Join us FREE, we're FREE to use
Web's largest swingers site since 2006.
Already registered?
Login here
Join us FREE, we're FREE to use
Web's largest swingers site since 2006.
Already registered?
Login here
 | Back to forum list |
| Back to Virus |
| Jump to newest |  |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Are young people villain's or heroes by trying to lead a normal life and mixing with their peers and in doing so establishing and building herd immunity. Which of course is mother nature's vaccine. " the best vaccine there is! it's got us this far so far! | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Heard the other day that young people refer to it as “the boomer remover “, in that it will kill off the baby boomer generation." Really!  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Heard the other day that young people refer to it as “the boomer remover “, in that it will kill off the baby boomer generation. Really! "Yep - little tinkers. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Are young people villain's or heroes by trying to lead a normal life and mixing with their peers and in doing so establishing and building herd immunity. Which of course is mother nature's vaccine. " Mother nature is of course correct. In nature a disease like this would be localised to a certain area and those inhabitants would build up immunity. In a natural world a person in Wuhan wouldn't be transferring a virus to Northern Italy 24 hours later. Disease was necessary in old times to stop populations exceeding what their environment could sustain. We live in a modern world with mechanised food production, so I don't think the rules of nature apply. We have medicine. We just need to wait for it to be deployed. I don't think this has anything to do with an ultruistic need to save the human race. It is more a case of some people having fun at the expense of others. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Heard the other day that young people refer to it as “the boomer remover “, in that it will kill off the baby boomer generation. Really!
Yep - little tinkers. "Don't think of Dominic Cummings as a young person.... but yes he did use words to that effect (allegedly). | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Heard the other day that young people refer to it as “the boomer remover “, in that it will kill off the baby boomer generation. Really!
Yep - little tinkers. "I like their style. I shall drop this into conversation whenever possible  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"They're neither. At the moment I think they're probably scape goats. " I agree | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
 | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Heard the other day that young people refer to it as “the boomer remover “, in that it will kill off the baby boomer generation. Really!
Yep - little tinkers.
Don't think of Dominic Cummings as a young person.... but yes he did use words to that effect (allegedly)."Ah it's a DC quote is it. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Heard the other day that young people refer to it as “the boomer remover “, in that it will kill off the baby boomer generation. Really!
Yep - little tinkers.
Don't think of Dominic Cummings as a young person.... but yes he did use words to that effect (allegedly).
Ah it's a DC quote is it. "Nope. Not a quote. That's why I said "words to that affect". He denies he said "let the old people die" but I would be astonished if he admitted to it. I guess we will never know. All we have to go by is what happened next... 20 000 CH deaths, the "eye test" fiasco... | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Heard the other day that young people refer to it as “the boomer remover “, in that it will kill off the baby boomer generation. Really!
Yep - little tinkers.
Don't think of Dominic Cummings as a young person.... but yes he did use words to that effect (allegedly).
Ah it's a DC quote is it.
Nope. Not a quote. That's why I said "words to that affect". He denies he said "let the old people die" but I would be astonished if he admitted to it.
