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"Remember when the US funding gain-of-function research was a conspiracy theory? Yeah, me too. Turns out the mask is slipping … turns out the blame doesn’t entirely fall at the feet of China but our own western leaders. " Ooooo another day another conspiracy ... | |||
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"Remember when the US funding gain-of-function research was a conspiracy theory? Yeah, me too. Turns out the mask is slipping … turns out the blame doesn’t entirely fall at the feet of China but our own western leaders. " Go and wash your mouth out with soap! Western leaders, scientists and medical professionals are beyond reproach and would never do anything bad. | |||
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"Remember when the US funding gain-of-function research was a conspiracy theory? Yeah, me too. Turns out the mask is slipping … turns out the blame doesn’t entirely fall at the feet of China but our own western leaders. Ooooo another day another conspiracy ... " Ooooo another day, more cognitive dissonance in the fab virus forum | |||
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"What new facts are known? Facts??  "documents released today you will find all over the internet. I can’t post a link as I will be banned | |||
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"What new facts are known? Facts?? "To be fair, there has to be a first time with some of this latest crop.. | |||
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"What new facts are known? Facts??
documents released today you will find all over the internet. I can’t post a link as I will be banned "I see, why will you get banned? so this is the latest theory , why are all the others now wrong ? | |||
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"What new facts are known? Facts??
documents released today you will find all over the internet. I can’t post a link as I will be banned "What a crock | |||
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"What new facts are known? Facts??
documents released today you will find all over the internet. I can’t post a link as I will be banned
What a crock "Crock? | |||
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"What new facts are known? Facts??
documents released today you will find all over the internet. I can’t post a link as I will be banned "No if they are links to legitimate articles I dont think admins will ban for that, they havent done so in the past | |||
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"Covid deniers and antivaxers don’t need facts "I’m neither | |||
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"Covid deniers and antivaxers don’t need facts
I’m neither "Have you have the vaccine ? I have had 3, 2 x AZ and Pfizer booster | |||
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"What new facts are known? Facts??
documents released today you will find all over the internet. I can’t post a link as I will be banned
What a crock
Crock? "What do you actually add to the forums Apart from not understanding anything ? | |||
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"What new facts are known? Facts??
documents released today you will find all over the internet. I can’t post a link as I will be banned
What a crock
Crock?
What do you actually add to the forums
Apart from not understanding anything ?"Are you ok Mr Hazard? | |||
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"What new facts are known? Facts??
documents released today you will find all over the internet. I can’t post a link as I will be banned
What a crock
Crock?
What do you actually add to the forums
Apart from not understanding anything ?
Are you ok Mr Hazard? "Fine thanks | |||
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"What new facts are known? Facts??
documents released today you will find all over the internet. I can’t post a link as I will be banned
What a crock
Crock?
What do you actually add to the forums
Apart from not understanding anything ?
Are you ok Mr Hazard?
Fine thanks " | |||
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"Covid deniers and antivaxers don’t need facts
I’m neither
Have you have the vaccine ? I have had 3, 2 x AZ and Pfizer booster "Because no matter how many vaccines you've had in the past, not having this SPECIFIC one means your anti vax Like people who drink all sorts of different alcohol but don't like whiskey are teetotal | |||
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"Covid deniers and antivaxers don’t need facts
I’m neither
Have you have the vaccine ? I have had 3, 2 x AZ and Pfizer booster "Covid Deniers to not always equal anti vaxxers! Anti vaxxers do not always equal everyone who has chosen (so far) to not have the vaccine(s)! While the venn diagram does have crossover, those three circles do not fully overlay. People really need to stop conflating all these groups as it really isn’t that black & white. | |||
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"Covid deniers and antivaxers don’t need facts
I’m neither
Have you have the vaccine ? I have had 3, 2 x AZ and Pfizer booster
Because no matter how many vaccines you've had in the past, not having this SPECIFIC one means your anti vax
Like people who drink all sorts of different alcohol but don't like whiskey are teetotal
"Where did I say that? I am not expecting him to answer the question tbh | |||
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"Covid deniers and antivaxers don’t need facts
I’m neither
Have you have the vaccine ? I have had 3, 2 x AZ and Pfizer booster
Covid Deniers to not always equal anti vaxxers!
Anti vaxxers do not always equal everyone who has chosen (so far) to not have the vaccine(s)!
While the venn diagram does have crossover, those three circles do not fully overlay.
People really need to stop conflating all these groups as it really isn’t that black & white."Tbh, the point of my question was to clarify wether the person in question has had the vaccine and if not I was going to ask why ? I totally respect if he doesn’t want to answer | |||
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"What new facts are known? Facts??
documents released today you will find all over the internet. I can’t post a link as I will be banned "You can post links if they are a legitimate news site, so no to ladsbible and buzz feed, yes to the guardian, sky news and even the sun etc. | |||
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"What new facts are known? Facts??
documents released today you will find all over the internet. I can’t post a link as I will be banned
You can post links if they are a legitimate news site, so no to ladsbible and buzz feed, yes to the guardian, sky news and even the sun etc."
Plus government sites | |||
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"Remember when the US funding gain-of-function research was a conspiracy theory? Yeah, me too. Turns out the mask is slipping … turns out the blame doesn’t entirely fall at the feet of China but our own western leaders. " Coronavirus’s like Covid are more than capable of adapting and mutating in multiple species. Look at how many species are already serologically converting to Covid and omicron has developed the ability to bind to mice/ Turkey/ chicken ACE receptors. They are also plenty other coronavirus’s in horseshoe bats( including in the U.K.) which have zoonotic potential-and far more pathogenic than Covid. https://www.uea.ac.uk/news/-/article/novel-coronavirus-discovered-in-british-bats Honestly we have been probably dodging this pandemic for decades- it was inevitable that there would be a zoonotic spillover. Check out these hot zone ( spillover events) maps for coronavirus’s - surprisingly a lot closer to home than you think. https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/22456392/coronavirus-pandemic-bats-forests-spillover-china-indonesia I think we actually need to give this virus a way more respect than it’s is receiving so far- it really has the potential to be even far more dangerous because of its wide species pool. Let’s not get distracted by this ‘dead cat’ of GOF, Coronavirus’s do not need a lab to evolve to become more pathogenic/ transmissible. | |||
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"What new facts are known? Facts??
documents released today you will find all over the internet. I can’t post a link as I will be banned
You can post links if they are a legitimate news site, so no to ladsbible and buzz feed, yes to the guardian, sky news and even the sun etc."Very dangerous precedent indeed | |||
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"Coronavirus’s do not need a lab to evolve to become more pathogenic/ transmissible. " And yet there it was... | |||
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"Covid deniers and antivaxers don’t need facts
I’m neither
Have you have the vaccine ? I have had 3, 2 x AZ and Pfizer booster "lol what sort of person flexes about how many vaccines they’ve had hilarious | |||
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"Covid deniers and antivaxers don’t need facts
I’m neither
Have you have the vaccine ? I have had 3, 2 x AZ and Pfizer booster
lol what sort of person flexes about how many vaccines they’ve had hilarious "I am not flexing, just stating that I am not scared or ashamed to admit my vaccine status, | |||
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"What new facts are known? Facts??
documents released today you will find all over the internet. I can’t post a link as I will be banned
You can post links if they are a legitimate news site, so no to ladsbible and buzz feed, yes to the guardian, sky news and even the sun etc.
Very dangerous precedent indeed "Why is it a dangerous precedent? Post shit get banned, seems legit to me | |||
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"What new facts are known? Facts??
documents released today you will find all over the internet. I can’t post a link as I will be banned
You can post links if they are a legitimate news site, so no to ladsbible and buzz feed, yes to the guardian, sky news and even the sun etc.
Very dangerous precedent indeed
Why is it a dangerous precedent? Post shit get banned, seems legit to me "This By the way of the only news you follow is bbc sky news mainstream puppet media then i suggest you do some thinking What about Edward snowden What about Julian assange? Certain stories would never see the light of day if not for independent whistle blowers or independent journalists … | |||
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"What new facts are known? Facts??
documents released today you will find all over the internet. I can’t post a link as I will be banned
You can post links if they are a legitimate news site, so no to ladsbible and buzz feed, yes to the guardian, sky news and even the sun etc.
Very dangerous precedent indeed
Why is it a dangerous precedent? Post shit get banned, seems legit to me "You get banned for linking to scientific journals too though, so tread cautiously! | |||
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"What new facts are known? Facts??
documents released today you will find all over the internet. I can’t post a link as I will be banned
You can post links if they are a legitimate news site, so no to ladsbible and buzz feed, yes to the guardian, sky news and even the sun etc.
Very dangerous precedent indeed
Why is it a dangerous precedent? Post shit get banned, seems legit to me
This
By the way of the only news you follow is bbc sky news mainstream puppet media then i suggest you do some thinking
What about Edward snowden
What about Julian assange?
Certain stories would never see the light of day if not for independent whistle blowers or independent journalists …"Your bound by the rules set on this site, if you don’t like them then go elsewhere , | |||
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"What new facts are known? Facts??
documents released today you will find all over the internet. I can’t post a link as I will be banned
You can post links if they are a legitimate news site, so no to ladsbible and buzz feed, yes to the guardian, sky news and even the sun etc.
Very dangerous precedent indeed
Why is it a dangerous precedent? Post shit get banned, seems legit to me
This
By the way of the only news you follow is bbc sky news mainstream puppet media then i suggest you do some thinking
What about Edward snowden
What about Julian assange?
Certain stories would never see the light of day if not for independent whistle blowers or independent journalists …
Your bound by the rules set on this site, if you don’t like them then go elsewhere , "Lol ok… mr look how many vaccines iv had | |||
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"What new facts are known? Facts??
documents released today you will find all over the internet. I can’t post a link as I will be banned
You can post links if they are a legitimate news site, so no to ladsbible and buzz feed, yes to the guardian, sky news and even the sun etc.
Very dangerous precedent indeed
Why is it a dangerous precedent? Post shit get banned, seems legit to me
This
By the way of the only news you follow is bbc sky news mainstream puppet media then i suggest you do some thinking
What about Edward snowden
What about Julian assange?
Certain stories would never see the light of day if not for independent whistle blowers or independent journalists …
Your bound by the rules set on this site, if you don’t like them then go elsewhere ,
Lol ok… mr look how many vaccines iv had "I have had 3, and I am not too scared or ashamed to admit it, | |||
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"What new facts are known? Facts??
documents released today you will find all over the internet. I can’t post a link as I will be banned
You can post links if they are a legitimate news site, so no to ladsbible and buzz feed, yes to the guardian, sky news and even the sun etc.
