers trying to resus babies whilst driving is one such thing. Always thought that tge person filming should put the phone down and do the resus. That would be safer but not as good for propaganda purposes, you need a video, which is much more important for tge cause than saving a small child's life.. Its disgusting at times, Mrs x | |||
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"One of the biggest false dichotomies in the world today is the Israel–Palestine conflict. Criticising one side is treated as automatically endorsing the other. Hamas are terrorists. They commit atrocities. This can be true while also saying: Israel is committing war crimes, and there is a genocide in Palestine. A huge proportion of Palestinian deaths are caused by Hamas. It’s in their war manuals. Sacrifice your children, your loved ones and even yourself for the cause. Martyrdom and all that. They refuse to let people evacuate. They massacre those who stand up to them. Funnily enough it’s also in the manuals explaining how to make social media content based on death, and instructs on the type of things to say to maximise sympathy for the cause and raise anger against “Jews”. But it seems people are either unaware of those facts, or willingly ignore them." No credible evidence shows Hamas has killed more Palestinians than Israel. UN and humanitarian data, and major rights groups, place the vast majority of Gaza casualties from Israeli strikes, sieges and restrictions. That does not excuse Hamas. Hamas commits atrocities, uses civilians and civilian infrastructure for military purposes, and has brutal tactics that cost Palestinian lives. Independent analyses document those practices. Both are committing crimes against civilians and both must stop. But the current reality is that Israeli actions are causing far more civilian deaths right now, so urgent emphasis on stopping those killings is justified. | |||
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"One of the biggest false dichotomies in the world today is the Israel–Palestine conflict. Criticising one side is treated as automatically endorsing the other. Hamas are terrorists. They commit atrocities. This can be true while also saying: Israel is committing war crimes, and there is a genocide in Palestine. A huge proportion of Palestinian deaths are caused by Hamas. It’s in their war manuals. Sacrifice your children, your loved ones and even yourself for the cause. Martyrdom and all that. They refuse to let people evacuate. They massacre those who stand up to them. Funnily enough it’s also in the manuals explaining how to make social media content based on death, and instructs on the type of things to say to maximise sympathy for the cause and raise anger against “Jews”. But it seems people are either unaware of those facts, or willingly ignore them." Can you provide some sources for this? Or you’re coming across as a Zionist shill I’m afraid. | |||
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"One of the biggest false dichotomies in the world today is the Israel–Palestine conflict. Criticising one side is treated as automatically endorsing the other. Hamas are terrorists. They commit atrocities. This can be true while also saying: Israel is committing war crimes, and there is a genocide in Palestine. A huge proportion of Palestinian deaths are caused by Hamas. It’s in their war manuals. Sacrifice your children, your loved ones and even yourself for the cause. Martyrdom and all that. They refuse to let people evacuate. They massacre those who stand up to them. Funnily enough it’s also in the manuals explaining how to make social media content based on death, and instructs on the type of things to say to maximise sympathy for the cause and raise anger against “Jews”. But it seems people are either unaware of those facts, or willingly ignore them. No credible evidence shows Hamas has killed more Palestinians than Israel. UN and humanitarian data, and major rights groups, place the vast majority of Gaza casualties from Israeli strikes, sieges and restrictions. That does not excuse Hamas. Hamas commits atrocities, uses civilians and civilian infrastructure for military purposes, and has brutal tactics that cost Palestinian lives. Independent analyses document those practices. Both are committing crimes against civilians and both must stop. But the current reality is that Israeli actions are causing far more civilian deaths right now, so urgent emphasis on stopping those killings is justified." 100% | |||
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"What is it called then this Empire you are alluding to? Mrs x The middle east conflict. You say there is no religious divide. I say it's what we're talking about and also all the other conflicts between religions be they muslim/jew or muslim/christian or whoever" 100% this, in a lot of the Middle East is also Muslim sect / Muslim sect. All the time these religions exist they will fight over who is preaching the right way to their imaginary friend. | |||
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"What is it called then this Empire you are alluding to? Mrs x The middle east conflict. You say there is no religious divide. I say it's what we're talking about and also all the other conflicts between religions be they muslim/jew or muslim/christian or whoever" Never said there was no religious divide, there absolutely is when looking at those opposed to Israel. But the middle east is made up primarily of one religion. How do you account for the conflicts between the Muslim states. Ten times more people killed in Yemen than in Gaza, and same goes for Syria, none of which involved Jews. So yeah religios fundamentalist is a huge problem in the region, thats why I believe Hamas should be destroyed. But none of this should come as a surprise when you consider Islam as a faith was spread via conquest and their prophet was a warlord. Maybe thats the issue, Mrs x | |||
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"What is it called then this Empire you are alluding to? Mrs x The middle east conflict. You say there is no religious divide. I say it's what we're talking about and also all the other conflicts between religions be they muslim/jew or muslim/christian or whoever 100% this, in a lot of the Middle East is also Muslim sect / Muslim sect. All the time these religions exist they will fight over who is preaching the right way to their imaginary friend." You say this like it’s unique to Islam. That same arrogance and bloodshed shows up wherever religion mixes with power — it’s not faith, it’s fanaticism. | |||
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"One of the biggest false dichotomies in the world today is the Israel–Palestine conflict. Criticising one side is treated as automatically endorsing the other. Hamas are terrorists. They commit atrocities. This can be true while also saying: Israel is committing war crimes, and there is a genocide in Palestine. A huge proportion of Palestinian deaths are caused by Hamas. It’s in their war manuals. Sacrifice your children, your loved ones and even yourself for the cause. Martyrdom and all that. They refuse to let people evacuate. They massacre those who stand up to them. Funnily enough it’s also in the manuals explaining how to make social media content based on death, and instructs on the type of things to say to maximise sympathy for the cause and raise anger against “Jews”. But it seems people are either unaware of those facts, or willingly ignore them. Can you provide some sources for this? Or you’re coming across as a Zionist shill I’m afraid." Thats not nice, Mrs x | |||
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"One of the biggest false dichotomies in the world today is the Israel–Palestine conflict. Criticising one side is treated as automatically endorsing the other. Hamas are terrorists. They commit atrocities. This can be true while also saying: Israel is committing war crimes, and there is a genocide in Palestine. A huge proportion of Palestinian deaths are caused by Hamas. It’s in their war manuals. Sacrifice your children, your loved ones and even yourself for the cause. Martyrdom and all that. They refuse to let people evacuate. They massacre those who stand up to them. Funnily enough it’s also in the manuals explaining how to make social media content based on death, and instructs on the type of things to say to maximise sympathy for the cause and raise anger against “Jews”. But it seems people are either unaware of those facts, or willingly ignore them. No credible evidence shows Hamas has killed more Palestinians than Israel. UN and humanitarian data, and major rights groups, place the vast majority of Gaza casualties from Israeli strikes, sieges and restrictions. That does not excuse Hamas. Hamas commits atrocities, uses civilians and civilian infrastructure for military purposes, and has brutal tactics that cost Palestinian lives. Independent analyses document those practices. Both are committing crimes against civilians and both must stop. But the current reality is that Israeli actions are causing far more civilian deaths right now, so urgent emphasis on stopping those killings is justified." This is a wilful misinterpretation of facts. If Israel say they are going to bomb an entire district, and order civilians to evacuate, then Hamas tell people no they can’t. Then it’s listed as Israel killing them. When in reality it’s Hamas forcing “martyrdom” and forbidding people from escaping to safety. | |||
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"What is it called then this Empire you are alluding to? Mrs x The middle east conflict. You say there is no religious divide. I say it's what we're talking about and also all the other conflicts between religions be they muslim/jew or muslim/christian or whoever 100% this, in a lot of the Middle East is also Muslim sect / Muslim sect. All the time these religions exist they will fight over who is preaching the right way to their imaginary friend. You say this like it’s unique to Islam. That same arrogance and bloodshed shows up wherever religion mixes with power — it’s not faith, it’s fanaticism." What's the date, what time is it? This is momentous... WE AGREE... Mrs x | |||
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"One of the biggest false dichotomies in the world today is the Israel–Palestine conflict. Criticising one side is treated as automatically endorsing the other. Hamas are terrorists. They commit atrocities. This can be true while also saying: Israel is committing war crimes, and there is a genocide in Palestine. A huge proportion of Palestinian deaths are caused by Hamas. It’s in their war manuals. Sacrifice your children, your loved ones and even yourself for the cause. Martyrdom and all that. They refuse to let people evacuate. They massacre those who stand up to them. Funnily enough it’s also in the manuals explaining how to make social media content based on death, and instructs on the type of things to say to maximise sympathy for the cause and raise anger against “Jews”. But it seems people are either unaware of those facts, or willingly ignore them. No credible evidence shows Hamas has killed more Palestinians than Israel. UN and humanitarian data, and major rights groups, place the vast majority of Gaza casualties from Israeli strikes, sieges and restrictions. That does not excuse Hamas. Hamas commits atrocities, uses civilians and civilian infrastructure for military purposes, and has brutal tactics that cost Palestinian lives. Independent analyses document those practices. Both are committing crimes against civilians and both must stop. But the current reality is that Israeli actions are causing far more civilian deaths right now, so urgent emphasis on stopping those killings is justified. This is a wilful misinterpretation of facts. If Israel say they are going to bomb an entire district, and order civilians to evacuate, then Hamas tell people no they can’t. Then it’s listed as Israel killing them. When in reality it’s Hamas forcing “martyrdom” and forbidding people from escaping to safety." Thats the truth, Mrs x | |||
