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"Keir Starmer set to announce UK recognition of Palestine state today. Should we then help the democratically elected Hamas government to kick the invaders out of Palestine and take control of aid and food supplies to the 2 million displaced population. " It will be curious to see whether it's recognition of a state (with borders and a government), or that a state should, in principle, exist. Or some political-speak hybrid. | |||
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 . Their government needs to be formed with help from the international community but somehow terrorism needs to be displaced from any governing party | |||
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"I dont agree with it, basically, he overrides what 90% thinks, terrorism should not be rewarded." Where did you get the 90% from? According to YouGov's poll from a few days ago, 44% of Brits support Palestinian statehood compared with 18% against. It's got bugger all to do with rewarding terrorism. The settlement project in the West Bank has been going on for very many decades. It's similar to what the Europeans did to the indigenous people of the Americas between the 17th and 19th centuries. Which is perhaps why so many US citizens feel comfortable with it. | |||
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"I think a lot of Americans are waking up to what’s going on especially the younger right wing! Unfortunately the msm is generally owned by Zionists just like a lot of ours, so unfortunately the older generations believe the media they are fed. Just like so many over here, on many subject matters that don’t hold up to scrutiny!" I'm not so sure. There has always been a lot of anti-semitic vitirol on the right in the US and I don't think younger people are immune to this. Look at Nick Fuentes for instance. It's also complicated because considerable US support for Israel comes from evangelical eschatologists who believe that in order for Christ to come again the Temple needs to be rebuilt. | |||
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"The UK is just one in this latest tranche of countries recognising Palestinian statehood. The overwhelming majority of UN member states believe that the Palestinian people deserve a state and the same dignity and human rights that we all expect for ourselves. Even putting the horrors of Gaza to one side, the Israeli government's actions in the West Bank make it imperative that this step is taken now. The settlement project has reached a critical stage where it's approaching a tipping point. I don't think many on the right here know much about what's actually happening on the ground. It's a far worse situation than at the end of apartheid in South Africa and although the US will continue to support the oppression of millions, it's important for the rest of the world to at least make a politicial stand. Personally I think we need to go much further than mere rhetorical and diplomatic posturing and apply the strongest possible sanctions against the Israeli government. " ^^^^What he said | |||
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"I don't think many on the right here know much about what's actually happening on the ground." (Keen to see how those who identify as "on the right" take to this statement) | |||
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""I don't think many on the right here know much about what's actually happening on the ground." (Keen to see how those who identify as "on the right" take to this statement)" We shall see. But in my experience there's something of a left/right split on this and many on the right seem to be not very curious about what's been happening in the West Bank. For instance barriers being installed on roads around Palestinian villages and towns. There are no security justification for these, they are just designed to make it as difficult as possible for Palestinians to live a normal life. | |||
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" For instance barriers being installed on roads around Palestinian villages and towns. There are no security justification for these, they are just designed to make it as difficult as possible for Palestinians to live a normal life." Only a week ago the Islam’s shot up a bus killing civilians. More security is needed to prevent civilian murders. On the other side of the wall it is USA bombs falling on Gaza’s mass murder. | |||
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"Only a week ago the Islam’s shot up a bus killing civilians. More security is needed to prevent civilian murders." That was a terrorist attack in Jerusalem. I was talking about villages and towns deep in the West Bank where road blocks would have zero impact on such an atrocity. Typically a village or small town might have three or four roads leading to/from it. The IDF block all but one of these roads so locals often have to travel large distances in the opposite direction to where they want to go in order to get around the barriers. It's not about security but about making life for the locals as misearable as possible. And whenever they fancy it, the IDF can shut the only road in and out for hours on end for no apparent reason. This is just one tiny detail in the ongoing oppression. | |||
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"Only a week ago the Islam’s shot up a bus killing civilians. More security is needed to prevent civilian murders. That was a terrorist attack in Jerusalem. I was talking about villages and towns deep in the West Bank where road blocks would have zero impact on such an atrocity." Quote from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025_Ramot_Junction_shooting Hamas's al-Qassam Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack. The perpetrators were identified as Palestinians from the West Bank, reportedly originating from the towns of al-Qubeiba and Qatanna, situated near Ramallah and in proximity to the site of the attack. Arabic sources identified the perpetrators as Mohamed Bassam Taha and Muthanna Naji Amru. A suspected accomplice was later arrested by the Shin Bet in East Jerusalem. ------------------------------ Israel would counter that the road blocks, segregation and fence are necessary to limit these types of attack. Trends from before and after various measures support this view. | |||
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"Only a week ago the Islam’s shot up a bus killing civilians. More security is needed to prevent civilian murders. That was a terrorist attack in Jerusalem. I was talking about villages and towns deep in the West Bank where road blocks would have zero impact on such an atrocity. Typically a village or small town might have three or four roads leading to/from it. The IDF block all but one of these roads so locals often have to travel large distances in the opposite direction to where they want to go in order to get around the barriers. It's not about security but about making life for the locals as misearable as possible. And whenever they fancy it, the IDF can shut the only road in and out for hours on end for no apparent reason. This is just one tiny detail in the ongoing oppression." Everywhere in the globe Islam is killing, either others of themselves. Foreign nationals from 41 countries killed on the October attacks, none of them Jews. Palestinians where cheering in the streets when Israeli women where being butchered. Can’t blame Israel for protecting its people. Others have not been so lucky; 9/11,7/7, Boston marathon, Manchester, London Bridge, Charlie Hebdo etc by the Islam. This week secret cctv showing several uk mosques preaching hate and killing of infidels; the mosque full of islams on benefits supported by the British taxpayer | |||
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"Quote from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025_Ramot_Junction_shooting Hamas's al-Qassam Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack. The perpetrators were identified as Palestinians from the West Bank, reportedly originating from the towns of al-Qubeiba and Qatanna, situated near Ramallah and in proximity to the site of the attack. Arabic sources identified the perpetrators as Mohamed Bassam Taha and Muthanna Naji Amru. A suspected accomplice was later arrested by the Shin Bet in East Jerusalem. ------------------------------ Israel would counter that the road blocks, segregation and fence are necessary to limit these types of attack. Trends from before and after various measures support this view." If you read the wiki article you linked to you'd know that it says that the attack took place in East Jerusalem (which although technically part of the occupied West Bank isn't the same as the villages and small towns I've been talking about) and that Israeli forces and settlers have killed about 20 times more Palestinians in the West Bank than Israelis killed by Palestinians. The small barriers aren't part of the 400+ mile long Berlin style wall but basic concrete and steel barriers designed to stop regular people from travelling in an out of their own villages and towns. Also the mention of the barriers was just one aspect of what's been happening in the West Bank. It's a bit of a distraction to only focus on them. Just to be clear, I condemn the bus attack and any other attacks on civilians by either side. | |||
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"Everywhere in the globe Islam is killing, either others of themselves. Foreign nationals from 41 countries killed on the October attacks, none of them Jews. Palestinians where cheering in the streets when Israeli women where being butchered. Can’t blame Israel for protecting its people. Others have not been so lucky; 9/11,7/7, Boston marathon, Manchester, London Bridge, Charlie Hebdo etc by the Islam. This week secret cctv showing several uk mosques preaching hate and killing of infidels; the mosque full of islams on benefits supported by the British taxpayer" This is getting a bit boring. Your lack of rigour and wild oscillations from one side of an argument to the other make you look like a Russian bot. Although I'm confident that you aren't a bot but rather someone who just gets off on lobbing rhetorical grenades. I'm a well-informed atheist and can easily come up with a huge amount of dirt on Christianity but that would be disingenuous as nasty people who happen to be Christians and use Christian concepts to support their nastiness are ultimately just nasty people. Their religion is simply cover. It's the same with Muslims, Jews and even Buddhists. Hamas for instance are a far-right, mostly racist, ultra-nationalist bunch of knuckle draggers. The fact that they wave the banner of Islam is pretty much irrelevant to their hateful ideology. Similarly the Nazis knew that Protestanism was popular amongst the volk so they leaned into the whole Martin Luther vibe because he was a raving anti-semite, but ultimately the Nazis weren't motivated by Christianity any more than Hamas are motivated by Islam. | |||
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"...the Nazis weren't motivated by Christianity any more than Hamas are motivated by Islam. " Um...? Hamas is literally an offshoot from the Muslim Brotherhood, which is absolutely all about Islam. Hamas are not fighting for political freedom or nationalism. They're fighting to disgorge the Jews and for Islam to rule. | |||
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" If you read the wiki article you linked to you'd know that it says that the attack took place in East Jerusalem (which although technically part of the occupied West Bank isn't the same as the villages and small towns I've been talking about)... " Yes... and? This was the event to which the other poster was referring and to which you responded. People from outside of the "fence" came into it. Irrespective of the specific geography (Ramot straddles the Green Line), his point is valid. | |||
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"Um...? Hamas is literally an offshoot from the Muslim Brotherhood, which is absolutely all about Islam. Hamas are not fighting for political freedom or nationalism. They're fighting to disgorge the Jews and for Islam to rule." About as much as Hitler's talk about Jesus and the Jews was about Christianity ruling. I recommend you look up the similarity between Martin Luther's "On the Jews and Their Lies" and Nazism. One could argue that Nazism was even more closely tied to Christianity than Hamas is to Islam. But I think this way of looking at things is misguided. Nasty people look for any kind of cover they can find to justify their nastiness. Even though I'm an atheist, I think it's very unfair to blame religion for everything. | |||
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"Yes... and? This was the event to which the other poster was referring and to which you responded. People from outside of the "fence" came into it. Irrespective of the specific geography (Ramot straddles the Green Line), his point is valid." The barriers around Palestinian villages and towns deep in the West bank won't prevent terrorist attacks in East Jerusalem. They are just designed to make life for regular Palestinians more difficult. | |||
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"Um...? Hamas is literally an offshoot from the Muslim Brotherhood, which is absolutely all about Islam. Hamas are not fighting for political freedom or nationalism. They're fighting to disgorge the Jews and for Islam to rule. About as much as Hitler's talk about Jesus and the Jews was about Christianity ruling. I recommend you look up the similarity between Martin Luther's "On the Jews and Their Lies" and Nazism. One could argue that Nazism was even more closely tied to Christianity than Hamas is to Islam. But I think this way of looking at things is misguided. Nasty people look for any kind of cover they can find to justify their nastiness. Even though I'm an atheist, I think it's very unfair to blame religion for everything." There are so many things wrong in that post. Do you have any evidence that Hitler was driven by Christianity? All evidence shows he was against Christianity. Catholic priests were thrown into concentration camps under the Nazi rule. Hitler even promised to de-Christianity from Germany after the final victory. | |||
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"Um...? Hamas is literally an offshoot from the Muslim Brotherhood, which is absolutely all about Islam. Hamas are not fighting for political freedom or nationalism. They're fighting to disgorge the Jews and for Islam to rule. About as much as Hitler's talk about Jesus and the Jews was about Christianity ruling. I recommend you look up the similarity between Martin Luther's "On the Jews and Their Lies" and Nazism. One could argue that Nazism was even more closely tied to Christianity than Hamas is to Islam. But I think this way of looking at things is misguided. Nasty people look for any kind of cover they can find to justify their nastiness. Even though I'm an atheist, I think it's very unfair to blame religion for everything. There are so many things wrong in that post. Do you have any evidence that Hitler was driven by Christianity? All evidence shows he was against Christianity. Catholic priests were thrown into concentration camps under the Nazi rule. Hitler even promised to de-Christianity from Germany after the final victory." *Promised to dechristianize Germany | |||
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"Yes... and? This was the event to which the other poster was referring and to which you responded. People from outside of the "fence" came into it. Irrespective of the specific geography (Ramot straddles the Green Line), his point is valid. The barriers around Palestinian villages and towns deep in the West bank won't prevent terrorist attacks in East Jerusalem. They are just designed to make life for regular Palestinians more difficult." This… sky news did a really good documentary on this literally 1 month ago… you can find it on YouTube if you are really interested Louis Theroux did one at the beginning of the year… you can that as well | |||
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"Keir Starmer set to announce UK recognition of Palestine state today..." Did he also say that it has his full confidence? | |||
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"Bad idea, rewarding terrorists." This  . | |||
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"There are so many things wrong in that post. Do you have any evidence that Hitler was driven by Christianity? All evidence shows he was against Christianity. Catholic priests were thrown into concentration camps under the Nazi rule. Hitler even promised to de-Christianity from Germany after the final victory." As is often the case, you have completely misunderstood my argument. Of course Hilter wasn't a Chrisitian. As a deranged megalomaniac the only thing he believed to be divine was himself. However the vast majority of the population were Christians and of them Protestants made the majority and most of them were Lutheran. So it was extremely convenient for HItler to use Christianisty as a cover. The antisemitism of Luther was particularly useful as it gave some kind of religious authority to Nazism's scapegoating of the Jews. The history of religion in this part of the world is extremely complex and well beyond the scope of this thread but ever since Luther supposedly nailed Ninety-five Theses to the door there has been violent conflict between Catholics and Protestants - often stoked up by political figures with little real interest in religious matters.. The Holocaust is something of an embarrassment for many German Christians so something of a myth has developed to claim that most German people converted to neopaganism during the period. This is rubbish as only a tiny percentage of Germans identified as Gottglaubig with about 90% identifying as either Catholioc or Protestant. | |||
