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4 months immunity

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

Theres no future really is there we will be in this shit forever no matter what we are fucked no point living if you cant feel alive were in a jail of control forever

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By *eddy and legsCouple
over a year ago

the wetlands


"Theres no future really is there we will be in this shit forever no matter what we are fucked no point living if you cant feel alive were in a jail of control forever "

4 months immunity ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There's a huge difference between antibodies and T Cells.

Imagine each virus needs a specific lego set to deal with it.

So covid19 needs an xwing fighter Lego set.

The antibodies that are built up in your system from your covid infection would be complete Lego xwings waiting in your system ready to go.

Longer term immunity comes from your T Cells the best way to think of them is if they are the specific instruction sheet from the xwing Lego set.

So if your body years down the line needs to build new lego xwings (antibodies) then it can do so using the stored Lego xwing instruction sheet (T Cells).

Testing for the right T Cells is extremely complex lab work in comparison to testing for antibodies.

KJ

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Theres no future really is there we will be in this shit forever no matter what we are fucked no point living if you cant feel alive were in a jail of control forever

4 months immunity ?

"
thats what the news said

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"

There's a huge difference between antibodies and T Cells.

Imagine each virus needs a specific lego set to deal with it.

So covid19 needs an xwing fighter Lego set.

The antibodies that are built up in your system from your covid infection would be complete Lego xwings waiting in your system ready to go.

Longer term immunity comes from your T Cells the best way to think of them is if they are the specific instruction sheet from the xwing Lego set.

So if your body years down the line needs to build new lego xwings (antibodies) then it can do so using the stored Lego xwing instruction sheet (T Cells).

Testing for the right T Cells is extremely complex lab work in comparison to testing for antibodies.

KJ "
so will will get past this then you see this is the issue who do u believe

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

If the experts involved are uncertain about our immunity post-infection, then it's wrong for us to think that we know the exact level of immunity, as amateurs. Too little is known yet and immunity from vaccines can be very different to that acquired from an infection.

They've suggested for some time that multiple doses may be needed. Different vaccines may also show stronger immunity protection and for longer periods of time. We're still learning. There's another post on potentially the same news, via the BBC.

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By *eddy and legsCouple
over a year ago

the wetlands


"Theres no future really is there we will be in this shit forever no matter what we are fucked no point living if you cant feel alive were in a jail of control forever

4 months immunity ?

thats what the news said"

The human body is very adaptable we will overcome this one way or another.

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By *ir-spunk-alotMan
over a year ago

Southern England


"Theres no future really is there we will be in this shit forever no matter what we are fucked no point living if you cant feel alive were in a jail of control forever "

Mate, keep positive. There will be some form of a solution one way or another.

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By *urtleJRCouple
over a year ago

Ystradgynlais


"

There's a huge difference between antibodies and T Cells.

Imagine each virus needs a specific lego set to deal with it.

So covid19 needs an xwing fighter Lego set.

The antibodies that are built up in your system from your covid infection would be complete Lego xwings waiting in your system ready to go.

Longer term immunity comes from your T Cells the best way to think of them is if they are the specific instruction sheet from the xwing Lego set.

So if your body years down the line needs to build new lego xwings (antibodies) then it can do so using the stored Lego xwing instruction sheet (T Cells).

Testing for the right T Cells is extremely complex lab work in comparison to testing for antibodies.

KJ "

Not quite. B-cells are the antibody producing cells and responsible for long term immunity (the instruction book for your x wing fighter lego set).

T-cells have a different role, usually through detection of self and non-self proteins presented to it by another cell. So, you cell is infected with covid - the cell will make covid proteins and a T-cell may bind and ask to see these proteins (think of it like showing a passport). If the proteins are not 'self', the T cell with either kill the cell or flag it for killing.

Hence crossreactivity with other coronavirus strains.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

There's a huge difference between antibodies and T Cells.

Imagine each virus needs a specific lego set to deal with it.

So covid19 needs an xwing fighter Lego set.

The antibodies that are built up in your system from your covid infection would be complete Lego xwings waiting in your system ready to go.

Longer term immunity comes from your T Cells the best way to think of them is if they are the specific instruction sheet from the xwing Lego set.

So if your body years down the line needs to build new lego xwings (antibodies) then it can do so using the stored Lego xwing instruction sheet (T Cells).

Testing for the right T Cells is extremely complex lab work in comparison to testing for antibodies.

