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"I just wanted to ask the question to those who are not moved to support the Palestinian people suffering right now in Gaza, why? I see and hear of dead children and I am kept up at night at the thought, how can we live in such a heartless world? Thousands of children have been murdered and seemingly our government don’t seem to care" The government does care. The approved sales of F-35 parts to aid in the mass slaughter. £££ | |||
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"I just wanted to ask the question to those who are not moved to support the Palestinian people suffering right now in Gaza, why? I see and hear of dead children and I am kept up at night at the thought, how can we live in such a heartless world? Thousands of children have been murdered and seemingly our government don’t seem to care The government does care. The approved sales of F-35 parts to aid in the mass slaughter. £££" 518 RAF sortees run for IDF to identify targets to bomb. | |||
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"I just wanted to ask the question to those who are not moved to support the Palestinian people suffering right now in Gaza, why? I see and hear of dead children and I am kept up at night at the thought, how can we live in such a heartless world? Thousands of children have been murdered and seemingly our government don’t seem to care" They don't care for the hostages either. | |||
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"I just wanted to ask the question to those who are not moved to support the Palestinian people suffering right now in Gaza, why? I see and hear of dead children and I am kept up at night at the thought, how can we live in such a heartless world? Thousands of children have been murdered and seemingly our government don’t seem to care" if you are sincerely saying the loss of life in Gaza keeps you awake at night then do not look at the child mortality rates in the third world.. Which has been going on for a lot longer.. the deaths of innocents are needless and preventable to a point in conflict but is this more a thread about the deaths of Palestinians and not child mortality? | |||
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"I just wanted to ask the question to those who are not moved to support the Palestinian people suffering right now in Gaza, why? I see and hear of dead children and I am kept up at night at the thought, how can we live in such a heartless world? Thousands of children have been murdered and seemingly our government don’t seem to care The government does care. The approved sales of F-35 parts to aid in the mass slaughter. £££" They have shown where their care is I agree | |||
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"France will become the 148th UN member to recognise Palestine as a state in September. I think it's just about possible that the UK government are putting pressure on the Israeli government behind the scenes, threatening to do likewise if the situation in Gaza doesn't change for the better in the next few weeks. " Probably driven by guilt of assisting with the Israeli bombing of Gaza | |||
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"In relation to the question of supporting the Palestinians how do you think OP we should do so if that's what we decide ?" Stop selling arms to Israel. Call for an immediate ceasefire. Implore Israel to allow humanitarian aid to SAFELY be provided to the people of Gaza. There are literally people in hospital because they were shot for attempting to get aid. They’re being DELIBERATELY starved, and collectively punished | |||
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"I just wanted to ask the question to those who are not moved to support the Palestinian people suffering right now in Gaza, why? I see and hear of dead children and I am kept up at night at the thought, how can we live in such a heartless world? Thousands of children have been murdered and seemingly our government don’t seem to care if you are sincerely saying the loss of life in Gaza keeps you awake at night then do not look at the child mortality rates in the third world.. Which has been going on for a lot longer.. the deaths of innocents are needless and preventable to a point in conflict but is this more a thread about the deaths of Palestinians and not child mortality?" I think it’s the fact that the children in Gaza are being murdered and shot. I just can’t get my head around that | |||
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"France will become the 148th UN member to recognise Palestine as a state in September. I think it's just about possible that the UK government are putting pressure on the Israeli government behind the scenes, threatening to do likewise if the situation in Gaza doesn't change for the better in the next few weeks. " Another gesture the government will make when it’s too late!! | |||
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"I just wanted to ask the question to those who are not moved to support the Palestinian people suffering right now in Gaza, why? I see and hear of dead children and I am kept up at night at the thought, how can we live in such a heartless world? Thousands of children have been murdered and seemingly our government don’t seem to care The government does care. The approved sales of F-35 parts to aid in the mass slaughter. £££ They have shown where their care is I agree " The opportunity to make money is more important than the lives of innocent men, women and children. The government should be ashamed. | |||
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"Kneecap completed a 10km run on each day of their UK tour, raising more than £30,000, which went toward food kits for families in Palestine Starmer forgot that when he tried to ban them from Glastonbury " I don’t think he forgot. I suggest to you that he knew exactly what he was doing. | |||
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"I just wanted to ask the question to those who are not moved to support the Palestinian people suffering right now in Gaza, why? I see and hear of dead children and I am kept up at night at the thought, how can we live in such a heartless world? Thousands of children have been murdered and seemingly our government don’t seem to care They don't care for the hostages either." Clearly they do, they’re arming Israel and the PM previously stated on record he believed Israel had the right to commit war crimes. The collective punishment of the people in Gaza is a war crime. | |||
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"I just wanted to ask the question to those who are not moved to support the Palestinian people suffering right now in Gaza, why? I see and hear of dead children and I am kept up at night at the thought, how can we live in such a heartless world? Thousands of children have been murdered and seemingly our government don’t seem to care The government does care. The approved sales of F-35 parts to aid in the mass slaughter. £££ They have shown where their care is I agree The opportunity to make money is more important than the lives of innocent men, women and children. The government should be ashamed." Many people’s pensions will invested in BAE, retiring on the proceeds of death | |||
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"In relation to the question of supporting the Palestinians how do you think OP we should do so if that's what we decide ? Stop selling arms to Israel. Call for an immediate ceasefire. Implore Israel to allow humanitarian aid to SAFELY be provided to the people of Gaza. There are literally people in hospital because they were shot for attempting to get aid. They’re being DELIBERATELY starved, and collectively punished" Won't happen.. They have .. They won't listen whilst trump has their back.. I know.. | |||
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"200 countries on the globe. Nobody anywhere come to there aid. " These things happen around the world too. The Palestine issue gets better media coverage. Countries don't interfere in these matters unless they get some benefit out of it. That's just the harsh truth. You ask about the plight of Uyghurs, they don't get such a level of support because no one wants to fight with China. | |||
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"I believe in the next week or so the number of Palestinians killed by the IDF while queuing for food from GHF sites will exceed the number of Israelis killed in the October 2023 atrocities." Israel would kill everyone in Gaza if they could. And Hamas everyone in Israel | |||
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"I believe in the next week or so the number of Palestinians killed by the IDF while queuing for food from GHF sites will exceed the number of Israelis killed in the October 2023 atrocities. Israel would kill everyone in Gaza if they could. And Hamas everyone in Israel " This is the reason why many countries prefer not to get involved in this. If you go in and hold Israel's hands, you cannot guarantee that Hamas will not hit back at Israem. In fact, they definitely will hit back at Israel and people who held Israel's hands would end up taking partial responsibility for that. | |||
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"In relation to the question of supporting the Palestinians how do you think OP we should do so if that's what we decide ? Stop selling arms to Israel. Call for an immediate ceasefire. Implore Israel to allow humanitarian aid to SAFELY be provided to the people of Gaza. There are literally people in hospital because they were shot for attempting to get aid. They’re being DELIBERATELY starved, and collectively punished Won't happen.. They have .. They won't listen whilst trump has their back.. I know.." This is why people take to protesting. | |||
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"I just wanted to ask the question to those who are not moved to support the Palestinian people suffering right now in Gaza, why? I see and hear of dead children and I am kept up at night at the thought, how can we live in such a heartless world? Thousands of children have been murdered and seemingly our government don’t seem to care They don't care for the hostages either. Clearly they do, they’re arming Israel and the PM previously stated on record he believed Israel had the right to commit war crimes. The collective punishment of the people in Gaza is a war crime. " You do know the pm has a person writing that stuff for him to say, I know he says it but he doesn't like what comes out of his own mouth, the island of stranger's one example. | |||
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"In relation to the question of supporting the Palestinians how do you think OP we should do so if that's what we decide ? Stop selling arms to Israel. Call for an immediate ceasefire. Implore Israel to allow humanitarian aid to SAFELY be provided to the people of Gaza. There are literally people in hospital because they were shot for attempting to get aid. They’re being DELIBERATELY starved, and collectively punished Won't happen.. They have .. They won't listen whilst trump has their back.. I know.. This is why people take to protesting. " I know.. And as long as they stay within the law it's all fine.. Whatever their issue..  | |||
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"Israel isn't going to achieve peace and security by outdoing Hamas on the war crimes front. A two-state solution is the only way forward, even though it will be extremely difficult. " They're not looking to achieve peace in the near future, clearing the West Bank and dividing Gaza into more controlled and smaller areas is possibly part of their long term security plan.. | |||
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"In relation to the question of supporting the Palestinians how do you think OP we should do so if that's what we decide ? Stop selling arms to Israel. Call for an immediate ceasefire. Implore Israel to allow humanitarian aid to SAFELY be provided to the people of Gaza. There are literally people in hospital because they were shot for attempting to get aid. They’re being DELIBERATELY starved, and collectively punished Won't happen.. They have .. They won't listen whilst trump has their back.. I know.. This is why people take to protesting. I know.. And as long as they stay within the law it's all fine.. Whatever their issue.. "The problem with that is, the law keeps moving to restrict the freedom to protest. | |||
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"They're not looking to achieve peace in the near future, clearing the West Bank and dividing Gaza into more controlled and smaller areas is possibly part of their long term security plan." I'm not claiming that the Israeli government is aiming to achieve a two-state solution. Their immediate goal appears to be to lock up two million people inside a camp built on the ruins of Rafah. | |||
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"They're not looking to achieve peace in the near future, clearing the West Bank and dividing Gaza into more controlled and smaller areas is possibly part of their long term security plan. I'm not claiming that the Israeli government is aiming to achieve a two-state solution. Their immediate goal appears to be to lock up two million people inside a camp built on the ruins of Rafah. " And starve them | |||
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"Israel isn't going to achieve peace and security by outdoing Hamas on the war crimes front. A two-state solution is the only way forward, even though it will be extremely difficult. " Israel will not be giving back the territory formerly occupied by Gazans. | |||
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"They're not looking to achieve peace in the near future, clearing the West Bank and dividing Gaza into more controlled and smaller areas is possibly part of their long term security plan. I'm not claiming that the Israeli government is aiming to achieve a two-state solution. Their immediate goal appears to be to lock up two million people inside a camp built on the ruins of Rafah. " I didn't say you were? There won't be one in my opinion.. | |||
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"Israel isn't going to achieve peace and security by outdoing Hamas on the war crimes front. A two-state solution is the only way forward, even though it will be extremely difficult. " Do you think Hamas will stop attacking Israel after this two state solution? | |||