I guess we will never know. All we have to go by is what happened next... 20 000 CH deaths, the "eye test" fiasco..."Ah, ok, understood.  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I'm assuming that the attempt for herd immunity was humour. Everyone has their needs and wants and we've usually managed to become fairly well socially adjusted individuals through secondary school, as maturity develops, albeit with adolescents not acquiring fuller brain maturity for a few years. We've generally accepted and learned to control ourselves, our drives etc, to be socially responsible. Younger people may have more opportunities to get out and about and generally have been conforming within the rules. They're not subject to the same levels of injury and deaths that older people are and this probably helps to drive some poorer judgment. I'd hope that parents are doing everything they can to limit their children from increasing the risks for the country. It's obviously right to ensure that no group feels victimised, as we need everyone to accept responsibility and not to opt out. " My understanding is that a lot of people testing positive right now are young people. I think is a cheek for people to deliberately and willfully put the lives of others at risk and then have the gall to cry victim. I grew up in a country where young people were conscripted to do a year of national service. That was a year of your life you basically put on hold. Today's youngsters have freedoms that no generations before them ever enjoyed. Those freedoms did not come without people suffering and sacrificing for. It is those same WWII survivors who we are throwing under the bus. We salute them on Remembrance Day but put our fun before their lives without a moments thought. Do you remember clapping for the NHS on Thursdays? It's the same virus and it's putting those same NHS workers at risk. But now for some reason it's OK... | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"These so called selfish young people enjoying themselves are the same young men and women that are sent to war to fight and die to protect the old and infirmed. Which section of society are the selfish ones then? " Eh are we at war now too? This really is a lousy year. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"These so called selfish young people enjoying themselves are the same young men and women that are sent to war to fight and die to protect the old and infirmed. Which section of society are the selfish ones then? Eh are we at war now too? This really is a lousy year." In a way you could say we are, (corvid war) but in this war it is the old and infirmed that may die not the young. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"These so called selfish young people enjoying themselves are the same young men and women that are sent to war to fight and die to protect the old and infirmed. Which section of society are the selfish ones then? " I don't think the old and infirm worry about being the victim of a terror attack or foreign invasion as much as the are concerned about dying a horrible death because some youngster couldn't wait 6 months to enjoy themselves. So you don't think it's selfish to say "I don't care if you die. I want to have fun"? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Are young people villain's or heroes by trying to lead a normal life and mixing with their peers and in doing so establishing and building herd immunity. Which of course is mother nature's vaccine. Mother nature is of course correct. In nature a disease like this would be localised to a certain area and those inhabitants would build up immunity. In a natural world a person in Wuhan wouldn't be transferring a virus to Northern Italy 24 hours later. Disease was necessary in old times to stop populations exceeding what their environment could sustain. We live in a modern world with mechanised food production, so I don't think the rules of nature apply. We have medicine. We just need to wait for it to be deployed. I don't think this has anything to do with an ultruistic need to save the human race. It is more a case of some people having fun at the expense of others." Agree, herd immunity can only be achieved in the context of an efficient vaccine, to say it’s mothers vaccine is stripping all meaning from the concept of herd immunity. Herd immunity protects vulnerable people. Letting vulnerable people die willingly to "get deaths out of the way faster" is NOT herd immunity, it's eugenics. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Are young people villain's or heroes by trying to lead a normal life and mixing with their peers and in doing so establishing and building herd immunity. Which of course is mother nature's vaccine. Mother nature is of course correct. In nature a disease like this would be localised to a certain area and those inhabitants would build up immunity. In a natural world a person in Wuhan wouldn't be transferring a virus to Northern Italy 24 hours later. Disease was necessary in old times to stop populations exceeding what their environment could sustain. We live in a modern world with mechanised food production, so I don't think the rules of nature apply. We have medicine. We just need to wait for it to be deployed. I don't think this has anything to do with an ultruistic need to save the human race. It is more a case of some people having fun at the expense of others. Agree, herd immunity can only be achieved in the context of an efficient vaccine, to say it’s mothers vaccine is stripping all meaning from the concept of herd immunity. Herd immunity protects vulnerable people. Letting vulnerable people die willingly to "get deaths out of the way faster" is NOT herd immunity, it's eugenics." | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I did a calculation at the beginning of this outbreak that showed with rate of infection we we seeing then, it would take 37 years for us to achieve 