KJ

Not quite. B-cells are the antibody producing cells and responsible for long term immunity (the instruction book for your x wing fighter lego set).

T-cells have a different role, usually through detection of self and non-self proteins presented to it by another cell. So, you cell is infected with covid - the cell will make covid proteins and a T-cell may bind and ask to see these proteins (think of it like showing a passport). If the proteins are not 'self', the T cell with either kill the cell or flag it for killing.

Hence crossreactivity with other coronavirus strains. "

Thanks for the explanation much appreciated. The intricate nature of B Cells and T Cells isn't fully understand according to numerous papers so its nice to read an understandble explanation.

I think the media stance of its bad news, there is no immunity as antibodies are dissappearing after 4 months really isn't the full story by a country mile.

Sadly people like my parents have taken it as a message of doom and gloom tonight which given the way the media is presenting the story I'm not suprised.

KJ

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By *arry WindsorMan
over a year ago

Heaton Park Manchester


"

There's a huge difference between antibodies and T Cells.

Imagine each virus needs a specific lego set to deal with it.

So covid19 needs an xwing fighter Lego set.

The antibodies that are built up in your system from your covid infection would be complete Lego xwings waiting in your system ready to go.

Longer term immunity comes from your T Cells the best way to think of them is if they are the specific instruction sheet from the xwing Lego set.

So if your body years down the line needs to build new lego xwings (antibodies) then it can do so using the stored Lego xwing instruction sheet (T Cells).

Testing for the right T Cells is extremely complex lab work in comparison to testing for antibodies.

KJ

Not quite. B-cells are the antibody producing cells and responsible for long term immunity (the instruction book for your x wing fighter lego set).

T-cells have a different role, usually through detection of self and non-self proteins presented to it by another cell. So, you cell is infected with covid - the cell will make covid proteins and a T-cell may bind and ask to see these proteins (think of it like showing a passport). If the proteins are not 'self', the T cell with either kill the cell or flag it for killing.

Hence crossreactivity with other coronavirus strains. "

In one arrow! Bull's eye!

Well done. It makes a refreshing change .

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By *urtleJRCouple
over a year ago

Ystradgynlais


"Thanks for the explanation much appreciated. The intricate nature of B Cells and T Cells isn't fully understand according to numerous papers so its nice to read an understandble explanation.

I think the media stance of its bad news, there is no immunity as antibodies are dissappearing after 4 months really isn't the full story by a country mile.

Sadly people like my parents have taken it as a message of doom and gloom tonight which given the way the media is presenting the story I'm not suprised.

KJ"

The trouble is that although antibody levels will fall, that doesn't necessarily mean loss of immunity - T-cells will still bind and recognise infected cells and will cause a greater response due to familiarity with the viral protein. It may be a weaker response, but its still there.

In addition, there's some studies showing that those with a greater viral infection will produce higher antibody titres, hence the drop off may not occur: this is what we're hoping for with the vaccine.

So yeah, media reporting is scaremongering with this sudden susceptibility after 4 months. It's unfortunate, but it sells papers.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

There's a huge difference between antibodies and T Cells.

Imagine each virus needs a specific lego set to deal with it.

So covid19 needs an xwing fighter Lego set.

The antibodies that are built up in your system from your covid infection would be complete Lego xwings waiting in your system ready to go.

Longer term immunity comes from your T Cells the best way to think of them is if they are the specific instruction sheet from the xwing Lego set.

So if your body years down the line needs to build new lego xwings (antibodies) then it can do so using the stored Lego xwing instruction sheet (T Cells).

Testing for the right T Cells is extremely complex lab work in comparison to testing for antibodies.

KJ

Not quite. B-cells are the antibody producing cells and responsible for long term immunity (the instruction book for your x wing fighter lego set).

T-cells have a different role, usually through detection of self and non-self proteins presented to it by another cell. So, you cell is infected with covid - the cell will make covid proteins and a T-cell may bind and ask to see these proteins (think of it like showing a passport). If the proteins are not 'self', the T cell with either kill the cell or flag it for killing.

Hence crossreactivity with other coronavirus strains.

Thanks for the explanation much appreciated. The intricate nature of B Cells and T Cells isn't fully understand according to numerous papers so its nice to read an understandble explanation.

I think the media stance of its bad news, there is no immunity as antibodies are dissappearing after 4 months really isn't the full story by a country mile.

Sadly people like my parents have taken it as a message of doom and gloom tonight which given the way the media is presenting the story I'm not suprised.

