FabSwingers.com forum: Madelaine McCann

By *ushroom7 OP Man
over a year ago

Bradford

If Madelaine is ever found alive should she be returned to her parents?

Are Kate and Gerry McCann fit and proper people to care for her?

Would Madelaine be harmed by being returned to her natural parents?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Perhaps Kate and Gerry will put her on ebay.

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By *ENGUYMan
over a year ago

Hull

If Madelaine is ever found alive should she be returned to her parents?

Are Kate and Gerry McCann fit and proper people to care for her?

Would Madelaine be harmed by being returned to her natural parents?"

Will she recognise them??????????

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By *inkershoes69Woman
over a year ago

maidstone

hopefully they wud of learned from there mistake

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

It's a big 'IF', but I don't see why not.... unless something else is revealed.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

Have they had thee other children taken away from them in light if leaving them all alone in the room when madeline went missing?

To my knowledge no, not even sure they were investigated for it so I see no reason why the authorities wouldn't let them have her back really.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Well if there was no proof that the McCanns had anything to do with their daughters disappearance and judging by the fact that Madeleine was not abused at home, then yes of course she should go home. Would it be right to move the child into a strange foster home, after all the trauma of being taken from her parents in the first place?

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By *emima_puddlefuckCouple
over a year ago

hexham

"Well if there was no proof that the McCanns had anything to do with their daughters disappearance and judging by the fact that Madeleine was not abused at home, then yes of course she should go home. Would it be right to move the child into a strange foster home, after all the trauma of being taken from her parents in the first place?"

Agreed.Of course given her age when she disappeared the reunion would have to be slowly and sensativly handled.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

whilst there was no sign of abuse at home etc everyone does seem to be skirting over the issue that they left 3 young children alone in a strange holiday appartment while they went out to have a nice dinner with friends.

Why is this overlooked so much?? its ridiculous!!

i guess you could say that they pay for that everyday she is missing etc but i am sorry that doesnt wash with me!! what they did was inexcusable. you have kids you look after them, you want to go out but have no sitter service - you take them with you or stay in!!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

And if they been off a council estate down the pub the media would have slated them

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By *agman n angelCouple
over a year ago

benidorm

"whilst there was no sign of abuse at home etc everyone does seem to be skirting over the issue that they left 3 young children alone in a strange holiday appartment while they went out to have a nice dinner with friends.

Why is this overlooked so much?? its ridiculous!!

100% agreement

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why is this overlooked so much?? its ridiculous!!

But if leaving your children in an apartment while you sat outside a few minutes away from that apartment was classed as abuse, then millions of children would be on the At risk register or placed in care, in fact millions of children are in hotel rooms right this minute while their parents are having a drink in the downstairs bar etc, It isnt abuse - stupid and irresponsible yes, but not abuse.

I agree that you should take children with you or stay in, I always took mine out with me, its not a problem. What you have to take into account in the main, is the child's wellbeing, not a punishment to the parents' wrongdoing, so if Madeleine was ever found, yes she should be returned to her parents with a package of support in place. I dont think it will ever happen though because I dont think they will find her.

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By *inkershoes69Woman
over a year ago

maidstone

they left the children all under 5! 2 me that is inexcusable! did any one notice the swimming pool outside the apartment? they left the apartment open what would of happened if she had gone looking for her selfish parents

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

Why is this overlooked so much?? its ridiculous!!

i never said what they did was the same as abuse but i do think that it is a convenient fact that seems to get overlooked whenever this subject is discussed.

my recolection of the situation is a bit hazy and will go off and research this but from what i can remember the restaurant they were at wasnt just opposite their appartment, it was a fair way from where they were staying

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

ben needham disappeared years ago and his family was not given the same support by the government or the media.

i think and people may hate me for saying this.

but i think something sinister happened on that holiday and its been one big cover up.

and to be honest im sick of seeing the parents on tv like some bad dream.

piss poor parents they were in the first place.

ok.start hating me.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"ben needham disappeared years ago and his family was not given the same support by the government or the media.

i think and people may hate me for saying this.

but i think something sinister happened on that holiday and its been one big cover up.

and to be honest im sick of seeing the parents on tv like some bad dream.

piss poor parents they were in the first place.

ok.start hating me."

Dont hate ya

Agree with most of it

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By *umourCouple
over a year ago

Rushden

And it was very telling, that in an inter_iew on Womans Hour, Radio 4 on Wednesday I think, Kate McCann said that it seemed like the twins had been drugged! She said they just lay there while all the noise went on and never moved!

If I were a psycologist, I might say that was a statement made to shift attention from them. If poor Maddie is ever found and she is not alive, the phorensics people will be able to isolate any drugs used at the time from any remains found!

Why would anyone who was just snatching a little girl, stay around long enough to force feed two small children with drugs? Why would they have bothered? It just means more chance of getting caught!!

IMHO, there is more to this story that we have been told...

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By *omnlynneCouple
over a year ago

milton keynes

they ask for a full re_iew by the police but in order to save the taxpayer a fortune in wasted police time and resource the findings will be:

you left them alone and went out!!!!

i hope that she is found safe and well but i think and fear the worst and i still think in my heart of hearts that the parents had a hand in whatever happened to madeline

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By *plpxp2Couple
over a year ago

Middlesbrough

Why is this overlooked so much?? its ridiculous!!

i never said what they did was the same as abuse but i do think that it is a convenient fact that seems to get overlooked whenever this subject is discussed.

Unfortunately leaving children in a situation where they are at risk or unable to deal with a situation is defined under child protection procedures as neglect. therefore it is abuse. It may be unpalatable and lots of people may have been lucky, but it does not detract from the fact that they neglected their duty as parents.

As another poster has highlighted had this been in a different setting and parents from a different social group then action would have been taken.

