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"Interesting topic in The Spectator about how ethical or not the behavioural science and nudge techniques used in Govt Comms around Covid have been. In particular the following caught my eye (as it is relevant to behaviour seen in these forums)... “Meanwhile, the shaming and scapegoating of those deemed to be non-compliers has inevitably created minority outgroups (the unvaccinated, for example) that others feel empowered to vilify and verbally abuse.“ Also... “...three particular interventions during the pandemic raise major ethical concerns: fear inflation, equating compliance with virtue and the encouragement of peer pressure to conform. The use of these covert psychological strategies infringe the basic ethical principles of psychological practice.“ " And what about the unvaccinated berating the vaccinated for doing so ? It works both ways  | |||
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"Interesting topic in The Spectator about how ethical or not the behavioural science and nudge techniques used in Govt Comms around Covid have been. In particular the following caught my eye (as it is relevant to behaviour seen in these forums)... “Meanwhile, the shaming and scapegoating of those deemed to be non-compliers has inevitably created minority outgroups (the unvaccinated, for example) that others feel empowered to vilify and verbally abuse.“ Also... “...three particular interventions during the pandemic raise major ethical concerns: fear inflation, equating compliance with virtue and the encouragement of peer pressure to conform. The use of these covert psychological strategies infringe the basic ethical principles of psychological practice.“ And what about the unvaccinated berating the vaccinated for doing so ? It works both ways "There are those unvaccinated who choose to berate the vaccinated for doing so…. But experience tells me, and a quick look round the forums confirms, the majority of non vaccinated appear quite happy for others to vaccinate or not. I’m unvaccinated and care not what you do. The voice from the vaccinated appears louder in most cases with the same messages the OPs article describes. While the article is just that… how would you feel if you realised one day you’d been manipulated, your thoughts weren’t your own you were just subjected to a series of messages which were designed to make you ‘believe’? | |||
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"Isn't all marketing really just the same idea, planting a notion/image in our minds that if only we buy x, y or z we'll be smarter, handsomer and happier." Everyone in this section of the forum would be well advised to read Laura Doddsworth's "State of Fear". We've been played like fiddles for two years. The worst thing is, now the government have a taste for it, they will no doubt use similar techniques in the future. So much for democracy eh. | |||
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" And what about the unvaccinated berating the vaccinated for doing so ? It works both ways "The antivax lot are not our elected government. There's a world of difference. | |||
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"Interesting topic in The Spectator about how ethical or not the behavioural science and nudge techniques used in Govt Comms around Covid have been. In particular the following caught my eye (as it is relevant to behaviour seen in these forums)... “Meanwhile, the shaming and scapegoating of those deemed to be non-compliers has inevitably created minority outgroups (the unvaccinated, for example) that others feel empowered to vilify and verbally abuse.“ Also... “...three particular interventions during the pandemic raise major ethical concerns: fear inflation, equating compliance with virtue and the encouragement of peer pressure to conform. The use of these covert psychological strategies infringe the basic ethical principles of psychological practice.“ " The Spectator have essentially described pretty much the playbook of any social engineering system. You could for example, frame the whole article around pretty much most world religions and it would apply. You could apply most of it to product marketing campaigns. Heck, you could describe the battle for offspring #1 to eat their dinner "...three particular interventions during the parenting event raise major ethical concerns: fear inflation (If you don't want dinner you will go hungry), equating compliance with virtue (Offspring #2 has eaten theirs) and the encouragement of peer pressure to conform (Because we're your parents and this is our job). The use of these covert psychological strategies infringe the basic ethical principles of psychological practice." In summary, there is no great exposé here in my view. Do bears poop in the woods ? Yes. Do they have to ? Yes. | |||
