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Torture boys get a minimum of 5 years !

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By *afthalf OP   Man
over a year ago

Near you x

Im shocked once again at the legal system of this country.

Have followed thisstory since it first broke and honestly believed after the Jamie Bulger case that these 2 would have been held " at her Majestys pleasure ", in other words, till the queen says they should be let out.

What do they get ??..5 years...5 YEARS !!...

I really do feel so sorry for the victims and there familys and hope to god that they can some how get over this and make their lives something so much better !

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Mmmm call me cynical but until the punishment fits the crime it will continue to be like this

The problem is crime is a big part of the economy

And if we had proper sentences and deterrents there would not be so many jobs in the crime industry

Its a sad fact of modern life

Like i said call me cynical xx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

these kids are evil.

nothing more, nothing less.

and had their arms not tired, they would be murderers like Jamie Bulger's killers.

now someone will blame the council, social workers, the police, teachers and the lollypop lady standing outside the school they go to...

but...

It is the parents and those little monsters to blame.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Have a heart!

They are children afterall.

How would you feel if you were locked up at that age and be told you'll never get out and enjoy freedom again???

Their parents failed them. The society failed them. We the tax payers failed them!

Why didn't the Social Services do something about them? Instead of allowing them to rot with their abusive parents???!!!

Why didn't their neighbours/relatives etc. do something about them? To rescue them from such hellish upbringing???!!!

I sincerely hope they can have a fresh start in life without any prejudice, and put the unfornate events leading to their downfall behind them.

They are young, and they can still have a good future, if they are allowed to do so.

And before anyone jumps up and down and asks about what about the victums?

I feel sorry for them for being the victums. However, I do not buy the "an eye for an eye" mentality, sorry!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

the law has it stands is stacked against the victim .these animals will be let out in 5 yrs time with new id,new home and cash on tap from the state.this is not fantasy this is how we deal with high profile crimalals in the uk.crime here pays .the victims will get nothing.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

you make great points pearl.

I do have a heart and on this occasion it goes out to both young boys abused and especially to the young boy who said to his friend ' you go on and leave me here to die '.

xx

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By *leasureDomeMan
over a year ago

all over the place

The legal system has actually played a canny hand here ,the sentence was actually indeterminate-with a minimum of 5years-however the experts all say there is little chance of them getting out after that period such is the level of mental derangement particularly from the younger one,the lawyers did a back room deal to drop the attempted murder charge so the sexual angle of the attack could be emphasised.

When a kid is born he or she is a blank sheet and they become what the parents make them ,these kids had a horrendous

start,witnessing brutality from there parents,constant exposure to pornography involving bdsm and a environment described by psychiatrists as toxic (some of the stuff they were exposed to had to be hidden from public)

So it came to the crime ,horrendous but the police were powerless as they were under 10 and as soon as they hit 10 acted.The real failing was once again from Doncaster,for placing them in the same town in foster care as there father.

Its time parents were prosecuted for not caring for there kids properly in an environment where they clearly dont care about what happens to them .

I can only hope the poor victims of this inevitable crime can and are supported till they are mature enough to deal with what happened.

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By (user no longer on site)
Forum Mod
over a year ago


"you make great points pearl.

I do have a heart and on this occasion it goes out to both young boys abused and especially to the young boy who said to his friend ' you go on and leave me here to die '.

xx"

That one sentence from that little boy made my heart break

I agree they were let down

They had a hellish upbringing probably worse then any of us can imagine

That does'nt make any of it right though,they must have had some good influences in their lives too

Im sure they went to school and understood the differences between right and wrong?

I think the parents should be punished too,I was talking to hubby about this and the whole case turned our stomachs,he said what most of us probably feel with children that he would hunt down anyone that did anything like that to our children and he would hunt the parents down too

Whether that is right or wrong that is how you feel as a parent and you just can't help feeling that way

As these boys spend the next few years incarcerated I just hope that some good is done for them so that when they come out they will be decent human beings

For the 2 that were attacked I hope that with love and support they can both get past the horror of what happened and both lead happy contented lives

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

i agree that the parents of kids like these or those that cauce havok on estates should be prosecuted but it will never happen as governments aint interested in the real world the only thing they want is ya cash .as for the animals getting out when 5 yrs are up you can bet ya life they will get out just like the bulger killers.the experts say there is little chance of them getting out but the experts dont run the country

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By *ickmealloverWoman
over a year ago

a very plush appartment off junt 7 M5

The parents were lacking yes

BUT

The children still know right from wrong

what causes pain and what doesn't

The parents failed them but even so they know what they did was hurtful and not the nicest thing to do

They made a choice to inflict pain and in my book are as guilty as any adult

They deserve what they get and so much more

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

My knee jerk reaction was “5 years! Is that it!”… but then it is a smart call really.

Because of their age they are yet to go through some very significant changes in their development and more specifically their brain… the stage many refer to as ‘Kevin Syndrome’ … then beginning of the transformation to adulthood is some way off for both of them.

Many of us did things as children we would not dream of doing now… obviously I would hope not to this degree.

The children who committed this awful act, no matter how abhorrent it is, cannot be held totally responsible for their social conditioning at the age they are… considering what they have seen as ‘acceptable’ in their life so far.

A minimum of 5 years and the possibility of “indefinite” will allow assessment at some key stages and see if they are truly conditioned beyond repair, away from the influences they’ve had so far.

If you show your dog it’s OK to destroy the furniture in your home… don’t be surprised when it rips the stuffing out of someone else’s sofa.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

A custodial sentance does several things, it is punishment, it is a supposed deterrent, it protects society from danger and is also meant to offer some rehabilitation.

In this case the offenders may be just victims of their upbringing, but probably not just that, (although it undoubtably had an impact), they may be genuine clinical psychopaths, or more likely a combination of both.

A genuine psychopath has a personality disorder which has an almost complete lack of empathy,conscience,inhibition and as such feels no guilt or remorse as they feel they have done nothing wrong.

There is neither a cure nor any effective treatment for psychopathy; there are no medications or other techniques which can instill empathy, and psychopaths who undergo traditional talk therapy only become more adept at manipulating others.The consensus among researchers is that psychopathy stems from a specific neurological disorder which is biological in origin and present from birth.It is estimated that one percent of the general population are psychopaths.

IF this is the case then the custodial sentance ONLY provides protection to society and as such can be deemed to be as long as the protection is still required.

The true psychopath wont understand the punishment aspect as they think they have done nothing wrong, they wont regard it as a deterrent again as they think they did nothing wrong in the first place, and so far it has proved impossible to genuinely rehabilitate an extreme psychopath other than medication to a degree of vegetative immobility.

So if these offenders ARE true psychopaths we should never expect them to be freed from a secure location, the cost to the taxpayer, multiple millions.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

When I was about 9yo, I took a gold fish out of the bowl, and covered it in Sodium Bicarb to see if I could make salted fish out of it.

I did not know I was doing wrong, I was imitating what I saw the adult folks were doing - covering fish with salt.

Do they really know what is right or wrong? Or just imitating what they saw on films and adult folks did?

I do not believe they were born evil, and their upbringing had a lot to do with it.

I do hope they will emerge as better persons, and be able to have a fresh start without prejudice.

And I hope the victums can find it in their hearts to forgive them eventually, and can recover from their ordeals and move on.

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

There are what are considered “classic indicators” - the repeated behaviour as a child linked to people who go on to be diagnosed as psychopaths/sociopaths in adulthood. However, whilst the vast majority of psycho’s displayed them as a child, it’s not conclusive as others who are perfectly normal in later life can display some of them and then grow out of it.

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By *ickmealloverWoman
over a year ago

a very plush appartment off junt 7 M5

thing is

lots of children have a bad upbringing

Lots of children are brought up around violence

Lots of children are abused

Lots of children go without bare essentials such as love, warmth, food, shelter

They dont all CHOOSE to be violnet and its a cop out to say just because they had it tought thats its an excuse for their bad behavior

Cos guess what

There is no excuse, no validation no matter what

They are scum

I hope the victims never forgive them and hound them till their dying day

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"thing is

lots of children have a bad upbringing

Lots of children are brought up around violence

Lots of children are abused

Lots of children go without bare essentials such as love, warmth, food, shelter

They dont all CHOOSE to be violnet and its a cop out to say just because they had it tought thats its an excuse for their bad behavior

Cos guess what

There is no excuse, no validation no matter what

They are scum

I hope the victims never forgive them and hound them till their dying day

"

excellent post and i totaly agree.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Just an idle thought,

Approx 1-3% of the population are psychopaths/sociopaths,

Approx 2,000 Fab members are online now.

Statistics suggest approx 20 to 60 of those could be psychopaths/sociopaths

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Just an idle thought,

Approx 1-3% of the population are psychopaths/sociopaths,

Approx 2,000 Fab members are online now.

Statistics suggest approx 20 to 60 of those could be psychopaths/sociopaths

"

are there any mp,s on here

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Just an idle thought,

Approx 1-3% of the population are psychopaths/sociopaths,

Approx 2,000 Fab members are online now.

Statistics suggest approx 20 to 60 of those could be psychopaths/sociopaths

are there any mp,s on here "

Dunno??? have you seen anyone claim the £5.00 per month gold membership as " EXPENSES" ????

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I thought it was minimum of 5 years as they are what 11/12? They could be detained longer or so i thought?

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By *imfromGlasgowMan
over a year ago

er...guess

The judge said

"But I hope that they (the victims' families) will appreciate that five years is the very least which A and B (the two convicted boys) will serve.

“They may well be in detention for much longer than that and it will ultimately depend on when the authorities conclude that they no longer represent a risk to the public."

It looks as if they could spend the rest of their lives in custody.

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham

It's worth bearing in mind Doncaster Children's services missed / ignored 31, yes 31 chances to intervene in this case over many years, it 's also worth noting this same outfit are accountable for the loss of 7, yes 7 children's lives since 2004, all who were on the “At Risk” register, words fail me for the contempt I have towards those accountable

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why do people keeping blaming the world and his wife for what is the fault of the parents.

Parents who dont obviously care, who are not bothered that their offspring run amok.

And expect others to put the problem right.

Like the social services.and schools.

The caseloads of social workers grow each day. Not just with young thugs but with the older generation who require help and in my mind have more rights to it than parents who dont or wont work and expect the country to do what they fail to do.

The country didnt fail them.

Their so called parents did.

And the victims pay the price.AS always

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No words can dscribe our feelings over this. Sadley those who govern will never learn and something like this will happen again. Very sad.

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By *ickmealloverWoman
over a year ago

a very plush appartment off junt 7 M5

its nowt to do with government

these boys knew deep down what they were doing was wrong

I do hope they get picked on in where they are

A bully will always meet a bigger bully enentually

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As per...

when they do their minimal sentance.

THEY will be given new identities and new homes.

In effect...they will be rewarded for what they have done.

And if i was a parent of one of the victims, no way could i forgive.

My own son was attacked when 17 with an iron bar. He had to pretend to be dead in order to survive.

Forgiveness is not nor ever will be an option.

IF i came in contact with who ever did it....i would kill them.SIMPLES.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo


"Why do people keeping blaming the world and his wife for what is the fault of the parents.

Parents who dont obviously care, who are not bothered that their offspring run amok.

And expect others to put the problem right.

Like the social services.and schools.

The caseloads of social workers grow each day. Not just with young thugs but with the older generation who require help and in my mind have more rights to it than parents who dont or wont work and expect the country to do what they fail to do.

The country didnt fail them.

Their so called parents did.

And the victims pay the price.AS always "

What she said ^^^^

Plus, for me, teaching a child right from wrong is a requirement from the parents.

If a child is taught this and still acts like these nasty pieces of work did, then in my mind they are evil.

