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"He reminds us that we get lettuce washed in chlorinated water, so why not chicken?" Very few people understand the "issue" of "chlorinated chicken". Whoever brought that phrase into UK political discourse deserves a medal for misdirection. | |||
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"Why not just insist on labelling, then consumers can make informed decisions. Ditto hormones in beef. In fact their could be a huge market in US for unadulterated British food if it was marketed wisely." USA, especially now with Trump in charge, will insist on no labelling requirements, so how would a UK customer know? USA already do this for other countries. Also: the UK already sells into US market...issue is the lack of promotion & lack of demand from US customers. | |||
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"Would you welcome the relaxation of food standards here, allowing importation of US food stuffs? Nigel Farage thinks we should be happy with it " No I wouldn't. | |||
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"Why not just insist on labelling, then consumers can make informed decisions. Ditto hormones in beef. In fact their could be a huge market in US for unadulterated British food if it was marketed wisely. USA, especially now with Trump in charge, will insist on no labelling requirements, so how would a UK customer know? USA already do this for other countries. Also: the UK already sells into US market...issue is the lack of promotion & lack of demand from US customers." It would be bad to compromise accurate food labelling. Consumers have a right to know what's in their food and where it originates from. | |||
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"Would you welcome the relaxation of food standards here, allowing importation of US food stuffs? Nigel Farage thinks we should be happy with it " Yeah, well, I doubt that (friend of Donald Trump) Nigel Farage eats the same food he expects us to be happy with. One of a few good reasons why the US has the poorest nutritional standards in the whole world is the general poor quality of their food. | |||
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"Why would we need chicken imported from the US? Chlorinated or not" We import about 450,000 tons of chicken every year. It has to come from somewhere. | |||
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"Why would we need chicken imported from the US? Chlorinated or not "It could potentially flood the market, as some US producers have size and financial strength, that could potentially put UK producers out of business. Buyers may go with whatever they can get cheapest. It could depend on what sort of trade deal that we'd be expected to sign with the US 
Food labelling is quite different in the US to here too. I'd expect that we'd have to move downwards, a race to the bottom  | |||
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"Maybe if you bought chlorinated chicken there would be less people getting salmonella after handling raw chicken and picking their nose God only knows where tesco source half it's stuff " The answer to that is simple: Poland. Tesco is the largest poultry buyer in Europe and Poland the largest producer. | |||
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"Maybe if you bought chlorinated chicken there would be less people getting salmonella after handling raw chicken and picking their nose God only knows where tesco source half it's stuff " There is a higher percentage of food poisoning in America than here because washing the chicken in chlorinated water is used to mask poor production practices. As a poster above said, the only way American food can be cheaper than UK food is because production standards are lower. As for EU (generally Polish or other Eastern) meat, the standards are lower and not as rigorously adhered to there either. | |||
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"Maybe if you bought chlorinated chicken there would be less people getting salmonella after handling raw chicken and picking their nose God only knows where tesco source half it's stuff There is a higher percentage of food poisoning in America than here because washing the chicken in chlorinated water is used to mask poor production practices. As a poster above said, the only way American food can be cheaper than UK food is because production standards are lower. As for EU (generally Polish or other Eastern) meat, the standards are lower and not as rigorously adhered to there either." The EU and UK have been very close to banning Polish poultry exports because of systemic salmonella, many believe because of the misuse of antibiotics in the feed. Let's not forget either that UK poultry breeders have their own problems with avian flu. | |||
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"Would you welcome the relaxation of food standards here, allowing importation of US food stuffs? Nigel Farage thinks we should be happy with it " I presume there would still be an option to buy non chlorinated food stuffs. | |||
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"Uk imports about half its food. One thing the energy crisis characterised was reliance on imports from markets you can’t control. Uk comprises 59 million acres of which 12% is developed (10% excluding gardens). That leaves about 0.8 acre per capita. 37% of uk farms have closed since 1973 (defra), EU subsidies gone after Brexit, and now a 20% iht hit per generation on working farms. Agriculture reduced to 0.6% gdp (ons) Policy makers should prioritise Uk agriculture and farming over food trade deals" The problem is that we are a small country by area and intensive farming is damaging. Intensive chicken farming along the River Wye has turned a once gin clear river into a slurry of chicken sh1t. | |||
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"Maybe if you bought chlorinated chicken there would be less people getting salmonella after handling raw chicken and picking their nose God only knows where tesco source half it's stuff The answer to that is simple: Poland. Tesco is the largest poultry buyer in Europe and Poland the largest producer." You must be " God".. | |||
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"God only knows where tesco source half it's stuff" "The answer to that is simple: Poland. Tesco is the largest poultry buyer in Europe and Poland the largest producer." "You must be " God".." The real God would have pointed out that Tesco gets a good chunk of its chicken from Thailand, where the animal husbandry standards are truly abysmal. But Tesco is still open, so it seems that people don't care. | |||
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"God only knows where tesco source half it's stuff The answer to that is simple: Poland. Tesco is the largest poultry buyer in Europe and Poland the largest producer. You must be " God".. The real God would have pointed out that Tesco gets a good chunk of its chicken from Thailand, where the animal husbandry standards are truly abysmal. But Tesco is still open, so it seems that people don't care." i dispute that after a little bit of digging on the net. which chicken products are you asserting as being from asia? | |||
