FabSwingers.com forum: hancock in high court on tuesday

By *usybee73 OP Man
over a year ago

in the sticks

seems hancock has been ordered before the high court and give evidence on why non essential shops can open and pubs cant ...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9434527/Matt-Hancock-summoned-High-Court-justify-non-essential-shops-reopen-pubs.html

It comes after Pizza Express founder Hugh Osmond and nightclubs operator Sacha Lord launched a legal challenge claiming the Government has 'failed' to provide evidence for delaying the return of indoor drinking.

Pubs and restaurants in England will be able to lift the shutters of their outdoor areas to customers from April 12 - in line with the reopening of non-essential retail.

But the pair believe hospitality England should also be allowed to open indoor areas on the same day, rather than the current planned date of May 17.

They claim the risk of Covid transmission is higher in shops than it is in pubs and restaurants.

Now High Court judge Mr Justice Swift has ordered that the Health Secretary 'shall by 10am on Tuesday April 6 file and serve his response to the application'.

However, it is unlikely that Mr Hancock will attend in person. Officials from the Department for Health and Social Care are likely to attend on his behalf.

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By *all me FlikWoman
over a year ago

Galaxy Far Far Away

Its pretty simple to understand really....spending an extended period indoors in close proximity to others has a higher risk of transmission. If Pizza Express puts money before health and customer safety it'll be somewhere I will avoid in future.

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By *atandasmileMan
over a year ago

Edinburgh

"They claim the risk of Covid transmission is higher in shops than it is in pubs and restaurants."

I guess the case will rest on evaluating whether or not this is true. Given the spreading characteristics that covid is thought to have, I have my doubts. But it'll be interesting to see any evidence brought before the court. Then hopefully we can make a reasoned judgement.

I'd still prefer to be dining outside, which almost certainly has a lower risk than inside.

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By *usybee73 OP Man
over a year ago

in the sticks

"Its pretty simple to understand really....spending an extended period indoors in close proximity to others has a higher risk of transmission. If Pizza Express puts money before health and customer safety it'll be somewhere I will avoid in future."

It depends on the evidence, how it compares with shops in general, look at the supermarket... I would have a guess they would rate higher on places with covid

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By *usybee73 OP Man
over a year ago

in the sticks

""They claim the risk of Covid transmission is higher in shops than it is in pubs and restaurants."

I'd still prefer to be dining outside, which almost certainly has a lower risk than inside."

If I recall correctly, around 3 percent was the hospitality industry

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By *eoeclipseWoman
over a year ago

glasgow

I presume they(nightclub & hospitality) will be basing their evidence upon track & trace data, which I remember something being said last year about how due to the venue's being made covid secure there was little evidence of transmission being higher in pubs/restaurants than in the likes of tesco's.

plus the fact that has been a high up take in vaccines amongst the most vulnerable categories or those caring for them that the risk of both transmission (showing likely 60% less transmission with jab), the fact that cases are low, deaths are now low and the younger gen (under 50) haven't been vax'd yet so could also be excluded from these venues due to the Covid status passport and the extra nonsense to enforce it.

just case you didn't know the netherlands experimented recently with a weekend long festival with no restrictions, all younger, all had to prove covid free by test and wear a emotion/motion sensor whilst in attendance to measure emotional and human interactions. all that attended were part of a large experiment and had to agree to be totally monitored, it has raised lots of ethical questions around data collection, privacy, freedoms etc and is based on the fact that humans are social creatures and therefore need others for good mental health, which directly affects physical health and willpower to fight to live. media brought fear would have been monitored too as they were all told to behave as if covid never happened.

I need to go find the results though but I guessing since all were tested there was none. or it'll prove that regardless of testing, you ain't gonna stop all transmissions.

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By *pursChick aka ShortieWoman
over a year ago

On a mooch

Or maybe it’s just a simple way of tracking any rise in infections and the possible cause. If you open everything all at once and someone went to the gym, shopping (non essential), to a restaurant and then the pub in a day how would you work out where it is that it was likely picked up.

It’s a five week gap is it really worth court time over

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If it’s that simple to understand can you explain why the case rate didn’t increase when they opened indoors drinking last summer.