I can never get my head around the fact that someone would want to inflict so much pain onto someone, it just beggars belief for me.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why not put the parents into jail too. for the full life sentance.

They are as guilty in my eyes.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Im shocked once again at the legal system of this country.

Have followed thisstory since it first broke and honestly believed after the Jamie Bulger case that these 2 would have been held " at her Majestys pleasure ", in other words, till the queen says they should be let out.

What do they get ??..5 years...5 YEARS !!...

I really do feel so sorry for the victims and there familys and hope to god that they can some how get over this and make their lives something so much better !"

And the women who let her brain dead son pass away by turning of his life support after being told he would never recover and would spend the rest of his life in hospital having a machine breath for him got life....go figure

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"its nowt to do with government

these boys knew deep down what they were doing was wrong

I do hope they get picked on in where they are

A bully will always meet a bigger bully enentually"

Local authorities have admitted this was preventable. These tossers, authorities, are not doing their jobs. It`s the same excuses every time.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why not put the parents into jail too. for the full life sentance.

They are as guilty in my eyes. "

You are soooo right there.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

should throw away the key n rot in hell

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By *adchickCouple
over a year ago

Cyprus

The police are looking to prosecute the parents. Apparently, they are taking advice as to what they can do to ensure a conviction.

Well..... that's what Sky News are reporting at this moment.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"its nowt to do with government

these boys knew deep down what they were doing was wrong

I do hope they get picked on in where they are

A bully will always meet a bigger bully enentually

Local authorities have admitted this was preventable. These tossers, authorities, are not doing their jobs. It`s the same excuses every time."

But why should the blame be put on the authorities ?

The schools, the social services, the neighbours etc. ?????

I was a right little cow growing up, gave my mother grey hair etc. but i wasnt violent or a vandal.

I came in late and answered back.

It didnt warrant getting someone else in to take the blame. I got a clout round the earhole from me mom and god help me if i did it again.

Why the hell is it everyone elses problem but the parents ?

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By (user no longer on site)
Forum Mod
over a year ago


"The police are looking to prosecute the parents. Apparently, they are taking advice as to what they can do to ensure a conviction.

Well..... that's what Sky News are reporting at this moment."

So they should,they deserve it too

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By *r cassie4Couple
over a year ago

highlands

fuckin hang the we bastards sorry for my talk but we need to start punishing people

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think it is quite possible that some people can be 'born evil' I have no evidence to prove this theory, but I believe it is possible.

I know of 1 person in particular who grew up with his 2 brothers in a family where both the parents worked and the family had a very good standard of living, holidays, nice clothes, well looked after etc etc etc. They wern't spoiled but they were brought up the right way, to have respect, manners and to know right from wrong - the whole 9 yards.

2 of the lads gew up to be model citizens, but the brother, the 1 to which I refer, grew up to be a proper little shit, into drugs, all manner of petty crime, pinching cars, burglary the lot ... he ended up in and out of jail - much to the dispair of his parents.

Now we can have all the fancy talk in the world, all the reasons and excuses under the sun why these 2 behaved the way they did, but at the end of the day they were and still are and probably always will be a couple of little bastards.

It's high time we started to just accept the fact that some people are born to be bad, quit listening to the talk by the well paid 'experts', bang them up and chuck away the key.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"fuckin hang the we bastards sorry for my talk but we need to start punishing people"

bit strong for a 10 and 11 year old

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Have a heart!

They are children afterall.

How would you feel if you were locked up at that age and be told you'll never get out and enjoy freedom again???

Their parents failed them. The society failed them. We the tax payers failed them!

Why didn't the Social Services do something about them? Instead of allowing them to rot with their abusive parents???!!!

Why didn't their neighbours/relatives etc. do something about them? To rescue them from such hellish upbringing???!!!

I sincerely hope they can have a fresh start in life without any prejudice, and put the unfornate events leading to their downfall behind them.

They are young, and they can still have a good future, if they are allowed to do so.

And before anyone jumps up and down and asks about what about the victums?

I feel sorry for them for being the victums. However, I do not buy the "an eye for an eye" mentality, sorry! "
i suspect jamie bulgers mum disagrees with you pearl

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I think it is quite possible that some people can be 'born evil' I have no evidence to prove this theory, but I believe it is possible.

I know of 1 person in particular who grew up with his 2 brothers in a family where both the parents worked and the family had a very good standard of living, holidays, nice clothes, well looked after etc etc etc. They wern't spoiled but they were brought up the right way, to have respect, manners and to know right from wrong - the whole 9 yards.

2 of the lads gew up to be model citizens, but the brother, the 1 to which I refer, grew up to be a proper little shit, into drugs, all manner of petty crime, pinching cars, burglary the lot ... he ended up in and out of jail - much to the dispair of his parents.

Now we can have all the fancy talk in the world, all the reasons and excuses under the sun why these 2 behaved the way they did, but at the end of the day they were and still are and probably always will be a couple of little bastards.

It's high time we started to just accept the fact that some people are born to be bad, quit listening to the talk by the well paid 'experts', bang them up and chuck away the key.

"

ahh the nature v nurture debate lol

I think evil comes from within, 99.9% of serial kiilers come from good homes and had normal upbringing, theres no evidance at all to saw children who was sexually abused will grow up to sexually abuse, no evidance to show that children who are beaten by their parents will beat the own kids, inface children who have such up bringing are more inclined to self harm than harm others

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Have a heart!

They are children afterall.

How would you feel if you were locked up at that age and be told you'll never get out and enjoy freedom again???

Their parents failed them. The society failed them. We the tax payers failed them!

Why didn't the Social Services do something about them? Instead of allowing them to rot with their abusive parents???!!!

Why didn't their neighbours/relatives etc. do something about them? To rescue them from such hellish upbringing???!!!

I sincerely hope they can have a fresh start in life without any prejudice, and put the unfornate events leading to their downfall behind them.

They are young, and they can still have a good future, if they are allowed to do so.

And before anyone jumps up and down and asks about what about the victums?

I feel sorry for them for being the victums. However, I do not buy the "an eye for an eye" mentality, sorry!

i suspect jamie bulgers mum disagrees with you pearl "

its a very hard one, how long do you punish someone for for what they did when they was 10?!

If it was my child i have to admit i would want them dead, but as its not my child so i suppose i can look at it as an outsider, to me its not prison they need its help and if they get the help they need while they are locked up and turn into 'normal' adults whats the point in keeping them locked up? because of their age its a very difficult one

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"fuckin hang the we bastards sorry for my talk but we need to start punishing people

bit strong for a 10 and 11 year old "
what about the 2 kids they tortured

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham


"But why should the blame be put on the authorities ?"

And why not?

That bunch of no hoper's had 31 chances, 31 opportunities to prevent this offence from taking place, if the parents are not up to the requirements / responsibility of being parents, then those empowered to "Have children's interests at heart" need to be held accountable.

Being known as “parents” doesn't always justify the title

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By *r cassie4Couple
over a year ago

highlands


"fuckin hang the we bastards sorry for my talk but we need to start punishing people

bit strong for a 10 and 11 year old "
why let them cost us millions over five years so they can come out and murder or rape no lets get hard on scum and treat them like it yhey boys will have to live with it all there lifes they 2 scum get five years were the justice in that

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"But why should the blame be put on the authorities ?

And why not?

That bunch of no hoper's had 31 chances, 31 opportunities to prevent this offence from taking place, if the parents are not up to the requirements / responsibility of being parents, then those empowered to "Have children's interests at heart" need to be held accountable.

Being known as “parents” doesn't always justify the title "

My point exactly, well said. Lock the parents up too.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

hmmmmmmm..now until the culprits have undergone in depth psychological analysis, i am not really going to get too involved in this one. yes, i think its despicable behaviour, and my heart goes out to the victim who really could of been anyone. which lends credence to my point.....sometimes people(murders, abusive persona's, schizophrenics, alcoholics, smokers, recreational drug users etc) operate outside accepted normality. i agree that when such people over step the mark then they should be segregated from society for an acceptable amount of time for their behaviour to be analysed and hopefully rectified....

yet again another sad issue, but the problems lie much deeper than you think sometimes. its unacceptable behaviour, but behaviour that needs to be analysed in depth. yes there could be fault lying at the feet of the parents, but also an uncontrollable mental issue that is not noticed also.....

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By *imfromGlasgowMan
over a year ago

er...guess

[Removed by poster at 23/01/10 18:01:02]

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By *oyston VaseyMan
over a year ago

Sheffield- Pothole City


"Have a heart!

They are children afterall.

How would you feel if you were locked up at that age and be told you'll never get out and enjoy freedom again???

Their parents failed them. The society failed them. We the tax payers failed them!

Why didn't the Social Services do something about them? Instead of allowing them to rot with their abusive parents???!!!

Why didn't their neighbours/relatives etc. do something about them? To rescue them from such hellish upbringing???!!!

I sincerely hope they can have a fresh start in life without any prejudice, and put the unfornate events leading to their downfall behind them.

They are young, and they can still have a good future, if they are allowed to do so.

And before anyone jumps up and down and asks about what about the victums?

I feel sorry for them for being the victums. However, I do not buy the "an eye for an eye" mentality, sorry! "

Im sorry , i couldn`t disagree more .

the justice system in this country is a joke . 5 years is a joke . it should have been life without parole.

these two thugs are evil ,and are only going to grow up into more dangerous thugs upon release from their cosy 5 years inside with their playstations.

the problem in this country is the liberal wishy washy lefties are totally against anyone being given a harsh punishment.

These two should be kept in a young offenders home till they are eighteen ,then transfered to an adult prison for the rest of their lives .

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By *oyston VaseyMan
over a year ago

Sheffield- Pothole City


"the law has it stands is stacked against the victim .these animals will be let out in 5 yrs time with new id,new home and cash on tap from the state.this is not fantasy this is how we deal with high profile crimalals in the uk.crime here pays .the victims will get nothing."

Excellent post ,and i agree with every word

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"hmmmmmmm..now until the culprits have undergone in depth psychological analysis, i am not really going to get too involved in this one. yes, i think its despicable behaviour, and my heart goes out to the victim who really could of been anyone. which lends credence to my point.....sometimes people(murders, abusive persona's, schizophrenics, alcoholics, smokers, recreational drug users etc) operate outside accepted normality. i agree that when such people over step the mark then they should be segregated from society for an acceptable amount of time for their behaviour to be analysed and hopefully rectified....

yet again another sad issue, but the problems lie much deeper than you think sometimes. its unacceptable behaviour, but behaviour that needs to be analysed in depth. yes there could be fault lying at the feet of the parents, but also an uncontrollable mental issue that is not noticed also.....

"

Since when have smokers been been outside accepted normality and how do you equate a smoker to a murderer, schizophrenic etc?

Sentencing in this country is a joke and will be while the law remains too afraid to upset any particular group but first and foremost the dreaded Human Rights brigade

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham


"the justice system in this country is a joke . 5 years is a joke . "

We the people are a joke, not the system, if the public really cared about “Justice” Mps surgeries would be bursting at the seems re constituents queuing up demanding a tougher stance.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"the law has it stands is stacked against the victim .these animals will be let out in 5 yrs time with new id,new home and cash on tap from the state.this is not fantasy this is how we deal with high profile crimalals in the uk.crime here pays .the victims will get nothing."

Too bloody right it is ..

I had my van stolen about 3 years ago. I got the van back with damage that I had to pay for, tools that had been pinched which I had to replace, all in all it cost me over a grand, not to mention the time I wasn't able to work while I got the van fixed up and replaced my gear.

The little bastard who was caught - what did he get ?

A Communnity Rehabilitation Order.! I wasn't even allowed to attend the hearing in case I found out the culprits name - because the little darling was under the age of 18 !

