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"A health worker in Italy who didn't want to be vaccinated tried wearing a false arm for his appointment. " It’s so tragic it’s funny!  | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated." A mandate is forced injection by law | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated." Except for the fact they’ve most likely put a lot of money into the NHS. You can’t make someone pay for treatment if they’ve technically been paying for it their entire working life. | |||
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"There is the Greek option of fines" Also tyrannical | |||
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"Mandatory vaccines are tyranny and if you support this, you are a tyrant. (My opinion) Discuss! " Maybe we should flee the tyranny and go in rubber boats to the EU ? | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated." really? Where did you hear/read that? | |||
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" You can’t make someone pay for treatment if they’ve technically been paying for it their entire working life. " Singapore are making people pay for Covid treatment if they are not vaccinated | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. really? Where did you hear/read that?" It was on the BBC website this morning | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated." A far proportion of lung cancer patients smoke, and diabetes sufferers are overweight and eat too much. Are we going to ask them to pay for their treatment too? What a terrible attitude to have  | |||
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"There is the Greek option of fines" Also tyrannical | |||
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"To the people talking about paying for treatment, ( I don’t know why the original post says nothing about this) … we have already paid it’s called national insurance taken out of your pay check! " Yes! | |||
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"To the people talking about paying for treatment, ( I don’t know why the original post says nothing about this) … we have already paid it’s called national insurance taken out of your pay check! Yes! " yes and no. Covid hasn't been "budgeted in". And given its really a pay as you go scheme, we can't bank on the NHS always being there for everything. Which is where I guess the slippery slope comes in. | |||
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"To the people talking about paying for treatment, ( I don’t know why the original post says nothing about this) … we have already paid it’s called national insurance taken out of your pay check! Yes! yes and no. Covid hasn't been "budgeted in". And given its really a pay as you go scheme, we can't bank on the NHS always being there for everything. Which is where I guess the slippery slope comes in. " If it’s not been budgeted in, why has it been raised? | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. really? Where did you hear/read that? It was on the BBC website this morning" does it say anything about age, co-morbidities or up to date vaccine status? Don't forget that anyone that hasn't taken the booster shot is now considered unvaccinated. So folks over 60 who haven't had the 3rd shot and are more likely to be on ventilators/ICU would be counted as unjabbed.... | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated." That’s a fab idea, should be the same for overweight people, smokers, people who eat unhealthy foods, who don’t exercise, take drugs, have casual sex encounters…did I miss anyone? Let them pay ?? | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. That’s a fab idea, should be the same for overweight people, smokers, people who eat unhealthy foods, who don’t exercise, take drugs, have casual sex encounters…did I miss anyone? Let them pay ??" This was an amazing answer until the bit about people having casual sex encounters  | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated." And where did you get that number from? Ventilators are barely used. I see every day patients and there is no match and never been what TV and government is telling you in comparison with reality. | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated."  | |||
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"To the people talking about paying for treatment, ( I don’t know why the original post says nothing about this) … we have already paid it’s called national insurance taken out of your pay check! Yes! yes and no. Covid hasn't been "budgeted in". And given its really a pay as you go scheme, we can't bank on the NHS always being there for everything. Which is where I guess the slippery slope comes in. If it’s not been budgeted in, why has it been raised?" why has what been raised ? | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated." we already do it's called taxes | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. And where did you get that number from? Ventilators are barely used. " The article said "patients requiring the highest level of care" | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated." The other 10% are quite likely to be obese or smokers who are vaccinated. As we have known for 18mths that being obese or a smoker dramatically increases your chance of developing severe symptoms, if these people have not stopped smoking or lost a lot of weight over the past 18mths then by your rationale they too should pay for treatment. | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. really? Where did you hear/read that? It was on the BBC website this morning does it say anything about age, co-morbidities or up to date vaccine status? Don't forget that anyone that hasn't taken the booster shot is now considered unvaccinated. So folks over 60 who haven't had the 3rd shot and are more likely to be on ventilators/ICU would be counted as unjabbed.... " I think you are asking too much! If they will show you that kind of data I think even the triple vaccinated will become antivaxers ?? | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. really? Where did you hear/read that? It was on the BBC website this morning does it say anything about age, co-morbidities or up to date vaccine status? Don't forget that anyone that hasn't taken the booster shot is now considered unvaccinated. So folks over 60 who haven't had the 3rd shot and are more likely to be on ventilators/ICU would be counted as unjabbed.... I think you are asking too much! If they will show you that kind of data I think even the triple vaccinated will become antivaxers ??" from the surveillance report, they are still reporting on two jabs in places. Eg hospitalisations and death splits. | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. really? Where did you hear/read that? It was on the BBC website this morning does it say anything about age, co-morbidities or up to date vaccine status? Don't forget that anyone that hasn't taken the booster shot is now considered unvaccinated. So folks over 60 who haven't had the 3rd shot and are more likely to be on ventilators/ICU would be counted as unjabbed.... I think you are asking too much! If they will show you that kind of data I think even the triple vaccinated will become antivaxers ??" i just find it amazing that the BBC (government department) can just throw out reports and figures like 90% of people in ICU are unvaccinated without breaking down the figures in the NHS (government department). With every day that passes and double jabbed people who haven't had the 3rd shot....the 'unvaccinated' numbers grow! At the start of the roll-out everyone thought that 2 jabs meant freedom. Now it seems not to be the case... | |||
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"Don't forget that anyone that hasn't taken the booster shot is now considered unvaccinated" So what you are saying is that anyone who falls out of the criteria of the booster programme is classed as unvaccinated? | |||
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"Don't forget that anyone that hasn't taken the booster shot is now considered unvaccinated So what you are saying is that anyone who falls out of the criteria of the booster programme is classed as unvaccinated?" Not true as the booster is just that! A precaution | |||
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"Don't forget that anyone that hasn't taken the booster shot is now considered unvaccinated So what you are saying is that anyone who falls out of the criteria of the booster programme is classed as unvaccinated? Not true as the booster is just that! A precaution "you fall into the category of unvaccinated if you don't have the third shot. If you've taken the two initial jabs but refuse the 3rd then you're an anti vaxxer... When your digital vaccine passport come out you will have to have taken ALL boosters as and when they roll out in order to keep your 'green status'. Miss one and your passport turns red and therefore classing you as unvaccinated. Jabs forever if you wish to participate in society. | |||
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"Not true as the booster is just that! A precaution "I know that, and you know that too xx | |||
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"Do people think a mandate means paying for treatment or something ? Lol original post is nothing about paying how has it turned into this "And to all those avoiding it. Stop being babies and go and get the bloody thing done. | |||
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"Not true as the booster is just that! A precaution
I know that, and you know that too xx"precautionary maybe but your vac passport will require it. With every new variant that comes out and every subsequent booster you will have to keep your passport up to date. Failure to do so will keep you out of your local pub, restaurant, gym, club etc.... in the irish parliament this week a member openly discussed the possiblity of preventing the non jabbed from entering supermarkets... | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated." For the ones who don’t catch Covid or don’t need hospital treatment, much less the ventilators, can they have their money returned for the massive cost of vaccination of others? You’re happy, of course, that they will be exempt from increases in NI and taxes to pay for the millions and millions of tests, treatment of those suffering the Ill effects of the vaccine and the cost of vaccination itself? That ok? | |||
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"you fall into the category of unvaccinated if you don't have the third shot. If you've taken the two initial jabs but refuse the 3rd then you're an anti vaxxer... When your digital vaccine passport come out you will have to have taken ALL boosters as and when they roll out in order to keep your 'green status'. Miss one and your passport turns red and therefore classing you as unvaccinated. Jabs forever if you wish to participate in society. " The 3rd dose is for people who had a severely weakened immune system when they received their 1st or 2nd dose. The vaccine may not have given them as much protection as it can for people who did not have a severely weakened immune system. This is different from the booster jab xx | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. For the ones who don’t catch Covid or don’t need hospital treatment, much less the ventilators, can they have their money returned for the massive cost of vaccination of others? You’re happy, of course, that they will be exempt from increases in NI and taxes to pay for the millions and millions of tests, treatment of those suffering the Ill effects of the vaccine and the cost of vaccination itself? That ok? " Well said | |||
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"you fall into the category of unvaccinated if you don't have the third shot. If you've taken the two initial jabs but refuse the 3rd then you're an anti vaxxer... When your digital vaccine passport come out you will have to have taken ALL boosters as and when they roll out in order to keep your 'green status'. Miss one and your passport turns red and therefore classing you as unvaccinated. Jabs forever if you wish to participate in society. The 3rd dose is for people who had a severely weakened immune system when they received their 1st or 2nd dose. The vaccine may not have given them as much protection as it can for people who did not have a severely weakened immune system. This is different from the booster jab xx"i'm sure you're right but....if you DON'T take your boosters in the future (everyone)...your passport will turn red and therefore preventing you from participating in society. Can you not see how this works yet? ATM it's all precautionary (in their words) but going forward and wishing to have full vaccine status you will be required to have taken every jab that they want you to. Didn't the government buy up 114million vaccine shots this week? Enough for the next two boosters for everyone in britain.... that's a lot of precaution. Jabs every six/twelve months will be the reality in order to keep your vax passport up to date. | |||
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"Mandatory vaccines are tyranny and if you support this, you are a tyrant. (My opinion) Discuss! " Personally don't see that trying to save people's lives is tyrannical but maybe our definition of tyranny differs. | |||
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"Not true as the booster is just that! A precaution
I know that, and you know that too xx
precautionary maybe but your vac passport will require it. With every new variant that comes out and every subsequent booster you will have to keep your passport up to date. Failure to do so will keep you out of your local pub, restaurant, gym, club etc.... in the irish parliament this week a member openly discussed the possiblity of preventing the non jabbed from entering supermarkets..."Possibly, maybe pie in the sky thinking and the member was quite possibly an anti vaccination supporter
And this is the Irish parliament we are taking about 
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"To the people talking about paying for treatment, ( I don’t know why the original post says nothing about this) … we have already paid it’s called national insurance taken out of your pay check! " well said totaly agree on non forcement of jabs suposed to be a free country | |||
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"Not true as the booster is just that! A precaution
I know that, and you know that too xx
precautionary maybe but your vac passport will require it. With every new variant that comes out and every subsequent booster you will have to keep your passport up to date. Failure to do so will keep you out of your local pub, restaurant, gym, club etc.... in the irish parliament this week a member openly discussed the possiblity of preventing the non jabbed from entering supermarkets...