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"Tesco gets a good chunk of its chicken from Thailand, where the animal husbandry standards are truly abysmal. But Tesco is still open, so it seems that people don't care." "i dispute that after a little bit of digging on the net. which chicken products are you asserting as being from asia?" My understanding is that it's processed breast meat, so cooked chicken slices, ready-to-eat chunks, that sort of thing. If you Google "Tesco chicken thailand" you get mostly recipes from the Tesco website, but if you filter them out, the rest of it is people complaining that Tesco sources chicken from Thailand. | |||
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"God only knows where tesco source half it's stuff The answer to that is simple: Poland. Tesco is the largest poultry buyer in Europe and Poland the largest producer. You must be " God".. The real God would have pointed out that Tesco gets a good chunk of its chicken from Thailand, where the animal husbandry standards are truly abysmal. But Tesco is still open, so it seems that people don't care." The God title has been passed on. Congratulations | |||
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"God only knows where tesco source half it's stuff The answer to that is simple: Poland. Tesco is the largest poultry buyer in Europe and Poland the largest producer. You must be " God".. The real God would have pointed out that Tesco gets a good chunk of its chicken from Thailand, where the animal husbandry standards are truly abysmal. But Tesco is still open, so it seems that people don't care. i dispute that after a little bit of digging on the net. which chicken products are you asserting as being from asia?" : Original God fighting back. Getting interesting. | |||
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"Maybe things have improved since then but the stuff that was going to companies producing sausages and burgers stretched the description of what one might call meat. It appeared to be eyelids, anuses, nostrils, lips, foreskins, ears and such like. This was from pigs, cows and lambs rather than chickens of course." I've never quite understood what's wrong with eating all of the parts of an animal. If it's tasty, I'll eat it, eyelids, foreskins, nostrils and all. I believe that anuses now have to be removed and disposed of, and that there's a special 'arse cutter' to cleanly remove them. I'd have no problem with that bit either, if it had been cleaned. | |||
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"Tesco gets a good chunk of its chicken from Thailand, where the animal husbandry standards are truly abysmal. But Tesco is still open, so it seems that people don't care. i dispute that after a little bit of digging on the net. which chicken products are you asserting as being from asia? My understanding is that it's processed breast meat, so cooked chicken slices, ready-to-eat chunks, that sort of thing. If you Google "Tesco chicken thailand" you get mostly recipes from the Tesco website, but if you filter them out, the rest of it is people complaining that Tesco sources chicken from Thailand." so the uk chicken is sent to thailand to be cooked .... so to avoid further confusion, what's your assertion now about substandard thai husbandry involved in rearing those chickens when they are reared in the uk? | |||
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"so the uk chicken is sent to thailand to be cooked .... so to avoid further confusion, what's your assertion now about substandard thai husbandry involved in rearing those chickens when they are reared in the uk?" That's not my understanding of what happens. I believe that Tesco are sourcing their pre-cooked chicken directly from Thailand. I've seen no evidence that they send British reared chicken to be cooked and sliced in Thailand. It seems unlikely that would be economically viable, even with the latest increases to UK wages. | |||
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"I've never quite understood what's wrong with eating all of the parts of an animal. If it's tasty, I'll eat it, eyelids, foreskins, nostrils and all. I believe that anuses now have to be removed and disposed of, and that there's a special 'arse cutter' to cleanly remove them. I'd have no problem with that bit either, if it had been cleaned." If you could lift an open and slippery 20 kg clear plastic bag of this stuff and you didn't experience a vomiting reflex then I'd be impressed. But I admire your position because it's more environmentally friendly to eat as much of an animal as possible and in the old days people were more in touch with eating things like giblets. But I think many people today eating things like beef burgers and chicken nuggets don't actually know that they aren't eating things like eyelids and bladders. Also there's not a great deal of nutitional value in some of these products. Or taste. Huge quantities of additives are needed to try to make MSM taste nice. Maybe there's a business opportunity for a chain called Foreskins and Anuses? It worked for the Slug and Lettuce. | |||
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"so the uk chicken is sent to thailand to be cooked .... so to avoid further confusion, what's your assertion now about substandard thai husbandry involved in rearing those chickens when they are reared in the uk? That's not my understanding of what happens. I believe that Tesco are sourcing their pre-cooked chicken directly from Thailand. I've seen no evidence that they send British reared chicken to be cooked and sliced in Thailand. It seems unlikely that would be economically viable, even with the latest increases to UK wages." do you have any evidence that tesco sources chickens reared in thailand then or is it merely your 'belief'? | |||
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"I have always enjoyed chicken (especially kfc) when I have been to the US. But don’t let the truth (it’s harmless) get in the way of a good crying party. Also nobody will be forced to buy any American imports if they don’t want to. Oh and while I’m here: Farage for PM. Go Nige Go Reform UK. "I can understand the concern but as you point out, you will not be forced to buy it. That said will you be buying it without knowing, i.e. chicken in ready meals. The labelling could be crucial. If the U.S. suppliers get their way about not having to label their products then I suggest all British suppliers make it very obvious on their labels that their chicken is chlorine free so people have the choice. | |||
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"I have always enjoyed chicken (especially kfc) when I have been to the US. But don’t let the truth (it’s harmless) get in the way of a good crying party. Also nobody will be forced to buy any American imports if they don’t want to. Oh and while I’m here: Farage for PM. Go Nige Go Reform UK.
