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"[Removed by poster at 05/01/22 10:23:28]" I think people are waking up to this, we need care for the vulnerable and each other but the way we are dealing with covid is starting to make a lot of people ill! Change is needed but I don’t think leaving it in the hands of our government is going to do us any good as it’s the same old same old over and over again. I wish the best for everyone, and think it’s time we went beyond the divisive for or against vaccine viewpoint. | |||
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"You make some fair points but where I struggle is with the blind conviction of the conspiracy theorists in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary of their thinking. I had a guy send me an unsolicited message because of my pro vaccination stance attempting to persuade me that covid was a con. I sarcastically asked him if he believed that man had walked on the moon. He sent me a long rambling message about how that was all faked as well. I assume he spends much of his life searching for 'evidence' that nothing that is generally believed is true. It's these people that I have the biggest problem with. " Those kind of people spend their lives going down rabbit holes following conspiracy theories  | |||
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"Originally posted this in a thread but thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion (or may just be full of tumble ). Either way... The majority (certainly not all) of the ongoing discussion around the safety of the covid vaccines is down to one thing. A lack of trust. Trust in government. Trust in big pharma. And the problem is that govts (and in particular ours in the UK this past two years) and big pharma have serious form for lying, deception, malpractice and corruption. And yet suddenly because of the pandemic we are told they need to be trusted. When you see govt officials flouting the rules, driving to “test their eyes”, not wearing masks, having parties, playing with their mistress etc some people will wonder what they know that we don’t? It feeds the conspiracies. When you see govt corruption that results in the largest transfer of public assets into private hands in history, some people question their motives. When you have the scientists working for pharma tell you their research and testing is totally sound and that they know xyz about efficacy, dosage/frequency etc only to then have this revised at what would appear to be a convenient moment, some people will have doubts. When you see govt “listening to the science” when it suits but ignoring it when it doesn’t (such as 6 week delay to closing border to India), some people will be concerned our leaders do not really have our best interests at heart. When you see govt pushing legislation through that severely damages/limits our rights, or seeking to change the electoral system in such a way that it only benefits those already in power and doing so during a global public health emergency (ie people are distracted), the some people will be worried about where this is all leading. Trust is very hard to earn (although going by some on here that statement seems completely wrong) and very easy to lose. I have said it many times on here (getting boring I am sure) but always follow the money. While I actually do have confidence the vaccines work (but am bitterly disappointed they don’t work as well as we were told by those we are supposed to trust) I am very sceptical about some of the motives driving policy. There is so much money involved that a public health emergency creates the perfect situation for the corrupt to exploit for their own gain (and we know for fact they did around PPE, LFTs, and other med supplies). The pandemic is a disaster capitalist’s and corrupt opportunist’s wet dream. That makes motives questionable and trust continually gets eroded." Untill it became popular big pharma were just drug developers and makers.no different in bussiness to apple ,tesla ,bmw etc If you dont like them dont take ANY drugs. I,m alive because of so callsx big pharma and thank fuck . | |||
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"If you dont like them dont take ANY drugs. I,m alive because of so callsx big pharma and thank fuck ." I think you're missing the point here. The thread is about being open to questioning things and looking at the bigger picture If the questions can be answered satisfactorily they will become less of a concern Being sceptical is healthy..being cynical is not | |||
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"You make some fair points but where I struggle is with the blind conviction of the conspiracy theorists in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary of their thinking. I had a guy send me an unsolicited message because of my pro vaccination stance attempting to persuade me that covid was a con. I sarcastically asked him if he believed that man had walked on the moon. He sent me a long rambling message about how that was all faked as well. I assume he spends much of his life searching for 'evidence' that nothing that is generally believed is true. It's these people that I have the biggest problem with. " Conspiracy theorists actually believe what they are saying and are as vocal about it as those that can see the holes in their views. The internet makes a perfect place for amplification, meanwhile in the real world I'm lucky to not know 1 person who holds the views of the conspiracy theorists. For once the real world wins | |||
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"You make some fair points but where I struggle is with the blind conviction of the conspiracy theorists in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary of their thinking. I had a guy send me an unsolicited message because of my pro vaccination stance attempting to persuade me that covid was a con. I sarcastically asked him if he believed that man had walked on the moon. He sent me a long rambling message about how that was all faked as well. I assume he spends much of his life searching for 'evidence' that nothing that is generally believed is true. It's these people that I have the biggest problem with. Conspiracy theorists actually believe what they are saying and are as vocal about it as those that can see the holes in their views. The internet makes a perfect place for amplification, meanwhile in the real world I'm lucky to not know 1 person who holds the views of the conspiracy theorists. For once the real world wins " I know one conspiracy theorist, and it is remarkable seeing how he approaches incidents and topics. His immediate reaction to ahh set no circumstances is that “something is going on”, and when you meet him the following week he has found a conspiracy theory online that satisfies his suspicion. I often replay past conspiracies back to him, stuff that he firmly believed a few months earlier, but he usually sticks to his guns, believing something that had been disproved. He is a real “alternative facts” aficionado | |||
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"If you dont like them dont take ANY drugs. I,m alive because of so callsx big pharma and thank fuck . I think you're missing the point here. The thread is about being open to questioning things and looking at the bigger picture If the questions can be answered satisfactorily they will become less of a concern Being sceptical is healthy..being cynical is not " thank you and well said.
The idea that ALL drugs are bad and ALL companies are bad and ALL politicians are corrupt is utter nonsense. However, sadly, many are! | |||
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"You make some fair points but where I struggle is with the blind conviction of the conspiracy theorists in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary of their thinking. I had a guy send me an unsolicited message because of my pro vaccination stance attempting to persuade me that covid was a con. I sarcastically asked him if he believed that man had walked on the moon. He sent me a long rambling message about how that was all faked as well. I assume he spends much of his life searching for 'evidence' that nothing that is generally believed is true. It's these people that I have the biggest problem with. Conspiracy theorists actually believe what they are saying and are as vocal about it as those that can see the holes in their views. The internet makes a perfect place for amplification, meanwhile in the real world I'm lucky to not know 1 person who holds the views of the conspiracy theorists. For once the real world wins " Ah but would they tell you or admit it for fear of ridicule? | |||
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"The vaccines work incredibly well against the virus they were designed against. The Omicron variant is so heavily mutated, especially in the spike protein, that it is very obvious to anyone who understands immunology that the vaccines will be less effective against it. Less effective does not mean ineffective though. At all junctures, the vaccine designers have said that the specific antigen within the vaccines will need to be amended seasonally, just like with the flu vaccine. However, due to the sheer amount of worldwide infection, mutations are coming thick and fast and there's only so quickly that amended vaccine can be made." At the outset of this pandemic, conventional wisdom was that jt would take many years to develop vaccines. The progress has been phenomenal. And in the early days of the vaccine rollout, starmer was lampooning boris when he said the programme would get to delivering 1 million per week. Again, the delivery programme has been phenomenal. | |||
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"OP, that’s just a giant anti-government, anti-pharma rant. For me, the way that the pharmacy industry has reacted in developing vaccines in such a short space of time, and the way that governments (not just our own) have rolled out vaccine programmes, is fantastic. Do I trust government and big companies on everything? No. Have errors been made along the way? Absolutely. But the overall effort to develop and deploy vaccines is fantastic " One person’s rant is another’s post raising interesting points for discussion. I have not said anything about the response to Covid but tell me which of the points I have raised(to illustrate why trust in govt/pharma is damaged) are not true? | |||
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"Follow the money." Indeed! | |||
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"The vaccines work incredibly well against the virus they were designed against. The Omicron variant is so heavily mutated, especially in the spike protein, that it is very obvious to anyone who understands immunology that the vaccines will be less effective against it. Less effective does not mean ineffective though. At all junctures, the vaccine designers have said that the specific antigen within the vaccines will need to be amended seasonally, just like with the flu vaccine. However, due to the sheer amount of worldwide infection, mutations are coming thick and fast and there's only so quickly that amended vaccine can be made. At the outset of this pandemic, conventional wisdom was that jt would take many years to develop vaccines. The progress has been phenomenal. And in the early days of the vaccine rollout, starmer was lampooning boris when he said the programme would get to delivering 1 million per week. Again, the delivery programme has been phenomenal. " The delivery programme is only operating on the back of a vast number of volunteers who are giving up a lot of time, for free. It wouldn't be anywhere near where it is now without volunteers. | |||
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"You make some fair points but where I struggle is with the blind conviction of the conspiracy theorists in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary of their thinking. I had a guy send me an unsolicited message because of my pro vaccination stance attempting to persuade me that covid was a con. I sarcastically asked him if he believed that man had walked on the moon. He sent me a long rambling message about how that was all faked as well. I assume he spends much of his life searching for 'evidence' that nothing that is generally believed is true. It's these people that I have the biggest problem with. Conspiracy theorists actually believe what they are saying and are as vocal about it as those that can see the holes in their views. The internet makes a perfect place for amplification, meanwhile in the real world I'm lucky to not know 1 person who holds the views of the conspiracy theorists. For once the real world wins Ah but would they tell you or admit it for fear of ridicule?" In the real world people I know are mainly assertive so I would have a good idea if they were hiding their beliefs. I'm also not saying people I know don't have questions about the vaccine, frequency of jabs, covid and many other topics, what they don't do is wrap those questions up in far out conspiracy theories to try and prove a predetermined idea. | |||
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"You make some fair points but where I struggle is with the blind conviction of the conspiracy theorists in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary of their thinking. I had a guy send me an unsolicited message because of my pro vaccination stance attempting to persuade me that covid was a con. I sarcastically asked him if he believed that man had walked on the moon. He sent me a long rambling message about how that was all faked as well. I assume he spends much of his life searching for 'evidence' that nothing that is generally believed is true. It's these people that I have the biggest problem with. Conspiracy theorists actually believe what they are saying and are as vocal about it as those that can see the holes in their views. The internet makes a perfect place for amplification, meanwhile in the real world I'm lucky to not know 1 person who holds the views of the conspiracy theorists. For once the real world wins Ah but would they tell you or admit it for fear of ridicule? In the real world people I know are mainly assertive so I would have a good idea if they were hiding their beliefs. I'm also not saying people I know don't have questions about the vaccine, frequency of jabs, covid and many other topics, what they don't do is wrap those questions up in far out conspiracy theories to try and prove a predetermined idea. " I hear you, was just pulling your leg  | |||
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"You make some fair points but where I struggle is with the blind conviction of the conspiracy theorists in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary of their thinking. I had a guy send me an unsolicited message because of my pro vaccination stance attempting to persuade me that covid was a con. I sarcastically asked him if he believed that man had walked on the moon. He sent me a long rambling message about how that was all faked as well. I assume he spends much of his life searching for 'evidence' that nothing that is generally believed is true. It's these people that I have the biggest problem with. Conspiracy theorists actually believe what they are saying and are as vocal about it as those that can see the holes in their views. The internet makes a perfect place for amplification, meanwhile in the real world I'm lucky to not know 1 person who holds the views of the conspiracy theorists. For once the real world wins Ah but would they tell you or admit it for fear of ridicule? In the real world people I know are mainly assertive so I would have a good idea if they were hiding their beliefs. I'm also not saying people I know don't have questions about the vaccine, frequency of jabs, covid and many other topics, what they don't do is wrap those questions up in far out conspiracy theories to try and prove a predetermined idea. I hear you, was just pulling your leg "  | |||
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"The vaccines work incredibly well against the virus they were designed against. The Omicron variant is so heavily mutated, especially in the spike protein, that it is very obvious to anyone who understands immunology that the vaccines will be less effective against it. Less effective does not mean ineffective though. At all junctures, the vaccine designers have said that the specific antigen within the vaccines will need to be amended seasonally, just like with the flu vaccine. However, due to the sheer amount of worldwide infection, mutations are coming thick and fast and there's only so quickly that amended vaccine can be made. At the outset of this pandemic, conventional wisdom was that jt would take many years to develop vaccines. The progress has been phenomenal. And in the early days of the vaccine rollout, starmer was lampooning boris when he said the programme would get to delivering 1 million per week. Again, the delivery programme has been phenomenal. The delivery programme is only operating on the back of a vast number of volunteers who are giving up a lot of time, for free. It wouldn't be anywhere near where it is now without volunteers. " Isn't that a good thing? Communities pulling together to help eachother? | |||
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"Originally posted this in a thread but thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion (or may just be full of tumble ). Either way... The majority (certainly not all) of the ongoing discussion around the safety of the covid vaccines is down to one thing. A lack of trust. Trust in government. Trust in big pharma. And the problem is that govts (and in particular ours in the UK this past two years) and big pharma have serious form for lying, deception, malpractice and corruption. And yet suddenly because of the pandemic we are told they need to be trusted. When you see govt officials flouting the rules, driving to “test their eyes”, not wearing masks, having parties, playing with their mistress etc some people will wonder what they know that we don’t? It feeds the conspiracies. When you see govt corruption that results in the largest transfer of public assets into private hands in history, some people question their motives. When you have the scientists working for pharma tell you their research and testing is totally sound and that they know xyz about efficacy, dosage/frequency etc only to then have this revised at what would appear to be a convenient moment, some people will have doubts. When you see govt “listening to the science” when it suits but ignoring it when it doesn’t (such as 6 week delay to closing border to India), some people will be concerned our leaders do not really have our best interests at heart. When you see govt pushing legislation through that severely damages/limits our rights, or seeking to change the electoral system in such a way that it only benefits those already in power and doing so during a global public health emergency (ie people are distracted), the some people will be worried about where this is all leading. Trust is very hard to earn (although going by some on here that statement seems completely wrong) and very easy to lose. I have said it many times on here (getting boring I am sure) but always follow the money. While I actually do have confidence the vaccines work (but am bitterly disappointed they don’t work as well as we were told by those we are supposed to trust) I am very sceptical about some of the motives driving policy. There is so much money involved that a public health emergency creates the perfect situation for the corrupt to exploit for their own gain (and we know for fact they did around PPE, LFTs, and other med supplies). The pandemic is a disaster capitalist’s and corrupt opportunist’s wet dream. That makes motives questionable and trust continually gets eroded." War and Famine used to be the mantra for Capitalist success...in the West we have access to many sourves that allows us to distrust, dispute and despise but our systems generally give us a Govt (most western countries follow cyclical terms) that changes when 'we decide' ( yeah right manipulation of the many added to gullibility of the masses ...Google makes us all experts in a day...well six clicks...the current pandemic was started by Col Mustard in the Library ... | |||
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"OP, that’s just a giant anti-government, anti-pharma rant. For me, the way that the pharmacy industry has reacted in developing vaccines in such a short space of time, and the way that governments (not just our own) have rolled out vaccine programmes, is fantastic. Do I trust government and big companies on everything? No. Have errors been made along the way? Absolutely. But the overall effort to develop and deploy vaccines is fantastic One person’s rant is another’s post raising interesting points for discussion. I have not said anything about the response to Covid but tell me which of the points I have raised(to illustrate why trust in govt/pharma is damaged) are not true?" No point. You have stared as fact that you don’t trust big pharma or government, and you are entitled to that viewpoint. I stated my views, that I don’t completely trust them, but on the vaccine development and rollouts the efforts and results have been outstanding. Because you have already made Uk your mind that you do t trust them, to seek the view every twist, turn, refinement and development as sinister or underhand. I don’t. But you choose to generalise your viewpoint but by stating that “trust” in general has been damaged. I don’t believe that to be true. I choose to believe what I choose to believe, not what you tell me I should believe | |||
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"OP it's people like you asking questions that the world needs more of. It's everyone's best interest to thank discussion starters and ask further questions. I feel that no matter what your belief on this topic is, discussions need to be had continuously, people's reasonings to be pro or against need to be respected and at all costs we need to look out for one another and respect one another to avoid a further divide. A really amazing show I watched recently was a true story about the rise of Oxycontin and it blew my mind at how big pharma can knowingly cause damage if they desire profit over safety. Anyone interested, watch it, Micheal Keaton is great in it! As for the initial thread point, trust your gut, respect each others guts, we are all walking our own path "I forgot to add the show name  it's Dopesick.. haha oops. | |||
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"OP it's people like you asking questions that the world needs more of. It's everyone's best interest to thank discussion starters and ask further questions. I feel that no matter what your belief on this topic is, discussions need to be had continuously, people's reasonings to be pro or against need to be respected and at all costs we need to look out for one another and respect one another to avoid a further divide. A really amazing show I watched recently was a true story about the rise of Oxycontin and it blew my mind at how big pharma can knowingly cause damage if they desire profit over safety. Anyone interested, watch it, Micheal Keaton is great in it! As for the initial thread point, trust your gut, respect each others guts, we are all walking our own path "Great Post. Well said. | |||
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"You as usual make some excellent points. It is so broken i'm not sure how we can do better though. Giving people a vote to choose between the devil and the deep blue sea once every 5 years does not seem to work. I think a large part of the problem is in our countries poor education and cheap skate short term attitude and lack of ambition. We want to pay poundshop prices and yet we demand waitrose service and when it inevitably fails we demand resignations. We despise anyone who succeeds or makes a profit and expect all our public servants to work for buttons 24 hours a day, never take a holiday and be permanently miserable. Our worship of what we think the nhs is like an albatross around the neck of our own health and well being. God forbid we ever see anyone laughing or smiling or embracing like humans do. We want to pay our ministers of state the equivalent of a delivery driver and expect them to resolve matters of national and international state for 70k but never ask a question about the companies actually delivering cap, tfl, Pfizer, az, et al (both ceos package well over 20m usd). There needs to be a better way of monitoring and enforcing standards that doesn't involve the court of social media.... OK I ran out of steam... But If I had a magic wand I'd...... " Some great points and observations there. | |||
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"The vaccines work incredibly well against the virus they were designed against. The Omicron variant is so heavily mutated, especially in the spike protein, that it is very obvious to anyone who understands immunology that the vaccines will be less effective against it. Less effective does not mean ineffective though. At all junctures, the vaccine designers have said that the specific antigen within the vaccines will need to be amended seasonally, just like with the flu vaccine. However, due to the sheer amount of worldwide infection, mutations are coming thick and fast and there's only so quickly that amended vaccine can be made. At the outset of this pandemic, conventional wisdom was that jt would take many years to develop vaccines. The progress has been phenomenal. And in the early days of the vaccine rollout, starmer was lampooning boris when he said the programme would get to delivering 1 million per week. Again, the delivery programme has been phenomenal. The delivery programme is only operating on the back of a vast number of volunteers who are giving up a lot of time, for free. It wouldn't be anywhere near where it is now without volunteers. Isn't that a good thing? Communities pulling together to help eachother? " Absolutely | |||
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"OP it's people like you asking questions that the world needs more of. It's everyone's best interest to thank discussion starters and ask further questions. I feel that no matter what your belief on this topic is, discussions need to be had continuously, people's reasonings to be pro or against need to be respected and at all costs we need to look out for one another and respect one another to avoid a further divide. A really amazing show I watched recently was a true story about the rise of Oxycontin and it blew my mind at how big pharma can knowingly cause damage if they desire profit over safety. Anyone interested, watch it, Micheal Keaton is great in it! As for the initial thread point, trust your gut, respect each others guts, we are all walking our own path
Great Post. Well said."Thank you | |||
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"OP it's people like you asking questions that the world needs more of. It's everyone's best interest to thank discussion starters and ask further questions. I feel that no matter what your belief on this topic is, discussions need to be had continuously, people's reasonings to be pro or against need to be respected and at all costs we need to look out for one another and respect one another to avoid a further divide. A really amazing show I watched recently was a true story about the rise of Oxycontin and it blew my mind at how big pharma can knowingly cause damage if they desire profit over safety. Anyone interested, watch it, Micheal Keaton is great in it! As for the initial thread point, trust your gut, respect each others guts, we are all walking our own path " thank you. I would start to lose hope for human kind if we cannot discuss topics and do our best to understand different viewpoints to our own. It is only by sharing knowledge, raising hypotheses and debating that the human race has evolved at all! | |||
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"OP, that’s just a giant anti-government, anti-pharma rant. For me, the way that the pharmacy industry has reacted in developing vaccines in such a short space of time, and the way that governments (not just our own) have rolled out vaccine programmes, is fantastic. Do I trust government and big companies on everything? No. Have errors been made along the way? Absolutely. But the overall effort to develop and deploy vaccines is fantastic One person’s rant is another’s post raising interesting points for discussion. I have not said anything about the response to Covid but tell me which of the points I have raised(to illustrate why trust in govt/pharma is damaged) are not true? No point. You have stared as fact that you don’t trust big pharma or government, and you are entitled to that viewpoint. I stated my views, that I don’t completely trust them, but on the vaccine development and rollouts the efforts and results have been outstanding. Because you have already made Uk your mind that you do t trust them, to seek the view every twist, turn, refinement and development as sinister or underhand. I don’t. But you choose to generalise your viewpoint but by stating that “trust” in general has been damaged. I don’t believe that to be true. I choose to believe what I choose to believe, not what you tell me I should believe " It’s interesting that you have assumed this is my view in entirety. I have out forward some reasons why PEOPLE (not specifically me) have lost trust or have low levels if trust. In wanting to stimulate that discussion, my own viewpoint is actually fairly irrelevant beyond that I believe these are some of the reasons. | |||
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"Originally posted this in a thread but thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion (or may just be full of tumble ). Either way... The majority (certainly not all) of the ongoing discussion around the safety of the covid vaccines is down to one thing. A lack of trust. Trust in government. Trust in big pharma. And the problem is that govts (and in particular ours in the UK this past two years) and big pharma have serious form for lying, deception, malpractice and corruption. And yet suddenly because of the pandemic we are told they need to be trusted. When you see govt officials flouting the rules, driving to “test their eyes”, not wearing masks, having parties, playing with their mistress etc some people will wonder what they know that we don’t? It feeds the conspiracies. When you see govt corruption that results in the largest transfer of public assets into private hands in history, some people question their motives. When you have the scientists working for pharma tell you their research and testing is totally sound and that they know xyz about efficacy, dosage/frequency etc only to then have this revised at what would appear to be a convenient moment, some people will have doubts. When you see govt “listening to the science” when it suits but ignoring it when it doesn’t (such as 6 week delay to closing border to India), some people will be concerned our leaders do not really have our best interests at heart. When you see govt pushing legislation through that severely damages/limits our rights, or seeking to change the electoral system in such a way that it only benefits those already in power and doing so during a global public health emergency (ie people are distracted), the some people will be worried about where this is all leading. Trust is very hard to earn (although going by some on here that statement seems completely wrong) and very easy to lose. I have said it many times on here (getting boring I am sure) but always follow the money. While I actually do have confidence the vaccines work (but am bitterly disappointed they don’t work as well as we were told by those we are supposed to trust) I am very sceptical about some of the motives driving policy. There is so much money involved that a public health emergency creates the perfect situation for the corrupt to exploit for their own gain (and we know for fact they did around PPE, LFTs, and other med supplies). The pandemic is a disaster capitalist’s and corrupt opportunist’s wet dream. That makes motives questionable and trust continually gets eroded." Whilst I agree with most of your comments about the government, we have no proof any other government would have been better | |||