Possibly, maybe pie in the sky thinking and the member was quite possibly an anti vaccination supporter
And this is the Irish parliament we are taking about
"PMSL...yeah the irish parliament!! Bunch of thicko paddies yeah?? What do they know eh? The member was in full support of the roll out and totally behind the effort to mandate vaccines .... so not an anti vaxxer. | |||
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"You’re happy, of course, that they will be exempt from increases in NI and taxes to pay for the millions and millions of tests, treatment of those suffering the Ill effects of the vaccine and the cost of vaccination itself? That ok? " Sounds reasonable. If you don't get a vaccination you pay your share of the costs of all those intensive care beds full of people who didn't get vaccinated. If you do get the vaccine you pay the £15 per shot instead. I know which one I'd go for! | |||
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"Mandatory vaccines are tyranny and if you support this, you are a tyrant. (My opinion) Discuss! " agree mandatory vaccines is step too far; if people choose to take them so be it. Current jabs don’t work and advocating more boosters every 3 months or so doesn’t make sense. There is also a thing called your immune system; I’m most cases well able to fend off most viruses without the need for jabs every few months. And jabbing young children is absolutely insane and increases risk of heart issues - even the U.K. gov acknowledged this in their guidance | |||
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"Mandatory vaccines are tyranny and if you support this, you are a tyrant. (My opinion) Discuss! Personally don't see that trying to save people's lives is tyrannical but maybe our definition of tyranny differs." Saving lives by providing the opportunity for vaccination is good govt practice. Forcing people to have the vaccine either directly (through mandate) or indirectly by excluding people from society is very much within the definition of tyranny. People should have the right to determine what happens to their own body. It is the single most fundamental right we all have. That is not an anti-vax statement. That is a pro-choice statement. | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated." Your statement above is a blatant lie and is extremely misleading!! 90% of people on ventilators are not unvaccinated.,, also the term vaccinated / unvaccinated has become a very loose term due to variants and wayning effects of all vaccines ! | |||
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"Mandatory vaccines are tyranny and if you support this, you are a tyrant. (My opinion) Discuss! Personally don't see that trying to save people's lives is tyrannical but maybe our definition of tyranny differs. Saving lives by providing the opportunity for vaccination is good govt practice. Forcing people to have the vaccine either directly (through mandate) or indirectly by excluding people from society is very much within the definition of tyranny. People should have the right to determine what happens to their own body. It is the single most fundamental right we all have. That is not an anti-vax statement. That is a pro-choice statement." I pretty much agree with you. Whilst I agree none vaccinated should not be excluded from normal life. But With rights come responsibilities. Excluding people from shops or even pubs and restaurants I think is too far. Excluding them from mass events such as gigs sports events nightclubs and festivals I think should be considered. Of course travel is a different matter as a lot of that is out of the Uk's hands. | |||
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"Mandatory vaccines are tyranny and if you support this, you are a tyrant. (My opinion) Discuss! " Even though I am generally a supporter of choice, when the science says these vaccines are making a big difference... and not enough people are taking them up, then it's an understandable policy. | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. really? Where did you hear/read that? It was on the BBC website this morning" Yip you heard it from the paid Propaganda wing of Big Pharma… so it must be 100% true & factually correct then…. we as common people are being deceived and lied to at a rate never ever seen before in history… this is called tyranny ! please please wake up to this fact ! | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. really? Where did you hear/read that? It was on the BBC website this morning" Yeah and we all believe the BBC lol. Certainly not a trusted source. | |||
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"Mandatory vaccines are tyranny and if you support this, you are a tyrant. (My opinion) Discuss! Personally don't see that trying to save people's lives is tyrannical but maybe our definition of tyranny differs. Saving lives by providing the opportunity for vaccination is good govt practice. Forcing people to have the vaccine either directly (through mandate) or indirectly by excluding people from society is very much within the definition of tyranny. People should have the right to determine what happens to their own body. It is the single most fundamental right we all have. That is not an anti-vax statement. That is a pro-choice statement." Problem with this is invariably people who believe in this kind of pro-choice also don't want to bear any consequences of their choice. And by the same token do you think its peoples right to drink and drive with impunity? Theres also a large crossover of people who are 'pro choice' when it comes to vaccinations but aren't as keen on it when it comes to womens agency over their own bodies. | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. Your statement above is a blatant lie and is extremely misleading!! 90% of people on ventilators are not unvaccinated.,, also the term vaccinated / unvaccinated has become a very loose term due to variants and wayning effects of all vaccines ! " Yes but but...but...the BBC! They don't lie or distort truth and facts surely! 
It's good to see and read about more and more people coming to realise the tyranny getting rolled out. Hope it's not too late | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. really? Where did you hear/read that? It was on the BBC website this morning Yeah and we all believe the BBC lol. Certainly not a trusted source." Yeah YouTube Facebook and telegram or some random website with loads of dodgy ads is the way to go instead. | |||
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"A health worker in Italy who didn't want to be vaccinated tried wearing a false arm for his appointment. " He wasn't a health worker. This is the sort of elaboration and misinformation that is so dangerous. This was nothing less than a fraud and a criminal act in order to get a vaccination certificate. | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. A far proportion of lung cancer patients smoke, and diabetes sufferers are overweight and eat too much. Are we going to ask them to pay for their treatment too? What a terrible attitude to have "Yes, absolutely we should. As a society we can no longer afford to pay for people who don't take responsibility for their own health and then freeload when they get ill. It's the same with benefits. I think we should give people the freedom to choose unhealthy behaviours, but only if they pay for that choice. Risk should always have a price to pay. Same with climate change, the only way to resolve it is to price the true risk of cars and other polluting behaviours and products to society and the planet. | |||
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"You’re happy, of course, that they will be exempt from increases in NI and taxes to pay for the millions and millions of tests, treatment of those suffering the Ill effects of the vaccine and the cost of vaccination itself? That ok? Sounds reasonable. If you don't get a vaccination you pay your share of the costs of all those intensive care beds full of people who didn't get vaccinated. If you do get the vaccine you pay the £15 per shot instead. I know which one I'd go for!" … Will the rest of the unvaccinated pay for me too? Like sharing a health care plan ? No ! I’ll pay for me! So as not to burden the nhs … but the millions of tests too, the vaccines and their administration, the interest on the debt … all that you’re ok with picking up my share? | |||
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"To the people talking about paying for treatment, ( I don’t know why the original post says nothing about this) … we have already paid it’s called national insurance taken out of your pay check! " Yes, but that shouldn't mean you can do whatever you want, take no responsibility for your own health and behaviours, and just keep taking from the system. There are plans to separate healthcare as a new tax from national insurance. This is a good idea. We can then create a new social contract between individuals, society and the NHS that reflects people's lifestyles and risk factors. If you want to smoke, drink heavily, take drugs, that is your choice as an individual, and you can then opt out of paying your healthcare tax, or you pay much higher rates than others who lead healthier lives, so that your risks are priced in. Eventually it will have to come to this because society can't afford the NHS in its current form. I don't see why I as a taxpayer should pay for unvaccinated people to get treatment or for drug users and smokers when that was a choice they made. Victims of cancers unrelated to lifestyle factors who didn't choose to get cancer are being delayed treatment now because of the unvaccinated who chose not to be jabbed, absorbing scarce healthcare resources. That is unjust, morally wrong, and unaffordable. | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. Your statement above is a blatant lie and is extremely misleading!! 90% of people on ventilators are not unvaccinated.,, also the term vaccinated / unvaccinated has become a very loose term due to variants and wayning effects of all vaccines ! Yes but but...but...the BBC! They don't lie or distort truth and facts surely!