I don't rate my experience anywhere close to that of those poor kids who suffered at the hands of these little fuckers, but it does go to prove that the victim is the last person who receives any consideration under our current judicial system

It's a fucking joke it really is

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

i counselled a client few years ago who had a personality disorder brought about by his attempt to give up smoking....

he had major psychological problems from a result. as crazy as it sounds, it actually happens to millions worldwide. same goes for drugs etc.......sorry bit its something i do for a living, and to be honest this post will attract more people who post in anger about the sentence, but with little knowledge about the underlying facts of the enforcers behaviour. was it just on a whim or something more complex. if you have the answers then your to make a wonderful career!!!!!!!!!!!!

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo


"its nowt to do with government

these boys knew deep down what they were doing was wrong

I do hope they get picked on in where they are

A bully will always meet a bigger bully enentually

Local authorities have admitted this was preventable. These tossers, authorities, are not doing their jobs. It`s the same excuses every time."

Ultimatey it is the parents responsibilty to bring up their children , not the authorities.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"i counselled a client few years ago who had a personality disorder brought about by his attempt to give up smoking....

he had major psychological problems from a result. as crazy as it sounds, it actually happens to millions worldwide. same goes for drugs etc.......sorry bit its something i do for a living, and to be honest this post will attract more people who post in anger about the sentence, but with little knowledge about the underlying facts of the enforcers behaviour. was it just on a whim or something more complex. if you have the answers then your to make a wonderful career!!!!!!!!!!!!"

see thats the whole problem though, a lot of these psychological problems are invented to shift blame to someone or something else, with your experience you should be aware of the blame culture that exists so potently today

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

im sorry, i dont know if this makes me a bad person or not, and im not agreeing with what they have done in the slightest but deep down inside i cant help but think...but these are just children, and in a way i almost feel sorry for children like this, i mean what kind of a life must they have for them to feel its ok to do such things? how lonely and empty must their lifes and thoughts be? is it just me or does anyone else feel that people who are driven to such things must have some kind of mental instability? and if so do they not need help not hate?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

i really dont know where i stand with this one side of me says lock them away until they die to prevent this ever happening again the other side says that these kids were failed from the beginning and that i blame the parents ultimately. i am a mother and i think if my child ever done that to another i would personally drown them. there is too much reliance in this country on social services no one wants to take the blame for what their offspring turn out like and will blame everythin from tv to poverty to not havin a playstation. you have children you have the responsibility to raise them properly the jeremy kyle generation scares me but so do human rights. these children should have been removed to a foster family at the other end of the country at a young age before the rot set in. my heart goes out to the victims and if i had been their parents i think i would have ended up doin time for either assualt on them or their parents x

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By *exeteraWoman
over a year ago

Bridgend

This is also going to be a highly emotive subject. Children unlike cars, microwaves etc do not come with a manual and are from birth basically empty vessels waiting to be filled. I personally don't know enough of the background to the case to make an informed decision other than what has been reported in the press. I agree that there are radical changes that need to be made to our judicial system but prison is about rehabilitating as well as punishment for the crime/crimes committed. I wouldn't like to see us go back to the death sentence as I believe there is way too much corruption to 100% know whether the person being sentenced to death is actually guilty. My heart goes out to the victims, all of them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think as a mother myself my animosity goes to the parents of said children.

AND yes, wonder how the hell they could turn out like this. ?

I cant like some blame everyone else for said problems.

Social care and health (social services) will soon be in the hands of the private sector.Each week their case loads increase and each week the need to save money becomes more urgent.

We not only deal with young offenders, parents etc.

But with the increasing older population who desperately need assistance in order to be safe and secure where ever they live. often from the likes of said young thugs.

This older generation have worked hard, saved and often been in battle themselves.

They still battle. cold weather, bad neighbourhoods, unfeeling relatives. Bad carers. and illness and poverty.

Where do you spend your resources ?

With those who ask for nothing but need the most or those who expect the state and everyone else to put right their problems .Who sit back and take take take. from benefits to whatever else is on offer ????

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We lost the right to have the death sentence re introduced in this country.

it wont ever come back.

pity !!!

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By *adchickCouple
over a year ago

Cyprus


"its nowt to do with government

these boys knew deep down what they were doing was wrong

I do hope they get picked on in where they are

A bully will always meet a bigger bully enentually

Local authorities have admitted this was preventable. These tossers, authorities, are not doing their jobs. It`s the same excuses every time.

Ultimatey it is the parents responsibilty to bring up their children , not the authorities."

I absolutely agree.

Authorities are not responsible for bringing up children, nor are schools, nor are neighbours........... the parents are.

Its the same as all the parents moaning about the schools being shut due to the weather............ Schools are not unpaid babysitters, they are there to teach children facts, figures and english etc........ not to teach them right from wrong or to teach them that bullying is bad. They are there to get them through exams and to give them an EDUCATION...not to teach them morality and to babysit whilst the parents go to work.

That is a parents responsibility.

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester


"im sorry, i dont know if this makes me a bad person or not, and im not agreeing with what they have done in the slightest but deep down inside i cant help but think...but these are just children, and in a way i almost feel sorry for children like this, i mean what kind of a life must they have for them to feel its ok to do such things? how lonely and empty must their lifes and thoughts be? is it just me or does anyone else feel that people who are driven to such things must have some kind of mental instability? and if so do they not need help not hate?"

You are not a bad person... far from it.

The acts they have committed are hideous, that is unquestionable.

The fact remains they are just children.

If the news story was the parents leaving them and going on holiday for a week the uproar would be about children not being old enough to be responsible.... yet now many want to judge them as responsible adults… we can’t have it both ways.

They are far from adulthood. There are very real changes they are yet to go through in terms of how they think, feel guilt, way up risk. How they think right now is as a child... and the blueprint for how they think has largely been drawn by the greatest influencing factor on their life so far... their home (assuming they are not sociopaths).

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"its nowt to do with government

these boys knew deep down what they were doing was wrong

I do hope they get picked on in where they are

A bully will always meet a bigger bully enentually

Local authorities have admitted this was preventable. These tossers, authorities, are not doing their jobs. It`s the same excuses every time.

Ultimatey it is the parents responsibilty to bring up their children , not the authorities.

I absolutely agree.

Authorities are not responsible for bringing up children, nor are schools, nor are neighbours........... the parents are.

Its the same as all the parents moaning about the schools being shut due to the weather............ Schools are not unpaid babysitters, they are there to teach children facts, figures and english etc........ not to teach them right from wrong or to teach them that bullying is bad. They are there to get them through exams and to give them an EDUCATION...not to teach them morality and to babysit whilst the parents go to work.

That is a parents responsibility.

It is the responsibility of the parents, you`re right with that. But when the parents are like this who then should be looking after the childrens wellfare? The local authorities. They knew there was a risk and done bugger all about it.

"

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham


"Ultimatey it is the parents responsibilty to bring up their children , not the authorities."

Of course it's the parents responsibility, but when those fortunate to have the title of parents fail, that's the time those empowered to act should act, the said agencies are there as a safety net for the child, they failed, not only did they fail these 2 offenders, they failed the victim, not only did they fail the victim, they failed they victims family, shame on them.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

[Removed by poster at 23/01/10 21:16:00]

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By *exeteraWoman
over a year ago

Bridgend


"its nowt to do with government

these boys knew deep down what they were doing was wrong

I do hope they get picked on in where they are

A bully will always meet a bigger bully enentually

Local authorities have admitted this was preventable. These tossers, authorities, are not doing their jobs. It`s the same excuses every time.

Ultimatey it is the parents responsibilty to bring up their children , not the authorities.

I absolutely agree.

Authorities are not responsible for bringing up children, nor are schools, nor are neighbours........... the parents are.

Its the same as all the parents moaning about the schools being shut due to the weather............ Schools are not unpaid babysitters, they are there to teach children facts, figures and english etc........ not to teach them right from wrong or to teach them that bullying is bad. They are there to get them through exams and to give them an EDUCATION...not to teach them morality and to babysit whilst the parents go to work.

That is a parents responsibility.

"

I disagree slightly here, I believe that it is the parents and the community that raises a child. When I was a child the local bobby would give us a clip around the ear if we did anything wrong and would be at my house speaking to my parents before I arrived home. We looked out for each other, those were innocent times when I was given the opportunity to have my childhood. The most violent viewing on TV being Tom n Jerry and I still love that cartoon to this day. Children these days tend to be socially inept and interact with their peers with a computer screen between them, this removes body language and other social stimuli. I would,t be a kid today if you paid me.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo


"Ultimatey it is the parents responsibilty to bring up their children , not the authorities.

Of course it's the parents responsibility, but when those fortunate to have the title of parents fail, that's the time those empowered to act should act, the said agencies are there as a safety net for the child, they failed, not only did they fail these 2 offenders, they failed the victim, not only did they fail the victim, they failed they victims family, shame on them. "

I just think sometimes it is too easy to blame everyone else including the authorities.

IF these kids had been took into care, would that have stopped them being evil as to do what they did? Or would it have been too late for them already after the upbringing they endured.

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham


"I just think sometimes it is too easy to blame everyone else including the authorities"

But the authorities in this case had 31 chances to act, they failed 31 times, 7 children under the same organisation have lost their life since 2004, how much are they allowed to get away with?


"IF these kids had been took into care, would that have stopped them being evil as to do what they did?"

We'll never know, the ironic part about it is they won't be allowed out now until it's proved their "safe"


"Or would it have been too late for them already after the upbringing they endured"

Some children from various backgrounds who've had a raw deal during their upbringing, go on to make a success of their lives.

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester


"Ultimatey it is the parents responsibilty to bring up their children , not the authorities.

Of course it's the parents responsibility, but when those fortunate to have the title of parents fail, that's the time those empowered to act should act, the said agencies are there as a safety net for the child, they failed, not only did they fail these 2 offenders, they failed the victim, not only did they fail the victim, they failed they victims family, shame on them.

I just think sometimes it is too easy to blame everyone else including the authorities.

IF these kids had been took into care, would that have stopped them being evil as to do what they did? Or would it have been too late for them already after the upbringing they endured.

"

IF they are sociopaths... nope it wouldn't have changed them... BUT hopefully people would have been picked up on some telltale signs of their being a potentially serious psychological disorder.

IF they are not sociopaths... no it wouldn't have been a quick fix instant correction for years of conditioning. It would have been the start of a very long process... IF indeed the process started at all. BUT, there is a chance they could have intervened enough to have prevented what has happened.

IF’s and BUT’s hey!

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

I am trying to find news reports with info on how long the kids were under social services and I am not touching lucky.....saves me looking further because I am lazy, anyone got the full story that you know of for me to look at please?

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham


"anyone got the full story that you know of for me to look at please?"

You may find something under Google / BBC / Newsnight / injunction.

Doncaster hierarchy obtained an injunction against BBC2 Newsnight broadcasting there failings, however, that injunction has now been lifted.

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By *ickmealloverWoman
over a year ago

a very plush appartment off junt 7 M5

the mayor of doncaster refused to resign over these issues

At the end of the day, he wasn't responsible for these awful boys/children/monsters

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

Yeah not much is coming up and why I am struggling to comprehend it.

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By *afthalf OP   Man
over a year ago

Near you x

Well as this post and it follow up's show. Its virtually impossible to say who at blame for what happened and this is the very same dilemma that now faces the families and the authorities involved.

It happened with Jamie and its happened again. Changes should have been put into place but weren't, if they were then yes, we would indeed have someone to point the finger at.

Do really think the biggest crime of all is that in a few weeks as sad as it seems,it will be another story forgot about,until the next time something like this happens of course.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

I still think that the people who brought the children into the world had the responsibility.

Even if Social Services failed them at a later date, initially it was the parents who failed them, no one else.