KJ

"

Google NY Times article- "Why You Shouldn’t Worry About Studies Showing Waning Coronavirus Antibodies"

A ray of hope.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Theres no future really is there we will be in this shit forever no matter what we are fucked no point living if you cant feel alive were in a jail of control forever "

Oh dear. Time to pull your BIG BOY PANTS UP and get on with it like everyone else has to do. The whole world is suffering. At least you ARE ALIVE there are 60,000 who weren't so lucky just in this country alone.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West


"

There's a huge difference between antibodies and T Cells.

Imagine each virus needs a specific lego set to deal with it.

So covid19 needs an xwing fighter Lego set.

The antibodies that are built up in your system from your covid infection would be complete Lego xwings waiting in your system ready to go.

Longer term immunity comes from your T Cells the best way to think of them is if they are the specific instruction sheet from the xwing Lego set.

So if your body years down the line needs to build new lego xwings (antibodies) then it can do so using the stored Lego xwing instruction sheet (T Cells).

Testing for the right T Cells is extremely complex lab work in comparison to testing for antibodies.

KJ

Not quite. B-cells are the antibody producing cells and responsible for long term immunity (the instruction book for your x wing fighter lego set).

T-cells have a different role, usually through detection of self and non-self proteins presented to it by another cell. So, you cell is infected with covid - the cell will make covid proteins and a T-cell may bind and ask to see these proteins (think of it like showing a passport). If the proteins are not 'self', the T cell with either kill the cell or flag it for killing.

Hence crossreactivity with other coronavirus strains. "

T-helper cells (specific for antigen) are responsible for activating differentiation of naïve B-cells through the secretion of various cytokines. Mature (now specific) B-cells differentiate further into plasma cells (which make antibodies) and B-memory cells, which can be retained for a very long time, ready to rapidly differentiate into more specific plasma cells to remove a reinfection with the same antigen. T-cells can also form memory.

It takes many days after initial infection for the adaptive immune system (T and B cell responses) to activate upon first infection, but on subsequent reinfection or reactivation of a latent infection (eg herpesvirus), then all the original steps to form the specific T/B cells can be skipped and the body can start churning out specific antibodies very quickly. In most infections, so long as the antigen is minimally changed or unchanged, this reactivation of the T/B cells is quick enough and substantial enough to stop subsequent infections from causing overt symptoms.

Even if an antigen changes, if there is some broad similarity, you can get this cross-activation and some degree of adaptive immunity, despite it not being exactly the same as the original exposure. This seems to be possible in some cases with SARS-CoV-2, especially if a person was exposed to SARS-CoV or MERS, more so than other seasonal coronaviruses. Might explain a bit why the Far East and Middle East generally has lower infection and death rates, whereas Europeans have generally never been exposed to these linked coronaviruses.

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By *urtleJRCouple
over a year ago

Ystradgynlais


" T-helper cells (specific for antigen) are responsible for activating differentiation of naïve B-cells through the secretion of various cytokines. Mature (now specific) B-cells differentiate further into plasma cells (which make antibodies) and B-memory cells, which can be retained for a very long time, ready to rapidly differentiate into more specific plasma cells to remove a reinfection with the same antigen. T-cells can also form memory."

If I remember my immunology right, TFH CD4+ cells are generally accepted as B cell activators, along with certain cytokines that prime the cell for activation. Not all CD4+ T-cells can activate B-cells as very much dependent on expression of CD40.

But yes, for the most part, you're right on the rest. MHC class rearrangements on APCs allow for crossreactivity, thus that mild broad spectrum defense against similar epitope such as with SARS/MERS.

Either way, we're looking at there being a likely mechanism for defense longer than 4 months as stated by the press. Antibodies are not the only way to fight off a virus.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West


" T-helper cells (specific for antigen) are responsible for activating differentiation of naïve B-cells through the secretion of various cytokines. Mature (now specific) B-cells differentiate further into plasma cells (which make antibodies) and B-memory cells, which can be retained for a very long time, ready to rapidly differentiate into more specific plasma cells to remove a reinfection with the same antigen. T-cells can also form memory.

If I remember my immunology right, TFH CD4+ cells are generally accepted as B cell activators, along with certain cytokines that prime the cell for activation. Not all CD4+ T-cells can activate B-cells as very much dependent on expression of CD40.

