Join us FREE, we're FREE to use
Web's largest swingers site since 2006.
Already registered?
Login here
Join us FREE, we're FREE to use
Web's largest swingers site since 2006.
Already registered?
Login here
 | Back to forum list |
| Back to Virus |
| Jump to newest |  |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new" So you saying it's right | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Stil wrong A child is reponsibility of parent not goverment Also please explain how it works tdo they child yes or no" Your child isnt your, it is the Crowns just like you are. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"How low can this goverment go.... They are going to withdraw the right of parental consent How can a 12 year old make a decision. A parent should be making decision upto 16. There are no morals in this goverment This is like a communist state " source ? It looks like people are adding 2 and 2 atm... | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right" Many children are more open minded and informed compared to some adults. Many are perfectly able to choose what treatment or vaccine they have. It's been law for years because this has been found. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"How low can this goverment go.... They are going to withdraw the right of parental consent How can a 12 year old make a decision. A parent should be making decision upto 16. There are no morals in this goverment This is like a communist state source ? It looks like people are adding 2 and 2 atm..." The right way is to work with parents not bypass them I have had 2 jabs mychoice Im not anti vax. But on this a child future its not a political toy. I took a risk taking vaccination my choice. A child should not be put at that risk What a. Coplrrupt immoral country we have be come. Greedy is good sod the vulnerable | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right Many children are more open minded and informed compared to some adults. Many are perfectly able to choose what treatment or vaccine they have. It's been law for years because this has been found. " Again is it right a 12 year old can not make this decison | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"It is sad and shocking and morally very wrong. I do feel for how this country is becoming " Totally agree | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right Many children are more open minded and informed compared to some adults. Many are perfectly able to choose what treatment or vaccine they have. It's been law for years because this has been found. Again is it right a 12 year old can not make this decison" No it will never be right | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right Many children are more open minded and informed compared to some adults. Many are perfectly able to choose what treatment or vaccine they have. It's been law for years because this has been found. " It's better to work with parents then bypass them. Now I know why Dr's act they way they do.. Very very sad | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right Many children are more open minded and informed compared to some adults. Many are perfectly able to choose what treatment or vaccine they have. It's been law for years because this has been found. " Don't pass. The buck take responibity as a parent. The bond of a child and parent is greater than any man made forum goverment etc | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right" I'll say it's right 
Gillick competency is the standard for any medical decision where a child may consent.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/children/
If it's good enough for pretty much anything else and has been the law in England and Wales for over 30 years, then it's good enough for vaccinations. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Parents get asked if their child wants a flu jab spray So what act differently with covid What not work with parents. This is a goverment who can't be trusted and has the worst death rate in the world per capita" So a law that's been in place since 1985 governing this area is new with Covid?  | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right I'll say it's right
Gillick competency is the standard for any medical decision where a child may consent.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/children/
If it's good enough for pretty much anything else and has been the law in England and Wales for over 30 years, then it's good enough for vaccinations."So why do they ask parents permission for flu jab My child has underlying medical condition which he would need to refer to consultant but on school he would probably bow to peer pressure and say yesq | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right Many children are more open minded and informed compared to some adults. Many are perfectly able to choose what treatment or vaccine they have. It's been law for years because this has been found. Don't pass. The buck take responibity as a parent. The bond of a child and parent is greater than any man made forum goverment etc" And your child's rights? It's not about bypassing the parent. It's about recognising children have rights to make their own decisions about their own health. They could agree with the parent or disagree. As long as its their informed choice they can choose, as they have rights too. Imagine if you wanted them to be vaccinated and they didn't. Would you force them to have the jab! It works both ways. They have the right to choose | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right I'll say it's right
Gillick competency is the standard for any medical decision where a child may consent.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/children/
If it's good enough for pretty much anything else and has been the law in England and Wales for over 30 years, then it's good enough for vaccinations.
So why do they ask parents permission for flu jab
My child has underlying medical condition which he would need to refer to consultant but on school he would probably bow to peer pressure and say yesq"I suggest you look into Gillick competency if it concerns you. It has been the law in England and Wales for my lifetime. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"This is like a communist state " I’m not sure if it’s quite comparable to North Korea  | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"This is like a communist state I’m not sure if it’s quite comparable to North Korea "How communist, recognising that some adolescents can make their own decisions under some circumstances | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"This is like a communist state I’m not sure if it’s quite comparable to North Korea
How communist, recognising that some adolescents can make their own decisions under some circumstances "Some not all. Why not work with parents yes n Korea honest ignore familes this goverment pretends it cares which is more dangerous | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"This is like a communist state I’m not sure if it’s quite comparable to North Korea
How communist, recognising that some adolescents can make their own decisions under some circumstances
Some not all.
Why not work with parents yes n Korea honest ignore familes this goverment pretends it cares which is more dangerous "Look into Gillick competency rather than jumping to conclusions. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right I'll say it's right
Gillick competency is the standard for any medical decision where a child may consent.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/children/
If it's good enough for pretty much anything else and has been the law in England and Wales for over 30 years, then it's good enough for vaccinations.
So why do they ask parents permission for flu jab
My child has underlying medical condition which he would need to refer to consultant but on school he would probably bow to peer pressure and say yesq
I suggest you look into Gillick competency if it concerns you. It has been the law in England and Wales for my lifetime."I suggest it better to engage with parents use Gillick as last resort not first step Also why are even vaccinating children the risk is to big | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right I'll say it's right
Gillick competency is the standard for any medical decision where a child may consent.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/children/
If it's good enough for pretty much anything else and has been the law in England and Wales for over 30 years, then it's good enough for vaccinations.
So why do they ask parents permission for flu jab
My child has underlying medical condition which he would need to refer to consultant but on school he would probably bow to peer pressure and say yesq
I suggest you look into Gillick competency if it concerns you. It has been the law in England and Wales for my lifetime.
I suggest it better to engage with parents use Gillick as last resort not first step
Also why are even vaccinating children the risk is to big "If you believe so then communicate that to your child. If your child has the capacity to choose for themselves, I'm sure said child will weigh up your opinion. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"This is like a communist state I’m not sure if it’s quite comparable to North Korea
How communist, recognising that some adolescents can make their own decisions under some circumstances
Some not all.
Why not work with parents yes n Korea honest ignore familes this goverment pretends it cares which is more dangerous
Look into Gillick competency rather than jumping to conclusions."Not my fault goverment leaks things in advance mYbe if the are open honest and explain we not been defensive ew. Do you trust the goverment with anything. A child's life future is the most precious thing in society don't you agree | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right I'll say it's right
Gillick competency is the standard for any medical decision where a child may consent.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/children/
If it's good enough for pretty much anything else and has been the law in England and Wales for over 30 years, then it's good enough for vaccinations.
So why do they ask parents permission for flu jab
My child has underlying medical condition which he would need to refer to consultant but on school he would probably bow to peer pressure and say yesq
I suggest you look into Gillick competency if it concerns you. It has been the law in England and Wales for my lifetime.
I suggest it better to engage with parents use Gillick as last resort not first step
Also why are even vaccinating children the risk is to big
If you believe so then communicate that to your child.
If your child has the capacity to choose for themselves, I'm sure said child will weigh up your opinion."A 12 year old can't weigh this up. 12 year old some can't even read or write in this country. This a complex decision. If you think a 12 yeah old can make this decision then I worry about this society. 12 year old can't drink smoke joining army go put have a bet cos their not ready. This decision is more risky than the above. 12 year. Old is not old enough full sfop | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" What are the consent requirements for vaccinating eligible 12-15 year olds? • Prior to vaccination, appropriate consent must be obtained in all cases. For 12-15 year olds, this would be parental consent or the child’s own consent where they have been assessed as competent to consent to vaccination (this is known as Gillick competent). Where the child is not considered competent to give their own consent and does not object to vaccination, consent must be provided by those with parental responsibility (see chapter 2 of the Green Book). The consent briefing is currently being updated to reflect the new JCVI guidance I'm not sure where this panic is coming from. I've not seen any hint of what the new gudiance looks like... But suspect many are guessing and using the ambiguy to sell papers .." Panic is the goverment Goverment is untrustworthy Do you trust the goverment | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right I'll say it's right
Gillick competency is the standard for any medical decision where a child may consent.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/children/
If it's good enough for pretty much anything else and has been the law in England and Wales for over 30 years, then it's good enough for vaccinations.
So why do they ask parents permission for flu jab
My child has underlying medical condition which he would need to refer to consultant but on school he would probably bow to peer pressure and say yesq
I suggest you look into Gillick competency if it concerns you. It has been the law in England and Wales for my lifetime.
I suggest it better to engage with parents use Gillick as last resort not first step
Also why are even vaccinating children the risk is to big
If you believe so then communicate that to your child.
If your child has the capacity to choose for themselves, I'm sure said child will weigh up your opinion.
A 12 year old can't weigh this up.
12 year old some can't even read or write in this country. This a complex decision.
If you think a 12 yeah old can make this decision then I worry about this society.
12 year old can't drink smoke joining army go put have a bet cos their not ready. This decision is more risky than the above.
12 year. Old is not old enough full sfop
"I was better with maths and probability than my parents at 12. And better at science. Again, what's the source that the approach is changing ? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right I'll say it's right
Gillick competency is the standard for any medical decision where a child may consent.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/children/
If it's good enough for pretty much anything else and has been the law in England and Wales for over 30 years, then it's good enough for vaccinations.
So why do they ask parents permission for flu jab
My child has underlying medical condition which he would need to refer to consultant but on school he would probably bow to peer pressure and say yesq
I suggest you look into Gillick competency if it concerns you. It has been the law in England and Wales for my lifetime.
I suggest it better to engage with parents use Gillick as last resort not first step
Also why are even vaccinating children the risk is to big
If you believe so then communicate that to your child.
If your child has the capacity to choose for themselves, I'm sure said child will weigh up your opinion.
A 12 year old can't weigh this up.
12 year old some can't even read or write in this country. This a complex decision.
If you think a 12 yeah old can make this decision then I worry about this society.
12 year old can't drink smoke joining army go put have a bet cos their not ready. This decision is more risky than the above.
12 year. Old is not old enough full sfop
"I disagree, and thankfully so does over 35 years of law in this country | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"How low can this goverment go.... They are going to withdraw the right of parental consent How can a 12 year old make a decision. A parent should be making decision upto 16. There are no morals in this goverment This is like a communist state source ? It looks like people are adding 2 and 2 atm..." https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/08/25/nhs-draws-plans-vaccinate-12-year-olds/ | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right I'll say it's right
Gillick competency is the standard for any medical decision where a child may consent.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/children/
If it's good enough for pretty much anything else and has been the law in England and Wales for over 30 years, then it's good enough for vaccinations.
So why do they ask parents permission for flu jab
My child has underlying medical condition which he would need to refer to consultant but on school he would probably bow to peer pressure and say yesq
I suggest you look into Gillick competency if it concerns you. It has been the law in England and Wales for my lifetime.
I suggest it better to engage with parents use Gillick as last resort not first step
Also why are even vaccinating children the risk is to big
If you believe so then communicate that to your child.
If your child has the capacity to choose for themselves, I'm sure said child will weigh up your opinion.
A 12 year old can't weigh this up.
12 year old some can't even read or write in this country. This a complex decision.
If you think a 12 yeah old can make this decision then I worry about this society.
12 year old can't drink smoke joining army go put have a bet cos their not ready. This decision is more risky than the above.
12 year. Old is not old enough full sfop
I was better with maths and probability than my parents at 12. And better at science.
Again, what's the source that the approach is changing ? "You don't understand life at 12 Mst clever people have no common sense by the way Take it you haven't got kids | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right I'll say it's right
Gillick competency is the standard for any medical decision where a child may consent.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/children/
If it's good enough for pretty much anything else and has been the law in England and Wales for over 30 years, then it's good enough for vaccinations.
So why do they ask parents permission for flu jab
My child has underlying medical condition which he would need to refer to consultant but on school he would probably bow to peer pressure and say yesq
I suggest you look into Gillick competency if it concerns you. It has been the law in England and Wales for my lifetime.