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"Much depends on Trump. Is he sufficiently pro-Israeli that he'll support Netanyahu no matter what? Will he be able to bribe the Egyptian government with enough to get them to build a camp in the Sinai? If they agree it wouldn't be the end of things and it would cause enormous difficulties for Egypt. Personally I think the tide of world-wide opnion has turned. The Israeli government has revealed too much about itself. Other countries will follow France in September. probably not the UK and obviously not the USA but if the Israeli government continues on its current path it will become more and more marginalized until only the US will support it and Israel will never have peace and security. The other path for Israel is two-states. I think it's still in the balance and the next six months will be critical." I suspect it'll eventually end with the survivors in a camp somewhere, basically a larger scale version of what's in Western Sahara for the Sahrawi refugees. Where they'll probably be left indefinitely. | |||
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"Do you think Hamas will stop attacking Israel after this two state solution?" AFAIK they've said they would, but whether they would stick to their word is another matter. A two-state solution would have to be based on de-militarization of Palestine (for at least a few decades) and a considerable UN peacekeeping force. There's nothing easy about a two-state solution but it's the only way that Israelis are going to get peace and security. | |||
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" I suspect it'll eventually end with the survivors in a camp somewhere, basically a larger scale version of what's in Western Sahara for the Sahrawi refugees. Where they'll probably be left indefinitely." Very possibly. And when Palestinians leave, people stop caring about them. Like the 3383 Palestinian civilians who were killed in Syria with not a shred of protest. That's why it's important to keep them under Israeli occupation - that's the only way you can get people to care about them. | |||
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"Do you think Hamas will stop attacking Israel after this two state solution? AFAIK they've said they would, but whether they would stick to their word is another matter. A two-state solution would have to be based on de-militarization of Palestine (for at least a few decades) and a considerable UN peacekeeping force. There's nothing easy about a two-state solution but it's the only way that Israelis are going to get peace and security." Opinion polls in Israel suggest Israeli support for a two state solution is between around 21% to 40% and declining. The same is true for Palestinians. It’s not Israeli government policy either. The Israelis don’t believe it will provide them with any peace or security. If they don’t believe it themselves why would they listen to people who live a world away who have no skin in the game? If it goes wrong the Israelis all die. Macron will have a nice lunch and pose about something else. Who is going to enforce this two state solution on unwilling participants? It’s a total non starter. | |||
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"Do you think Hamas will stop attacking Israel after this two state solution? AFAIK they've said they would, but whether they would stick to their word is another matter. A two-state solution would have to be based on de-militarization of Palestine (for at least a few decades) and a considerable UN peacekeeping force. There's nothing easy about a two-state solution but it's the only way that Israelis are going to get peace and security." Hamas has openly mentioned many times about destruction of Israel and Jews. So trust them blindly would be laughably stupid. Your de-militarization strategy works with countries waging head-on battle. It doesn't work with terrorists waging guerilla warfare. | |||
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"Do you think Hamas will stop attacking Israel after this two state solution? AFAIK they've said they would, but whether they would stick to their word is another matter. A two-state solution would have to be based on de-militarization of Palestine (for at least a few decades) and a considerable UN peacekeeping force. There's nothing easy about a two-state solution but it's the only way that Israelis are going to get peace and security. Opinion polls in Israel suggest Israeli support for a two state solution is between around 21% to 40% and declining. The same is true for Palestinians. It’s not Israeli government policy either. The Israelis don’t believe it will provide them with any peace or security. If they don’t believe it themselves why would they listen to people who live a world away who have no skin in the game? If it goes wrong the Israelis all die. Macron will have a nice lunch and pose about something else. Who is going to enforce this two state solution on unwilling participants? It’s a total non starter." Exactly! People in Europe today don't understand what it is to live next to groups who would attack and kill you at every opportunity. So they can sit on the moral high horse and give away simplistic solutions because none of this is going to affect them anyway. | |||
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" I suspect it'll eventually end with the survivors in a camp somewhere, basically a larger scale version of what's in Western Sahara for the Sahrawi refugees. Where they'll probably be left indefinitely. Very possibly. And when Palestinians leave, people stop caring about them. Like the 3383 Palestinian civilians who were killed in Syria with not a shred of protest. That's why it's important to keep them under Israeli occupation - that's the only way you can get people to care about them." Lots of people care about the Sahrawi refugees. World governments and the media don't care because there's no money to be made either way. | |||
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"I just wanted to ask the question to those who are not moved to support the Palestinian people suffering right now in Gaza, why? " Nobody on this forum supports Palestinian people suffering. " I see and hear of dead children and I am kept up at night at the thought, how can we live in such a heartless world? Thousands of children have been murdered and seemingly our government don’t seem to care" The suffering is senseless and horrid and the war needs to stop. 
They have been horrifically let down by their protectors, most notably Hamas. How any regime can start and maintain a war when the people whom they purport to represent are suffering so much is a testament to the twisted ideology driving them. Is prolonging this really worth it for Hamas? The answer is yes, because ultimately Israel has now got a shredded credibility around the world and the Palestinians are closer to having an internationally recognised state. It cost a few tens of thousands of deaths to achieve that. Grim, but it makes them proud, clearly. As always, the innocents and powerless are the most affected (although it's a good job that many of the lead terrorists, murderers and rapists were eliminated).
Clearly, Hamas, or whatever passes for a government today, thinks it's a price worth paying. Madness. | |||
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" Lots of people care about the Sahrawi refugees. World governments and the media don't care because there's no money to be made either way. " A bit like how oil-rich countries needed democracy imposed upon them more than others... | |||
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"I just wanted to ask the question to those who are not moved to support the Palestinian people suffering right now in Gaza, why? Nobody on this forum supports Palestinian people suffering. " This is not true. One guy openly called for ethnic cleansing, one guy a while back advocated for every single Palestinian in Gaza to be killed or "pushed into the sea". The pro-mass slaughter rhetoric has died down over the past year. But it's still here. | |||
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" Lots of people care about the Sahrawi refugees. World governments and the media don't care because there's no money to be made either way. A bit like how oil-rich countries needed democracy imposed upon them more than others..." 100% | |||
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"I just wanted to ask the question to those who are not moved to support the Palestinian people suffering right now in Gaza, why? Nobody on this forum supports Palestinian people suffering. This is not true. One guy openly called for ethnic cleansing, one guy a while back advocated for every single Palestinian in Gaza to be killed or "pushed into the sea". The pro-mass slaughter rhetoric has died down over the past year. But it's still here." Come to think of it, you're right. We do get the odd nutter. | |||
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"I've heard the "if two-states went wrong all Israelis would die" line being used many times by people attempting to justify war crimes. " Who said all Israelis will die? Sounds like a strawman argument. | |||
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"call me heartless. slag me off all you want. " Your post doesn't seem heartless, just confused and misinformed. " but im sick and tired of people caring more about others who dont give a fuck about us than what is happening in this country. " People in Gaza probably aren't really thinking much about what's going on in the UK, they have enough on their plates. " we have our on invasion going on with children being abused by these invaders left right and centre. " Simply not true, we're not being invaded. Although if you're describing asylum seekers as "invaders" then that is problematic. " people coming here braking the law and getting put up in hotels with credit cards etc with allownaces on them,steal from shops, work illegally, attack children because where they are from its normal practice. " Trump? Not sure he's attacking children though. " start giving a shit about this country instead of others who hae us in the first place. " Lots of us do give a shit, the country is overrun with Reform voters, and people that spend all day watching media that tells them foreigners are causing all their problems. " hamas couldnt careless about the suffering of others same with israel. " Not sure how this is related to either people caring about genocide, or people caring about the uk. " i dont care what anyone thinks but problems in this country matter more to me. if you dont like that go to palestine and help them " What would British people being in Palestine do to help? " instead of beating a drum no one really give a toss about. " Plenty of people are opposed to what's going on in Gaza, isn't that the point of your post? " its their problem. being going on for years. never solved once. " Not sure why this would mean that people shouldn't care? " we here come first." Where? | |||
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"Who said all Israelis will die? Sounds like a strawman argument." About one hour before your post on this thread... "If it goes wrong the Israelis all die." But it's commonplace. It's just a variation on what has been the standard Likud line on the two-states solution since about ten years before Hamas was founded. | |||
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"Who said all Israelis will die? Sounds like a strawman argument. About one hour before your post on this thread... "If it goes wrong the Israelis all die." But it's commonplace. It's just a variation on what has been the standard Likud line on the two-states solution since about ten years before Hamas was founded. " Sure "All Israelis will die" is an exaggeration unless Hamas gets access to nuclear weapons. If they do, that's a real possibility. But either way, what exactly does the two state "solution" solve when you can't guarantee that Hamas won't attack Israel again? | |||
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"The UN is complicit in the suffering - arguably as complicit as Hamas. They are meant to be politically neutral, but are helping Hamas to use civilians as pawns. Food that is meant to be free is being sold at grossly inflated prices. Aid trucks have been commandeered by Hamas and food intended for free distribution have appeared for sale in markets - often under the watch of UNRWA workers. We already know that least a dozen UNRWA staff members were directly involved in the 7 October Hamas attacks, including roles in kidnpping and logistics. Not to mention the Hamas tunnel found beneath UNRWA's Gaza headquarters, with power cables, internet lines, and ventilation shafts connecting directly to the building’s infrastructure. There are currently 950 truckloads of aid sitting inside Gaza, approved by Israel and not moving, because the UN do not want to cooperate with the GHF. Why would they not want that? Because it would stop Hamas from profiting. If you have any compassion for the kids in Gaza, then the pressure on Hamas to release the hostages and surrender should be greater than ever. " The UN has been a joke for years now. They had Saudi Arabia lead women's rights forum and gave Pakistan the Vice Chairman role in anti-terrorism committee. I don't know why anyone would take that circus of an organisation seriously. | |||
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"Sure "All Israelis will die" is an exaggeration unless Hamas gets access to nuclear weapons. If they do, that's a real possibility. But either way, what exactly does the two state "solution" solve when you can't guarantee that Hamas won't attack Israel again?" One might think of Hamas as being a bit like the old IRA. There are different wings. Some are just nutters intent on killing people. Others might be a bit more pragmatic. This pragmatism is still pretty extreme but it's a place to start if one is serious about finding peace. In 2017 they published a new charter to replace the really terrible old one. In the new charter the important bit is Article 20: "20. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus." This is still a hell of a long way from an acceptance of a two-state solution but it's a starting point where a terrorist organisation are effectively hinting that they might call a semi-permanent ceasefire. At least that's how I interpreted the coded phrase "national consensus". Using the NI analogy I see this pretty similar to how the IRA shifted ground. We could go into more debate about positions on both sides but what I would ask first is - what is the alternative to a two-state solution? What would total victory for Israel look like? | |||