But yes, for the most part, you're right on the rest. MHC class rearrangements on APCs allow for crossreactivity, thus that mild broad spectrum defense against similar epitope such as with SARS/MERS.

Either way, we're looking at there being a likely mechanism for defense longer than 4 months as stated by the press. Antibodies are not the only way to fight off a virus. "

Indeed - I didn't differentiate between subsets of T cell because the readership here is more generalist. Just trying to highlight the inseparable link between the role of T and B cells, as many commentators are talking about one or the other as if they are mutually exclusive. You're quite right that only CD4+ T-cells expressing the CD40 ligand activate maturation of B cells.

I think simple quoting of antibody levels X months after initial infection, ignoring the other ways in which immune memory is formed is unhelpful, as anyone other than people with pretty detailed immunological knowledge are taking it to mean that reduction in circulating antibodies after a few months = total disaster/vaccine won't work etc. When quite patently, it does not and if the papers/BBC reported the full conclusions of research studies, then they'd find the people drawing the conclusions already concluded this too

Too often, reading the original journal article against what a mainstream media outlet has reported has me seriously questioning if they've read the same thing, because they're often totally inaccurate or incomplete inferences are drawn.

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By *urtleJRCouple
over a year ago

Ystradgynlais


"Too often, reading the original journal article against what a mainstream media outlet has reported has me seriously questioning if they've read the same thing, because they're often totally inaccurate or incomplete inferences are drawn."

Its almost as if the media journalists just don't understand science and infer wrong conclusions to sell a story. As you say, reading the original papers, most often the conclusion is very much different from reported.

Glad to see another science nerd though.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West


"Too often, reading the original journal article against what a mainstream media outlet has reported has me seriously questioning if they've read the same thing, because they're often totally inaccurate or incomplete inferences are drawn.

Its almost as if the media journalists just don't understand science and infer wrong conclusions to sell a story. As you say, reading the original papers, most often the conclusion is very much different from reported.

Glad to see another science nerd though. "

Microbiology here - you? I have very fond memories of immunology lectures

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By *tsThatOneGuyMan
over a year ago

Here

Legitimate discussion about immunology on Fab? *Without* resorting to crude name calling!? Definitely a pleasant surprise :D

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By *urtleJRCouple
over a year ago

Ystradgynlais


"Microbiology here - you? I have very fond memories of immunology lectures "

Haem and flow cytometry. How're you holding up with workload? Dragged into virology for covid testing yet?

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West


"Microbiology here - you? I have very fond memories of immunology lectures

Haem and flow cytometry. How're you holding up with workload? Dragged into virology for covid testing yet? "

I'm now an FE/HE educator and manager but yes, have had a few invites to join the Covid labs. However, my day job has been insane so not been possible to take time away and they don't just want people working weekends (which I'd happily have done). I got an invite as a lab manager on Friday

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By *urtleJRCouple
over a year ago

Ystradgynlais


"I'm now an FE/HE educator and manager but yes, have had a few invites to join the Covid labs. However, my day job has been insane so not been possible to take time away and they don't just want people working weekends (which I'd happily have done). I got an invite as a lab manager on Friday "

Ah, from one overworked and underpaid profession to another. Keep fighting the good fight. Lab management is not a good place to be right now...

Perhaps we derail the topic. Perhaps a separate immunology science thread would be useful.

Thoughts on supposed "temporary" immunity in most people with regards B cell antibody status, and kawasaki like inflammatory response in others? Hypothetically, are these patients decent candidates for convalescent plasma donation?

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By *alandNitaCouple
over a year ago

Scunthorpe


"Theres no future really is there we will be in this shit forever no matter what we are fucked no point living if you cant feel alive were in a jail of control forever "

If the entire planet is vaccinated within 4 months, then its Game Over for the virus.

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By *oistknickersCouple
over a year ago

London


"

There's a huge difference between antibodies and T Cells.

Imagine each virus needs a specific lego set to deal with it.

So covid19 needs an xwing fighter Lego set.

The antibodies that are built up in your system from your covid infection would be complete Lego xwings waiting in your system ready to go.

Longer term immunity comes from your T Cells the best way to think of them is if they are the specific instruction sheet from the xwing Lego set.

So if your body years down the line needs to build new lego xwings (antibodies) then it can do so using the stored Lego xwing instruction sheet (T Cells).

Testing for the right T Cells is extremely complex lab work in comparison to testing for antibodies.