I suggest it better to engage with parents use Gillick as last resort not first step
Also why are even vaccinating children the risk is to big
If you believe so then communicate that to your child.
If your child has the capacity to choose for themselves, I'm sure said child will weigh up your opinion.
A 12 year old can't weigh this up.
12 year old some can't even read or write in this country. This a complex decision.
If you think a 12 yeah old can make this decision then I worry about this society.
12 year old can't drink smoke joining army go put have a bet cos their not ready. This decision is more risky than the above.
12 year. Old is not old enough full sfop
I disagree, and thankfully so does over 35 years of law in this country "So explain why schools ask if they can have. Flu jab | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right I'll say it's right
Gillick competency is the standard for any medical decision where a child may consent.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/children/
If it's good enough for pretty much anything else and has been the law in England and Wales for over 30 years, then it's good enough for vaccinations.
So why do they ask parents permission for flu jab
My child has underlying medical condition which he would need to refer to consultant but on school he would probably bow to peer pressure and say yesq
I suggest you look into Gillick competency if it concerns you. It has been the law in England and Wales for my lifetime.
I suggest it better to engage with parents use Gillick as last resort not first step
Also why are even vaccinating children the risk is to big
If you believe so then communicate that to your child.
If your child has the capacity to choose for themselves, I'm sure said child will weigh up your opinion.
A 12 year old can't weigh this up.
12 year old some can't even read or write in this country. This a complex decision.
If you think a 12 yeah old can make this decision then I worry about this society.
12 year old can't drink smoke joining army go put have a bet cos their not ready. This decision is more risky than the above.
12 year. Old is not old enough full sfop
I disagree, and thankfully so does over 35 years of law in this country
So explain why schools ask if they can have. Flu jab
"Because you don't understand Gillick competency. If parents consent, good. If a child *judged capable of consenting* makes their own decision, then there's leeway for that decision to be respected. It's not boom, 12, adult. It's a gradual introduction of responsibility and capacity. (Actually, under some circumstances the government can temporarily remove parental rights to ensure medical care occurs, and way earlier than 12. Stuff like Jehovah's witness children and blood transfusions) It's not a Covid thing, it's not a conspiracy. It's just the way medicine works in England and Wales for adolescents. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Well obviously your not a parent. Children In general do not have issues with covid therefore the risk analysis is vaccination is more risk than dose e therefore I can't believe jvi will authorise Therefore the state wil ask a 12 year old if they want vaccination. Adults can say no" I actually partly agree with you, the jvib have done a half assed assessment afraid of the backlash, they've brought it in for "vulnerable" minors without issuing guidance on what they're classing as vulnerable therefore open to interpretation and all minors being able to actually receiving the vaccination, plus they've not actually published there risk reward analysis on vaccinating of children which we personally suspect is because it's mainly based on spreading less and not self protection. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"How low can this goverment go.... They are going to withdraw the right of parental consent How can a 12 year old make a decision. A parent should be making decision upto 16. There are no morals in this goverment This is like a communist state " Communist state? Ridiculous comment. Highly highly offensive | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"If you don’t involve your teenagers in these discussions about why they need any vaccine, medication or treatment, the pros and cons, then how can they develop and learn to make up their own minds. It’s not a magical button that is switched at 16. It’s something that has always been discussed in this house so he understands why he needs certain treatment, tests or injections. " Discussions yes of course totally agree But remove parental consent no | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"So why Do flu jabs schools ask parents But covid don't ask. Also relating to law always first steps is to try and get both parties to discuss and agree not heavy handed that's were doing. What a corruot immoral country Greed is good sod the vulnerable. More dearhs per capita on covid than any country in the world and you trust them. I know one thing I agree most children know goverment screwed up covid so. Maybe they are cleverq" Because look into how Gillick competency works. This isn't new. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"As a parent of two children I've had the discussion with both of them over whether THEY want to have it or not if they become eligible for it, and they will both make the choice themselves and not be forced or coerced into it just because all of the family are double vaccinated. The pros and cons have been explained and even losing my stepdad to the virus the decision will be theirs." Maybe 15 16 year old can make a decision Not a, 12 year old | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"If you don’t involve your teenagers in these discussions about why they need any vaccine, medication or treatment, the pros and cons, then how can they develop and learn to make up their own minds. It’s not a magical button that is switched at 16. It’s something that has always been discussed in this house so he understands why he needs certain treatment, tests or injections. " Same here, unfortunately not all parents think this should be the case. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"So why Do flu jabs schools ask parents But covid don't ask. Also relating to law always first steps is to try and get both parties to discuss and agree not heavy handed that's were doing. What a corruot immoral country Greed is good sod the vulnerable. More dearhs per capita on covid than any country in the world and you trust them. I know one thing I agree most children know goverment screwed up covid so. Maybe they are cleverq Because look into how Gillick competency works. This isn't new." So why enforce when flu jab parents asked please can you explain difference and I'm ovef 21 and can't work out why | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"If you don’t involve your teenagers in these discussions about why they need any vaccine, medication or treatment, the pros and cons, then how can they develop and learn to make up their own minds. It’s not a magical button that is switched at 16. It’s something that has always been discussed in this house so he understands why he needs certain treatment, tests or injections. Discussions yes of course totally agree But remove parental consent no" That option has been there a very long time, if it is deemed in the child’s best interest. I can’t find anything around that is suggesting parental consent is being removed completely. What is your source ? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"As a parent of two children I've had the discussion with both of them over whether THEY want to have it or not if they become eligible for it, and they will both make the choice themselves and not be forced or coerced into it just because all of the family are double vaccinated. The pros and cons have been explained and even losing my stepdad to the virus the decision will be theirs. Maybe 15 16 year old can make a decision Not a, 12 year old " Not all 12 year olds, no. Some simply don't have the parental support or maturity, some do though. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"How low can this goverment go.... They are going to withdraw the right of parental consent How can a 12 year old make a decision. A parent should be making decision upto 16. There are no morals in this goverment This is like a communist state " You clearly have no idea what life was like in communist states. Ridiculous comment. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"I completely disagree with it. One minute children are immune. Their natural immunity lasts longer than the jab but the establishment still wants to jab them. This isn't right." I agree It's, about trust and can anyone geniuely say Yiu woukd buy a 2nd hand car of Boris | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"So why Do flu jabs schools ask parents But covid don't ask. Also relating to law always first steps is to try and get both parties to discuss and agree not heavy handed that's were doing. What a corruot immoral country Greed is good sod the vulnerable. More dearhs per capita on covid than any country in the world and you trust them. I know one thing I agree most children know goverment screwed up covid so. Maybe they are cleverq Because look into how Gillick competency works. This isn't new. So why enforce when flu jab parents asked please can you explain difference and I'm ovef 21 and can't work out why" They don't. Parents are involved in most medical decisions. Where a child is deemed able to make their own decisions, judged on the individual child, a child's consent may override the parents. This began because a mother was so angry that her daughter was given birth control pills that she *sued the NHS*, taking it all the way to the House of Lords. In the 1980s. Gradually giving adolescents autonomy over their own lives - I'm not sure why this is bad. I thought it was preparing them for adulthood. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"(in relation to under 16's) "A child with sufficient maturity and understanding to comprehend the nature and implications of treatment, may be considered ‘Gillick competent’ and able to consent to treatment. When considering competence clinicians need to consider the child’s: Understanding of relevant information Ability to hold information in their mind long enough Ability to weigh up and use the information to decide Ability to communicate their decision" What constitutes a clinician? I would argue that people trained to administer vaccines but no prior medical training or qualification does not. So how would levels of a child's competence be gauged, and by whom? " Agree think there saying teachers Teachers are saying oh no we're not medically trained | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"So why Do flu jabs schools ask parents But covid don't ask. Also relating to law always first steps is to try and get both parties to discuss and agree not heavy handed that's were doing. What a corruot immoral country Greed is good sod the vulnerable. More dearhs per capita on covid than any country in the world and you trust them. I know one thing I agree most children know goverment screwed up covid so. Maybe they are cleverq Because look into how Gillick competency works. This isn't new. So why enforce when flu jab parents asked please can you explain difference and I'm ovef 21 and can't work out why They don't. Parents are involved in most medical decisions. Where a child is deemed able to make their own decisions, judged on the individual child, a child's consent may override the parents. This began because a mother was so angry that her daughter was given birth control pills that she *sued the NHS*, taking it all the way to the House of Lords. In the 1980s. Gradually giving adolescents autonomy over their own lives - I'm not sure why this is bad. I thought it was preparing them for adulthood." Tgere not adults By the way iam right flu jabs schools do you want your child to have it have tge letters, here | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"I completely disagree with it. One minute children are immune. Their natural immunity lasts longer than the jab but the establishment still wants to jab them. This isn't right." Good lad, blame “the establishment”. I bet you blame them for everything. Just possible that 2 years down the line, the scientists know more about Covid than they did in 2019? Kids are lowest risk. Higher risk groups have been addressed. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"So they can decide to have the vaccine in case they have barmy anti-vacc parents who wouldn't let them? Good. Should be the same with HPV vacc, sex education and access to gender identity support. "
If my parents had deemed that my painful life disrupting menstrual cycles as a teenager were my burden as a sinner, I'd hope a sensible doctor would help me overrule that kind of batshit. (I had friends with that kind of batshit parent, and it's relevant because reproductive health is the case that began Gillick competency) | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right I'll say it's right
Gillick competency is the standard for any medical decision where a child may consent.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/children/
If it's good enough for pretty much anything else and has been the law in England and Wales for over 30 years, then it's good enough for vaccinations.
So why do they ask parents permission for flu jab
My child has underlying medical condition which he would need to refer to consultant but on school he would probably bow to peer pressure and say yesq
I suggest you look into Gillick competency if it concerns you. It has been the law in England and Wales for my lifetime.
I suggest it better to engage with parents use Gillick as last resort not first step
Also why are even vaccinating children the risk is to big
If you believe so then communicate that to your child.
If your child has the capacity to choose for themselves, I'm sure said child will weigh up your opinion.
A 12 year old can't weigh this up.
12 year old some can't even read or write in this country. This a complex decision.
If you think a 12 yeah old can make this decision then I worry about this society.
12 year old can't drink smoke joining army go put have a bet cos their not ready. This decision is more risky than the above.
12 year. Old is not old enough full sfop
I disagree, and thankfully so does over 35 years of law in this country
So explain why schools ask if they can have. Flu jab
Because you don't understand Gillick competency. If parents consent, good. If a child *judged capable of consenting* makes their own decision, then there's leeway for that decision to be respected. It's not boom, 12, adult. It's a gradual introduction of responsibility and capacity.
(Actually, under some circumstances the government can temporarily remove parental rights to ensure medical care occurs, and way earlier than 12. Stuff like Jehovah's witness children and blood transfusions)
It's not a Covid thing, it's not a conspiracy. It's just the way medicine works in England and Wales for adolescents."Covid jab is a vaccine. The man is asking why this vaccine is compulsory rather than choice | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right I'll say it's right
Gillick competency is the standard for any medical decision where a child may consent.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/children/
If it's good enough for pretty much anything else and has been the law in England and Wales for over 30 years, then it's good enough for vaccinations.
So why do they ask parents permission for flu jab
My child has underlying medical condition which he would need to refer to consultant but on school he would probably bow to peer pressure and say yesq
I suggest you look into Gillick competency if it concerns you. It has been the law in England and Wales for my lifetime.
I suggest it better to engage with parents use Gillick as last resort not first step
Also why are even vaccinating children the risk is to big
If you believe so then communicate that to your child.
If your child has the capacity to choose for themselves, I'm sure said child will weigh up your opinion.
A 12 year old can't weigh this up.
12 year old some can't even read or write in this country. This a complex decision.
If you think a 12 yeah old can make this decision then I worry about this society.
12 year old can't drink smoke joining army go put have a bet cos their not ready. This decision is more risky than the above.
