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"Sounds good. We’ve had years of economic stagnation and it’s not likely to change under the Labour dunces. We can either stick with the proven failures or try something new." This how the voting will go for sure Labours head in the sand, I read the right to buy flipper deputy PM / housing minister just bought her third home too Labour have taken voters for cunts and the voters will repay them in four years time. | |||
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"Bring back the inquisition whilst we are at it and witch dunking. "A return to feudal land ownership would also enthuse the Reform voter base. | |||
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"Reform will sort it all out in 4 years time, there will be no recognition of the mess we're in now, countries a bloody mess. Mr F. " Would you care to let us in to the secret ? They don't have any fiscal strategy | |||
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"Reform will sort it all out in 4 years time, there will be no recognition of the mess we're in now, countries a bloody mess. Mr F. Would you care to let us in to the secret ? They don't have any fiscal strategy " Abracadabra political sound bites.. Brexit leave campaign all over again.. | |||
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"Reform will sort it all out in 4 years time, there will be no recognition of the mess we're in now, countries a bloody mess. Mr F. Would you care to let us in to the secret ? They don't have any fiscal strategy " Faux CV Reeves couldn’t tie farages shoe laces. | |||
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"Bring back the inquisition whilst we are at it and witch dunking.
A return to feudal land ownership would also enthuse the Reform voter base."Really? Isn’t it Leftists who are keen on the State having an interest in everyone’s property and being able to seize it on sale or death? | |||
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"Bring back the inquisition whilst we are at it and witch dunking.
A return to feudal land ownership would also enthuse the Reform voter base.
Really? Isn’t it Leftists who are keen on the State having an interest in everyone’s property and being able to seize it on sale or death?"So maybe you'll vote for a leftist? | |||
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"Reform UK has just suggested it would be prepared to deport 600,000 migrants over five years if it won power at the next election Guaranteed vote winner. " Definitely. Reform voters would have no concept of the impact of this kind of thing. | |||
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"Reform will sort it all out in 4 years time, there will be no recognition of the mess we're in now, countries a bloody mess. Mr F. Would you care to let us in to the secret ? They don't have any fiscal strategy Faux CV Reeves couldn’t tie farages shoe laces. " I doubt Farage could tie his own shoe laces | |||
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"Reform UK has just suggested it would be prepared to deport 600,000 migrants over five years if it won power at the next election Guaranteed vote winner. Definitely. Reform voters would have no concept of the impact of this kind of thing. "Presumably all these doctors and engineers will have to get jobs in the countries they are deported to. | |||
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"Reform will sort it all out in 4 years time, there will be no recognition of the mess we're in now, countries a bloody mess. Mr F. Would you care to let us in to the secret ? They don't have any fiscal strategy Abracadabra political sound bites.. Brexit leave campaign all over again.." Reform will have to show people they can manage things financially…. Do you see what a mess they are making of Leicestershire county council They are making a similar mess of Durham county council as well It’s a one policy party.. and the “blame everything on immigrants” excuse will wear thin quickly | |||
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"Reform UK has just suggested it would be prepared to deport 600,000 migrants over five years if it won power at the next election Guaranteed vote winner. Definitely. Reform voters would have no concept of the impact of this kind of thing.
Presumably all these doctors and engineers will have to get jobs in the countries they are deported to. "For sure. | |||
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"Reform will sort it all out in 4 years time, there will be no recognition of the mess we're in now, countries a bloody mess. Mr F. Would you care to let us in to the secret ? They don't have any fiscal strategy Abracadabra political sound bites.. Brexit leave campaign all over again.. Reform will have to show people they can manage things financially…. Do you see what a mess they are making of Leicestershire county council They are making a similar mess of Durham county council as well It’s a one policy party.. and the “blame everything on immigrants” excuse will wear thin quickly " Have you seen: The mess the Tories made of the country? The mess the LibDems made of the country? The mess the Greens have made of every council they have been involved in? The mess Labour is making of the country? | |||
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"Reform will sort it all out in 4 years time, there will be no recognition of the mess we're in now, countries a bloody mess. Mr F. Would you care to let us in to the secret ? They don't have any fiscal strategy Abracadabra political sound bites.. Brexit leave campaign all over again.. Reform will have to show people they can manage things financially…. Do you see what a mess they are making of Leicestershire county council They are making a similar mess of Durham county council as well It’s a one policy party.. and the “blame everything on immigrants” excuse will wear thin quickly Have you seen: The mess the Tories made of the country? The mess the LibDems made of the country? The mess the Greens have made of every council they have been involved in? The mess Labour is making of the country?" And Reform want to exaggerate every mess times 1000. | |||
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"Reform will sort it all out in 4 years time, there will be no recognition of the mess we're in now, countries a bloody mess. Mr F. Would you care to let us in to the secret ? They don't have any fiscal strategy Abracadabra political sound bites.. Brexit leave campaign all over again.. Reform will have to show people they can manage things financially…. Do you see what a mess they are making of Leicestershire county council They are making a similar mess of Durham county council as well It’s a one policy party.. and the “blame everything on immigrants” excuse will wear thin quickly " After labours attack on pensioners, farmers and the disabled I don’t think reform will have to convince anybody of anything. And immigration another convenient target. All own goals for Labour. | |||
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" After labours attack on pensioners, farmers and the disabled I don’t think reform will have to convince anybody of anything. And immigration another convenient target. All own goals for Labour. " And what will reform do ? Just print more money ? The "attack" on pensioners was well discussed, those that would have "needed" the fuel allowance would still have got it. The "disabled" benefits scam needs addressing to ensure sufficient support is there for those who GENUINELY need help. Farmers I agree about inheritance tax, but it was Nigel and Boris that promised farmers they would be better off out of the EU and those pesky EU grants would be replaced with much more generous offers. Now, where were we ? | |||
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"Reform will sort it all out in 4 years time, there will be no recognition of the mess we're in now, countries a bloody mess. Mr F. Would you care to let us in to the secret ? They don't have any fiscal strategy Abracadabra political sound bites.. Brexit leave campaign all over again.. Reform will have to show people they can manage things financially…. Do you see what a mess they are making of Leicestershire county council They are making a similar mess of Durham county council as well It’s a one policy party.. and the “blame everything on immigrants” excuse will wear thin quickly " They are out of their depth.. | |||
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" After labours attack on pensioners, farmers and the disabled I don’t think reform will have to convince anybody of anything. And immigration another convenient target. All own goals for Labour. And what will reform do ? Just print more money ? The "attack" on pensioners was well discussed, those that would have "needed" the fuel allowance would still have got it. The "disabled" benefits scam needs addressing to ensure sufficient support is there for those who GENUINELY need help. Farmers I agree about inheritance tax, but it was Nigel and Boris that promised farmers they would be better off out of the EU and those pesky EU grants would be replaced with much more generous offers. Now, where were we ?" Starmers record: Fishing = sold down the river. Farmers = Screwed them over. Pensioners = R0bbed. Disabled = R0bbed. National security = In turmoil. Free speech = Gone. Safety of women and girls = Gone. National identity = Gone. And don't even start me on the Chagos Island deal. Absolute scumbag of a prime minister and party, the rest are no better either so you wonder why the majority are now on the side of Reform. Mr F. | |||
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" After labours attack on pensioners, farmers and the disabled I don’t think reform will have to convince anybody of anything. And immigration another convenient target. All own goals for Labour. And what will reform do ? Just print more money ? The "attack" on pensioners was well discussed, those that would have "needed" the fuel allowance would still have got it. The "disabled" benefits scam needs addressing to ensure sufficient support is there for those who GENUINELY need help. Farmers I agree about inheritance tax, but it was Nigel and Boris that promised farmers they would be better off out of the EU and those pesky EU grants would be replaced with much more generous offers. Now, where were we ? Starmers record: Fishing = sold down the river. Farmers = Screwed them over. Pensioners = R0bbed. Disabled = R0bbed. National security = In turmoil. Free speech = Gone. Safety of women and girls = Gone. National identity = Gone. And don't even start me on the Chagos Island deal. Absolute scumbag of a prime minister and party, the rest are no better either so you wonder why the majority are now on the side of Reform. Mr F. " Absolute rubbish | |||
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" After labours attack on pensioners, farmers and the disabled I don’t think reform will have to convince anybody of anything. And immigration another convenient target. All own goals for Labour. And what will reform do ? Just print more money ? The "attack" on pensioners was well discussed, those that would have "needed" the fuel allowance would still have got it. The "disabled" benefits scam needs addressing to ensure sufficient support is there for those who GENUINELY need help. Farmers I agree about inheritance tax, but it was Nigel and Boris that promised farmers they would be better off out of the EU and those pesky EU grants would be replaced with much more generous offers. Now, where were we ? Starmers record: Fishing = sold down the river. Farmers = Screwed them over. Pensioners = R0bbed. Disabled = R0bbed. National security = In turmoil. Free speech = Gone. Safety of women and girls = Gone. National identity = Gone. And don't even start me on the Chagos Island deal. Absolute scumbag of a prime minister and party, the rest are no better either so you wonder why the majority are now on the side of Reform. Mr F. " This is exactly the kind of rhubarb Reform voters believe (I assume you're poking fun). Absolutely no interest in actually taking the time to find out what's happening in the country. I do have a vain hope that enough of the electorate are engaged enough and switched on enough to do even five minutes research before voting. As we found out with Brexit, that hope maybe in vain. | |||
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"Love them or loathe them you cannot deny that Reform are setting the political agenda. The fact that everyone else is scrambling to find a response to announcements like this shows they are currently the power centre. For a party of four MPs that is pretty incredible. I don’t know if this Reform surge will actually last (it is beyond ballsy to put out positions with almost four years until the next election) but Labour are very likely to get whipsawwed one way and then the other over whatever issue Farage et al decide to push on next. You have to assume that Reform are going to stake out all the positions that would have a viable chance of working but are not currently being touched because they are politically toxic to so many and thus leave the other parties to try and find a solution from positions that just are not credible (but that are currently politically acceptable). They seem to be setting everyone else up for failure or make them open to accusations of “stealing” Reform “proposals” which will only make those “proposals” seem more mainstream over time. As an exercise in shifting political opinion this is going to be interesting to watch." As with the trump campaign ( how's that working out by the way ) there are external influences taking place over social media to affect the thinking of the simple minded people they can control to support reform. You saw it in the run up to Brexit You saw it in the run up to the US elections You're seeing it now. | |||
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"The interest and noise Reform creates certainly puts Farage in the driving seat. I would not be surprised if Farage doesn't want to form a government, much easier to influence from within. He can broker a deal with either Labour or the Conservatives closer to the next GE that gives him what he wants. The blueprint is tried and tested." Interesting, would any of the other parties want to form a coalition with Reform? Tories would make the most sense as a lot of Reform are ex Tories. And the two parties stand for the same thing, and use similar tactics. " I have said this many times, he is a shrewd strategist, he runs rings around his peers. " I mean he's playing the easy side. The electorate are primed for easy solutions to complex problems. And lap up the anti-immigrant nonsense. If he were to actually try to come up with a sensible strategy, he'd be dead in the water. | |||
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"The interest and noise Reform creates certainly puts Farage in the driving seat. I would not be surprised if Farage doesn't want to form a government, much easier to influence from within. He can broker a deal with either Labour or the Conservatives closer to the next GE that gives him what he wants. The blueprint is tried and tested. I have said this many times, he is a shrewd strategist, he runs rings around his peers. " He appears to be trying to mimic his hero trump Trump is getting away with being an international bully as the US market is pretty huge. Imagine Fag packet telling the world it's our way or no way. I can hear the "fuck off" already | |||
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"As an exercise in shifting political opinion this is going to be interesting to watch. As with the trump campaign ( how's that working out by the way ) there are external influences taking place over social media to affect the thinking of the simple minded people they can control to support reform. You saw it in the run up to Brexit You saw it in the run up to the US elections You're seeing it now. " I think this is a massively dangerous view. Under estimating your opponent is the one strategy that is pretty much guaranteed to lead to disappointment. The Democrats thought that only the unmentionables voted for Trump and look where that got them. You need to disconnect what you want to happen from what is happening. Farage and Reform have mindshare and they will use all this disdain to reinforce the message that the “elite” are against “the public”. Calling people simple minded is only feeding that message. | |||
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" After labours attack on pensioners, farmers and the disabled I don’t think reform will have to convince anybody of anything. And immigration another convenient target. All own goals for Labour. And what will reform do ? Just print more money ? The "attack" on pensioners was well discussed, those that would have "needed" the fuel allowance would still have got it. The "disabled" benefits scam needs addressing to ensure sufficient support is there for those who GENUINELY need help. Farmers I agree about inheritance tax, but it was Nigel and Boris that promised farmers they would be better off out of the EU and those pesky EU grants would be replaced with much more generous offers. Now, where were we ? Starmers record: Fishing = sold down the river. Farmers = Screwed them over. Pensioners = R0bbed. Disabled = R0bbed. National security = In turmoil. Free speech = Gone. Safety of women and girls = Gone. National identity = Gone. And don't even start me on the Chagos Island deal. Absolute scumbag of a prime minister and party, the rest are no better either so you wonder why the majority are now on the side of Reform. Mr F. " Funny you mentioned fishing first…. You will have to remind me of how many meetings Farage attended whilst he was on the EU fisheries committee…. Wasn’t it 1 of 125 meetings About as often as he turns up in clacton for local mp political surgeries in his constituency …..  | |||
