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"Does the government then have an obligation to offer funding for those who are unable to work because they cannot open legally? I know they did that last time, I'm just not sure if it's an obligation they have to fulfil or not." Yes, of course they do. The only alternative will be civil unrest and anarchy. | |||
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"The only alternative will be civil unrest and anarchy." People talk the big talk but nothing comes of it Anarchy in the UK was just late 70's punk | |||
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"Does the government then have an obligation to offer funding for those who are unable to work because they cannot open legally? I know they did that last time, I'm just not sure if it's an obligation they have to fulfil or not." You would likely be entitled to statutory benefits | |||
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"Does the government then have an obligation to offer funding for those who are unable to work because they cannot open legally? I know they did that last time, I'm just not sure if it's an obligation they have to fulfil or not." Absolutely no requirement on any government to provide any support or funding. | |||
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"The only alternative will be civil unrest and anarchy. People talk the big talk but nothing comes of it Anarchy in the UK was just late 70's punk " It wouldn't get far, they'd resort to what happened in Belgium recently - fire 'live' rounds. | |||
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"The cuboard is bare" this is the problem, it was bad beforenow its not a joke | |||
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"There's no legal obligation to fund anything. Best we can do is to avoid spreading the virus thereby negating the need to lock down." You mean the 'common sense' Boris said he should entrust to the British people. Well, that worked out well!! | |||
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"It's ironic that China , the country that started this mess is the place least affected by it .and by saying starting it, I am not blaming them for its existence (although it may have been a slip up in their lab) . I blame them for the cover up . By not letting the world know as soon as they found out about it. Apparently around November 2019." All the testing kits are also made in China and we must have bought millions. | |||
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"Whatever you think of Boris I will give him credit that he’s trying to balance public health vs the economy. Furlough only ended in October, so the government had basically paid people to stay at home and paid your tax and NI in the process for 20 months, that’s why we currently have a debt that’s running of 108% of our GDP. SAGE advisers keep pushing lockdowns because they still get paid their full wage, it doesn’t affect them. Morally Furlough should be reintroduced if we have another lockdown but we are having a tax rise to fund the NHS, how will that work if you are regurgitating the funds you have if you are paying it back out. Interest rates are going up, mortgages are going up, will the banks and building societies offer payment holidays again ? Finally, if we get another variant a couple of times a year (like the flu has variants) for the next 5 years are we going to keep opening and shutting the economy because if we do we are heading for a major recession with job losses and him repossessions because whatever you all might think the ‘pot is empty’ and we got around it last time by printing more money, but that is coming back to bite us with interest rate rises ! I’m no Boris fan but a lot to consider with the likes of Whitty and Vallance covering their backsides before the forthcoming public inquiry ! " Take your point but SAGE and the Public Health advisors are tasked with providing science advice, it's not in their remit to look at the economic effects so you're being rather unfair on them, they are doing their job. | |||
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"Boris already said there will be No lockdown " Of course you are aware that he has said this before and lockdown happened all the same. You can't trust a word Johnson says..... | |||
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"It's ironic that China , the country that started this mess is the place least affected by it .and by saying starting it, I am not blaming them for its existence (although it may have been a slip up in their lab) . I blame them for the cover up . By not letting the world know as soon as they found out about it. Apparently around November 2019." If we'd known a couple of months earlier, we wouldn't have likely done anything different. Even when Italy had their crisis, we didn't bother | |||
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"Whatever you think of Boris I will give him credit that he’s trying to balance public health vs the economy. Furlough only ended in October, so the government had basically paid people to stay at home and paid your tax and NI in the process for 20 months, that’s why we currently have a debt that’s running of 108% of our GDP. SAGE advisers keep pushing lockdowns because they still get paid their full wage, it doesn’t affect them. Morally Furlough should be reintroduced if we have another lockdown but we are having a tax rise to fund the NHS, how will that work if you are regurgitating the funds you have if you are paying it back out. Interest rates are going up, mortgages are going up, will the banks and building societies offer payment holidays again ? Finally, if we get another variant a couple of times a year (like the flu has variants) for the next 5 years are we going to keep opening and shutting the economy because if we do we are heading for a major recession with job losses and him repossessions because whatever you all might think the ‘pot is empty’ and we got around it last time by printing more money, but that is coming back to bite us with interest rate rises ! I’m no Boris fan but a lot to consider with the likes of Whitty and Vallance covering their backsides before the forthcoming public inquiry ! Take your point but SAGE and the Public Health advisors are tasked with providing science advice, it's not in their remit to look at the economic effects so you're being rather unfair on them, they are doing their job." Question to Chairman of the Sage Covid modelling committee Prof Graham Medley, Q: “So you exclusively model bad outcomes that require restrictions and omit just-as-likely outcomes that would not require restrictions?” A: “ We generally model what we are asked to model. There is a dialogue in which policy teams discuss with the modellers what they need to inform their policy”  | |||