12 year. Old is not old enough full sfop
I disagree, and thankfully so does over 35 years of law in this country
So explain why schools ask if they can have. Flu jab
Because you don't understand Gillick competency. If parents consent, good. If a child *judged capable of consenting* makes their own decision, then there's leeway for that decision to be respected. It's not boom, 12, adult. It's a gradual introduction of responsibility and capacity.
(Actually, under some circumstances the government can temporarily remove parental rights to ensure medical care occurs, and way earlier than 12. Stuff like Jehovah's witness children and blood transfusions)
It's not a Covid thing, it's not a conspiracy. It's just the way medicine works in England and Wales for adolescents.
Covid jab is a vaccine. The man is asking why this vaccine is compulsory rather than choice"It is a choice. The choice may be given to a child deemed competent. As with any other medical decision in that child's life. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Does, a, 12 year old understand having the vaccine may kill them. If they don't have it they should be OK with covid. This not about child welfare its a about protecting others and tgsts wrong it should about risk to child. I woukd love 100 percent country vaccinated but not any costs specifically risking children No immoral " If a child does not understand the risks, they are not competent. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right I'll say it's right
Gillick competency is the standard for any medical decision where a child may consent.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/children/
If it's good enough for pretty much anything else and has been the law in England and Wales for over 30 years, then it's good enough for vaccinations.
So why do they ask parents permission for flu jab
My child has underlying medical condition which he would need to refer to consultant but on school he would probably bow to peer pressure and say yesq
I suggest you look into Gillick competency if it concerns you. It has been the law in England and Wales for my lifetime.
I suggest it better to engage with parents use Gillick as last resort not first step
Also why are even vaccinating children the risk is to big
If you believe so then communicate that to your child.
If your child has the capacity to choose for themselves, I'm sure said child will weigh up your opinion.
A 12 year old can't weigh this up.
12 year old some can't even read or write in this country. This a complex decision.
If you think a 12 yeah old can make this decision then I worry about this society.
12 year old can't drink smoke joining army go put have a bet cos their not ready. This decision is more risky than the above.
12 year. Old is not old enough full sfop
I disagree, and thankfully so does over 35 years of law in this country
So explain why schools ask if they can have. Flu jab
Because you don't understand Gillick competency. If parents consent, good. If a child *judged capable of consenting* makes their own decision, then there's leeway for that decision to be respected. It's not boom, 12, adult. It's a gradual introduction of responsibility and capacity.
(Actually, under some circumstances the government can temporarily remove parental rights to ensure medical care occurs, and way earlier than 12. Stuff like Jehovah's witness children and blood transfusions)
It's not a Covid thing, it's not a conspiracy. It's just the way medicine works in England and Wales for adolescents.
Covid jab is a vaccine. The man is asking why this vaccine is compulsory rather than choice
It is a choice. The choice may be given to a child deemed competent. As with any other medical decision in that child's life."So tell. Me who's going to tell me the child competent. Most 12year olds don't know who Winston Churchill is and have very low academic levels | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Covid jab is a vaccine. The man is asking why this vaccine is compulsory rather than choice It is a choice. The choice may be given to a child deemed competent. As with any other medical decision in that child's life. If the child is not competent?" If the child is not competent? The parents choice is now deemed irrelevant? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right I'll say it's right
Gillick competency is the standard for any medical decision where a child may consent.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/children/
If it's good enough for pretty much anything else and has been the law in England and Wales for over 30 years, then it's good enough for vaccinations.
So why do they ask parents permission for flu jab
My child has underlying medical condition which he would need to refer to consultant but on school he would probably bow to peer pressure and say yesq
I suggest you look into Gillick competency if it concerns you. It has been the law in England and Wales for my lifetime.
I suggest it better to engage with parents use Gillick as last resort not first step
Also why are even vaccinating children the risk is to big
If you believe so then communicate that to your child.
If your child has the capacity to choose for themselves, I'm sure said child will weigh up your opinion.
A 12 year old can't weigh this up.
12 year old some can't even read or write in this country. This a complex decision.
If you think a 12 yeah old can make this decision then I worry about this society.
12 year old can't drink smoke joining army go put have a bet cos their not ready. This decision is more risky than the above.
12 year. Old is not old enough full sfop
I disagree, and thankfully so does over 35 years of law in this country
So explain why schools ask if they can have. Flu jab
Because you don't understand Gillick competency. If parents consent, good. If a child *judged capable of consenting* makes their own decision, then there's leeway for that decision to be respected. It's not boom, 12, adult. It's a gradual introduction of responsibility and capacity.
(Actually, under some circumstances the government can temporarily remove parental rights to ensure medical care occurs, and way earlier than 12. Stuff like Jehovah's witness children and blood transfusions)
It's not a Covid thing, it's not a conspiracy. It's just the way medicine works in England and Wales for adolescents.
Covid jab is a vaccine. The man is asking why this vaccine is compulsory rather than choice
It is a choice. The choice may be given to a child deemed competent. As with any other medical decision in that child's life.
So tell. Me who's going to tell me the child competent.
Most 12year olds don't know who Winston Churchill is and have very low academic levels"Same with 18 year olds. You think there should be an iq test? Or general knowledge? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right I'll say it's right
Gillick competency is the standard for any medical decision where a child may consent.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/children/
If it's good enough for pretty much anything else and has been the law in England and Wales for over 30 years, then it's good enough for vaccinations.
So why do they ask parents permission for flu jab
My child has underlying medical condition which he would need to refer to consultant but on school he would probably bow to peer pressure and say yesq
I suggest you look into Gillick competency if it concerns you. It has been the law in England and Wales for my lifetime.
I suggest it better to engage with parents use Gillick as last resort not first step
Also why are even vaccinating children the risk is to big
If you believe so then communicate that to your child.
If your child has the capacity to choose for themselves, I'm sure said child will weigh up your opinion.
A 12 year old can't weigh this up.
12 year old some can't even read or write in this country. This a complex decision.
If you think a 12 yeah old can make this decision then I worry about this society.
12 year old can't drink smoke joining army go put have a bet cos their not ready. This decision is more risky than the above.
12 year. Old is not old enough full sfop
I disagree, and thankfully so does over 35 years of law in this country
So explain why schools ask if they can have. Flu jab
Because you don't understand Gillick competency. If parents consent, good. If a child *judged capable of consenting* makes their own decision, then there's leeway for that decision to be respected. It's not boom, 12, adult. It's a gradual introduction of responsibility and capacity.
(Actually, under some circumstances the government can temporarily remove parental rights to ensure medical care occurs, and way earlier than 12. Stuff like Jehovah's witness children and blood transfusions)
It's not a Covid thing, it's not a conspiracy. It's just the way medicine works in England and Wales for adolescents.
Covid jab is a vaccine. The man is asking why this vaccine is compulsory rather than choice
It is a choice. The choice may be given to a child deemed competent. As with any other medical decision in that child's life.
So tell. Me who's going to tell me the child competent.
Most 12year olds don't know who Winston Churchill is and have very low academic levels"So is Dr going make decision or teacher assistant in school.. Where's tge safeguards. Back to question do you trust goverment. None of us know how safe vaccine. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Does, a, 12 year old understand having the vaccine may kill them. If they don't have it they should be OK with covid. This not about child welfare its a about protecting others and tgsts wrong it should about risk to child. I woukd love 100 percent country vaccinated but not any costs specifically risking children No immoral " If you discuss it with them, they can learn both the pros and cons and then make the choice. As with any disease or medication we have no idea how our bodies will react to it until we have it. Some sail through, some have side effects. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right I'll say it's right
Gillick competency is the standard for any medical decision where a child may consent.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/children/
If it's good enough for pretty much anything else and has been the law in England and Wales for over 30 years, then it's good enough for vaccinations.
So why do they ask parents permission for flu jab
My child has underlying medical condition which he would need to refer to consultant but on school he would probably bow to peer pressure and say yesq
I suggest you look into Gillick competency if it concerns you. It has been the law in England and Wales for my lifetime.
I suggest it better to engage with parents use Gillick as last resort not first step
Also why are even vaccinating children the risk is to big
If you believe so then communicate that to your child.
If your child has the capacity to choose for themselves, I'm sure said child will weigh up your opinion.
A 12 year old can't weigh this up.
12 year old some can't even read or write in this country. This a complex decision.
If you think a 12 yeah old can make this decision then I worry about this society.
12 year old can't drink smoke joining army go put have a bet cos their not ready. This decision is more risky than the above.
12 year. Old is not old enough full sfop
I disagree, and thankfully so does over 35 years of law in this country
So explain why schools ask if they can have. Flu jab
Because you don't understand Gillick competency. If parents consent, good. If a child *judged capable of consenting* makes their own decision, then there's leeway for that decision to be respected. It's not boom, 12, adult. It's a gradual introduction of responsibility and capacity.
(Actually, under some circumstances the government can temporarily remove parental rights to ensure medical care occurs, and way earlier than 12. Stuff like Jehovah's witness children and blood transfusions)
It's not a Covid thing, it's not a conspiracy. It's just the way medicine works in England and Wales for adolescents.
Covid jab is a vaccine. The man is asking why this vaccine is compulsory rather than choice
It is a choice. The choice may be given to a child deemed competent. As with any other medical decision in that child's life.
So tell. Me who's going to tell me the child competent.
Most 12year olds don't know who Winston Churchill is and have very low academic levels
Same with 18 year olds.
You think there should be an iq test? Or general knowledge? "I think kidz should not be having it as there's not medical for them to be vaccinated | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Covid jab is a vaccine. The man is asking why this vaccine is compulsory rather than choice It is a choice. The choice may be given to a child deemed competent. As with any other medical decision in that child's life. If the child is not competent? If the child is not competent? The parents choice is now deemed irrelevant?" If a child is judged able to make their own decisions then it may override the parents' decision. If a child is not competent then it will not. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Does, a, 12 year old understand having the vaccine may kill them. If they don't have it they should be OK with covid. This not about child welfare its a about protecting others and tgsts wrong it should about risk to child. I woukd love 100 percent country vaccinated but not any costs specifically risking children No immoral If you discuss it with them, they can learn both the pros and cons and then make the choice. As with any disease or medication we have no idea how our bodies will react to it until we have it. Some sail through, some have side effects. " If a child goes to the cinema they can't see over 12 film if there a 12 as not mature enough but your happy to make a potential life changing decision. Parents should take responsibility not pass the buck | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right I'll say it's right
Gillick competency is the standard for any medical decision where a child may consent.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/children/
If it's good enough for pretty much anything else and has been the law in England and Wales for over 30 years, then it's good enough for vaccinations.
So why do they ask parents permission for flu jab
My child has underlying medical condition which he would need to refer to consultant but on school he would probably bow to peer pressure and say yesq
I suggest you look into Gillick competency if it concerns you. It has been the law in England and Wales for my lifetime.
I suggest it better to engage with parents use Gillick as last resort not first step
Also why are even vaccinating children the risk is to big
If you believe so then communicate that to your child.
If your child has the capacity to choose for themselves, I'm sure said child will weigh up your opinion.
A 12 year old can't weigh this up.
12 year old some can't even read or write in this country. This a complex decision.
If you think a 12 yeah old can make this decision then I worry about this society.
12 year old can't drink smoke joining army go put have a bet cos their not ready. This decision is more risky than the above.
12 year. Old is not old enough full sfop
I disagree, and thankfully so does over 35 years of law in this country
So explain why schools ask if they can have. Flu jab
Because you don't understand Gillick competency. If parents consent, good. If a child *judged capable of consenting* makes their own decision, then there's leeway for that decision to be respected. It's not boom, 12, adult. It's a gradual introduction of responsibility and capacity.
(Actually, under some circumstances the government can temporarily remove parental rights to ensure medical care occurs, and way earlier than 12. Stuff like Jehovah's witness children and blood transfusions)
It's not a Covid thing, it's not a conspiracy. It's just the way medicine works in England and Wales for adolescents.
Covid jab is a vaccine. The man is asking why this vaccine is compulsory rather than choice
It is a choice. The choice may be given to a child deemed competent. As with any other medical decision in that child's life.
So tell. Me who's going to tell me the child competent.