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"The interest and noise Reform creates certainly puts Farage in the driving seat. I would not be surprised if Farage doesn't want to form a government, much easier to influence from within. He can broker a deal with either Labour or the Conservatives closer to the next GE that gives him what he wants. The blueprint is tried and tested. Interesting, would any of the other parties want to form a coalition with Reform? Tories would make the most sense as a lot of Reform are ex Tories. And the two parties stand for the same thing, and use similar tactics. I have said this many times, he is a shrewd strategist, he runs rings around his peers. I mean he's playing the easy side. The electorate are primed for easy solutions to complex problems. And lap up the anti-immigrant nonsense. If he were to actually try to come up with a sensible strategy, he'd be dead in the water. " Both parties will play up to Farage closer to the GE, if he maintains momentum. They may not do it in public but they will behind closed doors. He has got a sensible strategy, it is the perfect strategy being the underdog in a 3 horse race, influence enough of the betting that it skews the odds on the other 2 even though you are the outsider. He becomes the influencer that is worth more to him than winning the election. It is his forte. | |||
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"The interest and noise Reform creates certainly puts Farage in the driving seat. I would not be surprised if Farage doesn't want to form a government, much easier to influence from within. He can broker a deal with either Labour or the Conservatives closer to the next GE that gives him what he wants. The blueprint is tried and tested. Interesting, would any of the other parties want to form a coalition with Reform? Tories would make the most sense as a lot of Reform are ex Tories. And the two parties stand for the same thing, and use similar tactics. I have said this many times, he is a shrewd strategist, he runs rings around his peers. I mean he's playing the easy side. The electorate are primed for easy solutions to complex problems. And lap up the anti-immigrant nonsense. If he were to actually try to come up with a sensible strategy, he'd be dead in the water. Both parties will play up to Farage closer to the GE, if he maintains momentum. They may not do it in public but they will behind closed doors. He has got a sensible strategy, it is the perfect strategy being the underdog in a 3 horse race, influence enough of the betting that it skews the odds on the other 2 even though you are the outsider. He becomes the influencer that is worth more to him than winning the election. It is his forte." When you say "sensible strategy" are you talking about, sensible strategy to get elected, or sensible strategy to run the country? | |||
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"As an exercise in shifting political opinion this is going to be interesting to watch. As with the trump campaign ( how's that working out by the way ) there are external influences taking place over social media to affect the thinking of the simple minded people they can control to support reform. You saw it in the run up to Brexit You saw it in the run up to the US elections You're seeing it now. I think this is a massively dangerous view. Under estimating your opponent is the one strategy that is pretty much guaranteed to lead to disappointment. The Democrats thought that only the unmentionables voted for Trump and look where that got them. You need to disconnect what you want to happen from what is happening. Farage and Reform have mindshare and they will use all this disdain to reinforce the message that the “elite” are against “the public”. Calling people simple minded is only feeding that message." As weird as this sounds. It could be right. I remember lots of people posting on here that they voted to leave the EU for no other reason that to stick it to "experts" who understood the impact of leaving the EU. What's the answer though? How do you combat Reform/Farage on their campaign tactics. | |||
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"As an exercise in shifting political opinion this is going to be interesting to watch. As with the trump campaign ( how's that working out by the way ) there are external influences taking place over social media to affect the thinking of the simple minded people they can control to support reform. You saw it in the run up to Brexit You saw it in the run up to the US elections You're seeing it now. I think this is a massively dangerous view. Under estimating your opponent is the one strategy that is pretty much guaranteed to lead to disappointment. The Democrats thought that only the unmentionables voted for Trump and look where that got them. You need to disconnect what you want to happen from what is happening. Farage and Reform have mindshare and they will use all this disdain to reinforce the message that the “elite” are against “the public”. Calling people simple minded is only feeding that message." I note that disdain for the left has never cost the right any votes. I tend to take the view that if anything the left aren't strong enough in their condemnation of the worst excesses of the right. They cower in apology every time they let slip what they really think about it (Brown's "some bigoted woman", Hillary's "basket of deplorables") and I remember this auto-flagellation after Brexit, "oh if only we'd been nicer to those people they might have changed their minds about how much they think Boris Johnson's a legend..." I wonder what the landscape would look like if we had a brace of really serious social Democrats who weren't groomed by PR and had the balls to point at all these xenophobes and grifters and small-minded arseholes and call them out for how shameful and despicable and unpatriotic their behaviour really is. | |||
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" What's the answer though? How do you combat Reform/Farage on their campaign tactics." By making salient points without the derision. It's not rocket science. But most people don't have the patience for it. What's certain is that dismissing people and arguments as "racist" plays right into their hands. Framing anyone who protests on the left as "non racists" (implying that everyone else must be racist) just irritates others into supporting Reform. Like it or not, that's how it is. Make respectful and clear arguments without condescending, and perhaps people won't feel so alienated as to vote against their own interests just to stick it to "the elite". | |||
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" I note that disdain for the left has never cost the right any votes. " Right or left doesn't matter, it's about who is harnessing anger. It depends on which side is going in as underdog. Also consider the city/country and educational level divide: they're different markets. | |||
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" What's the answer though? How do you combat Reform/Farage on their campaign tactics. By making salient points without the derision. It's not rocket science. But most people don't have the patience for it. " It was done to death in the Brexit debates and they just didn't listen. " What's certain is that dismissing people and arguments as "racist" plays right into their hands. Framing anyone who protests on the left as "non racists" (implying that everyone else must be racist) just irritates others into supporting Reform. Like it or not, that's how it is. " I guess I wasn't asking about me, I'm well aware that nothing I say will make an iota of difference to a Reform voter. But my question was meant to refer to what can economists, political commentators do to help people to see that voting Reform is against their own interests. " Make respectful and clear arguments without condescending, and perhaps people won't feel so alienated as to vote against their own interests just to stick it to "the elite"." I get the point. I think Reform voters would also need to take some responsibility and see that they are voting specifically for the benefit of the "elite". | |||
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"The interest and noise Reform creates certainly puts Farage in the driving seat. I would not be surprised if Farage doesn't want to form a government, much easier to influence from within. He can broker a deal with either Labour or the Conservatives closer to the next GE that gives him what he wants. The blueprint is tried and tested. I have said this many times, he is a shrewd strategist, he runs rings around his peers. " I think getting into a deal with either the conservatives or Labour would undo all the work he has done so far. Labour are incumbent and people have abandoned Conservatives. It's going to take at least one more election for the Tories to win back some faith. Getting into a deal with them at this point would be self destruction at this point. | |||
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" It was done to death in the Brexit debates and they just didn't listen. " Democracy doesn't give the "right" answer. It just gives us enough tolerance of the process to not kill each other over the outcome, which is far more important. | |||
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" It was done to death in the Brexit debates and they just didn't listen. Democracy doesn't give the "right" answer. It just gives us enough tolerance of the process to not kill each other over the outcome, which is far more important." Apart from Jo Cox of course. But my point stands. No amount of reasoned debate, information, explanation, etc made a difference for Brexit. | |||
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" I note that disdain for the left has never cost the right any votes. Right or left doesn't matter, it's about who is harnessing anger. It depends on which side is going in as underdog. Also consider the city/country and educational level divide: they're different markets." What is it Trump said... "I love the poorly educated"? | |||
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" But my question was meant to refer to what can economists, political commentators do to help people to see that voting Reform is against their own interests. " Same answer, really. Don't dismiss the arguments. Genuinely engage, instead of "no, but", try "yes, and?" to take some of the arguments to their eventual conclusions. Some of their points are reasonable. Some are terrible. Acknowledge the reasonable ones, but probe the terrible ones. And bring it back to "the economy, stupid". "Experts" too often treat others like they're stupid. This also happened during Brexit. Once people feel the condescension, no amount of reason and logic will make any difference. | |||
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"As an exercise in shifting political opinion this is going to be interesting to watch. As with the trump campaign ( how's that working out by the way ) there are external influences taking place over social media to affect the thinking of the simple minded people they can control to support reform. You saw it in the run up to Brexit You saw it in the run up to the US elections You're seeing it now. I think this is a massively dangerous view. Under estimating your opponent is the one strategy that is pretty much guaranteed to lead to disappointment. The Democrats thought that only the unmentionables voted for Trump and look where that got them. You need to disconnect what you want to happen from what is happening. Farage and Reform have mindshare and they will use all this disdain to reinforce the message that the “elite” are against “the public”. Calling people simple minded is only feeding that message. As weird as this sounds. It could be right. I remember lots of people posting on here that they voted to leave the EU for no other reason that to stick it to "experts" who understood the impact of leaving the EU. What's the answer though? How do you combat Reform/Farage on their campaign tactics." To combat Farage you need to accept that he has a position that resonates with the public (and increasingly so) and that, rather than reflexively calling those people racist and xenophobic bigots, the left needs to face into the fact that the public wants immigration to be controlled. This will require decisions that many of the left won’t like. The blunt fact is that these decisions are going to be made but the question is by whom? Is it better to make unpalatable decisions but at least be in a position of power to mitigate their worst impact or is it better to avoid the hard decisions, stand on the sideline and claim it is a travesty? The Tories, historically, were the masters of keeping power and holding their noses. The left were masters of having a clean nose but no power. Which one do you want? | |||
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" It was done to death in the Brexit debates and they just didn't listen. Democracy doesn't give the "right" answer. It just gives us enough tolerance of the process to not kill each other over the outcome, which is far more important. Apart from Jo Cox of course. But my point stands. No amount of reasoned debate, information, explanation, etc made a difference for Brexit. " In my view it's because one side was trying to preserve a fragile international accord and the other was running an elaborate con. Or rather a load of distinct cons. Johnson, Cummings, Farage, Gove... All working for their personal gain with no interest in any lasting good for the country of its inhabitants. | |||
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" It was done to death in the Brexit debates and they just didn't listen. Democracy doesn't give the "right" answer. It just gives us enough tolerance of the process to not kill each other over the outcome, which is far more important. Apart from Jo Cox of course. But my point stands. No amount of reasoned debate, information, explanation, etc made a difference for Brexit. " Because you're looking to "win", for your view of the "right thing" to happen. But politics is the art of the possible (von Bismarck?). A democratic result is actually the only one that counts (outside of the egregious extremes). And sometimes we just walk away and say "next time". Yes, even if it appears that we're walking off a metaphorical cliff. | |||
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"Reform’s leadership said it would repeal the Human Rights Act, leave the European convention on human rights (ECHR), and disapply the 1951 refugee convention and UN convention against torture, with senior party figure Zia Yusuf declaring that “no lawyer and no judge” would be able to prevent deportation flights from leaving. There we go, job done. Now just the question of the economy ? Fuck that, let's go for a pint " | |||
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" To combat Farage you need to accept that he has a position that resonates with the public (and increasingly so) and that, rather than reflexively calling those people racist and xenophobic bigots, the left needs to face into the fact that the public wants immigration to be controlled. This will require decisions that many of the left won’t like. The blunt fact is that these decisions are going to be made but the question is by whom? Is it better to make unpalatable decisions but at least be in a position of power to mitigate their worst impact or is it better to avoid the hard decisions, stand on the sideline and claim it is a travesty? The Tories, historically, were the masters of keeping power and holding their noses. The left were masters of having a clean nose but no power. Which one do you want?" Exactly. Acknowledge how people feel and understand that they need action - if you won't do it, somebody else will come in and do it worse. The art of the possible. | |||
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" It was done to death in the Brexit debates and they just didn't listen. Democracy doesn't give the "right" answer. It just gives us enough tolerance of the process to not kill each other over the outcome, which is far more important. Apart from Jo Cox of course. But my point stands. No amount of reasoned debate, information, explanation, etc made a difference for Brexit. Because you're looking to "win", for your view of the "right thing" to happen. But politics is the art of the possible (von Bismarck?). A democratic result is actually the only one that counts (outside of the egregious extremes). And sometimes we just walk away and say "next time". Yes, even if it appears that we're walking off a metaphorical cliff." No nothing to do with a "win", I'm not concerned about voting for the side that wins the election. My question is still, how do people combat Farage and Reforms tactics. In the context of the other chap's post about how not to tackle them. | |||