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"This is a wilful misinterpretation of facts. If Israel say they are going to bomb an entire district, and order civilians to evacuate, then Hamas tell people no they can’t. Then it’s listed as Israel killing them. When in reality it’s Hamas forcing “martyrdom” and forbidding people from escaping to safety." Oh I agree there’s a wilful misinterpretation of the facts here — just not by me. Even if Hamas discourages evacuation, it doesn’t erase Israel’s legal responsibility to avoid civilian deaths. Under international law, issuing a warning doesn’t grant a free pass to bomb densely populated areas. If you know civilians can’t realistically leave, you’re still accountable for what follows. That’s why every major human rights organisation — including Israeli ones — classifies many of these strikes as disproportionate or indiscriminate. A war crime isn’t cancelled out by someone else’s. Right now Israeli actions are killing far more civilians overall. That doesn’t excuse Hamas — it proves both sides need to be stopped. | |||
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" Right now Israeli actions are killing far more civilians overall. That doesn’t excuse Hamas — it proves both sides need to be stopped." That's not exactly proof. And if Hamas stopped, so would Israel. Unfortunately, Hamas don't want to stop. Even when they're as good as beaten and their people suffer. It's within Israel's right to eradicate a threat. | |||
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" Right now Israeli actions are killing far more civilians overall. That doesn’t excuse Hamas — it proves both sides need to be stopped. That's not exactly proof. And if Hamas stopped, so would Israel. Unfortunately, Hamas don't want to stop. Even when they're as good as beaten and their people suffer. It's within Israel's right to eradicate a threat." Your entire argument gets unravelled by something we teach toddlers. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Hamas committing atrocities doesn’t justify Israel committing them too. Both sides have blood on their hands, and pretending one cancels the other only ensures it keeps flowing. Israel has a right to self-defence — but that right has limits. When defence turns into collective punishment, it stops being justice and becomes vengeance. | |||
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"This is a wilful misinterpretation of facts. If Israel say they are going to bomb an entire district, and order civilians to evacuate, then Hamas tell people no they can’t. Then it’s listed as Israel killing them. When in reality it’s Hamas forcing “martyrdom” and forbidding people from escaping to safety. Oh I agree there’s a wilful misinterpretation of the facts here — just not by me. Even if Hamas discourages evacuation, it doesn’t erase Israel’s legal responsibility to avoid civilian deaths. Under international law, issuing a warning doesn’t grant a free pass to bomb densely populated areas. If you know civilians can’t realistically leave, you’re still accountable for what follows. That’s why every major human rights organisation — including Israeli ones — classifies many of these strikes as disproportionate or indiscriminate. A war crime isn’t cancelled out by someone else’s. Right now Israeli actions are killing far more civilians overall. That doesn’t excuse Hamas — it proves both sides need to be stopped." The number of casualties needs to be assessed and determined if its acceptable when looking at a military objective. The numbers seem horrible and they are but Urban warfare always has the greatest number of civilians which is not surprising considering they live there. So without knowing what Israels military objectives are how can you determine if it was or wasn't proportionate? I can see why you would object, its not nice thinking about innocent lives being lost. You are thinking this way because you are inherently kind. However the other issue here is the role of some of the civilians killed. When do you stop being a civilian? When you actively fire a weapon at the enemy? When you provide logistics support, lookout etc? When you harbour non civilians? The numbers of, what Hamas are saying, civilians killed is far greater because of these demands Hamas has placed on its people. They expected to do what they did on Oct 7th, kill Jews, take prisoners to exchange for many times more of their terrorists to be released by Israel and they expected to hide behind their population and for Iarael to have to back down. They gambled the lives of their population and got it wrong. I'd love to see peace in the region but its never going to happen whilst Hamas and fundamentalist Islamic terrorism remains, Mrs x | |||
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"This is a wilful misinterpretation of facts. If Israel say they are going to bomb an entire district, and order civilians to evacuate, then Hamas tell people no they can’t. Then it’s listed as Israel killing them. When in reality it’s Hamas forcing “martyrdom” and forbidding people from escaping to safety. Oh I agree there’s a wilful misinterpretation of the facts here — just not by me. Even if Hamas discourages evacuation, it doesn’t erase Israel’s legal responsibility to avoid civilian deaths. Under international law, issuing a warning doesn’t grant a free pass to bomb densely populated areas. If you know civilians can’t realistically leave, you’re still accountable for what follows. That’s why every major human rights organisation — including Israeli ones — classifies many of these strikes as disproportionate or indiscriminate. A war crime isn’t cancelled out by someone else’s. Right now Israeli actions are killing far more civilians overall. That doesn’t excuse Hamas — it proves both sides need to be stopped." Why can't they leave? Mrs x | |||
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" Two wrongs don’t make a right. " More evidence? Yes. It demonstrates that you are trying to apply kindergarten-level debate to geopolitics and state existential threats. | |||
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" Two wrongs don’t make a right. More evidence? Yes. It demonstrates that you are trying to apply kindergarten-level debate to geopolitics and state existential threats." Pattern hmmm, Mrs x | |||
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" Two wrongs don’t make a right. More evidence? Yes. It demonstrates that you are trying to apply kindergarten-level debate to geopolitics and state existential threats." Or it proves that to some, certain lives are less valuable than others. Evil does not excuse evil. Calling basic morality “kindergarten-level” doesn’t make it wrong. It makes it tragic that we have to remind adults of it. The scale might be geopolitical, but the principle is the same — if your ethics collapse the moment they’re inconvenient, they were never ethics at all. | |||
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"What is it called then this Empire you are alluding to? Mrs x The middle east conflict. You say there is no religious divide. I say it's what we're talking about and also all the other conflicts between religions be they muslim/jew or muslim/christian or whoever 100% this, in a lot of the Middle East is also Muslim sect / Muslim sect. All the time these religions exist they will fight over who is preaching the right way to their imaginary friend. You say this like it’s unique to Islam. That same arrogance and bloodshed shows up wherever religion mixes with power — it’s not faith, it’s fanaticism." Not at all all religions are as bad as each other. | |||
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"What is it called then this Empire you are alluding to? Mrs x The middle east conflict. You say there is no religious divide. I say it's what we're talking about and also all the other conflicts between religions be they muslim/jew or muslim/christian or whoeverNever said there was no religious divide, there absolutely is when looking at those opposed to Israel. But the middle east is made up primarily of one religion. How do you account for the conflicts between the Muslim states. Ten times more people killed in Yemen than in Gaza, and same goes for Syria, none of which involved Jews. So yeah religios fundamentalist is a huge problem in the region, thats why I believe Hamas should be destroyed. But none of this should come as a surprise when you consider Islam as a faith was spread via conquest and their prophet was a warlord. Maybe thats the issue, Mrs x" ********** Religious divides occur within religions as another poster said. There will be sects and breakaway churches. We have multiple versions of the protestant church here that have their own interpretation of scripture. Same goes for muslim and every other religion. It is not simple enough to pigeon hole. It very much is fanatical, and warlords who use religion to rule and they rule with 'divide and conquer'. Underneath our very civilised civilisation we're still made up of the old world genetic instincts to survive and conquer. Where there is a hierarchy there will be those who gain by force and retain by force. There will always be corruption. It's human nature without the restraints and restrictions we choose to place on ourselves to live in community. Call them laws, call them morals. We have to choose to live our lives within those boundaries. And the people involved in these atrocities take advantage of the fact we do that and they choose to live outside of those boundaries and they will continue to. They will always only answer to themselves and their own agenda. Force and war will never eradicate this section of humanity. It will always rise again in another guise, in another country, under another flag and always in the pursuit of personal gain. | |||
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"Not at all all religions are as bad as each other. " That implies that to you there’s an acceptable level of heinous activity a religion can commit — that some can get away with more because others are worse. I’ll agree that the most extreme cases should be tackled first — triage makes sense. But ignoring the others isn’t strategy, it’s selective outrage. The question shouldn’t be which religion is worst. The question should be: are they doing things that need to be stopped? Faith isn’t the danger. Excusing cruelty because it wears a familiar label is. | |||
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"Not at all all religions are as bad as each other. That implies that to you there’s an acceptable level of heinous activity a religion can commit — that some can get away with more because others are worse. I’ll agree that the most extreme cases should be tackled first — triage makes sense. But ignoring the others isn’t strategy, it’s selective outrage. The question shouldn’t be which religion is worst. The question should be: are they doing things that need to be stopped? Faith isn’t the danger. Excusing cruelty because it wears a familiar label is." You might want to re read what I said, granted I missed a full stop. “Not at all. All religions are as bad as each other” | |||
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" Two wrongs don’t make a right. More evidence? Yes. It demonstrates that you are trying to apply kindergarten-level debate to geopolitics and state existential threats. Or it proves that to some, certain lives are less valuable than others. Evil does not excuse evil. Calling basic morality “kindergarten-level” doesn’t make it wrong. It makes it tragic that we have to remind adults of it. The scale might be geopolitical, but the principle is the same — if your ethics collapse the moment they’re inconvenient, they were never ethics at all." You are .missing the point I think. I believe the other poster is questioning your absolute adherence to evidentiary proof on other threads, nothing else matters to you but know its all about feelings and ethics on this thread. It just lacks consistency. I'm not saying you are wrong and thats ots a terrible situation. I know the other poster feels the same way too from their multitude of posts condemning the violence and deaths. But you are quick to blame Israel for the numbers here. So where is your proof for this? How do you know its not proportionate? And have you got evidence of Israels military objectives to hand and if so could you share this evidence with us so we can see what you are basing your findings on? Can you do that? Please... Mrs x | |||