KJ "

Off topic here but I find it really interesting how people are so different on the site and forums, they vary from intelligent, caring and informative to belligerent arrogant, can’t spell or use punctuation, but we have at least one thing in common.

vive la difference.

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By *eddy and legsCouple
over a year ago

the wetlands


"Theres no future really is there we will be in this shit forever no matter what we are fucked no point living if you cant feel alive were in a jail of control forever

If the entire planet is vaccinated within 4 months, then its Game Over for the virus."

In the movies there's ALWAYS a "return of" or "revenge of"

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By *moothman2000Man
over a year ago

Leicestershire


"

In the movies there's ALWAYS a "return of" or "revenge of""

Virus II - this time it's personal...

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central


"

In the movies there's ALWAYS a "return of" or "revenge of"

Virus II - this time it's personal... "

Virus III - Stupidity Apocalypse

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

In the movies there's ALWAYS a "return of" or "revenge of"

Virus II - this time it's personal...

Virus III - Stupidity Apocalypse "

Isn't 'The revenge of covid' what we're living through now?

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By *alandNitaCouple
over a year ago

Scunthorpe


"

In the movies there's ALWAYS a "return of" or "revenge of"

Virus II - this time it's personal...

Virus III - Stupidity Apocalypse

Isn't 'The revenge of covid' what we're living through now? "

No... there has been no heroic defeat of the virus yet. There can't be a sequel until the first story is over.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

In the movies there's ALWAYS a "return of" or "revenge of"

Virus II - this time it's personal...

Virus III - Stupidity Apocalypse

Isn't 'The revenge of covid' what we're living through now?

No... there has been no heroic defeat of the virus yet. There can't be a sequel until the first story is over. "

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Daughter is a Medical Microbiologist, working in a hospital path lab, caught virus. Confirmed. Ill for 3 weeks quite poorly. Back at work they did antibody tests, none?......

Niece works as a genetics professor, Clever girl, working on Viruses at the moment, tells us virus good for 4 months for 99.5% of people given it so far. That's the time they have tested, cannot tell us more, as haven't had the time to test it further this is why Vaccines take so long to produce normally.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

There's a huge difference between antibodies and T Cells.

Imagine each virus needs a specific lego set to deal with it.

So covid19 needs an xwing fighter Lego set.

The antibodies that are built up in your system from your covid infection would be complete Lego xwings waiting in your system ready to go.

Longer term immunity comes from your T Cells the best way to think of them is if they are the specific instruction sheet from the xwing Lego set.

So if your body years down the line needs to build new lego xwings (antibodies) then it can do so using the stored Lego xwing instruction sheet (T Cells).

Testing for the right T Cells is extremely complex lab work in comparison to testing for antibodies.

KJ "

It's a bit of a political football as scientists are clearly not in agreement over T-cell working with covid. From my limited understanding of it, T-cells should prevent reinfection, but they doesn't seem to be effective in the covid virus family for reasons I don't understand.

From React-2 tests, one of the largest done in the UK by Imperial College London.

"Jonathan Ball, professor of molecular virology at Nottingham university, said that while the React-2 study “confirms suspicions” about waning immunity in elderly populations, it is less clear what the relationship is between declining immunity and susceptibility to reinfection."

"Prof Barclay, however, disagreed that T-cells — believed to fight off infection after antibodies wane — would have much impact on overall immunity. “The fact that people get reinfected by seasonal coronaviruses suggests that T-cell mediation probably isn’t very long-lasting,” she said."

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West


"

In the movies there's ALWAYS a "return of" or "revenge of"

Virus II - this time it's personal...

Virus III - Stupidity Apocalypse

Isn't 'The revenge of covid' what we're living through now? "

No, were on Episode VI: Return of the Virus

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West


"

In the movies there's ALWAYS a "return of" or "revenge of"

Virus II - this time it's personal...

Virus III - Stupidity Apocalypse

Isn't 'The revenge of covid' what we're living through now?

No, were on Episode VI: Return of the Virus "

*we're

Bloody fat fingers before I get arrested by the grammar police

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

In the movies there's ALWAYS a "return of" or "revenge of"

Virus II - this time it's personal...

Virus III - Stupidity Apocalypse

Isn't 'The revenge of covid' what we're living through now?

No, were on Episode VI: Return of the Virus

*we're

Bloody fat fingers before I get arrested by the grammar police "

Wash your hands!!

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West


"

In the movies there's ALWAYS a "return of" or "revenge of"

Virus II - this time it's personal...