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"The interest and noise Reform creates certainly puts Farage in the driving seat. I would not be surprised if Farage doesn't want to form a government, much easier to influence from within. He can broker a deal with either Labour or the Conservatives closer to the next GE that gives him what he wants. The blueprint is tried and tested. I have said this many times, he is a shrewd strategist, he runs rings around his peers. I think getting into a deal with either the conservatives or Labour would undo all the work he has done so far. Labour are incumbent and people have abandoned Conservatives. It's going to take at least one more election for the Tories to win back some faith. Getting into a deal with them at this point would be self destruction at this point." If you park the idea that Farage actually wants to govern, his strategy becomes clearer. He is following the same path he has already used successfully exerting maximum influence without the hassle of having to deliver himself. | |||
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" If you park the idea that Farage actually wants to govern, his strategy becomes clearer. He is following the same path he has already used successfully exerting maximum influence without the hassle of having to deliver himself. " Genuine question (anticipating many flippant answers, but really curious)... What actually drives the guy? | |||
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" It was done to death in the Brexit debates and they just didn't listen. Democracy doesn't give the "right" answer. It just gives us enough tolerance of the process to not kill each other over the outcome, which is far more important. Apart from Jo Cox of course. But my point stands. No amount of reasoned debate, information, explanation, etc made a difference for Brexit. Because you're looking to "win", for your view of the "right thing" to happen. But politics is the art of the possible (von Bismarck?). A democratic result is actually the only one that counts (outside of the egregious extremes). And sometimes we just walk away and say "next time". Yes, even if it appears that we're walking off a metaphorical cliff. No nothing to do with a "win", I'm not concerned about voting for the side that wins the election. My question is still, how do people combat Farage and Reforms tactics. In the context of the other chap's post about how not to tackle them." Zero small boats then he had nothing to say. So extremely easy task to shut him down ? | |||
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" If you park the idea that Farage actually wants to govern, his strategy becomes clearer. He is following the same path he has already used successfully exerting maximum influence without the hassle of having to deliver himself. Genuine question (anticipating many flippant answers, but really curious)... What actually drives the guy?" For Brexit he got a lot of donations from US corporations. I assume someone else is sponsoring him now. | |||
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" If you park the idea that Farage actually wants to govern, his strategy becomes clearer. He is following the same path he has already used successfully exerting maximum influence without the hassle of having to deliver himself. Genuine question (anticipating many flippant answers, but really curious)... What actually drives the guy? For Brexit he got a lot of donations from US corporations. I assume someone else is sponsoring him now." The fossil fuels industry. | |||
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" If you park the idea that Farage actually wants to govern, his strategy becomes clearer. He is following the same path he has already used successfully exerting maximum influence without the hassle of having to deliver himself. Genuine question (anticipating many flippant answers, but really curious)... What actually drives the guy? For Brexit he got a lot of donations from US corporations. I assume someone else is sponsoring him now." Absolute rubbish. Maybe try doing some basic research before you post such ignorant dross and disinformation. The donations to the two sides of the EU Referendum are easily available online and it is actually the total opposite of what you say. Some top donors to the Remain campaign: JP Morgan (US) Citigroup (US) David Sainsbury (UK) Goldman Sachs (US) Mark Coombs (UK) Some top donors to the Leave campaign: Peter Hargreaves (UK) Arron Banks (UK) Jeremy Hosking (UK) Crispin Odey (UK) Lord Bamford (UK) | |||
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" If you park the idea that Farage actually wants to govern, his strategy becomes clearer. He is following the same path he has already used successfully exerting maximum influence without the hassle of having to deliver himself. Genuine question (anticipating many flippant answers, but really curious)... What actually drives the guy?" In my view his driver is sovereignty, nothing more and nothing less. Everything else stems from that core principle. It’s what enabled him to push for and achieve the UK’s exit from the EU, and his next objective is to move the needle on immigration particularly small boat crossings and other forms of entry outside state control. What has been highlighted well in this thread is the more he is dismissed as X, Y or Z, the more support he draws. He has mastered the art of turning criticism into support, a skill that has not gone unnoticed by Mr Trump. | |||
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" If you park the idea that Farage actually wants to govern, his strategy becomes clearer. He is following the same path he has already used successfully exerting maximum influence without the hassle of having to deliver himself. Genuine question (anticipating many flippant answers, but really curious)... What actually drives the guy? In my view his driver is sovereignty, nothing more and nothing less. Everything else stems from that core principle. It’s what enabled him to push for and achieve the UK’s exit from the EU, and his next objective is to move the needle on immigration particularly small boat crossings and other forms of entry outside state control. What has been highlighted well in this thread is the more he is dismissed as X, Y or Z, the more support he draws. He has mastered the art of turning criticism into support, a skill that has not gone unnoticed by Mr Trump." It boggles my mind that anyone thinks Farage cares about sovereignty, immigration, or the UK in general. Do people genuinely think that he has any principles? | |||
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" If you park the idea that Farage actually wants to govern, his strategy becomes clearer. He is following the same path he has already used successfully exerting maximum influence without the hassle of having to deliver himself. Genuine question (anticipating many flippant answers, but really curious)... What actually drives the guy?" Being like trump | |||
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" If you park the idea that Farage actually wants to govern, his strategy becomes clearer. He is following the same path he has already used successfully exerting maximum influence without the hassle of having to deliver himself. Genuine question (anticipating many flippant answers, but really curious)... What actually drives the guy? In my view his driver is sovereignty, nothing more and nothing less. Everything else stems from that core principle. It’s what enabled him to push for and achieve the UK’s exit from the EU, and his next objective is to move the needle on immigration particularly small boat crossings and other forms of entry outside state control. What has been highlighted well in this thread is the more he is dismissed as X, Y or Z, the more support he draws. He has mastered the art of turning criticism into support, a skill that has not gone unnoticed by Mr Trump. It boggles my mind that anyone thinks Farage cares about sovereignty, immigration, or the UK in general. Do people genuinely think that he has any principles?" If you believe he doesn't have sovereignty as his main driver, what do you think drives his ambitions? | |||
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"I’m looking forward to the next general election, to casting my vote for Reform UK. To attending the announcement of our victory, and to raise a glass to the television pictures of Nigel Farage entering Number Ten. It’s going to be great, I might even log on here, so you lot can celebrate with me. "If Farage struck a deal with the next governing party (assuming it isn’t Reform) that included a commitment to leave the ECHR, but not immediately, say maintaining existing policies for 10 years, with the exception of the refugee convention which would be rewritten within 2 years, would that be something you could get behind in place of the “total win” | |||
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" If you park the idea that Farage actually wants to govern, his strategy becomes clearer. He is following the same path he has already used successfully exerting maximum influence without the hassle of having to deliver himself. Genuine question (anticipating many flippant answers, but really curious)... What actually drives the guy? In my view his driver is sovereignty, nothing more and nothing less. Everything else stems from that core principle. It’s what enabled him to push for and achieve the UK’s exit from the EU, and his next objective is to move the needle on immigration particularly small boat crossings and other forms of entry outside state control. What has been highlighted well in this thread is the more he is dismissed as X, Y or Z, the more support he draws. He has mastered the art of turning criticism into support, a skill that has not gone unnoticed by Mr Trump. It boggles my mind that anyone thinks Farage cares about sovereignty, immigration, or the UK in general. Do people genuinely think that he has any principles? If you believe he doesn't have sovereignty as his main driver, what do you think drives his ambitions? " I think this explains why we have so much difficulty understanding each others points. We're coming from such polar different places. It never occurred to me that someone trying to make sensible points about Farage would think that he has the interests of the UK or British people at heart. I genuinely can't believe that Farage cares about any of those issues. He cares about money. Look at all the other jobs he does when he's supposed to being an MP. Look at where his/Reform/ukip(when he was there) funding comes from. | |||
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" If you park the idea that Farage actually wants to govern, his strategy becomes clearer. He is following the same path he has already used successfully exerting maximum influence without the hassle of having to deliver himself. Genuine question (anticipating many flippant answers, but really curious)... What actually drives the guy? In my view his driver is sovereignty, nothing more and nothing less. Everything else stems from that core principle. It’s what enabled him to push for and achieve the UK’s exit from the EU, and his next objective is to move the needle on immigration particularly small boat crossings and other forms of entry outside state control. What has been highlighted well in this thread is the more he is dismissed as X, Y or Z, the more support he draws. He has mastered the art of turning criticism into support, a skill that has not gone unnoticed by Mr Trump. It boggles my mind that anyone thinks Farage cares about sovereignty, immigration, or the UK in general. Do people genuinely think that he has any principles? If you believe he doesn't have sovereignty as his main driver, what do you think drives his ambitions? I think this explains why we have so much difficulty understanding each others points. We're coming from such polar different places. It never occurred to me that someone trying to make sensible points about Farage would think that he has the interests of the UK or British people at heart. I genuinely can't believe that Farage cares about any of those issues. He cares about money. Look at all the other jobs he does when he's supposed to being an MP. Look at where his/Reform/ukip(when he was there) funding comes from. " His driver has consistently been sovereignty, it’s the common thread that runs through every campaign he has put his name to, from Maastricht to Brexit to immigration now. If money was his sole motivator, there are far easier routes than spending decades on the political sidelines building single issue parties. I honestly think you underestimate his capabilities. | |||
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" If you park the idea that Farage actually wants to govern, his strategy becomes clearer. He is following the same path he has already used successfully exerting maximum influence without the hassle of having to deliver himself. Genuine question (anticipating many flippant answers, but really curious)... What actually drives the guy? In my view his driver is sovereignty, nothing more and nothing less. Everything else stems from that core principle. It’s what enabled him to push for and achieve the UK’s exit from the EU, and his next objective is to move the needle on immigration particularly small boat crossings and other forms of entry outside state control. What has been highlighted well in this thread is the more he is dismissed as X, Y or Z, the more support he draws. He has mastered the art of turning criticism into support, a skill that has not gone unnoticed by Mr Trump. It boggles my mind that anyone thinks Farage cares about sovereignty, immigration, or the UK in general. Do people genuinely think that he has any principles? If you believe he doesn't have sovereignty as his main driver, what do you think drives his ambitions? I think this explains why we have so much difficulty understanding each others points. We're coming from such polar different places. It never occurred to me that someone trying to make sensible points about Farage would think that he has the interests of the UK or British people at heart. I genuinely can't believe that Farage cares about any of those issues. He cares about money. Look at all the other jobs he does when he's supposed to being an MP. Look at where his/Reform/ukip(when he was there) funding comes from. " I come back to my earlier points: you have to focus on what is happening as opposed to what you want to happen. You cannot deny that Farage has spent decades on one issue. It is an obsession with him. He was pushing it for all those years when he was a pariah and a laughing stock. He still is. That isn’t the mark of someone looking to make money. It is someone who is fixated on an issue and can’t let go. | |||
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" If you park the idea that Farage actually wants to govern, his strategy becomes clearer. He is following the same path he has already used successfully exerting maximum influence without the hassle of having to deliver himself. Genuine question (anticipating many flippant answers, but really curious)... What actually drives the guy? In my view his driver is sovereignty, nothing more and nothing less. Everything else stems from that core principle. It’s what enabled him to push for and achieve the UK’s exit from the EU, and his next objective is to move the needle on immigration particularly small boat crossings and other forms of entry outside state control. What has been highlighted well in this thread is the more he is dismissed as X, Y or Z, the more support he draws. He has mastered the art of turning criticism into support, a skill that has not gone unnoticed by Mr Trump. It boggles my mind that anyone thinks Farage cares about sovereignty, immigration, or the UK in general. Do people genuinely think that he has any principles? If you believe he doesn't have sovereignty as his main driver, what do you think drives his ambitions? I think this explains why we have so much difficulty understanding each others points. We're coming from such polar different places. It never occurred to me that someone trying to make sensible points about Farage would think that he has the interests of the UK or British people at heart. I genuinely can't believe that Farage cares about any of those issues. He cares about money. Look at all the other jobs he does when he's supposed to being an MP. Look at where his/Reform/ukip(when he was there) funding comes from. His driver has consistently been sovereignty, it’s the common thread that runs through every campaign he has put his name to, from Maastricht to Brexit to immigration now. If money was his sole motivator, there are far easier routes than spending decades on the political sidelines building single issue parties. I honestly think you underestimate his capabilities. " His capabilities are completely unrelated to his motivation. Farage has made a shit load of money throughout his political career. | |||
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" After labours attack on pensioners, farmers and the disabled I don’t think reform will have to convince anybody of anything. And immigration another convenient target. All own goals for Labour. And what will reform do ? Just print more money ? The "attack" on pensioners was well discussed, those that would have "needed" the fuel allowance would still have got it. The "disabled" benefits scam needs addressing to ensure sufficient support is there for those who GENUINELY need help. Farmers I agree about inheritance tax, but it was Nigel and Boris that promised farmers they would be better off out of the EU and those pesky EU grants would be replaced with much more generous offers. Now, where were we ? Starmers record: Fishing = sold down the river. Farmers = Screwed them over. Pensioners = R0bbed. Disabled = R0bbed. National security = In turmoil. Free speech = Gone. Safety of women and girls = Gone. National identity = Gone. And don't even start me on the Chagos Island deal. Absolute scumbag of a prime minister and party, the rest are no better either so you wonder why the majority are now on the side of Reform. Mr F. Absolute rubbish " Please point out which parts are absolute rubbish? All complete facts. Mr F. | |||