Very dangerous precedent indeed
Why is it a dangerous precedent? Post shit get banned, seems legit to me
This
By the way of the only news you follow is bbc sky news mainstream puppet media then i suggest you do some thinking
What about Edward snowden
What about Julian assange?
Certain stories would never see the light of day if not for independent whistle blowers or independent journalists …"There's no need to insult the intelligence of other people on fab,I think at this stage everyone is aware of the "alternative" views and many of us have figured out the majority of it is garbage but your entitled to follow whichever agenda you wish | |||
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"Remember when the US funding gain-of-function research was a conspiracy theory? Yeah, me too. Turns out the mask is slipping … turns out the blame doesn’t entirely fall at the feet of China but our own western leaders. Go and wash your mouth out with soap! Western leaders, scientists and medical professionals are beyond reproach and would never do anything bad. " do you really believe that got to laugh at you you think borris cared about us when he was partying it up no way | |||
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"Remember when the US funding gain-of-function research was a conspiracy theory? Yeah, me too. Turns out the mask is slipping … turns out the blame doesn’t entirely fall at the feet of China but our own western leaders. Go and wash your mouth out with soap! Western leaders, scientists and medical professionals are beyond reproach and would never do anything bad. " . Medical professionals as in ?? | |||
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"Covid deniers and antivaxers don’t need facts
I’m neither
Have you have the vaccine ? I have had 3, 2 x AZ and Pfizer booster
Covid Deniers to not always equal anti vaxxers!
Anti vaxxers do not always equal everyone who has chosen (so far) to not have the vaccine(s)!
While the venn diagram does have crossover, those three circles do not fully overlay.
People really need to stop conflating all these groups as it really isn’t that black & white.
Tbh, the point of my question was to clarify wether the person in question has had the vaccine and if not I was going to ask why ? I totally respect if he doesn’t want to answer "What has someone's thoughts on where the virus came from got to do with their vaccine status? I think Kennedy was killed by more than one gunman, I'd still take a drive in a convertible through dealey plaza. | |||
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"Remember when the US funding gain-of-function research was a conspiracy theory? Yeah, me too. Turns out the mask is slipping … turns out the blame doesn’t entirely fall at the feet of China but our own western leaders. Go and wash your mouth out with soap! Western leaders, scientists and medical professionals are beyond reproach and would never do anything bad. " Please take my comment above with a large dose of sarcasm. | |||
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"So, a novel coronavirus pops up in the city where a level 4 lab with a history of safety concerns which just so happens to be partaking in gain of function research with said coronaviruses yet anyone who suggests that might be a bit fishy is branded a tin foil hat wearing loon? I've been sceptical from the start when the initial concerns came to light about the labs safety record. As for it being present in animals, it has also infected deer population in certain American states. Doesn't mean that its bambi's fault." | |||
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"This is an ongoing story of Senator Paul Rand attacking Fauci over gain of function funding. Fauci is saying the senator doesn't know the true meaning of gain of function and he is rattling a cage for a conspiracy theory. I don't have enough understanding on the subject to know who is right or wrong, I mean who does..... " Rand Paul is an ophthalmologist, an eye surgeon, his conspiracy has been going on for over 18 months. He thinks he's qualified to take on one of the World's best expert in Pandemic with baseless crap over funding given to China's Wuhan lab to study bat virus and threats in the field. He is full of crap, with the stuff he's spouted in support of Trump. Trump wanted Fauci finished, this idiot it trying to do it for him. The man's a danger to science and the USA. America paying China to develop a virus that can be used in warfare, really! | |||
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"So, a novel coronavirus pops up in the city where a level 4 lab with a history of safety concerns which just so happens to be partaking in gain of function research with said coronaviruses yet anyone who suggests that might be a bit fishy is branded a tin foil hat wearing loon? I've been sceptical from the start when the initial concerns came to light about the labs safety record. As for it being present in animals, it has also infected deer population in certain American states. Doesn't mean that its bambi's fault." ---------------------------- Although I believe we will never actually know the exact origins of the virus, it is also worth considering the flipside of your argument : A novel coronavirus pops up in the city where a level 4 lab, has been established to investigate a strain or corona virus prevalent in the local bat population. It is theorised that the strain of virus being studied has crossed the species gap. The theory about the virus jumping across species is reinforced by reports of the virus also being found in cats and deer. The idea that the virus has originated from the lab rather than the environment is not even viewed as a conspiracy. It was stringently investigated by the WHO, who concluded that "it’s highly unlikely that the coronavirus escaped from a lab at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. Most scientists say that evidence overwhelmingly favours SARS-CoV-2 having spilled over from animals into humans." Cal | |||
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"What new facts are known? Facts??
documents released today you will find all over the internet. I can’t post a link as I will be banned
You can post links if they are a legitimate news site, so no to ladsbible and buzz feed, yes to the guardian, sky news and even the sun etc."The Sun? You must be kidding. | |||
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" The man's a danger to science and the USA. America paying China to develop a virus that can be used in warfare, really!" You couldn't make it up. Ooops sorry that's wrong, someone obviously did. | |||
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"Remember when the US funding gain-of-function research was a conspiracy theory? Yeah, me too. Turns out the mask is slipping … turns out the blame doesn’t entirely fall at the feet of China but our own western leaders. " Could you explain what this is please? | |||
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"Covid deniers and antivaxers don’t need facts
I’m neither
Have you have the vaccine ? I have had 3, 2 x AZ and Pfizer booster
Covid Deniers to not always equal anti vaxxers!
Anti vaxxers do not always equal everyone who has chosen (so far) to not have the vaccine(s)!
While the venn diagram does have crossover, those three circles do not fully overlay.
People really need to stop conflating all these groups as it really isn’t that black & white.
Tbh, the point of my question was to clarify wether the person in question has had the vaccine and if not I was going to ask why ? I totally respect if he doesn’t want to answer "I don’t think your going to get an answer on that one, silence speaks volumes | |||
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"Remember when the US funding gain-of-function research was a conspiracy theory? Yeah, me too. Turns out the mask is slipping … turns out the blame doesn’t entirely fall at the feet of China but our own western leaders. Could you explain what this is please?" Biological warfare is taking a pathogen from its natural environment or from a different host (pig, bird or bat for example), then modify it to produce a weapon of mass destruction. Ideally a selective pathogen such that if you chose, you could kill different ethnic heritage depending on your choice by DNA. "Gain of Function" is the term making the function of killing more effective by increasing its Gain to infect a higher number. Like Myxomatosis in rabbits, it's selective so if released into the wild, it kills only rabbits (mostly). Having euthanized 100s if very sick rabbits during an outbreak within the population at work many years ago, it is a horrible and painful death. When a virus jumps from a species adapted to it to a naive host, and has been extensively studied for this reason. The virus was intentionally introduced in Australia, France, and Chile in the 1950s to control wild European rabbit populations. Although I strongly believe that COVID unintentionally escaped from a Wuhan Lab, I do not believe it was either deliberately done nor was it any Function of Gain and certainly not funded by USA. China is a future adversary to America and the West, so why would America support them in developing a biological weapon. | |||
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"So, a novel coronavirus pops up in the city where a level 4 lab with a history of safety concerns which just so happens to be partaking in gain of function research with said coronaviruses yet anyone who suggests that might be a bit fishy is branded a tin foil hat wearing loon? I've been sceptical from the start when the initial concerns came to light about the labs safety record. As for it being present in animals, it has also infected deer population in certain American states. Doesn't mean that its bambi's fault. ---------------------------- Although I believe we will never actually know the exact origins of the virus, it is also worth considering the flipside of your argument : A novel coronavirus pops up in the city where a level 4 lab, has been established to investigate a strain or corona virus prevalent in the local bat population. It is theorised that the strain of virus being studied has crossed the species gap. The theory about the virus jumping across species is reinforced by reports of the virus also being found in cats and deer. The idea that the virus has originated from the lab rather than the environment is not even viewed as a conspiracy. It was stringently investigated by the WHO, who concluded that "it’s highly unlikely that the coronavirus escaped from a lab at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. Most scientists say that evidence overwhelmingly favours SARS-CoV-2 having spilled over from animals into humans." Cal" An investigation done by the WHO, in China, carried out by Chinese representatives. I'm sure none of them feared for their lives at all if they reported anything other than what the Chinese government narrative is. Its not like China has a history of making problematic whistleblowers, dissenters or anyone else dissappear is it. Oh wait, it happens all the time and that's not including their "re-education" camps. In short, I have zero faith in any investigation carried out by the WHO in China and frankly I can't blame the investigators if they did tow the line. | |||
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"Remember when the US funding gain-of-function research was a conspiracy theory? Yeah, me too. Turns out the mask is slipping … turns out the blame doesn’t entirely fall at the feet of China but our own western leaders. Could you explain what this is please? Biological warfare is taking a pathogen from its natural environment or from a different host (pig, bird or bat for example), then modify it to produce a weapon of mass destruction. Ideally a selective pathogen such that if you chose, you could kill different ethnic heritage depending on your choice by DNA. "Gain of Function" is the term making the function of killing more effective by increasing its Gain to infect a higher number. Like Myxomatosis in rabbits, it's selective so if released into the wild, it kills only rabbits (mostly). Having euthanized 100s if very sick rabbits during an outbreak within the population at work many years ago, it is a horrible and painful death. When a virus jumps from a species adapted to it to a naive host, and has been extensively studied for this reason. The virus was intentionally introduced in Australia, France, and Chile in the 1950s to control wild European rabbit populations. Although I strongly believe that COVID unintentionally escaped from a Wuhan Lab, I do not believe it was either deliberately done nor was it any Function of Gain and certainly not funded by USA. China is a future adversary to America and the West, so why would America support them in developing a biological weapon." Thanks for that | |||
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"So, a novel coronavirus pops up in the city where a level 4 lab with a history of safety concerns which just so happens to be partaking in gain of function research with said coronaviruses yet anyone who suggests that might be a bit fishy is branded a tin foil hat wearing loon? I've been sceptical from the start when the initial concerns came to light about the labs safety record. As for it being present in animals, it has also infected deer population in certain American states. Doesn't mean that its bambi's fault. ---------------------------- Although I believe we will never actually know the exact origins of the virus, it is also worth considering the flipside of your argument : A novel coronavirus pops up in the city where a level 4 lab, has been established to investigate a strain or corona virus prevalent in the local bat population. It is theorised that the strain of virus being studied has crossed the species gap. The theory about the virus jumping across species is reinforced by reports of the virus also being found in cats and deer. The idea that the virus has originated from the lab rather than the environment is not even viewed as a conspiracy. It was stringently investigated by the WHO, who concluded that "it’s highly unlikely that the coronavirus escaped from a lab at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. Most scientists say that evidence overwhelmingly favours SARS-CoV-2 having spilled over from animals into humans." CalAn investigation done by the WHO, in China, carried out by Chinese representatives. I'm sure none of them feared for their lives at all if they reported anything other than what the Chinese government narrative is. Its not like China has a history of making problematic whistleblowers, dissenters or anyone else dissappear is it. Oh wait, it happens all the time and that's not including their "re-education" camps. In short, I have zero faith in any investigation carried out by the WHO in China and frankly I can't blame the investigators if they did tow the line." It's so often the case that people who have a bias will refuse to believe that anything else could be true... just look at Trump, still claiming that the election that he lost was a fix. The Team of independent Scientists hired by the WHO to investigate the Wuhan Lab were from various European Labs and lead by a Danish guy. The WHO and the Chinese government have not been on good terms since the 2003 SARS outbreak, so it seems unlikely that they would be willing to "hide the truth". On the other hand though, China were reportedly not massively cooperative in the investigation. The investigation concluded that there was "no evidence" to support the outbreak starting in the lab, which is different to proving that it definitely didn't. Their opinion was that it "most likely" that the virus evolved naturally from bats and quite possibly via another animal. Ultimately, by the time the investigation happened it was really too late to find much actual evidence. There are plenty of scientists who do still support the idea that the virus originated in the lab, but almost zero support for it being man made. Cal | |||