I can understand the concern but as you point out, you will not be forced to buy it. That said will you be buying it without knowing, i.e. chicken in ready meals. The labelling could be crucial. If the U.S. suppliers get their way about not having to label their products then I suggest all British suppliers make it very obvious on their labels that their chicken is chlorine free so people have the choice. "That is just the adults… what about for example manufacturers of kids school meals… obviously you are going to make money stretch as far as possible… in which case what would stop them using chlorinated chicken or HGH beef? Anyway… as someone else said… US manufacturers can import into uk markets already… so long as they adhere to UK health and safety standards… if by doing that it increases their expenses, that’s not a UK problem! | |||
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"The labelling could be crucial. If the U.S. suppliers get their way about not having to label their products then I suggest all British suppliers make it very obvious on their labels that their chicken is chlorine free so people have the choice. " Accurate labelling is crucial to consumer choice. By the way has anyone noticed that some food products now have "Not for the EU" labels? My understanding was that Brexiteers were saying that food standards wouldn't drop, but if so why are these labels becoming more and more common? | |||
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"so the uk chicken is sent to thailand to be cooked .... so to avoid further confusion, what's your assertion now about substandard thai husbandry involved in rearing those chickens when they are reared in the uk?" "That's not my understanding of what happens. I believe that Tesco are sourcing their pre-cooked chicken directly from Thailand. I've seen no evidence that they send British reared chicken to be cooked and sliced in Thailand. It seems unlikely that would be economically viable, even with the latest increases to UK wages." "do you have any evidence that tesco sources chickens reared in thailand then or is it merely your 'belief'?" We know that the chicken has been in Thailand, because it says so on the label. I assume there's no argument there. Cooking and slicing a chicken takes electricity, which is pretty expensive in the UK. Even so, I'm going to say that's it's cheaper to do it here than it would be to send the chicken to Thailand, cook it, and then ship it back. It would be much cheaper for them to just to buy Thai chickens and have them prepped there and shipped over here. Do you really believe that Tesco are shipping British-reared chickens over to Thailand and then shipping them back again? Do you honestly think that Tesco packaging fails to state that their chicken is British-reared because they just forgot to mention it? | |||
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"By the way has anyone noticed that some food products now have "Not for the EU" labels? My understanding was that Brexiteers were saying that food standards wouldn't drop, but if so why are these labels becoming more and more common?" This is just so that stuff produced in the British Isles can be sent over to Northern Ireland without someone 'accidentally' exporting it to the EU. It's just a badge to say "we haven't applied for an EU licence, so don't move this over the border". | |||
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"so the uk chicken is sent to thailand to be cooked .... so to avoid further confusion, what's your assertion now about substandard thai husbandry involved in rearing those chickens when they are reared in the uk? That's not my understanding of what happens. I believe that Tesco are sourcing their pre-cooked chicken directly from Thailand. I've seen no evidence that they send British reared chicken to be cooked and sliced in Thailand. It seems unlikely that would be economically viable, even with the latest increases to UK wages. do you have any evidence that tesco sources chickens reared in thailand then or is it merely your 'belief'? We know that the chicken has been in Thailand, because it says so on the label. I assume there's no argument there. Cooking and slicing a chicken takes electricity, which is pretty expensive in the UK. Even so, I'm going to say that's it's cheaper to do it here than it would be to send the chicken to Thailand, cook it, and then ship it back. It would be much cheaper for them to just to buy Thai chickens and have them prepped there and shipped over here. Do you really believe that Tesco are shipping British-reared chickens over to Thailand and then shipping them back again? Do you honestly think that Tesco packaging fails to state that their chicken is British-reared because they just forgot to mention it?" so are accusing tesco of lying when they say all of their chicken is reared uk or ireland then? | |||
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"so the uk chicken is sent to thailand to be cooked .... so to avoid further confusion, what's your assertion now about substandard thai husbandry involved in rearing those chickens when they are reared in the uk?" "That's not my understanding of what happens. I believe that Tesco are sourcing their pre-cooked chicken directly from Thailand. I've seen no evidence that they send British reared chicken to be cooked and sliced in Thailand. It seems unlikely that would be economically viable, even with the latest increases to UK wages." "do you have any evidence that tesco sources chickens reared in thailand then or is it merely your 'belief'?" "We know that the chicken has been in Thailand, because it says so on the label. I assume there's no argument there. Cooking and slicing a chicken takes electricity, which is pretty expensive in the UK. Even so, I'm going to say that's it's cheaper to do it here than it would be to send the chicken to Thailand, cook it, and then ship it back. It would be much cheaper for them to just to buy Thai chickens and have them prepped there and shipped over here. Do you really believe that Tesco are shipping British-reared chickens over to Thailand and then shipping them back again? Do you honestly think that Tesco packaging fails to state that their chicken is British-reared because they just forgot to mention it?" "so are accusing tesco of lying when they say all of their chicken is reared uk or ireland then?" They don't say that. They say that all of their *fresh* chicken is reared in the UK or Ireland. They make no claims about the origin of their cooked chicken products. | |||
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"This is just so that stuff produced in the British Isles can be sent over to Northern Ireland without someone 'accidentally' exporting it to the EU. It's just a badge to say "we haven't applied for an EU licence, so don't move this over the border"." But the NI market is about 2 million compared with an EU market of about 450 million and it was routine for UK products to be shipped to the EU before Brexit. | |||
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"This is just so that stuff produced in the British Isles can be sent over to Northern Ireland without someone 'accidentally' exporting it to the EU. It's just a badge to say "we haven't applied for an EU licence, so don't move this over the border"." "But the NI market is about 2 million compared with an EU market of about 450 million and it was routine for UK products to be shipped to the EU before Brexit." I'm not sure what your point is. I've not claimed that Brexit is good, or denied that things were different before it happened. Brexit has happened, and we are where we are. That means that we can't export stuff to the EU without a licence. Both sides agreed that there wouldn't be a physical border in Ireland. That means that stuff sent from Britain to Northern Ireland needs to be marked to make sure that those goods that don't have an export licence don't get moved across the border. That's what the "Not for the EU" labelling is about. It's nothing to do with food standards. Indeed, food standards have improved since Brexit. | |||
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"Yeah, I get all that but my point is that the profit available from a 450 million market compared with a 2 million market surely means it would be worth getting an EU license. So if they don't one possible answer is that the food wouldn't be acceptable in the EU." I see your thinking. That is one possible explanation, but British food standards are the same as those in Europe, and our animal husbandry standards are higher than all of Europe. None of our standards have been lowered since we left, so it's hard to see what you think might have happened to suddenly make UK produce unacceptable to the EU (other than the paperwork not having been filed). | |||
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. We've seen dire results in the water industry and how much of it was left to water companies to self-monitor etc.