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"There are so many things wrong in that post. Do you have any evidence that Hitler was driven by Christianity? All evidence shows he was against Christianity. Catholic priests were thrown into concentration camps under the Nazi rule. Hitler even promised to de-Christianity from Germany after the final victory. As is often the case, you have completely misunderstood my argument. Of course Hilter wasn't a Chrisitian. As a deranged megalomaniac the only thing he believed to be divine was himself. However the vast majority of the population were Christians and of them Protestants made the majority and most of them were Lutheran. So it was extremely convenient for HItler to use Christianisty as a cover. The antisemitism of Luther was particularly useful as it gave some kind of religious authority to Nazism's scapegoating of the Jews. The history of religion in this part of the world is extremely complex and well beyond the scope of this thread but ever since Luther supposedly nailed Ninety-five Theses to the door there has been violent conflict between Catholics and Protestants - often stoked up by political figures with little real interest in religious matters.. The Holocaust is something of an embarrassment for many German Christians so something of a myth has developed to claim that most German people converted to neopaganism during the period. This is rubbish as only a tiny percentage of Germans identified as Gottglaubig with about 90% identifying as either Catholioc or Protestant. " Correlation doesn't imply causation. The original post you responded to was talking about Islam being a driving force behind Hamas. All you have said is that a vast majority of Nazis were identifying themselves as Christians. But there is no evidence that Christianity itself was used as a driving force behind Nazism. It doesn't make sense to relate Christianity to Nazism especially because the leader of the movement himself was against Christianity and was open about it. Not only that, he even admired Islam. He said, "The peoples of Islam will always be closer to us than, for example, France." Why would the Christians take part in Nazism if Christianity is the driving force when the leader of Nazism is clearly against Christianity? It makes zero sense to say that Christianity is to Nazism just as Islam is to Hamas. | |||
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"Why would the Christians take part in Nazism if Christianity is the driving force when the leader of Nazism is clearly against Christianity?" Again, I'm not saying that Christianity was the driving force behind Nazism, I'm saying it provided convenient cover. Also if Christians thought Hitler was so against Christianity then why did they support him? | |||
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"Part of the reasoning for this recognition of a Palestinian state by several important players on the world stage is to trigger some kind of change. Otherwise the Israeli government will continue to take the West Bank in small incremental steps in the hope that people "don't notice" In response Netanyahu appears to be poised to annex the West Bank or more likely Area C (61% of the area) next week. The Knesset approved an annexation resolution in July this year. This will trigger a tsunami of condemation as it would mean Israel abandoning its deliberate ambiguity on the status of the West Bank. Currently supporters of the Israeli government try to argue that the occupation is for military security reasons and is technically temporary. Annexation would remove this "excuse" and expose Israel as being fully an apartheid state. It would result in the 165 Palestinian enclaves in Area A and Area B having no territorial continuity and essential make Palestinian statehood impossible. Also up to 300,000 Palestinians live in Area C and as far as I know there are no plans to give them Israeli citizenship. If Netanyahu decides to annex it will almost certainly trigger widespread sanctions against Israel similar to what happened to South Africa and destroy any claim that Israel has to being a democracy. " Do you think Israel cares what the UK thinks or any country other than the US? Israel have one job to do destroy Hamas and they are going until they have achieved their goal or the US call time. The symbolic vote grabber from Starmer ahead of Macron is nothing more than words. | |||
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"Do you think Israel cares what the UK thinks or any country other than the US? Israel have one job to do destroy Hamas and they are going until they have achieved their goal or the US call time. The symbolic vote grabber from Starmer ahead of Macron is nothing more than words." Do you having anything to say that is actually relevant to the post you replied to? | |||
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"Why would the Christians take part in Nazism if Christianity is the driving force when the leader of Nazism is clearly against Christianity? Again, I'm not saying that Christianity was the driving force behind Nazism, I'm saying it provided convenient cover. " You made this statement - "One could argue that Nazism was even more closely tied to Christianity than Hamas is to Islam." As I explained above, it's a ridiculous comparison. " Also if Christians thought Hitler was so against Christianity then why did they support him?" For the same reason why Christians vote for atheist politicians. People make compromises depending on policies and situation. | |||
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"You made this statement - "One could argue that Nazism was even more closely tied to Christianity than Hamas is to Islam." As I explained above, it's a ridiculous comparison." And I pointed to Martin Luther's "On the Jews and their lies" as evidence for this, although as I keep saying it's a claim that I don't think is justified as Christianity wasn't the driving force behind Nazism. Just as I don't think that Islam is the driving force behind Hamas. What these two ideologies share is being very right-wing, xenophobic, ultra-nationalist and socially conservative. Your supply of strawmen will surely run out one day. | |||
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"You made this statement - "One could argue that Nazism was even more closely tied to Christianity than Hamas is to Islam." As I explained above, it's a ridiculous comparison. And I pointed to Martin Luther's "On the Jews and their lies" as evidence for this, although as I keep saying it's a claim that I don't think is justified as Christianity wasn't the driving force behind Nazism. Just as I don't think that Islam is the driving force behind Hamas. " Your reasoning here makes zero sense. Nazism the ideology that evolved under Hitler is not fundamentally Christian. In fact, Hitler himself did not like Christianity. Just because some of the followers were Christian or they took some inspiration from a Christian Reformer, it doesn't make the movement Christian. They were open to people from other religions too. On the other hand, Hamas is officially an Islamic organisation. " What these two ideologies share is being very right-wing, xenophobic, ultra-nationalist and socially conservative. " If we are talking anti-semitism, even the very left-wing shares the same views. Just ask Stalin. " Your supply of strawmen will surely run out one day." And you will run out of goal posts to move to. | |||
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"Do you think Israel cares what the UK thinks or any country other than the US? Israel have one job to do destroy Hamas and they are going until they have achieved their goal or the US call time. The symbolic vote grabber from Starmer ahead of Macron is nothing more than words. Do you having anything to say that is actually relevant to the post you replied to?" It was a simple question in line with the thread, care to answer? | |||
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"It was a simple question in line with the thread, care to answer?" The Netanyahu government do care otherwise they wouldn't be complaining so loudly and threatening some kind of retribution. The post of mine that you quoted was about the situation in the West Bank so I was expecting your reply to say something about the West Bank. | |||
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"It was a simple question in line with the thread, care to answer? The Netanyahu government do care otherwise they wouldn't be complaining so loudly and threatening some kind of retribution. The post of mine that you quoted was about the situation in the West Bank so I was expecting your reply to say something about the West Bank. " Fair point ref West Bank but my question should cover that too, Israel do not care what the rest of the world think of them, with the exception of the US administration. | |||
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"Fair point ref West Bank but my question should cover that too, Israel do not care what the rest of the world think of them, with the exception of the US administration." I agree that Israel relies heavily on US military and diplomatic support and this is unlikely to change anytime soon. But Israel is quite vulnerable in terms of trade. For instance although their main export market is the US, more than 70% of their exports go elsewhere (according to the UN Comtrade database). Israel's largest supplier is China. So Israel would be in serious trouble if trade sanctions were put in place and it had to rely only on the US. So although Netanyahu projects plenty of economic confidence, it's mainly bullshit for domestic political consumption. This is why I'm not sure he will actually opt for annexation as the economic consequences could be severe. He's a shrewd operator and will be weighing up whether it's worth shooting himself in the foot. | |||
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"if the fascist likud government didn't care then they wouldn't have spent all day whinging , bitching and moaning about all the countries who have recognised the palestinians absolute right to exist." Of course they are going to counter this with their own rhetoric, Israel is not cut off from the world. Let’s be clear, because the emotionally charged wording tends to present these things in the wrong light... recognising a Palestinian state is not the same thing as recognising a people’s right to exist, existence is a given. | |||
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"Looks like uk has changed sides Only a few months ago the RAF were allegedly accused of running over 500 surveillance sortees for the IDF. " Corbyn's Your Party is on the ropes, perfect time to influence any MP who was thinking of hoping over, when they make their come inevitable back. | |||
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"if the fascist likud government didn't care then they wouldn't have spent all day whinging , bitching and moaning about all the countries who have recognised the palestinians absolute right to exist. Of course they are going to counter this with their own rhetoric, Israel is not cut off from the world. Let’s be clear, because the emotionally charged wording tends to present these things in the wrong light... recognising a Palestinian state is not the same thing as recognising a people’s right to exist, existence is a given." not to the israeli government it's not, especially when one considers that the israeli fascist government have stated that the all palestinians are human animals,all must be exterminated, all must be wiped from the face of the earth completely. so no, sensible people disagree with that. | |||
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"recognising a Palestinian state is not the same thing as recognising a people’s right to exist, existence is a given." You clearly havent been listening to many Israeli politicians - going all the way back to Golda Meir's declaration in 1969 that "There was no such thing as Palestinians". And even earlier to the 19th century Christian zionists - "A land without a people and a people without a land". | |||
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" Do you think Israel cares what the UK thinks or any country other than the US? Israel have one job to do destroy Hamas and they are going until they have achieved their goal or the US call time. The symbolic vote grabber from Starmer ahead of Macron is nothing more than words. " Have a think about what you are saying…… So because you are in conflict with one area under one set of leadership, your solution is to annexe another part under a different set of leadership That’s a bit like saying because i am in a fight with New York, my solution is to annexe California…. That will teach those nasty pasty’s | |||
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"He should get his own country sorted first instead of meddling in others affairs" This as is the case with most pms over the years. | |||
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" Do you think Israel cares what the UK thinks or any country other than the US? Israel have one job to do destroy Hamas and they are going until they have achieved their goal or the US call time. The symbolic vote grabber from Starmer ahead of Macron is nothing more than words. Have a think about what you are saying…… So because you are in conflict with one area under one set of leadership, your solution is to annexe another part under a different set of leadership That’s a bit like saying because i am in a fight with New York, my solution is to annexe California…. That will teach those nasty pasty’s " I'm giving you my view on Israeli thinking, not my opinion as right or wrong. | |||
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"recognising a Palestinian state is not the same thing as recognising a people’s right to exist, existence is a given. You clearly havent been listening to many Israeli politicians - going all the way back to Golda Meir's declaration in 1969 that "There was no such thing as Palestinians". And even earlier to the 19th century Christian zionists - "A land without a people and a people without a land"." I'm saying the UK and others recognising a state of Palestine is not a question of human existence, it is a territorial / border and mostly a symbolic statement. | |||
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"I'm saying the UK and others recognising a state of Palestine is not a question of human existence, it is a territorial / border and mostly a symbolic statement." It literally is about existence. We are talking about five million people who are denied the citizenship that we take totally for granted. Two million of them are being bombed, shot and deprived of essential resources to the extent that many scholars are calling it a genocide. The other three million are denied all basic political rights and subject to a slow and violent process of emprisonment in ever smaller enclaves. The prospects for the Palestians are becoming ever more dire. It's a disgrace that the US supports this and that countries like the UK have sat on their hands for far too long. This recent wave of recognition should be just the start of a radical change in how the international community deals with an outragous situation. People like yourself who say nothing can be done should to be ashamed of yourselves and start advocating for change. You are part of the problem and history will not judge you kindly. | |||
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"I'm saying the UK and others recognising a state of Palestine is not a question of human existence, it is a territorial / border and mostly a symbolic statement. It literally is about existence. We are talking about five million people who are denied the citizenship that we take totally for granted. Two million of them are being bombed, shot and deprived of essential resources to the extent that many scholars are calling it a genocide. The other three million are denied all basic political rights and subject to a slow and violent process of emprisonment in ever smaller enclaves. The prospects for the Palestians are becoming ever more dire. It's a disgrace that the US supports this and that countries like the UK have sat on their hands for far too long. This recent wave of recognition should be just the start of a radical change in how the international community deals with an outragous situation. People like yourself who say nothing can be done should to be ashamed of yourselves and start advocating for change. You are part of the problem and history will not judge you kindly. " It’s totally different. A state is about territory and borders, not the right of people to exist. Conflating the two gives recognition of a Palestinian state a false meaning. Getting the basics right is important | |||
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"I'm saying the UK and others recognising a state of Palestine is not a question of human existence, it is a territorial / border and mostly a symbolic statement. It literally is about existence. We are talking about five million people who are denied the citizenship that we take totally for granted. Two million of them are being bombed, shot and deprived of essential resources to the extent that many scholars are calling it a genocide. The other three million are denied all basic political rights and subject to a slow and violent process of emprisonment in ever smaller enclaves. The prospects for the Palestians are becoming ever more dire. It's a disgrace that the US supports this and that countries like the UK have sat on their hands for far too long. This recent wave of recognition should be just the start of a radical change in how the international community deals with an outragous situation. People like yourself who say nothing can be done should to be ashamed of yourselves and start advocating for change. You are part of the problem and history will not judge you kindly. It’s totally different. A state is about territory and borders, not the right of people to exist. Conflating the two gives recognition of a Palestinian state a false meaning. Getting the basics right is important" in that case you desperately need to get back to basics because what you're saying is utterly wrong on all counts. | |||
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"I'm saying the UK and others recognising a state of Palestine is not a question of human existence, it is a territorial / border and mostly a symbolic statement. It literally is about existence. We are talking about five million people who are denied the citizenship that we take totally for granted. Two million of them are being bombed, shot and deprived of essential resources to the extent that many scholars are calling it a genocide. The other three million are denied all basic political rights and subject to a slow and violent process of emprisonment in ever smaller enclaves. The prospects for the Palestians are becoming ever more dire. It's a disgrace that the US supports this and that countries like the UK have sat on their hands for far too long. This recent wave of recognition should be just the start of a radical change in how the international community deals with an outragous situation. People like yourself who say nothing can be done should to be ashamed of yourselves and start advocating for change. You are part of the problem and history will not judge you kindly. It’s totally different. A state is about territory and borders, not the right of people to exist. Conflating the two gives recognition of a Palestinian state a false meaning. Getting the basics right is important in that case you desperately need to get back to basics because what you're saying is utterly wrong on all counts. " Educate me | |||