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" Fishing = sold down the river. Farmers = Screwed them over. Pensioners = R0bbed. Disabled = R0bbed. National security = In turmoil. Free speech = Gone. Safety of women and girls = Gone. National identity = Gone. And don't even start me on the Chagos Island deal. Please point out which parts are absolute rubbish? " Just those bits But feel free to give a detailed breakdown of each and some evidence | |||
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" After labours attack on pensioners, farmers and the disabled I don’t think reform will have to convince anybody of anything. And immigration another convenient target. All own goals for Labour. And what will reform do ? Just print more money ? The "attack" on pensioners was well discussed, those that would have "needed" the fuel allowance would still have got it. The "disabled" benefits scam needs addressing to ensure sufficient support is there for those who GENUINELY need help. Farmers I agree about inheritance tax, but it was Nigel and Boris that promised farmers they would be better off out of the EU and those pesky EU grants would be replaced with much more generous offers. Now, where were we ? Starmers record: Fishing = sold down the river. Farmers = Screwed them over. Pensioners = R0bbed. Disabled = R0bbed. National security = In turmoil. Free speech = Gone. Safety of women and girls = Gone. National identity = Gone. And don't even start me on the Chagos Island deal. Absolute scumbag of a prime minister and party, the rest are no better either so you wonder why the majority are now on the side of Reform. Mr F. Absolute rubbish Please point out which parts are absolute rubbish? All complete facts. Mr F. " I assume you're voting Reform? | |||
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"And still no-one is concerned about the overturning of the Equalities Act 2010 under Reform? There is nothing to say what, if anything, it will be replaced with. That doesn't concern anyone? " Of course it does, along with all the other garbage that's written on the back of his fag packet | |||
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"And still no-one is concerned about the overturning of the Equalities Act 2010 under Reform? There is nothing to say what, if anything, it will be replaced with. That doesn't concern anyone? Of course it does, along with all the other garbage that's written on the back of his fag packet" Thank goodness for that! | |||
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"And still no-one is concerned about the overturning of the Equalities Act 2010 under Reform? There is nothing to say what, if anything, it will be replaced with. That doesn't concern anyone? Of course it does, along with all the other garbage that's written on the back of his fag packet Thank goodness for that! " He went to private school, worked as a commodity trader and they believe he's a man for the ordinary people, just an ordinary bloke down the pub
We'll not mention his EU pension etc | |||
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"And still no-one is concerned about the overturning of the Equalities Act 2010 under Reform? There is nothing to say what, if anything, it will be replaced with. That doesn't concern anyone? Of course it does, along with all the other garbage that's written on the back of his fag packet Thank goodness for that! He went to private school, worked as a commodity trader and they believe he's a man for the ordinary people, just an ordinary bloke down the pub
We'll not mention his EU pension etc"What is a man of the ordinary people in your opinion? | |||
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"And still no-one is concerned about the overturning of the Equalities Act 2010 under Reform? There is nothing to say what, if anything, it will be replaced with. That doesn't concern anyone? Of course it does, along with all the other garbage that's written on the back of his fag packet Thank goodness for that! He went to private school, worked as a commodity trader and they believe he's a man for the ordinary people, just an ordinary bloke down the pub
We'll not mention his EU pension etc
What is a man of the ordinary people in your opinion? "Not that cunt,and there is no such politician | |||
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" Fishing = sold down the river. Farmers = Screwed them over. Pensioners = R0bbed. Disabled = R0bbed. National security = In turmoil. Free speech = Gone. Safety of women and girls = Gone. National identity = Gone. And don't even start me on the Chagos Island deal. Please point out which parts are absolute rubbish? Just those bits But feel free to give a detailed breakdown of each and some evidence " Just as I thought, no answers to facts 🤣 | |||
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" Fishing = sold down the river. Farmers = Screwed them over. Pensioners = R0bbed. Disabled = R0bbed. National security = In turmoil. Free speech = Gone. Safety of women and girls = Gone. National identity = Gone. And don't even start me on the Chagos Island deal. Please point out which parts are absolute rubbish? Just those bits But feel free to give a detailed breakdown of each and some evidence Just as I thought, no answers to facts 🤣" What facts have been presented about fishing et al? | |||
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" Fishing = sold down the river. Farmers = Screwed them over. Pensioners = R0bbed. Disabled = R0bbed. National security = In turmoil. Free speech = Gone. Safety of women and girls = Gone. National identity = Gone. And don't even start me on the Chagos Island deal. Please point out which parts are absolute rubbish? Just those bits But feel free to give a detailed breakdown of each and some evidence Just as I thought, no answers to facts 🤣" Emmm That's not how this works, you accused the labour government of several failings, it's up to you to provide facts darling  | |||
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"And still no-one is concerned about the overturning of the Equalities Act 2010 under Reform? There is nothing to say what, if anything, it will be replaced with. That doesn't concern anyone? Of course it does, along with all the other garbage that's written on the back of his fag packet Thank goodness for that! He went to private school, worked as a commodity trader and they believe he's a man for the ordinary people, just an ordinary bloke down the pub
We'll not mention his EU pension etc
What is a man of the ordinary people in your opinion?
Not that cunt,and there is no such politician"Are you drawn to the communist ideology, or another? | |||
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" After labours attack on pensioners, farmers and the disabled I don’t think reform will have to convince anybody of anything. And immigration another convenient target. All own goals for Labour. And what will reform do ? Just print more money ? The "attack" on pensioners was well discussed, those that would have "needed" the fuel allowance would still have got it. The "disabled" benefits scam needs addressing to ensure sufficient support is there for those who GENUINELY need help. Farmers I agree about inheritance tax, but it was Nigel and Boris that promised farmers they would be better off out of the EU and those pesky EU grants would be replaced with much more generous offers. Now, where were we ? Starmers record: Fishing = sold down the river. Farmers = Screwed them over. Pensioners = R0bbed. Disabled = R0bbed. National security = In turmoil. Free speech = Gone. Safety of women and girls = Gone. National identity = Gone. And don't even start me on the Chagos Island deal. Absolute scumbag of a prime minister and party, the rest are no better either so you wonder why the majority are now on the side of Reform. Mr F. Absolute rubbish Please point out which parts are absolute rubbish? All complete facts. Mr F. " Don’t hold your breath, they haven’t got a valid argument, they will simply call you names and make a bunch of crass accusations. None of their arguments are based on facts, and like the shysters in government they will attempt to answer questions with questions. If you haven’t found out whom is unworthy of any trust on this forum, you soon will. | |||
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"And still no-one is concerned about the overturning of the Equalities Act 2010 under Reform? There is nothing to say what, if anything, it will be replaced with. That doesn't concern anyone? Of course it does, along with all the other garbage that's written on the back of his fag packet Thank goodness for that! He went to private school, worked as a commodity trader and they believe he's a man for the ordinary people, just an ordinary bloke down the pub
We'll not mention his EU pension etc
What is a man of the ordinary people in your opinion?
Not that cunt,and there is no such politician
Are you drawn to the communist ideology, or another?"Not particularly, no | |||
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" After labours attack on pensioners, farmers and the disabled I don’t think reform will have to convince anybody of anything. And immigration another convenient target. All own goals for Labour. And what will reform do ? Just print more money ? The "attack" on pensioners was well discussed, those that would have "needed" the fuel allowance would still have got it. The "disabled" benefits scam needs addressing to ensure sufficient support is there for those who GENUINELY need help. Farmers I agree about inheritance tax, but it was Nigel and Boris that promised farmers they would be better off out of the EU and those pesky EU grants would be replaced with much more generous offers. Now, where were we ? Starmers record: Fishing = sold down the river. Farmers = Screwed them over. Pensioners = R0bbed. Disabled = R0bbed. National security = In turmoil. Free speech = Gone. Safety of women and girls = Gone. National identity = Gone. And don't even start me on the Chagos Island deal. Absolute scumbag of a prime minister and party, the rest are no better either so you wonder why the majority are now on the side of Reform. Mr F. Absolute rubbish Please point out which parts are absolute rubbish? All complete facts. Mr F. Don’t hold your breath, they haven’t got a valid argument, they will simply call you names and make a bunch of crass accusations. None of their arguments are based on facts, and like the shysters in government they will attempt to answer questions with questions. If you haven’t found out whom is unworthy of any trust on this forum, you soon will. " That's right. Just make up any old horseshit. Then tell people they have to prove it wrong. Then start insulting anyone a micron to the left of Heinrich Himmler. | |||
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"And still no-one is concerned about the overturning of the Equalities Act 2010 under Reform? There is nothing to say what, if anything, it will be replaced with. That doesn't concern anyone? " That concerns me greatly, and it should concern every single person in the UK, because every sovereign UK citizen is protected by it. (So removing it should be ringing great big honking alarm bells). . The Equality Act 2010 provides a legal framework to protect individuals from unfair treatment and promote a fair and more equal society. . t protects people from discrimination in the workplace and wider society. It identifies 9 protected characteristics where discrimination is unlawful: Age Disability Gender reassignment Marriage and civil partnership Pregnancy and maternity Race Religion or belief Sex Sexual orientation . In short, the Equality Act 2010 is the UK’s cornerstone anti-discrimination law. . Reform UK have expressly stated intentions to scrap the Equality Act 2010.This pledge implies a repeal of the Equality Act 2010. . Repealing it would remove legal safeguards in employment, housing, goods and services, education, and other areas—leaving individuals and communities vulnerable to unfair treatment and inequality. . Ironically, voters of Reform UK will be voting to remove their own protections. . Not only will they lose their own protections, they will have carte blanche to engage in open season on those previously "protected by law" since there will be no law left to protect them. . I am very happy for those who I might not agree with to have rights against being discriminated against. That includes Reform UK supporters. I don't want to see them lose their rights as individuals. But neither do I wish to lose mine either. What is the point in that ? | |||
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"If you put 100 black ants and 100 red ants in a jar, nothing happens. But if you shake the jar hard, they start fighting until they destroy each other. The red ants think the black ants are the enemy, and the black ants think the red ants are the enemy. But the real enemy is the one shaking the jar. The same thing happens in human society. Before we fight each other, we should ask: who is shaking the jar?" A small group of Red Ants and Black Ants who have decided that there is capital opportunity in shaking the jar because they know it will cause friction, and from friction opportunity arises. Said new group has positioned themselves as "leaders" and are exerting dominance and control. | |||
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" After labours attack on pensioners, farmers and the disabled I don’t think reform will have to convince anybody of anything. And immigration another convenient target. All own goals for Labour. And what will reform do ? Just print more money ? The "attack" on pensioners was well discussed, those that would have "needed" the fuel allowance would still have got it. The "disabled" benefits scam needs addressing to ensure sufficient support is there for those who GENUINELY need help. Farmers I agree about inheritance tax, but it was Nigel and Boris that promised farmers they would be better off out of the EU and those pesky EU grants would be replaced with much more generous offers. Now, where were we ? Starmers record: Fishing = sold down the river. Farmers = Screwed them over. Pensioners = R0bbed. Disabled = R0bbed. National security = In turmoil. Free speech = Gone. Safety of women and girls = Gone. National identity = Gone. And don't even start me on the Chagos Island deal. Absolute scumbag of a prime minister and party, the rest are no better either so you wonder why the majority are now on the side of Reform. Mr F. " Is that the Chagos Islands deal negotiated by the tories and completed by labour?  | |||
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"After fucking us over with brexit, he shows that he's still not here for everyone, largely being in it for himself, mates and those with the right finance. We should be pursuing major, international changes that are integrated cross border. The NI Treaty needs protection too and we should retain ECHR membership.. His half-baked, tinpot ideas, throwing our protections away, isn't literate or economically literate. Populist BS, rabble rousing. " Agreed. He's throwing red meat to hungry wolves and they are lapping it up. | |||
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" After labours attack on pensioners, farmers and the disabled I don’t think reform will have to convince anybody of anything. And immigration another convenient target. All own goals for Labour. And what will reform do ? Just print more money ? The "attack" on pensioners was well discussed, those that would have "needed" the fuel allowance would still have got it. The "disabled" benefits scam needs addressing to ensure sufficient support is there for those who GENUINELY need help. Farmers I agree about inheritance tax, but it was Nigel and Boris that promised farmers they would be better off out of the EU and those pesky EU grants would be replaced with much more generous offers. Now, where were we ? Starmers record: Fishing = sold down the river. Farmers = Screwed them over. Pensioners = R0bbed. Disabled = R0bbed. National security = In turmoil. Free speech = Gone. Safety of women and girls = Gone. National identity = Gone. And don't even start me on the Chagos Island deal. Absolute scumbag of a prime minister and party, the rest are no better either so you wonder why the majority are now on the side of Reform. Mr F. Absolute rubbish Please point out which parts are absolute rubbish? All complete facts. Mr F. Don’t hold your breath, they haven’t got a valid argument, they will simply call you names and make a bunch of crass accusations. None of their arguments are based on facts, and like the shysters in government they will attempt to answer questions with questions. If you haven’t found out whom is unworthy of any trust on this forum, you soon will. That's right. Just make up any old horseshit. Then tell people they have to prove it wrong. Then start insulting anyone a micron to the left of Heinrich Himmler. " Here we go, accusation of being a Nazi! Try again Two Bob, I ain’t no fucking Nazi. Just a working class Brit who’s had enough. It’s taken some time, but guess what, the worm is turning. More and more of us are standing up to be counted, and the man whose life’s work has made this possible, is ,of course, Nigel Farage. I suppose we also have the Libtards to thank, because your arrogance has made it all the more easy. The abuse leveled at anyone to the right of Jeremy Corbyn, has been laughable, I mean, is that the best you can do? Anyway, out movement is continuing to pick up pace, while all of the others are grinding to a halt. So while you lot are trying so hard to upset us, the majority of us will ignore you. While we prepare for government, ha ha ha! | |||