With drastic cuts to the state in the USA, it wouldn't bode well for the UK, to rely on much US registration and enforcement etc | |||
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"I see your thinking. That is one possible explanation, but British food standards are the same as those in Europe, and our animal husbandry standards are higher than all of Europe. None of our standards have been lowered since we left, so it's hard to see what you think might have happened to suddenly make UK produce unacceptable to the EU (other than the paperwork not having been filed)." It might be that the products on our supermarket shelves with "Not for the EU" labels are not from the UK. Next time I see one I'll check the origin. I wouldn't be surprised if they are from the US. | |||
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"I have always enjoyed chicken (especially kfc) when I have been to the US. But don’t let the truth (it’s harmless) get in the way of a good crying party. Also nobody will be forced to buy any American imports if they don’t want to. Oh and while I’m here: Farage for PM. Go Nige Go Reform UK.
I can understand the concern but as you point out, you will not be forced to buy it. That said will you be buying it without knowing, i.e. chicken in ready meals. The labelling could be crucial. If the U.S. suppliers get their way about not having to label their products then I suggest all British suppliers make it very obvious on their labels that their chicken is chlorine free so people have the choice.
That is just the adults… what about for example manufacturers of kids school meals… obviously you are going to make money stretch as far as possible… in which case what would stop them using chlorinated chicken or HGH beef?
Anyway… as someone else said… US manufacturers can import into uk markets already… so long as they adhere to UK health and safety standards… if by doing that it increases their expenses, that’s not a UK problem! "I used ready meals as an example of how it could get complicated but school meals are another good example. My focus would be on current suppliers declaring on their labels that their product is chlorine free to mitigate the effect of American suppliers not wanting to show such things on their labels. Ready meals could also include such a message on labels, school dinner suppliers should inform parents of where they source any chicken. Personally I prefer the current British standards to be upheld in any future deal but if not, labelling is more important than ever | |||
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"Yeah, I get all that but my point is that the profit available from a 450 million market compared with a 2 million market surely means it would be worth getting an EU license. So if they don't one possible answer is that the food wouldn't be acceptable in the EU. I see your thinking. That is one possible explanation, but British food standards are the same as those in Europe, and our animal husbandry standards are higher than all of Europe. None of our standards have been lowered since we left, so it's hard to see what you think might have happened to suddenly make UK produce unacceptable to the EU (other than the paperwork not having been filed)." I understand what he is getting at… it’s basically a long running Brexit anomaly where because of the open border Northern Ireland was/is considered to be part of the “open market” … and you had a weird position that meat reared on the mainland could not be sold in Northern Ireland (obviously raising uk sovereignty issues) So the “label” was the best solution to make sure meat products could specifically be sold in Northern Ireland but not in the republic It’s sounds like a faff… at the moment there is no actual difference in eu food safety laws between the uk and the eu… it just means uk raw meat and dairy producers don’t need to fill out the paperwork for the Northern Ireland market | |||
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"so the uk chicken is sent to thailand to be cooked .... so to avoid further confusion, what's your assertion now about substandard thai husbandry involved in rearing those chickens when they are reared in the uk? That's not my understanding of what happens. I believe that Tesco are sourcing their pre-cooked chicken directly from Thailand. I've seen no evidence that they send British reared chicken to be cooked and sliced in Thailand. It seems unlikely that would be economically viable, even with the latest increases to UK wages. do you have any evidence that tesco sources chickens reared in thailand then or is it merely your 'belief'? We know that the chicken has been in Thailand, because it says so on the label. I assume there's no argument there. Cooking and slicing a chicken takes electricity, which is pretty expensive in the UK. Even so, I'm going to say that's it's cheaper to do it here than it would be to send the chicken to Thailand, cook it, and then ship it back. It would be much cheaper for them to just to buy Thai chickens and have them prepped there and shipped over here. Do you really believe that Tesco are shipping British-reared chickens over to Thailand and then shipping them back again? Do you honestly think that Tesco packaging fails to state that their chicken is British-reared because they just forgot to mention it? so are accusing tesco of lying when they say all of their chicken is reared uk or ireland then? They don't say that. They say that all of their *fresh* chicken is reared in the UK or Ireland. They make no claims about the origin of their cooked chicken products." but we're discussing the husbandry of fresh chicken ..... not processed chicken .... so you're comparing bananas to planks of wood for some ideological reason | |||
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"It’s sounds like a faff… at the moment there is no actual difference in eu food safety laws between the uk and the eu… it just means uk raw meat and dairy producers don’t need to fill out the paperwork for the Northern Ireland market" But as I said, given that the EU market is more that 200 times larger than the NI market why wouldn't companies fill out the paperwork? | |||
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"so are accusing tesco of lying when they say all of their chicken is reared uk or ireland then?" "They don't say that. They say that all of their *fresh* chicken is reared in the UK or Ireland. They make no claims about the origin of their cooked chicken products." "but we're discussing the husbandry of fresh chicken ..... not processed chicken .... so you're comparing bananas to planks of wood for some ideological reason" I don't know where you got that idea. You've not used the word 'fresh' in any of your previous posts, and I made it very clear that I was talking about cooked processed products. | |||
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"so are accusing tesco of lying when they say all of their chicken is reared uk or ireland then? They don't say that. They say that all of their *fresh* chicken is reared in the UK or Ireland. They make no claims about the origin of their cooked chicken products. but we're discussing the husbandry of fresh chicken ..... not processed chicken .... so you're comparing bananas to planks of wood for some ideological reason I don't know where you got that idea. You've not used the word 'fresh' in any of your previous posts, and I made it very clear that I was talking about cooked processed products." no, you've been talking garbage as usual  | |||