All of that said I can imagine they have punished themselves far more than any state intervention would have done and will continue to do so for the rest of their lives.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"they ask for a full re_iew by the police but in order to save the taxpayer a fortune in wasted police time and resource the findings will be:

you left them alone and went out!!!!

i hope that she is found safe and well but i think and fear the worst and i still think in my heart of hearts that the parents had a hand in whatever happened to madeline"

The re_iew isn't about who should be blamed for what. You have a very blinkered opinion if that's what you believe the re_iew is for.

The re_iew is to ...um... REVIEW... all the evidence available to see if something was missed that could lead to Maddie's abductor/s and ultimately to recovering Maddie herself, alive or dead.

It really does incense me that there is a real lack of compassion for two people going through what could be described as the most horrific ordeal any parent could go through with the exception of a child murdered - and they still have that to contend with if Maddie is found dead.

What enrages me even more are those on here saying it's their own goddam fault for being rich fuckers.

There are too many jealous have-nots in our society who use their lack of ability to raise their own lifestyles as a reason to slag off those that have done well for themselves.

An abducted child is quite a leveller of playing fields though and let's not forget that Maddie is still a British citizen and that entitles her to every resource this country can muster to get her home one way or another.

Including support from the general public for her, and for her parents, as I find it difficult to understand how some of you want her found and then returned to irresponsible child abusing parents. What hypocritical bollocks.

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By *obbytupperMan
over a year ago

Menston near Ilkley

I agree totally with Wishy, some posters show no compassion and even resort to accusation.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Not saying it's their fault for being "rich fuckers" as you put it. Just saying it's their fault for leaving them in the first place.

And you really can't convince me that if they were a bit rough with no jobs for example that they would be treated the same as the McCanns have by the press. May have done at first but they wouldn't have had the coveridge that these two useless bloody parents have managed to sustain over the years.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

For me I feel very honoured to be in the presence of such amazing parents on here, I bow my head to you all, curtsy even, and you should be held up as the epitome of good parenting, none of you have obviously ever made a mistake.

Leaving children alone is neglect but when this is suspected, child protection meetings are held to negate the level of risk, how long has it been going on for, what support can the parents be given to aid better parenting, what is the best option for the child. The McCanns didn't regularly go out drinking down the town every night, they didn't starve or keep the children unkempt or spend money on drink or fags rather than necessaties for children. I remember a case when a mother went to Ibiza for a week leaving young toddlers, now that's abuse. Leaving sleeping children in apartments while you have a drink with friends 150 mtrs away whilst on holiday is not abuse. Its irresponsible, but a one off mistake.

A big issue here seems to be the supposed wealth of the parents. If any other bad parenting had been uncovered either before Maddie went missing or in the following years after, then those children remaining would have been removed - they haven't and don't believe that there hasn't been social work assessments cause I'm sure there has, the parents were suspects in a kidnapping case.

The reason why people say that rougher parents would have been treated differently is cause usually there are other things going on, inappropriate babysitters, kids not having food and clothes cos parents are spending it on drugs, fags and alcohol and having inappropriate sexual partners with no stability for the kids - some would even say swinging whilst kids are in house is abuse, after all do you really know who you're having in the house

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I know this is going of topic but take the young girls that have been abducted all over the world such as Jaycee Dugard abducted when she was 11 and held for 18 years. These brave girls that are found years later. And given back to the family.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

@iconic's post: Hear Hear!! Well said.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Of course she should... they made a mistake... one which lots of parents although won't admit to it have perhaps done... although not saying all...

But for their judgement error they have paid the ultimate price....

So yes, she should be.

Katie x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

A few years ago in Wales, a little girl was snatched during the night from a garden tent whilst asleep.

Were her parents neglectful and abusive?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So i`m assuming that all the peeps who are vilifying the parents have also no sympathy for Sara Payne, the mother of an 8 year old who was let out into a field (behind her grandparents house and out of sight) by her parents, abducted, raped and killed by a paedofile. Should she have had her other children also taken into care ??????? Come on guys !!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So i`m assuming that all the peeps who are vilifying the parents have also no sympathy for Sara Payne, the mother of an 8 year old who was let out into a field (behind her grandparents house and out of sight) by her parents, abducted, raped and killed by a paedofile. Should she have had her other children also taken into care ??????? Come on guys !!"

Glad somebody is making sense, folks need to get a grip on reality!

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By *oantrimcpl2010Couple
over a year ago

Lisburn

Most of us as parents, will do our upmost to protect our children, most will make error of judgements, i know i have, but we learn from them. We cannot look after our children 24/7 its impossible. There has been many atrositcies in our society and i emphasize with them, as parents, siblings and friends should we not all be pulling together as a society to try and protect the innocent, instead of jumping on bandwagons and slating people that have alreday been to hell and back maybe a 1000 times over. If as much energy was put into this as the slating we maybe able to get somewhere.

Before im slated this is my opinion only

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If Madelaine is ever found alive should she be returned to her parents?

Are Kate and Gerry McCann fit and proper people to care for her?

Would Madelaine be harmed by being returned to her natural parents?

Will she recognise them??????????"

she would if she reads 'the sun'

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

They made a terrible mistake and paid a price that not many can begin to comprehend, but we all make mistakes. Time for some forgiveness and sympathy.

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By *taffs_hotwifeCouple
over a year ago

Wolverhampton

"For me I feel very honoured to be in the presence of such amazing parents on here, I bow my head to you all, curtsy even, and you should be held up as the epitome of good parenting, none of you have obviously ever made a mistake.

This is the most reasoned post on this subject and we totally agree.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

"What enrages me even more are those on here saying it's their own goddam fault for being rich fuckers.

I really don't know why that rages you, as I didn't see anyone say that at all.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

For me, No matter where they come from, no matter what job they have, no matter how much money they may have.....they left their three children alone in an apartment while they went on the piss.

Yes, there are other people who have done the same, including the people they were drinking and eating with, but they were the ones who have now lost their child because of it. I can't imagine the guilt they have to deal with now.