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" Fishing = sold down the river. Farmers = Screwed them over. Pensioners = R0bbed. Disabled = R0bbed. National security = In turmoil. Free speech = Gone. Safety of women and girls = Gone. National identity = Gone. And don't even start me on the Chagos Island deal. Please point out which parts are absolute rubbish? Just those bits But feel free to give a detailed breakdown of each and some evidence Just as I thought, no answers to facts 🤣" Erm… I mentioned fishing further up in the thread… and you seem to gloss over it or have some type of amnesia… so let’s try again Funny you mentioned fishing first…. You will have to remind me of how many meetings Farage attended whilst he was on the EU fisheries committee…. Wasn’t it 1 of 125 meetings So he talks a good game but doesn’t act | |||
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" Anyway, out movement is continuing to pick up pace, " Movement towards what, would be my question. Nigel and Reform and all his other political dalliances have always defined themselves by what they're against. Europe, the ECHR, immigrants, "woke", human rights, smoking bans and so on. But it's easy to get people all worked up by constantly reminding them of what pisses them off - or in many cases giving them reasons to be pissed off they wouldn't have arrived at by themselves. What is the actual plan, though, once they've put away the sledgehammers and the wrecking ball? What is it you expect to see once the dust has settled? Once all those institutions have been razed and the enemies of the good old hard-working British have been sent packing, what next? And please, be specific. | |||
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"If they do win the election and it's a big if, unless you spend all your time in echo chambers. They will blame the previous government's since 2000 for their plans not succeeding. Just like the line we never got the Brexit we voted for." I guess they will be able to take every utterance any Labour politician has made since July 2024 and regurgitate that. Except where it says “blame the Tories” they can substitute “blame Labour”. | |||
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" After labours attack on pensioners, farmers and the disabled I don’t think reform will have to convince anybody of anything. And immigration another convenient target. All own goals for Labour. And what will reform do ? Just print more money ? The "attack" on pensioners was well discussed, those that would have "needed" the fuel allowance would still have got it. The "disabled" benefits scam needs addressing to ensure sufficient support is there for those who GENUINELY need help. Farmers I agree about inheritance tax, but it was Nigel and Boris that promised farmers they would be better off out of the EU and those pesky EU grants would be replaced with much more generous offers. Now, where were we ? Starmers record: Fishing = sold down the river. Farmers = Screwed them over. Pensioners = R0bbed. Disabled = R0bbed. National security = In turmoil. Free speech = Gone. Safety of women and girls = Gone. National identity = Gone. And don't even start me on the Chagos Island deal. Absolute scumbag of a prime minister and party, the rest are no better either so you wonder why the majority are now on the side of Reform. Mr F. Absolute rubbish Please point out which parts are absolute rubbish? All complete facts. Mr F. Don’t hold your breath, they haven’t got a valid argument, they will simply call you names and make a bunch of crass accusations. None of their arguments are based on facts, and like the shysters in government they will attempt to answer questions with questions. If you haven’t found out whom is unworthy of any trust on this forum, you soon will. That's right. Just make up any old horseshit. Then tell people they have to prove it wrong. Then start insulting anyone a micron to the left of Heinrich Himmler. Here we go, accusation of being a Nazi! Try again Two Bob, I ain’t no fucking Nazi. Just a working class Brit who’s had enough. It’s taken some time, but guess what, the worm is turning. More and more of us are standing up to be counted, and the man whose life’s work has made this possible, is ,of course, Nigel Farage. I suppose we also have the Libtards to thank, because your arrogance has made it all the more easy. The abuse leveled at anyone to the right of Jeremy Corbyn, has been laughable, I mean, is that the best you can do? Anyway, out movement is continuing to pick up pace, while all of the others are grinding to a halt. So while you lot are trying so hard to upset us, the majority of us will ignore you. While we prepare for government, ha ha ha! "You're right. More and more people are being convinced that immigrants are causing all their problems. Not sure why you're proud of that. | |||
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" After labours attack on pensioners, farmers and the disabled I don’t think reform will have to convince anybody of anything. And immigration another convenient target. All own goals for Labour. And what will reform do ? Just print more money ? The "attack" on pensioners was well discussed, those that would have "needed" the fuel allowance would still have got it. The "disabled" benefits scam needs addressing to ensure sufficient support is there for those who GENUINELY need help. Farmers I agree about inheritance tax, but it was Nigel and Boris that promised farmers they would be better off out of the EU and those pesky EU grants would be replaced with much more generous offers. Now, where were we ? Starmers record: Fishing = sold down the river. Farmers = Screwed them over. Pensioners = R0bbed. Disabled = R0bbed. National security = In turmoil. Free speech = Gone. Safety of women and girls = Gone. National identity = Gone. And don't even start me on the Chagos Island deal. Absolute scumbag of a prime minister and party, the rest are no better either so you wonder why the majority are now on the side of Reform. Mr F. Absolute rubbish Please point out which parts are absolute rubbish? All complete facts. Mr F. Don’t hold your breath, they haven’t got a valid argument, they will simply call you names and make a bunch of crass accusations. None of their arguments are based on facts, and like the shysters in government they will attempt to answer questions with questions. If you haven’t found out whom is unworthy of any trust on this forum, you soon will. That's right. Just make up any old horseshit. Then tell people they have to prove it wrong. Then start insulting anyone a micron to the left of Heinrich Himmler. Here we go, accusation of being a Nazi! Try again Two Bob, I ain’t no fucking Nazi. Just a working class Brit who’s had enough. It’s taken some time, but guess what, the worm is turning. More and more of us are standing up to be counted, and the man whose life’s work has made this possible, is ,of course, Nigel Farage. I suppose we also have the Libtards to thank, because your arrogance has made it all the more easy. The abuse leveled at anyone to the right of Jeremy Corbyn, has been laughable, I mean, is that the best you can do? Anyway, out movement is continuing to pick up pace, while all of the others are grinding to a halt. So while you lot are trying so hard to upset us, the majority of us will ignore you. While we prepare for government, ha ha ha!
You're right. More and more people are being convinced that immigrants are causing all their problems.
Not sure why you're proud of that. "Maybe you aren’t doing a very good job of convincing people to your point of view. Actively spreading disinformation like you do in this forum isn’t going to persuade anyone to your cause. | |||
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" If you park the idea that Farage actually wants to govern, his strategy becomes clearer. He is following the same path he has already used successfully exerting maximum influence without the hassle of having to deliver himself. Genuine question (anticipating many flippant answers, but really curious)... What actually drives the guy? Being like trump " ..and Johnson. When will people learn that they are being taken for a ride? | |||
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"I’m looking forward to the next general election, to casting my vote for Reform UK. To attending the announcement of our victory, and to raise a glass to the television pictures of Nigel Farage entering Number Ten. It’s going to be great, I might even log on here, so you lot can celebrate with me. "I will come round and thank you for your misguided effort in contributing to the disaster. | |||
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" ... His driver has consistently been sovereignty, it’s the common thread that runs through every campaign he has put his name to, from Maastricht to Brexit to immigration now. If money was his sole motivator, there are far easier routes than spending decades on the political sidelines building single issue parties. I honestly think you underestimate his capabilities. " Are you mixing up his driver with his cover story? | |||
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"Assuming fab is a representation of the real world, fag packet farage doesn't seem to have a lot of support " He absolutely does, the left wing echo chambers are awash with anti Farage messaging. He picks up more mainstream support, because he actually starts to sound reasonable compared to the insults the left throw bout like confetti. I see why this happens, the anger and ridiculous name calling / comments, also makes me consider the left wing to be far from where rationale debate is happening, as you say representative of this forum. | |||
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"Assuming fab is a representation of the real world, fag packet farage doesn't seem to have a lot of support He absolutely does, the left wing echo chambers are awash with anti Farage messaging. He picks up more mainstream support, because he actually starts to sound reasonable compared to the insults the left throw bout like confetti. I see why this happens, the anger and ridiculous name calling / comments, also makes me consider the left wing to be far from where rationale debate is happening, as you say representative of this forum." The insults are thrown by both sides of the political spectrum. Its not a preserve of those to the left. | |||
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"Assuming fab is a representation of the real world, fag packet farage doesn't seem to have a lot of support " That's why Reform have a 9 point lead in the opinion polls. The lefty parties are now a minority in this country, thankfully | |||
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"Assuming fab is a representation of the real world, fag packet farage doesn't seem to have a lot of support That's why Reform have a 9 point lead in the opinion polls. The lefty parties are now a minority in this country, thankfully "The current government is currently in their trough of disillusionment phase. Conservatives are licking their wounds. The polls right now are bit necessarily reflective of a general election voting intent (much like midterm local elections). That said, you're absolutely right, and Reform is resonating with people who are fed up with something, or angry about something. If another party wants to lead, they will need to understand and address perceptions accordingly. | |||
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"Assuming fab is a representation of the real world, fag packet farage doesn't seem to have a lot of support That's why Reform have a 9 point lead in the opinion polls. The lefty parties are now a minority in this country, thankfully "The lefty parties have always been a small minority. | |||
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"Assuming fab is a representation of the real world, fag packet farage doesn't seem to have a lot of support That's why Reform have a 9 point lead in the opinion polls. The lefty parties are now a minority in this country, thankfully "He has struck gold with the migrant rhetoric Starmer is a lawyer and QC so there’s no easy fix on small boats or mass deportations. There will be no Labour majority in four years time and tories are dead. | |||
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" After labours attack on pensioners, farmers and the disabled I don’t think reform will have to convince anybody of anything. And immigration another convenient target. All own goals for Labour. And what will reform do ? Just print more money ? The "attack" on pensioners was well discussed, those that would have "needed" the fuel allowance would still have got it. The "disabled" benefits scam needs addressing to ensure sufficient support is there for those who GENUINELY need help. Farmers I agree about inheritance tax, but it was Nigel and Boris that promised farmers they would be better off out of the EU and those pesky EU grants would be replaced with much more generous offers. Now, where were we ? Starmers record: Fishing = sold down the river. Farmers = Screwed them over. Pensioners = R0bbed. Disabled = R0bbed. National security = In turmoil. Free speech = Gone. Safety of women and girls = Gone. National identity = Gone. And don't even start me on the Chagos Island deal. Absolute scumbag of a prime minister and party, the rest are no better either so you wonder why the majority are now on the side of Reform. Mr F. " Let's have a little look at your points Fishing = sold down the river. The fishing quote for UK fishermen remains largely unchanged after the EU reset deal Farmers = Screwed them over. Most farmers are suffering because they lost EU subsidies which haven't been replaced and have suffered trade barriers since Brexit Pensioners = R0bbed. Pensions haven't changed in the last 2 years except for the triple lock increases. Correct me if I'm wrong. But it's scandalous that pensioners on 100k a year get fuel benefits that could have been much better used to support those truly in need. Disabled = R0bbed. Disabled benefits haven't changed, much to the disappointment of many as the system is being scammed left right and centre. National security = In turmoil. Been the case for decades or more and will be a lot worse if the UK was to leave the ECHR which would end extradition treaties probably world wide Free speech = Gone. Free speech is protected under the human rights conventions that farage wants to scrap (think about that one) Safety of women and girls = Gone. 9% of women over 16 have been abused in England and Wales. Disgusting however operation Soteria has led to a 28% increase in detection and charge rates for r@pe up to 2023 a positive National identity = Gone. National identity and it's expression is protected by amongst other things the human rights (ECHR section 10) | |||
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" After labours attack on pensioners, farmers and the disabled I don’t think reform will have to convince anybody of anything. And immigration another convenient target. All own goals for Labour. And what will reform do ? Just print more money ? The "attack" on pensioners was well discussed, those that would have "needed" the fuel allowance would still have got it. The "disabled" benefits scam needs addressing to ensure sufficient support is there for those who GENUINELY need help. Farmers I agree about inheritance tax, but it was Nigel and Boris that promised farmers they would be better off out of the EU and those pesky EU grants would be replaced with much more generous offers. Now, where were we ? Starmers record: Fishing = sold down the river. Farmers = Screwed them over. Pensioners = R0bbed. Disabled = R0bbed. National security = In turmoil. Free speech = Gone. Safety of women and girls = Gone. National identity = Gone. And don't even start me on the Chagos Island deal. Absolute scumbag of a prime minister and party, the rest are no better either so you wonder why the majority are now on the side of Reform. Mr F. Absolute rubbish Please point out which parts are absolute rubbish? All complete facts. Mr F. Don’t hold your breath, they haven’t got a valid argument, they will simply call you names and make a bunch of crass accusations. None of their arguments are based on facts, and like the shysters in government they will attempt to answer questions with questions. If you haven’t found out whom is unworthy of any trust on this forum, you soon will. That's right. Just make up any old horseshit. Then tell people they have to prove it wrong. Then start insulting anyone a micron to the left of Heinrich Himmler. Here we go, accusation of being a Nazi! Try again Two Bob, I ain’t no fucking Nazi. Just a working class Brit who’s had enough. It’s taken some time, but guess what, the worm is turning. More and more of us are standing up to be counted, and the man whose life’s work has made this possible, is ,of course, Nigel Farage. I suppose we also have the Libtards to thank, because your arrogance has made it all the more easy. The abuse leveled at anyone to the right of Jeremy Corbyn, has been laughable, I mean, is that the best you can do? Anyway, out movement is continuing to pick up pace, while all of the others are grinding to a halt. So while you lot are trying so hard to upset us, the majority of us will ignore you. While we prepare for government, ha ha ha!