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"So, a novel coronavirus pops up in the city where a level 4 lab with a history of safety concerns which just so happens to be partaking in gain of function research with said coronaviruses yet anyone who suggests that might be a bit fishy is branded a tin foil hat wearing loon? I've been sceptical from the start when the initial concerns came to light about the labs safety record. As for it being present in animals, it has also infected deer population in certain American states. Doesn't mean that its bambi's fault. ---------------------------- Although I believe we will never actually know the exact origins of the virus, it is also worth considering the flipside of your argument : A novel coronavirus pops up in the city where a level 4 lab, has been established to investigate a strain or corona virus prevalent in the local bat population. It is theorised that the strain of virus being studied has crossed the species gap. The theory about the virus jumping across species is reinforced by reports of the virus also being found in cats and deer. The idea that the virus has originated from the lab rather than the environment is not even viewed as a conspiracy. It was stringently investigated by the WHO, who concluded that "it’s highly unlikely that the coronavirus escaped from a lab at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. Most scientists say that evidence overwhelmingly favours SARS-CoV-2 having spilled over from animals into humans." CalAn investigation done by the WHO, in China, carried out by Chinese representatives. I'm sure none of them feared for their lives at all if they reported anything other than what the Chinese government narrative is. Its not like China has a history of making problematic whistleblowers, dissenters or anyone else dissappear is it. Oh wait, it happens all the time and that's not including their "re-education" camps. In short, I have zero faith in any investigation carried out by the WHO in China and frankly I can't blame the investigators if they did tow the line. It's so often the case that people who have a bias will refuse to believe that anything else could be true... just look at Trump, still claiming that the election that he lost was a fix. The Team of independent Scientists hired by the WHO to investigate the Wuhan Lab were from various European Labs and lead by a Danish guy. The WHO and the Chinese government have not been on good terms since the 2003 SARS outbreak, so it seems unlikely that they would be willing to "hide the truth". On the other hand though, China were reportedly not massively cooperative in the investigation. The investigation concluded that there was "no evidence" to support the outbreak starting in the lab, which is different to proving that it definitely didn't. Their opinion was that it "most likely" that the virus evolved naturally from bats and quite possibly via another animal. Ultimately, by the time the investigation happened it was really too late to find much actual evidence. There are plenty of scientists who do still support the idea that the virus originated in the lab, but almost zero support for it being man made. Cal" The Telegraph recently reported that emails have surfaced from early 2020 from people like Fauci discussing the very high probability that Covid-19 was accidentally leaked from the lab in Wuhan. These emails also included agreement to suppress that information for the sake of international relations and to keep China onside while they tackled the Pandemic. | |||
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"So, a novel coronavirus pops up in the city where a level 4 lab with a history of safety concerns which just so happens to be partaking in gain of function research with said coronaviruses yet anyone who suggests that might be a bit fishy is branded a tin foil hat wearing loon? I've been sceptical from the start when the initial concerns came to light about the labs safety record. As for it being present in animals, it has also infected deer population in certain American states. Doesn't mean that its bambi's fault. ---------------------------- Although I believe we will never actually know the exact origins of the virus, it is also worth considering the flipside of your argument : A novel coronavirus pops up in the city where a level 4 lab, has been established to investigate a strain or corona virus prevalent in the local bat population. It is theorised that the strain of virus being studied has crossed the species gap. The theory about the virus jumping across species is reinforced by reports of the virus also being found in cats and deer. The idea that the virus has originated from the lab rather than the environment is not even viewed as a conspiracy. It was stringently investigated by the WHO, who concluded that "it’s highly unlikely that the coronavirus escaped from a lab at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. Most scientists say that evidence overwhelmingly favours SARS-CoV-2 having spilled over from animals into humans." Cal -------- An investigation done by the WHO, in China, carried out by Chinese representatives. I'm sure none of them feared for their lives at all if they reported anything other than what the Chinese government narrative is. Its not like China has a history of making problematic whistleblowers, dissenters or anyone else dissappear is it. Oh wait, it happens all the time and that's not including their "re-education" camps. In short, I have zero faith in any investigation carried out by the WHO in China and frankly I can't blame the investigators if they did tow the line. ----- It's so often the case that people who have a bias will refuse to believe that anything else could be true... just look at Trump, still claiming that the election that he lost was a fix. The Team of independent Scientists hired by the WHO to investigate the Wuhan Lab were from various European Labs and lead by a Danish guy. The WHO and the Chinese government have not been on good terms since the 2003 SARS outbreak, so it seems unlikely that they would be willing to "hide the truth". On the other hand though, China were reportedly not massively cooperative in the investigation. The investigation concluded that there was "no evidence" to support the outbreak starting in the lab, which is different to proving that it definitely didn't. Their opinion was that it "most likely" that the virus evolved naturally from bats and quite possibly via another animal. Ultimately, by the time the investigation happened it was really too late to find much actual evidence. There are plenty of scientists who do still support the idea that the virus originated in the lab, but almost zero support for it being man made. Cal ----- The Telegraph recently reported that emails have surfaced from early 2020 from people like Fauci discussing the very high probability that Covid-19 was accidentally leaked from the lab in Wuhan. These emails also included agreement to suppress that information for the sake of international relations and to keep China onside while they tackled the Pandemic." One of the issues with unverified "leaked" emails is that it is impossible to know if they're genuine or not. Even if they are genuine though, as with the WHO report, it's all speculation. The claims are that Fauci thought that it was possible and that it would be unhelpful for that possiblity to be verified. Fauci does not have any sway with the WHO though, so he's not influenced thir investigation. As I said previously: it is possible that it was an accidental leak but unprovable. The WHO decided it was unlikely, but not impossible. If it did originate from the Lab, it's likely that anyone who actually knows the truth has "disappeared" by now. We will never know the truth. Cal | |||
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"So, a novel coronavirus pops up in the city where a level 4 lab with a history of safety concerns which just so happens to be partaking in gain of function research with said coronaviruses yet anyone who suggests that might be a bit fishy is branded a tin foil hat wearing loon? I've been sceptical from the start when the initial concerns came to light about the labs safety record. As for it being present in animals, it has also infected deer population in certain American states. Doesn't mean that its bambi's fault. ---------------------------- Although I believe we will never actually know the exact origins of the virus, it is also worth considering the flipside of your argument : A novel coronavirus pops up in the city where a level 4 lab, has been established to investigate a strain or corona virus prevalent in the local bat population. It is theorised that the strain of virus being studied has crossed the species gap. The theory about the virus jumping across species is reinforced by reports of the virus also being found in cats and deer. The idea that the virus has originated from the lab rather than the environment is not even viewed as a conspiracy. It was stringently investigated by the WHO, who concluded that "it’s highly unlikely that the coronavirus escaped from a lab at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. Most scientists say that evidence overwhelmingly favours SARS-CoV-2 having spilled over from animals into humans." Cal -------- An investigation done by the WHO, in China, carried out by Chinese representatives. I'm sure none of them feared for their lives at all if they reported anything other than what the Chinese government narrative is. Its not like China has a history of making problematic whistleblowers, dissenters or anyone else dissappear is it. Oh wait, it happens all the time and that's not including their "re-education" camps. In short, I have zero faith in any investigation carried out by the WHO in China and frankly I can't blame the investigators if they did tow the line. ----- It's so often the case that people who have a bias will refuse to believe that anything else could be true... just look at Trump, still claiming that the election that he lost was a fix. The Team of independent Scientists hired by the WHO to investigate the Wuhan Lab were from various European Labs and lead by a Danish guy. The WHO and the Chinese government have not been on good terms since the 2003 SARS outbreak, so it seems unlikely that they would be willing to "hide the truth". On the other hand though, China were reportedly not massively cooperative in the investigation. The investigation concluded that there was "no evidence" to support the outbreak starting in the lab, which is different to proving that it definitely didn't. Their opinion was that it "most likely" that the virus evolved naturally from bats and quite possibly via another animal. Ultimately, by the time the investigation happened it was really too late to find much actual evidence. There are plenty of scientists who do still support the idea that the virus originated in the lab, but almost zero support for it being man made. Cal ----- The Telegraph recently reported that emails have surfaced from early 2020 from people like Fauci discussing the very high probability that Covid-19 was accidentally leaked from the lab in Wuhan. These emails also included agreement to suppress that information for the sake of international relations and to keep China onside while they tackled the Pandemic. One of the issues with unverified "leaked" emails is that it is impossible to know if they're genuine or not. Even if they are genuine though, as with the WHO report, it's all speculation. The claims are that Fauci thought that it was possible and that it would be unhelpful for that possiblity to be verified. Fauci does not have any sway with the WHO though, so he's not influenced thir investigation. As I said previously: it is possible that it was an accidental leak but unprovable. The WHO decided it was unlikely, but not impossible. If it did originate from the Lab, it's likely that anyone who actually knows the truth has "disappeared" by now. We will never know the truth. Cal" One scientist who was talking way back in early 2020 has definitely disappeared. Distinctly remember reading about her. I would say the WHO investigation was hampered/inept at best and a whitewash at worst. It was well over a year later and was not a unannounced spot check. Clearly nobody can prove either way but the way the Chinese behave and their secrecy plus suppression of their own people, will nonetheless make people suspicious. No smoke without fire and all that. | |||
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"Where's my tin foil hat?" I doubt if anyone will ever know. | |||
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"What new facts are known? Facts??
documents released today you will find all over the internet. I can’t post a link as I will be banned
No if they are links to legitimate articles I dont think admins will ban for that, they havent done so in the past"I was banned for posting links to ONS, PHE, government and official clinical trial websites. | |||
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"What new facts are known? Facts??
documents released today you will find all over the internet. I can’t post a link as I will be banned
No if they are links to legitimate articles I dont think admins will ban for that, they havent done so in the past
I was banned for posting links to ONS, PHE, government and official clinical trial websites. "You didn't. the link you posted was not on the allowed list. It isn't fair to imply you did nothing wrong to get your ban and it isn't allowed to discuss bans on the forum | |||
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"What new facts are known? Facts??
documents released today you will find all over the internet. I can’t post a link as I will be banned
No if they are links to legitimate articles I dont think admins will ban for that, they havent done so in the past
I was banned for posting links to ONS, PHE, government and official clinical trial websites.