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"OP, that’s just a giant anti-government, anti-pharma rant. For me, the way that the pharmacy industry has reacted in developing vaccines in such a short space of time, and the way that governments (not just our own) have rolled out vaccine programmes, is fantastic. Do I trust government and big companies on everything? No. Have errors been made along the way? Absolutely. But the overall effort to develop and deploy vaccines is fantastic One person’s rant is another’s post raising interesting points for discussion. I have not said anything about the response to Covid but tell me which of the points I have raised(to illustrate why trust in govt/pharma is damaged) are not true? No point. You have stared as fact that you don’t trust big pharma or government, and you are entitled to that viewpoint. I stated my views, that I don’t completely trust them, but on the vaccine development and rollouts the efforts and results have been outstanding. Because you have already made Uk your mind that you do t trust them, to seek the view every twist, turn, refinement and development as sinister or underhand. I don’t. But you choose to generalise your viewpoint but by stating that “trust” in general has been damaged. I don’t believe that to be true. I choose to believe what I choose to believe, not what you tell me I should believe It’s interesting that you have assumed this is my view in entirety. I have out forward some reasons why PEOPLE (not specifically me) have lost trust or have low levels if trust. In wanting to stimulate that discussion, my own viewpoint is actually fairly irrelevant beyond that I believe these are some of the reasons." Exactly, you have framed your views as “people”, rather than simply stating what you think. I find that very presumptive. If anything, the response to the pandemic by scientists and governments has improved my trust levels in both. That’s just my opinion though, I’m not going to try pretending that that’s how other people feel ... | |||
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"OP it's people like you asking questions that the world needs more of. It's everyone's best interest to thank discussion starters and ask further questions. I feel that no matter what your belief on this topic is, discussions need to be had continuously, people's reasonings to be pro or against need to be respected and at all costs we need to look out for one another and respect one another to avoid a further divide. A really amazing show I watched recently was a true story about the rise of Oxycontin and it blew my mind at how big pharma can knowingly cause damage if they desire profit over safety. Anyone interested, watch it, Micheal Keaton is great in it! As for the initial thread point, trust your gut, respect each others guts, we are all walking our own path
thank you. I would start to lose hope for human kind if we cannot discuss topics and do our best to understand different viewpoints to our own. It is only by sharing knowledge, raising hypotheses and debating that the human race has evolved at all! "Exactly yeah, and I find it hard to watch friends and family torn apart over differences of opinions when realistically a conversation can just allow new perspectives to be understood, accepted and life goes on, happily. We're all living in the same boat so compassion and understanding is the bare minimum we need here. | |||
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"Originally posted this in a thread but thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion (or may just be full of tumble ). Either way... The majority (certainly not all) of the ongoing discussion around the safety of the covid vaccines is down to one thing. A lack of trust. Trust in government. Trust in big pharma. And the problem is that govts (and in particular ours in the UK this past two years) and big pharma have serious form for lying, deception, malpractice and corruption. And yet suddenly because of the pandemic we are told they need to be trusted. When you see govt officials flouting the rules, driving to “test their eyes”, not wearing masks, having parties, playing with their mistress etc some people will wonder what they know that we don’t? It feeds the conspiracies. When you see govt corruption that results in the largest transfer of public assets into private hands in history, some people question their motives. When you have the scientists working for pharma tell you their research and testing is totally sound and that they know xyz about efficacy, dosage/frequency etc only to then have this revised at what would appear to be a convenient moment, some people will have doubts. When you see govt “listening to the science” when it suits but ignoring it when it doesn’t (such as 6 week delay to closing border to India), some people will be concerned our leaders do not really have our best interests at heart. When you see govt pushing legislation through that severely damages/limits our rights, or seeking to change the electoral system in such a way that it only benefits those already in power and doing so during a global public health emergency (ie people are distracted), the some people will be worried about where this is all leading. Trust is very hard to earn (although going by some on here that statement seems completely wrong) and very easy to lose. I have said it many times on here (getting boring I am sure) but always follow the money. While I actually do have confidence the vaccines work (but am bitterly disappointed they don’t work as well as we were told by those we are supposed to trust) I am very sceptical about some of the motives driving policy. There is so much money involved that a public health emergency creates the perfect situation for the corrupt to exploit for their own gain (and we know for fact they did around PPE, LFTs, and other med supplies). The pandemic is a disaster capitalist’s and corrupt opportunist’s wet dream. That makes motives questionable and trust continually gets eroded. Whilst I agree with most of your comments about the government, we have no proof any other government would have been better" Agreed but that doesn’t change the point of the thread - ie reasons for why there is a loss of trust in govt and pharma. While I have my political views, I didn’t really want this to be a blue vs red discussion but more a “why don’t people trust” and “aren’t there valid reasons for that lack of trust” | |||
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"OP, that’s just a giant anti-government, anti-pharma rant. For me, the way that the pharmacy industry has reacted in developing vaccines in such a short space of time, and the way that governments (not just our own) have rolled out vaccine programmes, is fantastic. Do I trust government and big companies on everything? No. Have errors been made along the way? Absolutely. But the overall effort to develop and deploy vaccines is fantastic One person’s rant is another’s post raising interesting points for discussion. I have not said anything about the response to Covid but tell me which of the points I have raised(to illustrate why trust in govt/pharma is damaged) are not true? No point. You have stared as fact that you don’t trust big pharma or government, and you are entitled to that viewpoint. I stated my views, that I don’t completely trust them, but on the vaccine development and rollouts the efforts and results have been outstanding. Because you have already made Uk your mind that you do t trust them, to seek the view every twist, turn, refinement and development as sinister or underhand. I don’t. But you choose to generalise your viewpoint but by stating that “trust” in general has been damaged. I don’t believe that to be true. I choose to believe what I choose to believe, not what you tell me I should believe It’s interesting that you have assumed this is my view in entirety. I have out forward some reasons why PEOPLE (not specifically me) have lost trust or have low levels if trust. In wanting to stimulate that discussion, my own viewpoint is actually fairly irrelevant beyond that I believe these are some of the reasons. Exactly, you have framed your views as “people”, rather than simply stating what you think. I find that very presumptive. If anything, the response to the pandemic by scientists and governments has improved my trust levels in both. That’s just my opinion though, I’m not going to try pretending that that’s how other people feel ... " I would argue it is not presumptive but based on observation (just a cursory scan of the virus and political forum on Fab will support the view I would say) I am liking your optimistic view though. Be nice to have more optimism in the world! | |||
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"Originally posted this in a thread but thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion (or may just be full of tumble ). Either way... The majority (certainly not all) of the ongoing discussion around the safety of the covid vaccines is down to one thing. A lack of trust. Trust in government. Trust in big pharma. And the problem is that govts (and in particular ours in the UK this past two years) and big pharma have serious form for lying, deception, malpractice and corruption. And yet suddenly because of the pandemic we are told they need to be trusted. When you see govt officials flouting the rules, driving to “test their eyes”, not wearing masks, having parties, playing with their mistress etc some people will wonder what they know that we don’t? It feeds the conspiracies. When you see govt corruption that results in the largest transfer of public assets into private hands in history, some people question their motives. When you have the scientists working for pharma tell you their research and testing is totally sound and that they know xyz about efficacy, dosage/frequency etc only to then have this revised at what would appear to be a convenient moment, some people will have doubts. When you see govt “listening to the science” when it suits but ignoring it when it doesn’t (such as 6 week delay to closing border to India), some people will be concerned our leaders do not really have our best interests at heart. When you see govt pushing legislation through that severely damages/limits our rights, or seeking to change the electoral system in such a way that it only benefits those already in power and doing so during a global public health emergency (ie people are distracted), the some people will be worried about where this is all leading. Trust is very hard to earn (although going by some on here that statement seems completely wrong) and very easy to lose. I have said it many times on here (getting boring I am sure) but always follow the money. While I actually do have confidence the vaccines work (but am bitterly disappointed they don’t work as well as we were told by those we are supposed to trust) I am very sceptical about some of the motives driving policy. There is so much money involved that a public health emergency creates the perfect situation for the corrupt to exploit for their own gain (and we know for fact they did around PPE, LFTs, and other med supplies). The pandemic is a disaster capitalist’s and corrupt opportunist’s wet dream. That makes motives questionable and trust continually gets eroded. Whilst I agree with most of your comments about the government, we have no proof any other government would have been better Agreed but that doesn’t change the point of the thread - ie reasons for why there is a loss of trust in govt and pharma. While I have my political views, I didn’t really want this to be a blue vs red discussion but more a “why don’t people trust” and “aren’t there valid reasons for that lack of trust”" Again, you are stating as fact that there has been a loss of trust in the government. And you then try to pretend that you are trim f to open things up for discussion. I used to have a work colleague like this, who would open discussions by saying “I think I speak on behalf of everyone when I say ...” and then try to ram his viewpoint down our throats. | |||
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"Originally posted this in a thread but thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion (or may just be full of tumble ). Either way... The majority (certainly not all) of the ongoing discussion around the safety of the covid vaccines is down to one thing. A lack of trust. Trust in government. Trust in big pharma. And the problem is that govts (and in particular ours in the UK this past two years) and big pharma have serious form for lying, deception, malpractice and corruption. And yet suddenly because of the pandemic we are told they need to be trusted. When you see govt officials flouting the rules, driving to “test their eyes”, not wearing masks, having parties, playing with their mistress etc some people will wonder what they know that we don’t? It feeds the conspiracies. When you see govt corruption that results in the largest transfer of public assets into private hands in history, some people question their motives. When you have the scientists working for pharma tell you their research and testing is totally sound and that they know xyz about efficacy, dosage/frequency etc only to then have this revised at what would appear to be a convenient moment, some people will have doubts. When you see govt “listening to the science” when it suits but ignoring it when it doesn’t (such as 6 week delay to closing border to India), some people will be concerned our leaders do not really have our best interests at heart. When you see govt pushing legislation through that severely damages/limits our rights, or seeking to change the electoral system in such a way that it only benefits those already in power and doing so during a global public health emergency (ie people are distracted), the some people will be worried about where this is all leading. Trust is very hard to earn (although going by some on here that statement seems completely wrong) and very easy to lose. I have said it many times on here (getting boring I am sure) but always follow the money. While I actually do have confidence the vaccines work (but am bitterly disappointed they don’t work as well as we were told by those we are supposed to trust) I am very sceptical about some of the motives driving policy. There is so much money involved that a public health emergency creates the perfect situation for the corrupt to exploit for their own gain (and we know for fact they did around PPE, LFTs, and other med supplies). The pandemic is a disaster capitalist’s and corrupt opportunist’s wet dream. That makes motives questionable and trust continually gets eroded. Whilst I agree with most of your comments about the government, we have no proof any other government would have been better Agreed but that doesn’t change the point of the thread - ie reasons for why there is a loss of trust in govt and pharma. While I have my political views, I didn’t really want this to be a blue vs red discussion but more a “why don’t people trust” and “aren’t there valid reasons for that lack of trust”" There is a loss of trust because there is no "measure" how do we the people know if they are telling us the truth or not we can't compare it. | |||
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"Originally posted this in a thread but thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion (or may just be full of tumble ). Either way... The majority (certainly not all) of the ongoing discussion around the safety of the covid vaccines is down to one thing. A lack of trust. Trust in government. Trust in big pharma. And the problem is that govts (and in particular ours in the UK this past two years) and big pharma have serious form for lying, deception, malpractice and corruption. And yet suddenly because of the pandemic we are told they need to be trusted. When you see govt officials flouting the rules, driving to “test their eyes”, not wearing masks, having parties, playing with their mistress etc some people will wonder what they know that we don’t? It feeds the conspiracies. When you see govt corruption that results in the largest transfer of public assets into private hands in history, some people question their motives. When you have the scientists working for pharma tell you their research and testing is totally sound and that they know xyz about efficacy, dosage/frequency etc only to then have this revised at what would appear to be a convenient moment, some people will have doubts. When you see govt “listening to the science” when it suits but ignoring it when it doesn’t (such as 6 week delay to closing border to India), some people will be concerned our leaders do not really have our best interests at heart. When you see govt pushing legislation through that severely damages/limits our rights, or seeking to change the electoral system in such a way that it only benefits those already in power and doing so during a global public health emergency (ie people are distracted), the some people will be worried about where this is all leading. Trust is very hard to earn (although going by some on here that statement seems completely wrong) and very easy to lose. I have said it many times on here (getting boring I am sure) but always follow the money. While I actually do have confidence the vaccines work (but am bitterly disappointed they don’t work as well as we were told by those we are supposed to trust) I am very sceptical about some of the motives driving policy. There is so much money involved that a public health emergency creates the perfect situation for the corrupt to exploit for their own gain (and we know for fact they did around PPE, LFTs, and other med supplies). The pandemic is a disaster capitalist’s and corrupt opportunist’s wet dream. That makes motives questionable and trust continually gets eroded. Whilst I agree with most of your comments about the government, we have no proof any other government would have been better Agreed but that doesn’t change the point of the thread - ie reasons for why there is a loss of trust in govt and pharma. While I have my political views, I didn’t really want this to be a blue vs red discussion but more a “why don’t people trust” and “aren’t there valid reasons for that lack of trust” Again, you are stating as fact that there has been a loss of trust in the government. And you then try to pretend that you are trim f to open things up for discussion. I used to have a work colleague like this, who would open discussions by saying “I think I speak on behalf of everyone when I say ...” and then try to ram his viewpoint down our throats. " Hmmm well I could spend a few hours trying to find allowable links to the numerous opinion polls that have been done on this very topic but I am not going to. Google is your friend. So are you saying there are high levels of trust in govt and in pharma in a majority of people? If so can you support that with evidence? Not sure what point you are trying to make beyond undermining the whole area being discussed? | |||
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"Originally posted this in a thread but thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion (or may just be full of tumble ). Either way... The majority (certainly not all) of the ongoing discussion around the safety of the covid vaccines is down to one thing. A lack of trust. Trust in government. Trust in big pharma. And the problem is that govts (and in particular ours in the UK this past two years) and big pharma have serious form for lying, deception, malpractice and corruption. And yet suddenly because of the pandemic we are told they need to be trusted. When you see govt officials flouting the rules, driving to “test their eyes”, not wearing masks, having parties, playing with their mistress etc some people will wonder what they know that we don’t? It feeds the conspiracies. When you see govt corruption that results in the largest transfer of public assets into private hands in history, some people question their motives. When you have the scientists working for pharma tell you their research and testing is totally sound and that they know xyz about efficacy, dosage/frequency etc only to then have this revised at what would appear to be a convenient moment, some people will have doubts. When you see govt “listening to the science” when it suits but ignoring it when it doesn’t (such as 6 week delay to closing border to India), some people will be concerned our leaders do not really have our best interests at heart. When you see govt pushing legislation through that severely damages/limits our rights, or seeking to change the electoral system in such a way that it only benefits those already in power and doing so during a global public health emergency (ie people are distracted), the some people will be worried about where this is all leading. Trust is very hard to earn (although going by some on here that statement seems completely wrong) and very easy to lose. I have said it many times on here (getting boring I am sure) but always follow the money. While I actually do have confidence the vaccines work (but am bitterly disappointed they don’t work as well as we were told by those we are supposed to trust) I am very sceptical about some of the motives driving policy. There is so much money involved that a public health emergency creates the perfect situation for the corrupt to exploit for their own gain (and we know for fact they did around PPE, LFTs, and other med supplies). The pandemic is a disaster capitalist’s and corrupt opportunist’s wet dream. That makes motives questionable and trust continually gets eroded. Whilst I agree with most of your comments about the government, we have no proof any other government would have been better Agreed but that doesn’t change the point of the thread - ie reasons for why there is a loss of trust in govt and pharma. While I have my political views, I didn’t really want this to be a blue vs red discussion but more a “why don’t people trust” and “aren’t there valid reasons for that lack of trust” Again, you are stating as fact that there has been a loss of trust in the government. And you then try to pretend that you are trim f to open things up for discussion. I used to have a work colleague like this, who would open discussions by saying “I think I speak on behalf of everyone when I say ...” and then try to ram his viewpoint down our throats. Hmmm well I could spend a few hours trying to find allowable links to the numerous opinion polls that have been done on this very topic but I am not going to. Google is your friend. So are you saying there are high levels of trust in govt and in pharma in a majority of people? If so can you support that with evidence? Not sure what point you are trying to make beyond undermining the whole area being discussed?" No, I’m not going to pretend that my opinions are held by the wider population. You pretend that you want to share views and opinions, but it appears that you are only interested if people agree with you. | |||
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"I don't feel it's black and white. Do I trust this government? Nope. Not about Covid, not about anything. Big Pharma have a terrible record and we all know it. However, I do trust the scientific method and the paperwork that was released. The scrutiny all of this has undergone has been phenomenal, and from many independent angles. Even if I didn't, the record of the "sceptics" who have the "real story" has been poor, and that's a generous interpretation of their continual failures. One can have an open mind and distrust authority, without falling down a rabbit hole of bollocks." agreed | |||
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"The vaccines work incredibly well against the virus they were designed against. The Omicron variant is so heavily mutated, especially in the spike protein, that it is very obvious to anyone who understands immunology that the vaccines will be less effective against it. Less effective does not mean ineffective though. At all junctures, the vaccine designers have said that the specific antigen within the vaccines will need to be amended seasonally, just like with the flu vaccine. However, due to the sheer amount of worldwide infection, mutations are coming thick and fast and there's only so quickly that amended vaccine can be made. At the outset of this pandemic, conventional wisdom was that jt would take many years to develop vaccines. The progress has been phenomenal. And in the early days of the vaccine rollout, starmer was lampooning boris when he said the programme would get to delivering 1 million per week. Again, the delivery programme has been phenomenal. The delivery programme is only operating on the back of a vast number of volunteers who are giving up a lot of time, for free. It wouldn't be anywhere near where it is now without volunteers. Isn't that a good thing? Communities pulling together to help eachother? " It's immensely tiring because many of the volunteers also have jobs, families and other responsibilities. We receive imploring messages and emails constantly, signed by the likes of Jonathan van Tam, asking us to do just a bit more. Some of us have been effectively working two jobs - one FT paid and another PT unpaid, 6 or 7 days a week, weekends and Bank Holidays and when our PM suddenly decides we have to give boosters to everyone by a ridiculously early date, the pressure to do more and more increases. I volunteered to help, to try and speed up the end of the pandemic and in the hope that it would take some pressure off the NHS. However, it's lasted so much longer than even anticipated and I experienced serious burn out. I didn't volunteer over Christmas and New Year. I went on holiday instead but I felt guilty for doing so. So yes, it's wonderful, until the volunteers are taken for granted. | |||
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"OP it's people like you asking questions that the world needs more of. It's everyone's best interest to thank discussion starters and ask further questions. I feel that no matter what your belief on this topic is, discussions need to be had continuously, people's reasonings to be pro or against need to be respected and at all costs we need to look out for one another and respect one another to avoid a further divide. A really amazing show I watched recently was a true story about the rise of Oxycontin and it blew my mind at how big pharma can knowingly cause damage if they desire profit over safety. Anyone interested, watch it, Micheal Keaton is great in it! As for the initial thread point, trust your gut, respect each others guts, we are all walking our own path "is that dopesick? Watched that the other week and after watching it you can see why some people dont trust big pharma | |||
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"OP you do make some points, some of which I agree with, others slightly less so. We read a lot about 'big pharma' and 'follow the money' but what do you mean by this? Are you talking about 1 company, 2 companies? all of them? some privately owned some state owned? Im not particurlaly intestested in 'historical issues' I am interested in the response to the pandemic. What have 'big pharma' done that is serious form for lying, deception, malpractice and corruption in regards to the pandemic? Multiple vaccines have been produced from multiple Pharma companies/state run Pharma in response to the global pandemic. Of course Zillions of Pounds have been thrown at it by governments of all persuasions and of course some vaccines have proven not to be as effective as hoped, yet effective they have been at reducing the death toll. So for me (and I know its my opinion) saying follow the money (to big pharma) in this case doesnt hold water. Im not denying that 'big pharma' have history for lobbing governemnt, what large industry doesnt? Big Energy, Big Oil, Big Tech etc etc. Where follow the money does hold water, is where these PPE/Testing/Support companies sprung up after the pandemic started and were handed hundreds of millions of pounds worth of contracts to supply govment depsite never having produced any PPE EVER or even done testing. Just happened to be friends of certain politicians. So yes this pandemic is a corruption and exploitationist wet dream and that money does need to be followed with criminal charges is evidence of corruption found. Have our leaders been corrupt, if not provable legally then definately morally. Too many underhand 'old boys' network arrangements going on. I wouldnt hold your breath on any kind of Judicial enquiry holding the govmnt to account. When does that ever happen? And no coincidence that the Tories are forcing through legislation which will enable Ministers to disregard the findings of any judicial enquiries. If the Tories know anything it is how to look after themselves with disregard to anybody else. Having worked in academia for over 20yrs I do know that Scientists have more integrity in their little finger than our whole Government clumped together. I do trust the scientists to deliver (to the best of their knowledge) the best scientific advice currently available and if that need changing as evidence comes in then so be it, thats science. I do not hold much trust for a word that comes out of the governments mouth. You are right, trust is hard earned and easily lost. In relation to the pandemic 'big pharma' have produced vaccines that have been effective in reducing deaths/hospitalisations(as evidenced around the world) so my trust remains. Government have lied, failed, engaged in corruption and bounced from pillar to post. My trust has completlety gone with them. " Great post thanks for engaging in such a thoughtful, considered and polite way. I guess the term “Big Pharma” is probably overused and should be qualified. For me it means those pharmaceutical companies that are so large and powerful (rich) that they have the ability to spend $multi millions lobbying and buying in politicians as consultants, giving them sufficient influence to help steer govt policy to make it more beneficial to themselves. I understand you not wanting to look at historic issues, but I would argue that leopards rarely (never) change their spots. A sector that is rife with corruption, malpractice etc does not overnight become a place of virtue. Probably one of the most recent examples was the SwineFlu vaccine that was developed under similar circumstances by GSK. Article in British Medical Journal... https://www.bmj.com/content/362/bmj.k3948 QUOTE: “...the Department of Health, British Medical Association, and Royal Colleges of General Practitioners, working hard to convince a reluctant NHS workforce to get vaccinated. “We fully support the swine flu vaccination programme … The vaccine has been thoroughly tested,” they declared in a joint statement. Except, it hadn’t. Anticipating a severe influenza pandemic, governments around the world had made various logistical and legal arrangements to shorten the time between recognition of a pandemic virus and the production of a vaccine and administration of that vaccine in the population. In Europe, one element of those plans was an agreement to grant licences to pandemic vaccines based on data from pre-pandemic “mock-up” vaccines produced using a different virus (H5N1 influenza). Another element, adopted by countries such as Canada, the US, UK, France, and Germany, was to provide vaccine manufacturers indemnity from liability for wrongdoing, thereby reducing the risk of a lawsuit stemming from vaccine related injury.” END QUOTE Also have a read in the Financial Times about the current practices of Pfizer. Not exactly paragons of virtue (especially their bullying and black mail of poorer countries)... https://www.ft.com/content/0cea5e3f-d4c4-4ee2-961a-3aa150f388ec I cannot post an extract as the FT has copyright cookies. It is a long read but really worth it. I think there are many reasons why people are not trusting of “Big Pharma” not just governments. | |||