-------
Most 12year olds don't know who Winston Churchill is and have very low academic levels"Many adults also don't know who Winston Churchill is and have very low academic levels. I'm not sure how that effects their ability to decide whether they have a vaccine or not. Was your knowledge of Winston Churchill key in your decision to take the vaccine or not? Cal | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new" | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right I'll say it's right
Gillick competency is the standard for any medical decision where a child may consent.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/children/
If it's good enough for pretty much anything else and has been the law in England and Wales for over 30 years, then it's good enough for vaccinations.
So why do they ask parents permission for flu jab
My child has underlying medical condition which he would need to refer to consultant but on school he would probably bow to peer pressure and say yesq
I suggest you look into Gillick competency if it concerns you. It has been the law in England and Wales for my lifetime.
I suggest it better to engage with parents use Gillick as last resort not first step
Also why are even vaccinating children the risk is to big
If you believe so then communicate that to your child.
If your child has the capacity to choose for themselves, I'm sure said child will weigh up your opinion.
A 12 year old can't weigh this up.
12 year old some can't even read or write in this country. This a complex decision.
If you think a 12 yeah old can make this decision then I worry about this society.
12 year old can't drink smoke joining army go put have a bet cos their not ready. This decision is more risky than the above.
12 year. Old is not old enough full sfop
I disagree, and thankfully so does over 35 years of law in this country
So explain why schools ask if they can have. Flu jab
Because you don't understand Gillick competency. If parents consent, good. If a child *judged capable of consenting* makes their own decision, then there's leeway for that decision to be respected. It's not boom, 12, adult. It's a gradual introduction of responsibility and capacity.
(Actually, under some circumstances the government can temporarily remove parental rights to ensure medical care occurs, and way earlier than 12. Stuff like Jehovah's witness children and blood transfusions)
It's not a Covid thing, it's not a conspiracy. It's just the way medicine works in England and Wales for adolescents.
Covid jab is a vaccine. The man is asking why this vaccine is compulsory rather than choice
It is a choice. The choice may be given to a child deemed competent. As with any other medical decision in that child's life.
So tell. Me who's going to tell me the child competent.
-------
Most 12year olds don't know who Winston Churchill is and have very low academic levels
Many adults also don't know who Winston Churchill is and have very low academic levels. I'm not sure how that effects their ability to decide whether they have a vaccine or not. Was your knowledge of Winston Churchill key in your decision to take the vaccine or not?
Cal"Pathetic | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Does, a, 12 year old understand having the vaccine may kill them. If they don't have it they should be OK with covid. This not about child welfare its a about protecting others and tgsts wrong it should about risk to child. I woukd love 100 percent country vaccinated but not any costs specifically risking children No immoral If you discuss it with them, they can learn both the pros and cons and then make the choice. As with any disease or medication we have no idea how our bodies will react to it until we have it. Some sail through, some have side effects. If a child goes to the cinema they can't see over 12 film if there a 12 as not mature enough but your happy to make a potential life changing decision. Parents should take responsibility not pass the buck" Parents are taking responsibility by discussing it with them, it’s not passing the buck. Just like the HPV vaccine I discussed it with my son, he read up about it and then made his own choice to have it. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Covid jab is a vaccine. The man is asking why this vaccine is compulsory rather than choice It is a choice. The choice may be given to a child deemed competent. As with any other medical decision in that child's life. If the child is not competent? If the child is not competent? The parents choice is now deemed irrelevant? If a child is judged able to make their own decisions then it may override the parents' decision. If a child is not competent then it will not." Maybe I wasn't as clear as I should have been as I don't get your answer So a child is not competent to make a decision about a vaccine, the parents say they don't want the vaccine, they are deemed irrelevant and the child is given the vaccine? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Parents are taking responsibility by discussing it with them, it’s not passing the buck. Just like the HPV vaccine I discussed it with my son, he read up about it and then made his own choice to have it. " If he had said he didn't want it would that have been OK? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Parents are taking responsibility by discussing it with them, it’s not passing the buck. Just like the HPV vaccine I discussed it with my son, he read up about it and then made his own choice to have it. If he had said he didn't want it would that have been OK? " Yes it would have been | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Can someone explain the benefits to the child's to having vaccine. As we have all been told it was about balancing risk. Until recently it was always stated children at no significant risk. Can some please explain why this has changed. My view politics not done in child's best interest. By tge way will we be lowering voting age to 12 from September " Why do you think there is no benefit to the vaccine when kids seem to be spreading it when in school then passing it onto family when home? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Parents are taking responsibility by discussing it with them, it’s not passing the buck. Just like the HPV vaccine I discussed it with my son, he read up about it and then made his own choice to have it. If he had said he didn't want it would that have been OK? Yes it would have been " If you and he were then told it was compulsory would that be OK? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Parents are taking responsibility by discussing it with them, it’s not passing the buck. Just like the HPV vaccine I discussed it with my son, he read up about it and then made his own choice to have it. If he had said he didn't want it would that have been OK? Yes it would have been If you and he were then told it was compulsory would that be OK?" No vaccine is compulsory in this country, so not something we have ever thought about or discussed. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Can someone explain the benefits to the child's to having vaccine. As we have all been told it was about balancing risk. Until recently it was always stated children at no significant risk. Can some please explain why this has changed. My view politics not done in child's best interest. By tge way will we be lowering voting age to 12 from September Why do you think there is no benefit to the vaccine when kids seem to be spreading it when in school then passing it onto family when home?" I raised this, last September and was told it was not in child's best interest. With goverment and council Vaccination is only done relating to individual rial not to help society | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Can someone explain the benefits to the child's to having vaccine. As we have all been told it was about balancing risk. Until recently it was always stated children at no significant risk. Can some please explain why this has changed. My view politics not done in child's best interest. By tge way will we be lowering voting age to 12 from September Why do you think there is no benefit to the vaccine when kids seem to be spreading it when in school then passing it onto family when home?" So if you bothered about this did you take your child out school and home school to reduce risk | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Parents are taking responsibility by discussing it with them, it’s not passing the buck. Just like the HPV vaccine I discussed it with my son, he read up about it and then made his own choice to have it. If he had said he didn't want it would that have been OK? Yes it would have been If you and he were then told it was compulsory would that be OK? No vaccine is compulsory in this country, so not something we have ever thought about or discussed. " So if it was, as in they deemed they would use the law mentioned previously, would you be happy? ( not a trick question, just wanted peoples thoughts ) | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Can someone explain the benefits to the child's to having vaccine. As we have all been told it was about balancing risk. Until recently it was always stated children at no significant risk. Can some please explain why this has changed. My view politics not done in child's best interest. By tge way will we be lowering voting age to 12 from September Why do you think there is no benefit to the vaccine when kids seem to be spreading it when in school then passing it onto family when home? So if you bothered about this did you take your child out school and home school to reduce risk " My children are 38 and 35 | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Parents are taking responsibility by discussing it with them, it’s not passing the buck. Just like the HPV vaccine I discussed it with my son, he read up about it and then made his own choice to have it. If he had said he didn't want it would that have been OK? Yes it would have been If you and he were then told it was compulsory would that be OK? No vaccine is compulsory in this country, so not something we have ever thought about or discussed. So if it was, as in they deemed they would use the law mentioned previously, would you be happy? ( not a trick question, just wanted peoples thoughts )" Yes using the law mentioned before, I would be happy with his choice after reading about the pros and cons. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"I have absolutely no doubt that parents will discuss the situation with their kids and many will "Tell their kids what to do". There will also be lessons in school devoted to discussing the Pros & Cons, these WILL be student lead discussion and staff have already been told that they must not "push" a particular viewpoint. Cal" School should not be giving lessons they are medically trained Kids go to school to be educated Dr's for medical assessments Teachers are not medically trained and should to touch this subjext | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Can someone explain the benefits to the child's to having vaccine. As we have all been told it was about balancing risk. Until recently it was always stated children at no significant risk. Can some please explain why this has changed. My view politics not done in child's best interest. By tge way will we be lowering voting age to 12 from September Why do you think there is no benefit to the vaccine when kids seem to be spreading it when in school then passing it onto family when home? So if you bothered about this did you take your child out school and home school to reduce risk My children are 38 and 35" Most sensible comment today in forum. Well done made me laugh Would you buy a second hand car off Boris? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
 | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Parents are taking responsibility by discussing it with them, it’s not passing the buck. Just like the HPV vaccine I discussed it with my son, he read up about it and then made his own choice to have it. If he had said he didn't want it would that have been OK? Yes it would have been If you and he were then told it was compulsory would that be OK? No vaccine is compulsory in this country, so not something we have ever thought about or discussed. So if it was, as in they deemed they would use the law mentioned previously, would you be happy? ( not a trick question, just wanted peoples thoughts ) Yes using the law mentioned before, I would be happy with his choice after reading about the pros and cons. " Ah crossed wires, I don't think I am explaining what I am asking very well, no matter | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"In law for a crime the age of when a child can held responsible for their action is 10yr old. Am guessing could be using something similar in law for this." Why can't they vote | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"In law for a crime the age of when a child can held responsible for their action is 10yr old. Am guessing could be using something similar in law for this." I was just going to say the same thing | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"I have absolutely no doubt that parents will discuss the situation with their kids and many will "Tell their kids what to do". There will also be lessons in school devoted to discussing the Pros & Cons, these WILL be student lead discussion and staff have already been told that they must not "push" a particular viewpoint. Cal School should not be giving lessons they are medically trained Kids go to school to be educated Dr's for medical assessments Teachers are not medically trained and should to touch this subjext" It is no different than student lead discussions in various life subjects. It’s good for them to talk things through to see & discuss both sides. It is education as they learn debating skills, as well as learning how to accept different points of view. In our school it isn’t the teachers leading the topic, they are there as mediators and a specialist is bought in for the topic under discussion | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Can someone explain the benefits to the child's to having vaccine. As we have all been told it was about balancing risk. Until recently it was always stated children at no significant risk. Can some please explain why this has changed. My view politics not done in child's best interest. By tge way will we be lowering voting age to 12 from September Why do you think there is no benefit to the vaccine when kids seem to be spreading it when in school then passing it onto family when home? So if you bothered about this did you take your child out school and home school to reduce risk My children are 38 and 35 Most sensible comment today in forum. Well done made me laugh Would you buy a second hand car off Boris? " No But if my children were younger and needed a vaccine I would do research first, then talk to my child before deciding whether I think it is a good idea or not. If they thought it wasn't a good idea and I did or vice versa...if they were switched on enough to decide what to do then I would have to accept their decision | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"I have absolutely no doubt that parents will discuss the situation with their kids and many will "Tell their kids what to do". There will also be lessons in school devoted to discussing the Pros & Cons, these WILL be student lead discussion and staff have already been told that they must not "push" a particular viewpoint. Cal School should not be giving lessons they are medically trained Kids go to school to be educated Dr's for medical assessments Teachers are not medically trained and should to touch this subjext It is no different than student lead discussions in various life subjects. It’s good for them to talk things through to see & discuss both sides. It is education as they learn debating skills, as well as learning how to accept different points of view. In our school it isn’t the teachers leading the topic, they are there as mediators and a specialist is bought in for the topic under discussion " So you agree 12 year olds should get the vote | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Can someone explain the benefits to the child's to having vaccine. As we have all been told it was about balancing risk. Until recently it was always stated children at no significant risk. Can some please explain why this has changed. My view politics not done in child's best interest. By tge way will we be lowering voting age to 12 from September Why do you think there is no benefit to the vaccine when kids seem to be spreading it when in school then passing it onto family when home? So if you bothered about this did you take your child out school and home school to reduce risk My children are 38 and 35 Most sensible comment today in forum. Well done made me laugh Would you buy a second hand car off Boris? No But if my children were younger and needed a vaccine I would do research first, then talk to my child before deciding whether I think it is a good idea or not. If they thought it wasn't a good idea and I did or vice versa...if they were switched on enough to decide what to do then I would have to accept their decision" Would you buy a second hand car of boris | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"I have absolutely no doubt that parents will discuss the situation with their kids and many will "Tell their kids what to do". There will also be lessons in school devoted to discussing the Pros & Cons, these WILL be student lead discussion and staff have already been told that they must not "push" a particular viewpoint. Cal School should not be giving lessons they are medically trained Kids go to school to be educated Dr's for medical assessments Teachers are not medically trained and should to touch this subjext It is no different than student lead discussions in various life subjects. It’s good for them to talk things through to see & discuss both sides. It is education as they learn debating skills, as well as learning how to accept different points of view. In our school it isn’t the teachers leading the topic, they are there as mediators and a specialist is bought in for the topic under discussion So you agree 12 year olds should get the vote " Where did I say they get the vote 
To answer your question, as part of learning our school joins in with the elections here & state side. Research each party, have group discussions and then they have to cast a vote on Election Day to see who they decided to elect. Again all part of life skills and learning. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"A 12 year old can't weigh this up. 12 year old some can't even read or write in this country. This a complex decision. If you think a 12 yeah old can make this decision then I worry about this society. 12 year old can't drink smoke joining army go put have a bet cos their not ready. This decision is more risky than the above. 12 year. Old is not old enough full sfop " I have kids and, for completely reasons completely unrelated to Covid, have both been ruled to be “Gillick competent”. This competency isn’t assumed, but assessed by professional people expert in making such judgments. In the case of my children, they were 10 and 12. That they were judged to be competent allowed their voices to be heard and given the consideration they deserved. It changed their lives. Many 12 year olds would be competent, while many adults wouldn’t! I would suggest that you take time to look into “Gillick competency” and understand it before pronouncing on it. Legal judgements are based on facts, not opinions. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Can someone explain the benefits to the child's to having vaccine. As we have all been told it was about balancing risk. Until recently it was always stated children at no significant risk. Can some please explain why this has changed. My view politics not done in child's best interest. By tge way will we be lowering voting age to 12 from September Why do you think there is no benefit to the vaccine when kids seem to be spreading it when in school then passing it onto family when home? So if you bothered about this did you take your child out school and home school to reduce risk My children are 38 and 35 Most sensible comment today in forum. Well done made me laugh Would you buy a second hand car off Boris? No But if my children were younger and needed a vaccine I would do research first, then talk to my child before deciding whether I think it is a good idea or not. If they thought it wasn't a good idea and I did or vice versa...if they were switched on enough to decide what to do then I would have to accept their decision Would you buy a second hand car of boris" I answered you in my post | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right I'll say it's right
Gillick competency is the standard for any medical decision where a child may consent.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/children/
If it's good enough for pretty much anything else and has been the law in England and Wales for over 30 years, then it's good enough for vaccinations.