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"I'm saying the UK and others recognising a state of Palestine is not a question of human existence, it is a territorial / border and mostly a symbolic statement. It literally is about existence. We are talking about five million people who are denied the citizenship that we take totally for granted. Two million of them are being bombed, shot and deprived of essential resources to the extent that many scholars are calling it a genocide. The other three million are denied all basic political rights and subject to a slow and violent process of emprisonment in ever smaller enclaves. The prospects for the Palestians are becoming ever more dire. It's a disgrace that the US supports this and that countries like the UK have sat on their hands for far too long. This recent wave of recognition should be just the start of a radical change in how the international community deals with an outragous situation. People like yourself who say nothing can be done should to be ashamed of yourselves and start advocating for change. You are part of the problem and history will not judge you kindly. It’s totally different. A state is about territory and borders, not the right of people to exist. Conflating the two gives recognition of a Palestinian state a false meaning. Getting the basics right is important in that case you desperately need to get back to basics because what you're saying is utterly wrong on all counts. Educate me" you've been schooled countless times but you seem to have an extreme learning difficulty. | |||
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"I'm saying the UK and others recognising a state of Palestine is not a question of human existence, it is a territorial / border and mostly a symbolic statement. It literally is about existence. We are talking about five million people who are denied the citizenship that we take totally for granted. Two million of them are being bombed, shot and deprived of essential resources to the extent that many scholars are calling it a genocide. The other three million are denied all basic political rights and subject to a slow and violent process of emprisonment in ever smaller enclaves. The prospects for the Palestians are becoming ever more dire. It's a disgrace that the US supports this and that countries like the UK have sat on their hands for far too long. This recent wave of recognition should be just the start of a radical change in how the international community deals with an outragous situation. People like yourself who say nothing can be done should to be ashamed of yourselves and start advocating for change. You are part of the problem and history will not judge you kindly. It’s totally different. A state is about territory and borders, not the right of people to exist. Conflating the two gives recognition of a Palestinian state a false meaning. Getting the basics right is important in that case you desperately need to get back to basics because what you're saying is utterly wrong on all counts. Educate me you've been schooled countless times but you seem to have an extreme learning difficulty. " You consistently turn to insults, you can't help yourself. If you are responding to me have a reason other than insults, or don't bother. | |||
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"It’s totally different. A state is about territory and borders, not the right of people to exist. Conflating the two gives recognition of a Palestinian state a false meaning. Getting the basics right is important" A state is a mechanism for people to have citizenship and some collective control over their lives. In the occupied territories being of the wrong ethnicity means that you have no citizenship, no political rights, your movement can be tightly controlled, your property can be taken from you by force, you can be imprisoned without charge and you can be killed with impunity. I suspect that you don't see the reality that being stateless is an existential threat because you've never considered what it would be like to be in that position yourself. | |||
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"It’s totally different. A state is about territory and borders, not the right of people to exist. Conflating the two gives recognition of a Palestinian state a false meaning. Getting the basics right is important A state is a mechanism for people to have citizenship and some collective control over their lives. In the occupied territories being of the wrong ethnicity means that you have no citizenship, no political rights, your movement can be tightly controlled, your property can be taken from you by force, you can be imprisoned without charge and you can be killed with impunity. I suspect that you don't see the reality that being stateless is an existential threat because you've never considered what it would be like to be in that position yourself. " You’re making a lot of assumptions … recognising the state of Palestine has nothing to do with the right to exist. Statehood is about defined borders, government, and international recognition. Human existence is about rights and survival. Conflating the two makes it sound as though recognition alone solves the humanitarian crisis when in reality it doesn’t. Recognition is symbolic. | |||
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"You’re making a lot of assumptions … recognising the state of Palestine has nothing to do with the right to exist. Statehood is about defined borders, government, and international recognition. Human existence is about rights and survival. Conflating the two makes it sound as though recognition alone solves the humanitarian crisis when in reality it doesn’t. Recognition is symbolic." The closest I got to an assumption was conjecture about why you can't see the obvious difference between being a citizen and being stateless. I can't currently think of any simpler ways of trying to explain things to you than I've already tried. | |||
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"You’re making a lot of assumptions … recognising the state of Palestine has nothing to do with the right to exist. Statehood is about defined borders, government, and international recognition. Human existence is about rights and survival. Conflating the two makes it sound as though recognition alone solves the humanitarian crisis when in reality it doesn’t. Recognition is symbolic. The closest I got to an assumption was conjecture about why you can't see the obvious difference between being a citizen and being stateless. I can't currently think of any simpler ways of trying to explain things to you than I've already tried." You’ve cut and pasted the thread away from the original point I was responding to: “if the fascist Likud government didn’t care then they wouldn’t have spent all day whinging about countries recognising the Palestinians’ absolute right to exist.” I will repeat again... Recognition of a Palestinian state is not the same as declaring a peoples right to exist. It’s a diplomatic act about borders, government, and international recognition. People’s existence and rights don’t depend on whether other nations recognise a state. Conflating the two gives a symbolic gesture a weight it doesn’t have. And look at the situation before the UK announced recognition, around 140 countries already had. It gave nothing to Palestinians in real terms, as you said they can't move around, vote etc. | |||
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" I will repeat again... Recognition of a Palestinian state is not the same as declaring a peoples right to exist." you can repeat that nonsense until you're blue in the face but repeating it over and over doesn't turn it from garbage and into truth. | |||
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"You spend countless hours saying that nothing can be done and it's all just pointless symbolism. Why do you bother spreading such a nihilistic message, especially in the face of such suffering?" I have not said nothing can be done, that is what you "assume" I'm saying. What I said was: "a 2 state solution will not work", which is a statement I will stand by. Anyone with an ounce of practical sense can see the challenges of such a solution, however it provides a neat little screen fro our western leaders to hide behind as they talk up hope, and no part for Hamas. | |||
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"I have not said nothing can be done, that is what you "assume" I'm saying. What I said was: "a 2 state solution will not work", which is a statement I will stand by. Anyone with an ounce of practical sense can see the challenges of such a solution, however it provides a neat little screen fro our western leaders to hide behind as they talk up hope, and no part for Hamas." All you have consistently said is that a two-state solution can't work. As far as I can remember you've never suggested anything other than a continuation of the status quo. It seems you are quite comfortable with the status quo (and by implication its direction of travel). If you want to step up and condemn the Israeli government's openly stated goals and behavour then that would be interesting. I don't see this happening as you show every sign of being an apologist for the Israeli government. However, as you are now saying "I have not said nothing can be done" let's reset the conversation and hear what you say can be done. My guess is that you'll say that Hamas must release the remaining hostages and everything will magically transform into sweetness and light, but I hope I am wrong. | |||
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"I have not said nothing can be done, that is what you "assume" I'm saying. What I said was: "a 2 state solution will not work", which is a statement I will stand by. Anyone with an ounce of practical sense can see the challenges of such a solution, however it provides a neat little screen fro our western leaders to hide behind as they talk up hope, and no part for Hamas. All you have consistently said is that a two-state solution can't work. As far as I can remember you've never suggested anything other than a continuation of the status quo. It seems you are quite comfortable with the status quo (and by implication its direction of travel). If you want to step up and condemn the Israeli government's openly stated goals and behavour then that would be interesting. I don't see this happening as you show every sign of being an apologist for the Israeli government. However, as you are now saying "I have not said nothing can be done" let's reset the conversation and hear what you say can be done. My guess is that you'll say that Hamas must release the remaining hostages and everything will magically transform into sweetness and light, but I hope I am wrong. " I’m not sure we can discuss this properly and I don’t mean that badly. From your replies it’s clear you’re heavily invested in your own narrative, and the emotional rhetoric makes it hard to get beyond that. I will give you my thoughts at a high level and you decide if you want to engage. The reality is there’s no way to know what the solution will be while the war continues. The situation could be unrecognisable by the time it ends, Hamas might not exist, Gaza may be fully occupied by Israel, and the West Bank may see more settlement expansion. Until both sides stop fighting, nobody can predict what the next phase will look like or what route peace will take if any. | |||
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"I’m not sure we can discuss this properly and I don’t mean that badly. From your replies it’s clear you’re heavily invested in your own narrative, and the emotional rhetoric makes it hard to get beyond that." You mean my arguments are so powerful and persuasive that you're going to try and dismiss them as "emotional". "I will give you my thoughts at a high level and you decide if you want to engage." I'm always willing to engage but you seem impervious to any kind of rational argument, so I sometimes get frustrated (or more often bored by your lack of insight). "The reality is there’s no way to know what the solution will be while the war continues. The situation could be unrecognisable by the time it ends, Hamas might not exist, Gaza may be fully occupied by Israel, and the West Bank may see more settlement expansion. Until both sides stop fighting, nobody can predict what the next phase will look like or what route peace will take if any." It seems that you have little understanding of the history or detail of this situation and think it's a war started by Hamas a few years ago. You appear to have no regard for the plight of the Palestinians or anything constructive to say about any mechanism for attaining peace, security and justice for either Israelis or Palestinians. | |||
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"I’m not sure we can discuss this properly and I don’t mean that badly. From your replies it’s clear you’re heavily invested in your own narrative, and the emotional rhetoric makes it hard to get beyond that. You mean my arguments are so powerful and persuasive that you're going to try and dismiss them as "emotional". I will give you my thoughts at a high level and you decide if you want to engage. I'm always willing to engage but you seem impervious to any kind of rational argument, so I sometimes get frustrated (or more often bored by your lack of insight). The reality is there’s no way to know what the solution will be while the war continues. The situation could be unrecognisable by the time it ends, Hamas might not exist, Gaza may be fully occupied by Israel, and the West Bank may see more settlement expansion. Until both sides stop fighting, nobody can predict what the next phase will look like or what route peace will take if any. It seems that you have little understanding of the history or detail of this situation and think it's a war started by Hamas a few years ago. You appear to have no regard for the plight of the Palestinians or anything constructive to say about any mechanism for attaining peace, security and justice for either Israelis or Palestinians. " I was correct your emotive rhetoric is driving your narrative, which comes as no surprise. | |||
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"I was correct your emotive rhetoric is driving your narrative, which comes as no surprise." I have a great deal of experience in debate and know that anything like "you're just being emotional" is the last resort of someone with no argument or intellectual credibility. | |||
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"@147 nations recognise the Palestinian state, but none with the means or will to do anything about it. |" Each could have taken 13k refugees to places of safety and have not. (For comparison, for uk in isolation that’s about a third of annual small boat arrivals). | |||
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"Each could have taken 13k refugees to places of safety and have not. (For comparison, for uk in isolation that’s about a third of annual small boat arrivals)." The Israeli government claims that it is Israeli Jews who are facing genocide so by your logic wouldn't it make more sense for them to seek refuge? | |||
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"I was correct your emotive rhetoric is driving your narrative, which comes as no surprise. I have a great deal of experience in debate and know that anything like "you're just being emotional" is the last resort of someone with no argument or intellectual credibility. " you have a great deal of self promotion and confidence that I would question, based on your replies. | |||
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"you have a great deal of self promotion and confidence that I would question, based on your replies." I usually prefer to avoid discussion about personality but when someone ignores my reasoned arguments and switches to calling me emotional then I will respond by pointing out that this makes my debating opponent look like a desperate fool. I have a great deal of self confidence because my arguments are well tested over time. I also have a very thick skin. | |||
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"Each could have taken 13k refugees to places of safety and have not. (For comparison, for uk in isolation that’s about a third of annual small boat arrivals). The Israeli government claims that it is Israeli Jews who are facing genocide so by your logic wouldn't it make more sense for them to seek refuge? " Looking at the apocalyptic images of The State of Palestine, comparing that to downtown Tel Aviv, I don’t think that’s necessary. Give Israel another 6 months and Palestine will literally be sand and rubble. | |||
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"Give Israel another 6 months and Palestine will literally be sand and rubble.." Agreed. Although your time estimates might be a little out. I reckon there will be nothing left of Gaza in 3 months. The destruction in the West Bank will maybe take another 5 to 10 years if the international community continues to do nothing. | |||
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"Each could have taken 13k refugees to places of safety and have not. (For comparison, for uk in isolation that’s about a third of annual small boat arrivals). The Israeli government claims that it is Israeli Jews who are facing genocide so by your logic wouldn't it make more sense for them to seek refuge? Looking at the apocalyptic images of The State of Palestine, comparing that to downtown Tel Aviv, I don’t think that’s necessary. Give Israel another 6 months and Palestine will literally be sand and rubble. " That seems to be the plan - continuing to heavily bomb civilian areas where a famine has been declared. They want nothing left for any that get out to have a reason to return - it’s both genocide and sociocide. | |||
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"Give Israel another 6 months and Palestine will literally be sand and rubble.. Agreed. Although your time estimates might be a little out. I reckon there will be nothing left of Gaza in 3 months. The destruction in the West Bank will maybe take another 5 to 10 years if the international community continues to do nothing. " The international community has and will do nothing. Took the UN three and a half years to send peacekeepers to Bosnia; and turned its back on Rwandan genocide. Israel has done 75%+ of its job in Palestine. Hezbollah and Iran gone chicken now as well, nobody else coming to save Palestine | |||
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"I think the western nations are waiting for the other Arab nations to take in the Palestinian Arabs. Equally unlikely to happen. Even if it did, the conflict wouldn’t end there. Human nature… "It’s not human nature , until around 10,000 years ago there were no wars , so how can something be human by nature that’s been happening for a tiny fraction of human existence ? Genocide happens exactly the same reason as homelessness in the UK - shame embarrassment leading to in action and indifference. | |||
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"I think the western nations are waiting for the other Arab nations to take in the Palestinian Arabs. Equally unlikely to happen. Even if it did, the conflict wouldn’t end there. Human nature…
It’s not human nature , until around 10,000 years ago there were no wars , so how can something be human by nature that’s been happening for a tiny fraction of human existence ?