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"What is it called then this Empire you are alluding to? Mrs x The middle east conflict. You say there is no religious divide. I say it's what we're talking about and also all the other conflicts between religions be they muslim/jew or muslim/christian or whoeverNever said there was no religious divide, there absolutely is when looking at those opposed to Israel. But the middle east is made up primarily of one religion. How do you account for the conflicts between the Muslim states. Ten times more people killed in Yemen than in Gaza, and same goes for Syria, none of which involved Jews. So yeah religios fundamentalist is a huge problem in the region, thats why I believe Hamas should be destroyed. But none of this should come as a surprise when you consider Islam as a faith was spread via conquest and their prophet was a warlord. Maybe thats the issue, Mrs x ********** Religious divides occur within religions as another poster said. There will be sects and breakaway churches. We have multiple versions of the protestant church here that have their own interpretation of scripture. Same goes for muslim and every other religion. It is not simple enough to pigeon hole. It very much is fanatical, and warlords who use religion to rule and they rule with 'divide and conquer'. Underneath our very civilised civilisation we're still made up of the old world genetic instincts to survive and conquer. Where there is a hierarchy there will be those who gain by force and retain by force. There will always be corruption. It's human nature without the restraints and restrictions we choose to place on ourselves to live in community. Call them laws, call them morals. We have to choose to live our lives within those boundaries. And the people involved in these atrocities take advantage of the fact we do that and they choose to live outside of those boundaries and they will continue to. They will always only answer to themselves and their own agenda. Force and war will never eradicate this section of humanity. It will always rise again in another guise, in another country, under another flag and always in the pursuit of personal gain." What you are describing are the worst traits of humanity, not ideology or political beliefs. I agree that you cannot necessarily eradicate these traits in man but as a species we do have other more positive traits. What I am talking about is the eradication of evil ideologies, geopolitics and the like. These can be destroyed. We should challenge these at every instance and not simply 'allow' them to exist because other evils will emerge to replace them. Mrs x | |||
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"They have a ceasefire thanks to Trump Now it’s up to them " Its not going to last Hamas will not surrender their arms. "There are credible statements from senior officials of Hamas confirming that the group is willing to relinquish the governance of Gaza but not its arms. In August 2024, Basem Naim, a politburo member of Hamas, told NPR that Hamas... “is willing to concede on governing the Gaza Strip after the war, but will not lay down arms against Israel.” In April 2025, a Hamas official said the group is... “open to a long-term truce … but not willing to disarm” while Israeli occupation, in their view, persists. According to a Guardian report (October 2025), Hamas remains the “de-facto authority” in Gaza and while it may cede certain civil control, it intends to keep light arms to maintain power and internal security. This stance is significant because any cease-fire or post-conflict deal between Israel and Palestinian authorities often lists disarmament of Hamas as a key condition. On the governance side, the offer by Hamas to hand over administrative power but retain military capabilities complicates peace negotiations and broader post-war arrangements. The distinction also shows the group sees armed resistance as central to its identity and political leverage, even if it is willing to distance itself from day-to-day governance. Its not going to work whilst Hamas are still around, Mrs x | |||
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"What you are describing are the worst traits of humanity, not ideology or political beliefs. I agree that you cannot necessarily eradicate these traits in man but as a species we do have other more positive traits. What I am talking about is the eradication of evil ideologies, geopolitics and the like. These can be destroyed. We should challenge these at every instance and not simply 'allow' them to exist because other evils will emerge to replace them. Mrs x" They are co-dependant. And the second would not exist if it weren't for the first. You cannot separate them. | |||
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"What you are describing are the worst traits of humanity, not ideology or political beliefs. I agree that you cannot necessarily eradicate these traits in man but as a species we do have other more positive traits. What I am talking about is the eradication of evil ideologies, geopolitics and the like. These can be destroyed. We should challenge these at every instance and not simply 'allow' them to exist because other evils will emerge to replace them. Mrs x They are co-dependant. And the second would not exist if it weren't for the first. You cannot separate them." So we just let evil persist then? Mrs x | |||
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"They have a ceasefire thanks to Trump Now it’s up to them Its not going to last Hamas will not surrender their arms. "There are credible statements from senior officials of Hamas confirming that the group is willing to relinquish the governance of Gaza but not its arms. In August 2024, Basem Naim, a politburo member of Hamas, told NPR that Hamas... “is willing to concede on governing the Gaza Strip after the war, but will not lay down arms against Israel.” In April 2025, a Hamas official said the group is... “open to a long-term truce … but not willing to disarm” while Israeli occupation, in their view, persists. According to a Guardian report (October 2025), Hamas remains the “de-facto authority” in Gaza and while it may cede certain civil control, it intends to keep light arms to maintain power and internal security. This stance is significant because any cease-fire or post-conflict deal between Israel and Palestinian authorities often lists disarmament of Hamas as a key condition. On the governance side, the offer by Hamas to hand over administrative power but retain military capabilities complicates peace negotiations and broader post-war arrangements. The distinction also shows the group sees armed resistance as central to its identity and political leverage, even if it is willing to distance itself from day-to-day governance. Its not going to work whilst Hamas are still around, Mrs x " I’m no fan of Hamas, but perhaps you can comment on why they should lay down arms as you mention? As somebody mentioned. The Israelis are shooting at fish in a bowl and then complaining when they get splashed. To somehow argue that a mosquito like Hamas is an actual threat to the state of Israel beggars belief. But I can tell by your rhetoric, you’re not going to listen to reason. | |||
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" Two wrongs don’t make a right. More evidence? Yes. It demonstrates that you are trying to apply kindergarten-level debate to geopolitics and state existential threats. Or it proves that to some, certain lives are less valuable than others. Evil does not excuse evil. Calling basic morality “kindergarten-level” doesn’t make it wrong. It makes it tragic that we have to remind adults of it. The scale might be geopolitical, but the principle is the same — if your ethics collapse the moment they’re inconvenient, they were never ethics at all. You are .missing the point I think. I believe the other poster is questioning your absolute adherence to evidentiary proof on other threads, nothing else matters to you but know its all about feelings and ethics on this thread. It just lacks consistency. I'm not saying you are wrong and thats ots a terrible situation. I know the other poster feels the same way too from their multitude of posts condemning the violence and deaths. But you are quick to blame Israel for the numbers here. So where is your proof for this? How do you know its not proportionate? And have you got evidence of Israels military objectives to hand and if so could you share this evidence with us so we can see what you are basing your findings on? Can you do that? Please... Mrs x" I'm only asking because you started a thread about Facts v Feelings. You strong opinions about facts being more important than feelings in an argument were expressed repeatedly by you throughout the thread. Here's a quote, of yours, from your OP on that thread... «...asking for evidence isn’t pedantry. It’s respect - for the reader, for the argument, and for reality itself." So have you got any of the evidence I've asked you for? Anything? Mrs x | |||
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"They have a ceasefire thanks to Trump Now it’s up to them Its not going to last Hamas will not surrender their arms. "There are credible statements from senior officials of Hamas confirming that the group is willing to relinquish the governance of Gaza but not its arms. In August 2024, Basem Naim, a politburo member of Hamas, told NPR that Hamas... “is willing to concede on governing the Gaza Strip after the war, but will not lay down arms against Israel.” In April 2025, a Hamas official said the group is... “open to a long-term truce … but not willing to disarm” while Israeli occupation, in their view, persists. According to a Guardian report (October 2025), Hamas remains the “de-facto authority” in Gaza and while it may cede certain civil control, it intends to keep light arms to maintain power and internal security. This stance is significant because any cease-fire or post-conflict deal between Israel and Palestinian authorities often lists disarmament of Hamas as a key condition. On the governance side, the offer by Hamas to hand over administrative power but retain military capabilities complicates peace negotiations and broader post-war arrangements. The distinction also shows the group sees armed resistance as central to its identity and political leverage, even if it is willing to distance itself from day-to-day governance. Its not going to work whilst Hamas are still around, Mrs x I’m no fan of Hamas, but perhaps you can comment on why they should lay down arms as you mention? As somebody mentioned. The Israelis are shooting at fish in a bowl and then complaining when they get splashed. To somehow argue that a mosquito like Hamas is an actual threat to the state of Israel beggars belief. But I can tell by your rhetoric, you’re not going to listen to reason." Firstly Hamas are recognised as a terrorist organisation. Secondly, why do the need arms if they are not running Gaza, surely the body that takes over will provide protection of it own citizens. By keeping their weapons Hamas are an unsanctioned militia within the state of Gaza. Would you like groups of armed men wandering around the streets of the UK. Finally your mosquito illustration made me laugh. Mosquitos have killed more humans than any other animal alive today by a huge margin, so yes both them and Hamas need swatting, Mrs x | |||
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"What you are describing are the worst traits of humanity, not ideology or political beliefs. I agree that you cannot necessarily eradicate these traits in man but as a species we do have other more positive traits. What I am talking about is the eradication of evil ideologies, geopolitics and the like. These can be destroyed. We should challenge these at every instance and not simply 'allow' them to exist because other evils will emerge to replace them. Mrs x They are co-dependant. And the second would not exist if it weren't for the first. You cannot separate them.So we just let evil persist then? Mrs x" No 🤦🏼♀️ that's not the point I made. | |||