So why do they ask parents permission for flu jab
My child has underlying medical condition which he would need to refer to consultant but on school he would probably bow to peer pressure and say yesq
I suggest you look into Gillick competency if it concerns you. It has been the law in England and Wales for my lifetime.
I suggest it better to engage with parents use Gillick as last resort not first step
Also why are even vaccinating children the risk is to big
If you believe so then communicate that to your child.
If your child has the capacity to choose for themselves, I'm sure said child will weigh up your opinion.
A 12 year old can't weigh this up.
12 year old some can't even read or write in this country. This a complex decision.
If you think a 12 yeah old can make this decision then I worry about this society.
12 year old can't drink smoke joining army go put have a bet cos their not ready. This decision is more risky than the above.
12 year. Old is not old enough full sfop
I disagree, and thankfully so does over 35 years of law in this country
So explain why schools ask if they can have. Flu jab
Because you don't understand Gillick competency. If parents consent, good. If a child *judged capable of consenting* makes their own decision, then there's leeway for that decision to be respected. It's not boom, 12, adult. It's a gradual introduction of responsibility and capacity.
(Actually, under some circumstances the government can temporarily remove parental rights to ensure medical care occurs, and way earlier than 12. Stuff like Jehovah's witness children and blood transfusions)
It's not a Covid thing, it's not a conspiracy. It's just the way medicine works in England and Wales for adolescents.
Covid jab is a vaccine. The man is asking why this vaccine is compulsory rather than choice"OP, nobody is making this vaccine compulsory. The situation is the same as for every other medical treatment across this age group, including the flu jabs. In the vast majority of cases the decision about treatment or not is made by the parent - hence why the letter about the flu jab for parent to give consent. However if the child away from the influence of the parent disagrees with the parental choice, and the child is assessed as being intelligent enough to understand the choice and the consequences of the decision, then the wishes of the child can be obeyed rather than those of the parent. In the case of the covid jab, vaccination is allowed if both parent and child say yes, and not allowed if both say no. However if the child wishes to be vaccinated it can be done if the child is found capable of making the decision in an informed way. Likewise, the parent cannot force treatment onto the child, if the child can show that they are competent to make that decision. The only time that the state gets involved in the decision is if neither parent nor child is deemed competent to understand and make an informed choice. This happens very very infrequently, and would normally require a court case to decide what action should be taken. In summary: the parent is the first call for consent, the child can override the parent only if they can demonstrate sufficient understanding, the state can only override parent and child by a long and expensive court procedure. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Well obviously your not a parent. Children In general do not have issues with covid therefore the risk analysis is vaccination is more risk than dose e therefore I can't believe jvi will authorise Therefore the state wil ask a 12 year old if they want vaccination. Adults can say no" tell that to my 15 year old daughter that had it bad. Is still suffering now 6 weeks later. She will be having the vaccine as soon as she can | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right I'll say it's right
Gillick competency is the standard for any medical decision where a child may consent.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/children/
If it's good enough for pretty much anything else and has been the law in England and Wales for over 30 years, then it's good enough for vaccinations.
So why do they ask parents permission for flu jab
My child has underlying medical condition which he would need to refer to consultant but on school he would probably bow to peer pressure and say yesq
I suggest you look into Gillick competency if it concerns you. It has been the law in England and Wales for my lifetime.
I suggest it better to engage with parents use Gillick as last resort not first step
Also why are even vaccinating children the risk is to big
If you believe so then communicate that to your child.
If your child has the capacity to choose for themselves, I'm sure said child will weigh up your opinion.
A 12 year old can't weigh this up.
12 year old some can't even read or write in this country. This a complex decision.
If you think a 12 yeah old can make this decision then I worry about this society.
12 year old can't drink smoke joining army go put have a bet cos their not ready. This decision is more risky than the above.
12 year. Old is not old enough full sfop
I disagree, and thankfully so does over 35 years of law in this country
So explain why schools ask if they can have. Flu jab
Because you don't understand Gillick competency. If parents consent, good. If a child *judged capable of consenting* makes their own decision, then there's leeway for that decision to be respected. It's not boom, 12, adult. It's a gradual introduction of responsibility and capacity.
(Actually, under some circumstances the government can temporarily remove parental rights to ensure medical care occurs, and way earlier than 12. Stuff like Jehovah's witness children and blood transfusions)
It's not a Covid thing, it's not a conspiracy. It's just the way medicine works in England and Wales for adolescents.
Covid jab is a vaccine. The man is asking why this vaccine is compulsory rather than choice
OP, nobody is making this vaccine compulsory. The situation is the same as for every other medical treatment across this age group, including the flu jabs. In the vast majority of cases the decision about treatment or not is made by the parent - hence why the letter about the flu jab for parent to give consent.
However if the child away from the influence of the parent disagrees with the parental choice, and the child is assessed as being intelligent enough to understand the choice and the consequences of the decision, then the wishes of the child can be obeyed rather than those of the parent.
In the case of the covid jab, vaccination is allowed if both parent and child say yes, and not allowed if both say no. However if the child wishes to be vaccinated it can be done if the child is found capable of making the decision in an informed way. Likewise, the parent cannot force treatment onto the child, if the child can show that they are competent to make that decision.
The only time that the state gets involved in the decision is if neither parent nor child is deemed competent to understand and make an informed choice. This happens very very infrequently, and would normally require a court case to decide what action should be taken.
In summary: the parent is the first call for consent, the child can override the parent only if they can demonstrate sufficient understanding, the state can only override parent and child by a long and expensive court procedure."Yeah that was my fault, I should have said the decision taken out of the parents hands rather than compulsory | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right I'll say it's right
Gillick competency is the standard for any medical decision where a child may consent.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/children/
If it's good enough for pretty much anything else and has been the law in England and Wales for over 30 years, then it's good enough for vaccinations.
So why do they ask parents permission for flu jab
My child has underlying medical condition which he would need to refer to consultant but on school he would probably bow to peer pressure and say yesq
I suggest you look into Gillick competency if it concerns you. It has been the law in England and Wales for my lifetime.
I suggest it better to engage with parents use Gillick as last resort not first step
Also why are even vaccinating children the risk is to big
If you believe so then communicate that to your child.
If your child has the capacity to choose for themselves, I'm sure said child will weigh up your opinion.
A 12 year old can't weigh this up.
12 year old some can't even read or write in this country. This a complex decision.
If you think a 12 yeah old can make this decision then I worry about this society.
12 year old can't drink smoke joining army go put have a bet cos their not ready. This decision is more risky than the above.
12 year. Old is not old enough full sfop
I disagree, and thankfully so does over 35 years of law in this country
So explain why schools ask if they can have. Flu jab
Because you don't understand Gillick competency. If parents consent, good. If a child *judged capable of consenting* makes their own decision, then there's leeway for that decision to be respected. It's not boom, 12, adult. It's a gradual introduction of responsibility and capacity.
(Actually, under some circumstances the government can temporarily remove parental rights to ensure medical care occurs, and way earlier than 12. Stuff like Jehovah's witness children and blood transfusions)
It's not a Covid thing, it's not a conspiracy. It's just the way medicine works in England and Wales for adolescents.
Covid jab is a vaccine. The man is asking why this vaccine is compulsory rather than choice
OP, nobody is making this vaccine compulsory. The situation is the same as for every other medical treatment across this age group, including the flu jabs. In the vast majority of cases the decision about treatment or not is made by the parent - hence why the letter about the flu jab for parent to give consent.
However if the child away from the influence of the parent disagrees with the parental choice, and the child is assessed as being intelligent enough to understand the choice and the consequences of the decision, then the wishes of the child can be obeyed rather than those of the parent.
In the case of the covid jab, vaccination is allowed if both parent and child say yes, and not allowed if both say no. However if the child wishes to be vaccinated it can be done if the child is found capable of making the decision in an informed way. Likewise, the parent cannot force treatment onto the child, if the child can show that they are competent to make that decision.
The only time that the state gets involved in the decision is if neither parent nor child is deemed competent to understand and make an informed choice. This happens very very infrequently, and would normally require a court case to decide what action should be taken.
In summary: the parent is the first call for consent, the child can override the parent only if they can demonstrate sufficient understanding, the state can only override parent and child by a long and expensive court procedure."That makes sense | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"I have absolutely no doubt that parents will discuss the situation with their kids and many will "Tell their kids what to do". There will also be lessons in school devoted to discussing the Pros & Cons, these WILL be student lead discussion and staff have already been told that they must not "push" a particular viewpoint. Cal School should not be giving lessons they are medically trained Kids go to school to be educated Dr's for medical assessments Teachers are not medically trained and should to touch this subjext It is no different than student lead discussions in various life subjects. It’s good for them to talk things through to see & discuss both sides. It is education as they learn debating skills, as well as learning how to accept different points of view. In our school it isn’t the teachers leading the topic, they are there as mediators and a specialist is bought in for the topic under discussion So you agree 12 year olds should get the vote Where did I say they get the vote
To answer your question, as part of learning our school joins in with the elections here & state side. Research each party, have group discussions and then they have to cast a vote on Election Day to see who they decided to elect. Again all part of life skills and learning. "You said some 12,year olds compent So please explain why they can't vote | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"I have absolutely no doubt that parents will discuss the situation with their kids and many will "Tell their kids what to do". There will also be lessons in school devoted to discussing the Pros & Cons, these WILL be student lead discussion and staff have already been told that they must not "push" a particular viewpoint. Cal School should not be giving lessons they are medically trained Kids go to school to be educated Dr's for medical assessments Teachers are not medically trained and should to touch this subjext It is no different than student lead discussions in various life subjects. It’s good for them to talk things through to see & discuss both sides. It is education as they learn debating skills, as well as learning how to accept different points of view. In our school it isn’t the teachers leading the topic, they are there as mediators and a specialist is bought in for the topic under discussion So you agree 12 year olds should get the vote Where did I say they get the vote
To answer your question, as part of learning our school joins in with the elections here & state side. Research each party, have group discussions and then they have to cast a vote on Election Day to see who they decided to elect. Again all part of life skills and learning.