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"Interesting topic in The Spectator about how ethical or not the behavioural science and nudge techniques used in Govt Comms around Covid have been. In particular the following caught my eye (as it is relevant to behaviour seen in these forums)... “Meanwhile, the shaming and scapegoating of those deemed to be non-compliers has inevitably created minority outgroups (the unvaccinated, for example) that others feel empowered to vilify and verbally abuse.“ Also... “...three particular interventions during the pandemic raise major ethical concerns: fear inflation, equating compliance with virtue and the encouragement of peer pressure to conform. The use of these covert psychological strategies infringe the basic ethical principles of psychological practice.“ The Spectator have essentially described pretty much the playbook of any social engineering system. You could for example, frame the whole article around pretty much most world religions and it would apply. You could apply most of it to product marketing campaigns. Heck, you could describe the battle for offspring #1 to eat their dinner "...three particular interventions during the parenting event raise major ethical concerns: fear inflation (If you don't want dinner you will go hungry), equating compliance with virtue (Offspring #2 has eaten theirs) and the encouragement of peer pressure to conform (Because we're your parents and this is our job). The use of these covert psychological strategies infringe the basic ethical principles of psychological practice." In summary, there is no great exposé here in my view. Do bears poop in the woods ? Yes. Do they have to ? Yes. " Are psychologists ethically empowered to attempt to steer public behaviours at the behest of elected governments? Is such a behest a valid government activity? Does society want this to be the case? Are we, as your edit suggests, children that should be parented by our politicians? | |||
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"Isn't all marketing really just the same idea, planting a notion/image in our minds that if only we buy x, y or z we'll be smarter, handsomer and happier." Not really. The difference is that consumer marketing almost universally focuses on the positive attributes of a product and the benefits to the individual/consumer. This is the polar opposite of the main thrust of the Govt comms around Covid that has been to focus on the negative and social norming, helping to vilify those who question the narrative or do not conform. The irony is that one of the specific campaigns called out is the “look them in the eye” advertising. Personally I would love to see these photoshopped with an addition to the headline saying “Boris Johnson (or Prime Minister) and staff of No.10, look her in the eye and tell her you never bend the rules”. The hypocrisy is simply unbelievable. | |||
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"Interesting topic in The Spectator about how ethical or not the behavioural science and nudge techniques used in Govt Comms around Covid have been. In particular the following caught my eye (as it is relevant to behaviour seen in these forums)... “Meanwhile, the shaming and scapegoating of those deemed to be non-compliers has inevitably created minority outgroups (the unvaccinated, for example) that others feel empowered to vilify and verbally abuse.“ Also... “...three particular interventions during the pandemic raise major ethical concerns: fear inflation, equating compliance with virtue and the encouragement of peer pressure to conform. The use of these covert psychological strategies infringe the basic ethical principles of psychological practice.“ The Spectator have essentially described pretty much the playbook of any social engineering system. You could for example, frame the whole article around pretty much most world religions and it would apply. You could apply most of it to product marketing campaigns. Heck, you could describe the battle for offspring #1 to eat their dinner "...three particular interventions during the parenting event raise major ethical concerns: fear inflation (If you don't want dinner you will go hungry), equating compliance with virtue (Offspring #2 has eaten theirs) and the encouragement of peer pressure to conform (Because we're your parents and this is our job). The use of these covert psychological strategies infringe the basic ethical principles of psychological practice." In summary, there is no great exposé here in my view. Do bears poop in the woods ? Yes. Do they have to ? Yes. " You couldn’t apply it to “most product marketing campaigns”. As I said above, advertising at consumers almost universally focuses on positive benefits and outcomes. The intention is to make you feel good about the desire for and purchase of the product. The approach the Govt has taken to comms around Covid has been almost exclusively focused on the negative and the threat of a negative outcome for you but increasingly for others | |||