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"It’s sounds like a faff… at the moment there is no actual difference in eu food safety laws between the uk and the eu… it just means uk raw meat and dairy producers don’t need to fill out the paperwork for the Northern Ireland market" "But as I said, given that the EU market is more that 200 times larger than the NI market why wouldn't companies fill out the paperwork?" Because it's complex and you need specialist staff. Why would a small company bother with the expense if they are only intending to sell in the UK? Even a company like Tesco, if they wanted to operate in France, would find it easier to source their products from the EU, and thus avoid the paperwork. | |||
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"anyway, the broader question that should be asked is why nutty nige wants to open the flood gates to imports and reduce uk economic growth in the process ... he's a turkey voting for christmas" Because his projected beer drinking image of being a supporter of working class people is a total sham. Just like Trump pretends to be concerned about the average Joe in the US while doing everything possible to dump on average Joe in order to make himself and his mates richer and more powerful. | |||
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"Because it's complex and you need specialist staff. Why would a small company bother with the expense if they are only intending to sell in the UK? Even a company like Tesco, if they wanted to operate in France, would find it easier to source their products from the EU, and thus avoid the paperwork." Maybe you are right, although I think the idea behind the Brexit negotiations was supposed to be that there wouldn't be significant barriers when exporting to the EU. I can see that for very small companies who aren't capable of growth it might not be worthwhile filling in the paperwork but would they really need specialist staff to fill in the forms? As for Tesco they're making a profit of nearly £3 billion a year from their current operation so probably aren't thinking much about exports. I believe they experimented with opening stores on the continent a while back and gave up because they couldn't compete in that market. | |||
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"so are accusing tesco of lying when they say all of their chicken is reared uk or ireland then?" "They don't say that. They say that all of their *fresh* chicken is reared in the UK or Ireland. They make no claims about the origin of their cooked chicken products." "but we're discussing the husbandry of fresh chicken ..... not processed chicken .... so you're comparing bananas to planks of wood for some ideological reason" "I don't know where you got that idea. You've not used the word 'fresh' in any of your previous posts, and I made it very clear that I was talking about cooked processed products." "no, you've been talking garbage as usual" Ah! We've finally got the the stage where you can't think of any other directions to move the goalposts, so you resort to personal abuse. | |||
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" can understand why you are pointing out school meals. I remember when it was revealed that they were feeding children Halal meat without telling anyone, let alone the children’s parents. So they could potentially use US chicken in school meals…" What's wrong with Halal meat? | |||
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" can understand why you are pointing out school meals. I remember when it was revealed that they were feeding children Halal meat without telling anyone, let alone the children’s parents. So they could potentially use US chicken in school meals… What's wrong with Halal meat?" I never said there was anything wrong with it, but I would question the method of the way those animals are slaughtered. What I was saying was that I agree that US chicken could end up in our children’s school meals. | |||
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" can understand why you are pointing out school meals. I remember when it was revealed that they were feeding children Halal meat without telling anyone, let alone the children’s parents. So they could potentially use US chicken in school meals…" "What's wrong with Halal meat?" "I never said there was anything wrong with it, but I would question the method of the way those animals are slaughtered." You might question it, but it is legal. I'm not sure why you think that the school needed to tell anyone how their meat was slaughtered (assuming that they knew), or why you feel that it needed to be 'revealed'. | |||
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"so are accusing tesco of lying when they say all of their chicken is reared uk or ireland then? They don't say that. They say that all of their *fresh* chicken is reared in the UK or Ireland. They make no claims about the origin of their cooked chicken products. but we're discussing the husbandry of fresh chicken ..... not processed chicken .... so you're comparing bananas to planks of wood for some ideological reason I don't know where you got that idea. You've not used the word 'fresh' in any of your previous posts, and I made it very clear that I was talking about cooked processed products. no, you've been talking garbage as usual Ah! We've finally got the the stage where you can't think of any other directions to move the goalposts, so you resort to personal abuse." get a grip .... there's no personal abuse involved when i've called out the conspiracy theory website nonsence that you have posted as being garbage  | |||
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"Because it's complex and you need specialist staff. Why would a small company bother with the expense if they are only intending to sell in the UK? Even a company like Tesco, if they wanted to operate in France, would find it easier to source their products from the EU, and thus avoid the paperwork. Maybe you are right, although I think the idea behind the Brexit negotiations was supposed to be that there wouldn't be significant barriers when exporting to the EU. I can see that for very small companies who aren't capable of growth it might not be worthwhile filling in the paperwork but would they really need specialist staff to fill in the forms? As for Tesco they're making a profit of nearly £3 billion a year from their current operation so probably aren't thinking much about exports. I believe they experimented with opening stores on the continent a while back and gave up because they couldn't compete in that market. " yes, they did try, but the likes of carefour, intermarche and auchan were just too dominant and have too much of a hold on food production in the background | |||
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"I have always enjoyed chicken (especially kfc) when I have been to the US. But don’t let the truth (it’s harmless) get in the way of a good crying party. Also nobody will be forced to buy any American imports if they don’t want to. Oh and while I’m here: Farage for PM. Go Nige Go Reform UK. "Oh well since you say u enjoyed it and saying it safe, we all better believe it. Typical trump and farage supporter. If they said jump out of a plane without a parachute you would be on here trumpeting that it's safe | |||
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"Fuck me! We’re all food standards and animal welfare experts now. Many people on here are sounding a lot like the great astronaut and cosmic explorer, Katie Perry." In the USA around 40% of adults are obese, with an even higher percentage (75%) being overweight or obese. A doubling in obesity rates among both men and women between 1990 and 2021. Uk less so but increasing. Lack of exercise and diet, access to healthy food are cited as causes. Buying into the American food system will take us down the same path. | |||
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"yes, they did try, but the likes of carefour, intermarche and auchan were just too dominant and have too much of a hold on food production in the background" You are probably right, there seems to be an Intermache store on virtually every street in Portugal, although I prefer Pingo Doce. | |||