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"Wouldn't you think at this stage Hamas would hand over their arms and surrender to stop the killing of their innocent friends and family. " These innocent friends and family were cheering in the streets when Israeli women were butchered by Hamas. | |||
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" One might think of Hamas as being a bit like the old IRA. There are different wings. Some are just nutters intent on killing people. Others might be a bit more pragmatic. " That's a lot of optimism on your part which doesn't match the reality at all. Saying there are "pragmatic" Hamas members is as far from the truth as it gets. There are pragmatic Palestinians, not pragmatic Hamas members. Also comparing IRA with Hamas is not right. One of them asks for the complete destruction of a country and have even shown all signs of having genocidal views. " This is still a hell of a long way from an acceptance of a two-state solution but it's a starting point where a terrorist organisation are effectively hinting that they might call a semi-permanent ceasefire. At least that's how I interpreted the coded phrase "national consensus". " Again, an over-optimistic interpretation of what's said. They have openly claimed that they do not want Israel to exist. If you give them a country to settle down, they would take it. But given their ultimate goals, they would just go and attack Israel again. Will the Western countries take responsibility for the death of Israel people if they force a two-state solution and this happens? " We could go into more debate about positions on both sides but what I would ask first is - what is the alternative to a two-state solution? What would total victory for Israel look like?" There is no solution unless the people in either countries stop hating each other. If they do it, a two-state system will be an outcome. The two-state system is not a solution when the people still hate each other. All you need is one attack from either side before they descend into where it is now. If you try to force a solution, you will only come out with blood in your own hands. | |||
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"If you try to force a solution, you will only come out with blood in your own hands." You haven't answered my question. What would total victory for Israel look like? | |||
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"If you try to force a solution, you will only come out with blood in your own hands. You haven't answered my question. What would total victory for Israel look like?" Israel's victory would be when they can guarantee that they are safe. | |||
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"Israel's victory would be when they can guarantee that they are safe." And Netanyahu's party Likud have said since 1977 that this can't be achieved if the Palestinians have their own state, so what do you think the consequence of this position is? | |||
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"The UN is complicit in the suffering - arguably as complicit as Hamas. They are meant to be politically neutral, but are helping Hamas to use civilians as pawns. Food that is meant to be free is being sold at grossly inflated prices. Aid trucks have been commandeered by Hamas and food intended for free distribution have appeared for sale in markets - often under the watch of UNRWA workers. We already know that least a dozen UNRWA staff members were directly involved in the 7 October Hamas attacks, including roles in kidnpping and logistics. Not to mention the Hamas tunnel found beneath UNRWA's Gaza headquarters, with power cables, internet lines, and ventilation shafts connecting directly to the building’s infrastructure. There are currently 950 truckloads of aid sitting inside Gaza, approved by Israel and not moving, because the UN do not want to cooperate with the GHF. Why would they not want that? Because it would stop Hamas from profiting. If you have any compassion for the kids in Gaza, then the pressure on Hamas to release the hostages and surrender should be greater than ever. " You’ve said lots of prop that I’ve read come out of Israel that even reputable news sources dispute- like that the amount of aid in Israel is actually enough to feed the people of Gaza. But anyway, what’s that got to do with children being shot or people being shot when collecting aid? Are you going to condemn Israel at all? Or are you just going to pretend that everyone is at fault but them? | |||
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"If you try to force a solution, you will only come out with blood in your own hands. You haven't answered my question. What would total victory for Israel look like? Israel's victory would be when they can guarantee that they are safe. " There’s more to it than that | |||
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"Israel's victory would be when they can guarantee that they are safe. And Netanyahu's party Likud have said since 1977 that this can't be achieved if the Palestinians have their own state, so what do you think the consequence of this position is? " It could be continuous war from Israel to keep targeting terrorists. Yes, that will result in civilian casualties. But when it comes to self defense, no one cares about morality | |||
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"UK, France and Germany have called for an immediate end to ‘humanitarian catastrophe’ in Gaza and say Israel must lift aid restrictions Uk of course has already assisted in the bombing by identifying the targets for the IDF. " Better to have confirmed targets than indiscriminate bombing though | |||
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"It could be continuous war from Israel to keep targeting terrorists. Yes, that will result in civilian casualties. But when it comes to self defense, no one cares about morality." But clearly such a situation wouldn't be total victory for Israel. Most supporters of the Israeli government struggle to answer my question because it requires a painful intellectual leap. Either they've never thought deeply about the question or the answer to what total victory for Israel would look like is too uncomfortable to face. | |||
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"It could be continuous war from Israel to keep targeting terrorists. Yes, that will result in civilian casualties. But when it comes to self defense, no one cares about morality. But clearly such a situation wouldn't be total victory for Israel. Most supporters of the Israeli government struggle to answer my question because it requires a painful intellectual leap. Either they've never thought deeply about the question or the answer to what total victory for Israel would look like is too uncomfortable to face. " Why is it not a victory? Israel doesn't want any attack on them? If what they are doing now continuously keeps them safe, it's a victory. | |||
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"Why is it not a victory? Israel doesn't want any attack on them? If what they are doing now continuously keeps them safe, it's a victory." If you think what they are doing now counts as total victory then you are even more "out there" than most supporters of the Israeli government. | |||
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"Why is it not a victory? Israel doesn't want any attack on them? If what they are doing now continuously keeps them safe, it's a victory. If you think what they are doing now counts as total victory then you are even more "out there" than most supporters of the Israeli government. " What does victory mean to you? It's to achieve a goal. The goal here is safety from any attacks by Hamas. They can get that safety if they keep doing what they are doing. Geopolitics is not a football game where you score a few goals and claim "total victory" | |||
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"Israel's victory would be when they can guarantee that they are safe. And Netanyahu's party Likud have said since 1977 that this can't be achieved if the Palestinians have their own state, so what do you think the consequence of this position is? It could be continuous war from Israel to keep targeting terrorists. Yes, that will result in civilian casualties. But when it comes to self defense, no one cares about morality " It will result in children being killed. Who doesn’t care? Do you care? | |||
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"What does victory mean to you? It's to achieve a goal. The goal here is safety from any attacks by Hamas. They can get that safety if they keep doing what they are doing. Geopolitics is not a football game where you score a few goals and claim "total victory"" I'm asking supporters of the Israeli government to answer what total victory for "their side" would look like in their own view. Your answer appears to be what's happening now. Which frankly sounds completely delusional. I know what total victory would look like for the Israeli government as they've made it clear. I'm not interested in total victory for the Palestinians. I think the best outcome would be a two-state solution where the Palestinians gain sovereignty and the Israelis gain security and world-wide respect for stepping back from the abyss. | |||
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"Israel's victory would be when they can guarantee that they are safe. And Netanyahu's party Likud have said since 1977 that this can't be achieved if the Palestinians have their own state, so what do you think the consequence of this position is? It could be continuous war from Israel to keep targeting terrorists. Yes, that will result in civilian casualties. But when it comes to self defense, no one cares about morality It will result in children being killed. Who doesn’t care? Do you care?" Is it bad? Yes. Is there an alternative? No. Do you have a solution that guarantees Israel's safety from Hamas? | |||
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" I'm asking supporters of the Israeli government to answer what total victory for "their side" would look like in their own view. Your answer appears to be what's happening now. Which frankly sounds completely delusional. " You have been asking this question and pretending like no one has been able to answer. Here I answered your question and all you can respond with is that it "sounds completely delusional". I have answered your question and also explained why that would be victory for Israel. It's up to you to explain why it is not a victory. " I know what total victory would look like for the Israeli government as they've made it clear. " Really? What is it? " I'm not interested in total victory for the Palestinians. I think the best outcome would be a two-state solution from the abyss. " Two-state system isn't a solution. It's an outcome you get if you establish peace between the two. There is no point in drawing an imaginary line and setting borders when one of the states wants to destroy the other at all costs. " where the Palestinians gain sovereignty and the Israelis gain security " Can you guarantee Israel security? If Hamas even attacks Israel once after that, will you be able to take responsibility for the the deaths and r&pes? " and world-wide respect for stepping back " No one gives a fuck about "world wide respect". It's just a few people in the western world who have strong opinions about this. Most other countries in the world are just minding their own business. | |||
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"You’ve said lots of prop that I’ve read come out of Israel that even reputable news sources dispute- like that the amount of aid in Israel is actually enough to feed the people of Gaza. But anyway, what’s that got to do with children being shot or people being shot when collecting aid? Are you going to condemn Israel at all? Or are you just going to pretend that everyone is at fault but them? " I don't expect you to be doing any deep analysis on any of this, which is half the problem - most people just lap up legacy media without investigating their sources. Mainstream news sources are relying on Hamas, who filter all information coming out of Gaza - it's messy, biased and needs a lot of digging into to uncover what's really going on. Hamas are shooting people in queues, attacking GHF workers and beating people before they even get to the food queues - because they need to retain control of the supply for their profits and to control the people, which is why they are ramping up the violence and the propaganda that blames Israel for the violence. The more the west believes the hype, the more Hamas thinks they can win, and this just prolongs the war further. | |||
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"You’ve said lots of prop that I’ve read come out of Israel that even reputable news sources dispute- like that the amount of aid in Israel is actually enough to feed the people of Gaza. But anyway, what’s that got to do with children being shot or people being shot when collecting aid? Are you going to condemn Israel at all? Or are you just going to pretend that everyone is at fault but them? I don't expect you to be doing any deep analysis on any of this, which is half the problem - most people just lap up legacy media without investigating their sources. Mainstream news sources are relying on Hamas, who filter all information coming out of Gaza - it's messy, biased and needs a lot of digging into to uncover what's really going on. Hamas are shooting people in queues, attacking GHF workers and beating people before they even get to the food queues - because they need to retain control of the supply for their profits and to control the people, which is why they are ramping up the violence and the propaganda that blames Israel for the violence. The more the west believes the hype, the more Hamas thinks they can win, and this just prolongs the war further." you’re saying all this like journalists and doctors and aid workers aren’t going to Gaza and telling us what they’ve seen. | |||
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"The idf would not be in gaza if there were no Israeli hostages being held captive by hamas." Unbelievable. Are people genuinely this unaware of the situation prior to the recent escalation? | |||
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"The idf would not be in gaza if there were no Israeli hostages being held captive by hamas. Unbelievable. Are people genuinely this unaware of the situation prior to the recent escalation?" Is that what we call a pogrom nowadays, an “escalation”? | |||
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"The idf would not be in gaza if there were no Israeli hostages being held captive by hamas. Unbelievable. Are people genuinely this unaware of the situation prior to the recent escalation? Is that what we call a pogrom nowadays, an “escalation”? " Exactly what I was going to ask 