The buck always stops with the manager of a shop if your goods are faulty.......the buck stops with the parents if they didn't give a good homelife or teach their children the right way to behave.

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham


"the buck stops with the parents if they didn't give a good homelife or teach their children the right way to behave."

We'll agree to disagree on this one Rugby all I will say is no point in having a safety net if all we do is pass the buck back to the originators door

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

That "safety net" has a wide catchment area.

Those who sit and seethe because of so called failures in the system need to spend a day in the life of...

And despite it not bieng very PC.

We have to acknowledge that money or the lack of, does play a major factor in ANY services the public may use or need.

Years ago i would agree that it takes a community to raise a child but sadly these days that doesnt happen .

Bad parenting or parenting done by children having children needs to be addressed as a factor when looking at cases like this.

And yes, seems most of us will disagree on this subject. But thats life.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The two boys wont be locked up!! They will be in a 52 week placement somewhere on the coast line.

They will live in a very large house with beautiful surroundings (part of their treatment, they will have their own bedroom (the bedroom doors wont be locked for safety reasons) but there will be surveilance cameras monitoring them 24 hours a day).

They will be bought new clothes, they will have the best education, probably 1:1 tuition, pocket money, plastation, mobile phone etc they will want for nothing.

In a few years time, the case will be in an Archive somewhere.

What will the victims get - absolutely nothing. There is no justice in this country.

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By *ickmealloverWoman
over a year ago

a very plush appartment off junt 7 M5


"The two boys wont be locked up!! They will be in a 52 week placement somewhere on the coast line.

They will live in a very large house with beautiful surroundings (part of their treatment, they will have their own bedroom (the bedroom doors wont be locked for safety reasons) but there will be surveilance cameras monitoring them 24 hours a day).

They will be bought new clothes, they will have the best education, probably 1:1 tuition, pocket money, plastation, mobile phone etc they will want for nothing.

In a few years time, the case will be in an Archive somewhere.

What will the victims get - absolutely nothing. There is no justice in this country."

exactly

those poot victims of theirs will be told to move on and forget

I hope these evil boys fester in their own bile

Age is not excuse

upbringing is no excuse

Ignorance is no excuse

They are plain evil and what they did was horific

If they did it to your child, I'm sure the liberals here would be feeling somewhat differently

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham


"Those who sit and seethe because of so called failures in the system need to spend a day in the life of...

"

As an anonymous forum, members history is not up for discussion, however, no one knows anyone's past, we all have our own reasons for reasons for what we believe in

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I do not now or ever wish to know of anyones history.

Im just not willing to slap a failure sign on anyone without knowing the full facts.

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham


"Im just not willing to slap a failure sign on anyone without knowing the full facts. "

The facts are there Peaches, 7 child deaths since 2004!! all under the watch of Doncaster hierarchy

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As you said..the hierarchy.

Those on the front line vary rarely make the final decisions .

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham


"As you said..the hierarchy.

Those on the front line vary rarely make the final decisions . "

I've never, ever held those on the front line accountable for what has taken place, look through my postings on this thread, I've always held the hierarchy accountable for what's taken place, and will continue to do so.

Children don't ask to come into this world, however, society has a duty to take action as and when required, IF it's in the interest of the child.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

All we can do is agree that what has happened is horrific.

And hope it wont ever happen again, but sadly it probably will.

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham


"And hope it wont ever happen again, but sadly it probably will. "

Until such times as those empowered to act are charged with neglect, sadly I agree, no doubt it will happen again

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

These children were allowed to drink vodka, smoke cigarettes and cannabis from as young as nine, they watched violent and pornographic films, they had a history of violently abusing others: children, teachers, women on the street... they killed ducks in the park. They even had a 'trial run' at assaulting and terrorising a child a few days previously, at the same area to which they took their latest two victims , and were only stopped because of a passing fisherman.

They have been running wild for years prior to being caught this time, only sparing lives because their 'arms grew tired'

I'm sorry but I cannot see them as innocent victims of their upbringing. Yes they had a violent abusive father and a drugged up mother but even though the social services intervened and took them for days out to the seaside, took them to football matches etc. placed them with foster-parents, they still reverted to sociopathic behaviour.

They were emotionally detached and were remorseless...they committed these heinous crimes against their peers because they had 'nowt else to do!'

I cannot see them being rehabilitated into living a normal everyday existence, 75% of young offenders leaving secure units re-offend within 12 months of release... I for one would not like to have their future victims fate on my conscience once released.

I'm heart sick for the young victims and their families and heart sick also for the offenders, but I can't see this torturing pair changing for the good. I just hope that the victims can eventually overcome their horrific ordeal.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo


"the buck stops with the parents if they didn't give a good homelife or teach their children the right way to behave.

We'll agree to disagree on this one Rugby all I will say is no point in having a safety net if all we do is pass the buck back to the originators door "

But isn't the safety net only used when there becomes a problem?

Most parents manage to bring up their children in a loving home that don't need the safety net.

This couple didn't bring up their children as normal people would....so although the safety net might well have acted sooner ( going by what people have said ), they are not responsible for how the parents brought their children up.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

When social services are bought in, its very often when the problem is already out of hand.

When the damage is done.

Said parents will often lie and make false statments and try and cover up any wrong doing.

Even said kids will aid and abet parents.

There is no net big enough for such families .

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By *exeteraWoman
over a year ago

Bridgend

The sad fact about this case is that there are so many victims and until we know all the facts (which we never will) all we can do is speculate but it is obvious that change is needed. This poem reminds me of what can and does happen if we do nothing.

When the Nazis came for the communists,

I remained silent;

I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,

I remained silent;

I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,

I did not speak out;

I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,

I remained silent;

I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,

there was no one left to speak out.

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By *icelymarkedMan
over a year ago

Cardiff

No matter what we all feel (personally I feel quiet sick at the whole thing) we unfortunately have to live with it, as do the poor victims - and no, I am not equating our collective feelings to the them, although the obvious anger spilling out into this thread indicates we have all been affected too.

However, throughout history there have been evil doings, and sadly there will always be evil doings. This will not be the last case like this because that is just the way things are.

This is a mad world we live in where sexual activity is in all forms is treated as a sort of secret, underground thing that we are not allowed to see easily (even though it represents the most natural and intense human activity in most of it's forms) whereas you can see on telly all sorts of murder and mayhem at any hour of the day.

What is more obscene? Making love or disobeying the great commandment, 'Thou shalt not kill'?

And then we wonder at people who are or become evil.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

invented? hmmmm really?...... so bio-psychologists know nothing about actual physical deformities within the brain? abnormalities to the limbic system? the way these obstacles alter & torment behaviour,emotions etc beyond someone's actual control????........

sorry but i think you may just want to research that. not being smug, but its got to the stage in this day and age where behaviour can be proven through physical abnormalities within the human brain.....if i didn't understand that i wouldn't of bothered with this post. i will always feel sorry for the victims, but i will also understand the culprit can be a victim of behaviour beyond their control!.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"No matter what we all feel (personally I feel quiet sick at the whole thing) we unfortunately have to live with it, as do the poor victims - and no, I am not equating our collective feelings to the them, although the obvious anger spilling out into this thread indicates we have all been affected too.

However, throughout history there have been evil doings, and sadly there will always be evil doings. This will not be the last case like this because that is just the way things are.

This is a mad world we live in where sexual activity is in all forms is treated as a sort of secret, underground thing that we are not allowed to see easily (even though it represents the most natural and intense human activity in most of it's forms) whereas you can see on telly all sorts of murder and mayhem at any hour of the day.

What is more obscene? Making love or disobeying the great commandment, 'Thou shalt not kill'?

And then we wonder at people who are or become evil."

The commandment is the most obscene and comical. It blindly assumes everyone is a Christian or even a believer. It's ironic to hear God quoted when less than 5% of the population go to church.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What has being a Christian or God got to do with going to church ?

You can still be a Christian, believe in God and never set foot inside a church

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Im shocked once again at the legal system of this country.

Have followed thisstory since it first broke and honestly believed after the Jamie Bulger case that these 2 would have been held " at her Majestys pleasure ", in other words, till the queen says they should be let out.

What do they get ??..5 years...5 YEARS !!...

"
You should read between the lines _afthalf, they are effectively being held at Her Majesty's pleasure. Ignore the five years, it's only come about due to a change in sentencing practice that means a 'lifer' has to be told the minimum length of sentence he will serve at the sentencing stage.

They received 'indeterminate sentences', that's the important bit, so will only be let out when they are deemed fit to be, which as others have pointed out is likely to be substantially more than 5 years given the nature of their sociopathy.

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By *exeteraWoman
over a year ago

Bridgend

[Removed by poster at 24/01/10 15:16:57]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

does anyone realy think that these animals will serve more than the minimum sentence set at 5 yrs i for one dont as i have no faith in the justice or should that be injustice system this country has its a sick joke and has been for many many yrs .murder is 8 yrs aprox sometimes less but cheat the taxman and its 10yrs+.cost of keeping a murderer in prison is thousands per yr and for what. how many have been let out to murder again how many care in the comunity lunatics have been released after being declared mentaly stable only to kill on there release.just how much is a noose and a trap door these days if they need someone for the job i'm available.enough of the talking and the hollow promises of sorting the problems in society we need action.

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham


"how much is a noose and a trap door these days"

Would you apply that to these 2 offenders?

There's no getting away from the crime they committed, horrendous as it was, these 2 are still children, children who were failed by their parents, children who were failed by the system, children who believed behaving in a thuggish manner was acceptable because no one, no one was willing to take responsibility for them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Bi 1

i dont think your going to win on this.

Emotions are running high and many of us are parents and the thought that someone could do this to one of your kids is enough to merit any horrendous punishment available. or not in this case.

Their will always be those at the top who MAY have been able to make a difference.?

In this case....I think not.

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham

[Removed by poster at 24/01/10 16:49:35]

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham

It's an open discussion peaches, I'm just expressing my opinion as everyone else seems to be doing, they've done wrong absolutely 110% in agreement, they need to be punished, absolutely 110% in agreement, but some of the punishment called for in this thread is uncalled for, I'm no liberal, no loyalty to the do good brigade, just think we need to bear in mind the ages of these offenders.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

But why ????

they had no feelings for their victims.

And as a mother...the lion comes to mind.

I know its an open forum, you have NO need to keep reminding me.

We would put a mad dog down..its about time we started doig the same.

Regardless of age.

they were old enough to know what they were doing was WRONG.

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham


"I know its an open forum, you have NO need to keep reminding me.

"

Where do I keep reminding you?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Bi 1

i dont think your going to win on this.

Emotions are running high and many of us are parents and the thought that someone could do this to one of your kids is enough to merit any horrendous punishment available. or not in this case.

Their will always be those at the top who MAY have been able to make a difference.?

In this case....I think not. "

I agree, the thought of anyone doing anything alike to my kids is frightening, but just as frightening is my kids doing that to anyone, as parents it has been proven here that we could be stood on any side of this disgusting crime.

How would people feel if it was their kids that did this and not their kids that received the torture?.

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham

[Removed by poster at 24/01/10 16:58:22]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It's an open discussion peaches,

what hapened was fooking awful.

But....

The blame has to lie with said irresponsible useless braindead parents and not the fooking state.

Im so sick of parents and the like who think the parents and such can negate their responsibility.

They had these kids, they didnt bring them up properly. they neglected them.

Why the hell should someone else pick up the pieces. ??????