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By *ylonSlutTV/TS
over a year ago

Durham

If it’s that simple to understand can you explain why the case rate didn’t increase when they opened indoors drinking last summer."

The case rate did increase slightly when indoor pubs opened but educational establishments were all shut at the time. Also the rate before reopening was lower than it is now.

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By *ikeC81Man
over a year ago

harrow

My understanding is that the government calculations were based on Korean nightclub - that’s what I believe Sacha lord is raising the issue

Also there was studies done by parkrun that said outside transmission was minimal

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral

Bringing these sorts of actions against any government is not only irresponsible but down right criminal.

I will in future boycott Pizza Express I did go there on the odd occasion.

I hope they lose and go bankrupt

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Bringing these sorts of actions against any government is not only irresponsible but down right criminal.

I will in future boycott Pizza Express I did go there on the odd occasion.

I hope they lose and go bankrupt"

I bet their shares tumble on that shattering news.

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By *all me FlikWoman
over a year ago

Galaxy Far Far Away

If it’s that simple to understand can you explain why the case rate didn’t increase when they opened indoors drinking last summer."

It did increase and the principle for me is simple....focusing on profit rather than customer safety could be a longer term commercial mistake.

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By *exywheelsCouple
over a year ago

inverness

How long do you spend in the shop compared to how long you spend in the pub

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By *lirty-CoupleCouple
over a year ago

Bexley

"Bringing these sorts of actions against any government is not only irresponsible but down right criminal.

I will in future boycott Pizza Express I did go there on the odd occasion.

I hope they lose and go bankrupt"

Why would you hope a business goes bust? Who loses the most? The thousands of hardworking staff or the few directors? It'd be an interesting world in which challenging the legality of a government decision was made illegal. Would you agree with that premise if the cause was one you happen to feel strongly about? I doubt it.

The hospitality sector has done more than any other to ensure it operates within the government's Covid rules yet still they are being denied. What is the logic in that?

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By *0shadesOfFilthMan
over a year ago

nearby

47% now vaccinated. Risks are diminishing for uk at least.

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By *ngel696969Woman
over a year ago

Farnworth

"How long do you spend in the shop compared to how long you spend in the pub"

Yet lower infection rate

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By *exywheelsCouple
over a year ago

inverness

"How long do you spend in the shop compared to how long you spend in the pub

Yet lower infection rate "

How many people go to a shop and how many go to the pub

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By *eoeclipseWoman
over a year ago

glasgow

"Bringing these sorts of actions against any government is not only irresponsible but down right criminal.

I will in future boycott Pizza Express I did go there on the odd occasion.

I hope they lose and go bankrupt"

No, the gov needs to obide by the rule of law like everyone else, it is not above it, if it is then it's dictatorship.

the government in scotland was taken to court over the complete religious closures rather than reduced numbers/increased services to accomodate, They churches won on the basis of Humans rights grounds.

these business are no different as it's a human right to earn a living, this is theirs and they are being prevented by gov to operate legally within restrictions despite spending 10's of thousands to make places safe, therefore not only a loss in revenue but also loss on gov advise safety measures that gov then decided wasn't good enough.

as much as I don't like money hoarders (I just see no need for anyone to have millions), yet i understand these people are often not cash rich, they cannot just pull money from the bank to cover bills, it's often tied up in assets and investments which take time to get access to if at all because they are market dependant on value.

the biggest killer in business is cash flow issues especially now as bills keep coming with no revenue coming in! revenue/costs, those are obvious factors but not the killer, it only takes 1 debtor to put a business in administration/liquidation.

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By *usybee73 OP Man
over a year ago

in the sticks

If it’s that simple to understand can you explain why the case rate didn’t increase when they opened indoors drinking last summer.

It did increase and the principle for me is simple....focusing on profit rather than customer safety could be a longer term commercial mistake."

It probably increased due to the chancellor doing meal deals, can remember people picking up their kids from school and taking them to the pub for their tea ... used to shake my head in wonder

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Bringing these sorts of actions against any government is not only irresponsible but down right criminal.

I will in future boycott Pizza Express I did go there on the odd occasion.

I hope they lose and go bankrupt"

What a really shitty attitude.

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By *ommenhimCouple
over a year ago

wigan

"Bringing these sorts of actions against any government is not only irresponsible but down right criminal.