Virus III - Stupidity Apocalypse

Isn't 'The revenge of covid' what we're living through now?

No, were on Episode VI: Return of the Virus

*we're

Bloody fat fingers before I get arrested by the grammar police

Wash your hands!!

"

I sang Feliz Cumpleaños x3. Is that right?

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By *llabouttheladyMan
over a year ago

Wakefield

The thing is, the Imperial College / Ipsos Moro haven’t tested the same 100,000 people 3 times in this study.

They sent out a random 100k, got a result

A few weeks later they sent out another random 100k, got a different result

A few weeks after that they sent out a third random 100k, guess what, they got a different result . This time it was lower than the previous 2 studies, hence we got hit with the doom and gloom yesterday.

The trial is to identify the level of antibodies in the population and because the statistical level has dropped they are suggesting people are losing antibodies over time.

Utter bollocks if you ask me.

What I do know is that my partners friend got Covid in early February and still tests positive for antibodies now.

That’s a better indicator for me and my sanity.

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By *orwegian BlueMan
over a year ago

Iceland, but Aldi is closer..


"

There's a huge difference between antibodies and T Cells.

Imagine each virus needs a specific lego set to deal with it.

So covid19 needs an xwing fighter Lego set.

The antibodies that are built up in your system from your covid infection would be complete Lego xwings waiting in your system ready to go.

Longer term immunity comes from your T Cells the best way to think of them is if they are the specific instruction sheet from the xwing Lego set.

So if your body years down the line needs to build new lego xwings (antibodies) then it can do so using the stored Lego xwing instruction sheet (T Cells).

Testing for the right T Cells is extremely complex lab work in comparison to testing for antibodies.

KJ "

I am sure that what you have described is similar to what I learnt at school in biology, barring the Lego and x-wings.

As I'm an old bastard, this obviously cannot be anything new and I'm sure my biology teacher, bless his cotton Welsh socks,was not privy to cutting edge research that has yet to be released.

So is it just another slow news week with over sensationalism of what is a pretty boring and probably expected bit of scientific news.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What a great thread. Nice to read a sensible, well informed discussion for a change. Thanks

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The thing is, the Imperial College / Ipsos Moro haven’t tested the same 100,000 people 3 times in this study.

They sent out a random 100k, got a result

A few weeks later they sent out another random 100k, got a different result

A few weeks after that they sent out a third random 100k, guess what, they got a different result . This time it was lower than the previous 2 studies, hence we got hit with the doom and gloom yesterday.

The trial is to identify the level of antibodies in the population and because the statistical level has dropped they are suggesting people are losing antibodies over time.

Utter bollocks if you ask me.

What I do know is that my partners friend got Covid in early February and still tests positive for antibodies now.

That’s a better indicator for me and my sanity.

"

Statistics are mostly bollocks.

Test the same set of people over time.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

There's a huge difference between antibodies and T Cells.

Imagine each virus needs a specific lego set to deal with it.

So covid19 needs an xwing fighter Lego set.

The antibodies that are built up in your system from your covid infection would be complete Lego xwings waiting in your system ready to go.

Longer term immunity comes from your T Cells the best way to think of them is if they are the specific instruction sheet from the xwing Lego set.

So if your body years down the line needs to build new lego xwings (antibodies) then it can do so using the stored Lego xwing instruction sheet (T Cells).

Testing for the right T Cells is extremely complex lab work in comparison to testing for antibodies.

KJ

Not quite. B-cells are the antibody producing cells and responsible for long term immunity (the instruction book for your x wing fighter lego set).

T-cells have a different role, usually through detection of self and non-self proteins presented to it by another cell. So, you cell is infected with covid - the cell will make covid proteins and a T-cell may bind and ask to see these proteins (think of it like showing a passport). If the proteins are not 'self', the T cell with either kill the cell or flag it for killing.

Hence crossreactivity with other coronavirus strains. "

Interesting. I still marvel at the workings of our bodies.

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By *urtleJRCouple
over a year ago

Ystradgynlais


"It's a bit of a political football as scientists are clearly not in agreement over T-cell working with covid. From my limited understanding of it, T-cells should prevent reinfection, but they doesn't seem to be effective in the covid virus family for reasons I don't understand."

As was hinted in the study, remember that T cell function decreases with age. So are we seeing T cells lose their effectiveness against covid, or are we seeing general T cell deterioration? There's a very subtle but important difference here.