It's good to see and read about more and more people coming to realise the tyranny getting rolled out. Hope it's not too late"Was the same news on Chanel 4 so are they all lying? Very few people who have been vaccinated end up on a ventilator! | |||
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"Mandatory vaccines are tyranny and if you support this, you are a tyrant. (My opinion) Discuss! Personally don't see that trying to save people's lives is tyrannical but maybe our definition of tyranny differs. Saving lives by providing the opportunity for vaccination is good govt practice. Forcing people to have the vaccine either directly (through mandate) or indirectly by excluding people from society is very much within the definition of tyranny. People should have the right to determine what happens to their own body. It is the single most fundamental right we all have. That is not an anti-vax statement. That is a pro-choice statement. I pretty much agree with you. Whilst I agree none vaccinated should not be excluded from normal life. But With rights come responsibilities. Excluding people from shops or even pubs and restaurants I think is too far. Excluding them from mass events such as gigs sports events nightclubs and festivals I think should be considered. Of course travel is a different matter as a lot of that is out of the Uk's hands." I don’t fully agree. I think mandatory tests before attending events are far more important than only allowing entry if vaccinated. It is absolutely clear now that vaccinated people still transmit (arguably even more dangerous as many will be asymptomatic and not even know they are spreading, while most unvaccinated will know they are ill and not attend). Vaccination is actually leading to complacency with so many people walking around like they are invincible and zero threat to everyone else. Reduced threat yes but the threat is still there. Testing is more effective to determine entry to events (and far safer for everyone). | |||
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"Mandatory vaccines are tyranny and if you support this, you are a tyrant. (My opinion) Discuss! Personally don't see that trying to save people's lives is tyrannical but maybe our definition of tyranny differs. Saving lives by providing the opportunity for vaccination is good govt practice. Forcing people to have the vaccine either directly (through mandate) or indirectly by excluding people from society is very much within the definition of tyranny. People should have the right to determine what happens to their own body. It is the single most fundamental right we all have. That is not an anti-vax statement. That is a pro-choice statement. I pretty much agree with you. Whilst I agree none vaccinated should not be excluded from normal life. But With rights come responsibilities. Excluding people from shops or even pubs and restaurants I think is too far. Excluding them from mass events such as gigs sports events nightclubs and festivals I think should be considered. Of course travel is a different matter as a lot of that is out of the Uk's hands. I don’t fully agree. I think mandatory tests before attending events are far more important than only allowing entry if vaccinated. It is absolutely clear now that vaccinated people still transmit (arguably even more dangerous as many will be asymptomatic and not even know they are spreading, while most unvaccinated will know they are ill and not attend). Vaccination is actually leading to complacency with so many people walking around like they are invincible and zero threat to everyone else. Reduced threat yes but the threat is still there. Testing is more effective to determine entry to events (and far safer for everyone)." I agree on testing (but then there is a question if cost. Should we pay for our own tests?) On the compcancy bit, I wonder how symptons related to transmission. Eg how much of a risk is an asymptomatic person ? There seems to be very few studies on transmission and vaccine status. | |||
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"Mandatory vaccines are tyranny and if you support this, you are a tyrant. (My opinion) Discuss! Personally don't see that trying to save people's lives is tyrannical but maybe our definition of tyranny differs. Saving lives by providing the opportunity for vaccination is good govt practice. Forcing people to have the vaccine either directly (through mandate) or indirectly by excluding people from society is very much within the definition of tyranny. People should have the right to determine what happens to their own body. It is the single most fundamental right we all have. That is not an anti-vax statement. That is a pro-choice statement. Problem with this is invariably people who believe in this kind of pro-choice also don't want to bear any consequences of their choice. And by the same token do you think its peoples right to drink and drive with impunity? Theres also a large crossover of people who are 'pro choice' when it comes to vaccinations but aren't as keen on it when it comes to womens agency over their own bodies. " This - got it in one. The issue is "choice" on the other side too. As taxpayers, the vaccinated don't have a choice over whether to pay for the treatment of the unvaccinated. Mandatory vaccinations are wrong. People should absolutely not be forced to have a vaccination. But the risk of their choices should be priced in. It's the only way to balance choice and individual freedom with responsibility and society. Germany is pricing it by denying access to entry to shops and other areas of public life. Singapore is pricing it by refusing to treat the unvaccinated. We need a mature public debate about what is a reasonable and appropriate price to pay for that choice. We have to value people's lives as a society by factoring in and pricing the risk of the choices individuals make. | |||
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"Mandatory vaccines are tyranny and if you support this, you are a tyrant. (My opinion) Discuss! Personally don't see that trying to save people's lives is tyrannical but maybe our definition of tyranny differs. Saving lives by providing the opportunity for vaccination is good govt practice. Forcing people to have the vaccine either directly (through mandate) or indirectly by excluding people from society is very much within the definition of tyranny. People should have the right to determine what happens to their own body. It is the single most fundamental right we all have. That is not an anti-vax statement. That is a pro-choice statement. Problem with this is invariably people who believe in this kind of pro-choice also don't want to bear any consequences of their choice. And by the same token do you think its peoples right to drink and drive with impunity? Theres also a large crossover of people who are 'pro choice' when it comes to vaccinations but aren't as keen on it when it comes to womens agency over their own bodies. " Those are all interesting topics and warrant a thread all of their own. Certainly a lot to unpack from your statements! I think saying “invariably people who believe in this kind of pro-choice also don't want to bear any consequences of their choice” is a sweeping statement and generalisation. Of course the world is full of selfish people and it is far more complex than a simple binary vaccinated vs not vaccinated. I can only talk from my personal experience as have no data to support what I am going to say... I know a lot of vaccinated people and I also know several unvaccinated people (friends and family). In MY experience the unvaccinated people I know are being far more sensible, careful and considerate of others than many (not all) of the vaccinated people. Many of the vaccinated are walking around like they are invincible and pose zero threat to everyone else. Plus there are some who are asymptomatic and spreading without even knowing! | |||
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"To the people talking about paying for treatment, ( I don’t know why the original post says nothing about this) … we have already paid it’s called national insurance taken out of your pay check! Yes, but that shouldn't mean you can do whatever you want, take no responsibility for your own health and behaviours, and just keep taking from the system. There are plans to separate healthcare as a new tax from national insurance. This is a good idea. We can then create a new social contract between individuals, society and the NHS that reflects people's lifestyles and risk factors. If you want to smoke, drink heavily, take drugs, that is your choice as an individual, and you can then opt out of paying your healthcare tax, or you pay much higher rates than others who lead healthier lives, so that your risks are priced in. Eventually it will have to come to this because society can't afford the NHS in its current form. I don't see why I as a taxpayer should pay for unvaccinated people to get treatment or for drug users and smokers when that was a choice they made. Victims of cancers unrelated to lifestyle factors who didn't choose to get cancer are being delayed treatment now because of the unvaccinated who chose not to be jabbed, absorbing scarce healthcare resources. That is unjust, morally wrong, and unaffordable." What about those addicts of prescribed medicines? Those suffering the effects of vaccines? Who’s paying for them? | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated." Obese people with obesity relates issues (heart issues, diabetes etc) should pay for that treatment Smokers with lung cancer also Drinkers with liver issues too See how that works | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. Obese people with obesity relates issues (heart issues, diabetes etc) should pay for that treatment Smokers with lung cancer also Drinkers with liver issues too See how that works" And there is a debate to be had here too. Should tax payers pick up tax bill for all regardless of the choices of the individual ? Is there a risk of moral hazard... Would people take different actions if they note the cost of responsibility. | |||
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"Mandatory vaccines are tyranny and if you support this, you are a tyrant. (My opinion) Discuss! Personally don't see that trying to save people's lives is tyrannical but maybe our definition of tyranny differs. Saving lives by providing the opportunity for vaccination is good govt practice. Forcing people to have the vaccine either directly (through mandate) or indirectly by excluding people from society is very much within the definition of tyranny. People should have the right to determine what happens to their own body. It is the single most fundamental right we all have. That is not an anti-vax statement. That is a pro-choice statement." Very well said! | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. Obese people with obesity relates issues (heart issues, diabetes etc) should pay for that treatment Smokers with lung cancer also Drinkers with liver issues too See how that works" Yes, 100%. Will happen eventually, sooner the better. | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. Obese people with obesity relates issues (heart issues, diabetes etc) should pay for that treatment Smokers with lung cancer also Drinkers with liver issues too See how that works And there is a debate to be had here too. Should tax payers pick up tax bill for all regardless of the choices of the individual ? Is there a risk of moral hazard... Would people take different actions if they note the cost of responsibility. " 100% - Quote today from Nicki Credland, chair of the British Association of Critical Care Nurses, "All nurses understand they have to provide non-judgemental care. But what we find difficult is that giving care to patients who have chosen not to be vaccinated has a knock-on effect on other patients. We are still human beings and we still get angry at things we think aren't just.It does take a toll on nurses and I am also hearing about patients who are being rude, disrespectful and even violent to some nurses trying to look after them". We can protect "choice" but choices need to be "priced" for their risk so we can also protect fairness in a just society. | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. Except for the fact they’ve most likely put a lot of money into the NHS. You can’t make someone pay for treatment if they’ve technically been paying for it their entire working life. " | |||