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By *ickmealloverWoman
over a year ago

a very plush appartment off junt 7 M5

the kids have somne responsibility ffs

if they can choose a video game

or choose a chocolate bar

or choose to torture someone or not

They made a choice

They need to pay for making a bad choice

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By (user no longer on site)
Forum Mod
over a year ago

If you can't have an adult debate with out resorting to personal attack or name calling because they don't share your opinion then I will close the thread

Play nice please

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham


"the kids have somne responsibility ffs

if they can choose a video game

or choose a chocolate bar

or choose to torture someone or not

They made a choice

They need to pay for making a bad choice"

My postings are clear in this thread, I've agreed with all what you say, just the level of punishment I have a difference with.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why the hell should admin be bought in ???

im stumped i really am.

Is it because they called you a do gooder ?

Mnay people will have this feeling, they may not voice it.

But feelings are running high on this.

Kids were tortured ffs.

And parents were absent thru out these torturers lives.

People will get emotional.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Come on people, let's not get into an argument about this.

We are all horrified with what has happened, hence why I have mainly kept out of this.

We all have reactions to such evil doings, and are likely to act in a passionate way.

Like I stated, people here tend to think about how they would feel if it happened to their kids, but what if it was their kids that did it?.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Lol........

I give up...

my Parent emotions are running away with me. etc.

end of.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Come on people, let's not get into an argument about this.

We are all horrified with what has happened, hence why I have mainly kept out of this.

We all have reactions to such evil doings, and are likely to act in a passionate way.

Like I stated, people here tend to think about how they would feel if it happened to their kids, but what if it was their kids that did it?. "

i have answered this question

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By *ickmealloverWoman
over a year ago

a very plush appartment off junt 7 M5

If it were my kids that did it I would probably disown them

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Come on people, let's not get into an argument about this.

We are all horrified with what has happened, hence why I have mainly kept out of this.

We all have reactions to such evil doings, and are likely to act in a passionate way.

Like I stated, people here tend to think about how they would feel if it happened to their kids, but what if it was their kids that did it?.

i have answered this question"

I know, just thought it was a valid question that puts a different tilt on it and so worth asking again.

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham


"If it were my kids that did it I would probably disown them"

Off course you would, any level headed / responsible parent would, but the parents of these 2 are not responsible / level headed parents lime you or others.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"If it were my kids that did it I would probably disown them

"

But, would you, really?

or would you wonder what you had done wrong and try to correct the wrong?.

I have no idea what I would do, or how I would respond to either side.

I imagine if it happened to my child I would lose my rag a little and hurt whoever I thought was truly to blame, hopefully I will never have reason to find out my reactions.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Not responsible ???????? ffs

Yes they are and should be in fooking prison

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"If it were my kids that did it I would probably disown them

Off course you would, any level headed / responsible parent would, but the parents of these 2 are not responsible / level headed parents lime you or others.

"

in your opinion is 5 yrs too harsh a sentence

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By *ickmealloverWoman
over a year ago

a very plush appartment off junt 7 M5

[Removed by poster at 24/01/10 17:22:31]

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By *ickmealloverWoman
over a year ago

a very plush appartment off junt 7 M5

No I would disown them

I have a criminal brother

And I disowned him years ago

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Ive lost the plot somewhere i really have.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Ive lost the plot somewhere i really have.

"

you should run for government then

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Ive lost the plot somewhere i really have.

"

That's common knowledge Peaches, but what's that got to do with this thread?.

Is this the longest thread to stay on topic?.

until now.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Oiiii

im sane i tell ya. its the others who have lost it.

Bigtime.

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham


"in your opinion is 5 yrs too harsh a sentence"

No it's not, they need to be kept in a secure environment until such times as they as redeemed safe, but people saying they need to be hanged, etc., etc.,. is nothing short of blood thirsty.

Not long ago in Afghanistan 2 12 year old boys were publicly hanged for shop lifting, this was the punishment under Shraria Law, forget about politics / religion, is that punishment acceptable? because that the punishment some are asking for.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

emotions are running high on this same as they done with the jamie bulger case now those two will be sent to australia new life new id's constant protection same as maxine carr and god knows how many others!

in how many yrs time when these people are walkin the streets would you be happy if it was YOUR new neighbour and u didnt know their past?? would u be happy to raise your kids beside them? i wouldnt! we have crossed the line in this country the offender becomes the protected survival of the fittest.

yes they are children yes they had a bad upbringing yes the parents should be mass sterilised and their offspring to prevent the mass breeding for the money from the state and what it keeps to keep social services and the jail system in fundin looking after them.its all wrong.

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By *ishful.thinkingWoman
over a year ago

east london

Why is it crimes by children on children bring out the most elemental emotions in us. Over the past several months there have been horrific crimes committed by adults but it has barely caused a ripple here.

This to is an emotive issue for me – I am the single mother of an 11 year old girl. Yet in all off this I see 4 victims - all children. I agree that the two perpetrators should be punished but to talk about throwing away the key or hanging them truly frightens me.

I accept complete responsibility of my daughter both the good and bad, I also accept that she makes choices but how she makes those choices boils down to lessons learned at our knees and here I emphasis our knees in this case it is her father and me. In my case I was brought up by a community – my parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, neighbours, friends all were likely to correct me (may hap with a slap to my ass or a real dressing down), but with that I was tucked up in bed with a kiss and told I was loved, I was hugged and told I’d get it right, I was given time and space to find myself while been closely watched and quietly directed.

I have to wonder who tucked those two boys up, what was whispered in their ears, what was seen by there eyes, what made them think these terrible acts were acceptable?

I can only hope that the time spent in custody benefits them as I’d hate to think in this age that a custodial couldn’t rehabilate a child as in my eyes that’s is what they are.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Hmmm, lets make a couple of assumptions as none of us know all the facts associated with this incident.

We all have the utmost sympathy with the victims and families and as such would love them to feel better as punishment and retribution,vengence are natural human emotions.

The two offenders in this situation had a horrible life beforehand and no one disputes this will have had an impact on their actions, the parents ( loosely described) of the offenders are also at fault here.

Now, my opinion in the long run the parents of the victims, the victims themselves and families of potential victims in the future will wish to be CERTAIN these two offenders will never be allowed to do this type of thing again.

IF ,and this is the assumption these offenders are psychopaths/sociopaths then they were born that way ( neurological brain disorder) and as such they were guilty of this offence but not responsible as they didnt know or care their actions were wrong.

This is only a legal definition as no one disputes their guilt.

If they are monitored and assessed on a regular basis then the likelihood is they will spend the rest of their lives in a secure institution of some sort.(if they are true psychopaths/sociopaths ).

Now on the hot topic of if it was your child would you disown them ?

IF my child had been born with a mental defect that was there from birth then I would not disown them, the same way I wouldnt disown any disability.

I would understand that they require to be seperated from society to protect society from them and to protect them from society.

I wouldnt wish this situation on anybody, but unfortunately it does happen.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I know my opinions differ from many, in as much as i dont hold the state etc responsible.

So im agreeing to let my opinions lie on this matter rather than offend or upset anyone on the forums.

It doesnt make my opinions go away however, its just that im not in to annoying anyone. even myself on this topic.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

lets hope your young never develop any abnormal behaviour that is physically beyond their control!...........

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

if i seen the signs of anythin like that happening i would be straight for professional help and intervention not chuck them a joint or vodka or whatever else those poor kids were gettin!!!

there is a lot about this case that has not been published yet and probably never will.

my blame still lies with the parents and the enviroment these kids were in but also a part with social services, education, the police etc xx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"lets hope your young never develop any abnormal behaviour that is physically beyond their control!........... "

Is this meant for me ?????

if so...may i add my son is now grown up, well adjusted and perfectly ok. thanks to good parenting.

And i dont apreciate this post.

I have tried not to put this debate on a personal level and would appreciate you doing the same.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

it got pretty personal way back in this post after reading it, which is a shame really....

wasn't actually meant to be overly personal.

everyone has and is entitled to their opinions, as we all have a say on the matter. this was always going to be an argument rather than a debatable post, as more often than not, most people just don't understand the UNDERLYING complications of the offenders....!

ps:-

wasn't relating to behavioural conditioning of children. more toward what they have to work with from birth, which is undetectable and can be triggered at any time in their lives.....! so easy to put a noose around their necks and turn a blind eye to their uncontrollable issues.

olde england here we come!

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By *exeteraWoman
over a year ago

Bridgend

We learn what is right and what is wrong, it is not a conditioning that we are born with. The media has portrayed the toxic upbringing the guilty lads received. As I've stated in earlier threads, children don't come with a manual. It's a case of monkey see, monkey do and violence, alcohol and drugs were the norm for these young lads, totally saturated with it for what seems like most of their short years. I feel for the family of the young lads tortured but I also feel for the two young lads who tortured as they never had the chance of normality, I think we should be thankul for what we have and accept that there has and always will be heinous crimes, lots of which are in the name of religion. I also agree that our justice system is in need of a major overhaul as lots of the laws relate back to master and serf.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"in your opinion is 5 yrs too harsh a sentence

No it's not, they need to be kept in a secure environment until such times as they as redeemed safe, but people saying they need to be hanged, etc., etc.,. is nothing short of blood thirsty.

Not long ago in Afghanistan 2 12 year old boys were publicly hanged for shop lifting, this was the punishment under Shraria Law, forget about politics / religion, is that punishment acceptable? because that the punishment some are asking for. "

no kids are going to get hanged in the uk and its not worth debating and its not something i or anyone else would want but what we do want is fairer sentences for serious offences.yes i would bring back capital punishment for murder without question simply becauce at present there is absolutley no detterent for murderers.can you please tell me who is asking for capital punishment for shoplifting .we dont have shraria law and this aint afghanistan so can you please keep it on topic

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham


"no kids are going to get hanged in the uk and its not worth debating and its not something i or anyone else would want"

Really????????????

4 hours ago, you posted this:


"just how much is a noose and a trap door these days if they need someone for the job i'm available."

Your contradictory posts above is one reason why it's difficult to have an intelligent debate with some.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"it got pretty personal way back in this post after reading it, which is a shame really....

wasn't actually meant to be overly personal.

everyone has and is entitled to their opinions, as we all have a say on the matter. this was always going to be an argument rather than a debatable post, as more often than not, most people just don't understand the UNDERLYING complications of the offenders....!

ps:-

wasn't relating to behavioural conditioning of children. more toward what they have to work with from birth, which is undetectable and can be triggered at any time in their lives.....! so easy to put a noose around their necks and turn a blind eye to their uncontrollable issues.

olde england here we come!"

I was expressing my opinion. i was not and never was "personal" to anyone.

Its an emotive subject and closer to some than others.

end of.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"no kids are going to get hanged in the uk and its not worth debating and its not something i or anyone else would want

Really????????????

4 hours ago, you posted this:

just how much is a noose and a trap door these days if they need someone for the job i'm available.

Your contradictory posts above is one reason why it's difficult to have an intelligent debate with some."

maybe you need to read that post again becauce i said murderers and unless i'm mistaken the kids that were attacked are still alive.i do not wish for these kids to be hanged but i have no wish for them to be on the streets in 5 yrs time either.

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham


"maybe you need to read that post again becauce i said murderers and unless i'm mistaken the kids that were attacked are still alive"

Oh, so when you posted this at me:


"can you please keep it on topic"

You decided to take this thread off topic numerous hours earlier knowing full well it's not about murderer's!!!


"i have no wish for them to be on the streets in 5 yrs time either."

And neither do I, where in this thread have I said anything different?

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo


"I know my opinions differ from many, in as much as i dont hold the state etc responsible.

So im agreeing to let my opinions lie on this matter rather than offend or upset anyone on the forums.

It doesnt make my opinions go away however, its just that im not in to annoying anyone. even myself on this topic. "

I echo your opinion and have done on the thread.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo


"it got pretty personal way back in this post after reading it, which is a shame really....

wasn't actually meant to be overly personal.

everyone has and is entitled to their opinions, as we all have a say on the matter. this was always going to be an argument rather than a debatable post, as more often than not, most people just don't understand the UNDERLYING complications of the offenders....!

ps:-

wasn't relating to behavioural conditioning of children. more toward what they have to work with from birth, which is undetectable and can be triggered at any time in their lives.....! so easy to put a noose around their necks and turn a blind eye to their uncontrollable issues.

olde england here we come!"