You didn't. the link you posted was not on the allowed list. It isn't fair to imply you did nothing wrong to get your ban and it isn't allowed to discuss bans on the forum"No idea which link but ok | |||
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"Remember when the US funding gain-of-function research was a conspiracy theory? Yeah, me too. Turns out the mask is slipping … turns out the blame doesn’t entirely fall at the feet of China but our own western leaders. " The US government paid China to develop a bioweapon? Sure | |||
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"So, a novel coronavirus pops up in the city where a level 4 lab with a history of safety concerns which just so happens to be partaking in gain of function research with said coronaviruses yet anyone who suggests that might be a bit fishy is branded a tin foil hat wearing loon? I've been sceptical from the start when the initial concerns came to light about the labs safety record. As for it being present in animals, it has also infected deer population in certain American states. Doesn't mean that its bambi's fault. ---------------------------- Although I believe we will never actually know the exact origins of the virus, it is also worth considering the flipside of your argument : A novel coronavirus pops up in the city where a level 4 lab, has been established to investigate a strain or corona virus prevalent in the local bat population. It is theorised that the strain of virus being studied has crossed the species gap. The theory about the virus jumping across species is reinforced by reports of the virus also being found in cats and deer. The idea that the virus has originated from the lab rather than the environment is not even viewed as a conspiracy. It was stringently investigated by the WHO, who concluded that "it’s highly unlikely that the coronavirus escaped from a lab at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. Most scientists say that evidence overwhelmingly favours SARS-CoV-2 having spilled over from animals into humans." Cal -------- An investigation done by the WHO, in China, carried out by Chinese representatives. I'm sure none of them feared for their lives at all if they reported anything other than what the Chinese government narrative is. Its not like China has a history of making problematic whistleblowers, dissenters or anyone else dissappear is it. Oh wait, it happens all the time and that's not including their "re-education" camps. In short, I have zero faith in any investigation carried out by the WHO in China and frankly I can't blame the investigators if they did tow the line. ----- It's so often the case that people who have a bias will refuse to believe that anything else could be true... just look at Trump, still claiming that the election that he lost was a fix. The Team of independent Scientists hired by the WHO to investigate the Wuhan Lab were from various European Labs and lead by a Danish guy. The WHO and the Chinese government have not been on good terms since the 2003 SARS outbreak, so it seems unlikely that they would be willing to "hide the truth". On the other hand though, China were reportedly not massively cooperative in the investigation. The investigation concluded that there was "no evidence" to support the outbreak starting in the lab, which is different to proving that it definitely didn't. Their opinion was that it "most likely" that the virus evolved naturally from bats and quite possibly via another animal. Ultimately, by the time the investigation happened it was really too late to find much actual evidence. There are plenty of scientists who do still support the idea that the virus originated in the lab, but almost zero support for it being man made. Cal ----- The Telegraph recently reported that emails have surfaced from early 2020 from people like Fauci discussing the very high probability that Covid-19 was accidentally leaked from the lab in Wuhan. These emails also included agreement to suppress that information for the sake of international relations and to keep China onside while they tackled the Pandemic. One of the issues with unverified "leaked" emails is that it is impossible to know if they're genuine or not. Even if they are genuine though, as with the WHO report, it's all speculation. The claims are that Fauci thought that it was possible and that it would be unhelpful for that possiblity to be verified. Fauci does not have any sway with the WHO though, so he's not influenced thir investigation. As I said previously: it is possible that it was an accidental leak but unprovable. The WHO decided it was unlikely, but not impossible. If it did originate from the Lab, it's likely that anyone who actually knows the truth has "disappeared" by now. We will never know the truth. Cal One scientist who was talking way back in early 2020 has definitely disappeared. Distinctly remember reading about her. I would say the WHO investigation was hampered/inept at best and a whitewash at worst. It was well over a year later and was not a unannounced spot check. Clearly nobody can prove either way but the way the Chinese behave and their secrecy plus suppression of their own people, will nonetheless make people suspicious. No smoke without fire and all that. " Does that mean that the US paid for China to make the virus more virulent as per the OPs unverifiable assertion? | |||
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"I wouldn't regards The Guardian or Sky as reputable" Guardian yes, sky definitely not. | |||
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"Remember when the US funding gain-of-function research was a conspiracy theory? Yeah, me too. Turns out the mask is slipping … turns out the blame doesn’t entirely fall at the feet of China but our own western leaders. The US government paid China to develop a bioweapon? Sure "People will be claiming the US gave China designs for Nukes next.. | |||
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"What new facts are known? Facts??
documents released today you will find all over the internet. I can’t post a link as I will be banned
No if they are links to legitimate articles I dont think admins will ban for that, they havent done so in the past"If you look at the forum rules it's quite clear only certain sites can be linked to and the OP is absolutely right people have had timeouts for posting links from other sources. | |||
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"So, a novel coronavirus pops up in the city where a level 4 lab with a history of safety concerns which just so happens to be partaking in gain of function research with said coronaviruses yet anyone who suggests that might be a bit fishy is branded a tin foil hat wearing loon? I've been sceptical from the start when the initial concerns came to light about the labs safety record. As for it being present in animals, it has also infected deer population in certain American states. Doesn't mean that its bambi's fault. ---------------------------- Although I believe we will never actually know the exact origins of the virus, it is also worth considering the flipside of your argument : A novel coronavirus pops up in the city where a level 4 lab, has been established to investigate a strain or corona virus prevalent in the local bat population. It is theorised that the strain of virus being studied has crossed the species gap. The theory about the virus jumping across species is reinforced by reports of the virus also being found in cats and deer. The idea that the virus has originated from the lab rather than the environment is not even viewed as a conspiracy. It was stringently investigated by the WHO, who concluded that "it’s highly unlikely that the coronavirus escaped from a lab at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. Most scientists say that evidence overwhelmingly favours SARS-CoV-2 having spilled over from animals into humans." Cal -------- An investigation done by the WHO, in China, carried out by Chinese representatives. I'm sure none of them feared for their lives at all if they reported anything other than what the Chinese government narrative is. Its not like China has a history of making problematic whistleblowers, dissenters or anyone else dissappear is it. Oh wait, it happens all the time and that's not including their "re-education" camps. In short, I have zero faith in any investigation carried out by the WHO in China and frankly I can't blame the investigators if they did tow the line. ----- It's so often the case that people who have a bias will refuse to believe that anything else could be true... just look at Trump, still claiming that the election that he lost was a fix. The Team of independent Scientists hired by the WHO to investigate the Wuhan Lab were from various European Labs and lead by a Danish guy. The WHO and the Chinese government have not been on good terms since the 2003 SARS outbreak, so it seems unlikely that they would be willing to "hide the truth". On the other hand though, China were reportedly not massively cooperative in the investigation. The investigation concluded that there was "no evidence" to support the outbreak starting in the lab, which is different to proving that it definitely didn't. Their opinion was that it "most likely" that the virus evolved naturally from bats and quite possibly via another animal. Ultimately, by the time the investigation happened it was really too late to find much actual evidence. There are plenty of scientists who do still support the idea that the virus originated in the lab, but almost zero support for it being man made. Cal ----- The Telegraph recently reported that emails have surfaced from early 2020 from people like Fauci discussing the very high probability that Covid-19 was accidentally leaked from the lab in Wuhan. These emails also included agreement to suppress that information for the sake of international relations and to keep China onside while they tackled the Pandemic. One of the issues with unverified "leaked" emails is that it is impossible to know if they're genuine or not. Even if they are genuine though, as with the WHO report, it's all speculation. The claims are that Fauci thought that it was possible and that it would be unhelpful for that possiblity to be verified. Fauci does not have any sway with the WHO though, so he's not influenced thir investigation. As I said previously: it is possible that it was an accidental leak but unprovable. The WHO decided it was unlikely, but not impossible. If it did originate from the Lab, it's likely that anyone who actually knows the truth has "disappeared" by now. We will never know the truth. Cal One scientist who was talking way back in early 2020 has definitely disappeared. Distinctly remember reading about her. I would say the WHO investigation was hampered/inept at best and a whitewash at worst. It was well over a year later and was not a unannounced spot check. Clearly nobody can prove either way but the way the Chinese behave and their secrecy plus suppression of their own people, will nonetheless make people suspicious. No smoke without fire and all that. Does that mean that the US paid for China to make the virus more virulent as per the OPs unverifiable assertion?" My first post clearly said... “The Telegraph recently reported that emails have surfaced from early 2020 from people like Fauci discussing the very high probability that Covid-19 was accidentally leaked from the lab in Wuhan.” No reference to a bio weapon. No reference to US paying China. Just a reference to Covid 19 being accidentally leaked (ie not a transfer from animals). | |||
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"So, a novel coronavirus pops up in the city where a level 4 lab with a history of safety concerns which just so happens to be partaking in gain of function research with said coronaviruses yet anyone who suggests that might be a bit fishy is branded a tin foil hat wearing loon? I've been sceptical from the start when the initial concerns came to light about the labs safety record. As for it being present in animals, it has also infected deer population in certain American states. Doesn't mean that its bambi's fault. ---------------------------- Although I believe we will never actually know the exact origins of the virus, it is also worth considering the flipside of your argument : A novel coronavirus pops up in the city where a level 4 lab, has been established to investigate a strain or corona virus prevalent in the local bat population. It is theorised that the strain of virus being studied has crossed the species gap. The theory about the virus jumping across species is reinforced by reports of the virus also being found in cats and deer. The idea that the virus has originated from the lab rather than the environment is not even viewed as a conspiracy. It was stringently investigated by the WHO, who concluded that "it’s highly unlikely that the coronavirus escaped from a lab at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. Most scientists say that evidence overwhelmingly favours SARS-CoV-2 having spilled over from animals into humans." Cal -------- An investigation done by the WHO, in China, carried out by Chinese representatives. I'm sure none of them feared for their lives at all if they reported anything other than what the Chinese government narrative is. Its not like China has a history of making problematic whistleblowers, dissenters or anyone else dissappear is it. Oh wait, it happens all the time and that's not including their "re-education" camps. In short, I have zero faith in any investigation carried out by the WHO in China and frankly I can't blame the investigators if they did tow the line. ----- It's so often the case that people who have a bias will refuse to believe that anything else could be true... just look at Trump, still claiming that the election that he lost was a fix. The Team of independent Scientists hired by the WHO to investigate the Wuhan Lab were from various European Labs and lead by a Danish guy. The WHO and the Chinese