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"Originally posted this in a thread but thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion (or may just be full of tumble ). Either way... The majority (certainly not all) of the ongoing discussion around the safety of the covid vaccines is down to one thing. A lack of trust. Trust in government. Trust in big pharma. And the problem is that govts (and in particular ours in the UK this past two years) and big pharma have serious form for lying, deception, malpractice and corruption. And yet suddenly because of the pandemic we are told they need to be trusted. When you see govt officials flouting the rules, driving to “test their eyes”, not wearing masks, having parties, playing with their mistress etc some people will wonder what they know that we don’t? It feeds the conspiracies. When you see govt corruption that results in the largest transfer of public assets into private hands in history, some people question their motives. When you have the scientists working for pharma tell you their research and testing is totally sound and that they know xyz about efficacy, dosage/frequency etc only to then have this revised at what would appear to be a convenient moment, some people will have doubts. When you see govt “listening to the science” when it suits but ignoring it when it doesn’t (such as 6 week delay to closing border to India), some people will be concerned our leaders do not really have our best interests at heart. When you see govt pushing legislation through that severely damages/limits our rights, or seeking to change the electoral system in such a way that it only benefits those already in power and doing so during a global public health emergency (ie people are distracted), the some people will be worried about where this is all leading. Trust is very hard to earn (although going by some on here that statement seems completely wrong) and very easy to lose. I have said it many times on here (getting boring I am sure) but always follow the money. While I actually do have confidence the vaccines work (but am bitterly disappointed they don’t work as well as we were told by those we are supposed to trust) I am very sceptical about some of the motives driving policy. There is so much money involved that a public health emergency creates the perfect situation for the corrupt to exploit for their own gain (and we know for fact they did around PPE, LFTs, and other med supplies). The pandemic is a disaster capitalist’s and corrupt opportunist’s wet dream. That makes motives questionable and trust continually gets eroded. Whilst I agree with most of your comments about the government, we have no proof any other government would have been better Agreed but that doesn’t change the point of the thread - ie reasons for why there is a loss of trust in govt and pharma. While I have my political views, I didn’t really want this to be a blue vs red discussion but more a “why don’t people trust” and “aren’t there valid reasons for that lack of trust” Again, you are stating as fact that there has been a loss of trust in the government. And you then try to pretend that you are trim f to open things up for discussion. I used to have a work colleague like this, who would open discussions by saying “I think I speak on behalf of everyone when I say ...” and then try to ram his viewpoint down our throats. Hmmm well I could spend a few hours trying to find allowable links to the numerous opinion polls that have been done on this very topic but I am not going to. Google is your friend. So are you saying there are high levels of trust in govt and in pharma in a majority of people? If so can you support that with evidence? Not sure what point you are trying to make beyond undermining the whole area being discussed? No, I’m not going to pretend that my opinions are held by the wider population. You pretend that you want to share views and opinions, but it appears that you are only interested if people agree with you. " You seem to want to pick a fight and focus on my opinions rather than the wider point on levels of trust in govt and pharma. Sorry but not going there. Others on this thread seem perfectly capable of discussing things without pointing fingers. If you cannot do that then I respectfully suggest not reading this thread. There’s plenty others you can have a bun fight on! | |||
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"The vaccines work incredibly well against the virus they were designed against. The Omicron variant is so heavily mutated, especially in the spike protein, that it is very obvious to anyone who understands immunology that the vaccines will be less effective against it. Less effective does not mean ineffective though. At all junctures, the vaccine designers have said that the specific antigen within the vaccines will need to be amended seasonally, just like with the flu vaccine. However, due to the sheer amount of worldwide infection, mutations are coming thick and fast and there's only so quickly that amended vaccine can be made. At the outset of this pandemic, conventional wisdom was that jt would take many years to develop vaccines. The progress has been phenomenal. And in the early days of the vaccine rollout, starmer was lampooning boris when he said the programme would get to delivering 1 million per week. Again, the delivery programme has been phenomenal. The delivery programme is only operating on the back of a vast number of volunteers who are giving up a lot of time, for free. It wouldn't be anywhere near where it is now without volunteers. Isn't that a good thing? Communities pulling together to help eachother? It's immensely tiring because many of the volunteers also have jobs, families and other responsibilities. We receive imploring messages and emails constantly, signed by the likes of Jonathan van Tam, asking us to do just a bit more. Some of us have been effectively working two jobs - one FT paid and another PT unpaid, 6 or 7 days a week, weekends and Bank Holidays and when our PM suddenly decides we have to give boosters to everyone by a ridiculously early date, the pressure to do more and more increases. I volunteered to help, to try and speed up the end of the pandemic and in the hope that it would take some pressure off the NHS. However, it's lasted so much longer than even anticipated and I experienced serious burn out. I didn't volunteer over Christmas and New Year. I went on holiday instead but I felt guilty for doing so. So yes, it's wonderful, until the volunteers are taken for granted." For what it is worth...thank you  | |||
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"The vaccines work incredibly well against the virus they were designed against. The Omicron variant is so heavily mutated, especially in the spike protein, that it is very obvious to anyone who understands immunology that the vaccines will be less effective against it. Less effective does not mean ineffective though. At all junctures, the vaccine designers have said that the specific antigen within the vaccines will need to be amended seasonally, just like with the flu vaccine. However, due to the sheer amount of worldwide infection, mutations are coming thick and fast and there's only so quickly that amended vaccine can be made. At the outset of this pandemic, conventional wisdom was that jt would take many years to develop vaccines. The progress has been phenomenal. And in the early days of the vaccine rollout, starmer was lampooning boris when he said the programme would get to delivering 1 million per week. Again, the delivery programme has been phenomenal. The delivery programme is only operating on the back of a vast number of volunteers who are giving up a lot of time, for free. It wouldn't be anywhere near where it is now without volunteers. Isn't that a good thing? Communities pulling together to help eachother? It's immensely tiring because many of the volunteers also have jobs, families and other responsibilities. We receive imploring messages and emails constantly, signed by the likes of Jonathan van Tam, asking us to do just a bit more. Some of us have been effectively working two jobs - one FT paid and another PT unpaid, 6 or 7 days a week, weekends and Bank Holidays and when our PM suddenly decides we have to give boosters to everyone by a ridiculously early date, the pressure to do more and more increases. I volunteered to help, to try and speed up the end of the pandemic and in the hope that it would take some pressure off the NHS. However, it's lasted so much longer than even anticipated and I experienced serious burn out. I didn't volunteer over Christmas and New Year. I went on holiday instead but I felt guilty for doing so. So yes, it's wonderful, until the volunteers are taken for granted." It shows the lie of Big Society - society are too busy to make up for the infrastructure the government have stripped away | |||
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"The vaccines work incredibly well against the virus they were designed against. The Omicron variant is so heavily mutated, especially in the spike protein, that it is very obvious to anyone who understands immunology that the vaccines will be less effective against it. Less effective does not mean ineffective though. At all junctures, the vaccine designers have said that the specific antigen within the vaccines will need to be amended seasonally, just like with the flu vaccine. However, due to the sheer amount of worldwide infection, mutations are coming thick and fast and there's only so quickly that amended vaccine can be made. At the outset of this pandemic, conventional wisdom was that jt would take many years to develop vaccines. The progress has been phenomenal. And in the early days of the vaccine rollout, starmer was lampooning boris when he said the programme would get to delivering 1 million per week. Again, the delivery programme has been phenomenal. The delivery programme is only operating on the back of a vast number of volunteers who are giving up a lot of time, for free. It wouldn't be anywhere near where it is now without volunteers. " I have to agree Socialised anarchy works and gets the job done. | |||
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"The vaccines work incredibly well against the virus they were designed against. The Omicron variant is so heavily mutated, especially in the spike protein, that it is very obvious to anyone who understands immunology that the vaccines will be less effective against it. Less effective does not mean ineffective though. At all junctures, the vaccine designers have said that the specific antigen within the vaccines will need to be amended seasonally, just like with the flu vaccine. However, due to the sheer amount of worldwide infection, mutations are coming thick and fast and there's only so quickly that amended vaccine can be made. At the outset of this pandemic, conventional wisdom was that jt would take many years to develop vaccines. The progress has been phenomenal. And in the early days of the vaccine rollout, starmer was lampooning boris when he said the programme would get to delivering 1 million per week. Again, the delivery programme has been phenomenal. The delivery programme is only operating on the back of a vast number of volunteers who are giving up a lot of time, for free. It wouldn't be anywhere near where it is now without volunteers. Isn't that a good thing? Communities pulling together to help eachother? It's immensely tiring because many of the volunteers also have jobs, families and other responsibilities. We receive imploring messages and emails constantly, signed by the likes of Jonathan van Tam, asking us to do just a bit more. Some of us have been effectively working two jobs - one FT paid and another PT unpaid, 6 or 7 days a week, weekends and Bank Holidays and when our PM suddenly decides we have to give boosters to everyone by a ridiculously early date, the pressure to do more and more increases. I volunteered to help, to try and speed up the end of the pandemic and in the hope that it would take some pressure off the NHS. However, it's lasted so much longer than even anticipated and I experienced serious burn out. I didn't volunteer over Christmas and New Year. I went on holiday instead but I felt guilty for doing so. So yes, it's wonderful, until the volunteers are taken for granted." Volunteers are almost always taken for granted. And volunteers pretty much always end up burning out and resenting some of what they altruistically were attempting. I think the point is that it has so far been a colossal team effort which shows what can be achieved when we have clarity of purpose and leadership. It's good to volunteer to help your community. It starts being a privelage but ends up being a pain in the arse for many sadly. | |||
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"OP you do make some points, some of which I agree with, others slightly less so. We read a lot about 'big pharma' and 'follow the money' but what do you mean by this? Are you talking about 1 company, 2 companies? all of them? some privately owned some state owned? Im not particurlaly intestested in 'historical issues' I am interested in the response to the pandemic. What have 'big pharma' done that is serious form for lying, deception, malpractice and corruption in regards to the pandemic? Multiple vaccines have been produced from multiple Pharma companies/state run Pharma in response to the global pandemic. Of course Zillions of Pounds have been thrown at it by governments of all persuasions and of course some vaccines have proven not to be as effective as hoped, yet effective they have been at reducing the death toll. So for me (and I know its my opinion) saying follow the money (to big pharma) in this case doesnt hold water. Im not denying that 'big pharma' have history for lobbing governemnt, what large industry doesnt? Big Energy, Big Oil, Big Tech etc etc. Where follow the money does hold water, is where these PPE/Testing/Support companies sprung up after the pandemic started and were handed hundreds of millions of pounds worth of contracts to supply govment depsite never having produced any PPE EVER or even done testing. Just happened to be friends of certain politicians. So yes this pandemic is a corruption and exploitationist wet dream and that money does need to be followed with criminal charges is evidence of corruption found. Have our leaders been corrupt, if not provable legally then definately morally. Too many underhand 'old boys' network arrangements going on. I wouldnt hold your breath on any kind of Judicial enquiry holding the govmnt to account. When does that ever happen? And no coincidence that the Tories are forcing through legislation which will enable Ministers to disregard the findings of any judicial enquiries. If the Tories know anything it is how to look after themselves with disregard to anybody else. Having worked in academia for over 20yrs I do know that Scientists have more integrity in their little finger than our whole Government clumped together. I do trust the scientists to deliver (to the best of their knowledge) the best scientific advice currently available and if that need changing as evidence comes in then so be it, thats science. I do not hold much trust for a word that comes out of the governments mouth. You are right, trust is hard earned and easily lost. In relation to the pandemic 'big pharma' have produced vaccines that have been effective in reducing deaths/hospitalisations(as evidenced around the world) so my trust remains. Government have lied, failed, engaged in corruption and bounced from pillar to post. My trust has completlety gone with them. Great post thanks for engaging in such a thoughtful, considered and polite way. I guess the term “Big Pharma” is probably overused and should be qualified. For me it means those pharmaceutical companies that are so large and powerful (rich) that they have the ability to spend $multi millions lobbying and buying in politicians as consultants, giving them sufficient influence to help steer govt policy to make it more beneficial to themselves. I understand you not wanting to look at historic issues, but I would argue that leopards rarely (never) change their spots. A sector that is rife with corruption, malpractice etc does not overnight become a place of virtue. Probably one of the most recent examples was the SwineFlu vaccine that was developed under similar circumstances by GSK. Article in British Medical Journal... https://www.bmj.com/content/362/bmj.k3948 QUOTE: “...the Department of Health, British Medical Association, and Royal Colleges of General Practitioners, working hard to convince a reluctant NHS workforce to get vaccinated. “We fully support the swine flu vaccination programme … The vaccine has been thoroughly tested,” they declared in a joint statement. Except, it hadn’t. Anticipating a severe influenza pandemic, governments around the world had made various logistical and legal arrangements to shorten the time between recognition of a pandemic virus and the production of a vaccine and administration of that vaccine in the population. In Europe, one element of those plans was an agreement to grant licences to pandemic vaccines based on data from pre-pandemic “mock-up” vaccines produced using a different virus (H5N1 influenza). Another element, adopted by countries such as Canada, the US, UK, France, and Germany, was to provide vaccine manufacturers indemnity from liability for wrongdoing, thereby reducing the risk of a lawsuit stemming from vaccine related injury.” END QUOTE Also have a read in the Financial Times about the current practices of Pfizer. Not exactly paragons of virtue (especially their bullying and black mail of poorer countries)... https://www.ft.com/content/0cea5e3f-d4c4-4ee2-961a-3aa150f388ec I cannot post an extract as the FT has copyright cookies. It is a long read but really worth it. I think there are many reasons why people are not trusting of “Big Pharma” not just governments. " Yeah but they'd never do anything like that again would they....? | |||
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"There's an amazing level of hypocrisy in the pharma conspiracy lobby when it comes to covid, and yet have all their childhood vaccinations, holiday vaccinations and will happily take prescription or over the counter medication for everything else." Playing Devil’s Advocate - Why is it hypocrisy? Are they not allowed to judge each vaccine, drug and medicine on its own merits? Is it all or nothing? Surely a drug that has been in widespread use for 50+ years has more long term data to enable the quantifying of risk vs a “drug” that has only existed for a little over 12-18 months? | |||
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"There's an amazing level of hypocrisy in the pharma conspiracy lobby when it comes to covid, and yet have all their childhood vaccinations, holiday vaccinations and will happily take prescription or over the counter medication for everything else." I suspect the level of scepticism / mistrust of big pharma is not restricted to covid treatments and vaccines. But given there is a worldwide plan to inject the entire population then it is somewhat more motivating to ensure and take responsibility for what goes in our bodies at the request / demand of others. They do good stuff. But they also have done stuff less good. As just one example. Take a look at this... https://youtu.be/SkU75sBdjdU Or search for it yourself...an hbo documentary called the crime of the century. | |||
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"There's an amazing level of hypocrisy in the pharma conspiracy lobby when it comes to covid, and yet have all their childhood vaccinations, holiday vaccinations and will happily take prescription or over the counter medication for everything else. Playing Devil’s Advocate - Why is it hypocrisy? Are they not allowed to judge each vaccine, drug and medicine on its own merits? Is it all or nothing? Surely a drug that has been in widespread use for 50+ years has more long term data to enable the quantifying of risk vs a “drug” that has only existed for a little over 12-18 months? " We also don't have long term data on the effects of covid but we do have a vaccine to provide at least some protection against it. And it's hypocritical in fhe same way the 'freedom of choice' argument is. Its a selective position that ignores all of the other circumstances I'm which people happily comply and happily take medication. You either distrust big pharmacy or you don't. I've yet to see a faintly plausible reason why covid or the vaccine nerit conspiracy status. | |||
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"There's an amazing level of hypocrisy in the pharma conspiracy lobby when it comes to covid, and yet have all their childhood vaccinations, holiday vaccinations and will happily take prescription or over the counter medication for everything else. Playing Devil’s Advocate - Why is it hypocrisy? Are they not allowed to judge each vaccine, drug and medicine on its own merits? Is it all or nothing? Surely a drug that has been in widespread use for 50+ years has more long term data to enable the quantifying of risk vs a “drug” that has only existed for a little over 12-18 months? We also don't have long term data on the effects of covid but we do have a vaccine to provide at least some protection against it. And it's hypocritical in fhe same way the 'freedom of choice' argument is. Its a selective position that ignores all of the other circumstances I'm which people happily comply and happily take medication. You either distrust big pharmacy or you don't. I've yet to see a faintly plausible reason why covid or the vaccine nerit conspiracy status." Interesting. Your first point makes sense but your second point surely ignores that personal choice is precisely that, a personal choice? | |||
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"There's an amazing level of hypocrisy in the pharma conspiracy lobby when it comes to covid, and yet have all their childhood vaccinations, holiday vaccinations and will happily take prescription or over the counter medication for everything else. Playing Devil’s Advocate - Why is it hypocrisy? Are they not allowed to judge each vaccine, drug and medicine on its own merits? Is it all or nothing? Surely a drug that has been in widespread use for 50+ years has more long term data to enable the quantifying of risk vs a “drug” that has only existed for a little over 12-18 months? We also don't have long term data on the effects of covid but we do have a vaccine to provide at least some protection against it. And it's hypocritical in fhe same way the 'freedom of choice' argument is. Its a selective position that ignores all of the other circumstances I'm which people happily comply and happily take medication. You either distrust big pharmacy or you don't. I've yet to see a faintly plausible reason why covid or the vaccine nerit conspiracy status. Interesting. Your first point makes sense but your second point surely ignores that personal choice is precisely that, a personal choice?" No, because there's all sorts of ways in which we don't have freedom of choice or agency over our bodies, because we don't exist in an individual vacuum. We coexist alongside each other in society. We don't have the freedom of choice to drink drive, or ingest whatever substances we want in our bodies. The freedom of choice argument seems to go hand in hand with freedom of consequence and that's problematic when there's a social contract in place. | |||
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"There's an amazing level of hypocrisy in the pharma conspiracy lobby when it comes to covid, and yet have all their childhood vaccinations, holiday vaccinations and will happily take prescription or over the counter medication for everything else. Playing Devil’s Advocate - Why is it hypocrisy? Are they not allowed to judge each vaccine, drug and medicine on its own merits? Is it all or nothing? Surely a drug that has been in widespread use for 50+ years has more long term data to enable the quantifying of risk vs a “drug” that has only existed for a little over 12-18 months? We also don't have long term data on the effects of covid but we do have a vaccine to provide at least some protection against it. And it's hypocritical in fhe same way the 'freedom of choice' argument is. Its a selective position that ignores all of the other circumstances I'm which people happily comply and happily take medication. You either distrust big pharmacy or you don't. I've yet to see a faintly plausible reason why covid or the vaccine nerit conspiracy status. Interesting. Your first point makes sense but your second point surely ignores that personal choice is precisely that, a personal choice? No, because there's all sorts of ways in which we don't have freedom of choice or agency over our bodies, because we don't exist in an individual vacuum. We coexist alongside each other in society. We don't have the freedom of choice to drink drive, or ingest whatever substances we want in our bodies. The freedom of choice argument seems to go hand in hand with freedom of consequence and that's problematic when there's a social contract in place." I have to agree my choice to walk in the park and the consequence is dog turd on the shoe. | |||
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"There's an amazing level of hypocrisy in the pharma conspiracy lobby when it comes to covid, and yet have all their childhood vaccinations, holiday vaccinations and will happily take prescription or over the counter medication for everything else. Playing Devil’s Advocate - Why is it hypocrisy? Are they not allowed to judge each vaccine, drug and medicine on its own merits? Is it all or nothing? Surely a drug that has been in widespread use for 50+ years has more long term data to enable the quantifying of risk vs a “drug” that has only existed for a little over 12-18 months? We also don't have long term data on the effects of covid but we do have a vaccine to provide at least some protection against it. And it's hypocritical in fhe same way the 'freedom of choice' argument is. Its a selective position that ignores all of the other circumstances I'm which people happily comply and happily take medication. You either distrust big pharmacy or you don't. I've yet to see a faintly plausible reason why covid or the vaccine nerit conspiracy status. Interesting. Your first point makes sense but your second point surely ignores that personal choice is precisely that, a personal choice? No, because there's all sorts of ways in which we don't have freedom of choice or agency over our bodies, because we don't exist in an individual vacuum. We coexist alongside each other in society. We don't have the freedom of choice to drink drive, or ingest whatever substances we want in our bodies. The freedom of choice argument seems to go hand in hand with freedom of consequence and that's problematic when there's a social contract in place." I think there is a subtle difference between “freedom of choice” and “personal choice” with the former implying there is potentially no need to abide by laws (ie drink drive) which is clearly wrong and the latter about deciding what medication we are prepared to have put into our bodies. I would argue that this latter point is possibly currently one of the only areas where we do in fact have agency (clearly not if the vaccines become mandated). | |||
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"I know for some it's quite hard to believe those we have trusted forever with our medication might have done something untoward. But for anyone interested in a bit of a more 360 degree view... https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2021/may/10/opioid-crisis-alex-gibney-the-crime-of-the-century " Interesting and damning read. Yet people still seem to trust pharma without question when it comes to the Covid vaccines? Surely those who do can understand why there are people who don’t? | |||
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"There's an amazing level of hypocrisy in the pharma conspiracy lobby when it comes to covid, and yet have all their childhood vaccinations, holiday vaccinations and will happily take prescription or over the counter medication for everything else. Playing Devil’s Advocate - Why is it hypocrisy? Are they not allowed to judge each vaccine, drug and medicine on its own merits? Is it all or nothing? Surely a drug that has been in widespread use for 50+ years has more long term data to enable the quantifying of risk vs a “drug” that has only existed for a little over 12-18 months? We also don't have long term data on the effects of covid but we do have a vaccine to provide at least some protection against it. And it's hypocritical in fhe same way the 'freedom of choice' argument is. Its a selective position that ignores all of the other circumstances I'm which people happily comply and happily take medication. You either distrust big pharmacy or you don't. I've yet to see a faintly plausible reason why covid or the vaccine nerit conspiracy status. Interesting. Your first point makes sense but your second point surely ignores that personal choice is precisely that, a personal choice? No, because there's all sorts of ways in which we don't have freedom of choice or agency over our bodies, because we don't exist in an individual vacuum. We coexist alongside each other in society. We don't have the freedom of choice to drink drive, or ingest whatever substances we want in our bodies. The freedom of choice argument seems to go hand in hand with freedom of consequence and that's problematic when there's a social contract in place. I think there is a subtle difference between “freedom of choice” and “personal choice” with the former implying there is potentially no need to abide by laws (ie drink drive) which is clearly wrong and the latter about deciding what medication we are prepared to have put into our bodies. I would argue that this latter point is possibly currently one of the only areas where we do in fact have agency (clearly not if the vaccines become mandated)." Sure. But if you want freedom of choice over what medication to put in your body as a principled stance but expect the health service to patch you up when that decision proves unwise, and increases the pressure on resources and beds, then what? Vaccination is about protecting other people, not just yourself. | |||
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"I know for some it's quite hard to believe those we have trusted forever with our medication might have done something untoward. But for anyone interested in a bit of a more 360 degree view... https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2021/may/10/opioid-crisis-alex-gibney-the-crime-of-the-century Interesting and damning read. Yet people still seem to trust pharma without question when it comes to the Covid vaccines? Surely those who do can understand why there are people who don’t?" Totally understand questioning pharmaceutical companies,the problem is pretty much all of people questioning it come across as more untrustworthy than big pharma. Although don't work in pharma I do work in chemicals and the US Is probably the laxest when it comes to rules. Combine that with a health service driven by profits more than anywhere in the western world no wonder it was primed for the opioid crisis. No other country was hit anywhere near as hard. | |||