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"I know a lot of vaccinated people and I also know several unvaccinated people (friends and family). In MY experience the unvaccinated people I know are being far more sensible, careful and considerate of others than many (not all) of the vaccinated people. Many of the vaccinated are walking around like they are invincible and pose zero threat to everyone else. Plus there are some who are asymptomatic and spreading without even knowing! " You have made a good point in relation to the unvaccinated friends of yours being considerate of others and also a good point of people who are vaccinated thinking they are invincible. I have seen lots of thread posts by the vaccinated saying they aren't going to have a booster, they aren't going to wear a mask, they are going to fight against restrictions etc. xx | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. Obese people with obesity relates issues (heart issues, diabetes etc) should pay for that treatment Smokers with lung cancer also Drinkers with liver issues too See how that works Yes, 100%. Will happen eventually, sooner the better." The sooner the better Fuck sake And out of curiosity, which bureaucrat would you like to be in charge of whether or not someone should get free healthcare Would you support an individual insurance system like the Americans? You can then pay for your own level of risk? | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. Obese people with obesity relates issues (heart issues, diabetes etc) should pay for that treatment Smokers with lung cancer also Drinkers with liver issues too See how that works Yes, 100%. Will happen eventually, sooner the better." Not quite as black and white as that. Who is going to distinguish between the fact that the smoker, alcoholic, drug user, substance user or obese person isn't using any of those as a support mechanism for trauma that they have experienced/witnessed? Who is going to say that the soldier suffering from PTSD due to what he/she has seen on a tour of duty and is using alcohol as a coping mechanism which results in Cirrhosis of the liver shouldn't receive NHS treatment? Or the person that was abused and is using substances as a support mechanism. Who decides that they are not worthy of NHS treatment? xx | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. Obese people with obesity relates issues (heart issues, diabetes etc) should pay for that treatment Smokers with lung cancer also Drinkers with liver issues too See how that works Yes, 100%. Will happen eventually, sooner the better. Not quite as black and white as that. Who is going to distinguish between the fact that the smoker, alcoholic, drug user, substance user or obese person isn't using any of those as a support mechanism for trauma that they have experienced/witnessed? Who is going to say that the soldier suffering from PTSD due to what he/she has seen on a tour of duty and is using alcohol as a coping mechanism which results in Cirrhosis of the liver shouldn't receive NHS treatment? Or the person that was abused and is using substances as a support mechanism. Who decides that they are not worthy of NHS treatment? xx" Probably someone in the DWP, who are of course famous for their compassion and understanding and have never done anything wrong I mean come on, who can you trust of not the government | |||
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"I'd add fast drivers. Eventually we'll be making everyone pay for NHS treatment. " We all already do. | |||
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"I'd add fast drivers. Eventually we'll be making everyone pay for NHS treatment. We all already do." Exactly, it's called taxation. But if people are going to be restricted from accessing services they've 'paid for' then should they be exempt from paying? | |||
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"I'd add fast drivers. Eventually we'll be making everyone pay for NHS treatment. We all already do. Exactly, it's called taxation. But if people are going to be restricted from accessing services they've 'paid for' then should they be exempt from paying?" Precisely. Better still, we scrap the ridiculous exemptions discussed in the thread | |||
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"I'd add fast drivers. Eventually we'll be making everyone pay for NHS treatment. We all already do. Exactly, it's called taxation. But if people are going to be restricted from accessing services they've 'paid for' then should they be exempt from paying?" I'm not arguing for either side, as I have paid for private treatment. But I haven't used a bus since I was at school and I still pay local taxes for them. | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. Obese people with obesity relates issues (heart issues, diabetes etc) should pay for that treatment Smokers with lung cancer also Drinkers with liver issues too See how that works" If the conservative government got their way and the NHS was sold off, converted into an individual insurance policy based system, this is exactly what would happen. If you buy personal private health insurance your policy cost will be determined by your lifestyle choices, any pre-existing conditions, vaccination history etc. In exactly the same way that drivers with penalty points, or cars that are parked on the street in known bad areas, etc, are charged higher premiums. Life insurance companies will already have got statistical tools that can include the effects of vaccination history, attitude to masking, social distancing etc on lifetime cost of medical care, life expectancy and required policy costs. | |||
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"I'd add fast drivers. Eventually we'll be making everyone pay for NHS treatment. We all already do. Exactly, it's called taxation. But if people are going to be restricted from accessing services they've 'paid for' then should they be exempt from paying? Precisely. Better still, we scrap the ridiculous exemptions discussed in the thread" 100% | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. Obese people with obesity relates issues (heart issues, diabetes etc) should pay for that treatment Smokers with lung cancer also Drinkers with liver issues too See how that works If the conservative government got their way and the NHS was sold off, converted into an individual insurance policy based system, this is exactly what would happen. If you buy personal private health insurance your policy cost will be determined by your lifestyle choices, any pre-existing conditions, vaccination history etc. In exactly the same way that drivers with penalty points, or cars that are parked on the street in known bad areas, etc, are charged higher premiums. Life insurance companies will already have got statistical tools that can include the effects of vaccination history, attitude to masking, social distancing etc on lifetime cost of medical care, life expectancy and required policy costs. " I've always found it funny that the Americans reason for wanting to keep their health insurance as it is (private insurance companies) is 'can't trust the bloody government with it' mirrors our reason for the opposite 'keep it government run as we can't trust bloody insurance companies' lol | |||
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"If the conservative government got their way and the NHS was sold off, converted into an individual insurance policy based system, this is exactly what would happen. If you buy personal private health insurance your policy cost will be determined by your lifestyle choices, any pre-existing conditions, vaccination history etc. In exactly the same way that drivers with penalty points, or cars that are parked on the street in known bad areas, etc, are charged higher premiums. Life insurance companies will already have got statistical tools that can include the effects of vaccination history, attitude to masking, social distancing etc on lifetime cost of medical care, life expectancy and required policy costs. " Privatisation isn't going to happen though. Circle took over Hinchingbrooke Hospital in Cambridgeshire in 2012, it was the first privately-run NHS hospital. Circle pulled out of the franchise, blaming funding cuts and a crisis in A&E xx | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. A far proportion of lung cancer patients smoke, and diabetes sufferers are overweight and eat too much. Are we going to ask them to pay for their treatment too? What a terrible attitude to have
Yes, absolutely we should. As a society we can no longer afford to pay for people who don't take responsibility for their own health and then freeload when they get ill. It's the same with benefits. I think we should give people the freedom to choose unhealthy behaviours, but only if they pay for that choice. Risk should always have a price to pay. Same with climate change, the only way to resolve it is to price the true risk of cars and other polluting behaviours and products to society and the planet. "Effectively a social credit score then … may aswell live in China | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. really? Where did you hear/read that? It was on the BBC website this morning does it say anything about age, co-morbidities or up to date vaccine status? Don't forget that anyone that hasn't taken the booster shot is now considered unvaccinated. So folks over 60 who haven't had the 3rd shot and are more likely to be on ventilators/ICU would be counted as unjabbed.... " Well said | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. A far proportion of lung cancer patients smoke, and diabetes sufferers are overweight and eat too much. Are we going to ask them to pay for their treatment too? What a terrible attitude to have
Yes, absolutely we should. As a society we can no longer afford to pay for people who don't take responsibility for their own health and then freeload when they get ill. It's the same with benefits. I think we should give people the freedom to choose unhealthy behaviours, but only if they pay for that choice. Risk should always have a price to pay. Same with climate change, the only way to resolve it is to price the true risk of cars and other polluting behaviours and products to society and the planet.