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" Are psychologists ethically empowered to attempt to steer public behaviours at the behest of elected governments? " I don't know if they are already ethically empowered to do so. Should they be ? Yes, absolutely. Should there be an oversight committee to ensure they exercise this responsibility ethically ? yes of course. " Is such a behest a valid government activity? " Yes. It's part of governance. " Does society want this to be the case? Are we, as your edit suggests, children that should be parented by our politicians? " Yes. We elect others to make decisions for us. By refraining from the choice to become politicians ourselves, we give manifest and tacit control to others. Those that don't like it, can either vote the present mob out at the very least, or join a political party and get involved in core politics if they are that passionate. | |||
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" Is such a behest a valid government activity? Yes. It's part of governance. Does society want this to be the case? Are we, as your edit suggests, children that should be parented by our politicians? Yes. We elect others to make decisions for us. By refraining from the choice to become politicians ourselves, we give manifest and tacit control to others. Those that don't like it, can either vote the present mob out at the very least, or join a political party and get involved in core politics if they are that passionate. " Jesus Christ 
It's a wind up isn't it | |||
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"'Your country needs you'.. Women handing out white feathers etc.. It's nothing new and goes back a long way, just has a unit now with a career path to be part of such things.." True. | |||
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" Jesus Christ
It's a wind up isn't it "In what way ? Let's look at the real basics, and this applies to whether we're talking about a group of neanderthals or citizens in the common era, and pretty much everything in between. 1. Someone has to be a leader 2. Leader has to provide direction/meaning/safety/whatever 3. Followers need to comply toward goal 4. Hopefully their needs are satisfied. Number 3, getting the followers to comply is the tricky bit, because not everyone is motivated by the same things. Some are motivated by money. Some by duty. Some by appealing to their sense of fairness and or justice. Some are motivated by fear. Others by FOMO. Heck, when you get down the individual motivations, the amount of effort needed to motivate each individual in a way tailored to them is impossible to implement. So you have to use broad strokes. That's nothing unusual. And I think most people would understand this. There are always going to be "extreme outliers" who will resent any form of "governance", but there are the exception to the norm. What then, is precisely the "wind up" ? That we choose/allow/permit/elect/endure people to govern us, like we have done since time immemorial ? Thank you for the thought-provoking thread. Very interesting. | |||
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" You couldn’t apply it to “most product marketing campaigns”. As I said above, advertising at consumers almost universally focuses on positive benefits and outcomes. The intention is to make you feel good about the desire for and purchase of the product. The approach the Govt has taken to comms around Covid has been almost exclusively focused on the negative and the threat of a negative outcome for you but increasingly for others" I'm not so sure a lot of the new breed of marketing professionals would agree. The 20-30 something's I tend to speak to in the marketing arena are very tech-savvy and there is a massive focus on big data, lifestyle habits, economic status, social integration, education, career, etc etc etc. Algorithms, predictive behaviour. And once they have that data, their core goal is how to "nudge" you in to making the decision they want you to make. That they are paid to achieve. Going back to the main point, "Nudging" boils down to 3 techniques. 1. Fear 2. Uncertainty 3. Doubt Here's is the new Widget. It's lovely. All your friends have it. It's aspirational. All very +'ve and fluffy. Cue nice music. Everybody wants one. You don't want to be left behind do you ? You don't want your older model to suffer obsolescence do you ? Will your Widget even work in 2 years ? The new model is much shinier and faster. Treat yourself. You deserve it. Go on, be a devil
FUD is at the heart of every decision we as humans make. It's how things get done and the wheels turn. | |||
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"Virus is gone GET OVER IT " Easier said than done, if people are infected with it  | |||
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"Virus is gone GET OVER IT Easier said than done, if people are infected with it "Surely they will get over it though. | |||
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"Virus is gone GET OVER IT Easier said than done, if people are infected with it "For the majority of people, having to isolate is more of an inconvenience than having Covid. Everyone I know who has had it this year said they were up and about, and it was no worse than a bad cold. Flu season is coming to an end. People are looking forward to spring. | |||