In addition, T cell immunity is predominantly based on antigen presentation. So if the coronavirus shows an antigen and that antigen changes due to mutations as the strain gets around, you're going to get decreased immunity. As opposed to, say, the current idea of the SPIKE protein that may not change and is thus a more effective target for T cells.

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By *urtleJRCouple
over a year ago

Ystradgynlais


" Statistics are mostly bollocks.

Test the same set of people over time. "

By testing different people, you're controlling for individual variation (I.e a person's diet or genetics or whatever) affecting the result. With a big enough population being tested, you minimise the person-to-person variation also.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The thing is, the Imperial College / Ipsos Moro haven’t tested the same 100,000 people 3 times in this study.

They sent out a random 100k, got a result

A few weeks later they sent out another random 100k, got a different result

A few weeks after that they sent out a third random 100k, guess what, they got a different result . This time it was lower than the previous 2 studies, hence we got hit with the doom and gloom yesterday.

The trial is to identify the level of antibodies in the population and because the statistical level has dropped they are suggesting people are losing antibodies over time.

Utter bollocks if you ask me.

What I do know is that my partners friend got Covid in early February and still tests positive for antibodies now.

That’s a better indicator for me and my sanity.

"

Can you quote your source please.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West


"I'm now an FE/HE educator and manager but yes, have had a few invites to join the Covid labs. However, my day job has been insane so not been possible to take time away and they don't just want people working weekends (which I'd happily have done). I got an invite as a lab manager on Friday

Ah, from one overworked and underpaid profession to another. Keep fighting the good fight. Lab management is not a good place to be right now...

Perhaps we derail the topic. Perhaps a separate immunology science thread would be useful.

Thoughts on supposed "temporary" immunity in most people with regards B cell antibody status, and kawasaki like inflammatory response in others? Hypothetically, are these patients decent candidates for convalescent plasma donation? "

One thing I was reading about convalescent plasma donation, on a linked but also separate point, is that obviously, plasma donation is mostly used to graft platelets in those requiring them due to clotting disorders. There's some limited evidence that convalescent plasma in Covid patients might increase (in some people) the risk of thrombosis, because of the impact of platelets. We now know Covid is as much a cardiovascular disease as it is respiratory and so this might be significant.

On the question you asked, I really don't know, I don't have enough information (any ideas for reading sources?) It would theoretically make sense that people with disorders of B cell response/inappropriate/ insufficient antibody response may benefit from convalescent plasma donation, but perhaps isolated immune factors might more appropriate? I'm also interested in the retraining of the atopic immune response through things like exposure to wormy infection/antigen to push the response away from the IgE autoimmune/ inflammatory response.

Biology is wonderful

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By *urtleJRCouple
over a year ago

Ystradgynlais


"One thing I was reading about convalescent plasma donation, on a linked but also separate point, is that obviously, plasma donation is mostly used to graft platelets in those requiring them due to clotting disorders. There's some limited evidence that convalescent plasma in Covid patients might increase (in some people) the risk of thrombosis, because of the impact of platelets. We now know Covid is as much a cardiovascular disease as it is respiratory and so this might be significant."

From what I gather as part of RECOVERY trial and such, the patients being treated with convalescent plasma are the milder COVID+ patients, so are at a lower risk of thrombotic events. I'd have to reread the trial inclusion criteria, particularly as to whether there's a requirement to have a low d-dimer result or other fibrinolytic index in order to stratify risk, but it's a weird one. Severe COVID causes both thrombosis and may end with DIC, so a difficult one - grafting extra platelets is more useful in DIC, not thrombosis. Will be interesting to see the results of REMAP-CAP trial for these.

One of the big analyser companies had a research section filled with recent papers, I'll see if I can dig it out for you.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West


"One thing I was reading about convalescent plasma donation, on a linked but also separate point, is that obviously, plasma donation is mostly used to graft platelets in those requiring them due to clotting disorders. There's some limited evidence that convalescent plasma in Covid patients might increase (in some people) the risk of thrombosis, because of the impact of platelets. We now know Covid is as much a cardiovascular disease as it is respiratory and so this might be significant.

From what I gather as part of RECOVERY trial and such, the patients being treated with convalescent plasma are the milder COVID+ patients, so are at a lower risk of thrombotic events. I'd have to reread the trial inclusion criteria, particularly as to whether there's a requirement to have a low d-dimer result or other fibrinolytic index in order to stratify risk, but it's a weird one. Severe COVID causes both thrombosis and may end with DIC, so a difficult one - grafting extra platelets is more useful in DIC, not thrombosis. Will be interesting to see the results of REMAP-CAP trial for these.