You're right. More and more people are being convinced that immigrants are causing all their problems.
Not sure why you're proud of that. "It's really sad seeing the UK come to this sorry state degraded by Farage  | |||
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"Assuming fab is a representation of the real world, fag packet farage doesn't seem to have a lot of support He absolutely does, the left wing echo chambers are awash with anti Farage messaging. He picks up more mainstream support, because he actually starts to sound reasonable compared to the insults the left throw bout like confetti. I see why this happens, the anger and ridiculous name calling / comments, also makes me consider the left wing to be far from where rationale debate is happening, as you say representative of this forum. The insults are thrown by both sides of the political spectrum. Its not a preserve of those to the left. " I’m talking specifically about the insults from the left towards Farage..... These are usually the same people who claim the right are gullible, taken in by GB News, donors or media spin, but they "parrot the same lines", the same words, over and over without realising they are also being taken along for the ride. Throwing around fascist, racist, Nazi, bigot in every sentence doesn’t strengthen the case against Farage, it weakens it. With flag removals now being the next big thing, you can see how copycat social media outrage pushes them even further into the thing they think they are immune to. What the left wing copycats struggle to realise is this language and copycat action only strengthens Farage’s voice, they won’t see it until it’s too late. | |||
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" National identity = Gone. " whose national identity?. is this just an englisg thing? where i live there's an extremely strong sense of national identity thanks very much | |||
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" National identity = Gone. whose national identity?. is this just an englisg thing? where i live there's an extremely strong sense of national identity thanks very much "Yeah funny innit? The Welsh are encouraged to have national identity and be proud of it, as are the Scottish and Irish. It doesn’t work like that here in good old England. We are literally encouraged to be ashamed, and to love everyone’s national traditions, but not our own. Prior to the current raise the flag operation, you would only see our flags during the World Cup etc. It’s great to see them flying now, but the authorities will just keep taking them down and no doubt burning them. | |||
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" National identity = Gone. whose national identity?. is this just an englisg thing? where i live there's an extremely strong sense of national identity thanks very much
Yeah funny innit? The Welsh are encouraged to have national identity and be proud of it, as are the Scottish and Irish. It doesn’t work like that here in good old England. We are literally encouraged to be ashamed, and to love everyone’s national traditions, but not our own.
Prior to the current raise the flag operation, you would only see our flags during the World Cup etc. It’s great to see them flying now, but the authorities will just keep taking them down and no doubt burning them. "Yep - you have to feel sorry for the poor English according to a lot of people on here! | |||
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" National identity = Gone. whose national identity?. is this just an englisg thing? where i live there's an extremely strong sense of national identity thanks very much
Yeah funny innit? The Welsh are encouraged to have national identity and be proud of it, as are the Scottish and Irish. It doesn’t work like that here in good old England. We are literally encouraged to be ashamed, and to love everyone’s national traditions, but not our own.
Prior to the current raise the flag operation, you would only see our flags during the World Cup etc. It’s great to see them flying now, but the authorities will just keep taking them down and no doubt burning them. "Do people base their national identity on the number of flags they see? They can't have a very strong sense of national identity. | |||
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" National identity = Gone. whose national identity?. is this just an englisg thing? where i live there's an extremely strong sense of national identity thanks very much
Yeah funny innit? The Welsh are encouraged to have national identity and be proud of it, as are the Scottish and Irish. It doesn’t work like that here in good old England. We are literally encouraged to be ashamed, and to love everyone’s national traditions, but not our own.
Prior to the current raise the flag operation, you would only see our flags during the World Cup etc. It’s great to see them flying now, but the authorities will just keep taking them down and no doubt burning them. "Watched Quo’s 2009 Glastonbury’s set. St George’s and Union Jack flags everywhere. Rick Parfitts guitar painted in Union Jack colours, if he were alive and playing today I wonder if the guitar artwork would be acceptable. | |||
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" National identity = Gone. whose national identity?. is this just an englisg thing? where i live there's an extremely strong sense of national identity thanks very much
Yeah funny innit? The Welsh are encouraged to have national identity and be proud of it, as are the Scottish and Irish. It doesn’t work like that here in good old England. We are literally encouraged to be ashamed, and to love everyone’s national traditions, but not our own.
Prior to the current raise the flag operation, you would only see our flags during the World Cup etc. It’s great to see them flying now, but the authorities will just keep taking them down and no doubt burning them.
Do people base their national identity on the number of flags they see?
They can't have a very strong sense of national identity."The flag is national identity... Do you think George Cross flags should be taken down? | |||
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" National identity = Gone. whose national identity?. is this just an englisg thing? where i live there's an extremely strong sense of national identity thanks very much
Yeah funny innit? The Welsh are encouraged to have national identity and be proud of it, as are the Scottish and Irish. It doesn’t work like that here in good old England. We are literally encouraged to be ashamed, and to love everyone’s national traditions, but not our own.
Prior to the current raise the flag operation, you would only see our flags during the World Cup etc. It’s great to see them flying now, but the authorities will just keep taking them down and no doubt burning them. "so after a thousand years you think that your national identity is solely a cloth on on a lampost .... that's probably where you english are going wrong chap. | |||
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" It’s great to see them flying now, but the authorities will just keep taking them down and no doubt burning them. " How many times have you flown a flag in the last 12 months and how often have they been taken away and burned ? | |||
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" National identity = Gone. whose national identity?. is this just an englisg thing? where i live there's an extremely strong sense of national identity thanks very much
Yeah funny innit? The Welsh are encouraged to have national identity and be proud of it, as are the Scottish and Irish. It doesn’t work like that here in good old England. We are literally encouraged to be ashamed, and to love everyone’s national traditions, but not our own.
Prior to the current raise the flag operation, you would only see our flags during the World Cup etc. It’s great to see them flying now, but the authorities will just keep taking them down and no doubt burning them.
Do people base their national identity on the number of flags they see?
They can't have a very strong sense of national identity.
The flag is national identity...
"Bizarre. My sense of national identity is completely unrelated to see, or not seeing flags. " Do you think George Cross flags should be taken down? " No strong feelings. | |||
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"Anything that injects some new culture and (let’s face it) much needed intellect into this country’s populous instead of the petri-dish of close minded backward thinkers that we currently seem to be breeding, is a good thing. " Don't be so hard on yourself! | |||
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"Pretty obvious to me the next GE will be fought on a rejoin or not rejoin agenda. Labour are engineering rejoin economy and it will be up to voters to decide if they want to undo all the things labour have put in place which will appear to be hugely expensive as everything in our economy will have been moved to the left. We are going through the process right now with labour undoing all the Traditional ways of governance and placing a "woke " state in place that they thing will be impossible to undo if Reform are elected. We are pretty well done for no matter what. " And people say that GBNews et al, isn't effecting the electorate! | |||
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" National identity = Gone. whose national identity?. is this just an englisg thing? where i live there's an extremely strong sense of national identity thanks very much
Yeah funny innit? The Welsh are encouraged to have national identity and be proud of it, as are the Scottish and Irish. It doesn’t work like that here in good old England. We are literally encouraged to be ashamed, and to love everyone’s national traditions, but not our own.
Prior to the current raise the flag operation, you would only see our flags during the World Cup etc. It’s great to see them flying now, but the authorities will just keep taking them down and no doubt burning them.
Do people base their national identity on the number of flags they see?
They can't have a very strong sense of national identity.
The flag is national identity...
Bizarre. My sense of national identity is completely unrelated to see, or not seeing flags.
Do you think George Cross flags should be taken down?
No strong feelings. "That is a rather strange position for you to be in ref national identity, and one you must have formed yourself. What do associate your national identity to? | |||
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" National identity = Gone. whose national identity?. is this just an englisg thing? where i live there's an extremely strong sense of national identity thanks very much
Yeah funny innit? The Welsh are encouraged to have national identity and be proud of it, as are the Scottish and Irish. It doesn’t work like that here in good old England. We are literally encouraged to be ashamed, and to love everyone’s national traditions, but not our own.
Prior to the current raise the flag operation, you would only see our flags during the World Cup etc. It’s great to see them flying now, but the authorities will just keep taking them down and no doubt burning them.
Do people base their national identity on the number of flags they see?
They can't have a very strong sense of national identity.
The flag is national identity...
Bizarre. My sense of national identity is completely unrelated to see, or not seeing flags.
Do you think George Cross flags should be taken down?
No strong feelings.
That is a rather strange position for you to be in ref national identity, and one you must have formed yourself. What do associate your national identity to? "I find it rather strange that people tie their national identity to inanimate object. And I find even more strange that you think it's strange that my sense of national identity isn't based on a flag. To answer your question, I don't attach my national identity to any object or flag. | |||
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"Pretty obvious to me the next GE will be fought on a rejoin or not rejoin agenda." Too soon. Come back in ten years. | |||
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" National identity = Gone. whose national identity?. is this just an englisg thing? where i live there's an extremely strong sense of national identity thanks very much
Yeah funny innit? The Welsh are encouraged to have national identity and be proud of it, as are the Scottish and Irish. It doesn’t work like that here in good old England. We are literally encouraged to be ashamed, and to love everyone’s national traditions, but not our own.
Prior to the current raise the flag operation, you would only see our flags during the World Cup etc. It’s great to see them flying now, but the authorities will just keep taking them down and no doubt burning them.
Do people base their national identity on the number of flags they see?
They can't have a very strong sense of national identity.
The flag is national identity...
Bizarre. My sense of national identity is completely unrelated to see, or not seeing flags.
Do you think George Cross flags should be taken down?
No strong feelings.
That is a rather strange position for you to be in ref national identity, and one you must have formed yourself. What do associate your national identity to?
I find it rather strange that people tie their national identity to inanimate object.
And I find even more strange that you think it's strange that my sense of national identity isn't based on a flag.
To answer your question, I don't attach my national identity to any object or flag.