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"They have a ceasefire thanks to Trump Now it’s up to them Its not going to last Hamas will not surrender their arms. "There are credible statements from senior officials of Hamas confirming that the group is willing to relinquish the governance of Gaza but not its arms. In August 2024, Basem Naim, a politburo member of Hamas, told NPR that Hamas... “is willing to concede on governing the Gaza Strip after the war, but will not lay down arms against Israel.” In April 2025, a Hamas official said the group is... “open to a long-term truce … but not willing to disarm” while Israeli occupation, in their view, persists. According to a Guardian report (October 2025), Hamas remains the “de-facto authority” in Gaza and while it may cede certain civil control, it intends to keep light arms to maintain power and internal security. This stance is significant because any cease-fire or post-conflict deal between Israel and Palestinian authorities often lists disarmament of Hamas as a key condition. On the governance side, the offer by Hamas to hand over administrative power but retain military capabilities complicates peace negotiations and broader post-war arrangements. The distinction also shows the group sees armed resistance as central to its identity and political leverage, even if it is willing to distance itself from day-to-day governance. Its not going to work whilst Hamas are still around, Mrs x I’m no fan of Hamas, but perhaps you can comment on why they should lay down arms as you mention? As somebody mentioned. The Israelis are shooting at fish in a bowl and then complaining when they get splashed. To somehow argue that a mosquito like Hamas is an actual threat to the state of Israel beggars belief. But I can tell by your rhetoric, you’re not going to listen to reason.Firstly Hamas are recognised as a terrorist organisation. Secondly, why do the need arms if they are not running Gaza, surely the body that takes over will provide protection of it own citizens. By keeping their weapons Hamas are an unsanctioned militia within the state of Gaza. Would you like groups of armed men wandering around the streets of the UK. Finally your mosquito illustration made me laugh. Mosquitos have killed more humans than any other animal alive today by a huge margin, so yes both them and Hamas need swatting, Mrs x" And the ICC have served arrest warrants for Netanyahu and Gallant, so what’s your point? We can both hate Hamas, but they are the democratically elected party in Palestine. For Israel and the global north to use that as an excuse to take part in a genocide is actually no excuse. | |||
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"They have a ceasefire thanks to Trump Now it’s up to them Its not going to last Hamas will not surrender their arms. " Then they’ll get another hammering, fully endorsed by Trump Best they focus their attention on rebuilding their state | |||
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"They have a ceasefire thanks to Trump Now it’s up to them Its not going to last Hamas will not surrender their arms. "There are credible statements from senior officials of Hamas confirming that the group is willing to relinquish the governance of Gaza but not its arms. In August 2024, Basem Naim, a politburo member of Hamas, told NPR that Hamas... “is willing to concede on governing the Gaza Strip after the war, but will not lay down arms against Israel.” In April 2025, a Hamas official said the group is... “open to a long-term truce … but not willing to disarm” while Israeli occupation, in their view, persists. According to a Guardian report (October 2025), Hamas remains the “de-facto authority” in Gaza and while it may cede certain civil control, it intends to keep light arms to maintain power and internal security. This stance is significant because any cease-fire or post-conflict deal between Israel and Palestinian authorities often lists disarmament of Hamas as a key condition. On the governance side, the offer by Hamas to hand over administrative power but retain military capabilities complicates peace negotiations and broader post-war arrangements. The distinction also shows the group sees armed resistance as central to its identity and political leverage, even if it is willing to distance itself from day-to-day governance. Its not going to work whilst Hamas are still around, Mrs x I’m no fan of Hamas, but perhaps you can comment on why they should lay down arms as you mention? As somebody mentioned. The Israelis are shooting at fish in a bowl and then complaining when they get splashed. To somehow argue that a mosquito like Hamas is an actual threat to the state of Israel beggars belief. But I can tell by your rhetoric, you’re not going to listen to reason." I can't take anything you say seriously after this comment "To somehow argue that a mosquito like Hamas is an actual threat to the state of Israel beggars belief". You do remember October 7th?  | |||
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"What you are describing are the worst traits of humanity, not ideology or political beliefs. I agree that you cannot necessarily eradicate these traits in man but as a species we do have other more positive traits. What I am talking about is the eradication of evil ideologies, geopolitics and the like. These can be destroyed. We should challenge these at every instance and not simply 'allow' them to exist because other evils will emerge to replace them. Mrs x They are co-dependant. And the second would not exist if it weren't for the first. You cannot separate them.So we just let evil persist then? Mrs x No 🤦🏼♀️ that's not the point I made." Sorry I must be having a blonde moment, Mrs x | |||
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"I do remember October 7th. Let’s fog with that date then, and not the 70 years of brutal occupation by the Israelis before that. The murders Hamas inflicted on October the 7th were a despicable act, but does that justify the death of over 71,000 Palestinians since then? Don’t be a sucker " Or the attacks suffered by Jews in the 1920's let's say but you know they weren't the only incidents were they were attacked. What about The War of Independence when Israel was attacked by 5 Arab states. Or the Suez Crisis, 6 Day War, Yom Kippur, The constant threat of being attacked by Arabs who were not even Palestinian, is that what you mean about the last 70 years. How many rockets and bombs, from other countries does one country deserve? What about Hezbollah attacking on the 8th Oct to show support for Hamas was that ok? And let's not forget the Houthis in Yemen. Israel gave Gaza back in 2005, you do know this. Mrs x | |||
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"I do remember October 7th. Let’s fog with that date then, and not the 70 years of brutal occupation by the Israelis before that. The murders Hamas inflicted on October the 7th were a despicable act, but does that justify the death of over 71,000 Palestinians since then? Don’t be a sucker " And did that act of terror warrant your comment: "To somehow argue that a mosquito like Hamas is an actual threat to the state of Israel beggars belief". You seem to be a Hamas apologist but are uncertain how to communicate it effectively. | |||
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"I do remember October 7th. Let’s fog with that date then, and not the 70 years of brutal occupation by the Israelis before that. The murders Hamas inflicted on October the 7th were a despicable act, but does that justify the death of over 71,000 Palestinians since then? Don’t be a sucker And did that act of terror warrant your comment: "To somehow argue that a mosquito like Hamas is an actual threat to the state of Israel beggars belief". You seem to be a Hamas apologist but are uncertain how to communicate it effectively. " That’s really quite a pathetic comment. It’s a shame it’s come to handbags when you can’t argue your point effectively. | |||
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"I do remember October 7th. Let’s fog with that date then, and not the 70 years of brutal occupation by the Israelis before that. The murders Hamas inflicted on October the 7th were a despicable act, but does that justify the death of over 71,000 Palestinians since then? Don’t be a sucker Or the attacks suffered by Jews in the 1920's let's say but you know they weren't the only incidents were they were attacked. What about The War of Independence when Israel was attacked by 5 Arab states. Or the Suez Crisis, 6 Day War, Yom Kippur, The constant threat of being attacked by Arabs who were not even Palestinian, is that what you mean about the last 70 years. How many rockets and bombs, from other countries does one country deserve? What about Hezbollah attacking on the 8th Oct to show support for Hamas was that ok? And let's not forget the Houthis in Yemen. Israel gave Gaza back in 2005, you do know this. Mrs x" To challenge your hazy recollection of the facts is simply not wipers the effort. But I’ll pick one. Did you ever think that it could be a rogue state like Israel that attacks these countries first and then plays the victim card when some do quite rightly retaliate? Palestine, Lebanon, Qatar, Iraq, Iran, Tunisia, I could go on | |||
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"I do remember October 7th. Let’s fog with that date then, and not the 70 years of brutal occupation by the Israelis before that. The murders Hamas inflicted on October the 7th were a despicable act, but does that justify the death of over 71,000 Palestinians since then? Don’t be a sucker And did that act of terror warrant your comment: "To somehow argue that a mosquito like Hamas is an actual threat to the state of Israel beggars belief". You seem to be a Hamas apologist but are uncertain how to communicate it effectively. That’s really quite a pathetic comment. It’s a shame it’s come to handbags when you can’t argue your point effectively." Honestly, it reads to me like projection from an Israel apologist. You’ve basically repeated what I’ve said all along — that both Hamas and Israel are committing atrocities, and neither excuses the other. Calling for accountability on both sides isn’t apologism, it’s consistency. If the only outrage that counts is selective outrage, then it’s not about justice — it’s about allegiance. | |||
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"I do remember October 7th. Let’s fog with that date then, and not the 70 years of brutal occupation by the Israelis before that. The murders Hamas inflicted on October the 7th were a despicable act, but does that justify the death of over 71,000 Palestinians since then? Don’t be a sucker And did that act of terror warrant your comment: "To somehow argue that a mosquito like Hamas is an actual threat to the state of Israel beggars belief". You seem to be a Hamas apologist but are uncertain how to communicate it effectively. That’s really quite a pathetic comment. It’s a shame it’s come to handbags when you can’t argue your point effectively." I have argued it effectively to highlight your sensualist approach to quoting numbers of innocents dying as people read the thread, and an awfully worded defence of Hamas who you claim were no threat to Israel. If you have an argument it is getting lost in the above. | |||
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"I do remember October 7th. Let’s fog with that date then, and not the 70 years of brutal occupation by the Israelis before that. The murders Hamas inflicted on October the 7th were a despicable act, but does that justify the death of over 71,000 Palestinians since then? Don’t be a sucker Or the attacks suffered by Jews in the 1920's let's say but you know they weren't the only incidents were they were attacked. What about The War of Independence when Israel was attacked by 5 Arab states. Or the Suez Crisis, 6 Day War, Yom Kippur, The constant threat of being attacked by Arabs who were not even Palestinian, is that what you mean about the last 70 years. How many rockets and bombs, from other countries does one country deserve? What about Hezbollah attacking on the 8th Oct to show support for Hamas was that ok? And let's not forget the Houthis in Yemen. Israel gave Gaza back in 2005, you do know this. Mrs x To challenge your hazy recollection of the facts is simply not wipers the effort. But I’ll pick one. Did you ever think that it could be a rogue state like Israel that attacks these countries first and then plays the victim card when some do quite rightly retaliate? Palestine, Lebanon, Qatar, Iraq, Iran, Tunisia, I could go on" Go on, I'll humour you, when did they attack first, other than the airstrike that was necessary during the 6 Day War due to Egypts mass mobilisation on its borders? Mrs x | |||