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"The virus hasn't gone and with that kind of thought process who knows what comes next. My partner is currently down with covid and its certainly not a cold and I'm just hoping that a trip to the hospital won't be needed." It sure is, a member of my staff came down with it over the weekend and is quite poorly. Hope your partner shakes it off quickly. | |||
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"The virus hasn't gone and with that kind of thought process who knows what comes next. My partner is currently down with covid and its certainly not a cold and I'm just hoping that a trip to the hospital won't be needed." I know a couple of people who have recently been very ill with covid. I wouldn't be surprised if they had Delta, it seems to have been forgotten about but it is still around. I hope you partner, makes a speedy recovery | |||
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"The virus hasn't gone and with that kind of thought process who knows what comes next. My partner is currently down with covid and its certainly not a cold and I'm just hoping that a trip to the hospital won't be needed. I know a couple of people who have recently been very ill with covid. I wouldn't be surprised if they had Delta, it seems to have been forgotten about but it is still around. I hope you partner, makes a speedy recovery "Virtually zero cases of delta, a few but not many, still getting a few alpha cases. It's pretty safe to say anyone catching covid now has omicron. It could be the BA.2 sub variant which is starting to increase. | |||
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" You couldn’t apply it to “most product marketing campaigns”. As I said above, advertising at consumers almost universally focuses on positive benefits and outcomes. The intention is to make you feel good about the desire for and purchase of the product. The approach the Govt has taken to comms around Covid has been almost exclusively focused on the negative and the threat of a negative outcome for you but increasingly for others I'm not so sure a lot of the new breed of marketing professionals would agree. The 20-30 something's I tend to speak to in the marketing arena are very tech-savvy and there is a massive focus on big data, lifestyle habits, economic status, social integration, education, career, etc etc etc. Algorithms, predictive behaviour. And once they have that data, their core goal is how to "nudge" you in to making the decision they want you to make. That they are paid to achieve. Going back to the main point, "Nudging" boils down to 3 techniques. 1. Fear 2. Uncertainty 3. Doubt Here's is the new Widget. It's lovely. All your friends have it. It's aspirational. All very +'ve and fluffy. Cue nice music. Everybody wants one. You don't want to be left behind do you ? You don't want your older model to suffer obsolescence do you ? Will your Widget even work in 2 years ? The new model is much shinier and faster. Treat yourself. You deserve it. Go on, be a devil
FUD is at the heart of every decision we as humans make. It's how things get done and the wheels turn."I have worked in/with programmatic advertising (and predictive analytics) for some time. Everything you say is correct but I do not think it quite applies here. Even the “nudge” approaches you describe tend to universally be more on the positive side or FOMO. It still focuses on the benefit to you as an individual rather than the collective/society. FOMO is not the same as fear of harm to others or implied (actually even explicit) assigned guilt. The FOMO you describe is still rooted in a positive (ie get the same latest gadget as your mates so you too can unlock the benefits and enjoyment) rather than, if you don’t have it then you are responsible for people dying. I think it is quite different! | |||
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"Interesting topic in The Spectator about how ethical or not the behavioural science and nudge techniques used in Govt Comms around Covid have been. In particular the following caught my eye (as it is relevant to behaviour seen in these forums)... “Meanwhile, the shaming and scapegoating of those deemed to be non-compliers has inevitably created minority outgroups (the unvaccinated, for example) that others feel empowered to vilify and verbally abuse.“ Also... “...three particular interventions during the pandemic raise major ethical concerns: fear inflation, equating compliance with virtue and the encouragement of peer pressure to conform. The use of these covert psychological strategies infringe the basic ethical principles of psychological practice.“ And what about the unvaccinated berating the vaccinated for doing so ? It works both ways
There are those unvaccinated who choose to berate the vaccinated for doing so…. But experience tells me, and a quick look round the forums confirms, the majority of non vaccinated appear quite happy for others to vaccinate or not. I’m unvaccinated and care not what you do. The voice from the vaccinated appears louder in most cases with the same messages the OPs article describes.