You said some 12,year olds compent
So please explain why they can't vote"I didn’t say that, look back. Agree though some 12 year olds are competent to make informed decisions and some aren’t. Every person is different, even at 18 some don’t have the knowledge or the know how to obtain it to make informed decisions. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"I have absolutely no doubt that parents will discuss the situation with their kids and many will "Tell their kids what to do". There will also be lessons in school devoted to discussing the Pros & Cons, these WILL be student lead discussion and staff have already been told that they must not "push" a particular viewpoint. Cal School should not be giving lessons they are medically trained Kids go to school to be educated Dr's for medical assessments Teachers are not medically trained and should to touch this subjext It is no different than student lead discussions in various life subjects. It’s good for them to talk things through to see & discuss both sides. It is education as they learn debating skills, as well as learning how to accept different points of view. In our school it isn’t the teachers leading the topic, they are there as mediators and a specialist is bought in for the topic under discussion So you agree 12 year olds should get the vote Where did I say they get the vote
To answer your question, as part of learning our school joins in with the elections here & state side. Research each party, have group discussions and then they have to cast a vote on Election Day to see who they decided to elect. Again all part of life skills and learning.
You said some 12,year olds compent
So please explain why they can't vote"I would presume that voting effects the whole country but making a decision on something that is their sole being is a different matter | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"How low can this goverment go.... They are going to withdraw the right of parental consent How can a 12 year old make a decision. A parent should be making decision upto 16. There are no morals in this goverment This is like a communist state source ? It looks like people are adding 2 and 2 atm... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/08/25/nhs-draws-plans-vaccinate-12-year-olds/" paywalled. Buy from other sources it seems the NHS are preparing and that it will be done under existing guidelines which I have posted above. Eg the way the UK has been for years. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"I have absolutely no doubt that parents will discuss the situation with their kids and many will "Tell their kids what to do". There will also be lessons in school devoted to discussing the Pros & Cons, these WILL be student lead discussion and staff have already been told that they must not "push" a particular viewpoint. Cal School should not be giving lessons they are medically trained Kids go to school to be educated Dr's for medical assessments Teachers are not medically trained and should to touch this subjext It is no different than student lead discussions in various life subjects. It’s good for them to talk things through to see & discuss both sides. It is education as they learn debating skills, as well as learning how to accept different points of view. In our school it isn’t the teachers leading the topic, they are there as mediators and a specialist is bought in for the topic under discussion So you agree 12 year olds should get the vote Where did I say they get the vote
To answer your question, as part of learning our school joins in with the elections here & state side. Research each party, have group discussions and then they have to cast a vote on Election Day to see who they decided to elect. Again all part of life skills and learning.
You said some 12,year olds compent
So please explain why they can't vote
I would presume that voting effects the whole country but making a decision on something that is their sole being is a different matter "Vaccination effect whole country. And if they can make a decision that important and competent then there competent to vote Yiu can't have it both ways. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right I'll say it's right
Gillick competency is the standard for any medical decision where a child may consent.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/children/
If it's good enough for pretty much anything else and has been the law in England and Wales for over 30 years, then it's good enough for vaccinations.
So why do they ask parents permission for flu jab
My child has underlying medical condition which he would need to refer to consultant but on school he would probably bow to peer pressure and say yesq
I suggest you look into Gillick competency if it concerns you. It has been the law in England and Wales for my lifetime.
I suggest it better to engage with parents use Gillick as last resort not first step
Also why are even vaccinating children the risk is to big
If you believe so then communicate that to your child.
If your child has the capacity to choose for themselves, I'm sure said child will weigh up your opinion.
A 12 year old can't weigh this up.
12 year old some can't even read or write in this country. This a complex decision.
If you think a 12 yeah old can make this decision then I worry about this society.
12 year old can't drink smoke joining army go put have a bet cos their not ready. This decision is more risky than the above.
12 year. Old is not old enough full sfop
I disagree, and thankfully so does over 35 years of law in this country
So explain why schools ask if they can have. Flu jab
Because you don't understand Gillick competency. If parents consent, good. If a child *judged capable of consenting* makes their own decision, then there's leeway for that decision to be respected. It's not boom, 12, adult. It's a gradual introduction of responsibility and capacity.
(Actually, under some circumstances the government can temporarily remove parental rights to ensure medical care occurs, and way earlier than 12. Stuff like Jehovah's witness children and blood transfusions)
It's not a Covid thing, it's not a conspiracy. It's just the way medicine works in England and Wales for adolescents.
Covid jab is a vaccine. The man is asking why this vaccine is compulsory rather than choice
OP, nobody is making this vaccine compulsory. The situation is the same as for every other medical treatment across this age group, including the flu jabs. In the vast majority of cases the decision about treatment or not is made by the parent - hence why the letter about the flu jab for parent to give consent.
However if the child away from the influence of the parent disagrees with the parental choice, and the child is assessed as being intelligent enough to understand the choice and the consequences of the decision, then the wishes of the child can be obeyed rather than those of the parent.
In the case of the covid jab, vaccination is allowed if both parent and child say yes, and not allowed if both say no. However if the child wishes to be vaccinated it can be done if the child is found capable of making the decision in an informed way. Likewise, the parent cannot force treatment onto the child, if the child can show that they are competent to make that decision.
The only time that the state gets involved in the decision is if neither parent nor child is deemed competent to understand and make an informed choice. This happens very very infrequently, and would normally require a court case to decide what action should be taken.
In summary: the parent is the first call for consent, the child can override the parent only if they can demonstrate sufficient understanding, the state can only override parent and child by a long and expensive court procedure.
That makes sense"It always best to engage all parties usually resolve most issues. Therefore if you a parent please take responsibility yiyr tgere to protect your child | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"I have absolutely no doubt that parents will discuss the situation with their kids and many will "Tell their kids what to do". There will also be lessons in school devoted to discussing the Pros & Cons, these WILL be student lead discussion and staff have already been told that they must not "push" a particular viewpoint. Cal School should not be giving lessons they are medically trained Kids go to school to be educated Dr's for medical assessments Teachers are not medically trained and should to touch this subjext It is no different than student lead discussions in various life subjects. It’s good for them to talk things through to see & discuss both sides. It is education as they learn debating skills, as well as learning how to accept different points of view. In our school it isn’t the teachers leading the topic, they are there as mediators and a specialist is bought in for the topic under discussion So you agree 12 year olds should get the vote Where did I say they get the vote
To answer your question, as part of learning our school joins in with the elections here & state side. Research each party, have group discussions and then they have to cast a vote on Election Day to see who they decided to elect. Again all part of life skills and learning.
You said some 12,year olds compent
So please explain why they can't vote
I would presume that voting effects the whole country but making a decision on something that is their sole being is a different matter
Vaccination effect whole country.
And if they can make a decision that important and competent then there competent to vote Yiu can't have it both ways. "Not the same at all! | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"I have absolutely no doubt that parents will discuss the situation with their kids and many will "Tell their kids what to do". There will also be lessons in school devoted to discussing the Pros & Cons, these WILL be student lead discussion and staff have already been told that they must not "push" a particular viewpoint. Cal School should not be giving lessons they are medically trained Kids go to school to be educated Dr's for medical assessments Teachers are not medically trained and should to touch this subjext It is no different than student lead discussions in various life subjects. It’s good for them to talk things through to see & discuss both sides. It is education as they learn debating skills, as well as learning how to accept different points of view. In our school it isn’t the teachers leading the topic, they are there as mediators and a specialist is bought in for the topic under discussion So you agree 12 year olds should get the vote Where did I say they get the vote
To answer your question, as part of learning our school joins in with the elections here & state side. Research each party, have group discussions and then they have to cast a vote on Election Day to see who they decided to elect. Again all part of life skills and learning.
You said some 12,year olds compent
So please explain why they can't vote"I'd imagine determining competency at a population level isn't easy. If a 12 yo could show they understand manifestos etc I could see an argument for extending the vote out. The flip side is this has education bias. Different queation tho ... | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"It is sad and shocking and morally very wrong. I do feel for how this country is becoming " This. I also think the same about it | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"I have absolutely no doubt that parents will discuss the situation with their kids and many will "Tell their kids what to do". There will also be lessons in school devoted to discussing the Pros & Cons, these WILL be student lead discussion and staff have already been told that they must not "push" a particular viewpoint. Cal ----- School should not be giving lessons they are medically trained Kids go to school to be educated Dr's for medical assessments Teachers are not medically trained and should to touch this subjext" They are not giving lessons, the are using lessons to allow students to discuss the situation.  | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right I'll say it's right
Gillick competency is the standard for any medical decision where a child may consent.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/children/
If it's good enough for pretty much anything else and has been the law in England and Wales for over 30 years, then it's good enough for vaccinations.
So why do they ask parents permission for flu jab
My child has underlying medical condition which he would need to refer to consultant but on school he would probably bow to peer pressure and say yesq
I suggest you look into Gillick competency if it concerns you. It has been the law in England and Wales for my lifetime.
I suggest it better to engage with parents use Gillick as last resort not first step
Also why are even vaccinating children the risk is to big
If you believe so then communicate that to your child.
If your child has the capacity to choose for themselves, I'm sure said child will weigh up your opinion.
A 12 year old can't weigh this up.
12 year old some can't even read or write in this country. This a complex decision.
If you think a 12 yeah old can make this decision then I worry about this society.
12 year old can't drink smoke joining army go put have a bet cos their not ready. This decision is more risky than the above.
12 year. Old is not old enough full sfop
I disagree, and thankfully so does over 35 years of law in this country
So explain why schools ask if they can have. Flu jab
Because you don't understand Gillick competency. If parents consent, good. If a child *judged capable of consenting* makes their own decision, then there's leeway for that decision to be respected. It's not boom, 12, adult. It's a gradual introduction of responsibility and capacity.
(Actually, under some circumstances the government can temporarily remove parental rights to ensure medical care occurs, and way earlier than 12. Stuff like Jehovah's witness children and blood transfusions)
It's not a Covid thing, it's not a conspiracy. It's just the way medicine works in England and Wales for adolescents.
Covid jab is a vaccine. The man is asking why this vaccine is compulsory rather than choice
OP, nobody is making this vaccine compulsory. The situation is the same as for every other medical treatment across this age group, including the flu jabs. In the vast majority of cases the decision about treatment or not is made by the parent - hence why the letter about the flu jab for parent to give consent.
However if the child away from the influence of the parent disagrees with the parental choice, and the child is assessed as being intelligent enough to understand the choice and the consequences of the decision, then the wishes of the child can be obeyed rather than those of the parent.
In the case of the covid jab, vaccination is allowed if both parent and child say yes, and not allowed if both say no. However if the child wishes to be vaccinated it can be done if the child is found capable of making the decision in an informed way. Likewise, the parent cannot force treatment onto the child, if the child can show that they are competent to make that decision.
The only time that the state gets involved in the decision is if neither parent nor child is deemed competent to understand and make an informed choice. This happens very very infrequently, and would normally require a court case to decide what action should be taken.
In summary: the parent is the first call for consent, the child can override the parent only if they can demonstrate sufficient understanding, the state can only override parent and child by a long and expensive court procedure."
A lot of people are using the Gillick competency as justification for vaccinating kids without parental consent however, as you pointed out this isn’t a law that allows the state to just remove parental consent at all, it is specifically applied only when a child wishes to do something that they would usually need consent for at that point the child is assessed in their decision making competency.