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"There's an amazing level of hypocrisy in the pharma conspiracy lobby when it comes to covid, and yet have all their childhood vaccinations, holiday vaccinations and will happily take prescription or over the counter medication for everything else. Playing Devil’s Advocate - Why is it hypocrisy? Are they not allowed to judge each vaccine, drug and medicine on its own merits? Is it all or nothing? Surely a drug that has been in widespread use for 50+ years has more long term data to enable the quantifying of risk vs a “drug” that has only existed for a little over 12-18 months? We also don't have long term data on the effects of covid but we do have a vaccine to provide at least some protection against it. And it's hypocritical in fhe same way the 'freedom of choice' argument is. Its a selective position that ignores all of the other circumstances I'm which people happily comply and happily take medication. You either distrust big pharmacy or you don't. I've yet to see a faintly plausible reason why covid or the vaccine nerit conspiracy status. Interesting. Your first point makes sense but your second point surely ignores that personal choice is precisely that, a personal choice? No, because there's all sorts of ways in which we don't have freedom of choice or agency over our bodies, because we don't exist in an individual vacuum. We coexist alongside each other in society. We don't have the freedom of choice to drink drive, or ingest whatever substances we want in our bodies. The freedom of choice argument seems to go hand in hand with freedom of consequence and that's problematic when there's a social contract in place. I think there is a subtle difference between “freedom of choice” and “personal choice” with the former implying there is potentially no need to abide by laws (ie drink drive) which is clearly wrong and the latter about deciding what medication we are prepared to have put into our bodies. I would argue that this latter point is possibly currently one of the only areas where we do in fact have agency (clearly not if the vaccines become mandated). Sure. But if you want freedom of choice over what medication to put in your body as a principled stance but expect the health service to patch you up when that decision proves unwise, and increases the pressure on resources and beds, then what? Vaccination is about protecting other people, not just yourself." I think this is moving away from the point of this thread which is about why people do or do not have trust in govt or pharma. I would like to come back on your point but we will end up taking this thread down the same rabbit hole so many others end up in. | |||
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"I know for some it's quite hard to believe those we have trusted forever with our medication might have done something untoward. But for anyone interested in a bit of a more 360 degree view... https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2021/may/10/opioid-crisis-alex-gibney-the-crime-of-the-century Interesting and damning read. Yet people still seem to trust pharma without question when it comes to the Covid vaccines? Surely those who do can understand why there are people who don’t? Totally understand questioning pharmaceutical companies,the problem is pretty much all of people questioning it come across as more untrustworthy than big pharma. Although don't work in pharma I do work in chemicals and the US Is probably the laxest when it comes to rules. Combine that with a health service driven by profits more than anywhere in the western world no wonder it was primed for the opioid crisis. No other country was hit anywhere near as hard." Who are these people that are questioning it that are even less trustworthy? So far in this thread there have been posts to the British Medical Journal, Financial Times and The Guardian all with rather damning pieces on the behaviour of pharma. Are those sources more untrustworthy? Really? | |||
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"Originally posted this in a thread but thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion (or may just be full of tumble ). Either way... The majority (certainly not all) of the ongoing discussion around the safety of the covid vaccines is down to one thing. A lack of trust. Trust in government. Trust in big pharma. And the problem is that govts (and in particular ours in the UK this past two years) and big pharma have serious form for lying, deception, malpractice and corruption. And yet suddenly because of the pandemic we are told they need to be trusted. When you see govt officials flouting the rules, driving to “test their eyes”, not wearing masks, having parties, playing with their mistress etc some people will wonder what they know that we don’t? It feeds the conspiracies. When you see govt corruption that results in the largest transfer of public assets into private hands in history, some people question their motives. When you have the scientists working for pharma tell you their research and testing is totally sound and that they know xyz about efficacy, dosage/frequency etc only to then have this revised at what would appear to be a convenient moment, some people will have doubts. When you see govt “listening to the science” when it suits but ignoring it when it doesn’t (such as 6 week delay to closing border to India), some people will be concerned our leaders do not really have our best interests at heart. When you see govt pushing legislation through that severely damages/limits our rights, or seeking to change the electoral system in such a way that it only benefits those already in power and doing so during a global public health emergency (ie people are distracted), the some people will be worried about where this is all leading. Trust is very hard to earn (although going by some on here that statement seems completely wrong) and very easy to lose. I have said it many times on here (getting boring I am sure) but always follow the money. While I actually do have confidence the vaccines work (but am bitterly disappointed they don’t work as well as we were told by those we are supposed to trust) I am very sceptical about some of the motives driving policy. There is so much money involved that a public health emergency creates the perfect situation for the corrupt to exploit for their own gain (and we know for fact they did around PPE, LFTs, and other med supplies). The pandemic is a disaster capitalist’s and corrupt opportunist’s wet dream. That makes motives questionable and trust continually gets eroded." The problem I think is this….. Imagine that the issue wasn’t covid….. Imagine that said drug was for “curing cancer “ or “lowering the chances from dementia” I don’t think we are having nearly the pushback as we are from this! | |||
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"Originally posted this in a thread but thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion (or may just be full of tumble ). Either way... The majority (certainly not all) of the ongoing discussion around the safety of the covid vaccines is down to one thing. A lack of trust. Trust in government. Trust in big pharma. And the problem is that govts (and in particular ours in the UK this past two years) and big pharma have serious form for lying, deception, malpractice and corruption. And yet suddenly because of the pandemic we are told they need to be trusted. When you see govt officials flouting the rules, driving to “test their eyes”, not wearing masks, having parties, playing with their mistress etc some people will wonder what they know that we don’t? It feeds the conspiracies. When you see govt corruption that results in the largest transfer of public assets into private hands in history, some people question their motives. When you have the scientists working for pharma tell you their research and testing is totally sound and that they know xyz about efficacy, dosage/frequency etc only to then have this revised at what would appear to be a convenient moment, some people will have doubts. When you see govt “listening to the science” when it suits but ignoring it when it doesn’t (such as 6 week delay to closing border to India), some people will be concerned our leaders do not really have our best interests at heart. When you see govt pushing legislation through that severely damages/limits our rights, or seeking to change the electoral system in such a way that it only benefits those already in power and doing so during a global public health emergency (ie people are distracted), the some people will be worried about where this is all leading. Trust is very hard to earn (although going by some on here that statement seems completely wrong) and very easy to lose. I have said it many times on here (getting boring I am sure) but always follow the money. While I actually do have confidence the vaccines work (but am bitterly disappointed they don’t work as well as we were told by those we are supposed to trust) I am very sceptical about some of the motives driving policy. There is so much money involved that a public health emergency creates the perfect situation for the corrupt to exploit for their own gain (and we know for fact they did around PPE, LFTs, and other med supplies). The pandemic is a disaster capitalist’s and corrupt opportunist’s wet dream. That makes motives questionable and trust continually gets eroded. The problem I think is this….. Imagine that the issue wasn’t covid….. Imagine that said drug was for “curing cancer “ or “lowering the chances from dementia” I don’t think we are having nearly the pushback as we are from this! " Good points but (always a but) to the best of my knowledge neither cancer or dementia are infectious? For that reason there couldn’t be a pandemic that enables some of the points raised that feed the lack of trust? I cannot envisage a scenario where cancer patients would have a treatment mandated (in some countries)? | |||
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"Originally posted this in a thread but thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion (or may just be full of tumble ). Either way... The majority (certainly not all) of the ongoing discussion around the safety of the covid vaccines is down to one thing. A lack of trust. Trust in government. Trust in big pharma. And the problem is that govts (and in particular ours in the UK this past two years) and big pharma have serious form for lying, deception, malpractice and corruption. And yet suddenly because of the pandemic we are told they need to be trusted. When you see govt officials flouting the rules, driving to “test their eyes”, not wearing masks, having parties, playing with their mistress etc some people will wonder what they know that we don’t? It feeds the conspiracies. When you see govt corruption that results in the largest transfer of public assets into private hands in history, some people question their motives. When you have the scientists working for pharma tell you their research and testing is totally sound and that they know xyz about efficacy, dosage/frequency etc only to then have this revised at what would appear to be a convenient moment, some people will have doubts. When you see govt “listening to the science” when it suits but ignoring it when it doesn’t (such as 6 week delay to closing border to India), some people will be concerned our leaders do not really have our best interests at heart. When you see govt pushing legislation through that severely damages/limits our rights, or seeking to change the electoral system in such a way that it only benefits those already in power and doing so during a global public health emergency (ie people are distracted), the some people will be worried about where this is all leading. Trust is very hard to earn (although going by some on here that statement seems completely wrong) and very easy to lose. I have said it many times on here (getting boring I am sure) but always follow the money. While I actually do have confidence the vaccines work (but am bitterly disappointed they don’t work as well as we were told by those we are supposed to trust) I am very sceptical about some of the motives driving policy. There is so much money involved that a public health emergency creates the perfect situation for the corrupt to exploit for their own gain (and we know for fact they did around PPE, LFTs, and other med supplies). The pandemic is a disaster capitalist’s and corrupt opportunist’s wet dream. That makes motives questionable and trust continually gets eroded. The problem I think is this….. Imagine that the issue wasn’t covid….. Imagine that said drug was for “curing cancer “ or “lowering the chances from dementia” I don’t think we are having nearly the pushback as we are from this! Good points but (always a but) to the best of my knowledge neither cancer or dementia are infectious? For that reason there couldn’t be a pandemic that enables some of the points raised that feed the lack of trust? I cannot envisage a scenario where cancer patients would have a treatment mandated (in some countries)?" I was going to come back to this because I think the example of curing cancer would mean a permanency which is an unfair comparison… But if we were to say “drug x” reduces the seriousness of potentially a cancer you may get, and then goes through the trial process at the same speed as this has, I don’t think people scream “my body my choice” as much.. People would be saying medical miracle, how it helps manage healthcare ect ect | |||
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"Originally posted this in a thread but thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion (or may just be full of tumble ). Either way... The majority (certainly not all) of the ongoing discussion around the safety of the covid vaccines is down to one thing. A lack of trust. Trust in government. Trust in big pharma. And the problem is that govts (and in particular ours in the UK this past two years) and big pharma have serious form for lying, deception, malpractice and corruption. And yet suddenly because of the pandemic we are told they need to be trusted. When you see govt officials flouting the rules, driving to “test their eyes”, not wearing masks, having parties, playing with their mistress etc some people will wonder what they know that we don’t? It feeds the conspiracies. When you see govt corruption that results in the largest transfer of public assets into private hands in history, some people question their motives. When you have the scientists working for pharma tell you their research and testing is totally sound and that they know xyz about efficacy, dosage/frequency etc only to then have this revised at what would appear to be a convenient moment, some people will have doubts. When you see govt “listening to the science” when it suits but ignoring it when it doesn’t (such as 6 week delay to closing border to India), some people will be concerned our leaders do not really have our best interests at heart. When you see govt pushing legislation through that severely damages/limits our rights, or seeking to change the electoral system in such a way that it only benefits those already in power and doing so during a global public health emergency (ie people are distracted), the some people will be worried about where this is all leading. Trust is very hard to earn (although going by some on here that statement seems completely wrong) and very easy to lose. I have said it many times on here (getting boring I am sure) but always follow the money. While I actually do have confidence the vaccines work (but am bitterly disappointed they don’t work as well as we were told by those we are supposed to trust) I am very sceptical about some of the motives driving policy. There is so much money involved that a public health emergency creates the perfect situation for the corrupt to exploit for their own gain (and we know for fact they did around PPE, LFTs, and other med supplies). The pandemic is a disaster capitalist’s and corrupt opportunist’s wet dream. That makes motives questionable and trust continually gets eroded. The problem I think is this….. Imagine that the issue wasn’t covid….. Imagine that said drug was for “curing cancer “ or “lowering the chances from dementia” I don’t think we are having nearly the pushback as we are from this! Good points but (always a but) to the best of my knowledge neither cancer or dementia are infectious? For that reason there couldn’t be a pandemic that enables some of the points raised that feed the lack of trust? I cannot envisage a scenario where cancer patients would have a treatment mandated (in some countries)? I was going to come back to this because I think the example of curing cancer would mean a permanency which is an unfair comparison… But if we were to say “drug x” reduces the seriousness of potentially a cancer you may get, and then goes through the trial process at the same speed as this has, I don’t think people scream “my body my choice” as much.. People would be saying medical miracle, how it helps manage healthcare ect ect" It’s an interesting thought but I am not sure. The difference is the lack if transmissibility of cancer and therefore that cancer is all about ME vs Covid vaccines which many people argue is about society as much as me! | |||
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"Originally posted this in a thread but thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion (or may just be full of tumble ). Either way... The majority (certainly not all) of the ongoing discussion around the safety of the covid vaccines is down to one thing. A lack of trust. Trust in government. Trust in big pharma. And the problem is that govts (and in particular ours in the UK this past two years) and big pharma have serious form for lying, deception, malpractice and corruption. And yet suddenly because of the pandemic we are told they need to be trusted. When you see govt officials flouting the rules, driving to “test their eyes”, not wearing masks, having parties, playing with their mistress etc some people will wonder what they know that we don’t? It feeds the conspiracies. When you see govt corruption that results in the largest transfer of public assets into private hands in history, some people question their motives. When you have the scientists working for pharma tell you their research and testing is totally sound and that they know xyz about efficacy, dosage/frequency etc only to then have this revised at what would appear to be a convenient moment, some people will have doubts. When you see govt “listening to the science” when it suits but ignoring it when it doesn’t (such as 6 week delay to closing border to India), some people will be concerned our leaders do not really have our best interests at heart. When you see govt pushing legislation through that severely damages/limits our rights, or seeking to change the electoral system in such a way that it only benefits those already in power and doing so during a global public health emergency (ie people are distracted), the some people will be worried about where this is all leading. Trust is very hard to earn (although going by some on here that statement seems completely wrong) and very easy to lose. I have said it many times on here (getting boring I am sure) but always follow the money. While I actually do have confidence the vaccines work (but am bitterly disappointed they don’t work as well as we were told by those we are supposed to trust) I am very sceptical about some of the motives driving policy. There is so much money involved that a public health emergency creates the perfect situation for the corrupt to exploit for their own gain (and we know for fact they did around PPE, LFTs, and other med supplies). The pandemic is a disaster capitalist’s and corrupt opportunist’s wet dream. That makes motives questionable and trust continually gets eroded. The problem I think is this….. Imagine that the issue wasn’t covid….. Imagine that said drug was for “curing cancer “ or “lowering the chances from dementia” I don’t think we are having nearly the pushback as we are from this! Good points but (always a but) to the best of my knowledge neither cancer or dementia are infectious? For that reason there couldn’t be a pandemic that enables some of the points raised that feed the lack of trust? I cannot envisage a scenario where cancer patients would have a treatment mandated (in some countries)? I was going to come back to this because I think the example of curing cancer would mean a permanency which is an unfair comparison… But if we were to say “drug x” reduces the seriousness of potentially a cancer you may get, and then goes through the trial process at the same speed as this has, I don’t think people scream “my body my choice” as much.. People would be saying medical miracle, how it helps manage healthcare ect ect" If the survival rates of dementia and / or cancer were the same as covid its a different discussion entirely... If the same approach were taken to other diseases who knows what they could cure in the next 18 months. But then is cure as profitable as a lifetime of treatment? | |||
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"Originally posted this in a thread but thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion (or may just be full of tumble ). Either way... The majority (certainly not all) of the ongoing discussion around the safety of the covid vaccines is down to one thing. A lack of trust. Trust in government. Trust in big pharma. And the problem is that govts (and in particular ours in the UK this past two years) and big pharma have serious form for lying, deception, malpractice and corruption. And yet suddenly because of the pandemic we are told they need to be trusted. When you see govt officials flouting the rules, driving to “test their eyes”, not wearing masks, having parties, playing with their mistress etc some people will wonder what they know that we don’t? It feeds the conspiracies. When you see govt corruption that results in the largest transfer of public assets into private hands in history, some people question their motives. When you have the scientists working for pharma tell you their research and testing is totally sound and that they know xyz about efficacy, dosage/frequency etc only to then have this revised at what would appear to be a convenient moment, some people will have doubts. When you see govt “listening to the science” when it suits but ignoring it when it doesn’t (such as 6 week delay to closing border to India), some people will be concerned our leaders do not really have our best interests at heart. When you see govt pushing legislation through that severely damages/limits our rights, or seeking to change the electoral system in such a way that it only benefits those already in power and doing so during a global public health emergency (ie people are distracted), the some people will be worried about where this is all leading. Trust is very hard to earn (although going by some on here that statement seems completely wrong) and very easy to lose. I have said it many times on here (getting boring I am sure) but always follow the money. While I actually do have confidence the vaccines work (but am bitterly disappointed they don’t work as well as we were told by those we are supposed to trust) I am very sceptical about some of the motives driving policy. There is so much money involved that a public health emergency creates the perfect situation for the corrupt to exploit for their own gain (and we know for fact they did around PPE, LFTs, and other med supplies). The pandemic is a disaster capitalist’s and corrupt opportunist’s wet dream. That makes motives questionable and trust continually gets eroded." 60% of those in ICU come from the 9% of the population who are unvaccinated, just how well did you expect the vaccines to be? Agree with everything else though. Trust is hard won and easy lost. | |||
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"Ok. So back in topic. Its common knowledge that pharma operates many unscrupulous practices to drive profit. Doctors are aggressively incentivised to prescribe certain brands as anyone who has ever been a pharmaceutical sales rep will tell you. But in connection to covid vaccines were developed with the large scale global collaboration of virologists and experts across the private and public sector. The idea that all of these people have been prepared to risk their careers and reputations to facilitate an undefined machiavelian scheme by 'big pharma' is incredulous, and it's an odd juncture in history to suddenly provide a pivot point and frankly of the mortality rate of covid was significantly higher then the pharma distrust would evaporate and there would be queues for miles at vaccination centres. " "Big Pharma" didn't even develop the vaccines. The "Pfizer" vaccine was developed by a little German company called BioNTech. The "AZ" vaccine was developed by a team of researchers at Oxford University. The problem is that neither BioNTech nor Oxford University had the ability to mass manufacture vaccines (or anything) on the scale required for global distribution. So, they partnered with a large, global pharmaceutical company (Pfizer and AZ) to scale up manufacture and to distribute the vaccine. The pharmaceutical companies also have the infrastructure for large scale clinical trials, that neither BioNTech nor Oxford University had. Moderna required a partnership with Lonza and 100% of the development costs being borne by various US Government departments to get their vaccine to market. It remains the sole commercial product that Moderna has in the market. Marriages of convenience, beneficial to all organisations in various ways. "Big Pharma" did almost none of the hardcore scientific discovery/development and were simply the "kitchens" and distributors of the end product. | |||
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"Ok. So back in topic. Its common knowledge that pharma operates many unscrupulous practices to drive profit. Doctors are aggressively incentivised to prescribe certain brands as anyone who has ever been a pharmaceutical sales rep will tell you. But in connection to covid vaccines were developed with the large scale global collaboration of virologists and experts across the private and public sector. The idea that all of these people have been prepared to risk their careers and reputations to facilitate an undefined machiavelian scheme by 'big pharma' is incredulous, and it's an odd juncture in history to suddenly provide a pivot point and frankly of the mortality rate of covid was significantly higher then the pharma distrust would evaporate and there would be queues for miles at vaccination centres. "Big Pharma" didn't even develop the vaccines. The "Pfizer" vaccine was developed by a little German company called BioNTech. The "AZ" vaccine was developed by a team of researchers at Oxford University. The problem is that neither BioNTech nor Oxford University had the ability to mass manufacture vaccines (or anything) on the scale required for global distribution. So, they partnered with a large, global pharmaceutical company (Pfizer and AZ) to scale up manufacture and to distribute the vaccine. The pharmaceutical companies also have the infrastructure for large scale clinical trials, that neither BioNTech nor Oxford University had. Moderna required a partnership with Lonza and 100% of the development costs being borne by various US Government departments to get their vaccine to market. It remains the sole commercial product that Moderna has in the market. Marriages of convenience, beneficial to all organisations in various ways. "Big Pharma" did almost none of the hardcore scientific discovery/development and were simply the "kitchens" and distributors of the end product." Yes absolutely. Quite common for Big Pharma to use their financial muscle to buy up smaller innovators. The FT article covers this... https://www.ft.com/content/0cea5e3f-d4c4-4ee2-961a-3aa150f388ec Apologies but I am not clear on the point you are making in relation to trust in pharma and govt though? (It’s early and need tea) | |||
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"Ok. So back in topic. Its common knowledge that pharma operates many unscrupulous practices to drive profit. Doctors are aggressively incentivised to prescribe certain brands as anyone who has ever been a pharmaceutical sales rep will tell you. But in connection to covid vaccines were developed with the large scale global collaboration of virologists and experts across the private and public sector. The idea that all of these people have been prepared to risk their careers and reputations to facilitate an undefined machiavelian scheme by 'big pharma' is incredulous, and it's an odd juncture in history to suddenly provide a pivot point and frankly of the mortality rate of covid was significantly higher then the pharma distrust would evaporate and there would be queues for miles at vaccination centres. "Big Pharma" didn't even develop the vaccines. The "Pfizer" vaccine was developed by a little German company called BioNTech. The "AZ" vaccine was developed by a team of researchers at Oxford University. The problem is that neither BioNTech nor Oxford University had the ability to mass manufacture vaccines (or anything) on the scale required for global distribution. So, they partnered with a large, global pharmaceutical company (Pfizer and AZ) to scale up manufacture and to distribute the vaccine. The pharmaceutical companies also have the infrastructure for large scale clinical trials, that neither BioNTech nor Oxford University had. Moderna required a partnership with Lonza and 100% of the development costs being borne by various US Government departments to get their vaccine to market. It remains the sole commercial product that Moderna has in the market. Marriages of convenience, beneficial to all organisations in various ways. "Big Pharma" did almost none of the hardcore scientific discovery/development and were simply the "kitchens" and distributors of the end product. Yes absolutely. Quite common for Big Pharma to use their financial muscle to buy up smaller innovators. The FT article covers this... https://www.ft.com/content/0cea5e3f-d4c4-4ee2-961a-3aa150f388ec Apologies but I am not clear on the point you are making in relation to trust in pharma and govt though? (It’s early and need tea) " Big Pharma haven't bought up any smaller innovators here. They've formed mutually convenient partnerships. My point is that trying to say "some people don't want this vaccines/believe they're safe cos Big Pharma can't be trusted etc" is false. Big Pharma didn't invent these vaccines. Tiny Pharma did. Big Pharma are profiting, yes, but through being approached by the Tiny Pharma people, not because they've exploited anything or stolen anything or faked anything (which are among myriad accusations about Big Pharma). If people are going to be mistrustful, at least direct it at the right organisations and in the case of Covid vaccines, Big Pharma are just the ones making and distributing someone else's product and taking part of the profit. | |||
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"Ok. So back in topic. Its common knowledge that pharma operates many unscrupulous practices to drive profit. Doctors are aggressively incentivised to prescribe certain brands as anyone who has ever been a pharmaceutical sales rep will tell you. But in connection to covid vaccines were developed with the large scale global collaboration of virologists and experts across the private and public sector. The idea that all of these people have been prepared to risk their careers and reputations to facilitate an undefined machiavelian scheme by 'big pharma' is incredulous, and it's an odd juncture in history to suddenly provide a pivot point and frankly of the mortality rate of covid was significantly higher then the pharma distrust would evaporate and there would be queues for miles at vaccination centres. "Big Pharma" didn't even develop the vaccines. The "Pfizer" vaccine was developed by a little German company called BioNTech. The "AZ" vaccine was developed by a team of researchers at Oxford University. The problem is that neither BioNTech nor Oxford University had the ability to mass manufacture vaccines (or anything) on the scale required for global distribution. So, they partnered with a large, global pharmaceutical company (Pfizer and AZ) to scale up manufacture and to distribute the vaccine. The pharmaceutical companies also have the infrastructure for large scale clinical trials, that neither BioNTech nor Oxford University had. Moderna required a partnership with Lonza and 100% of the development costs being borne by various US Government departments to get their vaccine to market. It remains the sole commercial product that Moderna has in the market. Marriages of convenience, beneficial to all organisations in various ways. "Big Pharma" did almost none of the hardcore scientific discovery/development and were simply the "kitchens" and distributors of the end product. Yes absolutely. Quite common for Big Pharma to use their financial muscle to buy up smaller innovators. The FT article covers this... https://www.ft.com/content/0cea5e3f-d4c4-4ee2-961a-3aa150f388ec Apologies but I am not clear on the point you are making in relation to trust in pharma and govt though? (It’s early and need tea) Big Pharma haven't bought up any smaller innovators here. They've formed mutually convenient partnerships. My point is that trying to say "some people don't want this vaccines/believe they're safe cos Big Pharma can't be trusted etc" is false. Big Pharma didn't invent these vaccines. Tiny Pharma did. Big Pharma are profiting, yes, but through being approached by the Tiny Pharma people, not because they've exploited anything or stolen anything or faked anything (which are among myriad accusations about Big Pharma). If people are going to be mistrustful, at least direct it at the right organisations and in the case of Covid vaccines, Big Pharma are just the ones making and distributing someone else's product and taking part of the profit. " I agree in part but based on the historic actions (some examples were given above) of Big Pharma and the current behaviour of Pfizer towards poorer countries (as detailed in the FT article) I do have sympathy for those who do not trust them. Just because the invention/research was undertaken by specialist innovators it doesn’t mean the power and influence doesn't sit with Big Pharma once they go into partnership. However, with this thread about trust, are you saying you do trust Big Pharma? | |||