One of the big analyser companies had a research section filled with recent papers, I'll see if I can dig it out for you. "

I'm interested on a personal level too. I had very mild Covid in early April but my d-dimer was raised at recent testing. I did have surgery but almost 12wks ago now, and it wasn't extensive, so any raised d-dimer due to this should be settled now.

I also read about the SARS-CoV-2 virus activating anti thrombolytic pathways, so perhaps an interesting therapeutic avenue because issues of coagulation and of the wider cardiovascular system seem to widespread in Covid. Cardiovascular disease (incl. diabetes in this category) seems to be the most prominent risk factor for negative outcome, after age.

All and any papers on the topic gratefully received

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By *urtleJRCouple
over a year ago

Ystradgynlais

Another trial ongoing is the use of prophylactic apixaban in COVID+ patie ts for exactly that - stopping the thrombophilia pathways and coag cascades from running away uncontrollably.

Sorry to hear about your infection and op. Yeah, ddimer should be gone, potential for long term sequelae secondary to infection? Possible. Interesting avenue of research if this is a noted long term thing in other patients. How would that predispose to thrombosis in other affected risk groups like cardiovasc, antiphospholipid syndrome, etc?

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West


"Another trial ongoing is the use of prophylactic apixaban in COVID+ patie ts for exactly that - stopping the thrombophilia pathways and coag cascades from running away uncontrollably.

Sorry to hear about your infection and op. Yeah, ddimer should be gone, potential for long term sequelae secondary to infection? Possible. Interesting avenue of research if this is a noted long term thing in other patients. How would that predispose to thrombosis in other affected risk groups like cardiovasc, antiphospholipid syndrome, etc? "

Do you mind if I take the d-dimer convo to PM? It's getting a bit niche

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By *urtleJRCouple
over a year ago

Ystradgynlais

By all means!

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By *eddy and legsCouple
over a year ago

the wetlands

[Removed by poster at 28/10/20 21:44:57]

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By *llabouttheladyMan
over a year ago

Wakefield

Here is the info

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/institute-of-global-health-innovation/MEDRXIV-2020-219725v1-Elliott.pdf

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West


"Here is the info

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/institute-of-global-health-innovation/MEDRXIV-2020-219725v1-Elliott.pdf

"

Something that's become prevalent in this pandemic is the authoritative quotation of pre-print journal articles that are yet to be peer reviewed. This is another one. This is why we have had hoo-haa about other trials suddenly changing their minds about the interpretation of their data, eg Gilead's initial results on their remdesivir trial done in China, which was eventually withdrawn when holes were picked in it AFTER the media had started reporting on the pre-print. Their study design has been panned by peer reviewers, who called it poorly designed and now a much wider (but poorly designed) trial called SOLIDARITY has also failed to show it is effective, yet the media has been touting this as the Holy Grail since April.

Basically, scientific research takes time. Yes, it's Imperial College, but Andrew Wakefield worked for the hospital arm of UCL (University College Hospital) yet he was certainly not acting appropriately or publishing anything valid. Look where that left us.

I'm a scientist and I'll be reserving judgement until a) things are peer reviewed AND b) more than one study comes to the same conclusion.

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By *llabouttheladyMan
over a year ago

Wakefield

As I said

Bollocks

Bollocks supported by the more recent bollocks that 100k are getting Covid per day.

Looks good on BBC News though

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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago

yumsville

If this is the level of conversation found in a thread on Fab, imagine the data sharing trying to get the world back to health. This is the most reassuring thread I've come across in a long while.

There's human trials in less than 10 months and for the most, the science or speed at which those medicines are being arrived at is largely not understood or appreciated.

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By *he-Hosiery-GentMan
over a year ago

Older Hot Bearded Guy


"Theres no future really is there we will be in this shit forever no matter what we are fucked no point living if you cant feel alive were in a jail of control forever

4 months immunity ?

thats what the news said"

So, it must be true then when the mainstream media say it

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No vaccine and no case of once had cant get again is ever 100% effective against infection...but the chances of getting any virus a 2nd time having been infected or after vaccination is massively reduced. No virus in history has the effect where it remains virilant enough to re-infect everyone without it mutating has ever occurred. The common cold is covid related and there are literally 1000s of strains same as flu..it mutates almost every year..

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