If she is found give her back to her parents? I bet they wouldn't let her out of their sight a second time.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Most of us as parents, will do our upmost to protect our children, most will make error of judgements, i know i have, but we learn from them. We cannot look after our children 24/7 its impossible. There has been many atrositcies in our society and i emphasize with them, as parents, siblings and friends should we not all be pulling together as a society to try and protect the innocent, instead of jumping on bandwagons and slating people that have alreday been to hell and back maybe a 1000 times over. If as much energy was put into this as the slating we maybe able to get somewhere.

Before im slated this is my opinion only"

Pertinent post. Unfortunately, the days seems to have gone when friends and neighbours cared and young children would always be accompanied by older children when out playing. Local networks have disintegrated just as our society has and its about time some positive encouragement was considered by government to support action groups to re-integrate and to remind us all that love is more important than money when bringing up kids.

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By *adchickCouple
over a year ago

Cyprus

I don't think she will ever be found.

Nothing makes sense in this .... to me.

I personally, in my own opinion, think the parent(s) killed her (possibly by accident) and that the only reason that they carry this charade on, is to ensure THEY are never caught or implicated.

My opinion and many others like me feel the same.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What enrages me even more are those on here saying it's their own goddam fault for being rich fuckers.

I really don't know why that rages you, as I didn't see anyone say that at all.

I think people are confusing the media coverage and how it was handled with respect to their profession and wealth.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

"What enrages me even more are those on here saying it's their own goddam fault for being rich fuckers.

I really don't know why that rages you, as I didn't see anyone say that at all.

I think people are confusing the media coverage and how it was handled with respect to their profession and wealth. "

Yes I get that bit Pussy, and yes, people are saying this may not have been reported the same way if the people were from a council estate and let's face it, that is probably right, as the media will try and dig up any bit of dirt they can. If people don't live the way others do because of less money ( wether thats their fault or not) then it will be a godsend to anyone wanting to report negatively.

But that is different to someone saying it is their own fault they have lost their kid is because they are rich fuckers.

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By *histler21Man
over a year ago

Ipswich

Yes - she should be returned to them.

No, the Met should not investigate/re_iew the evidence.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What enrages me even more are those on here saying it's their own goddam fault for being rich fuckers.

I really don't know why that rages you, as I didn't see anyone say that at all.

I didn't want to trawl through the entire thread requoting the posts that basically said, "They're rich doctors, I bet the kids of poor chavs wouldn't have got the same exposure."

This isn't about who's got the most money, it's about a missing little girl who is British and should have whatever resources needed to find her as any other British citizen would.

The Shannon Matthews case proved that any class divide is totally ignored when a missing child is being sought.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

Saying they are rich doctors and I bet chavs wouldn't have got the same exposure is not the same as " it's their own goddam fault for being rich fuckers."

The media will try and dig up any bit of dirt they can, no matter what the subject is.

If people don't live the way others do because of less money ( wether thats their fault or not) then it will be a godsend to anyone wanting to report negatively.

I am a realist, it does happen.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

It is a terrible thing that has happened and I have no doubt that they are going through hell all I questioned wad whether they were investigated due to leaving the children alone in a foreign country while they went out and enjoyed themselves. I never said the other children should have been taken off of them I just questioned if they had been investigated.

My sister lives across the road from a pub probably closer than the mccanns were on the night in question but you can bet your bottom dollar that if she ever left her children home alone to go have a drink the authorities would be round questioning her and her ability to look after her children.

Like others have said returning a child that had been missing for so long would need a very well crafted support plan to minimise any stress on all involved.

That being said my personal opinion on this matter is along the lines of maddie here. Far too many questions unanswered for my liking. Something just doesn't sit right.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" .............

No, the Met should not investigate/re_iew the evidence."

There's a bit of a problem with that.

The mother wrote an open letter to the Sun (which made the Sun a lot of money in increased circulation).

Murdoch leant on Cameron and told him he wants the Metropolitan Police to investigate.

Cameron knows he doesn't have the authority to do that so he leant on Theresa May.

She doesn't have the authority either but the last time a Commissioner upset a Tory politician (Boris, in that case), he got his jotters.

The Mirror is now reporting that the Home Office has 'given' £3,500,000 to the Met to finance the investigation. It should just about cover the cost of translating the documents, airfares and hotel costs.

Still, a few cops get a Suntan, Murdoch sells a few papers, Cameron stays in News International's good books and the McCanns get to stay in the limelight.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" .............

No, the Met should not investigate/re_iew the evidence.

There's a bit of a problem with that.

The mother wrote an open letter to the Sun (which made the Sun a lot of money in increased circulation).

Murdoch leant on Cameron and told him he wants the Metropolitan Police to investigate.

Cameron knows he doesn't have the authority to do that so he leant on Theresa May.

She doesn't have the authority either but the last time a Commissioner upset a Tory politician (Boris, in that case), he got his jotters.

Still, a few cops get a Suntan, Murdoch sells a few papers, Cameron stays in News International's good books and the McCanns get to stay in the limelight.

And not one single mention of a missing little British girl who was ripped away from her family in the dead of night in a foreign land and taken to god know's what kind of life - or death.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" ....................

And not one single mention of a missing little British girl who was ripped away from her family in the dead of night in a foreign land and taken to god know's what kind of life - or death.

Is't the reality that, far from the child having been "ripped away from her family in the dead of night", the family (or at least the parents) had, in fact, gone out on the piss and left her to what turned out to be her fate

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" ....................

And not one single mention of a missing little British girl who was ripped away from her family in the dead of night in a foreign land and taken to god know's what kind of life - or death.

The reality being, in fact, that they had left their three children asleep in bed and meandered over to a restaurant 50 yards from their apartment which was within _iew of where they were sitting with 9 friends for a meal.

Of of the parents had returned on the hour every hour to check on them and then returned to the restuarant.