I will in future boycott Pizza Express I did go there on the odd occasion.

I hope they lose and go bankrupt

I bet their shares tumble on that shattering news."

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

The government takes the decisions, which may differ from what the data suggests. I'm sure that they will want to provide some vague, wordy answers that won't fully provide the details the explicit question demands. There will likely be some attempt to blame alcohol consumption, where they can

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Shut greggs, macdonalds pizza kfc

Open primark, local pub and chameleons

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By *mbisextrousCouple
over a year ago

Manchester/Glossop

"Bringing these sorts of actions against any government is not only irresponsible but down right criminal.

I will in future boycott Pizza Express I did go there on the odd occasion.

I hope they lose and go bankrupt

I bet their shares tumble on that shattering news.

Pizza express shut and laid my daughter off in the first lockdown didn’t even furlong them just said not opening again so your in titled to it

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Is Hancock there for just half an hour?

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By *eoeclipseWoman
over a year ago

glasgow

"The government takes the decisions, which may differ from what the data suggests. I'm sure that they will want to provide some vague, wordy answers that won't fully provide the details the explicit question demands. There will likely be some attempt to blame alcohol consumption, where they can"

If its a good judge that ain't in a pocket or under influence (both sides) which no judge should be, then they will have to explain properly & with every word listened to.

I.e the difference between saying "you're an asshole" & "your behaving like an asshole". A good judge picks up on the subtle differences in language that convey the truth as to what was meant.

It may was with gen pop but not in court. Courts are run by the rule of law not ruled by law so if it is not legally provable them gov are screwed basically & possibly liable for losses over & above grants, the only fail safe gov may have is that they called COBRA which is emergency status, that may allow the to mitigate or void losses claims.

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By *ixey and CopperCouple
over a year ago

Exeter

If it’s that simple to understand can you explain why the case rate didn’t increase when they opened indoors drinking last summer.

It did increase and the principle for me is simple....focusing on profit rather than customer safety could be a longer term commercial mistake."

It depends on your personal situation really.

If you've been Sat on your arse the whole way through getting furlough, or Been able to operate through the pandemic then it's probably easy to say that.

However, we've lost everything with our restaurant shut, when open we didn't get any cases of covid through track and trace, customers were sat 2 metres apart and "feel safer here than in the supermarkets" is a compelling argument to open!

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By *ackandtheunicornCouple
over a year ago

liverpool

I feel a hell of a lot safer in a covid secure pub than I ever have in Tesco's.

But everything should be open now, no restrictions.

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By *ewcouplemidsCouple
over a year ago

walsall

We agree went shopping for clothing last time and it was like a free for all yet a meal in a pub was a lot more controlled

Led to a table at least 2m away from the next asked not to get up

Waiter service all through meal

Shops were rammed people picking stuff up putting it down kids running riot while parents waited to pay

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By *lamourpussyCouple
over a year ago

Warwick

"seems hancock has been ordered before the high court and give evidence on why non essential shops can open and pubs cant ...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9434527/Matt-Hancock-summoned-High-Court-justify-non-essential-shops-reopen-pubs.html

Pubs and restaurants in England will be able to lift the shutters of their outdoor areas to customers from April 12 - in line with the reopening of non-essential retail.

But the pair believe hospitality England should also be allowed to open indoor areas on the same day, rather than the current planned date of May 17.

They claim the risk of Covid transmission is higher in shops than it is in pubs and restaurants.

Now High Court judge Mr Justice Swift has ordered that the Health Secretary 'shall by 10am on Tuesday April 6 file and serve his response to the application'.

However, it is unlikely that Mr Hancock will attend in person. Officials from the Department for Health and Social Care are likely to attend on his behalf."

This has got to be the most ridiculous waste of public money ever. Any idiot can see why there is a far greater risk opening pubs .

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I presume they(nightclub & hospitality) will be basing their evidence upon track & trace data, which I remember something being said last year about how due to the venue's being made covid secure there was little evidence of transmission being higher in pubs/restaurants than in the likes of tesco's.

I need to go find the results though but I guessing since all were tested there was none. or it'll prove that regardless of testing, you ain't gonna stop all transmissions. "

I've read of a few experiments but not seen the results.