Effectively a social credit score then … may aswell live in China "You’re spot on….as for the above comment, where does it end, when will the large corporations that profit from the supply of unhealthy foods, alcohol, cigarettes and the onset of our throw away society start to pay the price for the health and environmental impacts. Should the consumer/addict always be held to account? Some people don’t have the mental capacity to see passed the product advertisement or the mental strength to say no. Especially with behavioural science becoming such a powerful tool nowadays. Are you the type to blame the drug addict rather than the drug dealer who profits from people’s misery and need to escape reality. | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated." No they’re not. Check the official figures. | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. A far proportion of lung cancer patients smoke, and diabetes sufferers are overweight and eat too much. Are we going to ask them to pay for their treatment too? What a terrible attitude to have
Yes, absolutely we should. As a society we can no longer afford to pay for people who don't take responsibility for their own health and then freeload when they get ill. It's the same with benefits. I think we should give people the freedom to choose unhealthy behaviours, but only if they pay for that choice. Risk should always have a price to pay. Same with climate change, the only way to resolve it is to price the true risk of cars and other polluting behaviours and products to society and the planet. "Do you realise that this will lead to only the richest 2% being able to drive, fly, live life as they wish, while the rest of us are restricted like hell? It’s literally takes us backwards to hundreds of years ago effectively where 98% live a shit life and only the ruling classes did the “nice things”. How can anyone not see this. | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. And where did you get that number from? Ventilators are barely used. I see every day patients and there is no match and never been what TV and government is telling you in comparison with reality. " Well said !... We've heard from a nurse, surgeon, doctor, owner of a large care home and even a scientist from a well known company amongst MANY others. The reality does NOT match what is reported, many professionals don't understand what all the panic is about !. | |||
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"Well said !... We've heard from a nurse, surgeon, doctor, owner of a large care home and even a scientist from a well known company amongst MANY others. The reality does NOT match what is reported, many professionals don't understand what all the panic is about !."  really? xx | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. A far proportion of lung cancer patients smoke, and diabetes sufferers are overweight and eat too much. Are we going to ask them to pay for their treatment too? What a terrible attitude to have
Yes, absolutely we should. As a society we can no longer afford to pay for people who don't take responsibility for their own health and then freeload when they get ill. It's the same with benefits. I think we should give people the freedom to choose unhealthy behaviours, but only if they pay for that choice. Risk should always have a price to pay. Same with climate change, the only way to resolve it is to price the true risk of cars and other polluting behaviours and products to society and the planet.
Do you realise that this will lead to only the richest 2% being able to drive, fly, live life as they wish, while the rest of us are restricted like hell? It’s literally takes us backwards to hundreds of years ago effectively where 98% live a shit life and only the ruling classes did the “nice things”.
How can anyone not see this. "I'd say there is a space between in which a discussion could be had. I don't believe anyone should miss out on medical care because they can't afford it. But I don't necessarily get to the state supporting all, for all costs, and i do wonder if there are adverse effects from not putting some responsibility on people. However this will have to happen slowly over time in most cases, and move towards treating causes rather than symptoms (eg spending more on supporting ppl not become overweight) | |||
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"Well said !... We've heard from a nurse, surgeon, doctor, owner of a large care home and even a scientist from a well known company amongst MANY others. The reality does NOT match what is reported, many professionals don't understand what all the panic is about !. really? xx"OBTW, I am a professional within the NHS xx | |||
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"If somebody is anti vax & voted remain they must be hugely conflicted now watching what EU governments are doing. I'm double jabbed & will defo get my booster volountarily but making it compulsory is plain wrong & only going to incite civil unrest. Every European government currently in power is gonna be wiped out in the next set of elections I expect. " But surely every country in the EU is still soviergn and can decide its own rules on health. | |||
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"If somebody is anti vax & voted remain they must be hugely conflicted now watching what EU governments are doing. I'm double jabbed & will defo get my booster volountarily but making it compulsory is plain wrong & only going to incite civil unrest. Every European government currently in power is gonna be wiped out in the next set of elections I expect. But surely every country in the EU is still soviergn and can decide its own rules on health. " They will lamely follow the Germans like sheep. Mark my words. Time will tell if I'm correct or not. It's the control the EU craves over its citizens via the back door. | |||
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"If somebody is anti vax & voted remain they must be hugely conflicted now watching what EU governments are doing. I'm double jabbed & will defo get my booster volountarily but making it compulsory is plain wrong & only going to incite civil unrest. Every European government currently in power is gonna be wiped out in the next set of elections I expect. " Indo wonder what this Venn diagram would look like ... | |||
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"If somebody is anti vax & voted remain they must be hugely conflicted now watching what EU governments are doing. I'm double jabbed & will defo get my booster volountarily but making it compulsory is plain wrong & only going to incite civil unrest. Every European government currently in power is gonna be wiped out in the next set of elections I expect. But surely every country in the EU is still soviergn and can decide its own rules on health. " There is more to it than that. The EU is trying to leverage Schengen to do a powergrab on public health. Competency on public health still rests with 'member states'. However, if any member state/region wants to close its borders it will clash with Brussels vis-a-vis Schengen...with Brussels claiming competency on borders rests at EU level. Thus Von Der Leyen is saying that Brussels should take control of public health vis-a-vis coronavirus. And you can be certain that that power will never be handed back This is how the EU works... secretively. | |||
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"If somebody is anti vax & voted remain they must be hugely conflicted now watching what EU governments are doing. I'm double jabbed & will defo get my booster volountarily but making it compulsory is plain wrong & only going to incite civil unrest. Every European government currently in power is gonna be wiped out in the next set of elections I expect. But surely every country in the EU is still soviergn and can decide its own rules on health. There is more to it than that. The EU is trying to leverage Schengen to do a powergrab on public health. Competency on public health still rests with 'member states'. However, if any member state/region wants to close its borders it will clash with Brussels vis-a-vis Schengen...with Brussels claiming competency on borders rests at EU level. Thus Von Der Leyen is saying that Brussels should take control of public health vis-a-vis coronavirus. And you can be certain that that power will never be handed back This is how the EU works... secretively." Lol. Very entertaining. | |||
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"If somebody is anti vax & voted remain they must be hugely conflicted now watching what EU governments are doing. I'm double jabbed & will defo get my booster volountarily but making it compulsory is plain wrong & only going to incite civil unrest. Every European government currently in power is gonna be wiped out in the next set of elections I expect. Indo wonder what this Venn diagram would look like ..." Remain and anti-vax would likely be two separate circles. | |||
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"If somebody is anti vax & voted remain they must be hugely conflicted now watching what EU governments are doing. I'm double jabbed & will defo get my booster volountarily but making it compulsory is plain wrong & only going to incite civil unrest. Every European government currently in power is gonna be wiped out in the next set of elections I expect. Indo wonder what this Venn diagram would look like ..." I don't know that many anti vaxxers. Maybe a dozen but they all voted brexit, a couple are having a few regrets about their brexit vote but the rest still 100% pro brexit. They all really love Donald trump too weirdly enough. | |||
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"If somebody is anti vax & voted remain they must be hugely conflicted now watching what EU governments are doing. I'm double jabbed & will defo get my booster volountarily but making it compulsory is plain wrong & only going to incite civil unrest. Every European government currently in power is gonna be wiped out in the next set of elections I expect. But surely every country in the EU is still soviergn and can decide its own rules on health. There is more to it than that. The EU is trying to leverage Schengen to do a powergrab on public health. Competency on public health still rests with 'member states'. However, if any member state/region wants to close its borders it will clash with Brussels vis-a-vis Schengen...with Brussels claiming competency on borders rests at EU level. Thus Von Der Leyen is saying that Brussels should take control of public health vis-a-vis coronavirus. And you can be certain that that power will never be handed back This is how the EU works... secretively." The Schengen Borders Code (SBC) provides Member States with the capability of temporarily reintroducing border control at the internal borders in the event of a serious threat to public policy or internal security... ...The reintroduction of border control is a prerogative of the Member States. The Commission may issue an opinion regarding the necessity of the measure and its proportionality but cannot veto a Member State’s decision to reintroduce border control | |||