Hardly going on the piss, is it, but I concede that is so very easy to sit in an ivory tower tossing stones at lesser mortals from the relative comfort of "it'll never happen to me," because it hasn't happened to you.

As another poster has stated on this thread, thousands of families on holiday have done the exact same thing as the McCanns did that night and nothing has happened.

My opinion is that Gerry, being the last to check on them, left the apartment unsecure. He should have checked everything when they first got there and if the window shutters were faulty he/she/they should never have left those kids alone. Even for a meal 50 yards away.

How many mother's have smothered their own babies by rolling over onto them?

How many toddlers have drowned in 6" of water in a garden paddling pool due to a momentary lapse in attention from supervising adults?

How man children have been run over by an ice cream van because they weren't supervised every second of every minute of every hour of every day.

The list of potential hazards is endless and we can't wrap them up in cotton wool all their lives, but what we can do is minimise the risk and in Gerry & Kate McCanns mind - they had. They were in a resort that had an almost zero crime rate, with friends who had children there themselves (and had presumably left them asleep in their apartments too).

They simply got caught out, and Maddie paid the price for that.

I feel desperately sorry for them as I'm sure they have looked in the mirror from that day to this and saw a reflection they point an accusing finger at. Every day.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Saves me writing what I was thinking.... I know full well if it was my child I'd take all the flak for staying in the public eye.... I'd do all I could... I know my own parents would leave me and my baby sister in our hotel because one night I woke up and wandered down to the bar... I was 4 or 5 at the time... did anyone say my parents had neglected me at the hotel...? NO just went to check their children....

It's a tragic thing and I think that to not know would be worse... I think that as a parent I can see why they can't give up... I think that their background has enabled them to search better but let's face it papers will help as it see's them..

I think that this is a case that we will never know what happened... but I do not think from all I've seen that her parents are involved... and I don't think its fair to speculate otherwise... for now and unless anything else comes up.. resources should be spent on looking for her...

One thing..... I bet no parents now leave their kids on holiday... I know though that till then it was quite a common thing... as the world was not deemed that bad...

I mean 20years ago... you would happily let your kids out... now.. well its not at plain and simple.

Katie x
" ....................

And not one single mention of a missing little British girl who was ripped away from her family in the dead of night in a foreign land and taken to god know's what kind of life - or death.

Of of the parents had returned on the hour every hour to check on them and then returned to the restuarant.

As another poster has stated on this thread, thousands of families on holiday have done the exact same thing as the McCanns did that night and nothing has happened.

How many mother's have smothered their own babies by rolling over onto them?

How many toddlers have drowned in 6" of water in a garden paddling pool due to a momentary lapse in attention from supervising adults?

How man children have been run over by an ice cream van because they weren't supervised every second of every minute of every hour of every day.

They simply got caught out, and Maddie paid the price for that.

I feel desperately sorry for them as I'm sure they have looked in the mirror from that day to this and saw a reflection they point an accusing finger at. Every day."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I agree with Wishy. All this "whilst the parents went on the piss", they werent on an 18-30 in Faliraki.

Yes they left the kids alone - whilst they sat in _iew of the apartment. They checked them regularly - but, as we all know, they took a unnecessary risk by leaving the kids and they paid the highest price possible. They made a mistake, do we think they will do it again - like hell they will. If they ever take the kids on holiday again, you can be bloody sure they wont let them out of their sight.

None of us are perfect parents and its easy to sit in front of our keyboards passing judgement. Until we look towards our own parenting skills, we have no right to do so.

Any parent who has kids in bed but gets pissed in the house on a Friday night is taking an unnecessary risk - their judgement is impaired by alcohol and when they fall into bed asleep in a d*unken stupor, are they kids protected then - no they are not. None of us are alert and have the children within eye _iew all of the time.

As for the McCanns murdering their daughter, I dont know if they did, but if they did, and they evaded police investigation, they evaded the media insight, the continual begging to have the case kept in the limelight, doing everything they can to keep the investigation going - then bloody hell they are good.

Dont you think the police and social services have been over their family dynamics over and over again with a fine tooth comb. A useful tool is sticking suspected criminals in front of the media in a hope they will trip themselves up. Body language is a powerful tool. Feed them to the crazed gutter press, cos if anyone can dig dirty, they can. As in the case of Shannon Matthews. Do we really believe that the police honestly thought that child had been abducted by strangers. I expect they had a bloody good idea what had happened but they just didnt know where she was being kept.

What about Denise Bulger whose child James was abducted by two 10 year old in a busy shopping area whilst his mother wasnt paying attention, and tortured and murdered. Is she to blame, is she a bad parent - took her eyes off her kid didnt she, paid more attention in paying for her meat for the sunday dinner. Should have put him in a pushchair, or on reins. No the truth is that Denise Bulger is not a bad parent, she took a risk, thought he would stay by her side, she again, through no fault of her own, paid the highest price possible.

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By *inkershoes69Woman
over a year ago

maidstone

they left 3 kids in a unsecured appartment with a swimming pool a few metres away from them, they chose 2 go out on the piss that night was an accident waiting to happen

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"they left 3 kids in a unsecured appartment with a swimming pool a few metres away from them, they chose 2 go out on the piss that night was an accident waiting to happen

Jesus bloody Christ. Did you not read the three posts above or did you just see the OP and hit the 'let me have my uneducated point of _iew' button?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Not being a parent i can never truely know how it'd feel if i lost a child like they did; i can only imagine.

But if i had kids, i wouldnt leave them unattended in a foreign country whilst i went for a night out. The joy of having children also comes with the responsibilty, and they proved lacking that for just a moment can have some dire consequences.

I think the decision would depend on Madelaine (if she was found alive) as she's had 4 years to think about it... how would you feel if it happened to you?