According to pscyologists in one of the papers today, it could be down to just their upbringing. They were brought up in a violent homelife and just followed suit, not knowing that it is wrong as that is all they know.

I am always wary of everytime someone does anything wrong there is someone out there who will make an excuse as to why they do it.

They even invented a new illness for a man once who hammered his mum and dad to death, then went out and spent all their money on their cards.

For me, whatever they want to call it, it boils down to the same thing. Not everyone is evil enough to do these crimes, and to suggest that everyone who does has amental illness, insults every other person who does have a mental illness but who don't go round trying to or killing people.

*mods hat on*

I know it is a very intense debate but keep it clean please.

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham


"I am always wary of everytime someone does anything wrong there is someone out there who will make an excuse as to why they do it"

Giving an excuse is one thing, providing a reasonable explanation is another, problem is most people confuse a reasonable explanation as an excuse.


"For me, whatever they want to call it, it boils down to the same thing. Not everyone is evil enough to do these crimes, and to suggest that everyone who does has amental illness, insults every other person who does have a mental illness but who don't go round trying to or killing people"

How can they be "normal"? it's not natural to kill people, those who do must be mentally unstable, thus having a mental illness.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo


"I am always wary of everytime someone does anything wrong there is someone out there who will make an excuse as to why they do it

Giving an excuse is one thing, providing a reasonable explanation is another, problem is most people confuse a reasonable explanation as an excuse.

For me, whatever they want to call it, it boils down to the same thing. Not everyone is evil enough to do these crimes, and to suggest that everyone who does has amental illness, insults every other person who does have a mental illness but who don't go round trying to or killing people

How can they be "normal"? it's not natural to kill people, those who do must be mentally unstable, thus having a mental illness."

but as it hasn't been said they have a mental illness, they must be classed as normal..but evil.

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham


"I am always wary of everytime someone does anything wrong there is someone out there who will make an excuse as to why they do it

Giving an excuse is one thing, providing a reasonable explanation is another, problem is most people confuse a reasonable explanation as an excuse.

For me, whatever they want to call it, it boils down to the same thing. Not everyone is evil enough to do these crimes, and to suggest that everyone who does has amental illness, insults every other person who does have a mental illness but who don't go round trying to or killing people

How can they be "normal"? it's not natural to kill people, those who do must be mentally unstable, thus having a mental illness.

but as it hasn't been said they have a mental illness, they must be classed as normal..but evil."

Due to their age and as they've not developed it's difficult to class them as “mentally unstable” no doubt forensic psychologists / psychiatrist will be queueing up to give up their opinion.

I don't believe their evil, Huntley (adult) Hindley (adult) Brady (Adult) were all evil, but these pair of kids, no I don't believe at this stage they're evil, that doesn't place me in the do good brigade, or a liberal, just someone who looks at it from a different angle.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

So if you don't think battering someone to near death is evil..what do you personally class it?

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham


"So if you don't think battering someone to near death is evil..what do you personally class it?"

I would class these pair as mentally unstable because of their age, I'm not making excuses for them, but when brutal acts of violence are carried by adults such as Fred & Rosemary West, the actions by them pair truly was evil, I'm not here to win anyone over, just my opinion

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

Didn’t most of us look at our parents/guardians as God’s in some way when we were growing up? Wasn’t their word THE law at some point? Didn’t most of us get taught something by them that we later found out to be a pile of pants? Our neighbour’s son had ringworm and my mum told us that ringworm was a tiny worm under the skin that burrowed in a circle… we believed it at the time as we didn’t know any better. I remember doing the cycling proficiency test at junior school… my friend would still cycle the wrong way up a one-way street… why? “Because my mum says I have to come this way home” she’d always reply.

Of course ignoring a one-way street sign and thinking a fungal infection is really a worm which goes around in a circle all day is a million and one miles away from what these two boys did.

But imagine growing up in an environment (for example) where you have only seen disagreements resolved by violence. Where you’ve been told if someone picks on you make sure you hurt them! You go to school for the first time and do what you have been taught by your parents “hit the fucker if they give you grief”. The teacher tells you it’s wrong to hit little Kevin and gives you a letter to take home. Your parents tell you “Fuck the teacher! You batter the little c*nt!” you tell your parents “I don’t want to, the teacher said it was bad”… so your parents start shouting at you, calling you a little shit for being a coward and encourage your sibling to fight with you.

Get the idea yet? Probably not! Because I doubt any of us can imagine what it’s really like to be a 10 year old child and the whole 10 years of your life being like that. But I’d hope most of us can appreciate how fucked up we’d be in terms of working out what is the right thing to do when we’ve never been taught it by our parents in the first place.

The parents moulded these two children… unless they are indeed born sociopaths in which case the parents ignored it and contributed further.

My personal opinion is… there’s more than one issue here and we shouldn’t be trying to choose one. All of the issues need addressing.

The parents should be held ‘responsible’ for their part in nurturing the behaviour of their children. I have every sympathy for parents who do their best and seek all the help they can if their children go off the rails. As far as I can tell the parents of these two children never put them on the rails to begin with and that was the parent’s choice, the children had no choice in that matter.

The authorities need to be held to account for failing their purpose. As someone has already said… there isn’t much point in having a safety net if the holes are too big to catch those who are falling. Whether it be funding, protocol or mismanagement which lead to their failing, the questions must be asked and the holes in the net made smaller.

The perpetrators need to be removed from society (as they have been) and professionally assessed. If it was nature which caused their behaviour they should be kept away from society for the remainder of their lives. If it was nurture which caused their behaviour they should be rehabilitated over a long period of time and not even considered for release until it is achieved beyond any doubt. As for punishment if it was the latter…. Well what more should we ask for beyond what will be (at the very least) their whole childhood and adolescence being denied them in one way or another mostly down to other people’s choices.

And last, but certainly not least, the victims and those who love them. I sincerely hope they get the help and support they will need to go forwards and eventually regain happiness in their lives; something the preaching of seeking vengeance for the rest of their lives will certainly not bring. I don’t believe they need to find forgiveness, I do believe they need to eventually have understanding of why it happened. But they are a long, long way off from that stage.

Of course this is all just my opinion.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

Exactly what an expert said in the paper today about their homelife and how they would have thought it was normal Polo.

Bogof...as polo says, after they have been assessed then obviously they will know what they are dealing with......but if it comes about that they are not mentally unstable, then for me they are still evil.

I know they are kids, but being brought up in a violent enviroment would still make most people shun actually wanting to near kill someone.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Genuine question, I'm not having a "pop" at anyone,

Is evil different from mental defect?

I dont believe everyone with a mental defect is evil.

I do believe everyone who is evil has a mental defect.

Does evil exist on its own? ( no mental defect )

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

I really don't know plums.......one side of me kicks in and I would like to think that surely these kids have something wrong with them to behave this way......but the other side says, if they havn't, they are evil.

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham


"but if it comes about that they are not mentally unstable, then for me they are still evil"

Once they've been mentally evaluated which will take many years if they are then labelled evil then they should never, ever be released

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

I think a lot would agree with that bi one

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham


"Does evil exist on its own? ( no mental defect ) "

Depends how evil is defined, is every one who commits a crime evil I would hope not, of course it then depends on the crime.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Does evil exist on its own? ( no mental defect )

Depends how evil is defined, is every one who commits a crime evil I would hope not, of course it then depends on the crime."

That's not an answer, lol.

If replying to that question then surely it's how you define evil, whoever answers it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Does evil exist on its own? ( no mental defect )

Depends how evil is defined, is every one who commits a crime evil I would hope not, of course it then depends on the crime."

Evil isnt a legal definition or a clinical description, its most common use is in good vs evil, as in god vs the devil.

If its usage means " bad people" then yes evil exists, if it means evil as in god vs devil then thats a whole different debate.

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham


"That's not an answer, lol.

"

It wasn't meant to be

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

So maybe we should ask what peoples definition of evil is?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"So maybe we should ask what peoples definition of evil is?"

*** nodding ***

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"That's not an answer, lol.

It wasn't meant to be "

Smart arse!!

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham


"That's not an answer, lol.

It wasn't meant to be

Smart arse!! "

*If you're going to Barnsley, I'll buy you one *

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"That's not an answer, lol.

It wasn't meant to be

Smart arse!!

*If you're going to Barnsley, I'll buy you one *"

I'm not going.

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham


"So maybe we should ask what peoples definition of evil is?"

For me, someone who dedicates time in planning their crime I would consider evil, I don't believe those who act on the spur of the moment are in the same league, just how I see it, although I'm willing to be educated.

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By *i 1 Get 1 FreeCouple (MM)
over a year ago

birmingham


"That's not an answer, lol.

It wasn't meant to be

Smart arse!!

*If you're going to Barnsley, I'll buy you one *

I'm not going. "

You've lost a drink

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Not read all the posts, and not going to, everybody has their own feeling on this.

If it was my boys who had done this, I'd want to kill myself, couldn't live with the shame, and I would in the end want to taek my own life and some one of my blood line that would do that would hurt me for the rest of my life.

If on the other hand it was my boys who had been on the receiving end, like ALL parents, you would want justice and kill or hurt those two boys I would. Eye for an eye and all that.

I think, we need all of us to sit down, think things over and maybe us and jo publice make decisions that the goverment listen to and take note that we are fed yuop with silly prison sentacnes. These lads had planned this and was caluclated into possible murder, They deserve everything they get. No doubt in 5 years, they will be let out, new names and be shipped off to another part of the UK, or maybe another country.

I feel strong on this, so strong How I feel would get me banned from this site and alot of you nice people on here would ignore me. Lets just say, Justice in this case is not string enough

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

How can anyone say the sentence is not strong enough, nobody knows the sentence, all we know is by law a minimum term must be given, these two will probably never set foot outside again, scaremongering at its best.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

well thts just it really, there are over 12 schools of psychology who ridicule each others theories. as after all they are just theories as there is no yes or definitive no in psychology. hence it is not a science as such and cannot be refuted to an acceptable degree. though i as i was trying to point out to another reply earlier, there 'is' sufficient evidence that we as humans CAN be born with abnormal constructs within our brain.... and these abnormalities can and do have a very big say in our behaviour in society. psychology as a whole is going back to its physiological roots as a result of this, away from the radical behavioural theorists.....

all i was saying that it is now a fact that mentally dysfunctional people can and are victims to complicated neural abnormalities. as daft and weird as it sounds, it is now an acceptable fact. but not everyone chooses to accept it...

its not all down to being nurtured in environments no more. nature has a say, a very big one!

nature versus nurture debate, over 2000 year old....and still going strong ha

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By *afthalf OP   Man
over a year ago

Near you x

( Note to self..next time you have a thought, keep it as a thought ! )

.

.

.

.

In the meantime however, Have booked a holiday that will coincide with school term in September. Now, have been informed that if i do carry on with this i may have to pay for my child's time away from school ( after all it is my fault ).

So, having thought about this a little more i realized that until the age of 18 my child is my responsibility, if they "wag" school i can be brought up on charges in a court of law, why ? because its my responsibility to make sure that i do my job as a parent and get them to school etc.

Its my name on the birth certificate, i brought them in to this world, its my moral responsibility to teach them right from wrong, so yes, if they do fuck up...Untill the age of 18,

It is the parents fault.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

crazy world....