I think the point people are getting flustered about is that Gillick competency Isn’t what’s being applied here. It’s mass removal of the requirement for consent. I cannot see how they have the resource to perform assessments on every single 12-15 yo anytime soon either. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new" Is that relevant? That is to be used in individual cases and is assessed by professionals after appropriate tests on the individual. Its not intended to apply generically to all 12 to 16 year olds to derive health policy? It's a dangerous path to go down. We have enough issues with the ability of our population being unable to wash their own hands and attending work when infectious to assess and manage their own lives without deferring ever more decisions on their offspring to outside agencies. Parents should parent children. I have no issue with jabbing whomever... I have a huge issue removing parental consent for medical interventions... And the benefits and risks are what? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right Many children are more open minded and informed compared to some adults. Many are perfectly able to choose what treatment or vaccine they have. It's been law for years because this has been found. " Openminded perhaps, informed about SARS-CoV-2 vaccinations no. Nobody is informed frankly the manufacturers don’t know the side effects. This is a worldwide medical trial.. Continue reading: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulatory-approval-of-pfizer-biontech-vaccine-for-covid-19/information-for-uk-recipients-on-pfizerbiontech-covid-19-vaccine#side-effects Personally I have had cv19 twice, ones before the first vaccine, not great for 3-4 days, second bout, after vaccine nearly hospitalised. For me the vaccine did not work. Research office of national statistics - deaths from cv vaccine Hmmm not sure about minors making life altering decisions and not being fully informed?!  | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Well obviously your not a parent. Children In general do not have issues with covid therefore the risk analysis is vaccination is more risk than dose e therefore I can't believe jvi will authorise Therefore the state wil ask a 12 year old if they want vaccination. Adults can say no" Vaccine risk in kids is lower than risk of dying of covid. Stop eith the nonsense | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Look up Gillick Competency it's been around for years. Not something new So you saying it's right Many children are more open minded and informed compared to some adults. Many are perfectly able to choose what treatment or vaccine they have. It's been law for years because this has been found. Openminded perhaps, informed about SARS-CoV-2 vaccinations no. Nobody is informed frankly the manufacturers don’t know the side effects. This is a worldwide medical trial.. Continue reading: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulatory-approval-of-pfizer-biontech-vaccine-for-covid-19/information-for-uk-recipients-on-pfizerbiontech-covid-19-vaccine#side-effects Personally I have had cv19 twice, ones before the first vaccine, not great for 3-4 days, second bout, after vaccine nearly hospitalised. For me the vaccine did not work. Research office of national statistics - deaths from cv vaccine Hmmm not sure about minors making life altering decisions and not being fully informed?! "Absolute nonsense. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"How low can this goverment go.... They are going to withdraw the right of parental consent How can a 12 year old make a decision. A parent should be making decision upto 16. There are no morals in this goverment This is like a communist state " To be honest, I think this country is a million miles away from being a communist state. To suggest it is, in order to support your miss-informed outrage, is weak. E | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Well obviously your not a parent. Children In general do not have issues with covid therefore the risk analysis is vaccination is more risk than dose e therefore I can't believe jvi will authorise Therefore the state wil ask a 12 year old if they want vaccination. Adults can say no Vaccine risk in kids is lower than risk of dying of covid. Stop eith the nonsense " It has nothing at all to do with risk whatsoever. It is about consent. Some parents may want their children to be vaccinated but still don’t want that decision taken away from them by the government. Because it sets a worrying precedent. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Well obviously your not a parent. Children In general do not have issues with covid therefore the risk analysis is vaccination is more risk than dose e therefore I can't believe jvi will authorise Therefore the state wil ask a 12 year old if they want vaccination. Adults can say no Vaccine risk in kids is lower than risk of dying of covid. Stop eith the nonsense " No of deaths of children aged 1 to 14 year old where covid is mentioned according to then ons from 1 Feb to Aug 13th Is 4. Source https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/deaths | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Well obviously your not a parent. Children In general do not have issues with covid therefore the risk analysis is vaccination is more risk than dose e therefore I can't believe jvi will authorise " Evidence for vaccine a greater risk? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Covid jab is a vaccine. The man is asking why this vaccine is compulsory rather than choice It is a choice. The choice may be given to a child deemed competent. As with any other medical decision in that child's life. If the child is not competent? If the child is not competent? The parents choice is now deemed irrelevant? If a child is judged able to make their own decisions then it may override the parents' decision. If a child is not competent then it will not. Maybe I wasn't as clear as I should have been as I don't get your answer So a child is not competent to make a decision about a vaccine, the parents say they don't want the vaccine, they are deemed irrelevant and the child is given the vaccine?" If the parents say no and the child is not deemed competent to make the decision, they don't get the vaccine. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"I have absolutely no doubt that parents will discuss the situation with their kids and many will "Tell their kids what to do". There will also be lessons in school devoted to discussing the Pros & Cons, these WILL be student lead discussion and staff have already been told that they must not "push" a particular viewpoint. Cal School should not be giving lessons they are medically trained Kids go to school to be educated Dr's for medical assessments Teachers are not medically trained and should to touch this subjext It is no different than student lead discussions in various life subjects. It’s good for them to talk things through to see & discuss both sides. It is education as they learn debating skills, as well as learning how to accept different points of view. In our school it isn’t the teachers leading the topic, they are there as mediators and a specialist is bought in for the topic under discussion So you agree 12 year olds should get the vote Where did I say they get the vote
To answer your question, as part of learning our school joins in with the elections here & state side. Research each party, have group discussions and then they have to cast a vote on Election Day to see who they decided to elect. Again all part of life skills and learning.
You said some 12,year olds compent
So please explain why they can't vote
I would presume that voting effects the whole country but making a decision on something that is their sole being is a different matter "Bit of a backwards argument when the sole reason for vaccinating them in the first place is for the impact it has on the whole country. No? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Covid jab is a vaccine. The man is asking why this vaccine is compulsory rather than choice It is a choice. The choice may be given to a child deemed competent. As with any other medical decision in that child's life. If the child is not competent? If the child is not competent? The parents choice is now deemed irrelevant? If a child is judged able to make their own decisions then it may override the parents' decision. If a child is not competent then it will not. Maybe I wasn't as clear as I should have been as I don't get your answer So a child is not competent to make a decision about a vaccine, the parents say they don't want the vaccine, they are deemed irrelevant and the child is given the vaccine? If the parents say no and the child is not deemed competent to make the decision, they don't get the vaccine." That’s not the scenario the OP published. The OPs concern was on removal of the need for consent altogether. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Well obviously your not a parent. Children In general do not have issues with covid therefore the risk analysis is vaccination is more risk than dose e therefore I can't believe jvi will authorise Therefore the state wil ask a 12 year old if they want vaccination. Adults can say no Vaccine risk in kids is lower than risk of dying of covid. Stop eith the nonsense It has nothing at all to do with risk whatsoever. It is about consent. Some parents may want their children to be vaccinated but still don’t want that decision taken away from them by the government. Because it sets a worrying precedent. " It has everything to do with risk, consent is not consent if it is not informed consent. You might consent to bb sex but that consent is invalidated if your partner fails to inform you about their positive STI diagnosis. I agree I don’t like the precedent but this pandemic has also show us there is a sector of society that are unable to make wise decisions regards their own health let alone that of their children. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Well obviously your not a parent. Children In general do not have issues with covid therefore the risk analysis is vaccination is more risk than dose e therefore I can't believe jvi will authorise Therefore the state wil ask a 12 year old if they want vaccination. Adults can say no Vaccine risk in kids is lower than risk of dying of covid. Stop eith the nonsense It has nothing at all to do with risk whatsoever. It is about consent. Some parents may want their children to be vaccinated but still don’t want that decision taken away from them by the government. Because it sets a worrying precedent. It has everything to do with risk, consent is not consent if it is not informed consent. You might consent to bb sex but that consent is invalidated if your partner fails to inform you about their positive STI diagnosis. I agree I don’t like the precedent but this pandemic has also show us there is a sector of society that are unable to make wise decisions regards their own health let alone that of their children. " No this particular post and the argument around it has nothing to do with risk. It is whether or not the government should be allowed to blanket remove consent from the parents with respect to medical interventions. Taking your child on a school field trip has very little risk associated but parents still want the right to consent? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Well obviously your not a parent. Children In general do not have issues with covid therefore the risk analysis is vaccination is more risk than dose e therefore I can't believe jvi will authorise Evidence for vaccine a greater risk? " Vaccines are never zero risk, the very low incidence of children coming to harm from cov19 is in itself strong evidence that kids having one of the vaccines would be at greater risk having one than not having one. Unless there is more evidence to the contrary? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"The kids of the anti brigade will be plenty brainwashed not to go against their parents wishes. Fair play to those strong enough to defy their cowardly parents ! " Cowardly parents ...nice. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Covid jab is a vaccine. The man is asking why this vaccine is compulsory rather than choice It is a choice. The choice may be given to a child deemed competent. As with any other medical decision in that child's life. If the child is not competent? If the child is not competent? The parents choice is now deemed irrelevant? If a child is judged able to make their own decisions then it may override the parents' decision. If a child is not competent then it will not. Maybe I wasn't as clear as I should have been as I don't get your answer So a child is not competent to make a decision about a vaccine, the parents say they don't want the vaccine, they are deemed irrelevant and the child is given the vaccine? If the parents say no and the child is not deemed competent to make the decision, they don't get the vaccine. That’s not the scenario the OP published. The OPs concern was on removal of the need for consent altogether. " I see zero evidence of that happening. Every bit of coverage I've seen falls in line with Gillick competency, which is the law in England and Wales and has been for a long time. If there's any coverage that contradicts that then I'm happy to be corrected. Until then, I feel this is fuss over nothing. We gradually give young people autonomy, including in their medical care. They are assumed incompetent (but this assumption can be overturned) until 16 or 18. (From 16 or 18 they are assumed competent and that can be overturned - but that's extremely difficult) | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Covid jab is a vaccine. The man is asking why this vaccine is compulsory rather than choice It is a choice. The choice may be given to a child deemed competent. As with any other medical decision in that child's life. If the child is not competent? If the child is not competent? The parents choice is now deemed irrelevant? If a child is judged able to make their own decisions then it may override the parents' decision. If a child is not competent then it will not. Maybe I wasn't as clear as I should have been as I don't get your answer So a child is not competent to make a decision about a vaccine, the parents say they don't want the vaccine, they are deemed irrelevant and the child is given the vaccine? If the parents say no and the child is not deemed competent to make the decision, they don't get the vaccine. That’s not the scenario the OP published. The OPs concern was on removal of the need for consent altogether. I see zero evidence of that happening. Every bit of coverage I've seen falls in line with Gillick competency, which is the law in England and Wales and has been for a long time. If there's any coverage that contradicts that then I'm happy to be corrected. Until then, I feel this is fuss over nothing. We gradually give young people autonomy, including in their medical care. They are assumed incompetent (but this assumption can be overturned) until 16 or 18. (From 16 or 18 they are assumed competent and that can be overturned - but that's extremely difficult)" I also expect it won’t happen. Imagine the anarchy. But that’s what people are concerned about. It may be fuss over nothing in your eyes. But if you’re a parent and you’re being told this is something the government is considering then it’s likely going to turn into a fuss. Stating that the government is allowed to do this based on Gillick competency, which isn’t even relevant in this particular scenario is inaccurate and causes unnecessary worry. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"So my 12 yr old can have a vaccine without my consent but the school has to phone me to get my consent to give my son a paracetamol. Makes absolutely no sense ." This and yes it doesnt make sense that. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Covid jab is a vaccine. The man is asking why this vaccine is compulsory rather than choice It is a choice. The choice may be given to a child deemed competent. As with any other medical decision in that child's life. If the child is not competent? If the child is not competent? The parents choice is now deemed irrelevant? If a child is judged able to make their own decisions then it may override the parents' decision. If a child is not competent then it will not. Maybe I wasn't as clear as I should have been as I don't get your answer So a child is not competent to make a decision about a vaccine, the parents say they don't want the vaccine, they are deemed irrelevant and the child is given the vaccine? If the parents say no and the child is not deemed competent to make the decision, they don't get the vaccine. That’s not the scenario the OP published. The OPs concern was on removal of the need for consent altogether. I see zero evidence of that happening. Every bit of coverage I've seen falls in line with Gillick competency, which is the law in England and Wales and has been for a long time. If there's any coverage that contradicts that then I'm happy to be corrected. Until then, I feel this is fuss over nothing. We gradually give young people autonomy, including in their medical care. They are assumed incompetent (but this assumption can be overturned) until 16 or 18. (From 16 or 18 they are assumed competent and that can be overturned - but that's extremely difficult) I also expect it won’t happen. Imagine the anarchy. But that’s what people are concerned about. It may be fuss over nothing in your eyes. But if you’re a parent and you’re being told this is something the government is considering then it’s likely going to turn into a fuss. Stating that the government is allowed to do this based on Gillick competency, which isn’t even relevant in this particular scenario is inaccurate and causes unnecessary worry. " Why is Gillick competency irrelevant? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Parents get asked if their child wants a flu jab spray So what act differently with covid What not work with parents. This is a goverment who can't be trusted and has the worst death rate in the world per capita" government run by a bunch of Muppets | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"This is like a communist state I’m not sure if it’s quite comparable to North Korea
How communist, recognising that some adolescents can make their own decisions under some circumstances
Some not all.