While the article is just that… how would you feel if you realised one day you’d been manipulated, your thoughts weren’t your own you were just subjected to a series of messages which were designed to make you ‘believe’? " | |||
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" You couldn’t apply it to “most product marketing campaigns”. As I said above, advertising at consumers almost universally focuses on positive benefits and outcomes. The intention is to make you feel good about the desire for and purchase of the product. The approach the Govt has taken to comms around Covid has been almost exclusively focused on the negative and the threat of a negative outcome for you but increasingly for others I'm not so sure a lot of the new breed of marketing professionals would agree. The 20-30 something's I tend to speak to in the marketing arena are very tech-savvy and there is a massive focus on big data, lifestyle habits, economic status, social integration, education, career, etc etc etc. Algorithms, predictive behaviour. And once they have that data, their core goal is how to "nudge" you in to making the decision they want you to make. That they are paid to achieve. Going back to the main point, "Nudging" boils down to 3 techniques. 1. Fear 2. Uncertainty 3. Doubt Here's is the new Widget. It's lovely. All your friends have it. It's aspirational. All very +'ve and fluffy. Cue nice music. Everybody wants one. You don't want to be left behind do you ? You don't want your older model to suffer obsolescence do you ? Will your Widget even work in 2 years ? The new model is much shinier and faster. Treat yourself. You deserve it. Go on, be a devil
FUD is at the heart of every decision we as humans make. It's how things get done and the wheels turn.
I have worked in/with programmatic advertising (and predictive analytics) for some time. Everything you say is correct but I do not think it quite applies here.
Even the “nudge” approaches you describe tend to universally be more on the positive side or FOMO. It still focuses on the benefit to you as an individual rather than the collective/society. FOMO is not the same as fear of harm to others or implied (actually even explicit) assigned guilt.
The FOMO you describe is still rooted in a positive (ie get the same latest gadget as your mates so you too can unlock the benefits and enjoyment) rather than, if you don’t have it then you are responsible for people dying.
I think it is quite different!"The radio advert urging parents to get their teenage kids jabbed "so they don't miss out" was a beauty. No pretence of any clinical reasons. Just..."you don't want to be the parent that let's your kids miss out on stuff do you?"...no other substance was apparently needed by any advertising standards. Having said all the above. We aren't the brightest bunch of populations to manipulate. | |||
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"The virus hasn't gone and with that kind of thought process who knows what comes next. My partner is currently down with covid and its certainly not a cold and I'm just hoping that a trip to the hospital won't be needed." Is he vaccinated? | |||
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"The virus hasn't gone and with that kind of thought process who knows what comes next. My partner is currently down with covid and its certainly not a cold and I'm just hoping that a trip to the hospital won't be needed. Is he vaccinated?" Of course...I would hate to think what he would be like if he wasn't. | |||
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"The virus hasn't gone and with that kind of thought process who knows what comes next. My partner is currently down with covid and its certainly not a cold and I'm just hoping that a trip to the hospital won't be needed. Is he vaccinated? Of course...I would hate to think what he would be like if he wasn't." How do you know it would be worse if he was unvaccinated? | |||
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"The virus hasn't gone and with that kind of thought process who knows what comes next. My partner is currently down with covid and its certainly not a cold and I'm just hoping that a trip to the hospital won't be needed. Is he vaccinated? Of course...I would hate to think what he would be like if he wasn't. How do you know it would be worse if he was unvaccinated?" sorry to but in, it is likelihood.... | |||
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"The virus hasn't gone and with that kind of thought process who knows what comes next. My partner is currently down with covid and its certainly not a cold and I'm just hoping that a trip to the hospital won't be needed. Is he vaccinated? Of course...I would hate to think what he would be like if he wasn't. How do you know it would be worse if he was unvaccinated? sorry to but in, it is likelihood.... " ?? | |||
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"The virus hasn't gone and with that kind of thought process who knows what comes next. My partner is currently down with covid and its certainly not a cold and I'm just hoping that a trip to the hospital won't be needed. Is he vaccinated? Of course...I would hate to think what he would be like if he wasn't. How do you know it would be worse if he was unvaccinated?" Because I have a brain | |||