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"I do remember October 7th. Let’s fog with that date then, and not the 70 years of brutal occupation by the Israelis before that. The murders Hamas inflicted on October the 7th were a despicable act, but does that justify the death of over 71,000 Palestinians since then? Don’t be a sucker Or the attacks suffered by Jews in the 1920's let's say but you know they weren't the only incidents were they were attacked. What about The War of Independence when Israel was attacked by 5 Arab states. Or the Suez Crisis, 6 Day War, Yom Kippur, The constant threat of being attacked by Arabs who were not even Palestinian, is that what you mean about the last 70 years. How many rockets and bombs, from other countries does one country deserve? What about Hezbollah attacking on the 8th Oct to show support for Hamas was that ok? And let's not forget the Houthis in Yemen. Israel gave Gaza back in 2005, you do know this. Mrs x To challenge your hazy recollection of the facts is simply not wipers the effort. But I’ll pick one. Did you ever think that it could be a rogue state like Israel that attacks these countries first and then plays the victim card when some do quite rightly retaliate? Palestine, Lebanon, Qatar, Iraq, Iran, Tunisia, I could go onGo on, I'll humour you, when did they attack first, other than the airstrike that was necessary during the 6 Day War due to Egypts mass mobilisation on its borders? Mrs x" You not bothering anymore, Mrs x | |||
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"I do remember October 7th. Let’s fog with that date then, and not the 70 years of brutal occupation by the Israelis before that. The murders Hamas inflicted on October the 7th were a despicable act, but does that justify the death of over 71,000 Palestinians since then? Don’t be a sucker And did that act of terror warrant your comment: "To somehow argue that a mosquito like Hamas is an actual threat to the state of Israel beggars belief". You seem to be a Hamas apologist but are uncertain how to communicate it effectively. That’s really quite a pathetic comment. It’s a shame it’s come to handbags when you can’t argue your point effectively. I have argued it effectively to highlight your sensualist approach to quoting numbers of innocents dying as people read the thread, and an awfully worded defence of Hamas who you claim were no threat to Israel. If you have an argument it is getting lost in the above. " Sensualist?! I think you’ve confused topics. | |||
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"I do remember October 7th. Let’s fog with that date then, and not the 70 years of brutal occupation by the Israelis before that. The murders Hamas inflicted on October the 7th were a despicable act, but does that justify the death of over 71,000 Palestinians since then? Don’t be a sucker And did that act of terror warrant your comment: "To somehow argue that a mosquito like Hamas is an actual threat to the state of Israel beggars belief". You seem to be a Hamas apologist but are uncertain how to communicate it effectively. That’s really quite a pathetic comment. It’s a shame it’s come to handbags when you can’t argue your point effectively. I have argued it effectively to highlight your sensualist approach to quoting numbers of innocents dying as people read the thread, and an awfully worded defence of Hamas who you claim were no threat to Israel. If you have an argument it is getting lost in the above. Sensualist?! I think you’ve confused topics. " So instead of addressing the post you'd rather highlight a spelling mistake that was obviously predictive text generated. Why the deflection? Mrs x | |||
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"I do remember October 7th. Let’s fog with that date then, and not the 70 years of brutal occupation by the Israelis before that. The murders Hamas inflicted on October the 7th were a despicable act, but does that justify the death of over 71,000 Palestinians since then? Don’t be a sucker And did that act of terror warrant your comment: "To somehow argue that a mosquito like Hamas is an actual threat to the state of Israel beggars belief". You seem to be a Hamas apologist but are uncertain how to communicate it effectively. That’s really quite a pathetic comment. It’s a shame it’s come to handbags when you can’t argue your point effectively. Honestly, it reads to me like projection from an Israel apologist. You’ve basically repeated what I’ve said all along — that both Hamas and Israel are committing atrocities, and neither excuses the other. Calling for accountability on both sides isn’t apologism, it’s consistency. If the only outrage that counts is selective outrage, then it’s not about justice — it’s about allegiance." I’m not sure I’m reading this right, but basically, no. That’s not it at all. After making some really valid points, you seem to have slipped into feeling obliged to show equality. The Nazis portrayed themselves as victims to justify oppression and genocide. Even if you don’t prescribe to that, the atrocities Hamas (and yes I agree they were) do not justify the disproportionate force the Israeli government has used on the Palestinians. I’ll make this my last post, you can crack on. Oh and a big FREE PALESTINE from me  | |||
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"I do remember October 7th. Let’s fog with that date then, and not the 70 years of brutal occupation by the Israelis before that. The murders Hamas inflicted on October the 7th were a despicable act, but does that justify the death of over 71,000 Palestinians since then? Don’t be a sucker And did that act of terror warrant your comment: "To somehow argue that a mosquito like Hamas is an actual threat to the state of Israel beggars belief". You seem to be a Hamas apologist but are uncertain how to communicate it effectively. That’s really quite a pathetic comment. It’s a shame it’s come to handbags when you can’t argue your point effectively. Honestly, it reads to me like projection from an Israel apologist. You’ve basically repeated what I’ve said all along — that both Hamas and Israel are committing atrocities, and neither excuses the other. Calling for accountability on both sides isn’t apologism, it’s consistency. If the only outrage that counts is selective outrage, then it’s not about justice — it’s about allegiance. I’m not sure I’m reading this right, but basically, no. That’s not it at all. After making some really valid points, you seem to have slipped into feeling obliged to show equality. The Nazis portrayed themselves as victims to justify oppression and genocide. Even if you don’t prescribe to that, the atrocities Hamas (and yes I agree they were) do not justify the disproportionate force the Israeli government has used on the Palestinians. I’ll make this my last post, you can crack on. Oh and a big FREE PALESTINE from me "Palestinians are free, they live peacefully in Israel with the Jews, Mrs x | |||
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"I’m not sure I’m reading this right, but basically, no. That’s not it at all. After making some really valid points, you seem to have slipped into feeling obliged to show equality. The Nazis portrayed themselves as victims to justify oppression and genocide. Even if you don’t prescribe to that, the atrocities Hamas (and yes I agree they were) do not justify the disproportionate force the Israeli government has used on the Palestinians. I’ll make this my last post, you can crack on. Oh and a big FREE PALESTINE from me "I think you’ve misunderstood me. I don’t believe things are equal at all. Hamas is a terrorist organisation — their actions are indefensible. But Israel is a state with an army, air force, and global backing. When it commits atrocities, the scale and responsibility are completely different. That’s not false balance, it’s proportionality. Acknowledging both doesn’t mean treating them as the same. It means refusing to excuse one evil because another exists. And yes FREE PALESTINE | |||
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"I do remember October 7th. Let’s fog with that date then, and not the 70 years of brutal occupation by the Israelis before that. The murders Hamas inflicted on October the 7th were a despicable act, but does that justify the death of over 71,000 Palestinians since then? Don’t be a sucker And did that act of terror warrant your comment: "To somehow argue that a mosquito like Hamas is an actual threat to the state of Israel beggars belief". You seem to be a Hamas apologist but are uncertain how to communicate it effectively. That’s really quite a pathetic comment. It’s a shame it’s come to handbags when you can’t argue your point effectively. Honestly, it reads to me like projection from an Israel apologist. You’ve basically repeated what I’ve said all along — that both Hamas and Israel are committing atrocities, and neither excuses the other. Calling for accountability on both sides isn’t apologism, it’s consistency. If the only outrage that counts is selective outrage, then it’s not about justice — it’s about allegiance. I’m not sure I’m reading this right, but basically, no. That’s not it at all. After making some really valid points, you seem to have slipped into feeling obliged to show equality. The Nazis portrayed themselves as victims to justify oppression and genocide. Even if you don’t prescribe to that, the atrocities Hamas (and yes I agree they were) do not justify the disproportionate force the Israeli government has used on the Palestinians. I’ll make this my last post, you can crack on. Oh and a big FREE PALESTINE from me "Picks up ball and goes home... crying haha, Mrs x | |||
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"I’m not sure I’m reading this right, but basically, no. That’s not it at all. After making some really valid points, you seem to have slipped into feeling obliged to show equality. The Nazis portrayed themselves as victims to justify oppression and genocide. Even if you don’t prescribe to that, the atrocities Hamas (and yes I agree they were) do not justify the disproportionate force the Israeli government has used on the Palestinians. I’ll make this my last post, you can crack on. Oh and a big FREE PALESTINE from me
I think you’ve misunderstood me. I don’t believe things are equal at all.
Hamas is a terrorist organisation — their actions are indefensible. But Israel is a state with an army, air force, and global backing. When it commits atrocities, the scale and responsibility are completely different. That’s not false balance, it’s proportionality.
Acknowledging both doesn’t mean treating them as the same. It means refusing to excuse one evil because another exists.
And yes FREE PALESTINE"You got that evidence to prove what you are saying then? Or is evidence only linked to the other topics and this is all about your feelings, morals and ethics... no evidence? Before you start munching can we all have a slice of your cake? Mrs x Mrs x | |||
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"I’m not sure I’m reading this right, but basically, no. That’s not it at all. After making some really valid points, you seem to have slipped into feeling obliged to show equality. The Nazis portrayed themselves as victims to justify oppression and genocide. Even if you don’t prescribe to that, the atrocities Hamas (and yes I agree they were) do not justify the disproportionate force the Israeli government has used on the Palestinians. I’ll make this my last post, you can crack on. Oh and a big FREE PALESTINE from me
I think you’ve misunderstood me. I don’t believe things are equal at all.
Hamas is a terrorist organisation — their actions are indefensible. But Israel is a state with an army, air force, and global backing. When it commits atrocities, the scale and responsibility are completely different. That’s not false balance, it’s proportionality.
Acknowledging both doesn’t mean treating them as the same. It means refusing to excuse one evil because another exists.
And yes FREE PALESTINEYou got that evidence to prove what you are saying then? Or is evidence only linked to the other topics and this is all about your feelings, morals and ethics... no evidence?
Before you start munching can we all have a slice of your cake?