"Escalation" is such an interesting word to call such a brutal terrorist attack | |||
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"The idf would not be in gaza if there were no Israeli hostages being held captive by hamas. Unbelievable. Are people genuinely this unaware of the situation prior to the recent escalation?" Isreal is unwavering in their commitment to retrieve all the hostages, I'm sure they have stated this on numerous occasions. | |||
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"The idf would not be in gaza if there were no Israeli hostages being held captive by hamas. Unbelievable. Are people genuinely this unaware of the situation prior to the recent escalation? Isreal is unwavering in their commitment to retrieve all the hostages, I'm sure they have stated this on numerous occasions." This statement is unrelated to your previous inaccurate statement. | |||
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"Israel's victory would be when they can guarantee that they are safe. And Netanyahu's party Likud have said since 1977 that this can't be achieved if the Palestinians have their own state, so what do you think the consequence of this position is? It could be continuous war from Israel to keep targeting terrorists. Yes, that will result in civilian casualties. But when it comes to self defense, no one cares about morality It will result in children being killed. Who doesn’t care? Do you care? Is it bad? Yes. Is there an alternative? No. Do you have a solution that guarantees Israel's safety from Hamas?" It’s worse than bad. And supporters of Israel are valuing some lives more than others. Innocent children are being shot and starved and you’re like ‘there’s no alternative’. Do you hear how grotesque that is?! By the way collective punishment is a war crime. | |||
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"Israel's victory would be when they can guarantee that they are safe. And Netanyahu's party Likud have said since 1977 that this can't be achieved if the Palestinians have their own state, so what do you think the consequence of this position is? It could be continuous war from Israel to keep targeting terrorists. Yes, that will result in civilian casualties. But when it comes to self defense, no one cares about morality It will result in children being killed. Who doesn’t care? Do you care? Is it bad? Yes. Is there an alternative? No. Do you have a solution that guarantees Israel's safety from Hamas? It’s worse than bad. And supporters of Israel are valuing some lives more than others. Innocent children are being shot and starved and you’re like ‘there’s no alternative’. Do you hear how grotesque that is?! By the way collective punishment is a war crime. " I am not valuing some lives more than others. But from an Israeli perspective, their own lives are more important than others just like how Palestinians would value their own lives over Israeli lives. If you want to stop Israel from attacking, you need to give an alternate solution that guarantees their safety. No one in their position would go back and wait for yet another terror attack that kills their own people just because some Western people found it offensive. | |||
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"I just wanted to ask the question to those who are not moved to support the Palestinian people suffering right now in Gaza, why? I see and hear of dead children and I am kept up at night at the thought, how can we live in such a heartless world? Thousands of children have been murdered and seemingly our government don’t seem to care" You reap what you sow. | |||
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"I just wanted to ask the question to those who are not moved to support the Palestinian people suffering right now in Gaza, why? I see and hear of dead children and I am kept up at night at the thought, how can we live in such a heartless world? Thousands of children have been murdered and seemingly our government don’t seem to care You reap what you sow. " What did the innocent children sow? | |||
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"Israel's victory would be when they can guarantee that they are safe. And Netanyahu's party Likud have said since 1977 that this can't be achieved if the Palestinians have their own state, so what do you think the consequence of this position is? It could be continuous war from Israel to keep targeting terrorists. Yes, that will result in civilian casualties. But when it comes to self defense, no one cares about morality It will result in children being killed. Who doesn’t care? Do you care? Is it bad? Yes. Is there an alternative? No. Do you have a solution that guarantees Israel's safety from Hamas? It’s worse than bad. And supporters of Israel are valuing some lives more than others. Innocent children are being shot and starved and you’re like ‘there’s no alternative’. Do you hear how grotesque that is?! By the way collective punishment is a war crime. I am not valuing some lives more than others. But from an Israeli perspective, their own lives are more important than others just like how Palestinians would value their own lives over Israeli lives. If you want to stop Israel from attacking, you need to give an alternate solution that guarantees their safety. No one in their position would go back and wait for yet another terror attack that kills their own people just because some Western people found it offensive. " But again, should it not worry you they don’t find it offensive that they’re killing children. Other countries caring about anything anywhere is probably the only thing stopping genocides happening non stop. Let’s not pretend that the threat of international intervention has no value. It literally does and has for AGES. | |||
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"it all about everything other than Hamas. Try turning the attention on Hamas, and insist they stop throwing Palestinians into harms way. Insist Israel to do the same thing, and balance the landscape. " Nobody thinks hamas are innocent. We think that Israel are indiscriminately killing Palestinians because they know they can and intend to wipe them out. And we think that Israel has no issue killing Palestinian children in the thousands. Over 10,000 children have been killed in the Israeli ‘response’. They are committing war crimes. And to be frank, the idea that Israel will stop because hostages are turned over is hilarious. They have no reason to seen as, like everyone that loves Israel keeps suggesting, Hamas’s existence is the problem. So they will continue to do this until they’re satisfied Hamas have been destroyed- or if we’re being real, until there’s nothing and nobody left in Gaza. I’m not saying that’s Genocide but… | |||
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"I just wanted to ask the question to those who are not moved to support the Palestinian people suffering right now in Gaza, why? I see and hear of dead children and I am kept up at night at the thought, how can we live in such a heartless world? Thousands of children have been murdered and seemingly our government don’t seem to care You reap what you sow. " Can’t imagine what reason you have for believing that Palestinian children deserve this other than justifying a war crime. | |||
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"Israel's victory would be when they can guarantee that they are safe. And Netanyahu's party Likud have said since 1977 that this can't be achieved if the Palestinians have their own state, so what do you think the consequence of this position is? It could be continuous war from Israel to keep targeting terrorists. Yes, that will result in civilian casualties. But when it comes to self defense, no one cares about morality It will result in children being killed. Who doesn’t care? Do you care? Is it bad? Yes. Is there an alternative? No. Do you have a solution that guarantees Israel's safety from Hamas? It’s worse than bad. And supporters of Israel are valuing some lives more than others. Innocent children are being shot and starved and you’re like ‘there’s no alternative’. Do you hear how grotesque that is?! By the way collective punishment is a war crime. I am not valuing some lives more than others. But from an Israeli perspective, their own lives are more important than others just like how Palestinians would value their own lives over Israeli lives. If you want to stop Israel from attacking, you need to give an alternate solution that guarantees their safety. No one in their position would go back and wait for yet another terror attack that kills their own people just because some Western people found it offensive. But again, should it not worry you they don’t find it offensive that they’re killing children. " As I said, I do feel sad about it. But nothing can be done about it because no one can trust Hamas in order to guarantee safety for Israel. " Other countries caring about anything anywhere is probably the only thing stopping genocides happening non stop. Let’s not pretend that the threat of international intervention has no value. It literally does and has for AGES. " Genocides have been happening all over the world. Uyghurs in China, Rohingyas in Myanmar, certain ethnic groups in Sudan, Yazidis and Christians in Syria and more. The Palestine issue just gets better media coverage because the middle eastern countries have vested interests in it. The same middle eastern countries that have death penalty for gays and would rather have other countries "not interfere in their internal matters". | |||
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"That doesn't answer the systemically removal of Palestinians from the West Bank where there is no Hamas,or hostages this was happening pre October 17" Fully agree with you on that. The West Bank settlements need to stop. | |||
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"I've come onto this thread a bit late but here goes. No-one wants to see children being killed and starved and yes, the IDF needs to reel its neck in. They use the hostages as justification but why does Hamas still hang on to them? Surely if Hamas wanted it to end they would release the hostages and sit down and talk. According to US negotiators they are completely unwilling. Or, as I believe to be the case, they are more than happy with the status quo as it keeps their cause on the front pages. What's a few dead Palestinians compared to reaping world sympathy and having Israel castigated? If Hamas released the hostages Israel would have no justification to carry on and world opinion would be much stronger to make them stop. Hamas would then have the problem of being relegated to page 19. Hmmmm." Islamic terrorists are hostages takers, Hamas no different. 1970 Greek Olympic flight, Dawson’s Field in Jordan, Munich olympics, Achille Lauro Hijacking, Entebbe, London embassy siege, a few other examples. Add all the other Islamic butchery a lot of it where jews not specifically targeted, 7/7,9/11, Charlie Hebdo, London Bridge, Boston, Manchester etc | |||
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"The pro Israel lobby here should listen to Nick Maynard an English surgeon talking about the conditions in Gaza this week,and dispute what he says,selective body parts shootings on certain days,banning of baby formula,loads more war crimes as told by him" Our taxes have been used to assist with this killing. 518 raf sortees run for the IDF. Military aircraft parts sold to Israel. Uk pension funds investing in these suppliers. Now after helping to drop bombs, Starmer won’t recognise the Palestinian state, but will drop aid packages apparently. | |||
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"I've come onto this thread a bit late but here goes. No-one wants to see children being killed and starved and yes, the IDF needs to reel its neck in. They use the hostages as justification but why does Hamas still hang on to them? Surely if Hamas wanted it to end they would release the hostages and sit down and talk. According to US negotiators they are completely unwilling. Or, as I believe to be the case, they are more than happy with the status quo as it keeps their cause on the front pages. What's a few dead Palestinians compared to reaping world sympathy and having Israel castigated? If Hamas released the hostages Israel would have no justification to carry on and world opinion would be much stronger to make them stop. Hamas would then have the problem of being relegated to page 19. Hmmmm." Israel’s justification to carry on would be to get rid of the threat of Hamas. They have no reason to stop until they murder everyone in Gaza | |||
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"This is just an observation. On the BBC News there was a woman holding a clearly emaciated and starving child. But oddly, the woman seemed healthy and well fed, plump even. What are we to make of this?" I do not doubt the starvation, Lyse Doucet interviewed this week on this subject said Israel claimed 1100 aid trucks have been sent when bbc verification said 28. | |||
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"I've come onto this thread a bit late but here goes. No-one wants to see children being killed and starved and yes, the IDF needs to reel its neck in. They use the hostages as justification but why does Hamas still hang on to them? Surely if Hamas wanted it to end they would release the hostages and sit down and talk. According to US negotiators they are completely unwilling. Or, as I believe to be the case, they are more than happy with the status quo as it keeps their cause on the front pages. What's a few dead Palestinians compared to reaping world sympathy and having Israel castigated? If Hamas released the hostages Israel would have no justification to carry on and world opinion would be much stronger to make them stop. Hamas would then have the problem of being relegated to page 19. Hmmmm. Israel’s justification to carry on would be to get rid of the threat of Hamas. They have no reason to stop until they murder everyone in Gaza " Gaza has been turned into the 21st century Auschwitz for sure. | |||
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"This is just an observation. On the BBC News there was a woman holding a clearly emaciated and starving child. But oddly, the woman seemed healthy and well fed, plump even. What are we to make of this? I do not doubt the starvation, Lyse Doucet interviewed this week on this subject said Israel claimed 1100 aid trucks have been sent when bbc verification said 28. " Fair enough, but how do you explain that adults are not emaciated as they were in say Biafra and Sudan famines? We have to pray Hamas are not starving kids for the camera. | |||