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"Interesting topic in The Spectator about how ethical or not the behavioural science and nudge techniques used in Govt Comms around Covid have been. In particular the following caught my eye (as it is relevant to behaviour seen in these forums)... “Meanwhile, the shaming and scapegoating of those deemed to be non-compliers has inevitably created minority outgroups (the unvaccinated, for example) that others feel empowered to vilify and verbally abuse.“ Also... “...three particular interventions during the pandemic raise major ethical concerns: fear inflation, equating compliance with virtue and the encouragement of peer pressure to conform. The use of these covert psychological strategies infringe the basic ethical principles of psychological practice.“ " Spi-b psychological operations to brainwash and promote fake virtue. | |||
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"Interesting topic in The Spectator about how ethical or not the behavioural science and nudge techniques used in Govt Comms around Covid have been. In particular the following caught my eye (as it is relevant to behaviour seen in these forums)... “Meanwhile, the shaming and scapegoating of those deemed to be non-compliers has inevitably created minority outgroups (the unvaccinated, for example) that others feel empowered to vilify and verbally abuse.“ Also... “...three particular interventions during the pandemic raise major ethical concerns: fear inflation, equating compliance with virtue and the encouragement of peer pressure to conform. The use of these covert psychological strategies infringe the basic ethical principles of psychological practice.“ And what about the unvaccinated berating the vaccinated for doing so ? It works both ways "On fringe forums. Like to see that going on in someone's places of work. The invaded will be keeping their mouths shut while their colleagues are slagging off anti-vaxers left right and centre as they are the majority and virtuous. | |||
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"Interesting comments made about the polarisation of opinion in nearly all facets of public discourse. I am sure there used to be a time when such polarisation was rare and the extreme beliefs at either end of a subject under discussion were minimal and marginal. It seems more than ever nowadays that there is little room for middle ground anymore, and scarce time is devoted to appreciating more than one side of an issue. You've gotta choose quick and you've gotta to choose right, and vilify the opposition. It's quite disheartening really. " Just casting ones mind back to historical examples: Abolition of sl@very Votes for women Anything to do with possible Communism The Black Shirts & Oswald Moseley Equal pay for women and men The miner's strikes The Poll tax Margaret Thatcher Student tuition fees The Iraq War Brexit I think polarisation has been a fixture of our political system for centuries. The greater participation in the democratic process by all adults over 18 and a greater ability to read news 24/7 has possibly amplified things, but at the heart of it, I don't think polarisation is a new thing. | |||
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"The virus hasn't gone and with that kind of thought process who knows what comes next. My partner is currently down with covid and its certainly not a cold and I'm just hoping that a trip to the hospital won't be needed. Is he vaccinated? Of course...I would hate to think what he would be like if he wasn't. How do you know it would be worse if he was unvaccinated? Because I have a brain" | |||
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"The virus hasn't gone and with that kind of thought process who knows what comes next. My partner is currently down with covid and its certainly not a cold and I'm just hoping that a trip to the hospital won't be needed. Is he vaccinated? Of course...I would hate to think what he would be like if he wasn't. How do you know it would be worse if he was unvaccinated? Because I have a brain" I have to word this response carefully in case it gets taken out of context. Are you sure (he would be worse if he was unvaccinated?)? | |||
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"The antivax lot are not our elected government. There's a world of difference. " Thank god we still have some people left in our world who dare think differently from our government | |||
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"Because I have a brain" All be it a programmed one or possibly re-programmed no definitely just programmed | |||
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"Interesting comments made about the polarisation of opinion in nearly all facets of public discourse. I am sure there used to be a time when such polarisation was rare and the extreme beliefs at either end of a subject under discussion were minimal and marginal. It seems more than ever nowadays that there is little room for middle ground anymore, and scarce time is devoted to appreciating more than one side of an issue. You've gotta choose quick and you've gotta to choose right, and vilify the opposition. It's quite disheartening really. " If you have Netflix watch the documentary The Social Dilemma | |||
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"Has a civilised discussion broken out? " Bogoff stirrer  | |||
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"Because I have a brain All be it a programmed one or possibly re-programmed no definitely just programmed "No just a working one | |||
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