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" can understand why you are pointing out school meals. I remember when it was revealed that they were feeding children Halal meat without telling anyone, let alone the children’s parents. So they could potentially use US chicken in school meals…" They could but like the labelling on store bought chicken, the suppliers of school meals should be made to declare if they are using chlorine chicken and let the parents / children decide if they want to continue. Same with hospital food, it should be made known what they are feeding people. Information could be key | |||
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"Fuck me! We’re all food standards and animal welfare experts now. Many people on here are sounding a lot like the great astronaut and cosmic explorer, Katie Perry. In the USA around 40% of adults are obese, with an even higher percentage (75%) being overweight or obese. A doubling in obesity rates among both men and women between 1990 and 2021. Uk less so but increasing. Lack of exercise and diet, access to healthy food are cited as causes. Buying into the American food system will take us down the same path. " For the avoidance of doubt, are you saying Americans are fat because of the chlorine in their chicken? What about the ones who aren’t fat? Do they not eat chicken? | |||
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"I have always enjoyed chicken (especially kfc) when I have been to the US. But don’t let the truth (it’s harmless) get in the way of a good crying party. Also nobody will be forced to buy any American imports if they don’t want to. Oh and while I’m here: Farage for PM. Go Nige Go Reform UK.
Oh well since you say u enjoyed it and saying it safe, we all better believe it. Typical trump and farage supporter. If they said jump out of a plane without a parachute you would be on here trumpeting that it's safe"No I wouldn’t, that’s just silly… | |||
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" can understand why you are pointing out school meals. I remember when it was revealed that they were feeding children Halal meat without telling anyone, let alone the children’s parents. So they could potentially use US chicken in school meals…" Would you have a problem with kosher meat being fed without telling anyone as you seem to do with halal? Just curious? | |||
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"For the avoidance of doubt, are you saying Americans are fat because of the chlorine in their chicken? What about the ones who aren’t fat? Do they not eat chicken?" I don't think there's any link between chlorinated chicken and obesity in the US population. It's hard to know what underlying causes there might beyond diet but US society revolves around the automobile. Things like walking and cycling are difficult to do because, apart from in a few cities, everything is built around car use. It's considered completely normal to get in your car to drive one or two hundred metres to shop for something then drive back. I've heard of people being stopped and questioned by police for walking, as it's considered so weird. | |||
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"Morgan Spurlock's Super Size Me 2 is a real eye opener to the US chicken industry. Birds forced to grow so quickly that their young leg muscles can't support the weight. " You can apply that to all battery farmed chicken. Unless you can be sure you are buying organic products when eating out or shopping you will always be eating shit | |||
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"This might be the right time to remind everyone that our drinking water (you know it comes out of our taps), is chlorinated, and to a higher extent, so is the water in our public baths. It is used here for all manner of things. It is no big deal. If it is cheaper I will buy it." The way things are going, the US will probably ship the chicken without any cleaning done to it. The plan aimed to reduce an estimated 125,000 salmonella infections from chicken and 43,000 from turkey each year, according to USDA. Overall, salmonella causes 1.35 million infections a year, most through food, and about 420 deaths, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ap-us-med-poultry-salmonella_n_680af736e4b042d1248583ad | |||
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"By the way, I found a jar of hot-dog sausages in the supermarket the other day that was marked "Not for the EU". I checked the label and it was manufactured in Germany. So a German company is shipping processed meat products to the UK that they couldn't sell in their own country." Again - if they are exporting them to the UK, they need to mark them "Not for the EU" so that they don't get taken over the border from Northern Ireland into Eire. The company has done the paperwork to get the hotdogs into the UK, but it hasn't done export paperwork to have them re-imported back into the EU. | |||
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"This might be the right time to remind everyone that our drinking water (you know it comes out of our taps), is chlorinated, and to a higher extent, so is the water in our public baths. It is used here for all manner of things. It is no big deal. If it is cheaper I will buy it." There is no problem with the chlorine wash, it is the welfare of the chickens that is the problem. Here we have stricter animal welfare practices, Red Tractor, that remove the need for a chlorine wash. | |||
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"Again - if they are exporting them to the UK, they need to mark them "Not for the EU" so that they don't get taken over the border from Northern Ireland into Eire. The company has done the paperwork to get the hotdogs into the UK, but it hasn't done export paperwork to have them re-imported back into the EU." Why would any company make products in the EU that can't be sold in the EU? | |||
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"Again - if they are exporting them to the UK, they need to mark them "Not for the EU" so that they don't get taken over the border from Northern Ireland into Eire. The company has done the paperwork to get the hotdogs into the UK, but it hasn't done export paperwork to have them re-imported back into the EU. Why would any company make products in the EU that can't be sold in the EU?" It is marked “Not for EU” to show it’s not authorised for free movement within the EU. Our food standards are very aligned but there are differences with labelling that might make it not fit for the EU market too. To be fair hotdogs could throw up a number of issues why they can't be sold | |||
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"It is marked “Not for EU” to show it’s not authorised for free movement within the EU. Our food standards are very aligned but there are differences with labelling that might make it not fit for the EU market too. To be fair hotdogs could throw up a number of issues why they can't be sold "There are large numbers of food products on our supermarket shelves that are made in the EU that don't have "Not for the EU" labels on them. What I'm really trying to understand is why any EU company exporting to the UK wouldn't also get their product certified as suitable for their home market. It seems strange just from a business practice point of view to limit a product to a relatively small external market. | |||
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"It is marked “Not for EU” to show it’s not authorised for free movement within the EU. Our food standards are very aligned but there are differences with labelling that might make it not fit for the EU market too. To be fair hotdogs could throw up a number of issues why they can't be sold
There are large numbers of food products on our supermarket shelves that are made in the EU that don't have "Not for the EU" labels on them.