government have not been on good terms since the 2003 SARS outbreak, so it seems unlikely that they would be willing to "hide the truth". On the other hand though, China were reportedly not massively cooperative in the investigation. The investigation concluded that there was "no evidence" to support the outbreak starting in the lab, which is different to proving that it definitely didn't. Their opinion was that it "most likely" that the virus evolved naturally from bats and quite possibly via another animal. Ultimately, by the time the investigation happened it was really too late to find much actual evidence. There are plenty of scientists who do still support the idea that the virus originated in the lab, but almost zero support for it being man made. Cal ----- The Telegraph recently reported that emails have surfaced from early 2020 from people like Fauci discussing the very high probability that Covid-19 was accidentally leaked from the lab in Wuhan. These emails also included agreement to suppress that information for the sake of international relations and to keep China onside while they tackled the Pandemic. One of the issues with unverified "leaked" emails is that it is impossible to know if they're genuine or not. Even if they are genuine though, as with the WHO report, it's all speculation. The claims are that Fauci thought that it was possible and that it would be unhelpful for that possiblity to be verified. Fauci does not have any sway with the WHO though, so he's not influenced thir investigation. As I said previously: it is possible that it was an accidental leak but unprovable. The WHO decided it was unlikely, but not impossible. If it did originate from the Lab, it's likely that anyone who actually knows the truth has "disappeared" by now. We will never know the truth. Cal One scientist who was talking way back in early 2020 has definitely disappeared. Distinctly remember reading about her. I would say the WHO investigation was hampered/inept at best and a whitewash at worst. It was well over a year later and was not a unannounced spot check. Clearly nobody can prove either way but the way the Chinese behave and their secrecy plus suppression of their own people, will nonetheless make people suspicious. No smoke without fire and all that. Does that mean that the US paid for China to make the virus more virulent as per the OPs unverifiable assertion? My first post clearly said... “The Telegraph recently reported that emails have surfaced from early 2020 from people like Fauci discussing the very high probability that Covid-19 was accidentally leaked from the lab in Wuhan.” No reference to a bio weapon. No reference to US paying China. Just a reference to Covid 19 being accidentally leaked (ie not a transfer from animals). " Personally, I think the idea of a viral Bio-Weapon is ridiculous. Nobody wants to deploy a weapon that they have no control over, and can't be "targeted". Cal | |||
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"So, a novel coronavirus pops up in the city where a level 4 lab with a history of safety concerns which just so happens to be partaking in gain of function research with said coronaviruses yet anyone who suggests that might be a bit fishy is branded a tin foil hat wearing loon? I've been sceptical from the start when the initial concerns came to light about the labs safety record. As for it being present in animals, it has also infected deer population in certain American states. Doesn't mean that its bambi's fault. ---------------------------- Although I believe we will never actually know the exact origins of the virus, it is also worth considering the flipside of your argument : A novel coronavirus pops up in the city where a level 4 lab, has been established to investigate a strain or corona virus prevalent in the local bat population. It is theorised that the strain of virus being studied has crossed the species gap. The theory about the virus jumping across species is reinforced by reports of the virus also being found in cats and deer. The idea that the virus has originated from the lab rather than the environment is not even viewed as a conspiracy. It was stringently investigated by the WHO, who concluded that "it’s highly unlikely that the coronavirus escaped from a lab at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. Most scientists say that evidence overwhelmingly favours SARS-CoV-2 having spilled over from animals into humans." Cal -------- An investigation done by the WHO, in China, carried out by Chinese representatives. I'm sure none of them feared for their lives at all if they reported anything other than what the Chinese government narrative is. Its not like China has a history of making problematic whistleblowers, dissenters or anyone else dissappear is it. Oh wait, it happens all the time and that's not including their "re-education" camps. In short, I have zero faith in any investigation carried out by the WHO in China and frankly I can't blame the investigators if they did tow the line. ----- It's so often the case that people who have a bias will refuse to believe that anything else could be true... just look at Trump, still claiming that the election that he lost was a fix. The Team of independent Scientists hired by the WHO to investigate the Wuhan Lab were from various European Labs and lead by a Danish guy. The WHO and the Chinese government have not been on good terms since the 2003 SARS outbreak, so it seems unlikely that they would be willing to "hide the truth". On the other hand though, China were reportedly not massively cooperative in the investigation. The investigation concluded that there was "no evidence" to support the outbreak starting in the lab, which is different to proving that it definitely didn't. Their opinion was that it "most likely" that the virus evolved naturally from bats and quite possibly via another animal. Ultimately, by the time the investigation happened it was really too late to find much actual evidence. There are plenty of scientists who do still support the idea that the virus originated in the lab, but almost zero support for it being man made. Cal ----- The Telegraph recently reported that emails have surfaced from early 2020 from people like Fauci discussing the very high probability that Covid-19 was accidentally leaked from the lab in Wuhan. These emails also included agreement to suppress that information for the sake of international relations and to keep China onside while they tackled the Pandemic. One of the issues with unverified "leaked" emails is that it is impossible to know if they're genuine or not. Even if they are genuine though, as with the WHO report, it's all speculation. The claims are that Fauci thought that it was possible and that it would be unhelpful for that possiblity to be verified. Fauci does not have any sway with the WHO though, so he's not influenced thir investigation. As I said previously: it is possible that it was an accidental leak but unprovable. The WHO decided it was unlikely, but not impossible. If it did originate from the Lab, it's likely that anyone who actually knows the truth has "disappeared" by now. We will never know the truth. Cal One scientist who was talking way back in early 2020 has definitely disappeared. Distinctly remember reading about her. I would say the WHO investigation was hampered/inept at best and a whitewash at worst. It was well over a year later and was not a unannounced spot check. Clearly nobody can prove either way but the way the Chinese behave and their secrecy plus suppression of their own people, will nonetheless make people suspicious. No smoke without fire and all that. Does that mean that the US paid for China to make the virus more virulent as per the OPs unverifiable assertion? My first post clearly said... “The Telegraph recently reported that emails have surfaced from early 2020 from people like Fauci discussing the very high probability that Covid-19 was accidentally leaked from the lab in Wuhan.” No reference to a bio weapon. No reference to US paying China. Just a reference to Covid 19 being accidentally leaked (ie not a transfer from animals). " So no reference to the thread OP about gain of function. What are your thoughts on that? Is it credible that the US paid China to do this work or does it sound like a conspiracy theory? Is there and logic or money to follow or is it the "truth" but hidden? | |||
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"So, a novel coronavirus pops up in the city where a level 4 lab with a history of safety concerns which just so happens to be partaking in gain of function research with said coronaviruses yet anyone who suggests that might be a bit fishy is branded a tin foil hat wearing loon? I've been sceptical from the start when the initial concerns came to light about the labs safety record. As for it being present in animals, it has also infected deer population in certain American states. Doesn't mean that its bambi's fault. ---------------------------- Although I believe we will never actually know the exact origins of the virus, it is also worth considering the flipside of your argument : A novel coronavirus pops up in the city where a level 4 lab, has been established to investigate a strain or corona virus prevalent in the local bat population. It is theorised that the strain of virus being studied has crossed the species gap. The theory about the virus jumping across species is reinforced by reports of the virus also being found in cats and deer. The idea that the virus has originated from the lab rather than the environment is not even viewed as a conspiracy. It was stringently investigated by the WHO, who concluded that "it’s highly unlikely that the coronavirus escaped from a lab at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. Most scientists say that evidence overwhelmingly favours SARS-CoV-2 having spilled over from animals into humans." Cal -------- An investigation done by the WHO, in China, carried out by Chinese representatives. I'm sure none of them feared for their lives at all if they reported anything other than what the Chinese government narrative is. Its not like China has a history of making problematic whistleblowers, dissenters or anyone else dissappear is it. Oh wait, it happens all the time and that's not including their "re-education" camps. In short, I have zero faith in any investigation carried out by the WHO in China and frankly I can't blame the investigators if they did tow the line. ----- It's so often the case that people who have a bias will refuse to believe that anything else could be true... just look at Trump, still claiming that the election that he lost was a fix. The Team of independent Scientists hired by the WHO to investigate the Wuhan Lab were from various European Labs and lead by a Danish guy. The WHO and the Chinese government have not been on good terms since the 2003 SARS outbreak, so it seems unlikely that they would be willing to "hide the truth". On the other hand though, China were reportedly not massively cooperative in the investigation. The investigation concluded that there was "no evidence" to support the outbreak starting in the lab, which is different to proving that it definitely didn't. Their opinion was that it "most likely" that the virus evolved naturally from bats and quite possibly via another animal. Ultimately, by the time the investigation happened it was really too late to find much actual evidence. There are plenty of scientists who do still support the idea that the virus originated in the lab, but almost zero support for it being man made. Cal ----- The Telegraph recently reported that emails have surfaced from early 2020 from people like Fauci discussing the very high probability that Covid-19 was accidentally leaked from the lab in Wuhan. These emails also included agreement to suppress that information for the sake of international relations and to keep China onside while they tackled the Pandemic. One of the issues with unverified "leaked" emails is that it is impossible to know if they're genuine or not. Even if they are genuine though, as with the WHO report, it's all speculation. The claims are that Fauci thought that it was possible and that it would be unhelpful for that possiblity to be verified. Fauci does not have any sway with the WHO though, so he's not influenced thir investigation. As I said previously: it is possible that it was an accidental leak but unprovable. The WHO decided it was unlikely, but not impossible. If it did originate from the Lab, it's likely that anyone who actually knows the truth has "disappeared" by now. We will never know the truth. Cal One scientist who was talking way back in early 2020 has definitely disappeared. Distinctly remember reading about her. I would say the WHO investigation was hampered/inept at best and a whitewash at worst. It was well over a year later and was not a unannounced spot check. Clearly nobody can prove either way but the way the Chinese behave and their secrecy plus suppression of their own people, will nonetheless make people suspicious. No smoke without fire and all that. Does that mean that the US paid for China to make the virus more virulent as per the OPs unverifiable assertion? My first post clearly said... “The Telegraph recently reported that emails have surfaced from early 2020 from people like Fauci discussing the very high probability that Covid-19 was accidentally leaked from the lab in Wuhan.” No reference to a bio weapon. No reference to US paying China. Just a reference to Covid 19 being accidentally leaked (ie not a transfer from animals). Personally, I think the idea of a viral Bio-Weapon is ridiculous. Nobody wants to deploy a weapon that they have no control over, and can't be "targeted". Cal" Agreed | |||