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By *b430Man
over a year ago

Tayside

"they left 3 kids in a unsecured appartment with a swimming pool a few metres away from them, they chose 2 go out on the piss that night was an accident waiting to happen

Jesus bloody Christ. Did you not read the three posts above or did you just see the OP and hit the 'let me have my uneducated point of _iew' button?

Did you just read their post and hit the "no one else can have their own opinion apart from me" button?

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By *inkershoes69Woman
over a year ago

maidstone

not at all, there is no defence in this case

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By *atchMan
over a year ago

reigate

At the end of the day thet abandoned their kids, I have three and would never have left them alone at that age in a strange place to go out on the piss.

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman
over a year ago

little house on the praire

"I agree with Wishy. All this "whilst the parents went on the piss", they werent on an 18-30 in Faliraki.

None of us are perfect parents and its easy to sit in front of our keyboards passing judgement. Until we look towards our own parenting skills, we have no right to do so.

I dont think you can compare denise bulger with the mcanns. What denise bulgar did was human nature. It is absolutly not possible to have every second of your life focused 100% on your child. What she did was take her eyes of her child for a second.

What the mcanns did was they arranged to leave their three chidren on their own to go off drinking with there friends.

I agree with the drinking in the house with children of your post. But if people had to keep there eye on their children all the while we would end up not being able to go to sleep at night. We have all made mistakes as parents and maybe something tragic could of happened. But taking your eyes of your child for a second and leaving them to me are two different things

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By *iewMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Angus & Findhorn

So hope she is found and returned to her mum,dad and the twins.

I am not a parent so can't really comment on that, she should not have been left alone..

But god knows the guilt they must feel... Every day for the rest of their lives.....

I so dislike comments made about their profession, they are saving others lives everyday.. They could save my loved ones.. And god forbid me ever facing the choice..

Loved ones need a doctor urgently.. And the only ones available are the murdering McCanns, I know what I would choose...

Please save my loved ones dr McCann

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I wonder what the statistics are of leaving your child alone and that be the apartment that the child snatcher choses? I might be wrong on this but wasn't that teh first time on their holiday that the children were left alone?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We're getting back into the realms of imagination - much the same as befell the other thread.

People are contributing "I think this happened........ " and "I think that happened .............." - speculation at best and none of it of any relevance.

The few facts we have show, by the parents' own admission, that they went out and left their children unattended and no amount of 'they were only yards away' or 'they checked up on the kids regularly' or 'they hadn't done it before' make the slightest difference.

They made a serious error of judgement which might well have cost an innocent child her life.

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By *HAGADELICCouple
over a year ago

south london

Thta's an interesting one what if she is found and she has been adopted (illegally of course) by a couple in good faith with no idea of where she comes from?

She will have no memory (probably) of her real parents she might have forgotten all her english...

In this world where "the interests of the child are paramount" ( a justification for many harsh acts by authority) someone may well make a case it is in madeline's "best interests" to stay where she is... Stranger things have happened

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By *umourCouple
over a year ago

Rushden

I really can't believe that some are seeking to defend the actions of this couple!!! WITHOUT even paying attention to the facts!

The bar is 50mtrs from the room, but you cannot see the appartment from the bar! There is a 2mtr wall and tall shrubs in the way!!! Whilst being only 50mtrs away, it is a walk of 150mtrs to get back to the room!

This is NOT an isolated action that led to tragedy, it was something they did every night! The night before, Maddie had woken up screaming and crying and the parents found her (and the twins) like that. Maddie said that something had happened and in Kates own words, Maddie asked why her parents didn't come to help them!

Even after that, the McCanns STILL went out the next night and left the kids at home... ALONE! In the same inter_iew, Kate said that she believes the kids were fed sedetives... She said the twins never moved in all the noise! I still await to be told why

• Anyone wanting to “snatch” a young child would drug the others. (waking them and giving them a sedetive???)

• Why they would have left two better prospects in the twins, who would have been safer and fetched more money on the black market

• Why we haven’t had sightings that are meaninful of a young girl with a defined eye deformity that is instantly recognisable?

Whilst I agree that we can all make mistakes, this was NOT a mistake! They systematically left these children on their own, every night to go have a meal. What if there had been a fire? What if there had been a faulty boiler/water heater?

OK, we can’t wrap kids up in cotton wool, but to liken the deliberate leaving of three young children alone in a room night after night, in a foreign land the night after the daughter was scared of “something” and woke up crying… And I think it is disengenuious to put that in the same league as parents who have had a momentary lapse of concentration! Yes thousands who have done it have got away with it, but that does not make it right!

Go take a listen to the inter_iew with Kate McCann! In my opinion it is very telling… Living in my Ivory Tower??? No, just proud of the fact that we are parents who really do put our kids first!!!

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By *umourCouple
over a year ago

Rushden

"I wonder what the statistics are of leaving your child alone and that be the apartment that the child snatcher choses? I might be wrong on this but wasn't that teh first time on their holiday that the children were left alone? "

No, see my post above and listen to Kate McCanns own words on Womans hour! It seemed to have been a nightly thing...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The Jenni Murray/ Kate McCann inter_iew is still on BBC iPlayer at http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01115hc

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By *inkershoes69Woman
over a year ago

maidstone

_umour u summed up everything xx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"they left 3 kids in a unsecured appartment with a swimming pool a few metres away from them, they chose 2 go out on the piss that night was an accident waiting to happen

Jesus bloody Christ. Did you not read the three posts above or did you just see the OP and hit the 'let me have my uneducated point of _iew' button?

Did you just read their post and hit the "no one else can have their own opinion apart from me" button?

No. I just know the difference between a night on the piss and a few drinks in a bar with a few friends.

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By *omnlynneCouple
over a year ago

milton keynes

i do not for a second think the "re_iew" is to apportion blame but rightly as you say to see if any piece of evidence was missed or incorrectly handled but the facts are as they appear to date: 1) on a nightly basis they left three children alone to join friends for dinner and drinks.