What I'm really trying to understand is why any EU company exporting to the UK wouldn't also get their product certified as suitable for their home market. It seems strange just from a business practice point of view to limit a product to a relatively small external market.
"It could be labelling, I know there is a difference with food labelling. | |||
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"What I'm really trying to understand is why any EU company exporting to the UK wouldn't also get their product certified as suitable for their home market. It seems strange just from a business practice point of view to limit a product to a relatively small external market." It's not because of product certification, it's down to export licensing. The manufacturer hasn't filled in the paperwork that would allow the hotdogs to be taken from Northern Ireland into Eire, so they put a label on the package to make sure that no one does that. | |||
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"It's not because of product certification, it's down to export licensing. The manufacturer hasn't filled in the paperwork that would allow the hotdogs to be taken from Northern Ireland into Eire, so they put a label on the package to make sure that no one does that." We are going around in circles here, but why then don't the vast majority of EU food products in the UK market have "Not for the EU" labels? Presumably they too could go from NI to Eire, so any paper work involved can't be a big deal. Indeed why would it be a big hurdle for EU products to be licensed for sale in the EU? This would be the default position of any sensible business owner surely. | |||
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"It's not because of product certification, it's down to export licensing. The manufacturer hasn't filled in the paperwork that would allow the hotdogs to be taken from Northern Ireland into Eire, so they put a label on the package to make sure that no one does that." "We are going around in circles here, but why then don't the vast majority of EU food products in the UK market have "Not for the EU" labels?" Possibly because they are willing to take the risk. Some companies will have been caught moving stuff to the EU, and will have added the labels to make sure it doesn't happen again. "Indeed why would it be a big hurdle for EU products to be licensed for sale in the EU?" For the last time, it's not about the quality of the product, or its fitness to be sold in the EU. The problem is that there is a huge amount of complex paperwork to be filled out to legally export a product from the UK to the EU. Taking a product across the border from Northern Ireland to Eire counts as 'exporting to the EU', and so needs paperwork. The manufacturers don't want to do that for the very small number of products that might be taken across, so they just put a "Not for EU" label on the package. This absolves them of responsibility if someone does take the product over the border. It's the same sort of reasoning that sees packets of peanuts have a warning on the label that says "may contain nuts". | |||
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"It's not because of product certification, it's down to export licensing. The manufacturer hasn't filled in the paperwork that would allow the hotdogs to be taken from Northern Ireland into Eire, so they put a label on the package to make sure that no one does that. We are going around in circles here, but why then don't the vast majority of EU food products in the UK market have "Not for the EU" labels? Presumably they too could go from NI to Eire, so any paper work involved can't be a big deal. Indeed why would it be a big hurdle for EU products to be licensed for sale in the EU? This would be the default position of any sensible business owner surely. " Okay let me give it a go….. For the purposes of the explanation you have to go back to the Brexit agreement Draw a venn diagram … GB in one circle, EU common market in the other, the overlapping bit is “northern Ireland “ In effect where the mainland Uk is outside of the eu customs market… northern Ireland remains inside the customs market (to solve the Irish non border issue) One country (great Britain) having separate rules Now… where in theory everything needs documentation, in practice they decided that should really only apply to certain things (raw or processed meats, diary ect..) So in theory because of the agreement, a sausage made in Scotland could not be sold in northern Ireland without paperwork being done or vice versa What they decided to do to get around this was to have the stickers… so what the stickers is basically saying is that not done the paperwork.. so it can be sold within GB, but not sold in the republic (EU) | |||
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"It's the same sort of reasoning that sees packets of peanuts have a warning on the label that says "may contain nuts"." The reason for the "may contain nuts" labelling is that peanuts aren't nuts and that the same production line may have previously handled actual nuts. | |||
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"Possibly because they are willing to take the risk. Some companies will have been caught moving stuff to the EU, and will have added the labels to make sure it doesn't happen again." So if a German company makes sausages that are legal to sell in the EU and ships them to the UK with the appropriate paperwork to satisfy the UK authorities that they are OK and then the sausages make their way back into the EU, the German company would be prosecuted. Do I have that right? | |||
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"IOkay let me give it a go….. For the purposes of the explanation you have to go back to the Brexit agreement Draw a venn diagram … GB in one circle, EU common market in the other, the overlapping bit is “northern Ireland “ In effect where the mainland Uk is outside of the eu customs market… northern Ireland remains inside the customs market (to solve the Irish non border issue) One country (great Britain) having separate rules Now… where in theory everything needs documentation, in practice they decided that should really only apply to certain things (raw or processed meats, diary ect..) So in theory because of the agreement, a sausage made in Scotland could not be sold in northern Ireland without paperwork being done or vice versa What they decided to do to get around this was to have the stickers… so what the stickers is basically saying is that not done the paperwork.. so it can be sold within GB, but not sold in the republic (EU)" I get all that. Although you seem to be getting the UK and GB mixed up - the UK is GB plus NI. I can understand that a small company in Scotland might not want to bother with the EU paperwork so put "Not for the EU" on their labels. What I'm struggling with is why any EU company would make a product that they would be prosected for if it got back from the UK to the EU when presumably EU companies routinely make products that they sell in the EU. It would be like an English cheese maker putting "Not for the UK" on cheese it sells to the EU. | |||