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"Ok. So back in topic. Its common knowledge that pharma operates many unscrupulous practices to drive profit. Doctors are aggressively incentivised to prescribe certain brands as anyone who has ever been a pharmaceutical sales rep will tell you. But in connection to covid vaccines were developed with the large scale global collaboration of virologists and experts across the private and public sector. The idea that all of these people have been prepared to risk their careers and reputations to facilitate an undefined machiavelian scheme by 'big pharma' is incredulous, and it's an odd juncture in history to suddenly provide a pivot point and frankly of the mortality rate of covid was significantly higher then the pharma distrust would evaporate and there would be queues for miles at vaccination centres. "Big Pharma" didn't even develop the vaccines. The "Pfizer" vaccine was developed by a little German company called BioNTech. The "AZ" vaccine was developed by a team of researchers at Oxford University. The problem is that neither BioNTech nor Oxford University had the ability to mass manufacture vaccines (or anything) on the scale required for global distribution. So, they partnered with a large, global pharmaceutical company (Pfizer and AZ) to scale up manufacture and to distribute the vaccine. The pharmaceutical companies also have the infrastructure for large scale clinical trials, that neither BioNTech nor Oxford University had. Moderna required a partnership with Lonza and 100% of the development costs being borne by various US Government departments to get their vaccine to market. It remains the sole commercial product that Moderna has in the market. Marriages of convenience, beneficial to all organisations in various ways. "Big Pharma" did almost none of the hardcore scientific discovery/development and were simply the "kitchens" and distributors of the end product. Yes absolutely. Quite common for Big Pharma to use their financial muscle to buy up smaller innovators. The FT article covers this... https://www.ft.com/content/0cea5e3f-d4c4-4ee2-961a-3aa150f388ec Apologies but I am not clear on the point you are making in relation to trust in pharma and govt though? (It’s early and need tea) Big Pharma haven't bought up any smaller innovators here. They've formed mutually convenient partnerships. My point is that trying to say "some people don't want this vaccines/believe they're safe cos Big Pharma can't be trusted etc" is false. Big Pharma didn't invent these vaccines. Tiny Pharma did. Big Pharma are profiting, yes, but through being approached by the Tiny Pharma people, not because they've exploited anything or stolen anything or faked anything (which are among myriad accusations about Big Pharma). If people are going to be mistrustful, at least direct it at the right organisations and in the case of Covid vaccines, Big Pharma are just the ones making and distributing someone else's product and taking part of the profit. I agree in part but based on the historic actions (some examples were given above) of Big Pharma and the current behaviour of Pfizer towards poorer countries (as detailed in the FT article) I do have sympathy for those who do not trust them. Just because the invention/research was undertaken by specialist innovators it doesn’t mean the power and influence doesn't sit with Big Pharma once they go into partnership. However, with this thread about trust, are you saying you do trust Big Pharma?" I neither trust nor mistrust. I assess each situation whereby I need to take medications and decide, based on scientific research and consultation with the appropriate doctor, whether I should or should not take it. I've gone against the "label" on drugs (put there by nasty Mr Big Pharma) and breastfed whilst taking pregabalin. I used my own scientific research skills and consulted with the UK Drugs in Lactation Service to conclude this was safe. I took a brand new drug during my pregnancy, which at that time was in the same phase 4 post approval monitoring phase. My pregnancy outcome was assessed by the company who made the drug (another small pharma organisation, not a Pfizer or AZ). I took it because it was obvious from the mode of action of the drug that it could not be absorbed or cross the placenta, but phase 2/3 studies pretty much exclude all pregnant women without any consideration. Blind trust is not to be given to any situation. However, "research" doesn't mean "Google it and watch any old YouTube video" either. | |||
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"@kinkycouple2020 have not quote posted as thread will get too long and lock and this is an interesting discussion (well I think so anyway). You say you neither trust or mistrust but instead undertake your own research (totally admire that, many people don’t even read the label). Surely if you undertake your own research that indicates a higher level of mistrust than trust in pharma as otherwise wouldn’t you just do what they recommend? Although taking the other extreme if you completely mistrusted you wouldn’t take any drugs? " I like to know what I'm taking. I want to weigh up the benefits and risks. I can only do that via researching the drug properly. As seen in my earlier message, I am willing to go AGAINST the information in the insert in the pack, if research shows that the product information is based on a hyper-cautious approach. I was told by the pain team that my daughter would die if I took pregabalin and breastfed her. I disbelieved them, because I know that there's very little actual research into drugs and breastfeeding. So, I did my own research. I consulted expert pharmacists, the Drugs in Lactation Service of the NHS and assessed the pharmacology of pregabalin. I am only able to do the latter because of my educational background. I decided to take the drug AND breastfeed because all the evidence in front of me said the risks to my daughter were absolutely minute. I have worked for "Big Pharma". I have no specific trust or mistrust but I do trust in my own ability to decide what I should or should not take. I do have a level of skepticism about some information given out by the drug manufacturers but it's more likely that advice from them is OVER CAUTIOUS, rather than blasé. | |||
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"I know for some it's quite hard to believe those we have trusted forever with our medication might have done something untoward. But for anyone interested in a bit of a more 360 degree view... https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2021/may/10/opioid-crisis-alex-gibney-the-crime-of-the-century Interesting and damning read. Yet people still seem to trust pharma without question when it comes to the Covid vaccines? Surely those who do can understand why there are people who don’t?" But that's your choice, you choose not to trust them, fine. Why are you concerned if some people do, that's their choice. You have that right but so do they. Seems like you feel the need to push views and preach under the cloak of "lets discuss". Just accept that people won't always have your views. We live in a democracy and the government has been voted in and we also live within a capitalist society and profit is therefore king. That hasn't changed in 2 years, Covid has nowt to do with it. | |||
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"I know for some it's quite hard to believe those we have trusted forever with our medication might have done something untoward. But for anyone interested in a bit of a more 360 degree view... https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2021/may/10/opioid-crisis-alex-gibney-the-crime-of-the-century Interesting and damning read. Yet people still seem to trust pharma without question when it comes to the Covid vaccines? Surely those who do can understand why there are people who don’t? But that's your choice, you choose not to trust them, fine. Why are you concerned if some people do, that's their choice. You have that right but so do they. Seems like you feel the need to push views and preach under the cloak of "lets discuss". Just accept that people won't always have your views. We live in a democracy and the government has been voted in and we also live within a capitalist society and profit is therefore king. That hasn't changed in 2 years, Covid has nowt to do with it." . Your opening point is a fair challenge. It’s hard to always word things in such a way that facilitates rather than drives discussion. | |||
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"You make some fair points but where I struggle is with the blind conviction of the conspiracy theorists in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary of their thinking. I had a guy send me an unsolicited message because of my pro vaccination stance attempting to persuade me that covid was a con. I sarcastically asked him if he believed that man had walked on the moon. He sent me a long rambling message about how that was all faked as well. I assume he spends much of his life searching for 'evidence' that nothing that is generally believed is true. It's these people that I have the biggest problem with. Conspiracy theorists actually believe what they are saying and are as vocal about it as those that can see the holes in their views. The internet makes a perfect place for amplification, meanwhile in the real world I'm lucky to not know 1 person who holds the views of the conspiracy theorists. For once the real world wins " Remember that most people who have avoided the vaccine aren’t generally conspiracy theorists. Most just have something that doesn’t ring true as to why they avoid it. Of course you have your regular idiots who believe every doctored photo or ‘expert opinion, just as you have countless sheep who follow the narrative of the establishment (which ONLY works to protect and further itself) blindly, but everyone who has avoided the vaccine thus far is not an anti-vaxxer or conspiracy theorist. Everyone has taken, or avoided, the vaccine thus far for their own personal reasons. | |||
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"@paranddev great points and yes it is more “big corporates” not just “big pharma” and there is indeed a very long and sorry list of terrible things they have done in the name of the almighty $ I wonder whether there is more “animated debate” about the activities of pharma rather than other sectors (ie the wider/general public beyond interest groups/protesters etc) bevause the product(s) are more “personal”. ie we put these things into our bodies in the hope of curing us of something so the trust needs to be higher than, say, an oil company (which generally impacts people “over there” but not me directly)?" I think there's probably a fair amount of truth in that. Hit us right where we're vulnerable, both with marketing ploys and in other ways. I think it would be better if healthcare were much more dissociated from corporate or profit motives, but that would be a massive shift in the way the world is run, one I can't see gaining much traction. | |||
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"I wouldn't say the majority have a lack of trust .. only the easily lead minority! " Interesting. So from that I assume you trust govt and pharma completely? Can you say more about why? | |||
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"I wouldn't say the majority have a lack of trust .. only the easily lead minority! Interesting. So from that I assume you trust govt and pharma completely? Can you say more about why?" Perhaps a sensible majority know when to trust and when to question. A small minority have been programmed to trust dubious sources | |||
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"a local coroner who stated he had been told to "record deaths as covid related wherever possible", ." This is all made up nonsense. Coroners don't accept orders from anyone except maybe the monarch. Mess with a coroner and they'll throw you in prison pdq. | |||
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"a local coroner who stated he had been told to "record deaths as covid related wherever possible", . This is all made up nonsense. Coroners don't accept orders from anyone except maybe the monarch " Where did hear that utter nonsense | |||
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"I wouldn't say the majority have a lack of trust .. only the easily lead minority! Interesting. So from that I assume you trust govt and pharma completely? Can you say more about why? Perhaps a sensible majority know when to trust and when to question. A small minority have been programmed to trust dubious sources " Wearing my neutral hat I would argue that your statement is both subjective and biased. Clearly someone with a diametrically opposed view would say the opposite | |||
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"a local coroner who stated he had been told to "record deaths as covid related wherever possible", . This is all made up nonsense. Coroners don't accept orders from anyone except maybe the monarch Where did hear that utter nonsense "It is almost certainly nonsense. Who on earth would tell a coroner to do this? 99% of deaths covid deaths don't involve a coroner. | |||
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" Where did hear that utter nonsense "Whilst it might've been slightly exaggerated, you don't fuck with coroners. Source: work in pathology. And since vast majority of deaths don't require a coroner you are most certainly making shit up, muppet. | |||
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" Where did hear that utter nonsense
Whilst it might've been slightly exaggerated, you don't fuck with coroners. Source: work in pathology.
And since vast majority of deaths don't require a coroner you are most certainly making shit up, muppet."Charming, showing your level of understanding and reading ability. I know of ONE coroner told this, no mention of 'majority of deaths'... think what you like but keep your insults to yourself. | |||
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" . I know of ONE coroner told this, no mention of 'majority of deaths'... think what you like but keep your insults to yourself." No, you don't of any coroners told this. You're making stuff up. Pathetic. | |||
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"a local coroner who stated he had been told to "record deaths as covid related wherever possible", . This is all made up nonsense. " Agreed, complete falsehood.. The mods should delete such deliberate misinformation designed to bolster anti vaccination conspiracies.. | |||
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"a local coroner who stated he had been told to "record deaths as covid related wherever possible", . This is all made up nonsense. Agreed, complete falsehood.. The mods should delete such deliberate misinformation designed to bolster anti vaccination conspiracies.. " Agree. It's akin to a judge being told to rule a certain way. And then admitting to it? Didn't happen. | |||
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"Its possibly the most balanced challenge to whats going on Ive seen online. It's neither anti-vax nor anti-narrative. So I would say it presents a window to ponder without going anywhere near the rabbit holes of conspiracy theories. " What is? Which post? | |||
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"Originally posted this in a thread but thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion (or may just be full of tumble ). Either way... The majority (certainly not all) of the ongoing discussion around the safety of the covid vaccines is down to one thing. A lack of trust. Trust in government. Trust in big pharma. And the problem is that govts (and in particular ours in the UK this past two years) and big pharma have serious form for lying, deception, malpractice and corruption. And yet suddenly because of the pandemic we are told they need to be trusted. When you see govt officials flouting the rules, driving to “test their eyes”, not wearing masks, having parties, playing with their mistress etc some people will wonder what they know that we don’t? It feeds the conspiracies. When you see govt corruption that results in the largest transfer of public assets into private hands in history, some people question their motives. When you have the scientists working for pharma tell you their research and testing is totally sound and that they know xyz about efficacy, dosage/frequency etc only to then have this revised at what would appear to be a convenient moment, some people will have doubts. When you see govt “listening to the science” when it suits but ignoring it when it doesn’t (such as 6 week delay to closing border to India), some people will be concerned our leaders do not really have our best interests at heart. When you see govt pushing legislation through that severely damages/limits our rights, or seeking to change the electoral system in such a way that it only benefits those already in power and doing so during a global public health emergency (ie people are distracted), the some people will be worried about where this is all leading. Trust is very hard to earn (although going by some on here that statement seems completely wrong) and very easy to lose. I have said it many times on here (getting boring I am sure) but always follow the money. While I actually do have confidence the vaccines work (but am bitterly disappointed they don’t work as well as we were told by those we are supposed to trust) I am very sceptical about some of the motives driving policy. There is so much money involved that a public health emergency creates the perfect situation for the corrupt to exploit for their own gain (and we know for fact they did around PPE, LFTs, and other med supplies). The pandemic is a disaster capitalist’s and corrupt opportunist’s wet dream. That makes motives questionable and trust continually gets eroded. Untill it became popular big pharma were just drug developers and makers.no different in bussiness to apple ,tesla ,bmw etc If you dont like them dont take ANY drugs. I,m alive because of so callsx big pharma and thank fuck ." Yes but alive for how much longer because of that blind trust… praying that you wake up soon! God bless you… | |||
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" If you dont like them dont take ANY drugs. I,m alive because of so callsx big pharma and thank fuck . Yes but alive for how much longer because of that blind trust… praying that you wake up soon! God bless you… " Aaaaaaand it's bingo! Many people rely on long term medication to live. Like insulin. Or thyroxine. To suggest that they take it due to some blind trust in evil corporations is not only ridiculous, it's also rather insulting to the people who rely on said medication to survive. If you've ever taken a single over the counter or prescribed medication, cream, spray, lozenge or tablet, you've taken a "big pharma" product. If you use Veet or similar waxes, use Cillit Bang or take a Lemsip sachet, or buy a host of other well known personal care products, you bought "big pharma". All this "wake up" nonsense is so  | |||
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" If you dont like them dont take ANY drugs. I,m alive because of so callsx big pharma and thank fuck . Yes but alive for how much longer because of that blind trust… praying that you wake up soon! God bless you… Aaaaaaand it's bingo! Many people rely on long term medication to live. Like insulin. Or thyroxine. To suggest that they take it due to some blind trust in evil corporations is not only ridiculous, it's also rather insulting to the people who rely on said medication to survive. If you've ever taken a single over the counter or prescribed medication, cream, spray, lozenge or tablet, you've taken a "big pharma" product. If you use Veet or similar waxes, use Cillit Bang or take a Lemsip sachet, or buy a host of other well known personal care products, you bought "big pharma". All this "wake up" nonsense is so "Just trying to warn you as to what is really happening in the world at the minute and we genuinely mean this, yes you do not have to listen and yes you can laugh at us if you want but if a house was on fire would you try to warn others or not ? Thanks for listening, please even just look up the term World Economic Forum in Google… thanks | |||
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" If you dont like them dont take ANY drugs. I,m alive because of so callsx big pharma and thank fuck . Yes but alive for how much longer because of that blind trust… praying that you wake up soon! God bless you… Aaaaaaand it's bingo! Many people rely on long term medication to live. Like insulin. Or thyroxine. To suggest that they take it due to some blind trust in evil corporations is not only ridiculous, it's also rather insulting to the people who rely on said medication to survive. If you've ever taken a single over the counter or prescribed medication, cream, spray, lozenge or tablet, you've taken a "big pharma" product. If you use Veet or similar waxes, use Cillit Bang or take a Lemsip sachet, or buy a host of other well known personal care products, you bought "big pharma". All this "wake up" nonsense is so
Just trying to warn you as to what is really happening in the world at the minute and we genuinely mean this, yes you do not have to listen and yes you can laugh at us if you want but if a house was on fire would you try to warn others or not ? Thanks for listening, please even just look up the term World Economic Forum in Google… thanks "I think you two need to really worry about what they put in water supplies and the chemtrails. They will get you in the end | |||
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"OP it's people like you asking questions that the world needs more of. It's everyone's best interest to thank discussion starters and ask further questions. I feel that no matter what your belief on this topic is, discussions need to be had continuously, people's reasonings to be pro or against need to be respected and at all costs we need to look out for one another and respect one another to avoid a further divide. A really amazing show I watched recently was a true story about the rise of Oxycontin and it blew my mind at how big pharma can knowingly cause damage if they desire profit over safety. Anyone interested, watch it, Micheal Keaton is great in it! As for the initial thread point, trust your gut, respect each others guts, we are all walking our own path
I forgot to add the show name it's Dopesick.. haha oops."Another good watch is The Bleeding Edge. Quite frightening really. | |||
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"As usual lots of opinions and deep 'beliefs' based on what folk have witnessed on TV and the internet. Have we in general ever trusted politicians and the government ?, no. Is this the same in most if not all other countries ?, yes. Should we trust big pharma not to put profit way above openness and truth, no. Evidence of this is everywhere and I for one know it to be true from first hand experience. Conspiracy theorists ?. Yes of course the world is full of nutters but what of those who have spoken directly (or indirectly via one trusted friend, no chain involved) to - those working in hospitals, a nurse, a surgeon, manager of a large care home, funeral directors, a local coroner who stated he had been told to "record deaths as covid related wherever possible", pharmaceutical employees (including a plant operator, a scientist and a virologist), relatives of those who died of natural causes when expected and showed zero covid symptoms yet labeled 'covid death', a lady frighteningly tested 'positive' when she hadn't even taken a test (turned away from PCR test centre as the computers had gone down) and so on... Do you think these 'real' people would be daft enough to identify themselves and speak out against the huge wave of Govt and media ?, no." . So you’ve got nothing to back any of that up | |||
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"Originally posted this in a thread but thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion (or may just be full of tumble ). Either way... The majority (certainly not all) of the ongoing discussion around the safety of the covid vaccines is down to one thing. A lack of trust. Trust in government. Trust in big pharma. And the problem is that govts (and in particular ours in the UK this past two years) and big pharma have serious form for lying, deception, malpractice and corruption. And yet suddenly because of the pandemic we are told they need to be trusted. When you see govt officials flouting the rules, driving to “test their eyes”, not wearing masks, having parties, playing with their mistress etc some people will wonder what they know that we don’t? It feeds the conspiracies. When you see govt corruption that results in the largest transfer of public assets into private hands in history, some people question their motives. When you have the scientists working for pharma tell you their research and testing is totally sound and that they know xyz about efficacy, dosage/frequency etc only to then have this revised at what would appear to be a convenient moment, some people will have doubts. When you see govt “listening to the science” when it suits but ignoring it when it doesn’t (such as 6 week delay to closing border to India), some people will be concerned our leaders do not really have our best interests at heart. When you see govt pushing legislation through that severely damages/limits our rights, or seeking to change the electoral system in such a way that it only benefits those already in power and doing so during a global public health emergency (ie people are distracted), the some people will be worried about where this is all leading. Trust is very hard to earn (although going by some on here that statement seems completely wrong) and very easy to lose. I have said it many times on here (getting boring I am sure) but always follow the money. While I actually do have confidence the vaccines work (but am bitterly disappointed they don’t work as well as we were told by those we are supposed to trust) I am very sceptical about some of the motives driving policy. There is so much money involved that a public health emergency creates the perfect situation for the corrupt to exploit for their own gain (and we know for fact they did around PPE, LFTs, and other med supplies). The pandemic is a disaster capitalist’s and corrupt opportunist’s wet dream. That makes motives questionable and trust continually gets eroded." Once again this? Unconnected matters. Some true. Some not. Joining them up as if they are coordinated. The fact that the government is incompetent and corrupt does not mean that they are deliberately recommending unnecessary boosters. The fact that the government gave dodgy PPE contracts does not mean they are giving dodgy vaccine contracts. One dodgy pharmaceutical company does not mean every single one is. Many small pharmaceutical companies and academic institutions and state bodies developed multiple vaccines independently. What's the link? Why is every single government and country on the planet saying and doing the same thing now when they never have in the history of the world? Are all medical staff everywhere in the world lying or have they been hoodwinked? Is all the data everywhere in the world being simultaneously falsified? This is a conspiracy theory, however much you don't like using the phrase because it makes it sound foolish. An assumption of how people and events are causally interconnected or form some pattern The conspirators are intentional in their actions. A group of dishonest, bad actors are working in conjunction towards a goal (lone wolf explanations do not meet the definition of a conspiracy theory) There is threat of harm to others from the conspirators. The conspirators act in secrecy, which explains why there is often sparse evidence and also make them hard to disprove. A small group have "secret" knowledge despite this all powerful conspiracy controlling and coordinating everything. Everyone else is foolish and naive | |||
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"Originally posted this in a thread but thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion (or may just be full of tumble ). Either way... The majority (certainly not all) of the ongoing discussion around the safety of the covid vaccines is down to one thing. A lack of trust. Trust in government. Trust in big pharma. And the problem is that govts (and in particular ours in the UK this past two years) and big pharma have serious form for lying, deception, malpractice and corruption. And yet suddenly because of the pandemic we are told they need to be trusted. When you see govt officials flouting the rules, driving to “test their eyes”, not wearing masks, having parties, playing with their mistress etc some people will wonder what they know that we don’t? It feeds the conspiracies. When you see govt corruption that results in the largest transfer of public assets into private hands in history, some people question their motives. When you have the scientists working for pharma tell you their research and testing is totally sound and that they know xyz about efficacy, dosage/frequency etc only to then have this revised at what would appear to be a convenient moment, some people will have doubts. When you see govt “listening to the science” when it suits but ignoring it when it doesn’t (such as 6 week delay to closing border to India), some people will be concerned our leaders do not really have our best interests at heart. When you see govt pushing legislation through that severely damages/limits our rights, or seeking to change the electoral system in such a way that it only benefits those already in power and doing so during a global public health emergency (ie people are distracted), the some people will be worried about where this is all leading. Trust is very hard to earn (although going by some on here that statement seems completely wrong) and very easy to lose. I have said it many times on here (getting boring I am sure) but always follow the money. While I actually do have confidence the vaccines work (but am bitterly disappointed they don’t work as well as we were told by those we are supposed to trust) I am very sceptical about some of the motives driving policy. There is so much money involved that a public health emergency creates the perfect situation for the corrupt to exploit for their own gain (and we know for fact they did around PPE, LFTs, and other med supplies). The pandemic is a disaster capitalist’s and corrupt opportunist’s wet dream. That makes motives questionable and trust continually gets eroded. Once again this? Unconnected matters. Some true. Some not. Joining them up as if they are coordinated. The fact that the government is incompetent and corrupt does not mean that they are deliberately recommending unnecessary boosters. The fact that the government gave dodgy PPE contracts does not mean they are giving dodgy vaccine contracts. One dodgy pharmaceutical company does not mean every single one is. Many small pharmaceutical companies and academic institutions and state bodies developed multiple vaccines independently. What's the link? Why is every single government and country on the planet saying and doing the same thing now when they never have in the history of the world? Are all medical staff everywhere in the world lying or have they been hoodwinked? Is all the data everywhere in the world being simultaneously falsified? This is a conspiracy theory, however much you don't like using the phrase because it makes it sound foolish. An assumption of how people and events are causally interconnected or form some pattern The conspirators are intentional in their actions. A group of dishonest, bad actors are working in conjunction towards a goal (lone wolf explanations do not meet the definition of a conspiracy theory) There is threat of harm to others from the conspirators. The conspirators act in secrecy, which explains why there is often sparse evidence and also make them hard to disprove. A small group have "secret" knowledge despite this all powerful conspiracy controlling and coordinating everything. Everyone else is foolish and naive" Every single government and country on the planet is not saying and doing the same thing. | |||