Genocide happens exactly the same reason as homelessness in the UK - shame embarrassment leading to in action and indifference."10,000 years ago you generally just had small groupings of people. There just werent social units big enough to wage large scale “war” as we understand it today. You still had violence between those smaller groups. The archeological record shows that. | |||
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"I think the western nations are waiting for the other Arab nations to take in the Palestinian Arabs. Equally unlikely to happen. Even if it did, the conflict wouldn’t end there. Human nature…
It’s not human nature , until around 10,000 years ago there were no wars , so how can something be human by nature that’s been happening for a tiny fraction of human existence ?
Genocide happens exactly the same reason as homelessness in the UK - shame embarrassment leading to in action and indifference."You should read about what the tribes did to each other. If anything, the last few decades were the least violent in human history | |||
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"All this is just posturing anyway. The easiest way out of this situation is for Hamas to release the hostages and surrender. If that doesn't happen, Israel can justify going after them. " this was never about the hostages for Bibi the baby butcher .... for him it is all about cheating justice by delaying court proceedings and staying out of gaol. | |||
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"All this is just posturing anyway. The easiest way out of this situation is for Hamas to release the hostages and surrender. If that doesn't happen, Israel can justify going after them. this was never about the hostages for Bibi the baby butcher .... for him it is all about cheating justice by delaying court proceedings and staying out of gaol." I’m not convinced it’s about cheating justice although point well made he is apparently a crook. He lost his brother at the Entebbe hostage raid where the Islamics took the Jews hostage, and many will remember the Munich Olympic massacre of Israeli athletes by Palestinian militants. The Palestinians are being taught their final lesson. Nobody wants them and nobody cares about them. They were cheering in the streets when Israeli women were being butchered and cheering on Hamas when those Israel children’s coffins were returned in the recent hostage exchange. | |||
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"All this is just posturing anyway. The easiest way out of this situation is for Hamas to release the hostages and surrender. If that doesn't happen, Israel can justify going after them. this was never about the hostages for Bibi the baby butcher .... for him it is all about cheating justice by delaying court proceedings and staying out of gaol." The whole thing could have been avoided if Hamas didn't pull off that shit. Hamas can't do something like that and believe that and expect Israel to not come after them like this. | |||
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"The Israeli project to get rid of the Palestinians had been going on for decades before Hamas existed. Claimng that everything would be solved if only Hamas released the remaining hostages is ignorant nonsense. " Claiming that Israel is doing this just because they want to, without consideration of the openly genocidal goals of Hamas is nonsense, though I don't believe it's ignorant because it seems to be deliberately overlooked by people who hate Israel. " No matter what happens in Gaza, the settlement programme in the West Bank will continue unless there are wide spread sanctions against Israel. Formal recognition of Palestine as a state was a prerequisite for this to happen. Whether there will be sanctions from countries like France and the UK is still open to question but if Israel annexes the West Bank then I think it will become certain. Even if Netanyahu decides it would be politically and economically too risky to annex the West Bank or Area C, the recently approved E1 project will likely trigger sanctions from many other countries and the collapse of the Abraham Accords if construction goes ahead. " If Western governments force Israel's hands and stop them from going after Hamas, can they promise Israel's safety from Hamas after that? If Hamas attacks Israel after that, will the Western governments and people like you who are against Israel take personal responsibility for the killings and r@pings? Hamas doesn't give a shit about the Western governments. Why must Israel do when it's clear that they cannot guarantee Israel's safety? | |||
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"Claiming that Israel is doing this just because they want to, without consideration of the openly genocidal goals of Hamas is nonsense, though I don't believe it's ignorant because it seems to be deliberately overlooked by people who hate Israel." As is so often the case you have misunderstood. The project to get rid of the Palestinians predates the existance of Hamas and the settlement programme in the West Bank has nothing to do with them. Also I don't hate Israel, I firmly believe that a two-state solution is in the best long-term interests of the Israeli population. | |||
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"Claiming that Israel is doing this just because they want to, without consideration of the openly genocidal goals of Hamas is nonsense, though I don't believe it's ignorant because it seems to be deliberately overlooked by people who hate Israel. As is so often the case you have misunderstood. The project to get rid of the Palestinians predates the existance of Hamas and the settlement programme in the West Bank has nothing to do with them. " And before Hamas, Israel didn't face any threats in the region? For a country as powerful as Israel, if they wanted to get rid of all the Palestinians, they would have succeeded in doing it long back. " Also I don't hate Israel, I firmly believe that a two-state solution is in the best long-term interests of the Israeli population. " "Two-state" is not a solution. It's one of the potential outcomes if both the groups stop hating each other. Drawing arbitrary boundaries on the ground doesn't stop Hamas from wanting to genocide the Jews. And if you can't guarantee Israel's safety, there is no reason why Israel should listen to your advice on how to handle this situation. | |||
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"And before Hamas, Israel didn't face any threats in the region? For a country as powerful as Israel, if they wanted to get rid of all the Palestinians, they would have succeeded in doing it long back." When Israel was recognised by Truman and Stalin in 1948 Jews made up about 30% of the population in the area. In 1914 they made up about 13% of the population, a hundred years prior to that it was about 3%. Since 1967 Israel has controlled the entire area and now about 5 million people live without rights under its control. The idea that Israelis have endured any real existential threat doesn't match history. The reverse is true as about 70% of what was the indigeous population have been subjugated. ""Two-state" is not a solution. It's one of the potential outcomes if both the groups stop hating each other. Drawing arbitrary boundaries on the ground doesn't stop Hamas from wanting to genocide the Jews. And if you can't guarantee Israel's safety, there is no reason why Israel should listen to your advice on how to handle this situation." You presumably fully support Israel's actions. Can you guarantee the security and freedom of the 5 million Palestinians who are being oppressed by the policies you support? | |||
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"While Israelis live in Israel a two state solution ain't happening,they ain't going to allow it. And no one is going to make them" People who supported apartheid said the same kind of thing about South Africa but were proved wrong. | |||
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" When Israel was recognised by Truman and Stalin in 1948 Jews made up about 30% of the population in the area. In 1914 they made up about 13% of the population, a hundred years prior to that it was about 3%. Since 1967 Israel has controlled the entire area and now about 5 million people live without rights under its control. The idea that Israelis have endured any real existential threat doesn't match history. The reverse is true as about 70% of what was the indigeous population have been subjugated. " Israelis never endured existential threat? Who started the 1948 Arab Israeli war? " You presumably fully support Israel's actions. Can you guarantee the security and freedom of the 5 million Palestinians who are being oppressed by the policies you support?" I never said I fully support either. I believe in non-interference in this matter. You don't have to play God all the time. | |||
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"While Israelis live in Israel a two state solution ain't happening,they ain't going to allow it. And no one is going to make them People who supported apartheid said the same kind of thing about South Africa but were proved wrong." difference is Israel have the backing of there big brother the usa they also have a devastating milatary south Africa had neither of those things,show me a country that is going to force them to do something they don't want to do,they said after ww2 that they will never be victims again and I can't see that changing | |||
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"While Israelis live in Israel a two state solution ain't happening,they ain't going to allow it. And no one is going to make them People who supported apartheid said the same kind of thing about South Africa but were proved wrong." also who said I support them? I'm just pointing out the obvious,if Israel don't want a two state solution there won't be a two state solution,if may have escaped your notice but they don't care what anyone else thinks | |||
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"I think the western nations are waiting for the other Arab nations to take in the Palestinian Arabs. Equally unlikely to happen. Even if it did, the conflict wouldn’t end there. Human nature…
It’s not human nature , until around 10,000 years ago there were no wars , so how can something be human by nature that’s been happening for a tiny fraction of human existence ?
Genocide happens exactly the same reason as homelessness in the UK - shame embarrassment leading to in action and indifference.
10,000 years ago you generally just had small groupings of people. There just werent social units big enough to wage large scale “war” as we understand it today. You still had violence between those smaller groups. The archeological record shows that. "I’m not sure what point you are making but genocide is not human nature. The science and history clearly shows human nature is to collaborate and use creativity to advance as a species not to destroy | |||
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"While Israelis live in Israel a two state solution ain't happening,they ain't going to allow it. And no one is going to make them People who supported apartheid said the same kind of thing about South Africa but were proved wrong." And people said similar about the IRA , and then sine fairly insignificant boring old white guy fixed it. The solution is always there for those that want it enough | |||
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"While Israelis live in Israel a two state solution ain't happening,they ain't going to allow it. And no one is going to make them People who supported apartheid said the same kind of thing about South Africa but were proved wrong.difference is Israel have the backing of there big brother the usa they also have a devastating milatary south Africa had neither of those things,show me a country that is going to force them to do something they don't want to do,they said after ww2 that they will never be victims again and I can't see that changing" Israel isn’t a thing with an opinion, you are talking about one old corrupt evil man, one day he will be dead & maybe before then in prison. | |||
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"I think the western nations are waiting for the other Arab nations to take in the Palestinian Arabs. Equally unlikely to happen. Even if it did, the conflict wouldn’t end there. Human nature…
It’s not human nature , until around 10,000 years ago there were no wars , so how can something be human by nature that’s been happening for a tiny fraction of human existence ?
Genocide happens exactly the same reason as homelessness in the UK - shame embarrassment leading to in action and indifference.
10,000 years ago you generally just had small groupings of people. There just werent social units big enough to wage large scale “war” as we understand it today. You still had violence between those smaller groups. The archeological record shows that.
I’m not sure what point you are making but genocide is not human nature. The science and history clearly shows human nature is to collaborate and use creativity to advance as a species not to destroy "Until they don’t agree or someone wants to be on top… | |||
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"I think the western nations are waiting for the other Arab nations to take in the Palestinian Arabs. Equally unlikely to happen. Even if it did, the conflict wouldn’t end there. Human nature…
It’s not human nature , until around 10,000 years ago there were no wars , so how can something be human by nature that’s been happening for a tiny fraction of human existence ?
Genocide happens exactly the same reason as homelessness in the UK - shame embarrassment leading to in action and indifference.
10,000 years ago you generally just had small groupings of people. There just werent social units big enough to wage large scale “war” as we understand it today. You still had violence between those smaller groups. The archeological record shows that.