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"If somebody is anti vax & voted remain they must be hugely conflicted now watching what EU governments are doing. I'm double jabbed & will defo get my booster volountarily but making it compulsory is plain wrong & only going to incite civil unrest. Every European government currently in power is gonna be wiped out in the next set of elections I expect. But surely every country in the EU is still soviergn and can decide its own rules on health. There is more to it than that. The EU is trying to leverage Schengen to do a powergrab on public health. Competency on public health still rests with 'member states'. However, if any member state/region wants to close its borders it will clash with Brussels vis-a-vis Schengen...with Brussels claiming competency on borders rests at EU level. Thus Von Der Leyen is saying that Brussels should take control of public health vis-a-vis coronavirus. And you can be certain that that power will never be handed back This is how the EU works... secretively. The Schengen Borders Code (SBC) provides Member States with the capability of temporarily reintroducing border control at the internal borders in the event of a serious threat to public policy or internal security... ...The reintroduction of border control is a prerogative of the Member States. The Commission may issue an opinion regarding the necessity of the measure and its proportionality but cannot veto a Member State’s decision to reintroduce border control" Yes...and that is precisely why VDL wants to take control of public health | |||
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"If somebody is anti vax & voted remain they must be hugely conflicted now watching what EU governments are doing. I'm double jabbed & will defo get my booster volountarily but making it compulsory is plain wrong & only going to incite civil unrest. Every European government currently in power is gonna be wiped out in the next set of elections I expect. But surely every country in the EU is still soviergn and can decide its own rules on health. There is more to it than that. The EU is trying to leverage Schengen to do a powergrab on public health. Competency on public health still rests with 'member states'. However, if any member state/region wants to close its borders it will clash with Brussels vis-a-vis Schengen...with Brussels claiming competency on borders rests at EU level. Thus Von Der Leyen is saying that Brussels should take control of public health vis-a-vis coronavirus. And you can be certain that that power will never be handed back This is how the EU works... secretively. The Schengen Borders Code (SBC) provides Member States with the capability of temporarily reintroducing border control at the internal borders in the event of a serious threat to public policy or internal security... ...The reintroduction of border control is a prerogative of the Member States. The Commission may issue an opinion regarding the necessity of the measure and its proportionality but cannot veto a Member State’s decision to reintroduce border control Yes...and that is precisely why VDL wants to take control of public health" Accusing the EU of a power grab to extend competencies is different to saying they have competencies. I read your post as saying the would prevent border closures as they had the full competency here. My bad. | |||
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"i'm sure you're right but....if you DON'T take your boosters in the future (everyone)...your passport will turn red" Are you a clairvoyant? xx | |||
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"i'm sure you're right but....if you DON'T take your boosters in the future (everyone)...your passport will turn red Are you a clairvoyant? xx" No need to be clairvoyant… already happening in Australia Canada Austria Italy to name a few | |||
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"i'm sure you're right but....if you DON'T take your boosters in the future (everyone)...your passport will turn red Are you a clairvoyant? xx No need to be clairvoyant… already happening in Australia Canada Austria Italy to name a few " Where is your source of information? xx | |||
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"i'm sure you're right but....if you DON'T take your boosters in the future (everyone)...your passport will turn red Are you a clairvoyant? xx No need to be clairvoyant… already happening in Australia Canada Austria Italy to name a few Where is your source of information? xx" https://twitter.com/statsjamie/status/1460274428030373900/video/1 Follow this link … hear it straight from the horses mouth yourself | |||
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"What happens in Australia has no bearing on what happens in the UK "Follow the above link Iv just posted and think about your comment again | |||
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"i'm sure you're right but....if you DON'T take your boosters in the future (everyone)...your passport will turn red Are you a clairvoyant? xx No need to be clairvoyant… already happening in Australia Canada Austria Italy to name a few Where is your source of information? xx https://twitter.com/statsjamie/status/1460274428030373900/video/1 Follow this link … hear it straight from the horses mouth yourself " From looking at the link, I can't see anything from the Govt. that says 'if you DON'T take your boosters in the future (everyone)...your passport will turn red' xx | |||
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"i'm sure you're right but....if you DON'T take your boosters in the future (everyone)...your passport will turn red Are you a clairvoyant? xx No need to be clairvoyant… already happening in Australia Canada Austria Italy to name a few Where is your source of information? xx https://twitter.com/statsjamie/status/1460274428030373900/video/1 Follow this link … hear it straight from the horses mouth yourself From looking at the link, I can't see anything from the Govt. that says 'if you DON'T take your boosters in the future (everyone)...your passport will turn red' xx" Ok so what do you hear then? You explain to me in laymen’s terms what he is saying ? | |||
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"Jeez I post a link with the prime minister saying that if you don’t take your 3rd shot your unvaccinated and some people still find a way to do some mental gymnastics and deny it lol … " But he doesn't say that someone would be unvaccinated, which is what you are saying xx | |||
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"Jeez I post a link with the prime minister saying that if you don’t take your 3rd shot your unvaccinated and some people still find a way to do some mental gymnastics and deny it lol … But he doesn't say that someone would be unvaccinated, which is what you are saying xx" What’s he saying then ? | |||
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"Jeez I post a link with the prime minister saying that if you don’t take your 3rd shot your unvaccinated and some people still find a way to do some mental gymnastics and deny it lol … " Seemed very clear to me what Boris Johnson was saying. That is the new buzz word 'fully vaccinated', meaning you'll have to keep on the 'vaccine treadmill' to make your life easier.  | |||
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"If somebody is anti vax & voted remain they must be hugely conflicted now watching what EU governments are doing. I'm double jabbed & will defo get my booster volountarily but making it compulsory is plain wrong & only going to incite civil unrest. Every European government currently in power is gonna be wiped out in the next set of elections I expect. But surely every country in the EU is still soviergn and can decide its own rules on health. There is more to it than that. The EU is trying to leverage Schengen to do a powergrab on public health. Competency on public health still rests with 'member states'. However, if any member state/region wants to close its borders it will clash with Brussels vis-a-vis Schengen...with Brussels claiming competency on borders rests at EU level. Thus Von Der Leyen is saying that Brussels should take control of public health vis-a-vis coronavirus. And you can be certain that that power will never be handed back This is how the EU works... secretively. The Schengen Borders Code (SBC) provides Member States with the capability of temporarily reintroducing border control at the internal borders in the event of a serious threat to public policy or internal security... ...The reintroduction of border control is a prerogative of the Member States. The Commission may issue an opinion regarding the necessity of the measure and its proportionality but cannot veto a Member State’s decision to reintroduce border control Yes...and that is precisely why VDL wants to take control of public health Accusing the EU of a power grab to extend competencies is different to saying they have competencies. I read your post as saying the would prevent border closures as they had the full competency here. My bad. " No problem...and that's the secretive and dishonest way the EU operates. Never let a crisis go to waste! | |||
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"If somebody is anti vax & voted remain they must be hugely conflicted now watching what EU governments are doing. I'm double jabbed & will defo get my booster volountarily but making it compulsory is plain wrong & only going to incite civil unrest. Every European government currently in power is gonna be wiped out in the next set of elections I expect. But surely every country in the EU is still soviergn and can decide its own rules on health. There is more to it than that. The EU is trying to leverage Schengen to do a powergrab on public health. Competency on public health still rests with 'member states'. However, if any member state/region wants to close its borders it will clash with Brussels vis-a-vis Schengen...with Brussels claiming competency on borders rests at EU level. Thus Von Der Leyen is saying that Brussels should take control of public health vis-a-vis coronavirus. And you can be certain that that power will never be handed back This is how the EU works... secretively. The Schengen Borders Code (SBC) provides Member States with the capability of temporarily reintroducing border control at the internal borders in the event of a serious threat to public policy or internal security... ...The reintroduction of border control is a prerogative of the Member States. The Commission may issue an opinion regarding the necessity of the measure and its proportionality but cannot veto a Member State’s decision to reintroduce border control Yes...and that is precisely why VDL wants to take control of public health Accusing the EU of a power grab to extend competencies is different to saying they have competencies. I read your post as saying the would prevent border closures as they had the full competency here. My bad. No problem...and that's the secretive and dishonest way the EU operates. Never let a crisis go to waste!" I'm not convinced this land grab is happening tho ... It's speculation.... How do they even get control ? | |||