Mrs x
Mrs x"Thats a no then? Mrs x | |||
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"60 million tonnes of rubble, 300,000 homes and £70bn needed for reconstruction All for 1200 murdered by Hamas; Israelis and non Jew foreign nationals from 41 countries. Who’s having a whip round " The UN and World Bank estimates I’ve seen are in the same ballpark, but the numbers keep shifting as assessments come in. Reliable sources report that more than 55,000 Palestinians have died since 7 October 2023 in Gaza Either way, it’s hard to wrap your head around the scale of destruction left in the wake of a terrorist atrocity that killed 1,200 people. | |||
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"60 million tonnes of rubble, 300,000 homes and £70bn needed for reconstruction All for 1200 murdered by Hamas; Israelis and non Jew foreign nationals from 41 countries. Who’s having a whip round The UN and World Bank estimates I’ve seen are in the same ballpark, but the numbers keep shifting as assessments come in. Reliable sources report that more than 55,000 Palestinians have died since 7 October 2023 in Gaza Either way, it’s hard to wrap your head around the scale of destruction left in the wake of a terrorist atrocity that killed 1,200 people." So you'd be okay with not going to war if the same amount of people were killed in an attack by another state? America joined WW2 after losing just over double the numbers at Pearl Harbour and their response resulted in the killings of millions of Germans and Japanese, and their actions were seen as legitimate, Mrs x | |||
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"Can this be supported without offending others? I believe so! Can I get a free Palestine or simple Yes from anyone? Curious " But there isn't a simple yes. I'm all in favour of a Palestinian state but it has to be one that will peacefully co-exist with Israel. Not one that builds tunnels to smuggle weapons to attack Israel. Not one that constantly and indiscriminately fires rockets over the border into Israel. And certainly not one that mounts a cross border attack killing 1200 Israeli's and ki*naps hundreds more. Maybe Israel were a bit over the top with their response but you you can't say they were not provoked. Also don't forget that the anti Israel mob were out on the streets of London long before Israel fired a single shot in retaliation. Para glider backpacks anyone? So no I won't give a simple yes. Palestine and Hamas will have to earn that one by sitting down with Israel and trashing out a lasting peace deal. And the useful idiots in the west drop this "river to the sea" nonsense. Israel is going nowhere so the Palestinians are going to have to deal with it and move on. Just for a bit of balance I also think that Israel needs to stop the West Bank settlement nonsense as well. It just fuels the flames. | |||
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"Just for a bit of balance I also think that Israel needs to stop the West Bank settlement nonsense as well. It just fuels the flames." What's happening in the West Bank is more than a peripheral issue. The Israeli government outright rejects democratic rights for all Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. Istead they want the Palestinians to either disappear or accept being non-citizens under Israeli rule. They claim that the West Bank (Judea and Samaria as they call it) is sovereign Israeli territory but apart from East Jerusalem they haven't actually annexed it. The reason they haven't formally annexed it is that they want to pretend to be a democracy rather than an apartheid state. But the Knesset voted to annex in July and in another vote just a few weeks ago. The only thing that seems to be stopping this from happening is US pressure. Thinking that if only Hamas were to disappear democracy would follow is extremely naive. | |||
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"60 million tonnes of rubble, 300,000 homes and £70bn needed for reconstruction All for 1200 murdered by Hamas; Israelis and non Jew foreign nationals from 41 countries. Who’s having a whip round The UN and World Bank estimates I’ve seen are in the same ballpark, but the numbers keep shifting as assessments come in. Reliable sources report that more than 55,000 Palestinians have died since 7 October 2023 in Gaza Either way, it’s hard to wrap your head around the scale of destruction left in the wake of a terrorist atrocity that killed 1,200 people." For comparison 2996 people were killed on the 9/11 twin towers attacks Costs of War research examines the human toll of U.S. military operations and spending, for U.S. service members, veterans, military contractors, and allies; and for civilians killed and displaced. An estimated over 940,000 people were killed by direct post-9/11 war violence in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, and Pakistan between 2001-2023. Of these, more than 432,000 were civilians. The number of people wounded or ill as a result of the conflicts is far higher, as is the number of civilians who died “indirectly,” as a result of wars’ destruction of economies, healthcare systems, infrastructure and the environment. An estimated 3.6-3.8 million people died indirectly in post-9/11 war zones, bringing the total death toll to at least 4.5-4.7 million and counting. In financial terms a common estimate for the U.S. is nearly $1.8 trillion in direct costs so far, a figure projected to rise to around $2.89 trillion by 2050 when accounting for interest and long-term veterans' care. Uk audited costs £8.16bn Financial cost to rebuild Iraq's post-war reconstruction needs were estimated at $88.2 billion in early 2018, with $22 billion needed for the short term and $65 billion for the medium term, according to the Iraqi Planning Ministry and Kurdistan24. | |||
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"1.5 million Brits protested to try and prevent the Iraq war. Blair will never be forgiven." Before people point fingers at Israel, UK coalition damage in Iraq has dwarfed whats happened to Gaza. UK has paid approximately £26.4 million in reparations to Iraq. Weak western support for Ukraine has enabled the same there. | |||
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"Just for a bit of balance I also think that Israel needs to stop the West Bank settlement nonsense as well. It just fuels the flames. What's happening in the West Bank is more than a peripheral issue. The Israeli government outright rejects democratic rights for all Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. Istead they want the Palestinians to either disappear or accept being non-citizens under Israeli rule. They claim that the West Bank (Judea and Samaria as they call it) is sovereign Israeli territory but apart from East Jerusalem they haven't actually annexed it. The reason they haven't formally annexed it is that they want to pretend to be a democracy rather than an apartheid state. But the Knesset voted to annex in July and in another vote just a few weeks ago. The only thing that seems to be stopping this from happening is US pressure. Thinking that if only Hamas were to disappear democracy would follow is extremely naive. " Do you mean democracy in Gaza or Israel? Mrs x | |||
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" Thinking that if only Hamas were to disappear democracy would follow is extremely naive. Do you mean democracy in Gaza or Israel? Mrs x" Perhaps the past decades have taught us the limits of democracy, especially in the Middle East. For democracy to work, people need not be on the same page, or even the same book. But it helps if one party isn't trying to burn down the whole library. | |||
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"Do you mean democracy in Gaza or Israel? Mrs x" I was principally talking about the West Bank and Gaza but can generalize the discussion to include Israel inside the green line. The word Israel is in itself problematic because the Israeli government has not declared its boundaries, instead adopting a deliberate ambiguity. Inside the green line (the 1949 armistice border) Israel is a democracy with Arab citizens having more or less the same rights as others. But the Israeli government does not recognise the green line and has formally annexed the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem. East Jerusalem is particularly problematic and technically Israel (if we use its annexation borders) is no longer a democracy because Palestinians living in East Jerusalem do not have the right to Israeli citizenship. Another problem is that the Israeli government refuses to allow the PA to hold elections in East Jerusalem and this is one of the things that has been blocking elections for the PA - as a substantial number of Palestinians would not be able to vote. In Gaza, although there are no Israeli settlements, the entire area is still considered under Israeli occupation because the Israeli government controls the land borders, sea borders and airspace. In the West Bank (excluding East Jerusalem) the area is also occupied. Although there are technically areas A, B and C. In area A (about 18% of the West Bank) the Palestinians have a certain amount of control but they are effectively like the Bantustans in apartheid South Africa or the "Indian" reservations in North America. As time goes by the settlers and IDF are slowly choking off the Palestinian areas in the West Bank and the Israeli government has no intention of ever stopping this as far as I can see. In the wider region there are ambitions by some members of the Israeli government to take over south Lebanon and large parts of Syria and Jordan. Smotrich even gave a speech on a platfrom showing a map of Israel that included all of Jordan. The Israeli government has made it clear that it will not allow a Palestinian state to exist nor will it offer Israeli citizenship to the people of the regions it occupies. Even if the Palestinians hold elections, if they don't have a state then the elections aren't elections for leaders of a state just for leaders of glorified prison camps. This is what I mean about the Palestinians being denied democratic rights. | |||
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"I’m behind Israel. Sorry if that offends. My simplistic view is, you live in Israel, you’re Jewish and the axis of evil have stated that they want to wipe you off the face of the earth. Then a group armed and sponsored by one of these countries attacks you, then the second one launches hundreds of drones and intercontinental missiles against you. Absolutely you defend yourselves and you go in hard. No sympathy for any of the axis. Ironic isn’t it that after the current ceasefire Gazans were killing Gazans . Didn’t see any demonstrations on the streets then . " It doesn’t fit the narrative to raise the issue of Hamas slaughtering its fellow citizens, or how Hamas enforces its control over others. As for its international political aides, better known as the Red Cross and UNHCR I wouldn’t piss in their collection tins let own put my hard earned cash in them. | |||
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"The question that should be being asked is why western countries have taken refugees in when states like Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, UAE have all kept their borders shut to Palestine refugees " because those countrys know what happens when you lwt loads of Palestinians in, just loik at Lebanon was a nice place a few decades back then they let a whole load of Palestinians in and it slowly turned into the shithole they had fled | |||
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"The question that should be being asked is why western countries have taken refugees in when states like Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, UAE have all kept their borders shut to Palestine refugees " Because our political leaders are lunatics, and can’t see the potential risk to us all of inviting in known terrorists, whose only allegiance is to a sky pixie with a wish for world dominance | |||
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"The question that should be being asked is why western countries have taken refugees in when states like Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, UAE have all kept their borders shut to Palestine refugees because those countrys know what happens when you lwt loads of Palestinians in, just loik at Lebanon was a nice place a few decades back then they let a whole load of Palestinians in and it slowly turned into the shithole they had fled" | |||