I’m not sure what point you are making but genocide is not human nature. The science and history clearly shows human nature is to collaborate and use creativity to advance as a species not to destroy
Until they don’t agree or someone wants to be on top… "No, the science shows lots of evidence of disputes not resulting in extinction of one group. Probably one of the best examples of human nature is what happens when a banana is thrown down amount 2 or more dominants. They don’t fight for it , play exchange micro expressions and resolve it nonviolently | |||
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"Israelis never endured existential threat? Who started the 1948 Arab Israeli war?" The history is rather complex. The 1948 war was really a continuation of a long running conflict in which both sides behaved in ways which we would now describe as terroristic. The main cause of the war IMO was the implementation of Plan Dalet (Plan D). This was the last of four military plans (the others were called Plan Aleph, Plan Bet, Plan Gimel). Arguably the planning for the war went all the way back to the 1937 Avnir plan, when Ben-Gurion asked the Haganah commander of Tel Aviv to develop a military plan for when the British left There wasn't really much chance of the Arabs winning. The combined forces of Haganah, Palmach, Irgun, Lehi etc were initially three times larger than the number of Arab fighters. Even in the late stages Israeli forces numbered about 117,000 easily outnumbering the 63,000 Arab forces. UN GA resolution 181 played a part too. But this was just a General Assembly resolution and so legally was completely non-binding. Israel governments have always made a big play of how brave their forces were against overwhelming odds. But it doesn't stand up to any serious historical analysis. Likewise they claim that UH GA 181 handed them legal rights that it didn't. | |||
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"also who said I support them? I'm just pointing out the obvious,if Israel don't want a two state solution there won't be a two state solution,if may have escaped your notice but they don't care what anyone else thinks" I didn't say you did. As I stated earlier, Israel is vulnerable to trade sanctions. Although its main export market is the US, over 70% of its exports go elsewhere. As a small country it is also very dependent on imports. If those states that recognise Palestine implemented comprehensive sanctions then Israel would be in serious economic trouble. And trade sanctions could be just one element with further steps such as the end of military, intelligence and diplomatic relations, divestment, asset freezing and travel bans all adding to the pressure. The Israeli government projects a lot of confidence but it could end up being completely reliant on the US and there is a limit to how much the US taxpayer would cough up. | |||
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"But no one with any sort of functioning economy is going to do that to Israel, us included, we need as much trade as we can get, so sorry to burst your bubble money is way more important to western countrys than Palestinians are, thats just the way it is, you seem to think world leaders have morals or something" According to the government's latest data UK exports to Israel are £3.3 billion and imports are £2.5 billion so if we had a complete ban on trade it would have a net cost of £800 million. It would have very little impact on the UK economy. However if all states that recognise Palestine did the same, the combined effect could cripple the Israeli economy. I have no illusions about the morals of politicians especially Starmer but public opinion is a valuable asset to them. YouGov polling shows a large drop in support for Israel. I don't think at the moment that the UK government would support sanctions (beyond the limited ones already in place) but it depends on what happens in coming days and months. Netanyahu's government must be aware that countries like France and the UK changing their stance means that a tipping point is approaching. | |||
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"But no one with any sort of functioning economy is going to do that to Israel, us included, we need as much trade as we can get, so sorry to burst your bubble money is way more important to western countrys than Palestinians are, thats just the way it is, you seem to think world leaders have morals or something According to the government's latest data UK exports to Israel are £3.3 billion and imports are £2.5 billion so if we had a complete ban on trade it would have a net cost of £800 million. It would have very little impact on the UK economy. However if all states that recognise Palestine did the same, the combined effect could cripple the Israeli economy. I have no illusions about the morals of politicians especially Starmer but public opinion is a valuable asset to them. YouGov polling shows a large drop in support for Israel. I don't think at the moment that the UK government would support sanctions (beyond the limited ones already in place) but it depends on what happens in coming days and months. Netanyahu's government must be aware that countries like France and the UK changing their stance means that a tipping point is approaching. " US gives aid to Israel. One could argue that people's tax money shouldn't be spent on Israel. But as long as Trump is there, the aid isn't going away. The rest of the countries are just doing trade. Trade sanctions aren't done lightly. There is no moral reason to do it in this case. Why specifically focus on Israel? Why not China? Why not Azerbaijan? Why not all the countries which have death penalty for gays? Why focus on Israel alone, when the Palestinians would happily do the same thing to Israel if they are given a chance? | |||
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"US gives aid to Israel. One could argue that people's tax money shouldn't be spent on Israel. But as long as Trump is there, the aid isn't going away." A portion of MAGA are anti-Israel if not outright antisemitic. Jewish space lasers might ring a bell. But I have no doubt that current levels of support from US will continue. But if it needed to be something like $100 billion a year even Trump wouldn't be able to pull that off. "The rest of the countries are just doing trade. Trade sanctions aren't done lightly. There is no moral reason to do it in this case." In our recent discussion on you admiration for Nietzsche I came away with the impression that you thought that morality was essentially a meaningless concept. "Why specifically focus on Israel? Why not China? Why not Azerbaijan? Why not all the countries which have death penalty for gays?" OK lets look at China under Xi Jinping vs Israel under Benjamin Netanyahu. How many children have been killed? How many medical/aid/emergency workers? How many journalists? How many people queueing up for food? How many homes have been demolished? How many stateless people are under occupation? "Why focus on Israel alone, when the Palestinians would happily do the same thing to Israel if they are given a chance?" The PLO recognised Israei's right to exist 32 years ago. Remind me when Israel recognised Palestinian's right to a state. | |||
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" A portion of MAGA are anti-Israel if not outright antisemitic. Jewish space lasers might ring a bell. But I have no doubt that current levels of support from US will continue. But if it needed to be something like $100 billion a year even Trump wouldn't be able to pull that off. " I don't think they will need that much " In our recent discussion on you admiration for Nietzsche I came away with the impression that you thought that morality was essentially a meaningless concept. " No, morality is relative. If you want others to follow the same moral views that you have, you have to convince them one way or the other. Except for the few loud mouths activists, most other people can clearly see that this it's not a straightforward case. " OK lets look at China under Xi Jinping vs Israel under Benjamin Netanyahu. How many children have been killed? How many medical/aid/emergency workers? How many journalists? How many people queueing up for food? How many homes have been demolished? How many stateless people are under occupation? " Would you stop asking for sanctions on Israel if they do exactly what China does with the Uyghurs? Build "re-education camps" for Palestinians? There are middle eastern countries which have death penalty for gays. It's as bad as genocide. And yet none of you leftists have the balls or moral consistency to protest against that or ask for sanctions against these countries, do you? " The PLO recognised Israei's right to exist 32 years ago. Remind me when Israel recognised Palestinian's right to a state." For Israel to be happy with Palestine's existence as an independent entity, they need proof that they won't be a threat to Israel. The last time they withdrew troops and supported elections in Palestine, Hamas was voted in. | |||
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"I don't think they will need that much" Israeli exports are $166 billion. The US buys about $23 billion of that. As I said, Israel is very economically vulnerable to comprehensive trade sanctions. "No, morality is relative. If you want others to follow the same moral views that you have, you have to convince them one way or the other. Except for the few loud mouths activists, most other people can clearly see that this it's not a straightforward case." 53% of Americans now express an unfavorable opinion of Israel according to recent polling by Pew Research. All loud-mouthed lefties no doubt. "Would you stop asking for sanctions on Israel if they do exactly what China does with the Uyghurs? Build "re-education camps" for Palestinians? There are middle eastern countries which have death penalty for gays. It's as bad as genocide. And yet none of you leftists have the balls or moral consistency to protest against that or ask for sanctions against these countries, do you?" The Chinese government is extremely repressive and undemocratic. I'm obviously not a fan. Here's Amnesty's overview of China... "The government continued to enforce repressive laws and policies that restricted the right to freedom of expression and other human rights. Human rights defenders were arrested, prosecuted and sentenced to long prison terms. Activists living overseas faced threats and intimidation. New restrictions on religious freedom were introduced in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region and prosecutions of intellectuals, artists and other Uyghur cultural figures continued. Chinese authorities’ repression of Tibetan culture and language intensified. Renewable energy generation capacity was expanded but China remained heavily reliant on coal. A new national security law further restricted civic space in Hong Kong where dozens of pro-democracy activists were sentenced to long prison terms." But if you answered the questions I posed then we could examine the data and compare China with Israel. But I'm confident that you won't do that as it would totally destroy your argument. Maybe you'll respond if we focus in on just the Uyghurs - how many have been killed since Xi Jinping came to power? As for the genocide against gays - how many people have been exectuted for being homosexual in say the past 5 years? "For Israel to be happy with Palestine's existence as an independent entity, they need proof that they won't be a threat to Israel. The last time they withdrew troops and supported elections in Palestine, Hamas was voted in." What's remarkable about the Palestinians is that there are any left who would trust the Israelis to come to peace given that Israelis have killed very many more Palestinians than vice versa, many Palestinians are imprisoned without charge and prominant Israeli politicans have said that Palestinians don't even exist. | |||
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" For Israel to be happy with Palestine's existence as an independent entity, they need proof that they won't be a threat to Israel. The last time they withdrew troops and supported elections in Palestine, Hamas was voted in. " Exactly and Israel are not going to listen to anyone other than the US. Why would they? The naivety of those who think a 2 state solution would work after the events of this war is ming boggling, but I guess it gives them an anchor... | |||
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" What's remarkable about the Palestinians is that there are any left who would trust the Israelis to come to peace... " There aren't, really. The only reason for them supporting any agreement is to (a) make the immediate horrors stop, and (b) allow time to regroup. " ...given that Israelis have killed very many more Palestinians than vice versa... " That's a feature of technological/military advantage. Were positions reversed, it would be even more asymmetrical, and both sides know it (and so do you). " ...and prominant Israeli politicans have said that Palestinians don't even exist. " *That a distinct Palestinian nationality does not exist in history. You cannot simply will physical entities (Palestinians) out of existence... Even if you are a right wing Israeli politician  | |||
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"I don't think they will need that much Israeli exports are $166 billion. The US buys about $23 billion of that. As I said, Israel is very economically vulnerable to comprehensive trade sanctions. " My original point was about aid. Trade and aid are two different things. People/politicians have different views on both. They might be easily convinced to stop giving aid. But it's hard to convince them to enforce trade sanctions, especially on an issue as complex as the Israel one. " 53% of Americans now express an unfavorable opinion of Israel according to recent polling by Pew Research. All loud-mouthed lefties no doubt. " Barely good enough to stop aid, that too only if democrats win. But not good enough for trade sanctions. " But if you answered the questions I posed then we could examine the data and compare China with Israel. But I'm confident that you won't do that as it would totally destroy your argument. Maybe you'll respond if we focus in on just the Uyghurs - how many have been killed since Xi Jinping came to power? " You are the one avoiding the question. I am talking specifically about how China deals with Uyghurs. They pull many of them into "re-education camps" if they don't toe the party line. Would you stop asking for trade sanctions if Israel does the same with Palestinians? Because you seem to focused only on number of deaths. " As for the genocide against gays - how many people have been exectuted for being homosexual in say the past 5 years? " Because most gays don't come out as gays. Why would they do it if they know that they will be legally executed if they do so? It doesn't stop it from being equivalent to genocide. " What's remarkable about the Palestinians is that there are any left who would trust the Israelis to come to peace given that Israelis have killed very many more Palestinians than vice versa, many Palestinians are imprisoned without charge and prominant Israeli politicans have said that Palestinians don't even exist. " Which brings me to the original point - We have two groups who are in a vicious cycle of hate. You are against the stronger side just because they are stronger. We all know that if Palestine gets more powerful, they would do the same, if not worse, to Israel. Palestine or Hamas do not give a fuck about Western views on this matter. Why must Israel? Why must the West force Israel's hands when they know that the opposite side wouldn't give a fuck about the West? | |||
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"Exactly and Israel are not going to listen to anyone other than the US. Why would they? The naivety of those who think a 2 state solution would work after the events of this war is ming boggling, but I guess it gives them an anchor..." Yet more wool. I reckon you have a field full of sheep right outside your back door. Maybe you could engage with the substance for a change? The majority of US citizens now disapprove of Israel. The majority of the world recognises Palestinian stateood. Israel is vulnerable to sanctions. Do you disagree with any of these points? How long will people like you defend the indefensible? It is in Israel's own interest to step back from the precipice and negotiate. The ethnic cleansing of Gaza and the West Bank will not deliver security nor prosperity for the citizens of Israel. | |||
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"There aren't, really. The only reason for them supporting any agreement is to (a) make the immediate horrors stop, and (b) allow time to regroup." Who are the "them"? "That's a feature of technological/military advantage. Were positions reversed, it would be even more asymmetrical, and both sides know it (and so do you)." Again this notion of "them". I suspect what you mean is Hamas. Hopefully you are aware that Netanyahu helped Hamas come to power in a cynical ploy to prevent a two-state solution and that Hamas do not represent all Palestinians by any measure. "*That a distinct Palestinian nationality does not exist in history. You cannot simply will physical entities (Palestinians) out of existence... Even if you are a right wing Israeli politician" The Palestinians have a long history. They were part of the Ottoman Empire between the 16th and 20th century and many other empires before. But as far as I know they were always treated as citizens until 1948. | |||
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"Exactly and Israel are not going to listen to anyone other than the US. Why would they? The naivety of those who think a 2 state solution would work after the events of this war is ming boggling, but I guess it gives them an anchor... Yet more wool. I reckon you have a field full of sheep right outside your back door. Maybe you could engage with the substance for a change? The majority of US citizens now disapprove of Israel. The majority of the world recognises Palestinian stateood. Israel is vulnerable to sanctions. Do you disagree with any of these points? How long will people like you defend the indefensible? It is in Israel's own interest to step back from the precipice and negotiate. The ethnic cleansing of Gaza and the West Bank will not deliver security nor prosperity for the citizens of Israel. " Wool, it can't be clearer 
Where you keeping tripping yourself up, is you believe that anyone who discusses anything other than "your ideas" is supporting war crimes and the war itself, it isn't a strong starting point for you.