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"So, a novel coronavirus pops up in the city where a level 4 lab with a history of safety concerns which just so happens to be partaking in gain of function research with said coronaviruses yet anyone who suggests that might be a bit fishy is branded a tin foil hat wearing loon? I've been sceptical from the start when the initial concerns came to light about the labs safety record. As for it being present in animals, it has also infected deer population in certain American states. Doesn't mean that its bambi's fault. ---------------------------- Although I believe we will never actually know the exact origins of the virus, it is also worth considering the flipside of your argument : A novel coronavirus pops up in the city where a level 4 lab, has been established to investigate a strain or corona virus prevalent in the local bat population. It is theorised that the strain of virus being studied has crossed the species gap. The theory about the virus jumping across species is reinforced by reports of the virus also being found in cats and deer. The idea that the virus has originated from the lab rather than the environment is not even viewed as a conspiracy. It was stringently investigated by the WHO, who concluded that "it’s highly unlikely that the coronavirus escaped from a lab at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. Most scientists say that evidence overwhelmingly favours SARS-CoV-2 having spilled over from animals into humans." Cal -------- An investigation done by the WHO, in China, carried out by Chinese representatives. I'm sure none of them feared for their lives at all if they reported anything other than what the Chinese government narrative is. Its not like China has a history of making problematic whistleblowers, dissenters or anyone else dissappear is it. Oh wait, it happens all the time and that's not including their "re-education" camps. In short, I have zero faith in any investigation carried out by the WHO in China and frankly I can't blame the investigators if they did tow the line. ----- It's so often the case that people who have a bias will refuse to believe that anything else could be true... just look at Trump, still claiming that the election that he lost was a fix. The Team of independent Scientists hired by the WHO to investigate the Wuhan Lab were from various European Labs and lead by a Danish guy. The WHO and the Chinese government have not been on good terms since the 2003 SARS outbreak, so it seems unlikely that they would be willing to "hide the truth". On the other hand though, China were reportedly not massively cooperative in the investigation. The investigation concluded that there was "no evidence" to support the outbreak starting in the lab, which is different to proving that it definitely didn't. Their opinion was that it "most likely" that the virus evolved naturally from bats and quite possibly via another animal. Ultimately, by the time the investigation happened it was really too late to find much actual evidence. There are plenty of scientists who do still support the idea that the virus originated in the lab, but almost zero support for it being man made. Cal ----- The Telegraph recently reported that emails have surfaced from early 2020 from people like Fauci discussing the very high probability that Covid-19 was accidentally leaked from the lab in Wuhan. These emails also included agreement to suppress that information for the sake of international relations and to keep China onside while they tackled the Pandemic. One of the issues with unverified "leaked" emails is that it is impossible to know if they're genuine or not. Even if they are genuine though, as with the WHO report, it's all speculation. The claims are that Fauci thought that it was possible and that it would be unhelpful for that possiblity to be verified. Fauci does not have any sway with the WHO though, so he's not influenced thir investigation. As I said previously: it is possible that it was an accidental leak but unprovable. The WHO decided it was unlikely, but not impossible. If it did originate from the Lab, it's likely that anyone who actually knows the truth has "disappeared" by now. We will never know the truth. Cal One scientist who was talking way back in early 2020 has definitely disappeared. Distinctly remember reading about her. I would say the WHO investigation was hampered/inept at best and a whitewash at worst. It was well over a year later and was not a unannounced spot check. Clearly nobody can prove either way but the way the Chinese behave and their secrecy plus suppression of their own people, will nonetheless make people suspicious. No smoke without fire and all that. Does that mean that the US paid for China to make the virus more virulent as per the OPs unverifiable assertion? My first post clearly said... “The Telegraph recently reported that emails have surfaced from early 2020 from people like Fauci discussing the very high probability that Covid-19 was accidentally leaked from the lab in Wuhan.” No reference to a bio weapon. No reference to US paying China. Just a reference to Covid 19 being accidentally leaked (ie not a transfer from animals). So no reference to the thread OP about gain of function. What are your thoughts on that? Is it credible that the US paid China to do this work or does it sound like a conspiracy theory? Is there and logic or money to follow or is it the "truth" but hidden?" I was responding to Cal who said... “There are plenty of scientists who do still support the idea that the virus originated in the lab, but almost zero support for it being man made.” And the Telegraph article seems to support the leak theory. Will have to reread it but I don’t think it references man made vs natural virus, just the leak. My personal view is that it is plausible the virus is “man made” but not for bio weapon/evil reasons but more from a place of trying to understand and prevent coronaviruses etc. Scientist “tinker” but normally from a place of good intent. I think it is plausible this was created, accidentally leaked through a poor bio hazard regime and got hushed up. There are stories coming out questioning China’s death toll. I saw a figure saying that modelling alone means China’s reported death toll is 17,000% (not a typo, seventeen thousand per cent) too low! I think it is plausible there has been an accident and cover up. But cannot really see the USA paying a lab in China to create a bio weapon. If they wanted to do that they would use own labs or Porton Down in UK. | |||
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"So, a novel coronavirus pops up in the city where a level 4 lab with a history of safety concerns which just so happens to be partaking in gain of function research with said coronaviruses yet anyone who suggests that might be a bit fishy is branded a tin foil hat wearing loon? I've been sceptical from the start when the initial concerns came to light about the labs safety record. As for it being present in animals, it has also infected deer population in certain American states. Doesn't mean that its bambi's fault. ---------------------------- Although I believe we will never actually know the exact origins of the virus, it is also worth considering the flipside of your argument : A novel coronavirus pops up in the city where a level 4 lab, has been established to investigate a strain or corona virus prevalent in the local bat population. It is theorised that the strain of virus being studied has crossed the species gap. The theory about the virus jumping across species is reinforced by reports of the virus also being found in cats and deer. The idea that the virus has originated from the lab rather than the environment is not even viewed as a conspiracy. It was stringently investigated by the WHO, who concluded that "it’s highly unlikely that the coronavirus escaped from a lab at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. Most scientists say that evidence overwhelmingly favours SARS-CoV-2 having spilled over from animals into humans." Cal -------- An investigation done by the WHO, in China, carried out by Chinese representatives. I'm sure none of them feared for their lives at all if they reported anything other than what the Chinese government narrative is. Its not like China has a history of making problematic whistleblowers, dissenters or anyone else dissappear is it. Oh wait, it happens all the time and that's not including their "re-education" camps. In short, I have zero faith in any investigation carried out by the WHO in China and frankly I can't blame the investigators if they did tow the line. ----- It's so often the case that people who have a bias will refuse to believe that anything else could be true... just look at Trump, still claiming that the election that he lost was a fix. The Team of independent Scientists hired by the WHO to investigate the Wuhan Lab were from various European Labs and lead by a Danish guy. The WHO and the Chinese government have not been on good terms since the 2003 SARS outbreak, so it seems unlikely that they would be willing to "hide the truth". On the other hand though, China were reportedly not massively cooperative in the investigation. The investigation concluded that there was "no evidence" to support the outbreak starting in the lab, which is different to proving that it definitely didn't. Their opinion was that it "most likely" that the virus evolved naturally from bats and quite possibly via another animal. Ultimately, by the time the investigation happened it was really too late to find much actual evidence. There are plenty of scientists who do still support the idea that the virus originated in the lab, but almost zero support for it being man made. Cal ----- The Telegraph recently reported that emails have surfaced from early 2020 from people like Fauci discussing the very high probability that Covid-19 was accidentally leaked from the lab in Wuhan. These emails also included agreement to suppress that information for the sake of international relations and to keep China onside while they tackled the Pandemic. One of the issues with unverified "leaked" emails is that it is impossible to know if they're genuine or not. Even if they are genuine though, as with the WHO report, it's all speculation. The claims are that Fauci thought that it was possible and that it would be unhelpful for that possiblity to be verified. Fauci does not have any sway with the WHO though, so he's not influenced thir investigation. As I said previously: it is possible that it was an accidental leak but unprovable. The WHO decided it was unlikely, but not impossible. If it did originate from the Lab, it's likely that anyone who actually knows the truth has "disappeared" by now. We will never know the truth. Cal One scientist who was talking way back in early 2020 has definitely disappeared. Distinctly remember reading about her. I would say the WHO investigation was hampered/inept at best and a whitewash at worst. It was well over a year later and was not a unannounced spot check. Clearly nobody can prove either way but the way the Chinese behave and their secrecy plus suppression of their own people, will nonetheless make people suspicious. No smoke without fire and all that. Does that mean that the US paid for China to make the virus more virulent as per the OPs unverifiable assertion? My first post clearly said... “The Telegraph recently reported that emails have surfaced from early 2020 from people like Fauci discussing the very high probability that Covid-19 was accidentally leaked from the lab in Wuhan.” No reference to a bio weapon. No reference to US paying China. Just a reference to Covid 19 being accidentally leaked (ie not a transfer from animals). So no reference to the thread OP about gain of function. What are your thoughts on that? Is it credible that the US paid China to do this work or does it sound like a conspiracy theory? Is there and logic or money to follow or is it the "truth" but hidden? I was responding to Cal who said... “There are plenty of scientists who do still support the idea that the virus originated in the lab, but almost zero support for it being man made.” And the Telegraph article seems to support the leak theory. Will have to reread it but I don’t think it references man made vs natural virus, just the leak. My personal view is that it is plausible the virus is “man made” but not for bio weapon/evil reasons but more from a place of trying to understand and prevent coronaviruses etc. Scientist “tinker” but normally from a place of good intent. I think it is plausible this was created, accidentally leaked through a poor bio hazard regime and got hushed up. There are stories coming out questioning China’s death toll. I saw a figure saying that modelling alone means China’s reported death toll is 17,000% (not a typo, seventeen thousand per cent) too low! I think it is plausible there has been an accident and cover up. But cannot really see the USA paying a lab in China to create a bio weapon. If they wanted to do that they would use own labs or Porton Down in UK." I would agree that there is an outside chance of an accidental release, but as the WHO team were there, I would take their report (with their caveats) over speculation. Wouldn't you? The Chinese figures for Covid infections and deaths are almost certainly fabricated. However, that is pretty much taken for granted for all Chinese state figures as there is zero transparency. Gain of function as per the OP funded by the US highly unlikely in your view too then. | |||
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"Hmmm you seem quick to trust. The WHO investigation was a year later. Plenty of time to “prep the scene”. The whole “no smoke without fire” and “leopards do not change their spots” thing springs to mind again. You agree that China is untrustworthy with their reporting. So why trust them in this regard?" I have no better information. Neither do you. The WHO sent people that would be the most likely to get what information there was and are perfectly able to judge if they are being misled or under informed. There is also direct work done on the virus itself and the pattern of infection. Hence the caveats in their conclusion. You can read around the topic, or not. Unlikely means unlikely. Not impossible and also not proveable either way. If the only acceptable criteria for medical or scientific statements is absolute certainty, then you will never be able to accept anything. Not even gravity. | |||