"If you don’t tie your national identity to any object or flag, basically your national identity doesn’t exist. That would explain why you find it confusing when others talk about theirs. Do you think having a national identity is something that you shouldn't be proud of, is it too close to a patriot for you to be comfortable with? | |||
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"Pretty obvious to me the next GE will be fought on a rejoin or not rejoin agenda. Too soon. Come back in ten years." Maybe not a rejoin agenda, however Farage is turning it into a leave or remain choice ref the ECHR. Comfortable ground for him and nightmare for the big 2. | |||
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" National identity = Gone. whose national identity?. is this just an englisg thing? where i live there's an extremely strong sense of national identity thanks very much
Yeah funny innit? The Welsh are encouraged to have national identity and be proud of it, as are the Scottish and Irish. It doesn’t work like that here in good old England. We are literally encouraged to be ashamed, and to love everyone’s national traditions, but not our own.
Prior to the current raise the flag operation, you would only see our flags during the World Cup etc. It’s great to see them flying now, but the authorities will just keep taking them down and no doubt burning them.
Do people base their national identity on the number of flags they see?
They can't have a very strong sense of national identity.
The flag is national identity...
Bizarre. My sense of national identity is completely unrelated to see, or not seeing flags.
Do you think George Cross flags should be taken down?
No strong feelings.
That is a rather strange position for you to be in ref national identity, and one you must have formed yourself. What do associate your national identity to?
I find it rather strange that people tie their national identity to inanimate object.
And I find even more strange that you think it's strange that my sense of national identity isn't based on a flag.
To answer your question, I don't attach my national identity to any object or flag.
If you don’t tie your national identity to any object or flag, basically your national identity doesn’t exist. That would explain why you find it confusing when others talk about theirs.
Do you think having a national identity is something that you shouldn't be proud of, is it too close to a patriot for you to be comfortable with? "I Honestly have no concept of a national identity being attached to an arbitrary object. That doesn't seem like national identity to me. | |||
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" National identity = Gone. whose national identity?. is this just an englisg thing? where i live there's an extremely strong sense of national identity thanks very much
Yeah funny innit? The Welsh are encouraged to have national identity and be proud of it, as are the Scottish and Irish. It doesn’t work like that here in good old England. We are literally encouraged to be ashamed, and to love everyone’s national traditions, but not our own.
Prior to the current raise the flag operation, you would only see our flags during the World Cup etc. It’s great to see them flying now, but the authorities will just keep taking them down and no doubt burning them.
Do people base their national identity on the number of flags they see?
They can't have a very strong sense of national identity.
The flag is national identity...
Bizarre. My sense of national identity is completely unrelated to see, or not seeing flags.
Do you think George Cross flags should be taken down?
No strong feelings.
That is a rather strange position for you to be in ref national identity, and one you must have formed yourself. What do associate your national identity to?
I find it rather strange that people tie their national identity to inanimate object.
And I find even more strange that you think it's strange that my sense of national identity isn't based on a flag.
To answer your question, I don't attach my national identity to any object or flag.
If you don’t tie your national identity to any object or flag, basically your national identity doesn’t exist. That would explain why you find it confusing when others talk about theirs.
Do you think having a national identity is something that you shouldn't be proud of, is it too close to a patriot for you to be comfortable with?
I Honestly have no concept of a national identity being attached to an arbitrary object. That doesn't seem like national identity to me."In that case you’re massively out of step. Every nation on Earth (I think) has a flag, anthem and traditions. Your personal feelings don’t change how national identity is formed and respected worldwide. | |||
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" National identity = Gone. whose national identity?. is this just an englisg thing? where i live there's an extremely strong sense of national identity thanks very much
Yeah funny innit? The Welsh are encouraged to have national identity and be proud of it, as are the Scottish and Irish. It doesn’t work like that here in good old England. We are literally encouraged to be ashamed, and to love everyone’s national traditions, but not our own.
Prior to the current raise the flag operation, you would only see our flags during the World Cup etc. It’s great to see them flying now, but the authorities will just keep taking them down and no doubt burning them.
Do people base their national identity on the number of flags they see?
They can't have a very strong sense of national identity.
The flag is national identity...
Bizarre. My sense of national identity is completely unrelated to see, or not seeing flags.
Do you think George Cross flags should be taken down?
No strong feelings.
That is a rather strange position for you to be in ref national identity, and one you must have formed yourself. What do associate your national identity to?
I find it rather strange that people tie their national identity to inanimate object.
And I find even more strange that you think it's strange that my sense of national identity isn't based on a flag.
To answer your question, I don't attach my national identity to any object or flag.
If you don’t tie your national identity to any object or flag, basically your national identity doesn’t exist. That would explain why you find it confusing when others talk about theirs.
Do you think having a national identity is something that you shouldn't be proud of, is it too close to a patriot for you to be comfortable with?
I Honestly have no concept of a national identity being attached to an arbitrary object. That doesn't seem like national identity to me.
In that case you’re massively out of step. Every nation on Earth (I think) has a flag, anthem and traditions. Your personal feelings don’t change how national identity is formed and respected worldwide."Fair play. I understand every country has a flag. Can't see why that's what national identity is based on, rather than on the country itself. Countries change flags from time to time. That must cause immense confusion to those people who base their sense of national identity on the flag. | |||
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"If you don’t tie your national identity to any object or flag, basically your national identity doesn’t exist. That would explain why you find it confusing when others talk about theirs." This sounds really weird to me. Identity is an idea of being something, usually being a member of a group. It's a relational abstraction that is not at all dependent on objects. We all have multifaceted identities. I can't think of any object or flag that my identities are directly tied to. "Do you think having a national identity is something that you shouldn't be proud of, is it too close to a patriot for you to be comfortable with?" I feel fortunate and even grateful for being a UK citizen as I like this country and feel I represent a tiny part of it. Being proud of being a UK citizen slightly implies boastfulness though - as if the UK is a great place because I'm part of it. Yes, the UK has a flag but it's just a symbol. It's not intrinsic to my relationship with the country or my pleasure in being a citizen. If flags didn't exist national identity wouldn't disappear. | |||
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"If you don’t tie your national identity to any object or flag, basically your national identity doesn’t exist. That would explain why you find it confusing when others talk about theirs. This sounds really weird to me. Identity is an idea of being something, usually being a member of a group. It's a relational abstraction that is not at all dependent on objects. We all have multifaceted identities. I can't think of any object or flag that my identities are directly tied to. Do you think having a national identity is something that you shouldn't be proud of, is it too close to a patriot for you to be comfortable with? I feel fortunate and even grateful for being a UK citizen as I like this country and feel I represent a tiny part of it. Being proud of being a UK citizen slightly implies boastfulness though - as if the UK is a great place because I'm part of it. Yes, the UK has a flag but it's just a symbol. It's not intrinsic to my relationship with the country or my pleasure in being a citizen. If flags didn't exist national identity wouldn't disappear. " The conversation moved on with JTN. But you do seem to have the same outlook on "national identity" as in you don't have one that the majority would consider a national identity. You and JTN seem to try and distance yourselves from anything remotely national and symbolic, which must be a constant headache when it comes to any type of world sporting event. However it does explain why others who may feel the same way don't understand the anger they cause by pulling down the countries national flag. | |||
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"If you don’t tie your national identity to any object or flag, basically your national identity doesn’t exist. That would explain why you find it confusing when others talk about theirs. This sounds really weird to me. Identity is an idea of being something, usually being a member of a group. It's a relational abstraction that is not at all dependent on objects. We all have multifaceted identities. I can't think of any object or flag that my identities are directly tied to. Do you think having a national identity is something that you shouldn't be proud of, is it too close to a patriot for you to be comfortable with? I feel fortunate and even grateful for being a UK citizen as I like this country and feel I represent a tiny part of it. Being proud of being a UK citizen slightly implies boastfulness though - as if the UK is a great place because I'm part of it. Yes, the UK has a flag but it's just a symbol. It's not intrinsic to my relationship with the country or my pleasure in being a citizen. If flags didn't exist national identity wouldn't disappear. The conversation moved on with JTN. But you do seem to have the same outlook on "national identity" as in you don't have one that the majority would consider a national identity. You and JTN seem to try and distance yourselves from anything remotely national and symbolic, which must be a constant headache when it comes to any type of world sporting event. However it does explain why others who may feel the same way don't understand the anger they cause by pulling down the countries national flag." Pulling down the countries national flag ? As an NI person I would definitely say that the English are a very patriotic proud nation. | |||
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"The conversation moved on with JTN. But you do seem to have the same outlook on "national identity" as in you don't have one that the majority would consider a national identity. You and JTN seem to try and distance yourselves from anything remotely national and symbolic, which must be a constant headache when it comes to any type of world sporting event. However it does explain why others who may feel the same way don't understand the anger they cause by pulling down the countries national flag." I have no problem with people using a symbol to signal their national identity but if someone thinks that the symbol is their national identity then they have an extremely impoverished view of their national identity. | |||
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"The conversation moved on with JTN. But you do seem to have the same outlook on "national identity" as in you don't have one that the majority would consider a national identity. You and JTN seem to try and distance yourselves from anything remotely national and symbolic, which must be a constant headache when it comes to any type of world sporting event. However it does explain why others who may feel the same way don't understand the anger they cause by pulling down the countries national flag. I have no problem with people using a symbol to signal their national identity but if someone thinks that the symbol is their national identity then they have an extremely impoverished view of their national identity. " If you really had no problem with people using a symbol of national identity, you would have stopped there. The fact you carried on suggests you’re being a little disingenuous. | |||
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" I have no problem with people using a symbol to signal their national identity but if someone thinks that the symbol is their national identity then they have an extremely impoverished view of their national identity. " that is a very accurate statement | |||
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"If you don’t tie your national identity to any object or flag, basically your national identity doesn’t exist. That would explain why you find it confusing when others talk about theirs. This sounds really weird to me. Identity is an idea of being something, usually being a member of a group. It's a relational abstraction that is not at all dependent on objects. We all have multifaceted identities. I can't think of any object or flag that my identities are directly tied to. Do you think having a national identity is something that you shouldn't be proud of, is it too close to a patriot for you to be comfortable with? I feel fortunate and even grateful for being a UK citizen as I like this country and feel I represent a tiny part of it. Being proud of being a UK citizen slightly implies boastfulness though - as if the UK is a great place because I'm part of it. Yes, the UK has a flag but it's just a symbol. It's not intrinsic to my relationship with the country or my pleasure in being a citizen. If flags didn't exist national identity wouldn't disappear. The conversation moved on with JTN. But you do seem to have the same outlook on "national identity" as in you don't have one that the majority would consider a national identity. You and JTN seem to try and distance yourselves from anything remotely national and symbolic, which must be a constant headache when it comes to any type of world sporting event. However it does explain why others who may feel the same way don't understand the anger they cause by pulling down the countries national flag. Pulling down the countries national flag ? As an NI person I would definitely say that the English are a very patriotic proud nation." There are some who are not patriotic, and are imposing their beliefs on others. | |||
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" I have no problem with people using a symbol to signal their national identity but if someone thinks that the symbol is their national identity then they have an extremely impoverished view of their national identity. that is a very accurate statement "It's usually these people that bang on about both how much they love their country AND how many of their fellow countrymen they hate. Lefties, the "woke", Muslims, environmentalists, tofu eaters, poor people, homeless people, etc etc. | |||
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" There are some who are not patriotic, and are imposing their beliefs on others." there are also some just imposing their beliefs on others and it's unkown if they are patriotic or not .... exlempified by the the very recent incidents of grafitti across wales where the perpetrators are daubing english flags and swastikas along with the message vote reform ... it'll probably prompt most to do exactly the opposite though. | |||
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" There are some who are not patriotic, and are imposing their beliefs on others. there are also some just imposing their beliefs on others and it's unkown if they are patriotic or not .... exlempified by the the very recent incidents of grafitti across wales where the perpetrators are daubing english flags and swastikas along with the message vote reform ... it'll probably prompt most to do exactly the opposite though." There are fools on both sides of the line, but it appears that there are elements of the left that are applying a wide brushstroke towards anyone who flies a George Cross. You can see it on this thread, there is very little tolerance towards others, and both sides blames the other, when they are both as bad as one another. | |||