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" Are all medical staff everywhere in the world lying or have they been hoodwinked? Is all the data everywhere in the world being simultaneously falsified? " The answer to both those questions is no. But you already know that. Are all bank staff crooked because there are people at head office turning a blind eye to money laundering? No. Your ridiculous 'worst-case scenarios', to make the poster sound more extreme than they actually are, are getting tiresome. | |||
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"Follow the money. Indeed!" agree - and it has now become very apparent that the vaccines were and continue to be oversold. | |||
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"Originally posted this in a thread but thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion (or may just be full of tumble ). Either way... The majority (certainly not all) of the ongoing discussion around the safety of the covid vaccines is down to one thing. A lack of trust. Trust in government. Trust in big pharma. And the problem is that govts (and in particular ours in the UK this past two years) and big pharma have serious form for lying, deception, malpractice and corruption. And yet suddenly because of the pandemic we are told they need to be trusted. When you see govt officials flouting the rules, driving to “test their eyes”, not wearing masks, having parties, playing with their mistress etc some people will wonder what they know that we don’t? It feeds the conspiracies. When you see govt corruption that results in the largest transfer of public assets into private hands in history, some people question their motives. When you have the scientists working for pharma tell you their research and testing is totally sound and that they know xyz about efficacy, dosage/frequency etc only to then have this revised at what would appear to be a convenient moment, some people will have doubts. When you see govt “listening to the science” when it suits but ignoring it when it doesn’t (such as 6 week delay to closing border to India), some people will be concerned our leaders do not really have our best interests at heart. When you see govt pushing legislation through that severely damages/limits our rights, or seeking to change the electoral system in such a way that it only benefits those already in power and doing so during a global public health emergency (ie people are distracted), the some people will be worried about where this is all leading. Trust is very hard to earn (although going by some on here that statement seems completely wrong) and very easy to lose. I have said it many times on here (getting boring I am sure) but always follow the money. While I actually do have confidence the vaccines work (but am bitterly disappointed they don’t work as well as we were told by those we are supposed to trust) I am very sceptical about some of the motives driving policy. There is so much money involved that a public health emergency creates the perfect situation for the corrupt to exploit for their own gain (and we know for fact they did around PPE, LFTs, and other med supplies). The pandemic is a disaster capitalist’s and corrupt opportunist’s wet dream. That makes motives questionable and trust continually gets eroded. Once again this? Unconnected matters. Some true. Some not. Joining them up as if they are coordinated. The fact that the government is incompetent and corrupt does not mean that they are deliberately recommending unnecessary boosters. The fact that the government gave dodgy PPE contracts does not mean they are giving dodgy vaccine contracts. One dodgy pharmaceutical company does not mean every single one is. Many small pharmaceutical companies and academic institutions and state bodies developed multiple vaccines independently. What's the link? Why is every single government and country on the planet saying and doing the same thing now when they never have in the history of the world? Are all medical staff everywhere in the world lying or have they been hoodwinked? Is all the data everywhere in the world being simultaneously falsified? This is a conspiracy theory, however much you don't like using the phrase because it makes it sound foolish. An assumption of how people and events are causally interconnected or form some pattern The conspirators are intentional in their actions. A group of dishonest, bad actors are working in conjunction towards a goal (lone wolf explanations do not meet the definition of a conspiracy theory) There is threat of harm to others from the conspirators. The conspirators act in secrecy, which explains why there is often sparse evidence and also make them hard to disprove. A small group have "secret" knowledge despite this all powerful conspiracy controlling and coordinating everything. Everyone else is foolish and naive Every single government and country on the planet is not saying and doing the same thing." Really? Which ones think that vaccines are a bad idea? Which ones do not want boosters if they can get them? | |||
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" Are all medical staff everywhere in the world lying or have they been hoodwinked? Is all the data everywhere in the world being simultaneously falsified? The answer to both those questions is no. But you already know that. Are all bank staff crooked because there are people at head office turning a blind eye to money laundering? No. Your ridiculous 'worst-case scenarios', to make the poster sound more extreme than they actually are, are getting tiresome." It's not a "worst case scenario". It's what's required for this connection of dots to be joined. It's the only way to back your theory that vaccines are unnecessary and that Covid is not really a significant medical problem. Take your choice. | |||
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"There's an amazing level of hypocrisy in the pharma conspiracy lobby when it comes to covid, and yet have all their childhood vaccinations, holiday vaccinations and will happily take prescription or over the counter medication for everything else." The timing is different, look up and greatly research the World Economic Forums vision for the people of the world and you will soon get your eyes opened, and before you label me as a conspiracy theorist remember we all believed in Santa Claus at one stage in our lives !! please please just take the time to check out what millions of people are waking up to ! thank you | |||
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"Originally posted this in a thread but thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion (or may just be full of tumble ). Either way... The majority (certainly not all) of the ongoing discussion around the safety of the covid vaccines is down to one thing. A lack of trust. Trust in government. Trust in big pharma. And the problem is that govts (and in particular ours in the UK this past two years) and big pharma have serious form for lying, deception, malpractice and corruption. And yet suddenly because of the pandemic we are told they need to be trusted. When you see govt officials flouting the rules, driving to “test their eyes”, not wearing masks, having parties, playing with their mistress etc some people will wonder what they know that we don’t? It feeds the conspiracies. When you see govt corruption that results in the largest transfer of public assets into private hands in history, some people question their motives. When you have the scientists working for pharma tell you their research and testing is totally sound and that they know xyz about efficacy, dosage/frequency etc only to then have this revised at what would appear to be a convenient moment, some people will have doubts. When you see govt “listening to the science” when it suits but ignoring it when it doesn’t (such as 6 week delay to closing border to India), some people will be concerned our leaders do not really have our best interests at heart. When you see govt pushing legislation through that severely damages/limits our rights, or seeking to change the electoral system in such a way that it only benefits those already in power and doing so during a global public health emergency (ie people are distracted), the some people will be worried about where this is all leading. Trust is very hard to earn (although going by some on here that statement seems completely wrong) and very easy to lose. I have said it many times on here (getting boring I am sure) but always follow the money. While I actually do have confidence the vaccines work (but am bitterly disappointed they don’t work as well as we were told by those we are supposed to trust) I am very sceptical about some of the motives driving policy. There is so much money involved that a public health emergency creates the perfect situation for the corrupt to exploit for their own gain (and we know for fact they did around PPE, LFTs, and other med supplies). The pandemic is a disaster capitalist’s and corrupt opportunist’s wet dream. That makes motives questionable and trust continually gets eroded. Once again this? Unconnected matters. Some true. Some not. Joining them up as if they are coordinated. The fact that the government is incompetent and corrupt does not mean that they are deliberately recommending unnecessary boosters. The fact that the government gave dodgy PPE contracts does not mean they are giving dodgy vaccine contracts. One dodgy pharmaceutical company does not mean every single one is. Many small pharmaceutical companies and academic institutions and state bodies developed multiple vaccines independently. What's the link? Why is every single government and country on the planet saying and doing the same thing now when they never have in the history of the world? Are all medical staff everywhere in the world lying or have they been hoodwinked? Is all the data everywhere in the world being simultaneously falsified? This is a conspiracy theory, however much you don't like using the phrase because it makes it sound foolish. An assumption of how people and events are causally interconnected or form some pattern The conspirators are intentional in their actions. A group of dishonest, bad actors are working in conjunction towards a goal (lone wolf explanations do not meet the definition of a conspiracy theory) There is threat of harm to others from the conspirators. The conspirators act in secrecy, which explains why there is often sparse evidence and also make them hard to disprove. A small group have "secret" knowledge despite this all powerful conspiracy controlling and coordinating everything. Everyone else is foolish and naive" Hey welcome back. Been away? Wonder why? You seem incapable of understanding the concept of a discussion. You also seem to continually seek to try to undermine any attempt at a civil discussion. Virtually everyone else on this thread saw it for what it is...trying to understand the reasons why many have little or no trust in govt and big pharma. And to stimulate that discussion there are examples included that provide possible explanations. That has led to, IMO, one of the least confrontational threads in the Virus section for a long time. Then you arrive! Your whole hypothesis seems to focus around coordination, governments working together, a grand conspiracy. Some do believe that for sure (I don’t but was doing my best to facilitate rather than push my opinions - not always effectively). The problem with all you say is that you do actually agree each item raised is true. Each of those things has happened/is happening. Your whole objection seems to focus on trying to discredit the notion that these items are being done together in a coordinated way. Now even though I do not think that is the case, it is actually impossible for you to disprove. However, a coordinated conspiracy is not what this thread is actually about. It is a discussion on lack of trust... Ergo these items do not need to be part of a coordinated pattern of activity. They can happen in complete isolation from each other but still create an environment that erodes trust. Feel free to engage but like others, please do so with more respect. | |||
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"I fully believe every contract handed out by the government has someone's slimy fingers in the pie. That's greed 101 and not just our government, every single one. However that doesn't mean that there's some grand conspiracy afoot, it just means most politicians are scumbags who'd sell their soul to get what they want. Power corrupts, its a tale as old as tales can be." | |||
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" Are all medical staff everywhere in the world lying or have they been hoodwinked? Is all the data everywhere in the world being simultaneously falsified? The answer to both those questions is no. But you already know that. Are all bank staff crooked because there are people at head office turning a blind eye to money laundering? No. Your ridiculous 'worst-case scenarios', to make the poster sound more extreme than they actually are, are getting tiresome." Indeed. Modus Operandi: 1) Discredit post/person by implying a more extreme version is actually the (hidden) intent 2) Ignore what is actually said and try to steer conversation down a rabbit hole | |||
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"Originally posted this in a thread but thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion (or may just be full of tumble ). Either way... The majority (certainly not all) of the ongoing discussion around the safety of the covid vaccines is down to one thing. A lack of trust. Trust in government. Trust in big pharma. And the problem is that govts (and in particular ours in the UK this past two years) and big pharma have serious form for lying, deception, malpractice and corruption. And yet suddenly because of the pandemic we are told they need to be trusted. When you see govt officials flouting the rules, driving to “test their eyes”, not wearing masks, having parties, playing with their mistress etc some people will wonder what they know that we don’t? It feeds the conspiracies. When you see govt corruption that results in the largest transfer of public assets into private hands in history, some people question their motives. When you have the scientists working for pharma tell you their research and testing is totally sound and that they know xyz about efficacy, dosage/frequency etc only to then have this revised at what would appear to be a convenient moment, some people will have doubts. When you see govt “listening to the science” when it suits but ignoring it when it doesn’t (such as 6 week delay to closing border to India), some people will be concerned our leaders do not really have our best interests at heart. When you see govt pushing legislation through that severely damages/limits our rights, or seeking to change the electoral system in such a way that it only benefits those already in power and doing so during a global public health emergency (ie people are distracted), the some people will be worried about where this is all leading. Trust is very hard to earn (although going by some on here that statement seems completely wrong) and very easy to lose. I have said it many times on here (getting boring I am sure) but always follow the money. While I actually do have confidence the vaccines work (but am bitterly disappointed they don’t work as well as we were told by those we are supposed to trust) I am very sceptical about some of the motives driving policy. There is so much money involved that a public health emergency creates the perfect situation for the corrupt to exploit for their own gain (and we know for fact they did around PPE, LFTs, and other med supplies). The pandemic is a disaster capitalist’s and corrupt opportunist’s wet dream. That makes motives questionable and trust continually gets eroded. Once again this? Unconnected matters. Some true. Some not. Joining them up as if they are coordinated. The fact that the government is incompetent and corrupt does not mean that they are deliberately recommending unnecessary boosters. The fact that the government gave dodgy PPE contracts does not mean they are giving dodgy vaccine contracts. One dodgy pharmaceutical company does not mean every single one is. Many small pharmaceutical companies and academic institutions and state bodies developed multiple vaccines independently. What's the link? Why is every single government and country on the planet saying and doing the same thing now when they never have in the history of the world? Are all medical staff everywhere in the world lying or have they been hoodwinked? Is all the data everywhere in the world being simultaneously falsified? This is a conspiracy theory, however much you don't like using the phrase because it makes it sound foolish. An assumption of how people and events are causally interconnected or form some pattern The conspirators are intentional in their actions. A group of dishonest, bad actors are working in conjunction towards a goal (lone wolf explanations do not meet the definition of a conspiracy theory) There is threat of harm to others from the conspirators. The conspirators act in secrecy, which explains why there is often sparse evidence and also make them hard to disprove. A small group have "secret" knowledge despite this all powerful conspiracy controlling and coordinating everything. Everyone else is foolish and naive Hey welcome back. Been away? Wonder why? You seem incapable of understanding the concept of a discussion. You also seem to continually seek to try to undermine any attempt at a civil discussion. Virtually everyone else on this thread saw it for what it is...trying to understand the reasons why many have little or no trust in govt and big pharma. And to stimulate that discussion there are examples included that provide possible explanations. That has led to, IMO, one of the least confrontational threads in the Virus section for a long time. Then you arrive! Your whole hypothesis seems to focus around coordination, governments working together, a grand conspiracy. Some do believe that for sure (I don’t but was doing my best to facilitate rather than push my opinions - not always effectively). The problem with all you say is that you do actually agree each item raised is true. Each of those things has happened/is happening. Your whole objection seems to focus on trying to discredit the notion that these items are being done together in a coordinated way. Now even though I do not think that is the case, it is actually impossible for you to disprove. However, a coordinated conspiracy is not what this thread is actually about. It is a discussion on lack of trust... Ergo these items do not need to be part of a coordinated pattern of activity. They can happen in complete isolation from each other but still create an environment that erodes trust. Feel free to engage but like others, please do so with more respect." You are regularly posting a range of unrelated points together. You were linking them directly. Now you imply a link. I have no "hypothesis". You do, but claim simultaneously that you do not and are just "debating". However, when you are asked to explain an element of your "not a conspiracy" it is "confrontational". Scroll up to my original reply: 'The conspirators act in secrecy, which explains why there is often sparse evidence and also make them hard to disprove' Lack of trust can be discussed in any format. It is completely unnecessary to do so in a manner that is linked to a global pandemic, raises doubts in transparent medical advice and encourages vaccine hesitancy. I do not trust how you claim to have no agenda and not be a vaccine sceptic but continually raise doubts about the vaccine and the advice around how to try to come through this. | |||
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" Are all medical staff everywhere in the world lying or have they been hoodwinked? Is all the data everywhere in the world being simultaneously falsified? The answer to both those questions is no. But you already know that. Are all bank staff crooked because there are people at head office turning a blind eye to money laundering? No. Your ridiculous 'worst-case scenarios', to make the poster sound more extreme than they actually are, are getting tiresome. Indeed. Modus Operandi: 1) Discredit post/person by implying a more extreme version is actually the (hidden) intent 2) Ignore what is actually said and try to steer conversation down a rabbit hole" Again, no. Your "not a conspiracy" is a worst case of globally coordinated corruption which is the only way to explain that vaccines are unnecessary and just a way for pharmaceutical companies to make money. That is the only way that your thesis makes any sense. | |||
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"Originally posted this in a thread but thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion (or may just be full of tumble ). Either way... The majority (certainly not all) of the ongoing discussion around the safety of the covid vaccines is down to one thing. A lack of trust. Trust in government. Trust in big pharma. And the problem is that govts (and in particular ours in the UK this past two years) and big pharma have serious form for lying, deception, malpractice and corruption. And yet suddenly because of the pandemic we are told they need to be trusted. When you see govt officials flouting the rules, driving to “test their eyes”, not wearing masks, having parties, playing with their mistress etc some people will wonder what they know that we don’t? It feeds the conspiracies. When you see govt corruption that results in the largest transfer of public assets into private hands in history, some people question their motives. When you have the scientists working for pharma tell you their research and testing is totally sound and that they know xyz about efficacy, dosage/frequency etc only to then have this revised at what would appear to be a convenient moment, some people will have doubts. When you see govt “listening to the science” when it suits but ignoring it when it doesn’t (such as 6 week delay to closing border to India), some people will be concerned our leaders do not really have our best interests at heart. When you see govt pushing legislation through that severely damages/limits our rights, or seeking to change the electoral system in such a way that it only benefits those already in power and doing so during a global public health emergency (ie people are distracted), the some people will be worried about where this is all leading. Trust is very hard to earn (although going by some on here that statement seems completely wrong) and very easy to lose. I have said it many times on here (getting boring I am sure) but always follow the money. While I actually do have confidence the vaccines work (but am bitterly disappointed they don’t work as well as we were told by those we are supposed to trust) I am very sceptical about some of the motives driving policy. There is so much money involved that a public health emergency creates the perfect situation for the corrupt to exploit for their own gain (and we know for fact they did around PPE, LFTs, and other med supplies). The pandemic is a disaster capitalist’s and corrupt opportunist’s wet dream. That makes motives questionable and trust continually gets eroded. Once again this? Unconnected matters. Some true. Some not. Joining them up as if they are coordinated. The fact that the government is incompetent and corrupt does not mean that they are deliberately recommending unnecessary boosters. The fact that the government gave dodgy PPE contracts does not mean they are giving dodgy vaccine contracts. One dodgy pharmaceutical company does not mean every single one is. Many small pharmaceutical companies and academic institutions and state bodies developed multiple vaccines independently. What's the link? Why is every single government and country on the planet saying and doing the same thing now when they never have in the history of the world? Are all medical staff everywhere in the world lying or have they been hoodwinked? Is all the data everywhere in the world being simultaneously falsified? This is a conspiracy theory, however much you don't like using the phrase because it makes it sound foolish. An assumption of how people and events are causally interconnected or form some pattern The conspirators are intentional in their actions. A group of dishonest, bad actors are working in conjunction towards a goal (lone wolf explanations do not meet the definition of a conspiracy theory) There is threat of harm to others from the conspirators. The conspirators act in secrecy, which explains why there is often sparse evidence and also make them hard to disprove. A small group have "secret" knowledge despite this all powerful conspiracy controlling and coordinating everything. Everyone else is foolish and naive" Not sure what post you are responding to as it bears little link with the op. Which was about whether people trust or not govt and those labelled as pharma. | |||
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(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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"Originally posted this in a thread but thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion (or may just be full of tumble ). Either way... The majority (certainly not all) of the ongoing discussion around the safety of the covid vaccines is down to one thing. A lack of trust. Trust in government. Trust in big pharma. And the problem is that govts (and in particular ours in the UK this past two years) and big pharma have serious form for lying, deception, malpractice and corruption. And yet suddenly because of the pandemic we are told they need to be trusted. When you see govt officials flouting the rules, driving to “test their eyes”, not wearing masks, having parties, playing with their mistress etc some people will wonder what they know that we don’t? It feeds the conspiracies. When you see govt corruption that results in the largest transfer of public assets into private hands in history, some people question their motives. When you have the scientists working for pharma tell you their research and testing is totally sound and that they know xyz about efficacy, dosage/frequency etc only to then have this revised at what would appear to be a convenient moment, some people will have doubts. When you see govt “listening to the science” when it suits but ignoring it when it doesn’t (such as 6 week delay to closing border to India), some people will be concerned our leaders do not really have our best interests at heart. When you see govt pushing legislation through that severely damages/limits our rights, or seeking to change the electoral system in such a way that it only benefits those already in power and doing so during a global public health emergency (ie people are distracted), the some people will be worried about where this is all leading. Trust is very hard to earn (although going by some on here that statement seems completely wrong) and very easy to lose. I have said it many times on here (getting boring I am sure) but always follow the money. While I actually do have confidence the vaccines work (but am bitterly disappointed they don’t work as well as we were told by those we are supposed to trust) I am very sceptical about some of the motives driving policy. There is so much money involved that a public health emergency creates the perfect situation for the corrupt to exploit for their own gain (and we know for fact they did around PPE, LFTs, and other med supplies). The pandemic is a disaster capitalist’s and corrupt opportunist’s wet dream. That makes motives questionable and trust continually gets eroded. Once again this? Unconnected matters. Some true. Some not. Joining them up as if they are coordinated. The fact that the government is incompetent and corrupt does not mean that they are deliberately recommending unnecessary boosters. The fact that the government gave dodgy PPE contracts does not mean they are giving dodgy vaccine contracts. One dodgy pharmaceutical company does not mean every single one is. Many small pharmaceutical companies and academic institutions and state bodies developed multiple vaccines independently. What's the link? Why is every single government and country on the planet saying and doing the same thing now when they never have in the history of the world? Are all medical staff everywhere in the world lying or have they been hoodwinked? Is all the data everywhere in the world being simultaneously falsified? This is a conspiracy theory, however much you don't like using the phrase because it makes it sound foolish. An assumption of how people and events are causally interconnected or form some pattern The conspirators are intentional in their actions. A group of dishonest, bad actors are working in conjunction towards a goal (lone wolf explanations do not meet the definition of a conspiracy theory) There is threat of harm to others from the conspirators. The conspirators act in secrecy, which explains why there is often sparse evidence and also make them hard to disprove. A small group have "secret" knowledge despite this all powerful conspiracy controlling and coordinating everything. Everyone else is foolish and naive Hey welcome back. Been away? Wonder why? You seem incapable of understanding the concept of a discussion. You also seem to continually seek to try to undermine any attempt at a civil discussion. Virtually everyone else on this thread saw it for what it is...trying to understand the reasons why many have little or no trust in govt and big pharma. And to stimulate that discussion there are examples included that provide possible explanations. That has led to, IMO, one of the least confrontational threads in the Virus section for a long time. Then you arrive! Your whole hypothesis seems to focus around coordination, governments working together, a grand conspiracy. Some do believe that for sure (I don’t but was doing my best to facilitate rather than push my opinions - not always effectively). The problem with all you say is that you do actually agree each item raised is true. Each of those things has happened/is happening. Your whole objection seems to focus on trying to discredit the notion that these items are being done together in a coordinated way. Now even though I do not think that is the case, it is actually impossible for you to disprove. However, a coordinated conspiracy is not what this thread is actually about. It is a discussion on lack of trust... Ergo these items do not need to be part of a coordinated pattern of activity. They can happen in complete isolation from each other but still create an environment that erodes trust. Feel free to engage but like others, please do so with more respect." Op as someone who has agreed and disagreed with both of you perhaps the respect point goes both ways? You and Easy don't share the same views which is fine but your calling him out and doing the same yourself in trying to provoke.. Tbh I think your a bigger person to allow a personality clash to taint your input.. Just a thought.. | |||