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"Hmmm you seem quick to trust. The WHO investigation was a year later. Plenty of time to “prep the scene”. The whole “no smoke without fire” and “leopards do not change their spots” thing springs to mind again. You agree that China is untrustworthy with their reporting. So why trust them in this regard? I have no better information. Neither do you. The WHO sent people that would be the most likely to get what information there was and are perfectly able to judge if they are being misled or under informed. There is also direct work done on the virus itself and the pattern of infection. Hence the caveats in their conclusion. You can read around the topic, or not. Unlikely means unlikely. Not impossible and also not proveable either way. If the only acceptable criteria for medical or scientific statements is absolute certainty, then you will never be able to accept anything. Not even gravity." Of course but then you are no better placed than anyone else to convince me of what I should think either! You asked what I thought and I told you. A lack of evidence is not an admission of guilt or innocence, it is simply a lack of evidence. | |||
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"Hmmm you seem quick to trust. The WHO investigation was a year later. Plenty of time to “prep the scene”. The whole “no smoke without fire” and “leopards do not change their spots” thing springs to mind again. You agree that China is untrustworthy with their reporting. So why trust them in this regard? I have no better information. Neither do you. The WHO sent people that would be the most likely to get what information there was and are perfectly able to judge if they are being misled or under informed. There is also direct work done on the virus itself and the pattern of infection. Hence the caveats in their conclusion. You can read around the topic, or not. Unlikely means unlikely. Not impossible and also not proveable either way. If the only acceptable criteria for medical or scientific statements is absolute certainty, then you will never be able to accept anything. Not even gravity. Of course but then you are no better placed than anyone else to convince me of what I should think either! You asked what I thought and I told you. A lack of evidence is not an admission of guilt or innocence, it is simply a lack of evidence." I am merely asking if those most qualified and with the most information to assess it have come to a conclusion why someone with less knowledge would feel that their conclusion was more reliable. I am interested in the why. I have no interest in trying to "convince" you of anything. | |||
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"Hmmm you seem quick to trust. The WHO investigation was a year later. Plenty of time to “prep the scene”. The whole “no smoke without fire” and “leopards do not change their spots” thing springs to mind again. You agree that China is untrustworthy with their reporting. So why trust them in this regard? I have no better information. Neither do you. The WHO sent people that would be the most likely to get what information there was and are perfectly able to judge if they are being misled or under informed. There is also direct work done on the virus itself and the pattern of infection. Hence the caveats in their conclusion. You can read around the topic, or not. Unlikely means unlikely. Not impossible and also not proveable either way. If the only acceptable criteria for medical or scientific statements is absolute certainty, then you will never be able to accept anything. Not even gravity. Of course but then you are no better placed than anyone else to convince me of what I should think either! You asked what I thought and I told you. A lack of evidence is not an admission of guilt or innocence, it is simply a lack of evidence. I am merely asking if those most qualified and with the most information to assess it have come to a conclusion why someone with less knowledge would feel that their conclusion was more reliable. I am interested in the why. I have no interest in trying to "convince" you of anything." And I have already explained that. You can be as qualified as anything but an investigation a year later that is not an unannounced spot check is not a clean “scene”. Forensic investigators have their evidence questioned on that basis (contaminated etc). There is also a growing body of circumstantial evidence that points in certain directions but cannot be proven (due to the “scene” only being investigated a year later). There is speculation in the part of other experts pointing towards the likelihood of a leak. There is the disappearance of a lead scientist who worked at the Wuhan lab after she revealed information pointing to a leak. And so on and so on. If China always acted in a way that was fully open and transparent then the suspicions may not be there. They don’t so the suspicion remains. | |||
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"Hmmm you seem quick to trust. The WHO investigation was a year later. Plenty of time to “prep the scene”. The whole “no smoke without fire” and “leopards do not change their spots” thing springs to mind again. You agree that China is untrustworthy with their reporting. So why trust them in this regard? I have no better information. Neither do you. The WHO sent people that would be the most likely to get what information there was and are perfectly able to judge if they are being misled or under informed. There is also direct work done on the virus itself and the pattern of infection. Hence the caveats in their conclusion. You can read around the topic, or not. Unlikely means unlikely. Not impossible and also not proveable either way. If the only acceptable criteria for medical or scientific statements is absolute certainty, then you will never be able to accept anything. Not even gravity. Of course but then you are no better placed than anyone else to convince me of what I should think either! You asked what I thought and I told you. A lack of evidence is not an admission of guilt or innocence, it is simply a lack of evidence. I am merely asking if those most qualified and with the most information to assess it have come to a conclusion why someone with less knowledge would feel that their conclusion was more reliable. I am interested in the why. I have no interest in trying to "convince" you of anything. And I have already explained that. You can be as qualified as anything but an investigation a year later that is not an unannounced spot check is not a clean “scene”. Forensic investigators have their evidence questioned on that basis (contaminated etc). There is also a growing body of circumstantial evidence that points in certain directions but cannot be proven (due to the “scene” only being investigated a year later). There is speculation in the part of other experts pointing towards the likelihood of a leak. There is the disappearance of a lead scientist who worked at the Wuhan lab after she revealed information pointing to a leak. And so on and so on. If China always acted in a way that was fully open and transparent then the suspicions may not be there. They don’t so the suspicion remains. " Fine. Whatever information that you have gleaned third or fourth hand and far from the event in time and location is more valuable because you found it. First hand information, even gathered late, by better informed people is less reliable because they are not you. Your data is less reliable than those of the WHO investigators by any measure. It must be. Your opinion remains more reliable than someone else's even if their knowledge and access is better. | |||
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"Hmmm you seem quick to trust. The WHO investigation was a year later. Plenty of time to “prep the scene”. The whole “no smoke without fire” and “leopards do not change their spots” thing springs to mind again. You agree that China is untrustworthy with their reporting. So why trust them in this regard? I have no better information. Neither do you. The WHO sent people that would be the most likely to get what information there was and are perfectly able to judge if they are being misled or under informed. There is also direct work done on the virus itself and the pattern of infection. Hence the caveats in their conclusion. You can read around the topic, or not. Unlikely means unlikely. Not impossible and also not proveable either way. If the only acceptable criteria for medical or scientific statements is absolute certainty, then you will never be able to accept anything. Not even gravity. Of course but then you are no better placed than anyone else to convince me of what I should think either! You asked what I thought and I told you. A lack of evidence is not an admission of guilt or innocence, it is simply a lack of evidence. I am merely asking if those most qualified and with the most information to assess it have come to a conclusion why someone with less knowledge would feel that their conclusion was more reliable. I am interested in the why. I have no interest in trying to "convince" you of anything. And I have already explained that. You can be as qualified as anything but an investigation a year later that is not an unannounced spot check is not a clean “scene”. Forensic investigators have their evidence questioned on that basis (contaminated etc). There is also a growing body of circumstantial evidence that points in certain directions but cannot be proven (due to the “scene” only being investigated a year later). There is speculation in the part of other experts pointing towards the likelihood of a leak. There is the disappearance of a lead scientist who worked at the Wuhan lab after she revealed information pointing to a leak. And so on and so on. If China always acted in a way that was fully open and transparent then the suspicions may not be there. They don’t so the suspicion remains. Fine. Whatever information that you have gleaned third or fourth hand and far from the event in time and location is more valuable because you found it. First hand information, even gathered late, by better informed people is less reliable because they are not you. Your data is less reliable than those of the WHO investigators by any measure. It must be. Your opinion remains more reliable than someone else's even if their knowledge and access is better." Your agenda is becoming clearer by the day 
My “knowledge” is zero but as per what started this latest little chat, there are interesting developments being revealed with the Telegraph point being just the latest. Not my research but clearly someone else’s.
So let’s see if you can provide a straight answer...
Q. Do you believe China gave complete unfettered access to an untampered lab in Wuhan? Yes or No? | |||
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"Hmmm you seem quick to trust. The WHO investigation was a year later. Plenty of time to “prep the scene”. The whole “no smoke without fire” and “leopards do not change their spots” thing springs to mind again. You agree that China is untrustworthy with their reporting. So why trust them in this regard? I have no better information. Neither do you. The WHO sent people that would be the most likely to get what information there was and are perfectly able to judge if they are being misled or under informed. There is also direct work done on the virus itself and the pattern of infection. Hence the caveats in their conclusion. You can read around the topic, or not. Unlikely means unlikely. Not impossible and also not proveable either way. If the only acceptable criteria for medical or scientific statements is absolute certainty, then you will never be able to accept anything. Not even gravity. Of course but then you are no better placed than anyone else to convince me of what I should think either! You asked what I thought and I told you. A lack of evidence is not an admission of guilt or innocence, it is simply a lack of evidence. I am merely asking if those most qualified and with the most information to assess it have come to a conclusion why someone with less knowledge would feel that their conclusion was more reliable. I am interested in the why. I have no interest in trying to "convince" you of anything. And I have already explained that. You can be as qualified as anything but an investigation a year later that is not an unannounced spot check is not a clean “scene”. Forensic investigators have their evidence questioned on that basis (contaminated etc). There is also a growing body of circumstantial evidence that points in certain directions but cannot be proven (due to the “scene” only being investigated a year later). There is speculation in the part of other experts pointing towards the likelihood of a leak. There is the disappearance of a lead scientist who worked at the Wuhan lab after she revealed information pointing to a leak. And so on and so on. If China always acted in a way that was fully open and transparent then the suspicions may not be there. They don’t so the suspicion remains. Fine. Whatever information that you have gleaned third or fourth hand and far from the event in time and location is more valuable because you found it. First hand information, even gathered late, by better informed people is less reliable because they are not you. Your data is less reliable than those of the WHO investigators by any measure. It must be. Your opinion remains more reliable than someone else's even if their knowledge and access is better. Your agenda is becoming clearer by the day
My “knowledge” is zero but as per what started this latest little chat, there are interesting developments being revealed with the Telegraph point being just the latest. Not my research but clearly someone else’s.
So let’s see if you can provide a straight answer...