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By *leasureDomeMan
over a year ago

all over the place


"Didn’t most of us look at our parents/guardians as God’s in some way when we were growing up? Wasn’t their word THE law at some point? Didn’t most of us get taught something by them that we later found out to be a pile of pants? Our neighbour’s son had ringworm and my mum told us that ringworm was a tiny worm under the skin that burrowed in a circle… we believed it at the time as we didn’t know any better. I remember doing the cycling proficiency test at junior school… my friend would still cycle the wrong way up a one-way street… why? “Because my mum says I have to come this way home” she’d always reply.

Of course ignoring a one-way street sign and thinking a fungal infection is really a worm which goes around in a circle all day is a million and one miles away from what these two boys did.

But imagine growing up in an environment (for example) where you have only seen disagreements resolved by violence. Where you’ve been told if someone picks on you make sure you hurt them! You go to school for the first time and do what you have been taught by your parents “hit the fucker if they give you grief”. The teacher tells you it’s wrong to hit little Kevin and gives you a letter to take home. Your parents tell you “Fuck the teacher! You batter the little c*nt!” you tell your parents “I don’t want to, the teacher said it was bad”… so your parents start shouting at you, calling you a little shit for being a coward and encourage your sibling to fight with you.

Get the idea yet? Probably not! Because I doubt any of us can imagine what it’s really like to be a 10 year old child and the whole 10 years of your life being like that. But I’d hope most of us can appreciate how fucked up we’d be in terms of working out what is the right thing to do when we’ve never been taught it by our parents in the first place.

The parents moulded these two children… unless they are indeed born sociopaths in which case the parents ignored it and contributed further.

My personal opinion is… there’s more than one issue here and we shouldn’t be trying to choose one. All of the issues need addressing.

The parents should be held ‘responsible’ for their part in nurturing the behaviour of their children. I have every sympathy for parents who do their best and seek all the help they can if their children go off the rails. As far as I can tell the parents of these two children never put them on the rails to begin with and that was the parent’s choice, the children had no choice in that matter.

The authorities need to be held to account for failing their purpose. As someone has already said… there isn’t much point in having a safety net if the holes are too big to catch those who are falling. Whether it be funding, protocol or mismanagement which lead to their failing, the questions must be asked and the holes in the net made smaller.

The perpetrators need to be removed from society (as they have been) and professionally assessed. If it was nature which caused their behaviour they should be kept away from society for the remainder of their lives. If it was nurture which caused their behaviour they should be rehabilitated over a long period of time and not even considered for release until it is achieved beyond any doubt. As for punishment if it was the latter…. Well what more should we ask for beyond what will be (at the very least) their whole childhood and adolescence being denied them in one way or another mostly down to other people’s choices.

And last, but certainly not least, the victims and those who love them. I sincerely hope they get the help and support they will need to go forwards and eventually regain happiness in their lives; something the preaching of seeking vengeance for the rest of their lives will certainly not bring. I don’t believe they need to find forgiveness, I do believe they need to eventually have understanding of why it happened. But they are a long, long way off from that stage.

Of course this is all just my opinion.

"

And one i agree with polo,if these kids were as has been reported ,brought up in a environment of violence and sexual imagery not meant for there young eyes,a loveless home with a feral dog eat dog mindset then its hardly surprising they behaved as they did.

It is easy to indoctrinate kids to believe and behave how you want them to,lots of examples through history ie,the Hitler youth who killed many people in the name of their country and genuinely believed what they was supporting was normal and good,bullying and violence was encouraged as good little Aryans they believed they should rule the world and destroy anything that got in the way. There were 8 million of them who after the post war deprogramming, went on to lead fruitful lives (the current pope was a member)

Kids believe what we tell them,say it enough times and the synapses are formed and to them it becomes "normal"

Couple that with a lack of parental love and you have a scenario where they will export what they have learnt into society and have no idea its wrong,its all they know.

For me this is at the door of the parents and a social services who should of removed them to a place of safety far earlier in there lives.

with the parents taken to court for neglect of parental duties.

Thank god the little lads who were the victims survived.If i was a parent i would want the kids old man done and sent down if only for giving em dope on the morning of the attack..

What a fucked up sorry excuse for a man he is !!!! grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Free will & determinism debate??

free will the doctrine that we as conscious human beings are free to make genuinely undetermined choices in circumstances where we are genuinely able to do so, and where we so freely, or (relavently) unconstrainedly, choose to do so.

genetic determinism - the concept of determinism is linked directly to the genes in the DNA of a person. Because we already know that aberrations in certain genes can lead to various forms of physical and mental disease in humans, its one argument that will go on for many more years, as a race, we choose not accept all theories or indeed the facts sometimes..

this post will go on on on

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So what your saying is they may just need counselling

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

as bad as this may sound, they may need more than just behavioural counselling. but to be blunt yes, they do need to be analysed to enable themselves & therapists to understand their motives from the source. i can see why so many people have replied with 'throw them away and lock the key & eye for an eye etc'......

but what if these youths and many like them actually have abnormalities they are totally unaware of as was their parents???? it really could be anyone in this situation.

a child reared in a laboratory correct upbringing by their parents will learn/imitate good behaviour, but if there are underlying psychological/biological deformities then its a tough call really......

i dont condone such acts of violence, but these culprits may well like many others be at the mercy of something they cannot control....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"as bad as this may sound, they may need more than just behavioural counselling. but to be blunt yes, they do need to be analysed to enable themselves & therapists to understand their motives from the source. i can see why so many people have replied with 'throw them away and lock the key & eye for an eye etc'......

but what if these youths and many like them actually have abnormalities they are totally unaware of as was their parents???? it really could be anyone in this situation.

a child reared in a laboratory correct upbringing by their parents will learn/imitate good behaviour, but if there are underlying psychological/biological deformities then its a tough call really......

i dont condone such acts of violence, but these culprits may well like many others be at the mercy of something they cannot control...."

Well you'll be glad to hear they've lodged an appeal and expect compensation too

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

a child reared in a laboratory correct upbringing by their parents will learn/imitate good behaviour, but if there are underlying psychological/biological deformities then its a tough call really......

"

I have a couple of friends who raised their child in a secure loving family home, mum was always there for the child coming home from school, made sure he got a home cooked lunch, dad encouraged his football, swimming, tennis to boys championships level, scouts etc.

Yet this same son was a heroin addict a thief and broke their hearts many a time, and every time they asked where did we go wrong?

They still torture themselves and ask how a child of a loving secure family has degenerated into the wreck of humanity he now is.

He has been assessed and assessed but no physical/psychological abnormality has been detected.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

a child reared in a laboratory correct upbringing by their parents will learn/imitate good behaviour, but if there are underlying psychological/biological deformities then its a tough call really......

I have a couple of friends who raised their child in a secure loving family home, mum was always there for the child coming home from school, made sure he got a home cooked lunch, dad encouraged his football, swimming, tennis to boys championships level, scouts etc.

Yet this same son was a heroin addict a thief and broke their hearts many a time, and every time they asked where did we go wrong?

They still torture themselves and ask how a child of a loving secure family has degenerated into the wreck of humanity he now is.

He has been assessed and assessed but no physical/psychological abnormality has been detected."

This is completely different. This person decided to take drugs and harm himself - the the two boys however inflicted torture and pain on two other children.

Lots of decent people have fallen victim to drugs and then crime to pay for their habit - it has got nothing to do with their upbringing.

Your friends brought their child up in what you describe as a loving home - the other boys were in, I believe, a Foster placement, which means they had been removed from their parents by a group of professionals asigned to their case. This means that the boys Social Worker has parental responsibility for the Children - it was the Social Workers responsibility and the other professionals asigned to the case to place the boys in the correct placement according to their needs. In my opinion, the professionals made a huge mistake - going on what the children had done prior to the attack on the two boys, they should have been placed in a secure unit not a Foster placement. If they had of been correctly placed, the terrible attack on the two innocent children would never have happened.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

a child reared in a laboratory correct upbringing by their parents will learn/imitate good behaviour, but if there are underlying psychological/biological deformities then its a tough call really......

I have a couple of friends who raised their child in a secure loving family home, mum was always there for the child coming home from school, made sure he got a home cooked lunch, dad encouraged his football, swimming, tennis to boys championships level, scouts etc.

Yet this same son was a heroin addict a thief and broke their hearts many a time, and every time they asked where did we go wrong?

They still torture themselves and ask how a child of a loving secure family has degenerated into the wreck of humanity he now is.

He has been assessed and assessed but no physical/psychological abnormality has been detected.

This is completely different. This person decided to take drugs and harm himself - the the two boys however inflicted torture and pain on two other children.

Lots of decent people have fallen victim to drugs and then crime to pay for their habit - it has got nothing to do with their upbringing.

Your friends brought their child up in what you describe as a loving home - the other boys were in, I believe, a Foster placement, which means they had been removed from their parents by a group of professionals asigned to their case. This means that the boys Social Worker has parental responsibility for the Children - it was the Social Workers responsibility and the other professionals asigned to the case to place the boys in the correct placement according to their needs. In my opinion, the professionals made a huge mistake - going on what the children had done prior to the attack on the two boys, they should have been placed in a secure unit not a Foster placement. If they had of been correctly placed, the terrible attack on the two innocent children would never have happened."

Sorry I realise it is different and I went off topic. I was just attempting in my clumsy way to illustrate that he didn't follow/imitate his parents good examples xx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Sorry I realise it is different and I went off topic. I was just attempting in my clumsy way to illustrate that he didn't follow/imitate his parents good examples xx

Hay, no proble, no need to apologise xxxx drug abuse is massive in this country and awful for other family members to cope with xx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 26/01/10 11:31:54]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

agreed......

i was merely giving an example that behaviour can sometimes be shaped and imitated(behavioural).....

but an abnormality to ones brain functioning is the real culprit more often studied these days in some cases...

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo


"

a child reared in a laboratory correct upbringing by their parents will learn/imitate good behaviour, but if there are underlying psychological/biological deformities then its a tough call really......

I have a couple of friends who raised their child in a secure loving family home, mum was always there for the child coming home from school, made sure he got a home cooked lunch, dad encouraged his football, swimming, tennis to boys championships level, scouts etc.

Yet this same son was a heroin addict a thief and broke their hearts many a time, and every time they asked where did we go wrong?

They still torture themselves and ask how a child of a loving secure family has degenerated into the wreck of humanity he now is.

He has been assessed and assessed but no physical/psychological abnormality has been detected.

This is completely different. This person decided to take drugs and harm himself - the the two boys however inflicted torture and pain on two other children.

Lots of decent people have fallen victim to drugs and then crime to pay for their habit - it has got nothing to do with their upbringing.

Your friends brought their child up in what you describe as a loving home - the other boys were in, I believe, a Foster placement, which means they had been removed from their parents by a group of professionals asigned to their case. This means that the boys Social Worker has parental responsibility for the Children - it was the Social Workers responsibility and the other professionals asigned to the case to place the boys in the correct placement according to their needs. In my opinion, the professionals made a huge mistake - going on what the children had done prior to the attack on the two boys, they should have been placed in a secure unit not a Foster placement. If they had of been correctly placed, the terrible attack on the two innocent children would never have happened."

From what little there is to read or has been reported, it seems they were with foster parents for 3 weeks before the attack. They were with their parents up until then.

By the sounds of it , yes, social services should have stepped in earlier, but ultimately it was their parents responsibility to bring up their own children , and they failed.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Not that it matters much but the mother of these boys, a know drug addict, had been asking social services for two years to take the boys away, because she couldn’t cope, she knew they were out of control, and told social services on numerous occasions, these pleas were all ignored until three weeks before the crime took place, any only then did they step in because she threatened to kill herself if they didn’t remove the boys.