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"Do you mean democracy in Gaza or Israel? Mrs x I was principally talking about the West Bank and Gaza but can generalize the discussion to include Israel inside the green line. The word Israel is in itself problematic because the Israeli government has not declared its boundaries, instead adopting a deliberate ambiguity. Inside the green line (the 1949 armistice border) Israel is a democracy with Arab citizens having more or less the same rights as others. But the Israeli government does not recognise the green line and has formally annexed the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem. East Jerusalem is particularly problematic and technically Israel (if we use its annexation borders) is no longer a democracy because Palestinians living in East Jerusalem do not have the right to Israeli citizenship. Another problem is that the Israeli government refuses to allow the PA to hold elections in East Jerusalem and this is one of the things that has been blocking elections for the PA - as a substantial number of Palestinians would not be able to vote. In Gaza, although there are no Israeli settlements, the entire area is still considered under Israeli occupation because the Israeli government controls the land borders, sea borders and airspace. In the West Bank (excluding East Jerusalem) the area is also occupied. Although there are technically areas A, B and C. In area A (about 18% of the West Bank) the Palestinians have a certain amount of control but they are effectively like the Bantustans in apartheid South Africa or the "Indian" reservations in North America. As time goes by the settlers and IDF are slowly choking off the Palestinian areas in the West Bank and the Israeli government has no intention of ever stopping this as far as I can see. In the wider region there are ambitions by some members of the Israeli government to take over south Lebanon and large parts of Syria and Jordan. Smotrich even gave a speech on a platfrom showing a map of Israel that included all of Jordan. The Israeli government has made it clear that it will not allow a Palestinian state to exist nor will it offer Israeli citizenship to the people of the regions it occupies. Even if the Palestinians hold elections, if they don't have a state then the elections aren't elections for leaders of a state just for leaders of glorified prison camps. This is what I mean about the Palestinians being denied democratic rights. " While your post raises important points about Israeli policy and the Palestinian situation, several claims merit clarification. Democracy is assessed by governance over a population, not potential borders. Within the Green Line, Israel holds regular, free, competitive elections, has an independent judiciary, free press, and civil liberties—both Jewish and Arab citizens participate. Israel has formally recognized rights and protections for its citizens regardless of ethnicity, religion, or gender. Boundary ambiguity does not invalidate democratic governance. While Israel has not formally defined all future borders, this ambiguity is a matter of international diplomacy, not of domestic democratic function. Freedom House rates Israel as “Free,” with Arab citizens voting, running for office, and serving in government. Israel distinguishes between citizens and residents: East Jerusalem Palestinians are permanent residents and have the option to apply for citizenship, this is a citizenship/legal distinction, not a blanket denial of democratic principles within Israel proper. Democracy is not defined by extending citizenship to everyone under disputed or occupied territory, particularly where international law and occupation disputes are in play. Many countries have non-citizen populations that cannot vote but do not invalidate the country’s democratic status. Including annexed territories in a democratic evaluation is legally and politically contentious, most assessments suxh as Freedom House, Economist Intelligence Unit, evaluate Israel’s democracy based on the Green Line population. The PA’s election postponements were internally driven, not solely due to Israeli restrictions. Analysts argue that Abbas feared losing to Hamas, and the Jerusalem issue was used as a convenient pretext. Responsibility for election delays is shared, not entirely imposed by Israel. Saying “Israel prevents elections” oversimplifies a complex internal political situation. Occupation is a legal status under international law, but the comparison to Bantustans is contentious. Unlike South Africa, Palestinian areas have their own governance institutions, the PA in the West Bank, Hamas in Gaza, legal systems, and varying degrees of autonomy. “Choking off” via settlements is politically debatable, although I do not necessarily agree with this, Israel maintains security zones for specific reasons, and the comparison to apartheid-era South Africa is criticized as oversimplified by international law scholars. Statements by fringe politicians like Smotrich, do not constitute official government policy or a plan for annexation. Israel’s government policy is determined by coalition agreements and cabinet decisions, not individual speeches. The annexation vote you mention was extremely narrow 25–24 and was sponsored by opposition members rather than the governing coalition; importantly, the governing party, Likud, largely did not support it. The first reading is just the initial stage in a four-reading legislative process. It does not mean the annexation is legally final. After the vote, the government stated that it is pausing further advancement of the bills for now. International law and Israel’s security considerations act as checks on unilateral annexation claims, making such expansions highly improbable. As for your point that.... "[e]ven if the Palestinians hold elections, if they don't have a state then the elections aren't elections for leaders of a state just for leaders of glorified prison camps." is simplistic again. Elections within non-sovereign entities can still be democratic. Municipal or legislative elections are valid forms of representation even without full statehood. The legitimacy of elections does not require recognition by Israel or formal statehood. The PA holds elections for its own governance, which is meaningful to its population. Mrs x | |||
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"The question that should be being asked is why western countries have taken refugees in when states like Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, UAE have all kept their borders shut to Palestine refugees " The answer is simple, look at what happened to both Egypt and Jordan when they allowed Palestinian refugees into their countries. It wasn't good, Mrs x | |||
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"Do you mean democracy in Gaza or Israel? Mrs x I was principally talking about the West Bank and Gaza but can generalize the discussion to include Israel inside the green line. The word Israel is in itself problematic because the Israeli government has not declared its boundaries, instead adopting a deliberate ambiguity. Inside the green line (the 1949 armistice border) Israel is a democracy with Arab citizens having more or less the same rights as others. But the Israeli government does not recognise the green line and has formally annexed the Golan Heights and East Jerusalem. East Jerusalem is particularly problematic and technically Israel (if we use its annexation borders) is no longer a democracy because Palestinians living in East Jerusalem do not have the right to Israeli citizenship. Another problem is that the Israeli government refuses to allow the PA to hold elections in East Jerusalem and this is one of the things that has been blocking elections for the PA - as a substantial number of Palestinians would not be able to vote. In Gaza, although there are no Israeli settlements, the entire area is still considered under Israeli occupation because the Israeli government controls the land borders, sea borders and airspace. In the West Bank (excluding East Jerusalem) the area is also occupied. Although there are technically areas A, B and C. In area A (about 18% of the West Bank) the Palestinians have a certain amount of control but they are effectively like the Bantustans in apartheid South Africa or the "Indian" reservations in North America. As time goes by the settlers and IDF are slowly choking off the Palestinian areas in the West Bank and the Israeli government has no intention of ever stopping this as far as I can see. In the wider region there are ambitions by some members of the Israeli government to take over south Lebanon and large parts of Syria and Jordan. Smotrich even gave a speech on a platfrom showing a map of Israel that included all of Jordan. The Israeli government has made it clear that it will not allow a Palestinian state to exist nor will it offer Israeli citizenship to the people of the regions it occupies. Even if the Palestinians hold elections, if they don't have a state then the elections aren't elections for leaders of a state just for leaders of glorified prison camps. This is what I mean about the Palestinians being denied democratic rights. While your post raises important points about Israeli policy and the Palestinian situation, several claims merit clarification. Democracy is assessed by governance over a population, not potential borders. Within the Green Line, Israel holds regular, free, competitive elections, has an independent judiciary, free press, and civil liberties—both Jewish and Arab citizens participate. Israel has formally recognized rights and protections for its citizens regardless of ethnicity, religion, or gender. Boundary ambiguity does not invalidate democratic governance. While Israel has not formally defined all future borders, this ambiguity is a matter of international diplomacy, not of domestic democratic function. Freedom House rates Israel as “Free,” with Arab citizens voting, running for office, and serving in government. Israel distinguishes between citizens and residents: East Jerusalem Palestinians are permanent residents and have the option to apply for citizenship, this is a citizenship/legal distinction, not a blanket denial of democratic principles within Israel proper. Democracy is not defined by extending citizenship to everyone under disputed or occupied territory, particularly where international law and occupation disputes are in play. Many countries have non-citizen populations that cannot vote but do not invalidate the country’s democratic status. Including annexed territories in a democratic evaluation is legally and politically contentious, most assessments suxh as Freedom House, Economist Intelligence Unit, evaluate Israel’s democracy based on the Green Line population. The PA’s election postponements were internally driven, not solely due to Israeli restrictions. Analysts argue that Abbas feared losing to Hamas, and the Jerusalem issue was used as a convenient pretext. Responsibility for election delays is shared, not entirely imposed by Israel. Saying “Israel prevents elections” oversimplifies a complex internal political situation. Occupation is a legal status under international law, but the comparison to Bantustans is contentious. Unlike South Africa, Palestinian areas have their own governance institutions, the PA in the West Bank, Hamas in Gaza, legal systems, and varying degrees of autonomy. “Choking off” via settlements is politically debatable, although I do not necessarily agree with this, Israel maintains security zones for specific reasons, and the comparison to apartheid-era South Africa is criticized as oversimplified by international law scholars. Statements by fringe politicians like Smotrich, do not constitute official government policy or a plan for annexation. Israel’s government policy is determined by coalition agreements and cabinet decisions, not individual speeches. The annexation vote you mention was extremely narrow 25–24 and was sponsored by opposition members rather than the governing coalition; importantly, the governing party, Likud, largely did not support it. The first reading is just the initial stage in a four-reading legislative process. It does not mean the annexation is legally final. After the vote, the government stated that it is pausing further advancement of the bills for now. International law and Israel’s security considerations act as checks on unilateral annexation claims, making such expansions highly improbable. As for your point that.... "[e]ven if the Palestinians hold elections, if they don't have a state then the elections aren't elections for leaders of a state just for leaders of glorified prison camps." is simplistic again. Elections within non-sovereign entities can still be democratic. Municipal or legislative elections are valid forms of representation even without full statehood. The legitimacy of elections does not require recognition by Israel or formal statehood. The PA holds elections for its own governance, which is meaningful to its population. Mrs x" Wowww that’s a dam impressive reply… | |||
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"Do you mean democracy in Gaza or Israel? Mrs x Palestinians living in East Jerusalem do not have the right to Israeli citizenship. The Israeli government has made it clear that it will not allow a Palestinian state to exist nor will it offer Israeli citizenship to the people of the regions it occupies. This is what I mean about the Palestinians being denied democratic rights. " Your only reference points are Wikipedia and Google. You conveniently and conveniently ignore thay the Egyptians and Jordanians want nothing to do with the Palestinians. And the Lebanese do not grant citizenship to the Palestinians because, simply put, they don't want them and their Shia politics in Lebanon. Why on earth do you suppose that any state would grant citizenship to supporters of a doctrine committed to the destruction of that very state? | |||