Q. Do you believe China gave complete unfettered access to an untampered lab in Wuhan? Yes or No?"The fact that you even use the word "agenda" implies some sort of plan to achieve something other than to understand why you place the information that you have above that gathered by a qualified team at the location. Let's offer you the courtesy of answering your question directly without obfuscation and vague implications of "agendas". No, the Chinese authorities will not have provided unfettered access to any data or individuals. However, any and all data and interviews obtained first hand by WHO staff will be of significantly higher quality and validity than any that you or I have access to. They will also be significantly more skilled in assessing what is and is not believable than either you or I. Is that something that you can agree to? | |||
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"Hmmm you seem quick to trust. The WHO investigation was a year later. Plenty of time to “prep the scene”. The whole “no smoke without fire” and “leopards do not change their spots” thing springs to mind again. You agree that China is untrustworthy with their reporting. So why trust them in this regard? I have no better information. Neither do you. The WHO sent people that would be the most likely to get what information there was and are perfectly able to judge if they are being misled or under informed. There is also direct work done on the virus itself and the pattern of infection. Hence the caveats in their conclusion. You can read around the topic, or not. Unlikely means unlikely. Not impossible and also not proveable either way. If the only acceptable criteria for medical or scientific statements is absolute certainty, then you will never be able to accept anything. Not even gravity. Of course but then you are no better placed than anyone else to convince me of what I should think either! You asked what I thought and I told you. A lack of evidence is not an admission of guilt or innocence, it is simply a lack of evidence. I am merely asking if those most qualified and with the most information to assess it have come to a conclusion why someone with less knowledge would feel that their conclusion was more reliable. I am interested in the why. I have no interest in trying to "convince" you of anything. And I have already explained that. You can be as qualified as anything but an investigation a year later that is not an unannounced spot check is not a clean “scene”. Forensic investigators have their evidence questioned on that basis (contaminated etc). There is also a growing body of circumstantial evidence that points in certain directions but cannot be proven (due to the “scene” only being investigated a year later). There is speculation in the part of other experts pointing towards the likelihood of a leak. There is the disappearance of a lead scientist who worked at the Wuhan lab after she revealed information pointing to a leak. And so on and so on. If China always acted in a way that was fully open and transparent then the suspicions may not be there. They don’t so the suspicion remains. Fine. Whatever information that you have gleaned third or fourth hand and far from the event in time and location is more valuable because you found it. First hand information, even gathered late, by better informed people is less reliable because they are not you. Your data is less reliable than those of the WHO investigators by any measure. It must be. Your opinion remains more reliable than someone else's even if their knowledge and access is better. Your agenda is becoming clearer by the day
My “knowledge” is zero but as per what started this latest little chat, there are interesting developments being revealed with the Telegraph point being just the latest. Not my research but clearly someone else’s.
So let’s see if you can provide a straight answer...
Q. Do you believe China gave complete unfettered access to an untampered lab in Wuhan? Yes or No?
The fact that you even use the word "agenda" implies some sort of plan to achieve something other than to understand why you place the information that you have above that gathered by a qualified team at the location.
Let's offer you the courtesy of answering your question directly without obfuscation and vague implications of "agendas".
No, the Chinese authorities will not have provided unfettered access to any data or individuals.
However, any and all data and interviews obtained first hand by WHO staff will be of significantly higher quality and validity than any that you or I have access to. They will also be significantly more skilled in assessing what is and is not believable than either you or I. Is that something that you can agree to?"On your last point yes of course but then I already said that (certainly in relation to myself). I do not indicate that I have any particular knowledge (we have been around this particular merry-go-round before) because if I did, I certainly wouldn’t be revealing it on a swinger website forum! However, like you, I am able to read various credible sources and having absorbed what they are saying and then considering the modus operandi of China wonder whether everything is as it seems. If I was the only person thinking this then that could indeed be a crackpot theory. However, I’m not and that includes some pretty credible people or are they only credible when they agree with your worldview or narrative? | |||
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"Hmmm you seem quick to trust. The WHO investigation was a year later. Plenty of time to “prep the scene”. The whole “no smoke without fire” and “leopards do not change their spots” thing springs to mind again. You agree that China is untrustworthy with their reporting. So why trust them in this regard? I have no better information. Neither do you. The WHO sent people that would be the most likely to get what information there was and are perfectly able to judge if they are being misled or under informed. There is also direct work done on the virus itself and the pattern of infection. Hence the caveats in their conclusion. You can read around the topic, or not. Unlikely means unlikely. Not impossible and also not proveable either way. If the only acceptable criteria for medical or scientific statements is absolute certainty, then you will never be able to accept anything. Not even gravity. Of course but then you are no better placed than anyone else to convince me of what I should think either! You asked what I thought and I told you. A lack of evidence is not an admission of guilt or innocence, it is simply a lack of evidence. I am merely asking if those most qualified and with the most information to assess it have come to a conclusion why someone with less knowledge would feel that their conclusion was more reliable. I am interested in the why. I have no interest in trying to "convince" you of anything. And I have already explained that. You can be as qualified as anything but an investigation a year later that is not an unannounced spot check is not a clean “scene”. Forensic investigators have their evidence questioned on that basis (contaminated etc). There is also a growing body of circumstantial evidence that points in certain directions but cannot be proven (due to the “scene” only being investigated a year later). There is speculation in the part of other experts pointing towards the likelihood of a leak. There is the disappearance of a lead scientist who worked at the Wuhan lab after she revealed information pointing to a leak. And so on and so on. If China always acted in a way that was fully open and transparent then the suspicions may not be there. They don’t so the suspicion remains. Fine. Whatever information that you have gleaned third or fourth hand and far from the event in time and location is more valuable because you found it. First hand information, even gathered late, by better informed people is less reliable because they are not you. Your data is less reliable than those of the WHO investigators by any measure. It must be. Your opinion remains more reliable than someone else's even if their knowledge and access is better. Your agenda is becoming clearer by the day
My “knowledge” is zero but as per what started this latest little chat, there are interesting developments being revealed with the Telegraph point being just the latest. Not my research but clearly someone else’s.
So let’s see if you can provide a straight answer...
Q. Do you believe China gave complete unfettered access to an untampered lab in Wuhan? Yes or No?
The fact that you even use the word "agenda" implies some sort of plan to achieve something other than to understand why you place the information that you have above that gathered by a qualified team at the location.
Let's offer you the courtesy of answering your question directly without obfuscation and vague implications of "agendas".
No, the Chinese authorities will not have provided unfettered access to any data or individuals.
However, any and all data and interviews obtained first hand by WHO staff will be of significantly higher quality and validity than any that you or I have access to. They will also be significantly more skilled in assessing what is and is not believable than either you or I. Is that something that you can agree to?
On your last point yes of course but then I already said that (certainly in relation to myself).
I do not indicate that I have any particular knowledge (we have been around this particular merry-go-round before) because if I did, I certainly wouldn’t be revealing it on a swinger website forum! However, like you, I am able to read various credible sources and having absorbed what they are saying and then considering the modus operandi of China wonder whether everything is as it seems.
If I was the only person thinking this then that could indeed be a crackpot theory. However, I’m not and that includes some pretty credible people or are they only credible when they agree with your worldview or narrative?"So, are the other "credible people" who have not received first hand information or visited the location have better information than those who have? I am trying to understand how you judge what and whom to believe. Not making any accusations or assumptions. That is all. | |||
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"In addition a quote... “The Wuhan lab leak theory is once again gaining traction around the world due to the support of academics and public officials. This theory regained life after Joe Biden’s chief medical adviser Dr Anthony Fauci’s emails were leaked, where he expressed his dissatisfaction with the World Health Organisation’s (WHO) preliminary investigation. This investigation was conducted in January 2021, [note that is over a year after the outbreak] but the WHO investigative team were subject to heavy restrictions which prevented full access to data on over 170 early cases. On top of this, researchers were only given three hours in the Wuhan lab, subsequently reducing the investigations’ full potential.” So yeah very thorough and no pressure or reputational issues for the investigators. I will maintain my healthy scepticism thanks." I have not said that the investigation was by any means perfect or possibly even good. However, infinitely better than anything anyone else has other than the Chinese government. So, if they have the most complete and best analysed data set, the question still remains why you would not just accept the WHO findings. | |||
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"And another... “... in recent months the idea that it emerged from the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) — once dismissed as a ridiculous conspiracy theory — has gained new credence. How and why did this happen? For one, efforts to discover a natural source of the virus have failed. Second, early efforts to spotlight a lab leak often got mixed up with speculation that the virus was deliberately created as a bioweapon. That made it easier for many scientists to dismiss the lab scenario as tin-hat nonsense. But a lack of transparency by China and renewed attention to the activities of the Wuhan lab have led some scientists to say they were too quick to discount a possible link at first.”" This does not change the basic point. Of all the information available to anyone other than the Chinese state, the WHO has the best. Why would you not believe them over anyone with less complete information? | |||
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"In addition a quote... “The Wuhan lab leak theory is once again gaining traction around the world due to the support of academics and public officials. This theory regained life after Joe Biden’s chief medical adviser Dr Anthony Fauci’s emails were leaked, where he expressed his dissatisfaction with the World Health Organisation’s (WHO) preliminary investigation. This investigation was conducted in January 2021, [note that is over a year after the outbreak] but the WHO investigative team were subject to heavy restrictions which prevented full access to data on over 170 early cases. On top of this, researchers were only given three hours in the Wuhan lab, subsequently reducing the investigations’ full potential.” So yeah very thorough and no pressure or reputational issues for the investigators. I will maintain my healthy scepticism thanks. I have not said that the investigation was by any means perfect or possibly even good. However, infinitely better than anything anyone else has other than the Chinese government. So, if they have the most complete and best analysed data set, the question still remains why you would not just accept the WHO findings." You’ve answered your own question. There simply is nothing more to be said, enjoy your trip on the merry-go-round. | |||
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"In addition a quote... “The Wuhan lab leak theory is once again gaining traction around the world due to the support of academics and public officials. This theory regained life after Joe Biden’s chief medical adviser Dr Anthony Fauci’s emails were leaked, where he expressed his dissatisfaction with the World Health Organisation’s (WHO) preliminary investigation. This investigation was conducted in January 2021, [note that is over a year after the outbreak] but the WHO investigative team were subject to heavy restrictions which prevented full access to data on over 170 early cases. On top of this, researchers were only given three hours in the Wuhan lab, subsequently reducing the investigations’ full potential.” So yeah very thorough and no pressure or reputational issues for the investigators. I will maintain my healthy scepticism thanks. I have not said that the investigation was by any means perfect or possibly even good. However, infinitely better than anything anyone else has other than the Chinese government. So, if they have the most complete and best analysed data set, the question still remains why you would not just accept the WHO findings. You’ve answered your own question. There simply is nothing more to be said, enjoy your trip on the merry-go-round." You haven't answered the question though. I know what I think. Never mind if you don't want to. Hate to be accused of having an agenda about hoping for a direct answer. | |||
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