2) their profession makes no difference to me nor does their social standing im not a jealous have not and i do feel compassion for people deserving of the same ie james bulgers mother the family of millie dowler to cite but two examples i do not however have compassion for two people putting their enjoyment and social life above the children they profess to worship its a form of cruel abuse

im not a hand wringer nor a bleeding heart liberal merely a realist if they had nothing to hide their friends would have made statements to the police in portugal and instead of meeting american politicians and the pope (neither of whom have any vital information to give to the case) i would be still pounding the streets of praiz de luz searching not writing books and making myself a celebrity talking about not been able to have sex what in gods name has that to do with anything regarding maddie? sorry if this turned into a rant....and also may i say this is my honest opinion, of which everyone is entitled to have a _iew of their own not meant in any way to be confrontational and i do hope they find the child although i also regrettably believe her fate was sealed that night 4 years ago

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By *iewMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Angus & Findhorn

And would walking up and down the streets searching keep the hunt alive?

No..

Meeting high profile people keeps it front page to keep her face, name and appeal alive.

The Portugese want it over... Why

Their shit economy and impact on tourism..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" i also regrettably believe her fate was sealed that night 4 years ago

If Maddie wasn't dead shortly after being snatched I believe keeping her in the news continually would have made her too hot to keep, and that could have sealed her fate.

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By (user no longer on site)
Forum Mod
over a year ago

" i also regrettably believe her fate was sealed that night 4 years ago

If Maddie wasn't dead shortly after being snatched I believe keeping her in the news continually would have made her too hot to keep, and that could have sealed her fate."

I agree with that

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Poor Maddie, my heart breaks for her.

These kids would have been better left at home with someone else looking after them while their mum and dad went and had their grown up holiday.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"............

Did you just read their post and hit the "no one else can have their own opinion apart from me" button?

No. I just know the difference between a night on the piss and a few drinks in a bar with a few friends.

And the difference it made to their child is ...............?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"............

Did you just read their post and hit the "no one else can have their own opinion apart from me" button?

No. I just know the difference between a night on the piss and a few drinks in a bar with a few friends.

And the difference it made to their child is ...............?"

What do you care, there's no political mileage in it.

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By *lubPartyPeepsCouple
over a year ago

London

Yes she should.

But, as much as it pains me to say this, I seriously doubt anyone will ever be faced with this eventuality.....

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

"_umour u summed up everything xx

i agree, excellent post from Rumour

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

the parents of the child should be prosecuted for neglect ,

something does just not sit right in all of this

the truth will out ............

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By *b430Man
over a year ago

Tayside

"............

Did you just read their post and hit the "no one else can have their own opinion apart from me" button?

No. I just know the difference between a night on the piss and a few drinks in a bar with a few friends.

And the difference it made to their child is ...............?

What do you care, there's no political mileage in it."

I'm not into Politics so could you give an answer for me?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"............

Did you just read their post and hit the "no one else can have their own opinion apart from me" button?

No. I just know the difference between a night on the piss and a few drinks in a bar with a few friends.

And the difference it made to their child is ...............?

What do you care, there's no political mileage in it.

I'm not into Politics so could you give an answer for me?

I wouldn't hold your breath awaiting an answer

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"............

Did you just read their post and hit the "no one else can have their own opinion apart from me" button?

No. I just know the difference between a night on the piss and a few drinks in a bar with a few friends.

And the difference it made to their child is ...............?

What do you care, there's no political mileage in it.

I'm not into Politics so could you give an answer for me?

Sure, I could, but I know a certain person will be along in a sec to give it for me.

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By *b430Man
over a year ago

Tayside

[Removed by poster at 14/05/11 23:43:24]

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By *b430Man
over a year ago

Tayside

"............

Did you just read their post and hit the "no one else can have their own opinion apart from me" button?

No. I just know the difference between a night on the piss and a few drinks in a bar with a few friends.

And the difference it made to their child is ...............?

What do you care, there's no political mileage in it.

I'm not into Politics so could you give an answer for me?

Sure, I could, but I know a certain person will be along in a sec to give it for me."

Awww that's a shame, because I was hoping to read your own answer.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"............

Did you just read their post and hit the "no one else can have their own opinion apart from me" button?

No. I just know the difference between a night on the piss and a few drinks in a bar with a few friends.

And the difference it made to their child is ...............?

What do you care, there's no political mileage in it.

I'm not into Politics so could you give an answer for me?

Sure, I could, but I know a certain person will be along in a sec to give it for me.

Awww that's a shame, because I was hoping to read your own answer.

You may have a long wait.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"............

I'm not into Politics so could you give an answer for me?

Sure, I could, but I know a certain person will be along in a sec to give it for me.

Awww that's a shame, because I was hoping to read your own answer.

Ok, if you insist. I personally believe that David Cameron has played it right. He wants this case put to bed one way or another and with the McCanns increasingly pushing themselves into the spotlight it could become a thorn in his side if he's seen to do nothing about a British girl abducted abroad.

What does he do?

He can't order the Met to re_iew the case and he knows the Portuguese Police might not be as co-operative as the Met need them to be to re_iew the case with ALL the evidence available.

But..

Portugal need a Euro-bailout and we're in for £6bn worth of it. That gives us a bit of muscle, so I'd be very surprised if someone from over here hasn't been in touch with someone from over there and the Met will meet with very little resistance from Portugal.

With all that in place and the timing as good as it's going to get Cameron 'requested' a re_iew, which the McCanns will get, and hopefully this case can be brought to a successful conclusion. By successful I mean permanent closure whether that be that Madeliene is found alive or dead, but found never-the-less.

There would have been no political mileage in a re_iew last year as there was no incentive for the Portuguese police to co-operate, and that would have been a waste of British taxpayer's money to do a re_iew without the evidence held in Portugal.

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By *b430Man
over a year ago

Tayside

[Removed by poster at 14/05/11 23:56:55]

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By *b430Man
over a year ago

Tayside

"............