Your point about negotiation is in Israel's interest is a perfect example of how far away from reality you are. You can't be so blind to the fact that Israel do not want to negotiate, surely... | |||
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"Wool, it can't be clearer Where you keeping tripping yourself up, is you believe that anyone who discusses anything other than "your ideas" is supporting war crimes and the war itself, it isn't a strong starting point for you. Your point about negotiation is in Israel's interest is a perfect example of how far away from reality you are. You can't be so blind to the fact that Israel do not want to negotiate, surely..." The reason I call your posts woolly is that they rarely engage in real debate or express anything of substance. It's usually you just expressing some extremely vague opinion. For instance your proposition that I believe that anyone who discusses anything other than my ideas is supporting war crimes. You don't provide anything to support this because I don't believe this and I don't post things that I don't believe. You're just making shit up. Although when people defend the behaviour of the Israeli government it's clear that they aren't condemning war crimes. But there's a difference between supporting and not condemning. One is active approval the other is passive and open to qualification. The Israeli government do not want to negotiate because so far they've thought that the costs in terms of Israeli and other people's lives has been worth them continuing to persue their ambition of a Greater Israel. My value judgement is that this isn't in the interests of the Israeli people. | |||
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"Wool, it can't be clearer Where you keeping tripping yourself up, is you believe that anyone who discusses anything other than "your ideas" is supporting war crimes and the war itself, it isn't a strong starting point for you. Your point about negotiation is in Israel's interest is a perfect example of how far away from reality you are. You can't be so blind to the fact that Israel do not want to negotiate, surely... The reason I call your posts woolly is that they rarely engage in real debate or express anything of substance. It's usually you just expressing some extremely vague opinion. For instance your proposition that I believe that anyone who discusses anything other than my ideas is supporting war crimes. You don't provide anything to support this because I don't believe this and I don't post things that I don't believe. You're just making shit up. Although when people defend the behaviour of the Israeli government it's clear that they aren't condemning war crimes. But there's a difference between supporting and not condemning. One is active approval the other is passive and open to qualification. The Israeli government do not want to negotiate because so far they've thought that the costs in terms of Israeli and other people's lives has been worth them continuing to persue their ambition of a Greater Israel. My value judgement is that this isn't in the interests of the Israeli people. " Scroll back though your replies: "you show every sign of being an apologist for the Israeli government". "People like yourself who say nothing can be done should to be ashamed of yourselves and start advocating for change. You are part of the problem and history will not judge you kindly". Both of those comments are basically wrong, but they are what I have come to expect when I challenge the crazy notion that a 2 state solution will work, that is not being vague is it? For absolute clarity, the UK recognising a Palestinian state is meaningless act other than symbolism, 140 other countries recognise a Palestinian state and it has provided nothing. Finally the likelihood of a 2 state solution being the end game for Israel is not on the table, it is not going to happen, because Israel do not want it and they listen to nobody but the US. The truth is that nobody can define what peace will look like until the war ends and the war won’t end until Israel has achieved its military goals. That is the reality, whether we like it or not. | |||
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" For absolute clarity, the UK recognising a Palestinian state is meaningless act other than symbolism..." It is exactly as meaningful as issuing a gender recognition certificate. It means that we can all agree, very clearly (and strongly), on how someone or something may identify, regardless of facts. | |||
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"All this is just posturing anyway. The easiest way out of this situation is for Hamas to release the hostages and surrender. If that doesn't happen, Israel can justify going after them. this was never about the hostages for Bibi the baby butcher .... for him it is all about cheating justice by delaying court proceedings and staying out of gaol. The whole thing could have been avoided if Hamas didn't pull off that shit. Hamas can't do something like that and believe that and expect Israel to not come after them like this." Yes, not only that, the hamas official ghazi hamad said that "we will repeat the october 7 attack time and time again until israel is annihiliated, so in a way israel have choice than doing what they do too. | |||
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"Scroll back though your replies: "you show every sign of being an apologist for the Israeli government". "People like yourself who say nothing can be done should to be ashamed of yourselves and start advocating for change. You are part of the problem and history will not judge you kindly". Both of those comments are basically wrong, but they are what I have come to expect when I challenge the crazy notion that a 2 state solution will work, that is not being vague is it?" I didn't say you were an active supporter of the Israeli goverment. But you do seem to be an apologist for the Israeli government. You post a lot about I/P but I can't recall you ever criticising the IDF for slaughtering many thousands of children. Maybe I'm wrong but isn't your position always - ah, well nothing can be done and there's no point in trying - in fact it is foolish to even talk about trying? That's why I said history will not be kind to you. "For absolute clarity, the UK recognising a Palestinian state is meaningless act other than symbolism, 140 other countries recognise a Palestinian state and it has provided nothing. Finally the likelihood of a 2 state solution being the end game for Israel is not on the table, it is not going to happen, because Israel do not want it and they listen to nobody but the US." And as I keep saying countries like the UK, France, Canada, Australia etc belatedly joining the majority is beginning to tip the balance. And now that the majority of US citizens have an unfavourable opinion of Israel it's likely that there will be a lower limit to what the US administration can do in terms of future support. Although I'm not expecting the US to ever engage in trade or other sanctions and I expect they will still keep giving money to Israel so that they can continue to buy US weapons with US taxpayers' money. "The truth is that nobody can define what peace will look like until the war ends and the war won’t end until Israel has achieved its military goals. That is the reality, whether we like it or not." You seem to be looking at the situation from an extremely short-term perspective as if the conflict popped up out of the blue two years ago. Do you have any understanding of the history? | |||
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"All this is just posturing anyway. The easiest way out of this situation is for Hamas to release the hostages and surrender. If that doesn't happen, Israel can justify going after them. this was never about the hostages for Bibi the baby butcher .... for him it is all about cheating justice by delaying court proceedings and staying out of gaol. The whole thing could have been avoided if Hamas didn't pull off that shit. Hamas can't do something like that and believe that and expect Israel to not come after them like this.Yes, not only that, the hamas official ghazi hamad said that "we will repeat the october 7 attack time and time again until israel is annihiliated, so in a way israel have choice than doing what they do too." Exactly! This is the sequence of events that will happen if the Pro-palestine crowd get what they want: - Israel is hit by trade sanctions and threats by Western countries. They are forced to go back - Palestine builds up again. - Hamas starts attacking Israel again. - The best that the Western politicians can do is to issue a strongly worded condemnation which the Palestinians will give zero fucks about because they never cared about the Western countries anyway. Other Arab nations will support them. - The West will have Israeli blood in their hands. The ones who asked for all these will pretend like it's not their fault. Some might even enjoy the outcome. | |||
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"My original point was about aid. Trade and aid are two different things. People/politicians have different views on both. They might be easily convinced to stop giving aid. But it's hard to convince them to enforce trade sanctions, especially on an issue as complex as the Israel one." My argument was about the effect of trade sanctions. US aid to Israel is basically just a state subsidy for the US arms industry. What I was talking about is what would happen if those countries that recognise Palestine stopped trading with Israel. The effect would be a $100 billion plus black hole in the Israeli economy, Therefore Israel is very vulnerable to trade sanctions. "Barely good enough to stop aid, that too only if democrats win. But not good enough for trade sanctions." I wasn't talking about trade sanctions by the US but the unwillingness/impracticallity of the US giving sufficient funds to Israel to cover for comprehensive trade sanctions by other countries. There is zero chance of the US giving $100 billion a year to Israel just to keep its economy from collapsing. "You are the one avoiding the question. I am talking specifically about how China deals with Uyghurs. They pull many of them into "re-education camps" if they don't toe the party line. Would you stop asking for trade sanctions if Israel does the same with Palestinians? Because you seem to focused only on number of deaths." I condemn the terrible mistreatment of Uyghers and others by the Chinese government. I asked you how many Uyghers had been killed but predictably you avoided this challenge. Do I think "re-education" is as bad as killing tens of thousands of women and children, no. "Because most gays don't come out as gays. Why would they do it if they know that they will be legally executed if they do so? It doesn't stop it from being equivalent to genocide." So you can't come up with a single example of a homosexual being executed for their sexuality in the past five years anywhere on the planet, but it's a genocide. Don't get me wrong I'm against both the death penalty and the prohibition of homosexuality. The idea of executing homosexuals is completely at odds with my wordview and I think the UK should sanction anyone executing people for their sexuality. "Which brings me to the original point - We have two groups who are in a vicious cycle of hate. You are against the stronger side just because they are stronger. We all know that if Palestine gets more powerful, they would do the same, if not worse, to Israel. Palestine or Hamas do not give a fuck about Western views on this matter. Why must Israel? Why must the West force Israel's hands when they know that the opposite side wouldn't give a fuck about the West?" It's got absolutely nothing to do with who is stronger or weaker. I think Hamas are just as bad as the Israeli government. Both are far-right knuckle dragging irredentists who care little about the general population's well-being. | |||
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"Scroll back though your replies: "you show every sign of being an apologist for the Israeli government". "People like yourself who say nothing can be done should to be ashamed of yourselves and start advocating for change. You are part of the problem and history will not judge you kindly". Both of those comments are basically wrong, but they are what I have come to expect when I challenge the crazy notion that a 2 state solution will work, that is not being vague is it? I didn't say you were an active supporter of the Israeli goverment. But you do seem to be an apologist for the Israeli government. You post a lot about I/P but I can't recall you ever criticising the IDF for slaughtering many thousands of children. Maybe I'm wrong but isn't your position always - ah, well nothing can be done and there's no point in trying - in fact it is foolish to even talk about trying? That's why I said history will not be kind to you. For absolute clarity, the UK recognising a Palestinian state is meaningless act other than symbolism, 140 other countries recognise a Palestinian state and it has provided nothing. Finally the likelihood of a 2 state solution being the end game for Israel is not on the table, it is not going to happen, because Israel do not want it and they listen to nobody but the US. And as I keep saying countries like the UK, France, Canada, Australia etc belatedly joining the majority is beginning to tip the balance. And now that the majority of US citizens have an unfavourable opinion of Israel it's likely that there will be a lower limit to what the US administration can do in terms of future support. Although I'm not expecting the US to ever engage in trade or other sanctions and I expect they will still keep giving money to Israel so that they can continue to buy US weapons with US taxpayers' money. The truth is that nobody can define what peace will look like until the war ends and the war won’t end until Israel has achieved its military goals. That is the reality, whether we like it or not. You seem to be looking at the situation from an extremely short-term perspective as if the conflict popped up out of the blue two years ago. Do you have any understanding of the history? " Oh come on, stop with the silly comments 
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"Oh come on, stop with the silly comments" * K1, P1 * | |||
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" My argument was about the effect of trade sanctions. US aid to Israel is basically just a state subsidy for the US arms industry. What I was talking about is what would happen if those countries that recognise Palestine stopped trading with Israel. The effect would be a $100 billion plus black hole in the Israeli economy, Therefore Israel is very vulnerable to trade sanctions. " If trade sanctions are really enforced. The likelihood of that is much low for that because of you enforce trade sanctions for this, you will have to do it on so many other countries for the atrocities they commit - Like having death penalty for gays, how China treats the Uyghurs, Azerbaijan, etc. " I wasn't talking about trade sanctions by the US but the unwillingness/impracticallity of the US giving sufficient funds to Israel to cover for comprehensive trade sanctions by other countries. There is zero chance of the US giving $100 billion a year to Israel just to keep its economy from collapsing. " And Israel doesn't need that much. " I condemn the terrible mistreatment of Uyghers and others by the Chinese government. I asked you how many Uyghers had been killed but predictably you avoided this challenge. " The numbers are less plus it's hard to get any real information out of China. But do number of deaths make a difference? If it did, would you stop asking for trade sanctions if Israel used the same method that China did? " Do I think "re-education" is as bad as killing tens of thousands of women and children, no. " So you would stop asking for trade sanctions if Israel did it instead of going on a war? " So you can't come up with a single example of a homosexual being executed for their sexuality in the past five years anywhere on the planet, but it's a genocide. " From Amnesty intentional - "On 23 January, the criminal court in Dhamar in northern Yemen sentenced nine individuals to death – with seven sentenced to be executed by stoning, and two by crucifixion – while 23 others were handed prison sentences between six months and 10 years on charges including “homosexuality”, “spreading immorality”, and “immoral acts”." Also, if a government says that all people follow a specific religion will be punished by death and the people who are scared convert out of the religion or follow it in secret, is it not genocide just because there weren't enough people killed? " I think the UK should sanction anyone executing people for their sexuality. " Well it's been going on for decades now and none of the lefties were so serious about that. Yet when it comes to Israel, people seem to be so serious. Why such a special focus on one issue? " It's got absolutely nothing to do with who is stronger or weaker. I think Hamas are just as bad as the Israeli government. Both are far-right knuckle dragging irredentists who care little about the general population's well-being. " If you hold one side alone(Israel) in the war with zero control over the other side(Hamas), when the other side strikes back, you will have no way to protect them and you will have blood in your hands. | |||