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"This is just an observation. On the BBC News there was a woman holding a clearly emaciated and starving child. But oddly, the woman seemed healthy and well fed, plump even. What are we to make of this? I do not doubt the starvation, Lyse Doucet interviewed this week on this subject said Israel claimed 1100 aid trucks have been sent when bbc verification said 28. Fair enough, but how do you explain that adults are not emaciated as they were in say Biafra and Sudan famines? We have to pray Hamas are not starving kids for the camera." Islamic butchery around the globe, a lot of it to Muslims, I’d be in no doubt they would do this. | |||
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"Israel can genocide Gaza if it wanted, but chooses not to. Care to guess what would happen if the Palestinians had that choice?" Possibly the weakest attempted justification for the relentless mass slaughter and starvation of innocent men women and children so far. Fair play to you. | |||
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"Israel can genocide Gaza if it wanted, but chooses not to. Care to guess what would happen if the Palestinians had that choice? Possibly the weakest attempted justification for the relentless mass slaughter and starvation of innocent men women and children so far. Fair play to you. "  honestly | |||
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"Israel can genocide Gaza if it wanted, but chooses not to. Care to guess what would happen if the Palestinians had that choice? Possibly the weakest attempted justification for the relentless mass slaughter and starvation of innocent men women and children so far. Fair play to you. " Looks like you don't have an answer and are trying to hide that fact with replies like these | |||
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"it all about everything other than Hamas. Try turning the attention on Hamas, and insist they stop throwing Palestinians into harms way. Insist Israel to do the same thing, and balance the landscape. Nobody thinks hamas are innocent. We think that Israel are indiscriminately killing Palestinians because they know they can and intend to wipe them out. And we think that Israel has no issue killing Palestinian children in the thousands. Over 10,000 children have been killed in the Israeli ‘response’. They are committing war crimes. And to be frank, the idea that Israel will stop because hostages are turned over is hilarious. They have no reason to seen as, like everyone that loves Israel keeps suggesting, Hamas’s existence is the problem. So they will continue to do this until they’re satisfied Hamas have been destroyed- or if we’re being real, until there’s nothing and nobody left in Gaza. I’m not saying that’s Genocide but… " There are no mass protests urging Hamas to stop putting in danger the people they are supposed to protect, to release the hostages, to surrender. Israel haven't stopped the attack on Hamas, and no amount of pro Palestine marches and people calling out Israel has stopped that from happening. Why not call for people to show their anger towards Hamas, maybe it would change the direction this war is headed. | |||
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"it all about everything other than Hamas. Try turning the attention on Hamas, and insist they stop throwing Palestinians into harms way. Insist Israel to do the same thing, and balance the landscape. Nobody thinks hamas are innocent. We think that Israel are indiscriminately killing Palestinians because they know they can and intend to wipe them out. And we think that Israel has no issue killing Palestinian children in the thousands. Over 10,000 children have been killed in the Israeli ‘response’. They are committing war crimes. And to be frank, the idea that Israel will stop because hostages are turned over is hilarious. They have no reason to seen as, like everyone that loves Israel keeps suggesting, Hamas’s existence is the problem. So they will continue to do this until they’re satisfied Hamas have been destroyed- or if we’re being real, until there’s nothing and nobody left in Gaza. I’m not saying that’s Genocide but… There are no mass protests urging Hamas to stop putting in danger the people they are supposed to protect, to release the hostages, to surrender. Israel haven't stopped the attack on Hamas, and no amount of pro Palestine marches and people calling out Israel has stopped that from happening. Why not call for people to show their anger towards Hamas, maybe it would change the direction this war is headed. " And there in lies the problem. Saying one side is better than the other as innocent children die, families get killed for queuing for food and a mass exodus is about to happen before your eyes. Neither the Israeli government, the IDF, Hamas or the American government have any moral high ground in the shit show. Im watching images reminiscent of the WW11 concentration camps and the Balkans war concentration camps. The whole thing is a sorry lookin evil episode and the world will hang its head in shame in years to come. Israel will never be a justified government in my lifetime now because of this and that's wrong! | |||
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" Im watching images reminiscent of the WW11 concentration camps and the Balkans war concentration camps. The whole thing is a sorry lookin evil episode and the world will hang its head in shame in years to come. " The rest of the world including the UN is spineless. It took the UN three and a half years to send peacekeepers to Bosnia after 120,000 people had been killed, so far the Gaza death toll is half that. No more white saviours David Lammy says he’s horrified at the Gaza images, but his government have assisted the IDF bombing with 518 RAF sortees identifying targets. | |||
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"it all about everything other than Hamas. Try turning the attention on Hamas, and insist they stop throwing Palestinians into harms way. Insist Israel to do the same thing, and balance the landscape. Nobody thinks hamas are innocent. We think that Israel are indiscriminately killing Palestinians because they know they can and intend to wipe them out. And we think that Israel has no issue killing Palestinian children in the thousands. Over 10,000 children have been killed in the Israeli ‘response’. They are committing war crimes. And to be frank, the idea that Israel will stop because hostages are turned over is hilarious. They have no reason to seen as, like everyone that loves Israel keeps suggesting, Hamas’s existence is the problem. So they will continue to do this until they’re satisfied Hamas have been destroyed- or if we’re being real, until there’s nothing and nobody left in Gaza. I’m not saying that’s Genocide but… There are no mass protests urging Hamas to stop putting in danger the people they are supposed to protect, to release the hostages, to surrender. Israel haven't stopped the attack on Hamas, and no amount of pro Palestine marches and people calling out Israel has stopped that from happening. Why not call for people to show their anger towards Hamas, maybe it would change the direction this war is headed. " Because the people who are protesting aren't stupid. | |||
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" There are no mass protests urging Hamas to stop. " Correct. Only ones to stop Israel and much of that shut down by government. Kneecap a good example. | |||
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" Im watching images reminiscent of the WW11 concentration camps and the Balkans war concentration camps. The whole thing is a sorry lookin evil episode, and the world will hang its head in shame in years to come. The rest of the world, including the UN, is spineless. It took the UN three and a half years to send peacekeepers to Bosnia after 120,000 people had been killed. So far, the Gaza death toll is half that. No more white saviours David Lammy says he’s horrified at the Gaza images, but his government has assisted the IDF bombing with 518 RAF sortees identifying targets. " The UK government's stance is that the use of drones and sortees is to try and find the hostages. Now you can or can not believe that. It says the parts supplied for the jets are part of a global supply chain and not specifically for Israel. Again, you can make your mind up on that. My only point is that innocent people are dying, it's only a matter of time (and this is probably Israel's end goal) these people become nomadic and become Europe's new immigration problem, potentially dieing in the channel as "illegals". No government is innocent here and we could do a lot lot more. However any UK Governemnt has unfortunately the spectre of the Trump government in its mist. We have already seen open anti Irish investment pushed by the Israeli sympathisers in the Trump admistration, because of their stance on Isriel. It's a shit show and Biden and now Trump enabled the show to role on. Hamas are evil, the current Israeli government is evil. The children, the wife's the husbands of Palestine are the innocent. | |||
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"Don't care Hamas started it, and you're brainwashed if you think they didn't. They are a terror group. If you feel so strongly, pack your bags and GO. !! Maybe you should look around you in the U.K. and see the troubles. "The conflict predates Hamas. Israel killing children should move us all. Sadly it doesn’t seem to. | |||
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"it all about everything other than Hamas. Try turning the attention on Hamas, and insist they stop throwing Palestinians into harms way. Insist Israel to do the same thing, and balance the landscape. Nobody thinks hamas are innocent. We think that Israel are indiscriminately killing Palestinians because they know they can and intend to wipe them out. And we think that Israel has no issue killing Palestinian children in the thousands. Over 10,000 children have been killed in the Israeli ‘response’. They are committing war crimes. And to be frank, the idea that Israel will stop because hostages are turned over is hilarious. They have no reason to seen as, like everyone that loves Israel keeps suggesting, Hamas’s existence is the problem. So they will continue to do this until they’re satisfied Hamas have been destroyed- or if we’re being real, until there’s nothing and nobody left in Gaza. I’m not saying that’s Genocide but… There are no mass protests urging Hamas to stop putting in danger the people they are supposed to protect, to release the hostages, to surrender. Israel haven't stopped the attack on Hamas, and no amount of pro Palestine marches and people calling out Israel has stopped that from happening. Why not call for people to show their anger towards Hamas, maybe it would change the direction this war is headed. And there in lies the problem. Saying one side is better than the other as innocent children die, families get killed for queuing for food and a mass exodus is about to happen before your eyes. Neither the Israeli government, the IDF, Hamas or the American government have any moral high ground in the shit show. Im watching images reminiscent of the WW11 concentration camps and the Balkans war concentration camps. The whole thing is a sorry lookin evil episode and the world will hang its head in shame in years to come. Israel will never be a justified government in my lifetime now because of this and that's wrong! " I haven't said one side is better than the other far from it! I think it is time that both sides were addressed in the same way, if the aim is to protect the people of Gaza. I don't understand why people are taking sides, surely it is both sides at fault, both sides causing the horrors we are hearing about. | |||
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"it all about everything other than Hamas. Try turning the attention on Hamas, and insist they stop throwing Palestinians into harms way. Insist Israel to do the same thing, and balance the landscape. Nobody thinks hamas are innocent. We think that Israel are indiscriminately killing Palestinians because they know they can and intend to wipe them out. And we think that Israel has no issue killing Palestinian children in the thousands. Over 10,000 children have been killed in the Israeli ‘response’. They are committing war crimes. And to be frank, the idea that Israel will stop because hostages are turned over is hilarious. They have no reason to seen as, like everyone that loves Israel keeps suggesting, Hamas’s existence is the problem. So they will continue to do this until they’re satisfied Hamas have been destroyed- or if we’re being real, until there’s nothing and nobody left in Gaza. I’m not saying that’s Genocide but… There are no mass protests urging Hamas to stop putting in danger the people they are supposed to protect, to release the hostages, to surrender. Israel haven't stopped the attack on Hamas, and no amount of pro Palestine marches and people calling out Israel has stopped that from happening. Why not call for people to show their anger towards Hamas, maybe it would change the direction this war is headed. Because the people who are protesting aren't stupid. " Explain this to me, it can be taken so many ways it would be good to be on the same page. | |||
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"it all about everything other than Hamas. Try turning the attention on Hamas, and insist they stop throwing Palestinians into harms way. Insist Israel to do the same thing, and balance the landscape. Nobody thinks hamas are innocent. We think that Israel are indiscriminately killing Palestinians because they know they can and intend to wipe them out. And we think that Israel has no issue killing Palestinian children in the thousands. Over 10,000 children have been killed in the Israeli ‘response’. They are committing war crimes. And to be frank, the idea that Israel will stop because hostages are turned over is hilarious. They have no reason to seen as, like everyone that loves Israel keeps suggesting, Hamas’s existence is the problem. So they will continue to do this until they’re satisfied Hamas have been destroyed- or if we’re being real, until there’s nothing and nobody left in Gaza. I’m not saying that’s Genocide but… There are no mass protests urging Hamas to stop putting in danger the people they are supposed to protect, to release the hostages, to surrender. Israel haven't stopped the attack on Hamas, and no amount of pro Palestine marches and people calling out Israel has stopped that from happening. Why not call for people to show their anger towards Hamas, maybe it would change the direction this war is headed. Because the people who are protesting aren't stupid. Explain this to me, it can be taken so many ways it would be good to be on the same page." 1. Releasing the hostages is unlikely to slow down the mass slaughter. 2. It makes more sense to protest against the institutions and government that's currently doing the mass slaughtering, than it is someone else. 3. The British government isn't aiding Hamas in the same way it's aiding Israel and the IDF. 4. The protesters probably don't watch elements of the media that promote the "what about Hamas" to justify they support for the mass killings of innocent people. Just a few reasons. | |||