I'm not into Politics so could you give an answer for me?

Sure, I could, but I know a certain person will be along in a sec to give it for me.

Awww that's a shame, because I was hoping to read your own answer.

What does he do?

He can't order the Met to re_iew the case and he knows the Portuguese Police might not be as co-operative as the Met need them to be to re_iew the case with ALL the evidence available.

But..

That's not the question I was asking for an answer to - you gave a political answer and I still am not into Politics!

The question was - "And the difference it made to their child is ...............?"

* spelling mistake in last version *

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Ah, I see.

Me knowing the difference between a night on the piss and a few drinks with friends means absolutely fuck all to Madeleine McCann.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"................

That's not the question I was asking for an answer to - you gave a political answer and I still am not into Politics!

The question was - "And the difference it made to their child is ...............?"

* spelling mistake in last version *"

Ah telt ye - yer oantae plums.

For the avoidance of doubt; the answer to the question "And the difference it made to their child is ..........?"

None whatsoever.

It matters not a jot whether the parents were out on the piss or enjoying a sobrietous social evening with a few friends or attending the local swingers club or an AA meeting.

They weren't where they should have been ......... and that's inexcusable.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

ok keep your issues away from the forums.

If you keep bringing politics into every thread it just looks like you are trying to goad the other....ignore each other.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

"they left 3 kids in a unsecured appartment with a swimming pool a few metres away from them, they chose 2 go out on the piss that night was an accident waiting to happen

Jesus bloody Christ. Did you not read the three posts above or did you just see the OP and hit the 'let me have my uneducated point of _iew' button?

I read the three posts above .

I also say they were on the piss after leaving their 3 young children in an apartment on their own.

The definition of " on the piss " might be different for you, but it doesn't make people uneducated because it is.

My definition of on the piss is...people drinking, wether that is in a night club/pub or restaurent.

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By *inkershoes69Woman
over a year ago

maidstone

thanx rugby x

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By *waymanMan
over a year ago

newcastle

Here's my problem.

I don't know if the Mccann's are good parents or bad parents. I don't know if they killed Maddy or not. I don't know if they abused their other children or not.

But every time I see the way they have conducted themselves since Maddy went missing they have triggered my insincerity alarm. My gut instinct is that their 'search for Maddy' is as much self serving as it is about a genuine belief that she will come home. Now, do I trust my gut instinct, or do I assume that no-one ever engages in a fruitless and quixotic search for 'the truth' to enable them to avoid confronting their grief and their guilt?

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By *inkershoes69Woman
over a year ago

maidstone

the whole thing rings alarm bells 4 me

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By *ittlemorespiceCouple
over a year ago

North Cornwall

Sensitive situation to be handled by experts and not rushed but ultimately, yes.

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By *inkershoes69Woman
over a year ago

maidstone

i honestly dont think we will ever no, yes as parents we have all made mistakes but they had all the warning signs, james bulger was totally different, he was with his mum x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We think the parents where in on it a mean why was there blood in gerry mccanns car maybe they killed madeline and put her in the car and drove off with her

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"We think the parents where in on it a mean why was there blood in gerry mccanns car maybe they killed madeline and put her in the car and drove off with her "

Much as I dislike discussion about facts which might or might not be facts - why would it be unusual for traces of a child's blood in a car?

Nose bleeds, skint knees and cut fingers spring to mind.

I don't know if any of these things happened but I don't know they we know they didn't.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

My definition of on the piss is...people drinking, wether that is in a night club/pub or restaurent.

My definition of "on my piss" is completely different. To me on the piss signifies people going out for a length of time to bars, clubs, etc drinking solidly ie; a night out in the town centre. If I was going to a Beefeater restaurant for a steak and I had one glass of wine, I would not say that I was out that night on the piss.

There is no comparison to Denise Bulger and the McCanns. The McCanns deliberately left their children and that is wrong, ive always maintained that - there is no excuse for it, it was wrong. But I wanted to highlight that as parents all of us make bad error judgements at times, luckily for most of us they have no serious consequences. Unfortunately for a few, they do.

But what has annoyed me throughout this thread and the other one, is the judgemental nature of some peoples' posts. The constant reference to Doctors, the accusations of abuse, the stating that people are fed up with hearing it, the half cocked forensic information and the far fetched information on what child abductors are looking for and the best price that can be fetched - unless you are involved in child trafficking, how can you possibly know - from CSI?

I dont follow the case so I have no idea about what was said on Womans Hour, but if the McCanns murdered their daughter, they are bloody good at evasion. They have had their lives dissected by the authorities, noone has found any evidence to suggest they had anything to do with it. I did catch somewhere that Gerry McCann is back at work in his role as Consultant Cardiologist - do you honestly think if there was one shred of evidence to suggest he abused or murdered a child, he would be in employment and particularly in that role.

The McCanns did a mental risk assessment and weighed up the risks on information they believed - the area was thought of as being very safe for families, child abduction is rare, how many other instances have you heard of, of children being stolen from resorts on holiday - its not a weekly occurance, they were nearby and they were checking on their children every half an hour. They chanced it - most of us on here would not have chanced it, and they got it wrong.

I believe that time for recriminations is gone. Until we know the hard facts, then we can judge. The McCanns may be murderers, or the child has been abducted by an unknown source for whatever reason. What this has done though is highlight the dangers of leaving children alone, and hopefully the message will get through to the millions of people who leave their children alone in hotel rooms with only a listening service provided by the holiday company as a safeguard. We know thats not enough

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

@iconic: That pretty much sums it up for me too.

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By *iewMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Angus & Findhorn

& me.........

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"We think the parents where in on it a mean why was there blood in gerry mccanns car maybe they killed madeline and put her in the car and drove off with her

Much as I dislike discussion about facts which might or might not be facts - why would it be unusual for traces of a child's blood in a car?

Nose bleeds, skint knees and cut fingers spring to mind.