Why not work with parents yes n Korea honest ignore familes this goverment pretends it cares which is more dangerous "Probably best if you move your family to another country where the 'communist' regime can't force you or your children any more. Easy. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Basically there has been no changes to the laws regarding vaccines for children over 12. If the parent consents and the child is happy to have the vaccine all well and good. The main issue comes in when the parents refuse but the child wants to have said vaccine. The child can then be assessed by a qualified person eg gp etc and if it is deemed the child can fully understand the consequences and reasoning for the vaccine and wants to go against their parents wishes then the vaccine can be legally administered against the parents consent. " What happens if the parents want the child to be vaccinated but the child refuses?. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Basically there has been no changes to the laws regarding vaccines for children over 12. If the parent consents and the child is happy to have the vaccine all well and good. The main issue comes in when the parents refuse but the child wants to have said vaccine. The child can then be assessed by a qualified person eg gp etc and if it is deemed the child can fully understand the consequences and reasoning for the vaccine and wants to go against their parents wishes then the vaccine can be legally administered against the parents consent. What happens if the parents want the child to be vaccinated but the child refuses?. " Again if the child is strongly against and can understand the consequences of refusal they can refuse. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Basically there has been no changes to the laws regarding vaccines for children over 12. If the parent consents and the child is happy to have the vaccine all well and good. The main issue comes in when the parents refuse but the child wants to have said vaccine. The child can then be assessed by a qualified person eg gp etc and if it is deemed the child can fully understand the consequences and reasoning for the vaccine and wants to go against their parents wishes then the vaccine can be legally administered against the parents consent. What happens if the parents want the child to be vaccinated but the child refuses?. Again if the child is strongly against and can understand the consequences of refusal they can refuse. " What happens if they can't prove they understand the consequences of refusal?. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Basically there has been no changes to the laws regarding vaccines for children over 12. If the parent consents and the child is happy to have the vaccine all well and good. The main issue comes in when the parents refuse but the child wants to have said vaccine. The child can then be assessed by a qualified person eg gp etc and if it is deemed the child can fully understand the consequences and reasoning for the vaccine and wants to go against their parents wishes then the vaccine can be legally administered against the parents consent. What happens if the parents want the child to be vaccinated but the child refuses?. Again if the child is strongly against and can understand the consequences of refusal they can refuse. What happens if they can't prove they understand the consequences of refusal?. " The whole thing is full of questions. I'd hope the Govt would give clear, concise, easy to follow guidelines. But then one Christmas I hoped for a bmx. That'd didn't happen either! | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Covid jab is a vaccine. The man is asking why this vaccine is compulsory rather than choice It is a choice. The choice may be given to a child deemed competent. As with any other medical decision in that child's life. If the child is not competent? If the child is not competent? The parents choice is now deemed irrelevant? If a child is judged able to make their own decisions then it may override the parents' decision. If a child is not competent then it will not. Maybe I wasn't as clear as I should have been as I don't get your answer So a child is not competent to make a decision about a vaccine, the parents say they don't want the vaccine, they are deemed irrelevant and the child is given the vaccine? If the parents say no and the child is not deemed competent to make the decision, they don't get the vaccine. That’s not the scenario the OP published. The OPs concern was on removal of the need for consent altogether. I see zero evidence of that happening. Every bit of coverage I've seen falls in line with Gillick competency, which is the law in England and Wales and has been for a long time. If there's any coverage that contradicts that then I'm happy to be corrected. Until then, I feel this is fuss over nothing. We gradually give young people autonomy, including in their medical care. They are assumed incompetent (but this assumption can be overturned) until 16 or 18. (From 16 or 18 they are assumed competent and that can be overturned - but that's extremely difficult) I also expect it won’t happen. Imagine the anarchy. But that’s what people are concerned about. It may be fuss over nothing in your eyes. But if you’re a parent and you’re being told this is something the government is considering then it’s likely going to turn into a fuss. Stating that the government is allowed to do this based on Gillick competency, which isn’t even relevant in this particular scenario is inaccurate and causes unnecessary worry. Why is Gillick competency irrelevant?" At the moment the gillick competency is selectively applied to individuals correct? And presumably at the request of the child. And it takes time? Are they going to have time and inclination to perform the appropriate tests and process? How long does it take? It's all hypotheses but the principle still holds. Support the parent / child relationship not fracture it further. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Basically there has been no changes to the laws regarding vaccines for children over 12. If the parent consents and the child is happy to have the vaccine all well and good. The main issue comes in when the parents refuse but the child wants to have said vaccine. The child can then be assessed by a qualified person eg gp etc and if it is deemed the child can fully understand the consequences and reasoning for the vaccine and wants to go against their parents wishes then the vaccine can be legally administered against the parents consent. What happens if the parents want the child to be vaccinated but the child refuses?. Again if the child is strongly against and can understand the consequences of refusal they can refuse. What happens if they can't prove they understand the consequences of refusal?. " If the child cannot demonstrate understanding of the decision, then the parents choice has to be followed. The only way this can be overturned is if the parents also are assessed as being unfit to decide, but this then takes a long and expensive court case and would involve the child being made a ward of the state. The only times I am aware of this happening are things like parents refusing to allow life saving treatments for their children (blood transfusions, surgery and such like) for religious or other irrational reasons, and other parties coming forward to argue on the childrens behalf (maybe grandparents or other relatives, or social care professionals if there is cause to believe the childs best interests are not being followed). All this is completely normal and is the way the law has been for about 30 years. Or do we wish to return to the times when parents had absolute authority over their children, abusers were completely free to knock hell out of their kids, 16 year old girls could be sold into marriage? Because that is what "pure and sacred bond between parent and child, parent always knows best" means - allowing parents to treat children as property. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Basically there has been no changes to the laws regarding vaccines for children over 12. If the parent consents and the child is happy to have the vaccine all well and good. The main issue comes in when the parents refuse but the child wants to have said vaccine. The child can then be assessed by a qualified person eg gp etc and if it is deemed the child can fully understand the consequences and reasoning for the vaccine and wants to go against their parents wishes then the vaccine can be legally administered against the parents consent. What happens if the parents want the child to be vaccinated but the child refuses?. Again if the child is strongly against and can understand the consequences of refusal they can refuse. What happens if they can't prove they understand the consequences of refusal?. If the child cannot demonstrate understanding of the decision, then the parents choice has to be followed. The only way this can be overturned is if the parents also are assessed as being unfit to decide, but this then takes a long and expensive court case and would involve the child being made a ward of the state. The only times I am aware of this happening are things like parents refusing to allow life saving treatments for their children (blood transfusions, surgery and such like) for religious or other irrational reasons, and other parties coming forward to argue on the childrens behalf (maybe grandparents or other relatives, or social care professionals if there is cause to believe the childs best interests are not being followed). All this is completely normal and is the way the law has been for about 30 years. Or do we wish to return to the times when parents had absolute authority over their children, abusers were completely free to knock hell out of their kids, 16 year old girls could be sold into marriage? Because that is what "pure and sacred bond between parent and child, parent always knows best" means - allowing parents to treat children as property." I see, so they get forcefully held down and injected?. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Basically there has been no changes to the laws regarding vaccines for children over 12. If the parent consents and the child is happy to have the vaccine all well and good. The main issue comes in when the parents refuse but the child wants to have said vaccine. The child can then be assessed by a qualified person eg gp etc and if it is deemed the child can fully understand the consequences and reasoning for the vaccine and wants to go against their parents wishes then the vaccine can be legally administered against the parents consent. What happens if the parents want the child to be vaccinated but the child refuses?. Again if the child is strongly against and can understand the consequences of refusal they can refuse. What happens if they can't prove they understand the consequences of refusal?. If the child cannot demonstrate understanding of the decision, then the parents choice has to be followed. The only way this can be overturned is if the parents also are assessed as being unfit to decide, but this then takes a long and expensive court case and would involve the child being made a ward of the state. The only times I am aware of this happening are things like parents refusing to allow life saving treatments for their children (blood transfusions, surgery and such like) for religious or other irrational reasons, and other parties coming forward to argue on the childrens behalf (maybe grandparents or other relatives, or social care professionals if there is cause to believe the childs best interests are not being followed). All this is completely normal and is the way the law has been for about 30 years. Or do we wish to return to the times when parents had absolute authority over their children, abusers were completely free to knock hell out of their kids, 16 year old girls could be sold into marriage? Because that is what "pure and sacred bond between parent and child, parent always knows best" means - allowing parents to treat children as property. I see, so they get forcefully held down and injected?. " Where in this thread has this ever been suggested? The whole principle of gillick competency is to give children a part in the decision making process, specifically so that once they are intelligent and aware enough, they are not forced to blindly follow the wishes of their parents. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Instead of making a fuss about nothing, we don't understand why parents can't give young people credit for being individuals with choice. We have discussed this issue with our 15 year old daughter and given her a free choice as it is her body. We would prefer her to be vaccinated but are not going to force her to be, however she has indicated that she will get vaccinated. The same scenario would have applied had this been an issue in the past few years. Many 12 to 15 year olds are mature enough to make their own decisions and argue the point. Those that are not will either do as their parents tell them or be unable to convince the medical profession that they have come to a free choice. Therefore the arguments in the original post are pretty irrelevant." Yes. That's what Gillick competency is. Recognising that children begin to develop the capacity to choose for themselves. Not assuming that it exists, but judging it by a standard enshrined in law. It seems to me in line with everything else we do with kids - gradually give them independence and responsibility. Some 12 year olds will be able to decide. The law empowers them, and protects those who cannot. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"How low can this goverment go.... They are going to withdraw the right of parental consent How can a 12 year old make a decision. A parent should be making decision upto 16. There are no morals in this goverment This is like a communist state source ? It looks like people are adding 2 and 2 atm... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/08/25/nhs-draws-plans-vaccinate-12-year-olds/paywalled. Buy from other sources it seems the NHS are preparing and that it will be done under existing guidelines which I have posted above. Eg the way the UK has been for years. " You asked for a source. I provided it. I didn't give my view on it so you are answering the wrong person with your view | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Covid jab is a vaccine. The man is asking why this vaccine is compulsory rather than choice It is a choice. The choice may be given to a child deemed competent. As with any other medical decision in that child's life. If the child is not competent? If the child is not competent? The parents choice is now deemed irrelevant? If a child is judged able to make their own decisions then it may override the parents' decision. If a child is not competent then it will not. Maybe I wasn't as clear as I should have been as I don't get your answer So a child is not competent to make a decision about a vaccine, the parents say they don't want the vaccine, they are deemed irrelevant and the child is given the vaccine? If the parents say no and the child is not deemed competent to make the decision, they don't get the vaccine." According to the reports, parents are not going to be asked for permission. So their thoughts and wishes are going to be ignored if the report is true yet schools need permission to administer medicine at any other time, even a paracetamol It seems a strange state of affairs | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| back to top |  |