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"The numbers are less plus it's hard to get any real information out of China. But do number of deaths make a difference? If it did, would you stop asking for trade sanctions if Israel used the same method that China did? [...] So you would stop asking for trade sanctions if Israel did it instead of going on a war?" I agree that there are probably terrible things going on in China that we don't know about but I don't think they could cover up the killing of 65,000 people. If we looked at it in proportional terms - the population of China (~1.4 billion) compared with the total population of Gaza, Israel and the West Bank (~14 million) then the Chinese government would need to have killed 6.5 million people in the last couple of years for something comparable to have happened. They certainly couldn't cover up 6.5 million people being killed. And yes the number of deaths do make a difference. Maybe not to you, but most people consider death to be pretty serious. You keep banging on about the re-education thing in China as if it's far far worse than being in the open-air prison that Gaza has been for decades. And it's not exactly Butlins in the West Bank. Both are wrong. But if Israel stopped butchering tens of thousands of people and allowed the Palestinians citizenship (either in their own state or as Israelis) then other forms of repression such as the wide-spread imprisonment without charge would probably fall just below the threshold of where I think we have an obligation to apply comprehensive sanctions. "From Amnesty intentional - "On 23 January, the criminal court in Dhamar in northern Yemen sentenced nine individuals to death – with seven sentenced to be executed by stoning, and two by crucifixion – while 23 others were handed prison sentences between six months and 10 years on charges including “homosexuality”, “spreading immorality”, and “immoral acts”." Also, if a government says that all people follow a specific religion will be punished by death and the people who are scared convert out of the religion or follow it in secret, is it not genocide just because there weren't enough people killed?" That's barabaric. Although I'm not sure if the sentences have been carried out as the bit you quoted was preceeded by... "The Huthi de facto authorities must urgently halt planned executions and end the persecution of people based on their real or perceived sexual orientation or gender identity, said Amnesty International, after two Huthi-run courts in Yemen sentenced more than 40 individuals either to death, flogging or prison over charges related to same-sex conduct." However, let's assume these poor souls were executed and there are other widespread atrocities happening. But the Houthis aren't a country and lobbying by the left or the right for trade sanctions would have zero effect because we don't trade with the Houthis. In fact under both Sunak and Starmer we've attacked them militarily. Dropping bombs on people tends to be several steps further along the line than merely not trading with them. "Well it's been going on for decades now and none of the lefties were so serious about that. Yet when it comes to Israel, people seem to be so serious. Why such a special focus on one issue?" Obviously what you are attempting to do is wheel out the old antisemitism whataboutry slur. It's getting a bit tired. Also your notion that the left don't care about the persecution of people for their sexual orientation or gender identity is laughable given the hatred that has been spewed from the right. "If you hold one side alone(Israel) in the war with zero control over the other side(Hamas), when the other side strikes back, you will have no way to protect them and you will have blood in your hands." Hamas are a proscribed terrorist organisation while we give military assistance to the IDF. Take your blindfold off. | |||
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" And yes the number of deaths do make a difference. Maybe not to you, but most people consider death to be pretty serious. " I do believe death is a terrible thing. But I also think that these "re-education camps" are as bad as death itself. And unlike you, I don't see human lives as numbers on spreadsheets, the way you did with your China comparison. By your argument, if India decides to kill off the sentinel tribes, it won't be a worthy of a trade sanction because, for someone who sees human lives as statistics, it's not a big deal in the bigger scheme of things. " You keep banging on about the re-education thing in China as if it's far far worse than being in the open-air prison that Gaza has been for decades. And it's not exactly Butlins in the West Bank. Both are wrong. " Then why don't you want to impose trade sanctions on China too? " But if Israel stopped butchering tens of thousands of people and allowed the Palestinians citizenship (either in their own state or as Israelis) then other forms of repression such as the wide-spread imprisonment without charge would probably fall just below the threshold of where I think we have an obligation to apply comprehensive sanctions. " A threshold you cooked up just so that you can justify treating Israel with different standards compared to the rest of the world. Anyone else could see that this threshold doesn't make any logical sense. " However, let's assume these poor souls were executed and there are other widespread atrocities happening. But the Houthis aren't a country and lobbying by the left or the right for trade sanctions would have zero effect because we don't trade with the Houthis. In fact under both Sunak and Starmer we've attacked them militarily. " Houthis still control most of Yemen. We attacked them because they attacked the ships. Not because they were genociding homosexuals. You are just doing ridiculous mental gymnastics here. If you think Yemen is not a great example, why not Saudi? They also executed some gays very recently. " Obviously what you are attempting to do is wheel out the old antisemitism whataboutry slur. It's getting a bit tired. " Asking for some ideological consistency is not whataboutery. " Also your notion that the left don't care about the persecution of people for their sexual orientation or gender identity is laughable given the hatred that has been spewed from the right. " If we go by actual behaviour of the left, it seems like they are just ideological frauds. Sure some people on the right aren't supportive of LGBTQ communities. But the left clearly aren't either. " Hamas are a proscribed terrorist organisation while we give military assistance to the IDF. " We are talking about trade sanctions here. Why do you want to punish Israel when you clearly know that the consequence of this would be that Hamas will strike them again later? If you have control over Hamas too, then you can argue that you are can get both sides to be peaceful. But as things stand, you are just trying to tie hands of one side so that the other side will have an opportunity to beat them up. | |||
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"I do believe death is a terrible thing. But I also think that these "re-education camps" are as bad as death itself." Fair enough if you personally rate death and imprisonment as equal. "And unlike you, I don't see human lives as numbers on spreadsheets, the way you did with your China comparison. By your argument, if India decides to kill off the sentinel tribes, it won't be a worthy of a trade sanction because, for someone who sees human lives as statistics, it's not a big deal in the bigger scheme of things." Which is better one person being murdered or a thousand? The notion that numbers don't matter is nonsense. I'm beginning to think you've gone so far down the existentialist rabbit hole that it's pointless debating with you. I've not argued that trade is worth more than human life. That's just another one of your strawmen. "Then why don't you want to impose trade sanctions on China too?" Both China and Israel lock thousands of people up without charge or due process, possiby just because they are Muslims who won't bend the knee. This is wrong. But Israel is also killing large numbers of innocent women and children and denying millions of people citizenship rights. I'm explained this several times now. I'm not going to bother explaining it again. "A threshold you cooked up just so that you can justify treating Israel with different standards compared to the rest of the world. Anyone else could see that this threshold doesn't make any logical sense." No, it's simply my personal judgement. I disapprove of all kinds of things but the situation in Gaza and the West Bank crosses a threshold where I feel the need to voice my opinion on the matter. My opinion has almost no impact of course but I can't just not participate when discussions like this come up. "Houthis still control most of Yemen. We attacked them because they attacked the ships. Not because they were genociding homosexuals. You are just doing ridiculous mental gymnastics here. If you think Yemen is not a great example, why not Saudi? They also executed some gays very recently." It's not mental gymnastics. Your initial point was that we should have trade sanctions against any country that executes people for their sexual orientation. I broadly agree with this and asked you for examples in the last five years where this has happened. I don't think there is a genocide happening against gays but am open to evidence that might support this proposition. "Asking for some ideological consistency is not whataboutery." So far you are saying that the treatment of gays is a genocide and the imprisonment of Uyghurs is equivilant to killing them. Yet you seem to think it's antisemitic to critcise the butchering of thousands of women and children, imprisonment without charge and the denial of basic human rights to millions. "If we go by actual behaviour of the left, it seems like they are just ideological frauds. Sure some people on the right aren't supportive of LGBTQ communities. But the left clearly aren't either." Your opinon seems to be that anyone on the left is intrinsically dishonest. I doubt any rational argument will shift that idea from your mind. "We are talking about trade sanctions here. Why do you want to punish Israel when you clearly know that the consequence of this would be that Hamas will strike them again later? If you have control over Hamas too, then you can argue that you are can get both sides to be peaceful. But as things stand, you are just trying to tie hands of one side so that the other side will have an opportunity to beat them up." Because being a former zionist I haved followed the politics of the region in great detail for decades and believe there is still a path forward to peace where Hamas are completely sidelined. One simple step towards lasting peace would be for Israel to release Marwan Barghouti. | |||
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"Fck Palestinie and every ine in it" You absolute evil vile human. | |||
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" Which is better one person being murdered or a thousand? " We aren't talking about which is better in a global utilitarian sense but about who is worth punishing. Two countries decide to commit genocide targeting two different groups of people. Just because one of the target groups has a smaller number, does it make the country targeting that group better than the country targeting other group? Both countries committed genocide. " I've not argued that trade is worth more than human life. That's just another one of your strawmen. " Ironic because this statement itself is a strawman. I never said you argued that trade is worth more. I am criticising your idea that the people committing genocides can be compared depending on the size of the people they are targeting. " Both China and Israel lock thousands of people up without charge or due process, possiby just because they are Muslims who won't bend the knee. This is wrong. But Israel is also killing large numbers of innocent women and children and denying millions of people citizenship rights. I'm explained this several times now. I'm not going to bother explaining it again. " I already asked a question about this, for which you haven't responded. If Israel stops killing the Palestinians today and did exactly what China did as mentioned in this article, will you stop asking for trade sanctions? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-59595952 - Millions detained in re-education camps - Birth control for women " No, it's simply my personal judgement. I disapprove of all kinds of things but the situation in Gaza and the West Bank crosses a threshold where I feel the need to voice my opinion on the matter. My opinion has almost no impact of course but I can't just not participate when discussions like this come up. " As long as you understand that, it's all good. " It's not mental gymnastics. Your initial point was that we should have trade sanctions against any country that executes people for their sexual orientation. I broadly agree with this and asked you for examples in the last five years where this has happened. I don't think there is a genocide happening against gays but am open to evidence that might support this proposition. " A country that literally has death penalty laws for being homosexuals isn't really genocide of gays? And this is not mental gymnastics? 😂 Nice joke. Just because the gays have the basic common sense to not come out as gays in countries with death penalty for them, it doesn't mean the countries don't have a genocidal intent. Saudi did mass beheadings in 2019 in which 5 of them were killed for homosexuality. Why exactly would anyone come out as homosexual if that's the case? " So far you are saying that the treatment of gays is a genocide and the imprisonment of Uyghurs is equivilant to killing them. Yet you seem to think it's antisemitic to critcise the butchering of thousands of women and children, imprisonment without charge and the denial of basic human rights to millions. " When did I say it's antisemitic? Yet another strawman argument from you. " Your opinon seems to be that anyone on the left is intrinsically dishonest. I doubt any rational argument will shift that idea from your mind. " I have shown enough evidences to show how the left would shut their mouths about LGBTQ issues or women's rights depending on who the perpetrators are. You are the one who is struggling to make a rational argument. " Because being a former zionist I haved followed the politics of the region in great detail for decades and believe there is still a path forward to peace where Hamas are completely sidelined. One simple step towards lasting peace would be for Israel to release Marwan Barghouti." But you know that you can't control Hamas and unless you can control Hamas, there is no peace. That "single step" is only a step towards making Israel on the receiving end of the violence. It's not a step towards peace. | |||
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"We aren't talking about which is better in a global utilitarian sense but about who is worth punishing. Two countries decide to commit genocide targeting two different groups of people. Just because one of the target groups has a smaller number, does it make the country targeting that group better than the country targeting other group? Both countries committed genocide." I see no point in endlessly repeating points I've already made about the differences, but from this it seems that you think Israel is committing genocide. "Ironic because this statement itself is a strawman. I never said you argued that trade is worth more" . I was arguing against your statement... "By your argument, if India decides to kill off the sentinel tribes, it won't be a worthy of a trade sanction because, for someone who sees human lives as statistics, it's not a big deal in the bigger scheme of things.". "I am criticising your idea that the people committing genocides can be compared depending on the size of the people they are targeting." I haven't made this argument. "I already asked a question about this, for which you haven't responded. If Israel stops killing the Palestinians today and did exactly what China did as mentioned in this article, will you stop asking for trade sanctions? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-59595952 - Millions detained in re-education camps - Birth control for women" I have responded several times just perhaps not in the fashion you want me to adopt. Also it's not clear to me that Israel, China or any other countries that you are accusing of committing genocide have. It's a very confused term that I prefer not to use because the definition is so poorly framed as a result of arguments from various parties not wanting their own activity to be classified as genocide. "A country that literally has death penalty laws for being homosexuals isn't really genocide of gays? And this is not mental gymnastics? 😂 Nice joke. Just because the gays have the basic common sense to not come out as gays in countries with death penalty for them, it doesn't mean the countries don't have a genocidal intent. Saudi did mass beheadings in 2019 in which 5 of them were killed for homosexuality. Why exactly would anyone come out as homosexual if that's the case?" See above. Also in some authoritarian states open criticism of the leadership results in death even though most people might privately be very critical. Saying that the leadership in such a situation is genocidal wouldn't be a usefully description. "When did I say it's antisemitic? Yet another strawman argument from you." I said "Obviously what you are attempting to do is wheel out the old antisemitism whataboutry slur. It's getting a bit tired." All you said in response was "Asking for some ideological consistency is not whataboutery." This wasn't a denial of the obvious suggestion of an antisemitic motive. "I have shown enough evidences to show how the left would shut their mouths about LGBTQ issues or women's rights depending on who the perpetrators are. You are the one who is struggling to make a rational argument." Only in your own imagination. Your argument is a curious one. It seems to be that you agree with left-wing ideas but just think that left-wingers are frauds. This would make them right-wingers pretending to be left-wing. And if you agree with left-wing ideas then you are a left-winger yet by your own reasoning you must be a fraud and really be a right-winger pretending to believe in left-wing ideas. "But you know that you can't control Hamas and unless you can control Hamas, there is no peace. That "single step" is only a step towards making Israel on the receiving end of the violence. It's not a step towards peace." Hamas never had much real power, that why they increasingly turned to terror to compensate. They are now a depleted and largely irrelevant force. Barghouti would give the Palestinans fresh leadership and be someone who could under a two-state agreement deliver lasting peace and justice for both Palestinians and Israelis. That's why he's locked up in prison. | |||
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"W I see no point in endlessly repeating points I've already made about the differences, but from this it seems that you think Israel is committing genocide. " No, I used an example to show how lame it is to decide whom to punish depending on number of people. " "By your argument, if India decides to kill off the sentinel tribes, it won't be a worthy of a trade sanction because, for someone who sees human lives as statistics, it's not a big deal in the bigger scheme of things.". " My point still stands. You are looking at human lives as numbers instead of looking at the intent of people doing the killing to decide who is worse. I never said trade is worth more. I was talking about the worthiness of a country to receive trade sanctions. " I have responded several times just perhaps not in the fashion you want me to adopt. " No, you only avoided this question. Never answered it. " See above. " We can avoid using the term genocide. But it is clear that these countries have shown their intent to kill all the gays literally through their laws. What more excuse do you need to see that these countries are somehow better? " Also in some authoritarian states open criticism of the leadership results in death even though most people might privately be very critical. Saying that the leadership in such a situation is genocidal wouldn't be a usefully description. " You are trying to turn this into an argument of semantics now. " This wasn't a denial of the obvious suggestion of an antisemitic motive. " There was no "obvious suggestion of antisemitic motive". It's a strawman you cooked up. " Your argument is a curious one. It seems to be that you agree with left-wing ideas but just think that left-wingers are frauds. " I believe in personal liberty that doesn't physically violate others. It's far away from left wing ideas. Left wingers pretend to adapt these ideas when they want and throw them away when they don't. " Hamas never had much real power, that why they increasingly turned to terror to compensate. They are now a depleted and largely irrelevant force. " So Israel's attacks have indeed resulted in Hamas being weakened? | |||