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"Boris already said there will be No lockdown " Well in that case I'll open the sweepstake on when it starts. | |||
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"There won’t be another lockdown, there is no need, not enough people dying, nhs can cope The daily infection number is pretty irrelevant, ignore it" what a moronic statement. | |||
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"Boris already said there will be No lockdown Of course you are aware that he has said this before and lockdown happened all the same. You can't trust a word Johnson says....." Boris said he'd be dead in a ditch if Brexit didn't happen by Halloween 2019. *shrug* | |||
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" Take your point but SAGE and the Public Health advisors are tasked with providing science advice, it's not in their remit to look at the economic effects so you're being rather unfair on them, they are doing their job. Question to Chairman of the Sage Covid modelling committee Prof Graham Medley, Q: “So you exclusively model bad outcomes that require restrictions and omit just-as-likely outcomes that would not require restrictions?” A: “ We generally model what we are asked to model. There is a dialogue in which policy teams discuss with the modellers what they need to inform their policy” "First time that needs pointing out is that SAGE are an independent organisation As with most things on here at the moment the answer he gave from a scientific perspective is correct, the way it is being interpreted is wrong What SAGE would have been asked to do is various different modelling scenarios… of which one would have been “worse case if no new measures are introduced “ That is the one most anti vaccination people jump on and use to say the statisticians are wrong and overhype the situation…… However because the government would change policy based on worst case (restrictions, social distancing, lockdown ect) this is then redundant … think of it as changing course in the middle of a storm | |||
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" Take your point but SAGE and the Public Health advisors are tasked with providing science advice, it's not in their remit to look at the economic effects so you're being rather unfair on them, they are doing their job. Question to Chairman of the Sage Covid modelling committee Prof Graham Medley, Q: “So you exclusively model bad outcomes that require restrictions and omit just-as-likely outcomes that would not require restrictions?” A: “ We generally model what we are asked to model. There is a dialogue in which policy teams discuss with the modellers what they need to inform their policy”
First time that needs pointing out is that SAGE are an independent organisation
As with most things on here at the moment the answer he gave from a scientific perspective is correct, the way it is being interpreted is wrong
What SAGE would have been asked to do is various different modelling scenarios… of which one would have been “worse case if no new measures are introduced “
That is the one most anti vaccination people jump on and use to say the statisticians are wrong and overhype the situation……
However because the government would change policy based on worst case (restrictions, social distancing, lockdown ect) this is then redundant … think of it as changing course in the middle of a storm "1. All the more worrying - they are supposed to be independent! 2. Read the whole conversation - conversation was on Twitter last night. His comments are not being misinterpreted by anyone. They are matter of fact and blunt. 3. They are only being told to model on bad outcomes , regardless if there is evidence to provide the opportunity to model on better than or favourable outcomes which would not require restrictions. 4. This isn’t about vaccination. 5. You are happy that government policy is being shaped by the information the government are asking the scientists to produce for their policy? | |||
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" Take your point but SAGE and the Public Health advisors are tasked with providing science advice, it's not in their remit to look at the economic effects so you're being rather unfair on them, they are doing their job. Question to Chairman of the Sage Covid modelling committee Prof Graham Medley, Q: “So you exclusively model bad outcomes that require restrictions and omit just-as-likely outcomes that would not require restrictions?” A: “ We generally model what we are asked to model. There is a dialogue in which policy teams discuss with the modellers what they need to inform their policy”
First time that needs pointing out is that SAGE are an independent organisation
As with most things on here at the moment the answer he gave from a scientific perspective is correct, the way it is being interpreted is wrong
What SAGE would have been asked to do is various different modelling scenarios… of which one would have been “worse case if no new measures are introduced “
That is the one most anti vaccination people jump on and use to say the statisticians are wrong and overhype the situation……
However because the government would change policy based on worst case (restrictions, social distancing, lockdown ect) this is then redundant … think of it as changing course in the middle of a storm
1. All the more worrying - they are supposed to be independent!
2. Read the whole conversation - conversation was on Twitter last night. His comments are not being misinterpreted by anyone. They are matter of fact and blunt.
3. They are only being told to model on bad outcomes , regardless if there is evidence to provide the opportunity to model on better than or favourable outcomes which would not require restrictions.
4. This isn’t about vaccination.
5. You are happy that government policy is being shaped by the information the government are asking the scientists to produce for their policy?