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"Jeez I post a link with the prime minister saying that if you don’t take your 3rd shot your unvaccinated and some people still find a way to do some mental gymnastics and deny it lol … Seemed very clear to me what Boris Johnson was saying. That is the new buzz word 'fully vaccinated', meaning you'll have to keep on the 'vaccine treadmill' to make your life easier. "It was very clear … in fact it couldn’t be any clearer … | |||
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"His exact words were when talking about boosters “ it is clear we will have to adjust our concept of what constitutes a full vaccination” " Wrong..if your going to give 'exact' information, make sure you are correct. His words are (I have not include any blubbering that he has done when he speaks), 'boosters its very clear that getting 3 jabs getting your booster will become an important fact, and it will make life easier for you in all sorts of ways and we will have to adjust our concept of what constitutes a full vaccination to take account of that and I think that is increasingly obvious' xx | |||
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"His exact words were when talking about boosters “ it is clear we will have to adjust our concept of what constitutes a full vaccination” Wrong..if your going to give 'exact' information, make sure you are correct. His words are (I have not include any blubbering that he has done when he speaks), 'boosters its very clear that getting 3 jabs getting your booster will become an important fact, and it will make life easier for you in all sorts of ways and we will have to adjust our concept of what constitutes a full vaccination to take account of that and I think that is increasingly obvious' xx" Yes exactly … what’s your point lol! “It’s clear we will have to adjust our concept of what constitutes a full vaccination” What do you think that means then Sherlock? | |||
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"His exact words were when talking about boosters “ it is clear we will have to adjust our concept of what constitutes a full vaccination” Wrong..if your going to give 'exact' information, make sure you are correct. His words are (I have not include any blubbering that he has done when he speaks), 'boosters its very clear that getting 3 jabs getting your booster will become an important fact, and it will make life easier for you in all sorts of ways and we will have to adjust our concept of what constitutes a full vaccination to take account of that and I think that is increasingly obvious' xx Yes exactly … what’s your point lol! “It’s clear we will have to adjust our concept of what constitutes a full vaccination” What do you think that means then Sherlock? " erm, let me think xx | |||
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"His exact words were when talking about boosters “ it is clear we will have to adjust our concept of what constitutes a full vaccination” Wrong..if your going to give 'exact' information, make sure you are correct. His words are (I have not include any blubbering that he has done when he speaks), 'boosters its very clear that getting 3 jabs getting your booster will become an important fact, and it will make life easier for you in all sorts of ways and we will have to adjust our concept of what constitutes a full vaccination to take account of that and I think that is increasingly obvious' xx Yes exactly … what’s your point lol! “It’s clear we will have to adjust our concept of what constitutes a full vaccination” What do you think that means then Sherlock?
erm, let me think xx"Boris did not say, 'It's clear'. Listen to the video that you have posted the thread for xx | |||
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Winston | |||
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"I think my understanding of tyrany is very different to an awful lot of other people's understanding.
Winston"Tyranny: cruel, unreasonable, or arbitrary use of power or control. So removing personal choice and free will from an individual over what happens to their body very much fits the definition. | |||
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"Mandatory vaccines are tyranny and if you support this, you are a tyrant. (My opinion) Discuss! " Let me change a few words and see if you think the same thing Mandatory wearing of seatbelt’s are tyranny , and if you support this, you are a tyrant……. | |||
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"Mandatory vaccines are tyranny and if you support this, you are a tyrant. (My opinion) Discuss! Let me change a few words and see if you think the same thing Mandatory wearing of seatbelt’s are tyranny , and if you support this, you are a tyrant……. " ?? | |||
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"Mandatory vaccines are tyranny and if you support this, you are a tyrant. (My opinion) Discuss! Let me change a few words and see if you think the same thing Mandatory wearing of seatbelt’s are tyranny , and if you support this, you are a tyrant……. ?? " I was pointing out that the use of the word tyrant is being thrown around very liberally and to be honest if you have ever lived in a country where they don’t have freedoms (and remember countries are still giving you a choice… the problem is that some don’t like like the consequence of the choice!) to be honest using that word is pretty distasteful at best…. | |||
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"Mandatory vaccines are tyranny and if you support this, you are a tyrant. (My opinion) Discuss! Let me change a few words and see if you think the same thing Mandatory wearing of seatbelt’s are tyranny , and if you support this, you are a tyrant……. ?? I was pointing out that the use of the word tyrant is being thrown around very liberally and to be honest if you have ever lived in a country where they don’t have freedoms (and remember countries are still giving you a choice… the problem is that some don’t like like the consequence of the choice!) to be honest using that word is pretty distasteful at best…." So me calling it tyranny is distasteful … but actually making people take a medical procedure against there will isn’t distasteful in the slightest? | |||
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"His exact words were when talking about boosters “ it is clear we will have to adjust our concept of what constitutes a full vaccination” Wrong..if your going to give 'exact' information, make sure you are correct. His words are (I have not include any blubbering that he has done when he speaks), 'boosters its very clear that getting 3 jabs getting your booster will become an important fact, and it will make life easier for you in all sorts of ways and we will have to adjust our concept of what constitutes a full vaccination to take account of that and I think that is increasingly obvious' xx Yes exactly … what’s your point lol! “It’s clear we will have to adjust our concept of what constitutes a full vaccination” What do you think that means then Sherlock?
erm, let me think xx
Boris did not say, 'It's clear'. Listen to the video that you have posted the thread for xx"You’ve not answered my question … what do you think he means then? You seem to be side stepping the question at all costs | |||
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"Mandatory vaccines are tyranny and if you support this, you are a tyrant. (My opinion) Discuss! Let me change a few words and see if you think the same thing Mandatory wearing of seatbelt’s are tyranny , and if you support this, you are a tyrant……. " Forced medical procedure by your government vs wearing a seatbelt. Yeh that’s the same level isn’t it? | |||
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"Mandatory vaccines are tyranny and if you support this, you are a tyrant. (My opinion) Discuss! " And if you cross the road while looking at your phone and get hit by a bus it's your fault. | |||
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"Mandatory vaccines are tyranny and if you support this, you are a tyrant. (My opinion) Discuss! " What’s your thoughts on how to deal with the current and future crisis? I see a lot of people decrying Mask mandates, vaccine mandates and booster jabs but never put forward a counter argument! You say that you want people to discuss, but all you say is your opinion is X. Well my opinion is Y, discuss.... | |||
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"Mandatory vaccines are tyranny and if you support this, you are a tyrant. (My opinion) Discuss! Let me change a few words and see if you think the same thing Mandatory wearing of seatbelt’s are tyranny , and if you support this, you are a tyrant……. ?? I was pointing out that the use of the word tyrant is being thrown around very liberally and to be honest if you have ever lived in a country where they don’t have freedoms (and remember countries are still giving you a choice… the problem is that some don’t like like the consequence of the choice!) to be honest using that word is pretty distasteful at best…." And I think that's the nub of it. People acting like petulant, spoilt children who are suddenly being called to task and don't like it, then crying that curtailing their behaviours is tyrannical. I have visions of a red in the face teenager stamping his feet and crying "its not fairrrrrrr" 99.99% of them have no idea what living under a tyrannical regime is actually like. Winston | |||
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"Mandatory vaccines are tyranny and if you support this, you are a tyrant. (My opinion) Discuss! Let me change a few words and see if you think the same thing Mandatory wearing of seatbelt’s are tyranny , and if you support this, you are a tyrant……. ?? I was pointing out that the use of the word tyrant is being thrown around very liberally and to be honest if you have ever lived in a country where they don’t have freedoms (and remember countries are still giving you a choice… the problem is that some don’t like like the consequence of the choice!) to be honest using that word is pretty distasteful at best…. And I think that's the nub of it. People acting like petulant, spoilt children who are suddenly being called to task and don't like it, then crying that curtailing their behaviours is tyrannical. I have visions of a red in the face teenager stamping his feet and crying "its not fairrrrrrr" 99.99% of them have no idea what living under a tyrannical regime is actually like. Winston" In stand by my opinion. | |||