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"it all about everything other than Hamas. Try turning the attention on Hamas, and insist they stop throwing Palestinians into harms way. Insist Israel to do the same thing, and balance the landscape. Nobody thinks hamas are innocent. We think that Israel are indiscriminately killing Palestinians because they know they can and intend to wipe them out. And we think that Israel has no issue killing Palestinian children in the thousands. Over 10,000 children have been killed in the Israeli ‘response’. They are committing war crimes. And to be frank, the idea that Israel will stop because hostages are turned over is hilarious. They have no reason to seen as, like everyone that loves Israel keeps suggesting, Hamas’s existence is the problem. So they will continue to do this until they’re satisfied Hamas have been destroyed- or if we’re being real, until there’s nothing and nobody left in Gaza. I’m not saying that’s Genocide but… There are no mass protests urging Hamas to stop putting in danger the people they are supposed to protect, to release the hostages, to surrender. Israel haven't stopped the attack on Hamas, and no amount of pro Palestine marches and people calling out Israel has stopped that from happening. Why not call for people to show their anger towards Hamas, maybe it would change the direction this war is headed. Because the people who are protesting aren't stupid. Explain this to me, it can be taken so many ways it would be good to be on the same page. 1. Releasing the hostages is unlikely to slow down the mass slaughter. 2. It makes more sense to protest against the institutions and government that's currently doing the mass slaughtering, than it is someone else. 3. The British government isn't aiding Hamas in the same way it's aiding Israel and the IDF. 4. The protesters probably don't watch elements of the media that promote the "what about Hamas" to justify they support for the mass killings of innocent people. Just a few reasons. " So basically you are saying it is fine to ignore one side completely, because you don't believe compromise or action aimed at stopping the war is worth considering. I have also not seen a single media outlet that supports the mass killing of people in Palestine, which outlets are you referring to? | |||
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"This is just an observation. On the BBC News there was a woman holding a clearly emaciated and starving child. But oddly, the woman seemed healthy and well fed, plump even. What are we to make of this?" The effects of starvation are noticeable much quicker on children. After your fat has burned up muscle wastage will start. As the children have much smaller muscles they lose them faster. Also the active person will maintain the muscle longer. | |||
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"it all about everything other than Hamas. Try turning the attention on Hamas, and insist they stop throwing Palestinians into harms way. Insist Israel to do the same thing, and balance the landscape. Nobody thinks hamas are innocent. We think that Israel are indiscriminately killing Palestinians because they know they can and intend to wipe them out. And we think that Israel has no issue killing Palestinian children in the thousands. Over 10,000 children have been killed in the Israeli ‘response’. They are committing war crimes. And to be frank, the idea that Israel will stop because hostages are turned over is hilarious. They have no reason to seen as, like everyone that loves Israel keeps suggesting, Hamas’s existence is the problem. So they will continue to do this until they’re satisfied Hamas have been destroyed- or if we’re being real, until there’s nothing and nobody left in Gaza. I’m not saying that’s Genocide but… There are no mass protests urging Hamas to stop putting in danger the people they are supposed to protect, to release the hostages, to surrender. Israel haven't stopped the attack on Hamas, and no amount of pro Palestine marches and people calling out Israel has stopped that from happening. Why not call for people to show their anger towards Hamas, maybe it would change the direction this war is headed. Because the people who are protesting aren't stupid. Explain this to me, it can be taken so many ways it would be good to be on the same page. 1. Releasing the hostages is unlikely to slow down the mass slaughter. 2. It makes more sense to protest against the institutions and government that's currently doing the mass slaughtering, than it is someone else. 3. The British government isn't aiding Hamas in the same way it's aiding Israel and the IDF. 4. The protesters probably don't watch elements of the media that promote the "what about Hamas" to justify they support for the mass killings of innocent people. Just a few reasons. So basically you are saying it is fine to ignore one side completely, " Nope " because you don't believe compromise or action aimed at stopping the war is worth considering. " Nothing to do with me or my belief. " I have also not seen a single media outlet that supports the mass killing of people in Palestine, which outlets are you referring to?" Then you haven't even vaguely been looking. | |||
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"it all about everything other than Hamas. Try turning the attention on Hamas, and insist they stop throwing Palestinians into harms way. Insist Israel to do the same thing, and balance the landscape. Nobody thinks hamas are innocent. We think that Israel are indiscriminately killing Palestinians because they know they can and intend to wipe them out. And we think that Israel has no issue killing Palestinian children in the thousands. Over 10,000 children have been killed in the Israeli ‘response’. They are committing war crimes. And to be frank, the idea that Israel will stop because hostages are turned over is hilarious. They have no reason to seen as, like everyone that loves Israel keeps suggesting, Hamas’s existence is the problem. So they will continue to do this until they’re satisfied Hamas have been destroyed- or if we’re being real, until there’s nothing and nobody left in Gaza. I’m not saying that’s Genocide but… There are no mass protests urging Hamas to stop putting in danger the people they are supposed to protect, to release the hostages, to surrender. Israel haven't stopped the attack on Hamas, and no amount of pro Palestine marches and people calling out Israel has stopped that from happening. Why not call for people to show their anger towards Hamas, maybe it would change the direction this war is headed. Because the people who are protesting aren't stupid. Explain this to me, it can be taken so many ways it would be good to be on the same page. 1. Releasing the hostages is unlikely to slow down the mass slaughter. 2. It makes more sense to protest against the institutions and government that's currently doing the mass slaughtering, than it is someone else. 3. The British government isn't aiding Hamas in the same way it's aiding Israel and the IDF. 4. The protesters probably don't watch elements of the media that promote the "what about Hamas" to justify they support for the mass killings of innocent people. Just a few reasons. So basically you are saying it is fine to ignore one side completely, Nope because you don't believe compromise or action aimed at stopping the war is worth considering. Nothing to do with me or my belief. I have also not seen a single media outlet that supports the mass killing of people in Palestine, which outlets are you referring to? Then you haven't even vaguely been looking. " It would help me if you were more specific, what outlets are supporting killing more Palestinians. I'm not even sure how we got to this, all I have said is both sides should be condemned equally. I'm not sure how that wouldn't be supported, but it clearly isn't. | |||
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"it all about everything other than Hamas. Try turning the attention on Hamas, and insist they stop throwing Palestinians into harms way. Insist Israel to do the same thing, and balance the landscape. Nobody thinks hamas are innocent. We think that Israel are indiscriminately killing Palestinians because they know they can and intend to wipe them out. And we think that Israel has no issue killing Palestinian children in the thousands. Over 10,000 children have been killed in the Israeli ‘response’. They are committing war crimes. And to be frank, the idea that Israel will stop because hostages are turned over is hilarious. They have no reason to seen as, like everyone that loves Israel keeps suggesting, Hamas’s existence is the problem. So they will continue to do this until they’re satisfied Hamas have been destroyed- or if we’re being real, until there’s nothing and nobody left in Gaza. I’m not saying that’s Genocide but… There are no mass protests urging Hamas to stop putting in danger the people they are supposed to protect, to release the hostages, to surrender. Israel haven't stopped the attack on Hamas, and no amount of pro Palestine marches and people calling out Israel has stopped that from happening. Why not call for people to show their anger towards Hamas, maybe it would change the direction this war is headed. Because the people who are protesting aren't stupid. Explain this to me, it can be taken so many ways it would be good to be on the same page. 1. Releasing the hostages is unlikely to slow down the mass slaughter. 2. It makes more sense to protest against the institutions and government that's currently doing the mass slaughtering, than it is someone else. 3. The British government isn't aiding Hamas in the same way it's aiding Israel and the IDF. 4. The protesters probably don't watch elements of the media that promote the "what about Hamas" to justify they support for the mass killings of innocent people. Just a few reasons. So basically you are saying it is fine to ignore one side completely, Nope because you don't believe compromise or action aimed at stopping the war is worth considering. Nothing to do with me or my belief. I have also not seen a single media outlet that supports the mass killing of people in Palestine, which outlets are you referring to? Then you haven't even vaguely been looking. It would help me if you were more specific, what outlets are supporting killing more Palestinians. I'm not even sure how we got to this, all I have said is both sides should be condemned equally. I'm not sure how that wouldn't be supported, but it clearly isn't. " No, I replied to your post "Try turning the attention on Hamas, and insist they stop throwing Palestinians into harms way.". Nothing about "both sides". And it's not equal. One side is starving, bombing and mass slaughtering civilians at an industrial rate. It's not just a numbers game, obviously every life lost is a tragedy, regardless of their nationality, ethnicity, or religion. But it's clearly not any kind of equal conflict. | |||
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"it all about everything other than Hamas. Try turning the attention on Hamas, and insist they stop throwing Palestinians into harms way. Insist Israel to do the same thing, and balance the landscape. Nobody thinks hamas are innocent. We think that Israel are indiscriminately killing Palestinians because they know they can and intend to wipe them out. And we think that Israel has no issue killing Palestinian children in the thousands. Over 10,000 children have been killed in the Israeli ‘response’. They are committing war crimes. And to be frank, the idea that Israel will stop because hostages are turned over is hilarious. They have no reason to seen as, like everyone that loves Israel keeps suggesting, Hamas’s existence is the problem. So they will continue to do this until they’re satisfied Hamas have been destroyed- or if we’re being real, until there’s nothing and nobody left in Gaza. I’m not saying that’s Genocide but… There are no mass protests urging Hamas to stop putting in danger the people they are supposed to protect, to release the hostages, to surrender. Israel haven't stopped the attack on Hamas, and no amount of pro Palestine marches and people calling out Israel has stopped that from happening. Why not call for people to show their anger towards Hamas, maybe it would change the direction this war is headed. Because the people who are protesting aren't stupid. Explain this to me, it can be taken so many ways it would be good to be on the same page. 1. Releasing the hostages is unlikely to slow down the mass slaughter. 2. It makes more sense to protest against the institutions and government that's currently doing the mass slaughtering, than it is someone else. 3. The British government isn't aiding Hamas in the same way it's aiding Israel and the IDF. 4. The protesters probably don't watch elements of the media that promote the "what about Hamas" to justify they support for the mass killings of innocent people. Just a few reasons. So basically you are saying it is fine to ignore one side completely, Nope because you don't believe compromise or action aimed at stopping the war is worth considering. Nothing to do with me or my belief. I have also not seen a single media outlet that supports the mass killing of people in Palestine, which outlets are you referring to? Then you haven't even vaguely been looking. It would help me if you were more specific, what outlets are supporting killing more Palestinians. I'm not even sure how we got to this, all I have said is both sides should be condemned equally. I'm not sure how that wouldn't be supported, but it clearly isn't. No, I replied to your post "Try turning the attention on Hamas, and insist they stop throwing Palestinians into harms way.". Nothing about "both sides". And it's not equal. One side is starving, bombing and mass slaughtering civilians at an industrial rate. It's not just a numbers game, obviously every life lost is a tragedy, regardless of their nationality, ethnicity, or religion. But it's clearly not any kind of equal conflict. " I'm surprised you can't associate the influence Hamas is having on the very thing you want to stop. No point going around in circles, so I will leave it here. | |||