"1) I don’t get this point of criticism… would you rather they got the best information from people who happened to be independent political influence or would you rather the government kept it in house 2) scientists and statisticians talk purely about the data…. The figures and graphs produced are blunt instruments 3) love to hear about these favourable outcomes you would like them to look into without any change of course at the moment …. Care to share what they would be? 4) never mentioned the word vaccination in terms of the modelling.. what I said is that anti-vaxxers jump on the worst case scenario modelling, and because that didn’t happen due to change of course measures , they use that to rubbish all of the modelling projections they do… 5) scientists, statisticians remits are to provide the information, ministers are the ones that dictate policy , civil servants roles are then to work out how to enact policy.. | |||
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"Whatever you think of Boris I will give him credit that he’s trying to balance public health vs the economy. Furlough only ended in October, so the government had basically paid people to stay at home and paid your tax and NI in the process for 20 months, that’s why we currently have a debt that’s running of 108% of our GDP. SAGE advisers keep pushing lockdowns because they still get paid their full wage, it doesn’t affect them. Morally Furlough should be reintroduced if we have another lockdown but we are having a tax rise to fund the NHS, how will that work if you are regurgitating the funds you have if you are paying it back out. Interest rates are going up, mortgages are going up, will the banks and building societies offer payment holidays again ? Finally, if we get another variant a couple of times a year (like the flu has variants) for the next 5 years are we going to keep opening and shutting the economy because if we do we are heading for a major recession with job losses and him repossessions because whatever you all might think the ‘pot is empty’ and we got around it last time by printing more money, but that is coming back to bite us with interest rate rises ! I’m no Boris fan but a lot to consider with the likes of Whitty and Vallance covering their backsides before the forthcoming public inquiry ! Take your point but SAGE and the Public Health advisors are tasked with providing science advice, it's not in their remit to look at the economic effects so you're being rather unfair on them, they are doing their job." So SAGE predicts between 600 to 6000 deaths a day, I wouldn’t call that advice, I’d say that’s pissing in the wind scare tactics ! | |||
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"There won’t be another lockdown, there is no need, not enough people dying, nhs can cope The daily infection number is pretty irrelevant, ignore it" Agreed, a family member is front line nurse and she said it isn’t half as bad as it was this time last year. Hospital admissions and deaths much lower.  | |||
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" 1) I don’t get this point of criticism… would you rather they got the best information from people who happened to be independent political influence or would you rather the government kept it in house 2) scientists and statisticians talk purely about the data…. The figures and graphs produced are blunt instruments 3) love to hear about these favourable outcomes you would like them to look into without any change of course at the moment …. Care to share what they would be? 4) never mentioned the word vaccination in terms of the modelling.. what I said is that anti-vaxxers jump on the worst case scenario modelling, and because that didn’t happen due to change of course measures , they use that to rubbish all of the modelling projections they do… 5) scientists, statisticians remits are to provide the information, ministers are the ones that dictate policy , civil servants roles are then to work out how to enact policy.. " 1 and 2. What this frank exchange from the Chair of sage modelling has highlighted is that what is and is not being put in to the modelling is in fact being controlled not by the independent scientists themselves, but by the very people who are setting the policy. 3. It doesn’t make you wonder why our modellers are outputting absolute Armageddon when South Africa are outputting real time data that appears to fly in the face of the data our government are using to follow the policy they have set? 1000s of lives affected by modelling that has been set up to only produce a picture of absolute carnage. 4. This isn’t about anti-Vaxxers . 5. I agree. The dialogue from the Chair appears to suggest that it is in fact the tail wagging the dog | |||
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"There won’t be another lockdown, there is no need, not enough people dying, nhs can cope The daily infection number is pretty irrelevant, ignore itwhat a moronic statement." Agreed. Delusional | |||
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"Does the government then have an obligation to offer funding for those who are unable to work because they cannot open legally? I know they did that last time, I'm just not sure if it's an obligation they have to fulfil or not. You would likely be entitled to statutory benefits " that's no good to live off | |||
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"Boris already said there will be No lockdown " Cast your mind back. He is the u turn champion. | |||
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" Agreed, a family member is front line nurse and she said it isn’t half as bad as it was this time last year. Hospital admissions and deaths much lower. "That's due to the vaccine rollout, it may or may not be as effective against the omicron variant which is why the booster program was ramped up and we are basically waiting to see what happens taking hope from south Africa and what's happening there. | |||
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"Boris already said there will be No lockdown Of course you are aware that he has said this before and lockdown happened all the same. You can't trust a word Johnson says....." Is this the SAME Boris that said he would lie in front of the bulldozers if Heathrow got go ahead for expansion. All lies, lies, lies everytime he opens his babbering mouth. Lockdown is two weeks overdue say what you like, its coming, it's just the big buffoon isn't capable of owning up to yet another total fuck up. He screwed up last Christmas, there's time for this year yet. Failing that, there are many more families about to loose loved ones January and February. And one for the Lockdown deniers, the ones who refused to wear masks to act sensibly and refuse vaccines. Everyday wasted from here on in, it will take two weeks of hard Lockdown to reverse. Our glorious leader is weeks behind the vaccine making any difference as too little, too late as always. As for the milder cases, be careful what 'you want to believe'. Might be less death as long as you can get a bed, if there are no beds then that might have an impact on chances of survival. Another 3 months of purgatory ahead, thanks to the bunch of idiots running the show. For what it is worth, if you are intending to meet family over the weekend, get LFT's and use them over daily over Christmas to help protect each other. | |||
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