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"Possibly because they are willing to take the risk. Some companies will have been caught moving stuff to the EU, and will have added the labels to make sure it doesn't happen again." "So if a German company makes sausages that are legal to sell in the EU and ships them to the UK with the appropriate paperwork to satisfy the UK authorities that they are OK and then the sausages make their way back into the EU, the German company would be prosecuted. Do I have that right? " Yes (sort of). The German company could be prosecuted if it was determined that they did it deliberately. So if a tourist takes one sausage over the border, no problem. If a delivery lorry accidentally delivers the wrong pallet to a shop in the EU, the manufacturer could be prosecuted for exporting without a licence. The EU takes a dim view of this and will accuse you of attempting to circumvent customs rules, unless you can categorically prove it wasn't deliberate. Labelling the product makes it clear that there was no intention to export to the EU, and it was just a mistake. | |||
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"Yes (sort of). The German company could be prosecuted if it was determined that they did it deliberately. So if a tourist takes one sausage over the border, no problem. If a delivery lorry accidentally delivers the wrong pallet to a shop in the EU, the manufacturer could be prosecuted for exporting without a licence. The EU takes a dim view of this and will accuse you of attempting to circumvent customs rules, unless you can categorically prove it wasn't deliberate. Labelling the product makes it clear that there was no intention to export to the EU, and it was just a mistake." I don't get how an EU product made by an EU company that conforms to EU food standards ending up in the EU could be classed as either an export or an import by the EU. Just like I don't see how some of my hypothetical English cheese maker's cheese intended for export to the EU ending up on UK supermarket shelves would break any rules. Assuming it conformed to UK food standards of course. | |||
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" What I'm struggling with is why any EU company would make a product that they would be prosected for if it got back from the UK to the EU when presumably EU companies routinely make products that they sell in the EU. It would be like an English cheese maker putting "Not for the UK" on cheese it sells to the EU. " I know what you are saying… sounds absurd… we argued this would happen at the time of the referendum… Boris and the leave side said there would be no issue
Basically regardless of how many times it crosses the customs border.. it would require paperwork even if there is no difference in standards
So the English cheese would require paperwork to enter the customs union.. and if it the cheese was to then come back, the UK would require paperwork for it to come back in….
The German sausage going to Northern Ireland is more crazy … if it goes in a plane or a ship directly … or via the republic, it doesn’t need anything as it never in theory leaves the customs union
If it goes via Great Britain (the mainland) to NI , then it will need the paperwork and the “not for sale in the EU” sticker….. | |||
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"I don't get how an EU product made by an EU company that conforms to EU food standards ending up in the EU could be classed as either an export or an import by the EU." That's because you aren't listening to what people are saying. It's nothing to do with food standards, or product quality. The paperwork that needs to be completed is to allow an object to cross the border. If the object is sent from the EU to the UK, it becomes a UK object. Not UK manufactured or produced, just an object that is in the UK. If someone wants to take that object back to the EU, they can't just turn up at the border and say "look mate, it says on the packet 'Made in Germany', so it must be OK". No, that person needs to prove that it was made in Germany, and that it meets EU standards, and is of sufficient quality. That means filling in lots of paperwork, before making the attempt to cross the border. Anyone found to have moved stuff across the border without the appropriate paperwork will soon find themselves in court, where it won't matter that the object was EU compliant, because the offence is bringing an object across the border without permission. | |||
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"That's because you aren't listening to what people are saying. " I am listening, it's just that what you are describing is batsh*t crazy. It means that every export license needs to be matched with an import license for the exact same goods unless there's a prominant "Not for sale where this product came from" label. Perhaps there should be more publicity about this to avoid liabilities as I'm pretty sure that most UK exporters don't have import licenses for their exports or "Not for the UK" labels plastered all over them, just as most EU exporters don't have import licenses for their exports or "Not for the EU" labels. | |||
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"That's because you aren't listening to what people are saying." "I am listening, it's just that what you are describing is batsh*t crazy." It would appear that you've never had to deal with the EU before. Lucky you. | |||
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"It would appear that you've never had to deal with the EU before. Lucky you." I've lived most of my life in the EU (or the EC or EEC as it used to be known). Never seen this kind of nonsense before. | |||
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"It would appear that you've never had to deal with the EU before. Lucky you. I've lived most of my life in the EU (or the EC or EEC as it used to be known). Never seen this kind of nonsense before." Because as part of the “customs union” all standards on everything were there same and as a perk of being part of that they allowed people to move anything free of the paperwork…. But now because “England, wales and Scotland “ are not part of the customs union… the paperwork perks have gone | |||
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"Would you welcome the relaxation of food standards here, allowing importation of US food stuffs? Nigel Farage thinks we should be happy with it " Food standards are already reduced with the uk e.u fta. Chlorinated chicken makes up less than 5% of all usa chicken produced. There are other washes used on chicken now. The same washes used on vegetables in the e.u. | |||
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"We only only buy Free range chicken , cost more but you can taste the difference opposed to battery hens , I won’t touch chlorinated chicken , send it back " 100% agree. I don’t even eat supermarket chicken. Butchers chicken is a million times better for you. | |||
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