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(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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"Originally posted this in a thread but thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion (or may just be full of tumble ). Either way... The majority (certainly not all) of the ongoing discussion around the safety of the covid vaccines is down to one thing. A lack of trust. Trust in government. Trust in big pharma. And the problem is that govts (and in particular ours in the UK this past two years) and big pharma have serious form for lying, deception, malpractice and corruption. And yet suddenly because of the pandemic we are told they need to be trusted. When you see govt officials flouting the rules, driving to “test their eyes”, not wearing masks, having parties, playing with their mistress etc some people will wonder what they know that we don’t? It feeds the conspiracies. When you see govt corruption that results in the largest transfer of public assets into private hands in history, some people question their motives. When you have the scientists working for pharma tell you their research and testing is totally sound and that they know xyz about efficacy, dosage/frequency etc only to then have this revised at what would appear to be a convenient moment, some people will have doubts. When you see govt “listening to the science” when it suits but ignoring it when it doesn’t (such as 6 week delay to closing border to India), some people will be concerned our leaders do not really have our best interests at heart. When you see govt pushing legislation through that severely damages/limits our rights, or seeking to change the electoral system in such a way that it only benefits those already in power and doing so during a global public health emergency (ie people are distracted), the some people will be worried about where this is all leading. Trust is very hard to earn (although going by some on here that statement seems completely wrong) and very easy to lose. I have said it many times on here (getting boring I am sure) but always follow the money. While I actually do have confidence the vaccines work (but am bitterly disappointed they don’t work as well as we were told by those we are supposed to trust) I am very sceptical about some of the motives driving policy. There is so much money involved that a public health emergency creates the perfect situation for the corrupt to exploit for their own gain (and we know for fact they did around PPE, LFTs, and other med supplies). The pandemic is a disaster capitalist’s and corrupt opportunist’s wet dream. That makes motives questionable and trust continually gets eroded. Once again this? Unconnected matters. Some true. Some not. Joining them up as if they are coordinated. The fact that the government is incompetent and corrupt does not mean that they are deliberately recommending unnecessary boosters. The fact that the government gave dodgy PPE contracts does not mean they are giving dodgy vaccine contracts. One dodgy pharmaceutical company does not mean every single one is. Many small pharmaceutical companies and academic institutions and state bodies developed multiple vaccines independently. What's the link? Why is every single government and country on the planet saying and doing the same thing now when they never have in the history of the world? Are all medical staff everywhere in the world lying or have they been hoodwinked? Is all the data everywhere in the world being simultaneously falsified? This is a conspiracy theory, however much you don't like using the phrase because it makes it sound foolish. An assumption of how people and events are causally interconnected or form some pattern The conspirators are intentional in their actions. A group of dishonest, bad actors are working in conjunction towards a goal (lone wolf explanations do not meet the definition of a conspiracy theory) There is threat of harm to others from the conspirators. The conspirators act in secrecy, which explains why there is often sparse evidence and also make them hard to disprove. A small group have "secret" knowledge despite this all powerful conspiracy controlling and coordinating everything. Everyone else is foolish and naive Not sure what post you are responding to as it bears little link with the op. Which was about whether people trust or not govt and those labelled as pharma. " The point is that they are being linked during a global pandemic when vaccination hesitancy is a significant barrier to getting through this with minimal harm. | |||
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"@Easyuk - you don’t trust! Interesting. So you assume underlying reasons or agenda are behind everything rather than a more middle ground desire to simply better understand people with more extreme views than your own. What a miserable way to view the world and people! It is quite clear from the vast majority of responses on this thread that people took it as intended and, you know, discussed it. So to satisfy you everything would need to be caveated ad-infinitum! You see connections (joining the dots) and implied conspiracies everywhere and have self appointed yourself to discredit them, even when that is not the actual topic for discussion! It is YOU who is trying to make connections and focused on global conspiracies all the time. So much so that you seem incapable of seeing anything else or that motivations are not always driven by hidden agendas rather than a desire to understand others! I provided some examples of things done by Govt and Big Pharma as possible explanations for generating a lack of trust. It wasn’t an exhaustive list or comprehensive. I made no connections or implied any coordination. So tell me, which of the things I list are NOT things that contribute to a loss of trust?" Nope. I am just using your argument. You are the one linking a global pandemic, governments, pharmaceutical companies, vaccines and a lack of trust. Not just on this thread. Again and again and again. Why not discuss them separately? Why conflate them? | |||
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"@coupleinlancashire that is a fair point. In this case I am not really sure what we are disagreeing about. I raise the issue of a lack of trust for many people and put forward some examples. I am then accused of suggesting they are part of a coordinated global conspiracy which clearly I didn’t. I think if it had not been directed at me but more a general point being made about the topic my reaction would have been different but I bow to your wisdom xx" Fair point although not sure about the wisdom lol.. On the topic I trust no political party till shown otherwise, been round too long and dealt with both red and blue from a trades union perspective .. Pharma is similar but like any part of global capitalism there are times when our dislike, distrust has to be balanced with our needs in society.. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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"@Easyuk - you don’t trust! Interesting. So you assume underlying reasons or agenda are behind everything rather than a more middle ground desire to simply better understand people with more extreme views than your own. What a miserable way to view the world and people! It is quite clear from the vast majority of responses on this thread that people took it as intended and, you know, discussed it. So to satisfy you everything would need to be caveated ad-infinitum! You see connections (joining the dots) and implied conspiracies everywhere and have self appointed yourself to discredit them, even when that is not the actual topic for discussion! It is YOU who is trying to make connections and focused on global conspiracies all the time. So much so that you seem incapable of seeing anything else or that motivations are not always driven by hidden agendas rather than a desire to understand others! I provided some examples of things done by Govt and Big Pharma as possible explanations for generating a lack of trust. It wasn’t an exhaustive list or comprehensive. I made no connections or implied any coordination. So tell me, which of the things I list are NOT things that contribute to a loss of trust? Nope. I am just using your argument. You are the one linking a global pandemic, governments, pharmaceutical companies, vaccines and a lack of trust. Not just on this thread. Again and again and again. Why not discuss them separately? Why conflate them?" Listing a range of reasons for why some people do not trust govt or pharma is not the same as saying they are connected in a coordinated conspiracy. However, there is simply no point continuing as you have already decided what my motivations are and nothing will change that. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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"@Easyuk - you don’t trust! Interesting. So you assume underlying reasons or agenda are behind everything rather than a more middle ground desire to simply better understand people with more extreme views than your own. What a miserable way to view the world and people! It is quite clear from the vast majority of responses on this thread that people took it as intended and, you know, discussed it. So to satisfy you everything would need to be caveated ad-infinitum! You see connections (joining the dots) and implied conspiracies everywhere and have self appointed yourself to discredit them, even when that is not the actual topic for discussion! It is YOU who is trying to make connections and focused on global conspiracies all the time. So much so that you seem incapable of seeing anything else or that motivations are not always driven by hidden agendas rather than a desire to understand others! I provided some examples of things done by Govt and Big Pharma as possible explanations for generating a lack of trust. It wasn’t an exhaustive list or comprehensive. I made no connections or implied any coordination. So tell me, which of the things I list are NOT things that contribute to a loss of trust? Nope. I am just using your argument. You are the one linking a global pandemic, governments, pharmaceutical companies, vaccines and a lack of trust. Not just on this thread. Again and again and again. Why not discuss them separately? Why conflate them? Listing a range of reasons for why some people do not trust govt or pharma is not the same as saying they are connected in a coordinated conspiracy. However, there is simply no point continuing as you have already decided what my motivations are and nothing will change that." I haven't, actually, decided your motivation. However, you have linked the two matters several times in multiple threads, including the virus section where you linked the booster directly to corruption. Do discuss corruption. Do discuss mistrust, but do you really not see that at this time linking government and vaccines and trust in the same breath is not the most responsible approach? | |||
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" Are all medical staff everywhere in the world lying or have they been hoodwinked? Is all the data everywhere in the world being simultaneously falsified? The answer to both those questions is no. But you already know that. Are all bank staff crooked because there are people at head office turning a blind eye to money laundering? No. Your ridiculous 'worst-case scenarios', to make the poster sound more extreme than they actually are, are getting tiresome. It's not a "worst case scenario". It's what's required for this connection of dots to be joined. It's the only way to back your theory that vaccines are unnecessary and that Covid is not really a significant medical problem. Take your choice." Will vaccinating everyone on the planet defeat Covid? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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"Originally posted this in a thread but thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion (or may just be full of tumble ). Either way... The majority (certainly not all) of the ongoing discussion around the safety of the covid vaccines is down to one thing. A lack of trust. Trust in government. Trust in big pharma. And the problem is that govts (and in particular ours in the UK this past two years) and big pharma have serious form for lying, deception, malpractice and corruption. And yet suddenly because of the pandemic we are told they need to be trusted. When you see govt officials flouting the rules, driving to “test their eyes”, not wearing masks, having parties, playing with their mistress etc some people will wonder what they know that we don’t? It feeds the conspiracies. When you see govt corruption that results in the largest transfer of public assets into private hands in history, some people question their motives. When you have the scientists working for pharma tell you their research and testing is totally sound and that they know xyz about efficacy, dosage/frequency etc only to then have this revised at what would appear to be a convenient moment, some people will have doubts. When you see govt “listening to the science” when it suits but ignoring it when it doesn’t (such as 6 week delay to closing border to India), some people will be concerned our leaders do not really have our best interests at heart. When you see govt pushing legislation through that severely damages/limits our rights, or seeking to change the electoral system in such a way that it only benefits those already in power and doing so during a global public health emergency (ie people are distracted), the some people will be worried about where this is all leading. Trust is very hard to earn (although going by some on here that statement seems completely wrong) and very easy to lose. I have said it many times on here (getting boring I am sure) but always follow the money. While I actually do have confidence the vaccines work (but am bitterly disappointed they don’t work as well as we were told by those we are supposed to trust) I am very sceptical about some of the motives driving policy. There is so much money involved that a public health emergency creates the perfect situation for the corrupt to exploit for their own gain (and we know for fact they did around PPE, LFTs, and other med supplies). The pandemic is a disaster capitalist’s and corrupt opportunist’s wet dream. That makes motives questionable and trust continually gets eroded. Once again this? Unconnected matters. Some true. Some not. Joining them up as if they are coordinated. The fact that the government is incompetent and corrupt does not mean that they are deliberately recommending unnecessary boosters. The fact that the government gave dodgy PPE contracts does not mean they are giving dodgy vaccine contracts. One dodgy pharmaceutical company does not mean every single one is. Many small pharmaceutical companies and academic institutions and state bodies developed multiple vaccines independently. What's the link? Why is every single government and country on the planet saying and doing the same thing now when they never have in the history of the world? Are all medical staff everywhere in the world lying or have they been hoodwinked? Is all the data everywhere in the world being simultaneously falsified? This is a conspiracy theory, however much you don't like using the phrase because it makes it sound foolish. An assumption of how people and events are causally interconnected or form some pattern The conspirators are intentional in their actions. A group of dishonest, bad actors are working in conjunction towards a goal (lone wolf explanations do not meet the definition of a conspiracy theory) There is threat of harm to others from the conspirators. The conspirators act in secrecy, which explains why there is often sparse evidence and also make them hard to disprove. A small group have "secret" knowledge despite this all powerful conspiracy controlling and coordinating everything. Everyone else is foolish and naive Not sure what post you are responding to as it bears little link with the op. Which was about whether people trust or not govt and those labelled as pharma. The point is that they are being linked during a global pandemic when vaccination hesitancy is a significant barrier to getting through this with minimal harm." Do you think that lack of trust / credibility in govt and pharma industries might contribute to any such hesitancy? | |||
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" Do you think that lack of trust / credibility in govt and pharma industries might contribute to any such hesitancy? " Undoubtedly it has yes although by how much will not be known.. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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" Are all medical staff everywhere in the world lying or have they been hoodwinked? Is all the data everywhere in the world being simultaneously falsified? The answer to both those questions is no. But you already know that. Are all bank staff crooked because there are people at head office turning a blind eye to money laundering? No. Your ridiculous 'worst-case scenarios', to make the poster sound more extreme than they actually are, are getting tiresome. It's not a "worst case scenario". It's what's required for this connection of dots to be joined. It's the only way to back your theory that vaccines are unnecessary and that Covid is not really a significant medical problem. Take your choice. Will vaccinating everyone on the planet defeat Covid?" It may well do. It will significantly reduce the chance of mutation. Global vaccination has managed to eliminate the odd virus, hasn't it? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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"Originally posted this in a thread but thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion (or may just be full of tumble ). Either way... The majority (certainly not all) of the ongoing discussion around the safety of the covid vaccines is down to one thing. A lack of trust. Trust in government. Trust in big pharma. And the problem is that govts (and in particular ours in the UK this past two years) and big pharma have serious form for lying, deception, malpractice and corruption. And yet suddenly because of the pandemic we are told they need to be trusted. When you see govt officials flouting the rules, driving to “test their eyes”, not wearing masks, having parties, playing with their mistress etc some people will wonder what they know that we don’t? It feeds the conspiracies. When you see govt corruption that results in the largest transfer of public assets into private hands in history, some people question their motives. When you have the scientists working for pharma tell you their research and testing is totally sound and that they know xyz about efficacy, dosage/frequency etc only to then have this revised at what would appear to be a convenient moment, some people will have doubts. When you see govt “listening to the science” when it suits but ignoring it when it doesn’t (such as 6 week delay to closing border to India), some people will be concerned our leaders do not really have our best interests at heart. When you see govt pushing legislation through that severely damages/limits our rights, or seeking to change the electoral system in such a way that it only benefits those already in power and doing so during a global public health emergency (ie people are distracted), the some people will be worried about where this is all leading. Trust is very hard to earn (although going by some on here that statement seems completely wrong) and very easy to lose. I have said it many times on here (getting boring I am sure) but always follow the money. While I actually do have confidence the vaccines work (but am bitterly disappointed they don’t work as well as we were told by those we are supposed to trust) I am very sceptical about some of the motives driving policy. There is so much money involved that a public health emergency creates the perfect situation for the corrupt to exploit for their own gain (and we know for fact they did around PPE, LFTs, and other med supplies). The pandemic is a disaster capitalist’s and corrupt opportunist’s wet dream. That makes motives questionable and trust continually gets eroded. Once again this? Unconnected matters. Some true. Some not. Joining them up as if they are coordinated. The fact that the government is incompetent and corrupt does not mean that they are deliberately recommending unnecessary boosters. The fact that the government gave dodgy PPE contracts does not mean they are giving dodgy vaccine contracts. One dodgy pharmaceutical company does not mean every single one is. Many small pharmaceutical companies and academic institutions and state bodies developed multiple vaccines independently. What's the link? Why is every single government and country on the planet saying and doing the same thing now when they never have in the history of the world? Are all medical staff everywhere in the world lying or have they been hoodwinked? Is all the data everywhere in the world being simultaneously falsified? This is a conspiracy theory, however much you don't like using the phrase because it makes it sound foolish. An assumption of how people and events are causally interconnected or form some pattern The conspirators are intentional in their actions. A group of dishonest, bad actors are working in conjunction towards a goal (lone wolf explanations do not meet the definition of a conspiracy theory) There is threat of harm to others from the conspirators. The conspirators act in secrecy, which explains why there is often sparse evidence and also make them hard to disprove. A small group have "secret" knowledge despite this all powerful conspiracy controlling and coordinating everything. Everyone else is foolish and naive Not sure what post you are responding to as it bears little link with the op. Which was about whether people trust or not govt and those labelled as pharma. The point is that they are being linked during a global pandemic when vaccination hesitancy is a significant barrier to getting through this with minimal harm. Do you think that lack of trust / credibility in govt and pharma industries might contribute to any such hesitancy? " How much distrust is there of pharma from a medical perspective? As has been pointed out multiple times, from a safety and efficacy perspective it is highly regulated and highly successful in treating serious illness. Particularly vaccination. However, continually linking government, pharma, Covid and vaccines and implying a connection drives mistrust.l in a serious situation. A connection is clearly being implied. Do you really not see this? | |||
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" Are all medical staff everywhere in the world lying or have they been hoodwinked? Is all the data everywhere in the world being simultaneously falsified? The answer to both those questions is no. But you already know that. Are all bank staff crooked because there are people at head office turning a blind eye to money laundering? No. Your ridiculous 'worst-case scenarios', to make the poster sound more extreme than they actually are, are getting tiresome. It's not a "worst case scenario". It's what's required for this connection of dots to be joined. It's the only way to back your theory that vaccines are unnecessary and that Covid is not really a significant medical problem. Take your choice. Will vaccinating everyone on the planet defeat Covid? It may well do. It will significantly reduce the chance of mutation. Global vaccination has managed to eliminate the odd virus, hasn't it?" Possibly but just because a vaccine may have worked that way for one disease, would surely not be safe to assume it would have the same impact on a novel virus? Does not the duration, efficacy and a hundred other factors determine how effective a vaccine may be against a disease in the population ? This feels rather like painting the golden Gate Bridge... As soon as you finish you have to start all over again. | |||
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" Are all medical staff everywhere in the world lying or have they been hoodwinked? Is all the data everywhere in the world being simultaneously falsified? The answer to both those questions is no. But you already know that. Are all bank staff crooked because there are people at head office turning a blind eye to money laundering? No. Your ridiculous 'worst-case scenarios', to make the poster sound more extreme than they actually are, are getting tiresome. It's not a "worst case scenario". It's what's required for this connection of dots to be joined. It's the only way to back your theory that vaccines are unnecessary and that Covid is not really a significant medical problem. Take your choice. Will vaccinating everyone on the planet defeat Covid? It may well do. It will significantly reduce the chance of mutation. Global vaccination has managed to eliminate the odd virus, hasn't it?" You advocate vaccination for all, yet all you can come up with is "it may well do"? Your 'elevator pitch' isn't very convincing. Global vaccinations have managed to eliminate the odd virus. When they have worked. | |||
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" Are all medical staff everywhere in the world lying or have they been hoodwinked? Is all the data everywhere in the world being simultaneously falsified? The answer to both those questions is no. But you already know that. Are all bank staff crooked because there are people at head office turning a blind eye to money laundering? No. Your ridiculous 'worst-case scenarios', to make the poster sound more extreme than they actually are, are getting tiresome. It's not a "worst case scenario". It's what's required for this connection of dots to be joined. It's the only way to back your theory that vaccines are unnecessary and that Covid is not really a significant medical problem. Take your choice. Will vaccinating everyone on the planet defeat Covid? It may well do. It will significantly reduce the chance of mutation. Global vaccination has managed to eliminate the odd virus, hasn't it? You advocate vaccination for all, yet all you can come up with is "it may well do"? Your 'elevator pitch' isn't very convincing. Global vaccinations have managed to eliminate the odd virus. When they have worked." Except neither you nor I are virologists or immunologists or epidemiologists. I am not pretending that I know better than they do. I am not trying to reinterpret what they have found to suit a different narrative. You can "question" all you wish with your very limited knowledge on the subject, but ultimately you don't actually know very much at all, do you? | |||
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"Originally posted this in a thread but thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion (or may just be full of tumble ). Either way... The majority (certainly not all) of the ongoing discussion around the safety of the covid vaccines is down to one thing. A lack of trust. Trust in government. Trust in big pharma. And the problem is that govts (and in particular ours in the UK this past two years) and big pharma have serious form for lying, deception, malpractice and corruption. And yet suddenly because of the pandemic we are told they need to be trusted. When you see govt officials flouting the rules, driving to “test their eyes”, not wearing masks, having parties, playing with their mistress etc some people will wonder what they know that we don’t? It feeds the conspiracies. When you see govt corruption that results in the largest transfer of public assets into private hands in history, some people question their motives. When you have the scientists working for pharma tell you their research and testing is totally sound and that they know xyz about efficacy, dosage/frequency etc only to then have this revised at what would appear to be a convenient moment, some people will have doubts. When you see govt “listening to the science” when it suits but ignoring it when it doesn’t (such as 6 week delay to closing border to India), some people will be concerned our leaders do not really have our best interests at heart. When you see govt pushing legislation through that severely damages/limits our rights, or seeking to change the electoral system in such a way that it only benefits those already in power and doing so during a global public health emergency (ie people are distracted), the some people will be worried about where this is all leading. Trust is very hard to earn (although going by some on here that statement seems completely wrong) and very easy to lose. I have said it many times on here (getting boring I am sure) but always follow the money. While I actually do have confidence the vaccines work (but am bitterly disappointed they don’t work as well as we were told by those we are supposed to trust) I am very sceptical about some of the motives driving policy. There is so much money involved that a public health emergency creates the perfect situation for the corrupt to exploit for their own gain (and we know for fact they did around PPE, LFTs, and other med supplies). The pandemic is a disaster capitalist’s and corrupt opportunist’s wet dream. That makes motives questionable and trust continually gets eroded. Once again this? Unconnected matters. Some true. Some not. Joining them up as if they are coordinated. The fact that the government is incompetent and corrupt does not mean that they are deliberately recommending unnecessary boosters. The fact that the government gave dodgy PPE contracts does not mean they are giving dodgy vaccine contracts. One dodgy pharmaceutical company does not mean every single one is. Many small pharmaceutical companies and academic institutions and state bodies developed multiple vaccines independently. What's the link? Why is every single government and country on the planet saying and doing the same thing now when they never have in the history of the world? Are all medical staff everywhere in the world lying or have they been hoodwinked? Is all the data everywhere in the world being simultaneously falsified? This is a conspiracy theory, however much you don't like using the phrase because it makes it sound foolish. An assumption of how people and events are causally interconnected or form some pattern The conspirators are intentional in their actions. A group of dishonest, bad actors are working in conjunction towards a goal (lone wolf explanations do not meet the definition of a conspiracy theory) There is threat of harm to others from the conspirators. The conspirators act in secrecy, which explains why there is often sparse evidence and also make them hard to disprove. A small group have "secret" knowledge despite this all powerful conspiracy controlling and coordinating everything. Everyone else is foolish and naive Not sure what post you are responding to as it bears little link with the op. Which was about whether people trust or not govt and those labelled as pharma. The point is that they are being linked during a global pandemic when vaccination hesitancy is a significant barrier to getting through this with minimal harm. Do you think that lack of trust / credibility in govt and pharma industries might contribute to any such hesitancy? How much distrust is there of pharma from a medical perspective? As has been pointed out multiple times, from a safety and efficacy perspective it is highly regulated and highly successful in treating serious illness. Particularly vaccination. However, continually linking government, pharma, Covid and vaccines and implying a connection drives mistrust.l in a serious situation. A connection is clearly being implied. Do you really not see this?" It is impossible (on here) to facilitate discussion without seeming to or being accused of having an agenda. So let’s see... There are several links further up this thread that clearly show that despite “...from a safety and efficacy perspective it is highly regulated and highly successful in treating serious illness...” that is not always the case. There are also plenty more with $billions worth of lawsuits historically and currently. That doesn’t mean it is the case this time. It doesn’t mean the Covid vaccine are not safe. But it does provide reasons why some people lack trust in pharma! Should they simply be dismissed? If so why? What is different this time? Have pharma companies suddenly become more trustworthy? If so can you provide examples? Certainly the business practices of Pfizer remain highly dubious as evidenced by the FT article (link above). Is this NOT an indicator of how they operate? Why haven’t all pharma companies agreed to save the world from Covid at cost? Why the need for profit? Huge profit! That might allay some people’s fears! Does that question mean all pharma is evil. Of course not! Without R&D and new drugs many people would suffer. They can be a force for good too! That is why some people do trust them or want to trust them. Discussing things that happen concurrently does not make them connected. They may be (certainly some people think they are) or they may not be. But I do not see why they cannot be discussed? | |||