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"it all about everything other than Hamas. Try turning the attention on Hamas, and insist they stop throwing Palestinians into harms way. Insist Israel to do the same thing, and balance the landscape. Nobody thinks hamas are innocent. We think that Israel are indiscriminately killing Palestinians because they know they can and intend to wipe them out. And we think that Israel has no issue killing Palestinian children in the thousands. Over 10,000 children have been killed in the Israeli ‘response’. They are committing war crimes. And to be frank, the idea that Israel will stop because hostages are turned over is hilarious. They have no reason to seen as, like everyone that loves Israel keeps suggesting, Hamas’s existence is the problem. So they will continue to do this until they’re satisfied Hamas have been destroyed- or if we’re being real, until there’s nothing and nobody left in Gaza. I’m not saying that’s Genocide but… There are no mass protests urging Hamas to stop putting in danger the people they are supposed to protect, to release the hostages, to surrender. Israel haven't stopped the attack on Hamas, and no amount of pro Palestine marches and people calling out Israel has stopped that from happening. Why not call for people to show their anger towards Hamas, maybe it would change the direction this war is headed. Because the people who are protesting aren't stupid. Explain this to me, it can be taken so many ways it would be good to be on the same page. 1. Releasing the hostages is unlikely to slow down the mass slaughter. 2. It makes more sense to protest against the institutions and government that's currently doing the mass slaughtering, than it is someone else. 3. The British government isn't aiding Hamas in the same way it's aiding Israel and the IDF. 4. The protesters probably don't watch elements of the media that promote the "what about Hamas" to justify they support for the mass killings of innocent people. Just a few reasons. So basically you are saying it is fine to ignore one side completely, Nope because you don't believe compromise or action aimed at stopping the war is worth considering. Nothing to do with me or my belief. I have also not seen a single media outlet that supports the mass killing of people in Palestine, which outlets are you referring to? Then you haven't even vaguely been looking. It would help me if you were more specific, what outlets are supporting killing more Palestinians. I'm not even sure how we got to this, all I have said is both sides should be condemned equally. I'm not sure how that wouldn't be supported, but it clearly isn't. No, I replied to your post "Try turning the attention on Hamas, and insist they stop throwing Palestinians into harms way.". Nothing about "both sides". And it's not equal. One side is starving, bombing and mass slaughtering civilians at an industrial rate. It's not just a numbers game, obviously every life lost is a tragedy, regardless of their nationality, ethnicity, or religion. But it's clearly not any kind of equal conflict. I'm surprised you can't associate the influence Hamas is having on the very thing you want to stop. No point going around in circles, so I will leave it here. "Fair enough. | |||
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"You have been asking this question and pretending like no one has been able to answer. Here I answered your question and all you can respond with is that it "sounds completely delusional". I have answered your question and also explained why that would be victory for Israel. It's up to you to explain why it is not a victory." A situation where Israel is slaughtering about 2,700 people a month isn't sustainable and could only be considered total victory by someone who is delusional. The bombing, the shooting and the lack of sufficient food, water, sanitation and medical provision is destroying Israel's reputation. And things could get a lot worse in the near future as locking two million people up in a camp will likely result in serious outbreaks of disease. Death rates could skyrocket, especially as so many of these people are already vulnerable. "Really? What is it?" Total victory for the Israeli government under Netanyahu would be the fulfilment of the Likud goal - "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty". This involves the West Bank, all of Jerusalem and Gaza being under permanent Israeli control. Palestinians would either have to leave or submit to eternal subjugation under a regime of "self-rule" living in areas of "Judea and Samaria" designated as homelands by the Israeli state where virtually everything would remain under Israeli control. "Two-state system isn't a solution. It's an outcome you get if you establish peace between the two. There is no point in drawing an imaginary line and setting borders when one of the states wants to destroy the other at all costs." The PLO recognized Israel's right to exist in 1993. Netanyahu still rejects two-states today. "Can you guarantee Israel security? If Hamas even attacks Israel once after that, will you be able to take responsibility for the the deaths and r&pes?" No more than you can guarantee Palestinian security. You do realise that Israelis have killed about 110,000 Palestinians compared with the Palestinians having killed about 10,000 Israelis, right? And you do know that in December over 3,000 Palestinians were being held captive by the Israelis without trial or charge, according to the last available figures from B'Tselem? | |||
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"Don't care Hamas started it, and you're brainwashed if you think they didn't. They are a terror group. If you feel so strongly, pack your bags and GO. !! Maybe you should look around you in the U.K. and see the troubles. "The irony of a cock in a profile picture is not lost on the world 🤣🤣🤣🤣 | |||
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"Don't care Hamas started it, and you're brainwashed if you think they didn't." Only "brainwashed" people can read more about the history of the region prior to Hamas existing? Seems like a weird claim. " They are a terror group." Not sure how this is related to your confusion about the situation in Gaza. " If you feel so strongly, pack your bags and GO. !! " Go where and why? " Maybe you should look around you in the U.K. and see the troubles. "Yeah it's a clusterfuck here. The rise of far right populism, race-hate normalised, freedoms to express dissent are being eroded. Not sure what this has got to do with anything though. | |||
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"The solution to whats going on out there is either all isrealis are wiped out or all Palestinians are wiped out, until one of those things happen both sides we carry on attacking one another sporadically, im 53 years old now and remember watching the trouble in that part of the world on the news as a 10 year old kid, why anyone thinks anything is going to change is beyond me, only other alternative i can see is the palestinians move to an arab country after all we are always told how muslims always take care of other muslims and as america seem to be israels big brother then all the Israelis can move to america they have enough room some states are almost empty, once thats done turn isreal and palestine to glass and make it uninhabitable for the next cpl of thousand years, failing that then expect to keep seeing them both tearing lumps out of each other until we shuffle off our mortal coil, this is carrying on until one side or the other dosent exist" Roll back 80 odd years and whose idea was it to put 700,000 Jewish refugees and holocaust survivors and sandwich them between Arab countries that hate them more than hitler, and expect a peaceful integrated future. If it wasn’t for USA arming Israel they’d be wiped out again. | |||
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"The solution to whats going on out there is either all isrealis are wiped out or all Palestinians are wiped out, until one of those things happen both sides we carry on attacking one another sporadically, im 53 years old now and remember watching the trouble in that part of the world on the news as a 10 year old kid, why anyone thinks anything is going to change is beyond me, only other alternative i can see is the palestinians move to an arab country after all we are always told how muslims always take care of other muslims and as america seem to be israels big brother then all the Israelis can move to america they have enough room some states are almost empty, once thats done turn isreal and palestine to glass and make it uninhabitable for the next cpl of thousand years, failing that then expect to keep seeing them both tearing lumps out of each other until we shuffle off our mortal coil, this is carrying on until one side or the other dosent exist Roll back 80 odd years and whose idea was it to put 700,000 Jewish refugees and holocaust survivors and sandwich them between Arab countries that hate them more than hitler, and expect a peaceful integrated future. If it wasn’t for USA arming Israel they’d be wiped out again. " oh i know our part in it all and im pretty sure those 700,000 refugees and Holocaust survivours wanted to go there its not like we made them go there and as for america armiing them america will arm whoever is willing to pay them, i was just pointing out how this is going to end one way or another because the ship a two state solution was on sailed a couple of decades ago, it might not be a palatable view of how this ends but its a lot more likley than any sort of peace, people on here going on about all these countrys recognising palestine are under the impression its gona make one iota of difference to israel | |||
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"Roll back 80 odd years and whose idea was it to put 700,000 Jewish refugees and holocaust survivors and sandwich them between Arab countries that hate them more than hitler, and expect a peaceful integrated future. If it wasn’t for USA arming Israel they’d be wiped out again. oh i know our part in it all and im pretty sure those 700,000 refugees and Holocaust survivours wanted to go there its not like we made them go there and as for america armiing them america will arm whoever is willing to pay them, i was just pointing out how this is going to end one way or another because the ship a two state solution was on sailed a couple of decades ago, it might not be a palatable view of how this ends but its a lot more likley than any sort of peace, people on here going on about all these countrys recognising palestine are under the impression its gona make one iota of difference to israel" The world isn't a static place. Netanyahu and Trump are old men who won't live forever. I'm older than you and remember when Made in Japan was a sign of something that was low-tech and crappy. China was a peasant state. The Vietnam War was still going on. Peace in NI looked totally impossible. There were hardly any cars. Computers were room-sized. etc etc | |||
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"You have been asking this question and pretending like no one has been able to answer. Here I answered your question and all you can respond with is that it "sounds completely delusional". I have answered your question and also explained why that would be victory for Israel. It's up to you to explain why it is not a victory. A situation where Israel is slaughtering about 2,700 people a month isn't sustainable and could only be considered total victory by someone who is delusional. " You read Hamas statement and said that they could be convinced to be peaceful while you couldn't even convince them to release some hostages. Who is delusional here? As for the 2,700 people a month being killed being unsustainable, it won't be continuously happening for long. It would teach a point similar to what China is doing with Uyghurs. Don't you think China's case is a victory? " The bombing, the shooting and the lack of sufficient food, water, sanitation and medical provision is destroying Israel's reputation. " Reputation with whom? Some Western progressive politicians and people? No one gives a fuck about their views, especially when it comes to self defense. You sitting here safely on a sofa can post all the moral opinions you want. But the perspective of people whose own lives are in line are completely different. It's either their lives or Palestinians lives from the Israeli perspective. If you don't have a solution that guarantees Israel's safety, they will continue doing this. " Total victory for the Israeli government under Netanyahu would be the fulfilment of the Likud goal - "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty". This involves the West Bank, all of Jerusalem and Gaza being under permanent Israeli control. " If they really wanted to do that, they would have done it long back. " The PLO recognized Israel's right to exist in 1993. Netanyahu still rejects two-states today. " PLO recognised Israel as a state when they were recognised as the representative of Palestine people. But Hamas defeated PLO. What should Israel do then? " No more than you can guarantee Palestinian security. " I am not the one who claims to have a solution of peace. You are the one. If you want Israel to budge, you need a guarantee of their safety. Western countries can't promise that. Hell they couldn't even get Hamas to release the hostages. Why would Israel trust the west to solve this problem? " You do realise that Israelis have killed about 110,000 Palestinians compared with the Palestinians having killed about 10,000 Israelis, right? " So? When it comes to self defense, no one would care about proportionality. " And you do know that in December over 3,000 Palestinians were being held captive by the Israelis without trial or charge, according to the last available figures from B'Tselem?" Is Hamas going through all legal processes before attacking people? | |||