Now too add insult to injury she's theatening to sue social services

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo


"

Now too add insult to injury she's theatening to sue social services "

Now why doesn't that surprise me

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I remember thinking when this story broke, how can children at such a young age, inflict such horror on other children, blame has to be with the parents.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Not that it matters much but the mother of these boys, a know drug addict, had been asking social services for two years to take the boys away, because she couldn’t cope, she knew they were out of control, and told social services on numerous occasions, these pleas were all ignored until three weeks before the crime took place, any only then did they step in because she threatened to kill herself if they didn’t remove the boys.

Now too add insult to injury she's theatening to sue social services "

Untill something bad happens social services are not really that bothered, i had a friend who tried to get help with her son, they said because she was sencible enough to know she needed help that she wasnt the sort of person they help out and that she should be able to sort it herself anyway her son aged 15 raped his younger sister oh and then social servies stepped in and took the bloody girl away and left him at home now had they listerned to the mother cry for help in the first place that girl would have never suffered what she did and been taken away fron her home and the son could have been given the help he needed, but stories like this are typical of social servies, their hands seem tied untill a child actually gets hurt or worse dies

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/154132

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I remember thinking when this story broke, how can children at such a young age, inflict such horror on other children, blame has to be with the parents."

not always, to an extend yes but i have two teenagers that are only 11 months apart, my eldest is great, never had any problems at school with her, never had any complaints outside school about her, never had the police round because of her, you dont know you have her most of the time, the yonger one went thro a real bad spell a couple of years ago, kicked out of school regular for bullying other kids, for hitting teachers, for stealing, i used to have to sleep with my money, if it wasnt nailed down she'd take it, she drank, smoked, was having sex, came to the point i used to have to take her to school and pick her up so i knew where she was and what she was doing, she went months without going out the house, but every now and again escaped out the window, i was at my nerves end with her, i fully expected her to end up pregnat or on drugs, she was also voilent towards me, now i never bought my daughter up to be like that, i always used to say how can i have two kids, bring them up the same and them be so very very different? i did everyting i could for that child, because despit how she was i loved her very much and refused to give up on her, she saw child psychologist the lot, luckly now shes older shes come throw the other side if her behaviour, but i do not blame myself for how she went, i did everything to help her but some people just dont want help

i think blaming the parents is just an easy option, but its not always the parents fault

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Well said naughty, I’ll hold my hand up and say that I blamed the parents, and still do as they must also take some responsibility, however when a parent admits defeat and asks for help, from the very service put in place to tackle these things, it shouldn’t take two years for it to arrive.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo


"I remember thinking when this story broke, how can children at such a young age, inflict such horror on other children, blame has to be with the parents.

not always, to an extend yes but i have two teenagers that are only 11 months apart, my eldest is great, never had any problems at school with her, never had any complaints outside school about her, never had the police round because of her, you dont know you have her most of the time, the yonger one went thro a real bad spell a couple of years ago, kicked out of school regular for bullying other kids, for hitting teachers, for stealing, i used to have to sleep with my money, if it wasnt nailed down she'd take it, she drank, smoked, was having sex, came to the point i used to have to take her to school and pick her up so i knew where she was and what she was doing, she went months without going out the house, but every now and again escaped out the window, i was at my nerves end with her, i fully expected her to end up pregnat or on drugs, she was also voilent towards me, now i never bought my daughter up to be like that, i always used to say how can i have two kids, bring them up the same and them be so very very different? i did everyting i could for that child, because despit how she was i loved her very much and refused to give up on her, she saw child psychologist the lot, luckly now shes older shes come throw the other side if her behaviour, but i do not blame myself for how she went, i did everything to help her but some people just dont want help

i think blaming the parents is just an easy option, but its not always the parents fault"

You could bring up two children in the exact same way but they may still end up totally different and who knows, one always being in trouble. Normal parents care about what happens to their children and bring them up knowing right from wrong. If one of those children falls to the wayside,then that is toally different in my eyes.

But if the parents brought their children up the way thes parents of these kids did, then I blame the parents.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

its all too easy to blame parents for any child having abnormal behaviour, its the easiest out there is. the buck dont always stop with the quality of parenting, if a child has much more complexed abnormalities within that hasn't been detected, the the child/or adult will listen to..............No one. no matter how good a parent you think you are!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

hmmmm mono-zygotic & dizygotic twins studies. prime example

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Apparantly the sentence is now under review to see if it was 'unduly lenient'

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Of course it was lenient, but then again thats what happens when the CPS drop attemted murder charges

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Of course it was lenient, but then again thats what happens when the CPS drop attemted murder charges "

Exactly !

Lets hope the review comes up trummps and a punishment is issued that matches the crime

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You have to see the funny side though, if smashing someone’s head in with a brick, which was followed up with dropping a ceramic sink on the same head, is not attempted murder then what is

Even after they admitted saying "we can't go yet, we haven't killed them"

The bloody CPS should be put in the dock.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo


"its all too easy to blame parents for any child having abnormal behaviour, its the easiest out there is. the buck dont always stop with the quality of parenting, if a child has much more complexed abnormalities within that hasn't been detected, the the child/or adult will listen to..............No one. no matter how good a parent you think you are!

"

It won't matter how many times you say it, it still hasn't been said that these boys have a mental condition.

And I will say again, if they havn't got a mental condition then the buck stops with the disgusting way they were brought up.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

a child reared in a laboratory correct upbringing by their parents will learn/imitate good behaviour, but if there are underlying psychological/biological deformities then its a tough call really......

I have a couple of friends who raised their child in a secure loving family home, mum was always there for the child coming home from school, made sure he got a home cooked lunch, dad encouraged his football, swimming, tennis to boys championships level, scouts etc.

Yet this same son was a heroin addict a thief and broke their hearts many a time, and every time they asked where did we go wrong?

They still torture themselves and ask how a child of a loving secure family has degenerated into the wreck of humanity he now is.

He has been assessed and assessed but no physical/psychological abnormality has been detected.

This is completely different. This person decided to take drugs and harm himself - the the two boys however inflicted torture and pain on two other children.

Lots of decent people have fallen victim to drugs and then crime to pay for their habit - it has got nothing to do with their upbringing.

Your friends brought their child up in what you describe as a loving home - the other boys were in, I believe, a Foster placement, which means they had been removed from their parents by a group of professionals asigned to their case. This means that the boys Social Worker has parental responsibility for the Children - it was the Social Workers responsibility and the other professionals asigned to the case to place the boys in the correct placement according to their needs. In my opinion, the professionals made a huge mistake - going on what the children had done prior to the attack on the two boys, they should have been placed in a secure unit not a Foster placement. If they had of been correctly placed, the terrible attack on the two innocent children would never have happened.

From what little there is to read or has been reported, it seems they were with foster parents for 3 weeks before the attack. They were with their parents up until then.

By the sounds of it , yes, social services should have stepped in earlier, but ultimately it was their parents responsibility to bring up their own children , and they failed."

They were with their parents but they were removed from the parents care probably under the category of neglect. However, it is obvious Social Services did not place these children in the correct plae to suit the boys needs - therefore Social Services are also guilty of neglect - they had a duty of care towards these boys - if they had put them in a safer placement, this would never have happened.

I agree, its is the parents responsibility to bring their children up correctly but often these chidren are born into household where the parents are often uneducated, unemployed and living off the state. They probably dont know their arse from their elbow - the professionals however, took the boys away from their parents and placed them with Foster Parents who also neglected their needs. These two boys were high risk children who should never have been allowed outside the house unless supervised by a responsible adult. It should have been part of their Care Plan.

So I am sorry, the Care system has a lot to answer for in this case.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

if they haven't got any form of mental condition you'll instantly lay the blame at the parents?

so there is no such thing as being influenced by outside stimuli, environment and society having its say in shaping and transforming behaviour?

the blame wont just be put on parents these days, as there is simply more to it than that to be honest. psyche evaluation is always the way to go....

sometimes parents aren't to blame, but its easier to in the end! shame tho....

thread over ha

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Some people are just evil, it's as simple as that

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"if they haven't got any form of mental condition you'll instantly lay the blame at the parents?

so there is no such thing as being influenced by outside stimuli, environment and society having its say in shaping and transforming behaviour?

the blame wont just be put on parents these days, as there is simply more to it than that to be honest. psyche evaluation is always the way to go....

sometimes parents aren't to blame, but its easier to in the end! shame tho....

thread over ha

"

are you a paid psychotherapist/ psychologist or in your third semester studying it?

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By *iker BullMan
over a year ago

leeds

The politically correct brigade are to blame for this,,they take away all rights to chastise children,and have limited powers against the so called parents,,Its high time the human rights of victims was put first and foremost,instead of wasting money on sending the little bastards on holidays and the like

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester


"if they haven't got any form of mental condition you'll instantly lay the blame at the parents?

so there is no such thing as being influenced by outside stimuli, environment and society having its say in shaping and transforming behaviour?

the blame wont just be put on parents these days, as there is simply more to it than that to be honest. psyche evaluation is always the way to go....

sometimes parents aren't to blame, but its easier to in the end! shame tho....

thread over ha

"

Indeed 'some' parents aren't to blame... 'some' parents are... and 'some' parents are just one of many contributing factors.

To what degree would you say the behaviour of these parents could have had in influencing these boys (assuming there is no genetic prefrontal cortex dysfunction) ... theoretically of course?

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By *adchickCouple
over a year ago

Cyprus


"if they haven't got any form of mental condition you'll instantly lay the blame at the parents?

so there is no such thing as being influenced by outside stimuli, environment and society having its say in shaping and transforming behaviour?

the blame wont just be put on parents these days, as there is simply more to it than that to be honest. psyche evaluation is always the way to go....

sometimes parents aren't to blame, but its easier to in the end! shame tho....

thread over ha

are you a paid psychotherapist/ psychologist or in your third semester studying it?"

I learnt child behavioural idiocyncrasies in my second year, the first time I went to uni.

But no one has all the answers.

You can throw as much psychology into this debate as you like, but it still won't lead us away from the fact that right or wrong, the parents need to take the majority of the blame here. After all, the mother is a known drug addict.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

right so lets say once they examine their brains snd there is an abnormality what happens then?? medication? lobotomy? they are obviously functionin at a good level if from readin the press reports, they knew they were doin wrong with the "we havent killed them" statement. add to this the home enviroment etc is it rehabilitation or what?? xx

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo


"if they haven't got any form of mental condition you'll instantly lay the blame at the parents?

so there is no such thing as being influenced by outside stimuli, environment and society having its say in shaping and transforming behaviour?

the blame wont just be put on parents these days, as there is simply more to it than that to be honest. psyche evaluation is always the way to go....

sometimes parents aren't to blame, but its easier to in the end! shame tho....

thread over ha

"

Yes. In this case I would put the blame at how the children were brought up...or dragged up.

It isn't the childrens fault they had parents who neglected them, but it also isn't anyone else's fault that the parents treated them the way they did.

But the influence came from their parents by what has been reported.

We can all blame the media, telly, computer games, the internet......but the kids only get to see what their parents allow.

And nope, thread isn't over

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We could argue this till the cows come home and not one of us will have all the answers.

My only hope in all this is...

Parents should now be held somewhat responsible for their childrens actions and be punished along with said kids.

And that said governments start listening to the masses when it comes to sentencing criminals.

I know....its a dream but we have to have our dreams dont we.......

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By *adchickCouple
over a year ago

Cyprus


"We could argue this till the cows come home and not one of us will have all the answers.

My only hope in all this is...

Parents should now be held somewhat responsible for their childrens actions and be punished along with said kids.

And that said governments start listening to the masses when it comes to sentencing criminals.

I know....its a dream but we have to have our dreams dont we.......

"

I echo every sentiment in that sensible post........

but just to add, lets hope that the authorities listen when they get a cry for help in the future.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

This thread is getting too long.....do us a favour Madchick, start part 2 with your post you just posted?

Thanks in advance

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