I don't know if any of these things happened but I don't know they we know they didn't."

yeah true i guess woops never thought of that but csi say it was madelines blood but we know they had other kids u know

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

My car is nearly 20 years old and has been resprayed and reupholstered but if Catherine Willows wanted to search for 15 year old DNA from my niece's nose bleed I'd happily climb into the back seat and help her

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I maybe wrong on this account as not read up on it for a good while, but i seem to remember right at the beginning of the case, they didnt report their daughter missing st8 away, was a number of hours later..........now ot me this doesnt ring true, i know myself if my child wetn missing it certainly wouldnt be hrs before authorities were alerted!! Saying that i would never have left my children alone even if i could have seen the door feet away to the apartment!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 15/05/11 15:53:03]

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By *obsrocketMan
over a year ago

Loughborough

[Removed by poster at 15/05/11 16:22:31]

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By *obsrocketMan
over a year ago

Loughborough

The Mcanns live in the next Village to myself, and whilst they did make a mistake they are mentally paying for it now. I will occasionally see Kate or Gerry just as people in the street no media about and the pain in Kates eyes is horrible to see, its the same for Gerry. I do not know either personally and Iam not a physcologist. I think it's just so tragic and we should all still hope Maddie is found alive.

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

I would have thought the BIG question was.... new car, four or five seater?

... sorry I'll get my coat.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Perhaps Kate and Gerry will put her on ebay."
Have you got children ? the parents are going through hell .

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"@iconic: That pretty much sums it up for me too. "

And me....

Katie x

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

My definition of on the piss is...people drinking, wether that is in a night club/pub or restaurent.

Exactly my point, not everyones definition will be the same, it doesn't mean people are uneducated if they differ from another.

Just to clarify though, I didn't comment on any of your points so I think you maybe mixing me with someone else.

BUT....my _iew on it all is....

Yes, no parents are perfect, we all cock up at some point.

Yes, there are some people who have left their children in caravans/apartments even at home while they go out.

There is nothing wrong with someone wanting to have a drink and it doesn't make every parent a bad one if they do.

Unless we are looking at comparisons with other children who have been taken while their parents have left them while they go out socialising, then I don't see a comparison with kids going missing while you are with them but have let them out of your sight for two minutes.

It doesn't matter if you are a road sweeper or a Doctor in all this...what does matter is your childs safety.

If you leave your three children in an apartment on their own while you go out drinking/not drinking /eating /not eating, then you can't be sure they are safe.

The simple fact remains, they took a chance like many others do on their holidays /at home and it was with horrific results. I am sure they are living with that guilt day after day.

As I said on the other thread, I can't blame them for keeping her in the news, I would be doing all I could if I was them.

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By *iewMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Angus & Findhorn

another well balanced post Rugby.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

"We think the parents where in on it a mean why was there blood in gerry mccanns car maybe they killed madeline and put her in the car and drove off with her

Much as I dislike discussion about facts which might or might not be facts - why would it be unusual for traces of a child's blood in a car?

Nose bleeds, skint knees and cut fingers spring to mind.

I don't know if any of these things happened but I don't know they we know they didn't."

because it was a hire car while they were on holiday, not a family car used day in day out

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

i was speaking to my dad about this and mentioned this thread (minus a few detail like the site lol)

i said there was a heated debate about the morality of leaving the children alone while they went out etc and whether or not they should have been investigated by social services because of it.

we went on foreign holidays every year when we were kids and not once did my parents ever leave me or my 2 sisters alone. if one of them fancied staying out late in the bar etc then the other would go and stay in the hotel room with the children.

we also discussed the _iew point of those who say 'they are suffering enough with the knowledge of what happened'. why does this mean that they should not face the consequences that any other parent who leaves their children alone should face?

with this logic anyone who commits a crime of passion i.e. snaps and kills someone shouldnt be tried for murder because they live every day with the knowledge that they killed someone. or anyone that commits any crime should not be tried as long as they are showing visible signs of living with grief everyday!

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

"We think the parents where in on it a mean why was there blood in gerry mccanns car maybe they killed madeline and put her in the car and drove off with her

Much as I dislike discussion about facts which might or might not be facts - why would it be unusual for traces of a child's blood in a car?

Nose bleeds, skint knees and cut fingers spring to mind.

I don't know if any of these things happened but I don't know they we know they didn't.

because it was a hire car while they were on holiday, not a family car used day in day out"

I think it was also a car that was hired after Maddie went missing, so makes it more confusing.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"We think the parents where in on it a mean why was there blood in gerry mccanns car maybe they killed madeline and put her in the car and drove off with her

Much as I dislike discussion about facts which might or might not be facts - why would it be unusual for traces of a child's blood in a car?

Nose bleeds, skint knees and cut fingers spring to mind.

I don't know if any of these things happened but I don't know they we know they didn't.

because it was a hire car while they were on holiday, not a family car used day in day out"

I don't see that that makes any difference.

If the (now) missing child had been in that car at any time in innocent circumstances it would be perfectly possible for a DNA sample (blood, pee, poo, hair, whatever) to have been left there.

It doesn't really matter whether the parents owned or hired the car, in the UK or overseas, on holiday or just hired for one day whilst their own car was in for service.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"We think the parents where in on it a mean why was there blood in gerry mccanns car maybe they killed madeline and put her in the car and drove off with her

Much as I dislike discussion about facts which might or might not be facts - why would it be unusual for traces of a child's blood in a car?

Nose bleeds, skint knees and cut fingers spring to mind.

I don't know if any of these things happened but I don't know they we know they didn't.

because it was a hire car while they were on holiday, not a family car used day in day out

I think it was also a car that was hired after Maddie went missing, so makes it more confusing."

That puts a different complexion on the matter but, as I said in a previous post, there are so many 'facts' about this case that may, or may not, turn out to be facts after all.

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Madelaine McCann - the BIG question.