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"Roll back 80 odd years and whose idea was it to put 700,000 Jewish refugees and holocaust survivors and sandwich them between Arab countries that hate them more than hitler, and expect a peaceful integrated future. If it wasn’t for USA arming Israel they’d be wiped out again. oh i know our part in it all and im pretty sure those 700,000 refugees and Holocaust survivours wanted to go there its not like we made them go there and as for america armiing them america will arm whoever is willing to pay them, i was just pointing out how this is going to end one way or another because the ship a two state solution was on sailed a couple of decades ago, it might not be a palatable view of how this ends but its a lot more likley than any sort of peace, people on here going on about all these countrys recognising palestine are under the impression its gona make one iota of difference to israel The world isn't a static place. Netanyahu and Trump are old men who won't live forever. I'm older than you and remember when Made in Japan was a sign of something that was low-tech and crappy. China was a peasant state. The Vietnam War was still going on. Peace in NI looked totally impossible. There were hardly any cars. Computers were room-sized. etc etc" you do realise the Israeli goverment is full of people just like nutty yahoo and yea trump and the republicans will prob be gone in a few years,I guess you are under the impression the democrats would do anything different,don't forget this latest outbreak of violence started while biden was in power and he didn't do anything different to what trump's doing,personally I don't have a dog in the fight so whatever side comes out on top is neither here or there for me, | |||
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"There is plenty to worry about in terms of the UK’s future, which looks increasingly bleak. Bad shit happens all over the world. Always has and always will. The West’s involvement in recent decades has just made the problem worse. Let the Egyptians, Jordanians, Syrians, UAE and Saudis sort it. They have the money and wherewithal and have a more nuanced understanding of what is going on. In the West opinions are simplistic and polarised. More Western imperialism isn’t the answer." Think you'll find these countries are puppets of the Americans/Israelis funded/bribed and dependent on the west. There are 800 American bases around the world especially around the middle east (west asia). They control the narrative. | |||
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"With the extreme views they have towards israel, israel have no choice than to continue with it." You're saying that "extreme views" are worse than mass slaughter of innocent men women and children? | |||
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"With the extreme views they have towards israel, israel have no choice than to continue with it. You're saying that "extreme views" are worse than mass slaughter of innocent men women and children?" Pretty much the same that Hamas want on Israel. | |||
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"There is plenty to worry about in terms of the UK’s future, which looks increasingly bleak. Bad shit happens all over the world. Always has and always will. The West’s involvement in recent decades has just made the problem worse. Let the Egyptians, Jordanians, Syrians, UAE and Saudis sort it. They have the money and wherewithal and have a more nuanced understanding of what is going on. In the West opinions are simplistic and polarised. More Western imperialism isn’t the answer. Think you'll find these countries are puppets of the Americans/Israelis funded/bribed and dependent on the west. There are 800 American bases around the world especially around the middle east (west asia). They control the narrative." Saudi Arabia’s biggest trading partners are China, Japan, India and the UAE. The UAE’s biggest trading partners are India, Japan, China, and Saudi Arabia. Westerners have a habit of thinking they are far more important to other countries than they actually are. Of course there is another reason why some people think that other countries are being controlled by Israel. | |||
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"You read Hamas statement and said that they could be convinced to be peaceful while you couldn't even convince them to release some hostages. Who is delusional here?" Clearly you if you think I'm involved in hostage negotiations with Hamas. "As for the 2,700 people a month being killed being unsustainable, it won't be continuously happening for long. It would teach a point similar to what China is doing with Uyghurs. Don't you think China's case is a victory?" Has the Chinese government killed 60,000 Uyghurs? And no I don't think their mistreatment is a victory for China. "Reputation with whom? Some Western progressive politicians and people? No one gives a fuck about their views, especially when it comes to self defense." Reputational damage isn't just about people's views it leads to concrete changes such as arrest warrants, diplomatic moves, commercial deals being cancelled or never started, boycotts and such like. If things continue then Israel will become entirely dependent on the USA. "You sitting here safely on a sofa can post all the moral opinions you want. But the perspective of people whose own lives are in line are completely different." Are you in Israel? It says Bangor, London next to your selfie. I'm an ex-zionist and my late partner was a Jewish American so I do have some understanding of these matters. What are your opinions based on? "It's either their lives or Palestinians lives from the Israeli perspective. If you don't have a solution that guarantees Israel's safety, they will continue doing this." The Israeli government's policies haven't delivered safety for Israelis. This ought to be obvious to everyone. "If they really wanted to do that, they would have done it long back." They want to pretend to be democratic to maintain US and European support so adopt an ambiguous position where they claim to be both occupiers and not occupiers at the same time, while slowly expanding into the West Bank. "PLO recognised Israel as a state when they were recognised as the representative of Palestine people. But Hamas defeated PLO. What should Israel do then?" Hamas didn't replace the PLO. "I am not the one who claims to have a solution of peace. You are the one. If you want Israel to budge, you need a guarantee of their safety. Western countries can't promise that. Hell they couldn't even get Hamas to release the hostages. Why would Israel trust the west to solve this problem?" We are having a debate on a swingers website. I'm making the case for peace through a two-state solution. You are making the case for endless war. "So? When it comes to self defense, no one would care about proportionality." I just wanted to point out that the Palestians can legitimately raise concerns about their security given that they have suffered more than ten times as many people being killed as the Israelis have. And your concern seems to be exclusively about Israeli security. "Is Hamas going through all legal processes before attacking people? " Hamas is a proscribed terrorist organisation. The Israeli government is being given political and military assistance by our government. | |||
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" Clearly you if you think I'm involved in hostage negotiations with Hamas. " I meant the Western governments. They couldn't even get Hamas to release hostages but somehow they will get Hamas to be peaceful? That's delusional. " Has the Chinese government killed 60,000 Uyghurs? " They throw Uyghurs into prisons and "re-education" camps. Would you be ok if Israel does that to Palestinians. As far as killings are concerned, good luck getting that data from China. " And no I don't think their mistreatment is a victory for China. " From China's perspective, it's a victory because the region was unstable for a long time and the Chinese aren't attacked anymore. " Reputational damage isn't just about people's views it leads to concrete changes such as arrest warrants, diplomatic moves, commercial deals being cancelled or never started, boycotts and such like. " Countries and global organisations take such action only if their own interests are in stake, never for moral reasons. If it's for moral reasons, the most they would do is a strongly worded condemnation. Saudi Arabia was asked to preside over the women's rights forum by the UN. So, next joke please. " Are you in Israel? It says Bangor, London next to your selfie. " I am not the one giving moral lectures on what Israel should do. You are. " I'm an ex-zionist and my late partner was a Jewish American so I do have some understanding of these matters. " Doesn't matter. People who have their own lives under threat have different attitudes towards the problem than a third party with no stakes trying to sit on the moral high horse. " The Israeli government's policies haven't delivered safety for Israelis. This ought to be obvious to everyone. " Without those policies, things will be even worse. " They want to pretend to be democratic to maintain US and European support so adopt an ambiguous position where they claim to be both occupiers and not occupiers at the same time, while slowly expanding into the West Bank. " You don't need to be democratic to get US or Europe support. " We are having a debate on a swingers website. I'm making the case for peace through a two-state solution. You are making the case for endless war. " You are making a case for a "solution" that won't result in peace, only more attacks on Israel. " I just wanted to point out that the Palestians can legitimately raise concerns about their security given that they have suffered more than ten times as many people being killed as the Israelis have. And your concern seems to be exclusively about Israeli security. " My concern isn't exclusively against Israel. As I pointed out in a previous post, you have two groups of people who hate each other. Unless you make them stop hate each other, none of your "solutions" will work. The more powerful one will oppress the weaker one. I just gave Israel's point of view in all my arguments. | |||
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"BBC news has just reported Israel is going to drop six pallets of food. 6000kg for 2 million people. Three grams a head " Are they going to use it to lure kids out into the open so they can execute them? | |||
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"BBC news has just reported Israel is going to drop six pallets of food. 6000kg for 2 million people. Three grams a head " Legally Israel has obligations, but morally they owe them nothing. Meanwhile the contents of 950 UN food trucks sit inside Gaza, not moving because the UN doggedly refuse to work with GHF. The suffering in Gaza is the fault of Hamas, the UN and the countries that funded and supported Hamas. I honestly thinks Hamas wants to see the region destroyed - either that or they really love those hostages. 🤔 | |||
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"Of course there is another reason why some people think that other countries are being controlled by Israel." It's all antisemitism - the idea of Jews controlling the world has transmogrified into Israel controlling the world. Oldest prejudice modernised and everyone is still in denial. | |||
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"BBC news has just reported Israel is going to drop six pallets of food. 6000kg for 2 million people. Three grams a head Legally Israel has obligations, but morally they owe them nothing. Meanwhile the contents of 950 UN food trucks sit inside Gaza, not moving because the UN doggedly refuse to work with GHF. The suffering in Gaza is the fault of Hamas, the UN and the countries that funded and supported Hamas. I honestly thinks Hamas wants to see the region destroyed - either that or they really love those hostages. 🤔" Lots of people post extreme views on here but they often feel hammed up for effect. This feels real, and is an absolutely terrifying level of psychopathy (literal sense of the word, not the movie sense). | |||
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" I honestly thinks Hamas wants to see the region destroyed - either that or they really love those hostages. 🤔 Lots of people post extreme views on here but they often feel hammed up for effect. This feels real, and is an absolutely terrifying level of psychopathy (literal sense of the word, not the movie sense)." Indeed Hamas are psychopaths. | |||
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" I honestly thinks Hamas wants to see the region destroyed - either that or they really love those hostages. 🤔 Lots of people post extreme views on here but they often feel hammed up for effect. This feels real, and is an absolutely terrifying level of psychopathy (literal sense of the word, not the movie sense). Indeed Hamas are psychopaths." You removed most of the post I was replying to for some reason. Not cool. | |||
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"Do you think Hamas will stop attacking Israel after this two state solution? AFAIK they've said they would, but whether they would stick to their word is another matter. A two-state solution would have to be based on de-militarization of Palestine (for at least a few decades) and a considerable UN peacekeeping force. There's nothing easy about a two-state solution but it's the only way that Israelis are going to get peace and security. Hamas has openly mentioned many times about destruction of Israel and Jews. So trust them blindly would be laughably stupid. Your de-militarization strategy works with countries waging head-on battle. It doesn't work with terrorists waging guerilla warfare." Yes and mosab hassan yousef talks about the dangers of hamas and how west cant see it too. | |||
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" Legally Israel has obligations, but morally they owe them nothing. Meanwhile the contents of 950 UN food trucks sit inside Gaza, not moving because the UN doggedly refuse to work with GHF. The suffering in Gaza is the fault of Hamas, the UN and the countries that funded and supported Hamas. I honestly thinks Hamas wants to see the region destroyed - either that or they really love those hostages. 🤔 Lots of people post extreme views on here but they often feel hammed up for effect. This feels real, and is an absolutely terrifying level of psychopathy (literal sense of the word, not the movie sense)." There is nothing I posted that is incorrect. The UN is demonstrably compromised - plenty of evidence to suggest they have no political neutrality. There are 950 trucks full of food in Gaza, and the UN are holding it up. No country should be morally obliged to feed an enemy - less so, a regime that kidn'pped and str'ngled an 8 month old baby. And yet they are aiding them anyway. Hamas are psychotic, and so are their supporters. They seem to want the region destroyed - they cannot win so they'd rather sacrifice their own people. | |||
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