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"And the Lebanese do not grant citizenship to the Palestinians because, simply put, they don't want them and their Shia politics in Lebanon. " Actually, most are Sunni. The relationship is complicated and occasionally fraught. For example, most recently, Palestinians (largely) supported HTS in Syria (who are Sunni and were generally against Shi'ite and Alawite). This caused some bad blood with Hezbollah, who have no particular affection for Palestinians, other than "my enemy's enemy". | |||
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"While your post raises important points about Israeli policy and the Palestinian situation, several claims merit clarification. Democracy is assessed by governance over a population, not potential borders. Within the Green Line, Israel holds regular, free, competitive elections, has an independent judiciary, free press, and civil liberties—both Jewish and Arab citizens participate. Israel has formally recognized rights and protections for its citizens regardless of ethnicity, religion, or gender. Boundary ambiguity does not invalidate democratic governance. While Israel has not formally defined all future borders, this ambiguity is a matter of international diplomacy, not of domestic democratic function. Freedom House rates Israel as “Free,” with Arab citizens voting, running for office, and serving in government. Israel distinguishes between citizens and residents: East Jerusalem Palestinians are permanent residents and have the option to apply for citizenship, this is a citizenship/legal distinction, not a blanket denial of democratic principles within Israel proper. Democracy is not defined by extending citizenship to everyone under disputed or occupied territory, particularly where international law and occupation disputes are in play. Many countries have non-citizen populations that cannot vote but do not invalidate the country’s democratic status. Including annexed territories in a democratic evaluation is legally and politically contentious, most assessments suxh as Freedom House, Economist Intelligence Unit, evaluate Israel’s democracy based on the Green Line population." Given that I wrote "Inside the green line (the 1949 armistice border) Israel is a democracy with Arab citizens having more or less the same rights as others" much of the above is just you arguing against a strawman. However, you do illustrate that when it's convenient then Israel means the area inside the green line but when it's inconvenient then Israel does not mean the area inside the green line. East Jerusalem has been occupied for 58 years and was formally annexed by the Israeli government 45 years ago. However the UN Security Council passed UNSCR 478 which declared this annexation illegal. Most Palestinians born in East Jerusalem have residency rights and can apply for Israeli citizenship. But only a tiny proportion actually have citizenship due to a resistance against recognizing the annexation and the occupation in general and because they have to pass Hebrew language tests If you google Haaretz - Just 5 Percent of E. Jerusalem Palestinians Have Received Israeli Citizenship Since 1967 you'll find various details - such as only 34% of applicants for citizenship being granted and 14,000 people having been stripped of their residency status. "The PA’s election postponements were internally driven, not solely due to Israeli restrictions. Analysts argue that Abbas feared losing to Hamas, and the Jerusalem issue was used as a convenient pretext. Responsibility for election delays is shared, not entirely imposed by Israel. Saying “Israel prevents elections” oversimplifies a complex internal political situation." Another argument against a strawman. I wrote "Another problem is that the Israeli government refuses to allow the PA to hold elections in East Jerusalem and this is one of the things that has been blocking elections for the PA - as a substantial number of Palestinians would not be able to vote.". Note "one of the reasons" not "the reason". Then there's the two mutually exclusive arguments (not from you BTW) - one that the PA behaved undemocratically by not wanting to run against Hamas, and the other that Hamas must not be allowed to run in elections. When one argument is convenient it's adopted but when it's inconvenient it's dropped. "Occupation is a legal status under international law, but the comparison to Bantustans is contentious. Unlike South Africa, Palestinian areas have their own governance institutions, the PA in the West Bank, Hamas in Gaza, legal systems, and varying degrees of autonomy." The same was true of Bantustans. The South African government said that four of the Batustans were fully independent and that black people were citizens of these places rather than South African citizens. "“Choking off” via settlements is politically debatable, although I do not necessarily agree with this, Israel maintains security zones for specific reasons, and the comparison to apartheid-era South Africa is criticized as oversimplified by international law scholars." If you look up a map you'll see that Area A is split up into lots of isolated regions. There are hundreds of physical steel and concrete road barriers, countless checkpoints and other restrictions. It's extremely difficult for Palestinians to get planning permission for building on their own land. Settlements continue to expand and settler violence against Palestinians including the theft of property is well documented. "Statements by fringe politicians like Smotrich, do not constitute official government policy or a plan for annexation. Israel’s government policy is determined by coalition agreements and cabinet decisions, not individual speeches" Smotrich is the Israeli Minister of Finance. Your claim is as ridiculous as saying that our Chancellor of the Exchequer is a fringe politican. "The annexation vote you mention was extremely narrow 25–24 and was sponsored by opposition members rather than the governing coalition; importantly, the governing party, Likud, largely did not support it." So you don't recognise votes passed by a slim majority? "The first reading is just the initial stage in a four-reading legislative process. It does not mean the annexation is legally final. After the vote, the government stated that it is pausing further advancement of the bills for now. International law and Israel’s security considerations act as checks on unilateral annexation claims, making such expansions highly improbable." Maybe we have some ageement here. Trump said he will not allow Israel to annex the West Bank. I think most took this as a threat to withdraw US support if it happened. But besides Trump's warning I don't think an annexation is likely. Maybe Area C but even that looks virtually impossible politically. It would likely trigger wide-spread sanctions against Israel. "As for your point that.... "[e]ven if the Palestinians hold elections, if they don't have a state then the elections aren't elections for leaders of a state just for leaders of glorified prison camps." is simplistic again. Elections within non-sovereign entities can still be democratic. Municipal or legislative elections are valid forms of representation even without full statehood. The legitimacy of elections does not require recognition by Israel or formal statehood. The PA holds elections for its own governance, which is meaningful to its population. Mrs x" It's not simplisitic, "if they don't have a state then the elections aren't elections for leaders of a state" is a tautology. Also Bantustans had elections. | |||
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" Statements by fringe politicians like Smotrich, do not constitute official government policy or a plan for annexation. Israel’s government policy is determined by coalition agreements and cabinet decisions, not individual speeches Smotrich is the Israeli Minister of Finance. Your claim is as ridiculous as saying that our Chancellor of the Exchequer is a fringe politican. " In a fractious confidence and supply arrangement in an otherwise dysfunctional PR system, it's not like saying that at all. Israel's entire political system is replete with a bunch of single-issue nutters thanks to PR. | |||
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"Do you mean democracy in Gaza or Israel? Mrs x Palestinians living in East Jerusalem do not have the right to Israeli citizenship. The Israeli government has made it clear that it will not allow a Palestinian state to exist nor will it offer Israeli citizenship to the people of the regions it occupies. This is what I mean about the Palestinians being denied democratic rights. Your only reference points are Wikipedia and Google. You conveniently and conveniently ignore thay the Egyptians and Jordanians want nothing to do with the Palestinians. And the Lebanese do not grant citizenship to the Palestinians because, simply put, they don't want them and their Shia politics in Lebanon. Why on earth do you suppose that any state would grant citizenship to supporters of a doctrine committed to the destruction of that very state? " | |||
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"Do you mean democracy in Gaza or Israel? Mrs x Palestinians living in East Jerusalem do not have the right to Israeli citizenship. The Israeli government has made it clear that it will not allow a Palestinian state to exist nor will it offer Israeli citizenship to the people of the regions it occupies. This is what I mean about the Palestinians being denied democratic rights. Your only reference points are Wikipedia and Google. You conveniently and conveniently ignore thay the Egyptians and Jordanians want nothing to do with the Palestinians. And the Lebanese do not grant citizenship to the Palestinians because, simply put, they don't want them and their Shia politics in Lebanon. Why on earth do you suppose that any state would grant citizenship to supporters of a doctrine committed to the destruction of that very state? " | |||
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"In a fractious confidence and supply arrangement in an otherwise dysfunctional PR system, it's not like saying that at all. Israel's entire political system is replete with a bunch of single-issue nutters thanks to PR." I realise that some think that proportional representation is a terrible idea but putting that to one side. The Knesset vote in July was 71-13 in favour of annexation and the October one 25-24. Even though these were largely symbolic, they were real votes. Public opinion polling varies enormously depending on the exact questions asked and when the poll was conducted. Lookng at polling well before October 7th and before Trump's threats, the Israeli Voice Index for April 2020 is worth examining. Basically support for annexation seems not to be a fringe view, especially on the right of the political spectrum. But as it's become obvious that the US could withdraw support then it's simply not going to happen. | |||
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"In a fractious confidence and supply arrangement in an otherwise dysfunctional PR system, it's not like saying that at all. Israel's entire political system is replete with a bunch of single-issue nutters thanks to PR. I realise that some think that proportional representation is a terrible idea but putting that to one side. The Knesset vote in July was 71-13 in favour of annexation and the October one 25-24. Even though these were largely symbolic, they were real votes. Public opinion polling varies enormously depending on the exact questions asked and when the poll was conducted. Lookng at polling well before October 7th and before Trump's threats, the Israeli Voice Index for April 2020 is worth examining. Basically support for annexation seems not to be a fringe view, especially on the right of the political spectrum. But as it's become obvious that the US could withdraw support then it's simply not going to happen. " Those votes weren't largely symbolic they were symbolic. The first was a 'non binding' resolution. As for the second, it was seen as a 'political stunt', a slap in the face of Netanyahu. As the Times of Israel points out... "In an embarrassment to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, right-wing lawmakers voted on Wednesday to pass, in its preliminary reading, a bill that would apply Israeli sovereignty to all West Bank settlements — as well as another, more limited bill to annex a major city-settlement — despite opposition from Netanyahu and most of his Likud party to announcing such a move at this time. The bills must still pass three additional votes in the plenum and will now be referred to the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee for further consideration. It is highly unlikely that Netanyahu will allow either of the two bills to pass into law. All but one Likud lawmaker boycotted the votes. MK Yuli Edelstein broke ranks to vote in favor, casting a decisive vote and helping the bill to annex all settlements scrape by 25-24." Mrs x | |||
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