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"If you don’t tie your national identity to any object or flag, basically your national identity doesn’t exist. That would explain why you find it confusing when others talk about theirs. This sounds really weird to me. Identity is an idea of being something, usually being a member of a group. It's a relational abstraction that is not at all dependent on objects. We all have multifaceted identities. I can't think of any object or flag that my identities are directly tied to. Do you think having a national identity is something that you shouldn't be proud of, is it too close to a patriot for you to be comfortable with? I feel fortunate and even grateful for being a UK citizen as I like this country and feel I represent a tiny part of it. Being proud of being a UK citizen slightly implies boastfulness though - as if the UK is a great place because I'm part of it. Yes, the UK has a flag but it's just a symbol. It's not intrinsic to my relationship with the country or my pleasure in being a citizen. If flags didn't exist national identity wouldn't disappear. The conversation moved on with JTN. But you do seem to have the same outlook on "national identity" as in you don't have one that the majority would consider a national identity. You and JTN seem to try and distance yourselves from anything remotely national and symbolic, which must be a constant headache when it comes to any type of world sporting event. However it does explain why others who may feel the same way don't understand the anger they cause by pulling down the countries national flag. Pulling down the countries national flag ? As an NI person I would definitely say that the English are a very patriotic proud nation. There are some who are not patriotic, and are imposing their beliefs on others." Are you talking about Muslim beliefs or LGBT or something else ? | |||
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" There are some who are not patriotic, and are imposing their beliefs on others. there are also some just imposing their beliefs on others and it's unkown if they are patriotic or not .... exlempified by the the very recent incidents of grafitti across wales where the perpetrators are daubing english flags and swastikas along with the message vote reform ... it'll probably prompt most to do exactly the opposite though. There are fools on both sides of the line, but it appears that there are elements of the left that are applying a wide brushstroke towards anyone who flies a George Cross. You can see it on this thread, there is very little tolerance towards others, and both sides blames the other, when they are both as bad as one another. " it's a shame but i think it's more the fact that the english have lost touch with any postitve sense of their culture and are now wallowing in a mire of very negative self pity .... perhaps they'll sort themselves out one day, but it doesn't look like it will be anytime soon going from the worsening garbage being posted across social media these days. | |||
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" There are some who are not patriotic, and are imposing their beliefs on others. there are also some just imposing their beliefs on others and it's unkown if they are patriotic or not .... exlempified by the the very recent incidents of grafitti across wales where the perpetrators are daubing english flags and swastikas along with the message vote reform ... it'll probably prompt most to do exactly the opposite though. There are fools on both sides of the line, but it appears that there are elements of the left that are applying a wide brushstroke towards anyone who flies a George Cross. You can see it on this thread, there is very little tolerance towards others, and both sides blames the other, when they are both as bad as one another. it's a shame but i think it's more the fact that the english have lost touch with any postitve sense of their culture and are now wallowing in a mire of very negative self pity .... perhaps they'll sort themselves out one day, but it doesn't look like it will be anytime soon going from the worsening garbage being posted across social media these days. " I think it's because English national pride is based on Christianity and the Monarchy and nowadays it seems to be more and more people hate anything to do with either which makes it difficult to find something to align to ? | |||
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" There are some who are not patriotic, and are imposing their beliefs on others. there are also some just imposing their beliefs on others and it's unkown if they are patriotic or not .... exlempified by the the very recent incidents of grafitti across wales where the perpetrators are daubing english flags and swastikas along with the message vote reform ... it'll probably prompt most to do exactly the opposite though. There are fools on both sides of the line, but it appears that there are elements of the left that are applying a wide brushstroke towards anyone who flies a George Cross. You can see it on this thread, there is very little tolerance towards others, and both sides blames the other, when they are both as bad as one another. it's a shame but i think it's more the fact that the english have lost touch with any postitve sense of their culture and are now wallowing in a mire of very negative self pity .... perhaps they'll sort themselves out one day, but it doesn't look like it will be anytime soon going from the worsening garbage being posted across social media these days. I think it's because English national pride is based on Christianity and the Monarchy and nowadays it seems to be more and more people hate anything to do with either which makes it difficult to find something to align to ?" You would think it was the whole of England and it feels like it at times. However it isn't, its minority groups that are very vocal, angry and love nothing more than using social media to spread their nonsense. | |||
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" There are some who are not patriotic, and are imposing their beliefs on others. there are also some just imposing their beliefs on others and it's unkown if they are patriotic or not .... exlempified by the the very recent incidents of grafitti across wales where the perpetrators are daubing english flags and swastikas along with the message vote reform ... it'll probably prompt most to do exactly the opposite though. There are fools on both sides of the line, but it appears that there are elements of the left that are applying a wide brushstroke towards anyone who flies a George Cross. You can see it on this thread, there is very little tolerance towards others, and both sides blames the other, when they are both as bad as one another. it's a shame but i think it's more the fact that the english have lost touch with any postitve sense of their culture and are now wallowing in a mire of very negative self pity .... perhaps they'll sort themselves out one day, but it doesn't look like it will be anytime soon going from the worsening garbage being posted across social media these days. I think it's because English national pride is based on Christianity and the Monarchy and nowadays it seems to be more and more people hate anything to do with either which makes it difficult to find something to align to ?" i wouldn't say hate, it's more that last vestiges of norman fuedalism represented by monarchy, the church and the aristocracy are now completely irrelevant and people just aren't interested. all that's left is churchill, two world wars and one world cup .... and they're completely irrelevant too. | |||
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" There are some who are not patriotic, and are imposing their beliefs on others. there are also some just imposing their beliefs on others and it's unkown if they are patriotic or not .... exlempified by the the very recent incidents of grafitti across wales where the perpetrators are daubing english flags and swastikas along with the message vote reform ... it'll probably prompt most to do exactly the opposite though. There are fools on both sides of the line, but it appears that there are elements of the left that are applying a wide brushstroke towards anyone who flies a George Cross. You can see it on this thread, there is very little tolerance towards others, and both sides blames the other, when they are both as bad as one another. it's a shame but i think it's more the fact that the english have lost touch with any postitve sense of their culture and are now wallowing in a mire of very negative self pity .... perhaps they'll sort themselves out one day, but it doesn't look like it will be anytime soon going from the worsening garbage being posted across social media these days. I think it's because English national pride is based on Christianity and the Monarchy and nowadays it seems to be more and more people hate anything to do with either which makes it difficult to find something to align to ? i wouldn't say hate, it's more that last vestiges of norman fuedalism represented by monarchy, the church and the aristocracy are now completely irrelevant and people just aren't interested. all that's left is churchill, two world wars and one world cup .... and they're completely irrelevant too." Yes hate is the wrong word However, it's your history, your heritage and your national identity so why can't it be celebrated for what it was if not what it is ? Maybe it is, I don't know, maybe England has always been such a mish mash of ancestry its difficult to find something to cling to. | |||
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" I think it's because English national pride is based on Christianity and the Monarchy and nowadays it seems to be more and more people hate anything to do with either which makes it difficult to find something to align to ?" Subjugation over decades, denial of rights and the fundamental right to decide who 'represents' them actually a protected class who only looked after themselves is not pride, it's conditioning similar to an abused coerced victim.. Recognition of such things is not hatred, not is not participating in a belief system.. | |||
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" I think it's because English national pride is based on Christianity and the Monarchy and nowadays it seems to be more and more people hate anything to do with either which makes it difficult to find something to align to ? Subjugation over decades, denial of rights and the fundamental right to decide who 'represents' them actually a protected class who only looked after themselves is not pride, it's conditioning similar to an abused coerced victim.. Recognition of such things is not hatred, not is not participating in a belief system.. " And you have tolerance for those that do support the monarchy ? | |||
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"Not going to happen Nigel. Just another back of cigarette packet half baked thought. Good Friday Agreement voted on by people of Ireland north and south. Nationalist parties not interested nor will the Government of Ireland. If Nige wants to cut NI loose that's fine but don't interfere in an international agreement. It belongs to the people of Ireland. Peace is too precious." I think you will find that Reforn are riding high in the opinion polls. Have you checked them recently. In any event opinion polls suggest that the majority of people in Northern Ireland are against a United Ireland. ? The Good Friday agreement was simply a surrender to terrorism. Had the government held its ground the IRA would have been defeated. The acts that they committed were vile and repulsive. | |||
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" I think it's because English national pride is based on Christianity and the Monarchy and nowadays it seems to be more and more people hate anything to do with either which makes it difficult to find something to align to ? Subjugation over decades, denial of rights and the fundamental right to decide who 'represents' them actually a protected class who only looked after themselves is not pride, it's conditioning similar to an abused coerced victim.. Recognition of such things is not hatred, not is not participating in a belief system.. And you have tolerance for those that do support the monarchy ?" Why wouldn't I..? I'm referring to the past in relation to the monarchy, in it's current form it needs overhauling certainly but it's not as bad as it used to be.. | |||
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"Not going to happen Nigel. Just another back of cigarette packet half baked thought. Good Friday Agreement voted on by people of Ireland north and south. Nationalist parties not interested nor will the Government of Ireland. If Nige wants to cut NI loose that's fine but don't interfere in an international agreement. It belongs to the people of Ireland. Peace is too precious." This.. | |||
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" Had the government held its ground the IRA would have been defeated. The acts that they committed were vile and repulsive. " No they wouldn't have, more innocent people on both sides would have died in the province and over here too.. Both sides had terrorists and commited vile acts .. But the majority didn't and now live in a more prosperous and peaceful society and that should be treasured and protected.. | |||
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"Not going to happen Nigel. Just another back of cigarette packet half baked thought. Good Friday Agreement voted on by people of Ireland north and south. Nationalist parties not interested nor will the Government of Ireland. If Nige wants to cut NI loose that's fine but don't interfere in an international agreement. It belongs to the people of Ireland. Peace is too precious. I think you will find that Reforn are riding high in the opinion polls. Have you checked them recently. In any event opinion polls suggest that the majority of people in Northern Ireland are against a United Ireland. ? The Good Friday agreement was simply a surrender to terrorism. Had the government held its ground the IRA would have been defeated. The acts that they committed were vile and repulsive. " Not sure what you are on about. Doesn't matter if they're high in opinion polls. A Reform govt will not renegotiate the GFA. Obviously you know nothing about it if you think it was a surrender to terrorism. The govt couldn't defeat the IRA over thirty years of troubles. What makes you think they could defeat them today if they were still in existence. | |||
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" Had the government held its ground the IRA would have been defeated. The acts that they committed were vile and repulsive. No they wouldn't have, more innocent people on both sides would have died in the province and over here too.. Both sides had terrorists and commited vile acts .. But the majority didn't and now live in a more prosperous and peaceful society and that should be treasured and protected.." . The IRA murdered in excess of 1700 people compared to circa 400 by loyalists. The IRA only came to the negotiating table because they were facing a heavy defeat. Had we waited a year or two and taken a much harder line they would have been defeated in any event. | |||
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" Had the government held its ground the IRA would have been defeated. The acts that they committed were vile and repulsive. No they wouldn't have, more innocent people on both sides would have died in the province and over here too.. Both sides had terrorists and commited vile acts .. But the majority didn't and now live in a more prosperous and peaceful society and that should be treasured and protected... The IRA murdered in excess of 1700 people compared to circa 400 by loyalists. The IRA only came to the negotiating table because they were facing a heavy defeat. Had we waited a year or two and taken a much harder line they would have been defeated in any event. " Is this speculation, or is there evidence for your viewpoint? Genuinely interested. | |||
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" Had the government held its ground the IRA would have been defeated. The acts that they committed were vile and repulsive. No they wouldn't have, more innocent people on both sides would have died in the province and over here too.. Both sides had terrorists and commited vile acts .. But the majority didn't and now live in a more prosperous and peaceful society and that should be treasured and protected... The IRA murdered in excess of 1700 people compared to circa 400 by loyalists. The IRA only came to the negotiating table because they were facing a heavy defeat. Had we waited a year or two and taken a much harder line they would have been defeated in any event. Is this speculation, or is there evidence for your viewpoint? Genuinely interested. " Grossly speculative I would think | |||
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"Not going to happen Nigel. Just another back of cigarette packet half baked thought. Good Friday Agreement voted on by people of Ireland north and south. Nationalist parties not interested nor will the Government of Ireland. If Nige wants to cut NI loose that's fine but don't interfere in an international agreement. It belongs to the people of Ireland. Peace is too precious. I think you will find that Reforn are riding high in the opinion polls. Have you checked them recently. In any event opinion polls suggest that the majority of people in Northern Ireland are against a United Ireland. ? The Good Friday agreement was simply a surrender to terrorism. Had the government held its ground the IRA would have been defeated. The acts that they committed were vile and repulsive. Not sure what you are on about. Doesn't matter if they're high in opinion polls. A Reform govt will not renegotiate the GFA. Obviously you know nothing about it if you think it was a surrender to terrorism. The govt couldn't defeat the IRA over thirty years of troubles. What makes you think they could defeat them today if they were still in existence. " .I Most people would pay attention to opinion polls. They reflect what the public think. The IRA were defeated and only came to the negotiating table because their campaigns failed. Most people rejected their ideas. They were simply thugs and criminals who used violence and intimidation. They even murdered a Catholic mother of ten for speaking to a soldier. | |||
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