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" Are all medical staff everywhere in the world lying or have they been hoodwinked? Is all the data everywhere in the world being simultaneously falsified? The answer to both those questions is no. But you already know that. Are all bank staff crooked because there are people at head office turning a blind eye to money laundering? No. Your ridiculous 'worst-case scenarios', to make the poster sound more extreme than they actually are, are getting tiresome. It's not a "worst case scenario". It's what's required for this connection of dots to be joined. It's the only way to back your theory that vaccines are unnecessary and that Covid is not really a significant medical problem. Take your choice. Will vaccinating everyone on the planet defeat Covid? It may well do. It will significantly reduce the chance of mutation. Global vaccination has managed to eliminate the odd virus, hasn't it? Possibly but just because a vaccine may have worked that way for one disease, would surely not be safe to assume it would have the same impact on a novel virus? Does not the duration, efficacy and a hundred other factors determine how effective a vaccine may be against a disease in the population ? This feels rather like painting the golden Gate Bridge... As soon as you finish you have to start all over again. " Again, this is not me making this up. These are the various aspects of the medical and public health professions. I'm not seeking to reinterpret anything. If anyone feels that their knowledge of the subject and "gut feeling" is a better indicator of how to make a decision on this then there are lot of professionals wasting their time. | |||
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"Originally posted this in a thread but thought it might be an interesting topic for discussion (or may just be full of tumble ). Either way... The majority (certainly not all) of the ongoing discussion around the safety of the covid vaccines is down to one thing. A lack of trust. Trust in government. Trust in big pharma. And the problem is that govts (and in particular ours in the UK this past two years) and big pharma have serious form for lying, deception, malpractice and corruption. And yet suddenly because of the pandemic we are told they need to be trusted. When you see govt officials flouting the rules, driving to “test their eyes”, not wearing masks, having parties, playing with their mistress etc some people will wonder what they know that we don’t? It feeds the conspiracies. When you see govt corruption that results in the largest transfer of public assets into private hands in history, some people question their motives. When you have the scientists working for pharma tell you their research and testing is totally sound and that they know xyz about efficacy, dosage/frequency etc only to then have this revised at what would appear to be a convenient moment, some people will have doubts. When you see govt “listening to the science” when it suits but ignoring it when it doesn’t (such as 6 week delay to closing border to India), some people will be concerned our leaders do not really have our best interests at heart. When you see govt pushing legislation through that severely damages/limits our rights, or seeking to change the electoral system in such a way that it only benefits those already in power and doing so during a global public health emergency (ie people are distracted), the some people will be worried about where this is all leading. Trust is very hard to earn (although going by some on here that statement seems completely wrong) and very easy to lose. I have said it many times on here (getting boring I am sure) but always follow the money. While I actually do have confidence the vaccines work (but am bitterly disappointed they don’t work as well as we were told by those we are supposed to trust) I am very sceptical about some of the motives driving policy. There is so much money involved that a public health emergency creates the perfect situation for the corrupt to exploit for their own gain (and we know for fact they did around PPE, LFTs, and other med supplies). The pandemic is a disaster capitalist’s and corrupt opportunist’s wet dream. That makes motives questionable and trust continually gets eroded. Once again this? Unconnected matters. Some true. Some not. Joining them up as if they are coordinated. The fact that the government is incompetent and corrupt does not mean that they are deliberately recommending unnecessary boosters. The fact that the government gave dodgy PPE contracts does not mean they are giving dodgy vaccine contracts. One dodgy pharmaceutical company does not mean every single one is. Many small pharmaceutical companies and academic institutions and state bodies developed multiple vaccines independently. What's the link? Why is every single government and country on the planet saying and doing the same thing now when they never have in the history of the world? Are all medical staff everywhere in the world lying or have they been hoodwinked? Is all the data everywhere in the world being simultaneously falsified? This is a conspiracy theory, however much you don't like using the phrase because it makes it sound foolish. An assumption of how people and events are causally interconnected or form some pattern The conspirators are intentional in their actions. A group of dishonest, bad actors are working in conjunction towards a goal (lone wolf explanations do not meet the definition of a conspiracy theory) There is threat of harm to others from the conspirators. The conspirators act in secrecy, which explains why there is often sparse evidence and also make them hard to disprove. A small group have "secret" knowledge despite this all powerful conspiracy controlling and coordinating everything. Everyone else is foolish and naive Not sure what post you are responding to as it bears little link with the op. Which was about whether people trust or not govt and those labelled as pharma. The point is that they are being linked during a global pandemic when vaccination hesitancy is a significant barrier to getting through this with minimal harm. Do you think that lack of trust / credibility in govt and pharma industries might contribute to any such hesitancy? How much distrust is there of pharma from a medical perspective? As has been pointed out multiple times, from a safety and efficacy perspective it is highly regulated and highly successful in treating serious illness. Particularly vaccination. However, continually linking government, pharma, Covid and vaccines and implying a connection drives mistrust.l in a serious situation. A connection is clearly being implied. Do you really not see this? It is impossible (on here) to facilitate discussion without seeming to or being accused of having an agenda. So let’s see... There are several links further up this thread that clearly show that despite “...from a safety and efficacy perspective it is highly regulated and highly successful in treating serious illness...” that is not always the case. There are also plenty more with $billions worth of lawsuits historically and currently. That doesn’t mean it is the case this time. It doesn’t mean the Covid vaccine are not safe. But it does provide reasons why some people lack trust in pharma! Should they simply be dismissed? If so why? What is different this time? Have pharma companies suddenly become more trustworthy? If so can you provide examples? Certainly the business practices of Pfizer remain highly dubious as evidenced by the FT article (link above). Is this NOT an indicator of how they operate? Why haven’t all pharma companies agreed to save the world from Covid at cost? Why the need for profit? Huge profit! That might allay some people’s fears! Does that question mean all pharma is evil. Of course not! Without R&D and new drugs many people would suffer. They can be a force for good too! That is why some people do trust them or want to trust them. Discussing things that happen concurrently does not make them connected. They may be (certainly some people think they are) or they may not be. But I do not see why they cannot be discussed? " "Plenty" of evidence? You keep mentioning Pfizer. How many drugs, medicines and vaccines are there in use? What proportion have been associated with serious clinical malpractice? What proportion of the companies who are involved in this industry have been associated with serious clinical malpractice? How much money is spent on treatments that will never be used because they fail somewhere in the development process? To call this "plenty" is nonsensical because the amount that happens with no problem whatsoever is astronomical. However, continually highlighting a small number cases creates mistrust. Expose, prosecute it, legislate to prevent it and keep monitoring. Learn from the past but don't keep talking about it and linking it to unrelated matters. We live in a capitalist society. Those the companies make money. You want them to do this charitably? Astra Seneca is delivering at minimum cost. Pfizer is making a bigger profit. Sinovac is free. What do you want? I wrote the exact opposite of not discussing these matters. You really don't see why linking them given the current circumstances is not a good idea? | |||
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"A question of trust? Everyone has their own opinions, driven by education, sentiment, and influence from their surroundings. These opinions will differ greatly from one person to the next, it is clear from this forum that groups form on how beliefs of others match already formed opinions and that those groups vary in extremes. Asking a question that requires a person to qualify their trust with such variety of beliefs in one place, will promote responses based on opinions that are not shared as a group. In short the thread has no logical conclusion other than to prove varying levels of trust exist and information will be absorbed and disseminated at an individuals subconscious bias. " I agree. I did not expect a conclusion but rather a (hopefully polite) surfacing of ideas and thoughts. Some people at either extreme will have entrenched views. Others may have mixed feelings. For me what is apparent (and indeed refreshing on here) is that we do not only have tribalist extreme views but actually quite a few people who take a more measured or middle ground on this specific topic. Generally that doesn’t come across in other threads where we often see the pros and antis going at each other. | |||
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"@Easyuk well looks like I did a bit of work for you after all. Top ten pharmaceutical lawsuit payouts... GlaxoSmithKline = $3 billion = 2012 Pfizer = $2.3 billion= 2009 Johnson & Johnson = $2.2 billion = 2013 Abbott = $1.5 billion = 2012 Eli Lilly = $1.42 billion = 2009 Merck = $950 million = 2011 Amgen = $762 million = 2012 AstraZeneca = $520 million = 2010 Actelion = $360 million = 2018 Purdue Pharma = $270 million = 2019 This is just in the USA. For the most part these are for reasons such as deceptive marketing, including off-label promotion and kickbacks, failure to report safety data and also in some cases kickbacks to doctors for authoring articles about the drug being used in ways that weren’t approved etc. Not saying this is evidence all drugs are bad. Not saying all pharma have bad/illegal practices or even that those listed have not improved their ways (have they?) Not saying everything is corrupt. I am saying that there are good reasons why some people do not trust them." ...and all investigated and prosecuted? What is the purpose of your exploration of trust if the vaccines and nearly all of the drugs ever produced are amazingly safe considering the number of people taking them and how unique we all are? What do you actually want? More legislation? Shut down pharmaceutical companies? Have them all state owned? Regulate their profits? Should we stop flying Boeing aircraft after the 737 Max problems? | |||
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"Last point (hopefully). @Easyuk you said... “We live in a capitalist society. Those the companies make money. You want them to do this charitably?” Well actually yeah! If there was ever a chance for Big Pharma to regain trust with the biggest PR opportunity in history, Covid was it! Why not do it at cost or at very least very minimal profit? Saying “ah well capitalism” just underscores the point that with so much money to be made, corrupt opportunists will cash in! Pfizer opted to NOT take Govt money to support R&D. Why? The FT article is clear on that. They wanted to retain the ability to dictate both the cost of the product and the supply. They have basically held poorer nations to ransom by insisting they change laws to prevent Pfizer ever being sued. So it is actions like this that raise questions and lead to people not trusting them. I think if the vaccine makers had all taken a more altruistic approach, many of those who were unsure about trust would have changed views or become more positive." Again, it is basically Pfizer you have a significant issue with, but it is extrapolated to the entire industry and beyond. I have not said that being dishonest is OK in a capitalist society. However, that is how we live with its pros and cons. Should all pharmaceutical companies not be altruistic all of the time then? Why only now? Should all medical staff do the same? What does any of this have to do with vaccines and a hypothetical link to governments during a global pandemic? There are many ways to discuss trust but you choose this one, under these circumstances. Bravo. | |||
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No profit from healthy people | |||
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" Should we stop flying Boeing aircraft after the 737 Max problems?" No. But you knew that already. And as usual you have gone the worst case scenario route by suggesting stop flying all Boeing aircraft. Why would you ground all Boeing aircraft when it was only the 737 Max that had the problem? At least families of the passengers who died in the 737 Max crashes had some redress with the manufacturer. Although Boeing did despatch a team to Thailand to offer families a cut and shut compensation deal so they could not pursue a class action case. | |||
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" Although Boeing did despatch a team to Thailand to offer families a cut and shut compensation deal so they could not pursue a class action case." *Indonesia, not Thailand. | |||
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" Should we stop flying Boeing aircraft after the 737 Max problems? No. But you knew that already. And as usual you have gone the worst case scenario route by suggesting stop flying all Boeing aircraft. Why would you ground all Boeing aircraft when it was only the 737 Max that had the problem? At least families of the passengers who died in the 737 Max crashes had some redress with the manufacturer. Although Boeing did despatch a team to Thailand to offer families a cut and shut compensation deal so they could not pursue a class action case." No. Why would you not trust a vaccine after prosecutions to other companies for other products and other reasons? Vaccines have redress to the vaccine compensation scheme. If you don't like them, don't take them but don't raise doubts about data that you don't understand because of a conspiracy theory of your own. | |||
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" Should we stop flying Boeing aircraft after the 737 Max problems? No. But you knew that already. And as usual you have gone the worst case scenario route by suggesting stop flying all Boeing aircraft. Why would you ground all Boeing aircraft when it was only the 737 Max that had the problem? At least families of the passengers who died in the 737 Max crashes had some redress with the manufacturer. Although Boeing did despatch a team to Thailand to offer families a cut and shut compensation deal so they could not pursue a class action case. No. Why would you not trust a vaccine after prosecutions to other companies for other products and other reasons? Vaccines have redress to the vaccine compensation scheme. If you don't like them, don't take them but don't raise doubts about data that you don't understand because of a conspiracy theory of your own." You conveniently forget that the COVID vaccine manufacturers have ensured they have no public liability for adverse reactions caused by the drug. I'll raise doubts where I see fit. Just like you do. | |||
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" Should we stop flying Boeing aircraft after the 737 Max problems? No. But you knew that already. And as usual you have gone the worst case scenario route by suggesting stop flying all Boeing aircraft. Why would you ground all Boeing aircraft when it was only the 737 Max that had the problem? At least families of the passengers who died in the 737 Max crashes had some redress with the manufacturer. Although Boeing did despatch a team to Thailand to offer families a cut and shut compensation deal so they could not pursue a class action case. No. Why would you not trust a vaccine after prosecutions to other companies for other products and other reasons? Vaccines have redress to the vaccine compensation scheme. If you don't like them, don't take them but don't raise doubts about data that you don't understand because of a conspiracy theory of your own. You conveniently forget that the COVID vaccine manufacturers have ensured they have no public liability for adverse reactions caused by the drug. I'll raise doubts where I see fit. Just like you do." If they had no protection would that change your mind on the vaccine? | |||
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"How hard is it to make a one size fits all t-shirt? Now how hard is it to make a vaccine for everyone? Accepting risk is a day to day occurrence, some risks are not worth taking and some are, as ludicrous as they might sound on paper. Strap yourself into a metal box containing highly flammable fuel and travel at great speeds amongst other flammable metal boxes. You can go one further and be launched into the air strapped into a metal box travelling at 500mph at a height of 30K ft over an ocean. Take a vaccine that lowers the probability of hospitalisation and severity. Risk v reward, risk v trust? " Aircraft and drugs go through an exhaustive test process. Due to the Covid vaccines having expedited regulatory approval, post-authorisation studies are required to confirm that the medicines safely provide the anticipated benefit. As such, everyone who has taken the vaccine is a 'crash-test dummy' because until those studies are completed, the manufacturers and regulators cannot confirm that the medicines safely provide the anticipated benefit. I've chosen to be part of the control group, separated from the rest of the studies, where the independent variable(s) being tested cannot influence the results. This isolates the independent variable's effects on the study and can help rule out alternative explanations of the study's results. I would like to thank everyone who has taken the vaccine(s) and fellow members of the control group for doing their bit. | |||
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"How hard is it to make a one size fits all t-shirt? Now how hard is it to make a vaccine for everyone? Accepting risk is a day to day occurrence, some risks are not worth taking and some are, as ludicrous as they might sound on paper. Strap yourself into a metal box containing highly flammable fuel and travel at great speeds amongst other flammable metal boxes. You can go one further and be launched into the air strapped into a metal box travelling at 500mph at a height of 30K ft over an ocean. Take a vaccine that lowers the probability of hospitalisation and severity. Risk v reward, risk v trust? Aircraft and drugs go through an exhaustive test process. Due to the Covid vaccines having expedited regulatory approval, post-authorisation studies are required to confirm that the medicines safely provide the anticipated benefit. As such, everyone who has taken the vaccine is a 'crash-test dummy' because until those studies are completed, the manufacturers and regulators cannot confirm that the medicines safely provide the anticipated benefit. I've chosen to be part of the control group, separated from the rest of the studies, where the independent variable(s) being tested cannot influence the results. This isolates the independent variable's effects on the study and can help rule out alternative explanations of the study's results. I would like to thank everyone who has taken the vaccine(s) and fellow members of the control group for doing their bit." I think you are saying that the reward of the vaccine is not worth the risk to you. Would you say that the risk could be less significant to others and the reward would be beneficial to them? | |||
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"How hard is it to make a one size fits all t-shirt? Now how hard is it to make a vaccine for everyone? Accepting risk is a day to day occurrence, some risks are not worth taking and some are, as ludicrous as they might sound on paper. Strap yourself into a metal box containing highly flammable fuel and travel at great speeds amongst other flammable metal boxes. You can go one further and be launched into the air strapped into a metal box travelling at 500mph at a height of 30K ft over an ocean. Take a vaccine that lowers the probability of hospitalisation and severity. Risk v reward, risk v trust? Aircraft and drugs go through an exhaustive test process. Due to the Covid vaccines having expedited regulatory approval, post-authorisation studies are required to confirm that the medicines safely provide the anticipated benefit. As such, everyone who has taken the vaccine is a 'crash-test dummy' because until those studies are completed, the manufacturers and regulators cannot confirm that the medicines safely provide the anticipated benefit. I've chosen to be part of the control group, separated from the rest of the studies, where the independent variable(s) being tested cannot influence the results. This isolates the independent variable's effects on the study and can help rule out alternative explanations of the study's results. I would like to thank everyone who has taken the vaccine(s) and fellow members of the control group for doing their bit." That's nonsense | |||
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"@Easyuk well looks like I did a bit of work for you after all. Top ten pharmaceutical lawsuit payouts... GlaxoSmithKline = $3 billion = 2012 Pfizer = $2.3 billion= 2009 Johnson & Johnson = $2.2 billion = 2013 Abbott = $1.5 billion = 2012 Eli Lilly = $1.42 billion = 2009 Merck = $950 million = 2011 Amgen = $762 million = 2012 AstraZeneca = $520 million = 2010 Actelion = $360 million = 2018 Purdue Pharma = $270 million = 2019 This is just in the USA. For the most part these are for reasons such as deceptive marketing, including off-label promotion and kickbacks, failure to report safety data and also in some cases kickbacks to doctors for authoring articles about the drug being used in ways that weren’t approved etc. Not saying this is evidence all drugs are bad. Not saying all pharma have bad/illegal practices or even that those listed have not improved their ways (have they?) Not saying everything is corrupt. I am saying that there are good reasons why some people do not trust them. ...and all investigated and prosecuted? What is the purpose of your exploration of trust if the vaccines and nearly all of the drugs ever produced are amazingly safe considering the number of people taking them and how unique we all are? What do you actually want? More legislation? Shut down pharmaceutical companies? Have them all state owned? Regulate their profits? Should we stop flying Boeing aircraft after the 737 Max problems?" Again you make the mistake of assuming an agenda. Look back at the purpose of this thread. It is about understanding trust or lack of trust and why. To address a thing you first need to understand a thing. Simply saying “that isn’t right” achieves nothing except further entrenching beliefs. | |||
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"How hard is it to make a one size fits all t-shirt? Now how hard is it to make a vaccine for everyone? Accepting risk is a day to day occurrence, some risks are not worth taking and some are, as ludicrous as they might sound on paper. Strap yourself into a metal box containing highly flammable fuel and travel at great speeds amongst other flammable metal boxes. You can go one further and be launched into the air strapped into a metal box travelling at 500mph at a height of 30K ft over an ocean. Take a vaccine that lowers the probability of hospitalisation and severity. Risk v reward, risk v trust? Aircraft and drugs go through an exhaustive test process. Due to the Covid vaccines having expedited regulatory approval, post-authorisation studies are required to confirm that the medicines safely provide the anticipated benefit. As such, everyone who has taken the vaccine is a 'crash-test dummy' because until those studies are completed, the manufacturers and regulators cannot confirm that the medicines safely provide the anticipated benefit. I've chosen to be part of the control group, separated from the rest of the studies, where the independent variable(s) being tested cannot influence the results. This isolates the independent variable's effects on the study and can help rule out alternative explanations of the study's results. I would like to thank everyone who has taken the vaccine(s) and fellow members of the control group for doing their bit. I think you are saying that the reward of the vaccine is not worth the risk to you. Would you say that the risk could be less significant to others and the reward would be beneficial to them? " That is not my call. The risk/reward decision is down to the personal individual to make. Fortunately, in the UK at least, taking the vaccine is down to personal choice. How much longer it will remain so is yet to be seen. | |||
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"How hard is it to make a one size fits all t-shirt? Now how hard is it to make a vaccine for everyone? Accepting risk is a day to day occurrence, some risks are not worth taking and some are, as ludicrous as they might sound on paper. Strap yourself into a metal box containing highly flammable fuel and travel at great speeds amongst other flammable metal boxes. You can go one further and be launched into the air strapped into a metal box travelling at 500mph at a height of 30K ft over an ocean. Take a vaccine that lowers the probability of hospitalisation and severity. Risk v reward, risk v trust? Aircraft and drugs go through an exhaustive test process. Due to the Covid vaccines having expedited regulatory approval, post-authorisation studies are required to confirm that the medicines safely provide the anticipated benefit. As such, everyone who has taken the vaccine is a 'crash-test dummy' because until those studies are completed, the manufacturers and regulators cannot confirm that the medicines safely provide the anticipated benefit. I've chosen to be part of the control group, separated from the rest of the studies, where the independent variable(s) being tested cannot influence the results. This isolates the independent variable's effects on the study and can help rule out alternative explanations of the study's results. I would like to thank everyone who has taken the vaccine(s) and fellow members of the control group for doing their bit. That's nonsense " There's gratitude for you! You should be thanking members of the control group. We're prepared to take one for the team in the name of science. | |||
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"How hard is it to make a one size fits all t-shirt? Now how hard is it to make a vaccine for everyone? Accepting risk is a day to day occurrence, some risks are not worth taking and some are, as ludicrous as they might sound on paper. Strap yourself into a metal box containing highly flammable fuel and travel at great speeds amongst other flammable metal boxes. You can go one further and be launched into the air strapped into a metal box travelling at 500mph at a height of 30K ft over an ocean. Take a vaccine that lowers the probability of hospitalisation and severity. Risk v reward, risk v trust? Aircraft and drugs go through an exhaustive test process. Due to the Covid vaccines having expedited regulatory approval, post-authorisation studies are required to confirm that the medicines safely provide the anticipated benefit. As such, everyone who has taken the vaccine is a 'crash-test dummy' because until those studies are completed, the manufacturers and regulators cannot confirm that the medicines safely provide the anticipated benefit. I've chosen to be part of the control group, separated from the rest of the studies, where the independent variable(s) being tested cannot influence the results. This isolates the independent variable's effects on the study and can help rule out alternative explanations of the study's results. I would like to thank everyone who has taken the vaccine(s) and fellow members of the control group for doing their bit." It’s amusing how the people reciting this latest iteration of anti-vaxxer groupspeak don’t seem to understand what a control group is.  | |||
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"How hard is it to make a one size fits all t-shirt? Now how hard is it to make a vaccine for everyone? Accepting risk is a day to day occurrence, some risks are not worth taking and some are, as ludicrous as they might sound on paper. Strap yourself into a metal box containing highly flammable fuel and travel at great speeds amongst other flammable metal boxes. You can go one further and be launched into the air strapped into a metal box travelling at 500mph at a height of 30K ft over an ocean. Take a vaccine that lowers the probability of hospitalisation and severity. Risk v reward, risk v trust? Aircraft and drugs go through an exhaustive test process. Due to the Covid vaccines having expedited regulatory approval, post-authorisation studies are required to confirm that the medicines safely provide the anticipated benefit. As such, everyone who has taken the vaccine is a 'crash-test dummy' because until those studies are completed, the manufacturers and regulators cannot confirm that the medicines safely provide the anticipated benefit. I've chosen to be part of the control group, separated from the rest of the studies, where the independent variable(s) being tested cannot influence the results. This isolates the independent variable's effects on the study and can help rule out alternative explanations of the study's results. I would like to thank everyone who has taken the vaccine(s) and fellow members of the control group for doing their bit. I think you are saying that the reward of the vaccine is not worth the risk to you. Would you say that the risk could be less significant to others and the reward would be beneficial to them? That is not my call. The risk/reward decision is down to the personal individual to make. Fortunately, in the UK at least, taking the vaccine is down to personal choice. How much longer it will remain so is yet to be seen." In that case you are happy for people to make a decision based upon their risk or exposure? This would indicate the vaccine is therefore making a difference to people who need it and want it. That makes sense, as an individual you don't like the risk but as you are part of society you are happy for others to benefit from reducing their risk to a more server case of covid. | |||
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