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"This has reached the stage where I see little point in continuing, unless you raise some new ideas. I've made my case that the killing of tens of thousands of civilians, the imprisonment of people without charge and the outright denial of citizenship rights to five million Palestinians is sufficient to trigger comprehensive sanctions. Anyone who still agrees with your position isn't going to be persuaded by any further argument. As you seem to believe that Amnesty International are a credible source I will end by quoting their overview... "Israel committed genocide in Gaza, including by causing some of the highest known death tolls among children, journalists, and health and humanitarian workers of any recent conflict in the world, and deliberately inflicting on Palestinians conditions calculated to bring about their physical destruction. Armed conflict with Lebanon caused civilian deaths and mass displacement. Israel committed the crime of apartheid, including through the forcible transfer and displacement of Palestinians both in Israel and in the Occupied Palestinian Territory. State-backed violent settlers enjoyed impunity while conscientious objectors were imprisoned. Hundreds of Palestinians were killed in militarized arrest raids in the occupied West Bank. Thousands of Palestinians were subjected to arbitrary detention and to ill-treatment, amounting to torture in many cases. The International Court of Justice’s instructions to avert genocide and end illegal occupation were ignored. Freedom of expression and peaceful assembly came under attack." " China: - Hundreds of thousands of Muslim minority men and women subjected to mass internment and torture Testimonies from former detainees included in a new report launched on Thursday allege the use of “tiger chairs” – steel chairs with leg irons and handcuffs that restrain the body in painful positions – on detainees during police interrogations. The report also claims that beatings, sleep deprivation and overcrowding are commonplace in police stations. Uyghur Muslims, often arrested for what appeared to be lawful conduct, also reported being hooded and shackled during interrogation and transfer. In the camps detainees had no privacy or autonomy and faced harsh punishments for trivial disobedience, claims the report. Amnesty says it learned of one case in which a detainee is believed to have died as a result of being restrained in a tiger chair, in front of his cellmates, for 72 hours. If you think Israel deserves punishment for what they do, but China and countries which openly have death penalty for gays don't, there is no point in me arguing with you either. | |||
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"It's kind of trivial but I'm interested in clarification on your view. Do you want trade sanctions against China for the treatment of Uyghurs and against those countries that have death penalties for homosexuality?" If we are doing trade sanctions, we have to do it for everyone. We all know that doing it will crippled UK more than anyone else. So I would rather not do it. Doing it just for one country just because the problem there gets the most coverage looks like posturing more than anything else. | |||
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"If we are doing trade sanctions, we have to do it for everyone. We all know that doing it will crippled UK more than anyone else. So I would rather not do it. Doing it just for one country just because the problem there gets the most coverage looks like posturing more than anything else." That's a rather strange answer. I'm trying to parse it. If you're against all sanctions because you think they have no effect at all then fair enough. Or are you against all trade sanctions because of the effect on the UK economy? In which case you don't think the issues about Uyghurs and homosexuals are worth the financial cost. Or ignoring the cost, would you only want sanctions against China and those countries that have death penalties for homosexuality if there are were also sanctions against Israel? Can you see how weird this argument is? | |||
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"If we are doing trade sanctions, we have to do it for everyone. We all know that doing it will crippled UK more than anyone else. So I would rather not do it. Doing it just for one country just because the problem there gets the most coverage looks like posturing more than anything else. That's a rather strange answer. I'm trying to parse it. If you're against all sanctions because you think they have no effect at all then fair enough. Or are you against all trade sanctions because of the effect on the UK economy? In which case you don't think the issues about Uyghurs and homosexuals are worth the financial cost. Or ignoring the cost, would you only want sanctions against China and those countries that have death penalties for homosexuality if there are were also sanctions against Israel? Can you see how weird this argument is?" I don't see what's weird with it. If we are going to advertise your moral views to the rest of the world through sanctions, you need to be consistent about it. Picking just one country to impose trade sanctions while turning blind eye towards other countries which commit a lot of atrocities is what's weird. Especially picking Israel in this situation when pretty much everyone knows that Hamas will strike them again if given a chance makes it an outright dangerous. My view is that if we truly believe that our moral views should be forcefully imposed on rest of the world, we need to be consistent about it and sanction everyone. But that would cripple UK. Given the cost to UK in doing widespread sanctions, I would rather not impose these sanctions at all, unless UK is under threat, like the case with Russia. | |||
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"Keir Starmer set to announce UK recognition of Palestine state today. Should we then help the democratically elected Hamas government to kick the invaders out of Palestine and take control of aid and food supplies to the 2 million displaced population. " Democratically... joker. When was their last election? | |||
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"I don't see what's weird with it. If we are going to advertise your moral views to the rest of the world through sanctions, you need to be consistent about it." If you think that sanctions are about virtue signalling rather than trying to change behaviour then you'd be against all sanctions. Which would be fair enough, if that's your view. "Picking just one country to impose trade sanctions while turning blind eye towards other countries which commit a lot of atrocities is what's weird." So to be intellectually consistent you'd be against sanctions on China and countries that have death penalties for homosexuality if Israel wasn't also sanctioned. "Especially picking Israel in this situation when pretty much everyone knows that Hamas will strike them again if given a chance makes it an outright dangerous." So what it is really about is that you don't think Israel should be sanctioned. "My view is that if we truly believe that our moral views should be forcefully imposed on rest of the world, we need to be consistent about it and sanction everyone. But that would cripple UK. Given the cost to UK in doing widespread sanctions, I would rather not impose these sanctions at all, unless UK is under threat, like the case with Russia." It looks like your arguments about the imposition of morality and the burden of costs and about China and other countries behaviour are just bluster designed to give some kind of cover for the fact that you are completely comfortable with the atrocities committed by Israel and you don't want it to be sanctioned. Just be honest. | |||
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" If you think that sanctions are about virtue signalling rather than trying to change behaviour then you'd be against all sanctions. Which would be fair enough, if that's your view. " Yes, that's what I concluded in the post. I am against all sanctions. " So to be intellectually consistent you'd be against sanctions on China and countries that have death penalties for homosexuality if Israel wasn't also sanctioned. " Yes " So what it is really about is that you don't think Israel should be sanctioned. " As I explained multiple times, I am against all sanctions. It's especially the case with Israel because, when Hamas strikes back at Israel, you will have Israeli blood in your hands. Are you willing to take that responsibility? " It looks like your arguments about the imposition of morality and the burden of costs and about China and other countries behaviour are just bluster designed to give some kind of cover for the fact that you are completely comfortable with the atrocities committed by Israel and you don't want it to be sanctioned. Just be honest. " It looks like you completely ignoring other countries and focusing on Israel is just bluster designer to cover for the fact that you are completely comfortable with the atrocities committed by China and some middle eastern countries. Just be honest. | |||
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"David Lammy has hinted that the UK government could U-turn to allow 34 Palestinian scholars to bring their children to the UK. 75% is Palestinians apparently supported the attacks on 7 October 2023. Only 3 per cent of Israeli society think their government has gone too far murdering 600, 000 defenceless people . " | |||
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"Great, so we have finally arrived at some kind of logical conclusion. You are simply against all sanctions. It would have been useful if you had made this clearer earlier on rather than presenting all kinds of bogus arguments. You might want to visit various pages on gov.uk to see all the sanctions that you are against. " I made my views clear about that. You are the one who couldn't read properly. I was ok with sanction against Russia as it was not for moral reasons but because Russia was a threat to UK itself. As you have completely dodged all the other questions I pointed asked, it's clear that you don't give a fuck about Uyghurs or the gays in the middle eastern countries or if Israelis die in the hands of Hamas. Good to know that | |||
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"He should get his own country sorted first instead of meddling in others affairs" Hear hear. It's ironic that we're now champion of Palestinian Independence while trying to keep all of the 4 home nations in a single decrepit Kingdom. | |||
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"I made my views clear about that. You are the one who couldn't read properly. I was ok with sanction against Russia as it was not for moral reasons but because Russia was a threat to UK itself. As you have completely dodged all the other questions I pointed asked, it's clear that you don't give a fuck about Uyghurs or the gays in the middle eastern countries or if Israelis die in the hands of Hamas. Good to know that " I find your whole thing against morality strange. This thread is nearly full but maybe another time we can discuss the problematic interaction between Nietzschean ideas and the concept of law. I haven't dodged your questions. If the Israel government wasn't killing tens of thousands of civilians and wasn't set on the permanant denial of citizinship rights to millions then I wouldn't be advocating for comprehensive sanctions. They'd still be imprisoning Palestinians without due process just like the Chinese authorities do to Muslims but it would fall below my personal threshold for an obligation to sanction. Likewise on gays (I am myself bisexual by the way), while I strongly condemn those countries that have death penalties for homosexuality, it isn't sufficently problematic to be above the threshold. If people were being routinely executed for homosexuality in say Saudi Arabia then I would be calling for sanctions against them. I realise this seems to some like a cold calculus but t's a calculation that is required else we would have sanctions against practically everywhere. I disaprove of all kinds of things - for instance the gun laws and negative social attitudes towards non-whites, women and sexual minorities in the US, but these issues aren't above a threshold were I think we are obligated to use sanctions against the US. People will no doubt disagree with my personal thresholds for sanctions but beyond explicit trade agreements you can't force a country to trade with another. The UK and others should be free to trade or not based on their own judgements of the implications of that trade. And I should be free to advocate based on my judgements. Finally I support a two-state agreement not because I am against Israelis but because I believe it is in their best interests for there to be justice in the region as this seems to be the only way to achieve lasting peace. | |||
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" I haven't dodged your questions. If the Israel government wasn't killing tens of thousands of civilians and wasn't set on the permanant denial of citizinship rights to millions then I wouldn't be advocating for comprehensive sanctions. They'd still be imprisoning Palestinians without due process just like the Chinese authorities do to Muslims but it would fall below my personal threshold for an obligation to sanction. " So if Israel did exactly the same thing as China did - Imprisoning the Palestinians and torturing them using methods like the Tiger chair, you wouldn't ask for trade sanctions? " Likewise on gays (I am myself bisexual by the way), while I strongly condemn those countries that have death penalties for homosexuality, it isn't sufficently problematic to be above the threshold. If people were being routinely executed for homosexuality in say Saudi Arabia then I would be calling for sanctions against them. I realise this seems to some like a cold calculus but t's a calculation that is required else we would have sanctions against practically everywhere. " That's because gays don't come out as gays. Israel covers up Palestine and says that people who practice Islam anymore will face death penalty and all the Palestinians give up their religion or do it only in secret, thereby reducing the number of executions, you wouldn't ask for trade sanctions? " The UK and others should be free to trade or not based on their own judgements of the implications of that trade. And I should be free to advocate based on my judgements. " You are advocating for a collective decision on through the government. Why should someone else in the country who wants to trade with Israel pay the price for some moral thresholds you cooked up? " Finally I support a two-state agreement not because I am against Israelis but because I believe it is in their best interests for there to be justice in the region as this seems to be the only way to achieve lasting peace. " There is no point in forming a two state of the groups are still going to attack each other. Hence, it's not really a solution. And you also haven't answered this - If Israel is forced through trade sanctions, Hamas regroups and hits them back, will you take responsibility for the death of Israelis? If that happens, there will be blood on your hands. | |||
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"All this is just posturing anyway. The easiest way out of this situation is for Hamas to release the hostages and surrender. If that doesn't happen, Israel can justify going after them. this was never about the hostages for Bibi the baby butcher .... for him it is all about cheating justice by delaying court proceedings and staying out of gaol. The whole thing could have been avoided if Hamas didn't pull off that shit. Hamas can't do something like that and believe that and expect Israel to not come after them like this.Yes, not only that, the hamas official ghazi hamad said that "we will repeat the october 7 attack time and time again until israel is annihiliated, so in a way israel have choice than doing what they do too. Exactly! This is the sequence of events that will happen if the Pro-palestine crowd get what they want: - Israel is hit by trade sanctions and threats by Western countries. They are forced to go back - Palestine builds up again. - Hamas starts attacking Israel again. - The best that the Western politicians can do is to issue a strongly worded condemnation which the Palestinians will give zero fucks about because they never cared about the Western countries anyway. Other Arab nations will support them. - The West will have Israeli blood in their hands. The ones who asked for all these will pretend like it's not their fault. Some might even enjoy the outcome." Yes, the easiest way is for hamas to release the hostages, otherwise it will become a vicious cycle back and forth, some say israel can have total control of gaza within 2 months too. | |||
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"So if Israel did exactly the same thing as China did - Imprisoning the Palestinians and torturing them using methods like the Tiger chair, you wouldn't ask for trade sanctions?" Neither would you. "That's because gays don't come out as gays. Israel covers up Palestine and says that people who practice Islam anymore will face death penalty and all the Palestinians give up their religion or do it only in secret, thereby reducing the number of executions, you wouldn't ask for trade sanctions?" Neither would you. "You are advocating for a collective decision on through the government. Why should someone else in the country who wants to trade with Israel pay the price for some moral thresholds you cooked up?" I'm not in charge of the country. I'm making an argument on a swingers website. "There is no point in forming a two state of the groups are still going to attack each other. Hence, it's not really a solution. And you also haven't answered this - If Israel is forced through trade sanctions, Hamas regroups and hits them back, will you take responsibility for the death of Israelis? If that happens, there will be blood on your hands." By that logic you have the blood of 18,000 children on your hands. | |||
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" Neither would you. " That's known. You have dodged the question. " Neither would you. " That's known. You have dodged the question. " I'm not in charge of the country. I'm making an argument on a swingers website. " You are making an argument for trade sanctions imposed through government. " By that logic you have the blood of 18,000 children on your hands. " I want non-interference. Why would I be responsible if I don't even want to interfere? If non-interference somehow makes one responsible, every person would be responsible for every atrocity that happens around the world. | |||
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