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"Mandatory vaccines are tyranny and if you support this, you are a tyrant. (My opinion) Discuss! Let me change a few words and see if you think the same thing Mandatory wearing of seatbelt’s are tyranny , and if you support this, you are a tyrant……. ?? I was pointing out that the use of the word tyrant is being thrown around very liberally and to be honest if you have ever lived in a country where they don’t have freedoms (and remember countries are still giving you a choice… the problem is that some don’t like like the consequence of the choice!) to be honest using that word is pretty distasteful at best…. And I think that's the nub of it. People acting like petulant, spoilt children who are suddenly being called to task and don't like it, then crying that curtailing their behaviours is tyrannical. I have visions of a red in the face teenager stamping his feet and crying "its not fairrrrrrr" 99.99% of them have no idea what living under a tyrannical regime is actually like. Winston In stand by my opinion. " Opinions are like bellybuttons. Everyone has one, they are mostly pointless. Winston. | |||
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"Mandatory vaccines are tyranny and if you support this, you are a tyrant. (My opinion) Discuss! What’s your thoughts on how to deal with the current and future crisis? I see a lot of people decrying Mask mandates, vaccine mandates and booster jabs but never put forward a counter argument! You say that you want people to discuss, but all you say is your opinion is X. Well my opinion is Y, discuss...." Good question and Iv been following many great theories on this … First of all anyone that wants or need the vaccine can have it for free forever. Then a health drive , challenge the country to lose weight and get healthy with subsidised gym memberships and paid time off work to take a walk or hit the gym. Then for the unvaxxed monoclonal antibodies if needed and ivermectin (large amount of members of US Congress used this method) worked really well early in the pandemic and has been championed by many medical scientists. No masks no lockdowns no Draconian rules … common sense and a one for all attitude. | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated." But the nhs is free. Made from people who all work for free and work on buildings that cost nothing to build, maintain and run. | |||
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"Mandatory vaccines are tyranny and if you support this, you are a tyrant. (My opinion) Discuss! What’s your thoughts on how to deal with the current and future crisis? I see a lot of people decrying Mask mandates, vaccine mandates and booster jabs but never put forward a counter argument! You say that you want people to discuss, but all you say is your opinion is X. Well my opinion is Y, discuss.... Good question and Iv been following many great theories on this … First of all anyone that wants or need the vaccine can have it for free forever. Then a health drive , challenge the country to lose weight and get healthy with subsidised gym memberships and paid time off work to take a walk or hit the gym. Then for the unvaxxed monoclonal antibodies if needed and ivermectin (large amount of members of US Congress used this method) worked really well early in the pandemic and has been championed by many medical scientists. No masks no lockdowns no Draconian rules … common sense and a one for all attitude. " But ivermectin has been proven not to work. Monoclonal antibodies cost 1000s for a full treatment and are only for the very very ill. Vaccination is much safer and cost effective. | |||
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"A health worker in Italy who didn't want to be vaccinated tried wearing a false arm for his appointment. It’s so tragic it’s funny! "I don't know why you're moaning...most of you lot use false cocks  | |||
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"Mandatory vaccines are tyranny and if you support this, you are a tyrant. (My opinion) Discuss! Let me change a few words and see if you think the same thing Mandatory wearing of seatbelt’s are tyranny , and if you support this, you are a tyrant……. Forced medical procedure by your government vs wearing a seatbelt. Yeh that’s the same level isn’t it? " Theyll be forcing kids into schools soon... Bloody tyrants | |||
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"Mandatory vaccines are tyranny and if you support this, you are a tyrant. (My opinion) Discuss! Personally don't see that trying to save people's lives is tyrannical but maybe our definition of tyranny differs. Saving lives by providing the opportunity for vaccination is good govt practice. Forcing people to have the vaccine either directly (through mandate) or indirectly by excluding people from society is very much within the definition of tyranny. People should have the right to determine what happens to their own body. It is the single most fundamental right we all have. That is not an anti-vax statement. That is a pro-choice statement. Problem with this is invariably people who believe in this kind of pro-choice also don't want to bear any consequences of their choice. And by the same token do you think its peoples right to drink and drive with impunity? Theres also a large crossover of people who are 'pro choice' when it comes to vaccinations but aren't as keen on it when it comes to womens agency over their own bodies. " A huge difference over someone having a choice on taking a vaccine that no one really knows the long term consequences of than some one having a legitimate choice on whether or not to drink drive, by that logic some one who killed another and claimed freedom of choice is in the same category as the drink driver and the person who refuses to take the vaccine.I have had my vaccines but still don't trust that they are as safe as is claimed as it is far too early for anyone to know the long term effects they could potentially have. | |||
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"Good job it's not an Ebola pandemic, you non-believing idiots would soon be crying out for a jab "For ebola of course... Because the risk benefit is much clearer. Different disease, different situation. | |||
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"Good job it's not an Ebola pandemic, you non-believing idiots would soon be crying out for a jab
For ebola of course... Because the risk benefit is much clearer. Different disease, different situation.
"Maybe, but you'd still get bell ends churning out their crap about being forced to wear masks, get injections, "ooh it's a conspiracy to control the masses" etc etc | |||
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"Good job it's not an Ebola pandemic, you non-believing idiots would soon be crying out for a jab
For ebola of course... Because the risk benefit is much clearer. Different disease, different situation.
Maybe, but you'd still get bell ends churning out their crap about being forced to wear masks, get injections, "ooh it's a conspiracy to control the masses" etc etc "I suppose you'd still get the... But I wanna go on holiday to central Africa and you're not going to stop me... | |||
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"Good job it's not an Ebola pandemic, you non-believing idiots would soon be crying out for a jab
For ebola of course... Because the risk benefit is much clearer. Different disease, different situation.
Maybe, but you'd still get bell ends churning out their crap about being forced to wear masks, get injections, "ooh it's a conspiracy to control the masses" etc etc
I suppose you'd still get the... But I wanna go on holiday to central Africa and you're not going to stop me... "Let them go, they wouldn't make it back...with any luck  | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. For the ones who don’t catch Covid or don’t need hospital treatment, much less the ventilators, can they have their money returned for the massive cost of vaccination of others? You’re happy, of course, that they will be exempt from increases in NI and taxes to pay for the millions and millions of tests, treatment of those suffering the Ill effects of the vaccine and the cost of vaccination itself? That ok? " Everyone will catch Covid at some point that is pretty well inevitable now, it’s just a matter of time. As for the cost of vaccination, testing etc, it is insignificant compared to the cost to the economy if Covid no one was vaccinated. | |||
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"Mandatory vaccines are tyranny and if you support this, you are a tyrant. (My opinion) Discuss! Maybe we should flee the tyranny and go in rubber boats to the EU ?" Except you can’t go anywhere in the EU without being vaccinated at the moment! | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. really? Where did you hear/read that?" Yeah i was thinking the same considering most of the vaccinated are actually the ones that have the covid and new variant | |||
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"I'd agree. But then as 90% of people on ventilators for Covid are unvaccinated, it seems entirely reasonable to make them pay for their treatment if they won't get vaccinated. really? Where did you hear/read that? Yeah i was thinking the same considering most of the vaccinated are actually the ones that have the covid and new variant "They are the ones getting tested
And getting the variant does not mean getting sick with it
Just my observation | |||
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"Mandatory vaccines are tyranny and if you support this, you are a tyrant. (My opinion) Discuss! Let me change a few words and see if you think the same thing Mandatory wearing of seatbelt’s are tyranny , and if you support this, you are a tyrant……. " The seatbelt analogy doesn’t work in this context. It is a good analogy when making a comparison to the vaccine and being a risk mitigation. However, being forced to temporarily apply an external factor to your body is not the same as being forced to have something permanently and irretrievably placed inside your body. Not commenting on pros and cons of vaccine but sticking to OP and I am very uncomfortable with the idea of mandating these vaccines either directly or indirectly through social exclusion. | |||
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I have a chance of dying from the flu technically. 14 dead in my age group. Its believed obesity affects 1 in 4 adults where im from. Thats just one factor.
Heart disease kills over SEVEN times as many people as covid every year in the world. What drastic measures are governments doing to force fruit and veg down peoples throats? Are they forcing exercise and gym memberships on everyone? Are they going to stop subsidizing the meat industry so that people arent able to pay 99p for a mcdonalds burger, when it should actually cost a lot more?
I get heart disease isnt something that isnt able to transmit like a virus such as covid. But seriously though, it kills more then 7 times the amount covid does in a year.
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