80% required for herd immunity. These infections WILL filter through to the elderly and with 12 million people in the UK over the age of 65, how many lives do you think they are putting at risk? We are told there will be a vaccine in early 2021, so how many people need to die because others aren't prepared to wait?" Who said there would be a vaccine.? I'm not assuming that given there never has been for a coronavirus... Bit of a leap of faith to assume we will definitely find one for this. They aren't all out on the piss. Some of them are trying really hard to get to uni and have a life they've worked hard for for the last 15 years. At uni they will not come into contact with their elderly relatives or their parents. Mostly just other students. Some absolutely are villains... Some absolutely are heroes and some are just trying to do their best in the circumstances. When everyone else is behaving perfectly... Sure take a shot at them but to do so now is not helpful. There are so called villains in all ages. Just need more people to do the right thing... | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"These so called selfish young people enjoying themselves are the same young men and women that are sent to war to fight and die to protect the old and infirmed. Which section of society are the selfish ones then? Eh are we at war now too? This really is a lousy year.In a way you could say we are, (corvid war) but in this war it is the old and infirmed that may die not the young. " How can young people say they are defending the old and infirmed when it is young people mainly perpetuating this "war"? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I did a calculation at the beginning of this outbreak that showed with rate of infection we we seeing then, it would take 37 years for us to achieve 80% required for herd immunity. These infections WILL filter through to the elderly and with 12 million people in the UK over the age of 65, how many lives do you think they are putting at risk? We are told there will be a vaccine in early 2021, so how many people need to die because others aren't prepared to wait?" . Love it. So we put all of normal life on hold because you’ve heard there is a vaccine coming. Funny i remember back in the early seventies reading that the vaccine for the common cold would soon be available. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I did a calculation at the beginning of this outbreak that showed with rate of infection we we seeing then, it would take 37 years for us to achieve 80% required for herd immunity. These infections WILL filter through to the elderly and with 12 million people in the UK over the age of 65, how many lives do you think they are putting at risk? We are told there will be a vaccine in early 2021, so how many people need to die because others aren't prepared to wait? Who said there would be a vaccine.? I'm not assuming that given there never has been for a coronavirus... Bit of a leap of faith to assume we will definitely find one for this. They aren't all out on the piss. Some of them are trying really hard to get to uni and have a life they've worked hard for for the last 15 years. At uni they will not come into contact with their elderly relatives or their parents. Mostly just other students. Some absolutely are villains... Some absolutely are heroes and some are just trying to do their best in the circumstances. When everyone else is behaving perfectly... Sure take a shot at them but to do so now is not helpful. There are so called villains in all ages. Just need more people to do the right thing... " I think we are talking about young people as a demographic, not as individuals. But to answer your question. The Oxford University together with AstraZeneca is confident that they will have a vaccine by early 2021. There are other companies in this race too. In Russia there is already a vaccine. So our youngsters are not being asked to put their lives on hold forever. In terms of sacrifices that have been asked of young people through the ages, it's miniscule. My father was studying in Uni in France when Hitler invaded Poland. He sacrificed 6 years of his life to keep Nazi boots off English shores. He never completed his studies and as such his life was for ever changed. BUT I never heard him bitch about it once... and here we are whining about one year of inconvenience. I think we've forgotten what a hero is. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"These so called selfish young people enjoying themselves are the same young men and women that are sent to war to fight and die to protect the old and infirmed. Which section of society are the selfish ones then? Eh are we at war now too? This really is a lousy year.In a way you could say we are, (corvid war) but in this war it is the old and infirmed that may die not the young. How can young people say they are defending the old and infirmed when it is young people mainly perpetuating this "war"?" You could lock us all up until the cows home it would do no good. Mother nature is driving this war and unfortunately the old and infirmed are the collaterally damage. It does not matter what you do if your name is on the bullet it will find you. To say it is been perpetuated by the younger generation is unfair. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I did a calculation at the beginning of this outbreak that showed with rate of infection we we seeing then, it would take 37 years for us to achieve 80% required for herd immunity. These infections WILL filter through to the elderly and with 12 million people in the UK over the age of 65, how many lives do you think they are putting at risk? We are told there will be a vaccine in early 2021, so how many people need to die because others aren't prepared to wait?. Love it. So we put all of normal life on hold because you’ve heard there is a vaccine coming. Funny i remember back in the early seventies reading that the vaccine for the common cold would soon be available. " The progress with the Chaddox vaccine is out there for anyone interested in knowing the truth. They started production of the vaccine months ago so the day we get the green light we can start vaccinations. What I am seeing here is people providing themselves an alternate reality to justify their selfish behaviour. To say there will never be a vaccine flies in the face of all the information we are being given. While we may not be able to do everything we could in January, to say we need to "put our lives on hold" is another exaggeration to justify not following the rules. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"These so called selfish young people enjoying themselves are the same young men and women that are sent to war to fight and die to protect the old and infirmed. Which section of society are the selfish ones then? Eh are we at war now too? This really is a lousy year.In a way you could say we are, (corvid war) but in this war it is the old and infirmed that may die not the young. How can young people say they are defending the old and infirmed when it is young people mainly perpetuating this "war"? You could lock us all up until the cows home it would do no good. Mother nature is driving this war and unfortunately the old and infirmed are the collaterally damage. It does not matter what you do if your name is on the bullet it will find you. To say it is been perpetuated by the younger generation is unfair. " Perhaps you have not seen the waterpark festival pictures from Wuhan where thousands of people congregated without Covid-19 fears? This is an example of how a society pulled together and bit the bullet while they pulled off the bandaid. We have prolonged restrictions solely because our adherence to the rules has been half hearted. The same people who are bitching about restrictions are the same selfish people who make them necessary. There are those of us who have religiously obeyed the rules and have to suffer because others felt too entitled to have those rules apply to them. So sorry if we find those rule breakers to be selfish. Since the dawn of time man has handled the spread if disease through isolation. It's only now in the modern age that people in countries used to "soft" living that we don't have the backbone to do what it takes to get Covid-19 behind us. How many times do people have to be told there is a vaccine in production as we speak? It's like putting you hands over your ears because you don't want to hear a truth that breaks down your argument. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Are young people villain's or heroes by trying to lead a normal life and mixing with their peers and in doing so establishing and building herd immunity. Which of course is mother nature's vaccine. Mother nature is of course correct. In nature a disease like this would be localised to a certain area and those inhabitants would build up immunity. In a natural world a person in Wuhan wouldn't be transferring a virus to Northern Italy 24 hours later. Disease was necessary in old times to stop populations exceeding what their environment could sustain. We live in a modern world with mechanised food production, so I don't think the rules of nature apply. We have medicine. We just need to wait for it to be deployed. I don't think this has anything to do with an ultruistic need to save the human race. It is more a case of some people having fun at the expense of others." while its not necessarily something i fully agree with, your point about mother nature and disease being required to reduce population raises for me the idea of why would this be an olden times thing only? why doesn’t it still apply in an over populated planet where we live a life of industrialisation that the planet cannot sustain its a hard balance in my head to justify any deaths, but at the same time i think its egotistical of us to think that just because we have medicine we are entitled to survive this, as though by creating modern medicine we have gotten smarter than mother nature and we have the control now ... of course we continue to try to save lives as much as possible, its the humane thing to do, but we might find that unfortunately mother nature has out smarted us this time | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Are young people villain's or heroes by trying to lead a normal life and mixing with their peers and in doing so establishing and building herd immunity. Which of course is mother nature's vaccine. Mother nature is of course correct. In nature a disease like this would be localised to a certain area and those inhabitants would build up immunity. In a natural world a person in Wuhan wouldn't be transferring a virus to Northern Italy 24 hours later. Disease was necessary in old times to stop populations exceeding what their environment could sustain. We live in a modern world with mechanised food production, so I don't think the rules of nature apply. We have medicine. We just need to wait for it to be deployed. I don't think this has anything to do with an ultruistic need to save the human race. It is more a case of some people having fun at the expense of others. while its not necessarily something i fully agree with, your point about mother nature and disease being required to reduce population raises for me the idea of why would this be an olden times thing only? why doesn’t it still apply in an over populated planet where we live a life of industrialisation that the planet cannot sustain its a hard balance in my head to justify any deaths, but at the same time i think its egotistical of us to think that just because we have medicine we are entitled to survive this, as though by creating modern medicine we have gotten smarter than mother nature and we have the control now ... of course we continue to try to save lives as much as possible, its the humane thing to do, but we might find that unfortunately mother nature has out smarted us this time " You have a really valid point in that decreasing the human population is in the best interests of the human race as well as the planet we are so successfully destroying. But I would like to see that come about through natural attrition and responsible family planning rather than the needless pain and suffering of people who did nothing personally to deserve this. Nearly a million people have died from this virus, but as a percentage of the 7.7 billion people on this planet it's a negligible dent. As someone mentioned earlier we are talking eugenics here. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Are young people villain's or heroes by trying to lead a normal life and mixing with their peers and in doing so establishing and building herd immunity. Which of course is mother nature's vaccine. Mother nature is of course correct. In nature a disease like this would be localised to a certain area and those inhabitants would build up immunity. In a natural world a person in Wuhan wouldn't be transferring a virus to Northern Italy 24 hours later. Disease was necessary in old times to stop populations exceeding what their environment could sustain. We live in a modern world with mechanised food production, so I don't think the rules of nature apply. We have medicine. We just need to wait for it to be deployed. I don't think this has anything to do with an ultruistic need to save the human race. It is more a case of some people having fun at the expense of others. while its not necessarily something i fully agree with, your point about mother nature and disease being required to reduce population raises for me the idea of why would this be an olden times thing only? why doesn’t it still apply in an over populated planet where we live a life of industrialisation that the planet cannot sustain its a hard balance in my head to justify any deaths, but at the same time i think its egotistical of us to think that just because we have medicine we are entitled to survive this, as though by creating modern medicine we have gotten smarter than mother nature and we have the control now ... of course we continue to try to save lives as much as possible, its the humane thing to do, but we might find that unfortunately mother nature has out smarted us this time You have a really valid point in that decreasing the human population is in the best interests of the human race as well as the planet we are so successfully destroying. But I would like to see that come about through natural attrition and responsible family planning rather than the needless pain and suffering of people who did nothing personally to deserve this. Nearly a million people have died from this virus, but as a percentage of the 7.7 billion people on this planet it's a negligible dent. As someone mentioned earlier we are talking eugenics here." How is this virus going to improve the genetic stock of the human race ? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I did a calculation at the beginning of this outbreak that showed with rate of infection we we seeing then, it would take 37 years for us to achieve 80% required for herd immunity. These infections WILL filter through to the elderly and with 12 million people in the UK over the age of 65, how many lives do you think they are putting at risk? We are told there will be a vaccine in early 2021, so how many people need to die because others aren't prepared to wait? Who said there would be a vaccine.? I'm not assuming that given there never has been for a coronavirus... Bit of a leap of faith to assume we will definitely find one for this. They aren't all out on the piss. Some of them are trying really hard to get to uni and have a life they've worked hard for for the last 15 years. At uni they will not come into contact with their elderly relatives or their parents. Mostly just other students. Some absolutely are villains... Some absolutely are heroes and some are just trying to do their best in the circumstances. When everyone else is behaving perfectly... Sure take a shot at them but to do so now is not helpful. There are so called villains in all ages. Just need more people to do the right thing... I think we are talking about young people as a demographic, not as individuals. But to answer your question. The Oxford University together with AstraZeneca is confident that they will have a vaccine by early 2021. There are other companies in this race too. In Russia there is already a vaccine. So our youngsters are not being asked to put their lives on hold forever. In terms of sacrifices that have been asked of young people through the ages, it's miniscule. My father was studying in Uni in France when Hitler invaded Poland. He sacrificed 6 years of his life to keep Nazi boots off English shores. He never completed his studies and as such his life was for ever changed. BUT I never heard him bitch about it once... and here we are whining about one year of inconvenience. I think we've forgotten what a hero is." Absolutely agree and I do also trot out the... Monty python 4 Yorkshire men sketch... You never had it so good... Trouble is we are a million miles away from that type of understanding and sacrifice across our general populace. There are some truly heroic folks but generally being asked to sit on a couch and stay out of trouble seems to be too much to ask of some folks. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"These so called selfish young people enjoying themselves are the same young men and women that are sent to war to fight and die to protect the old and infirmed. Which section of society are the selfish ones then? Eh are we at war now too? This really is a lousy year.In a way you could say we are, (corvid war) but in this war it is the old and infirmed that may die not the young. How can young people say they are defending the old and infirmed when it is young people mainly perpetuating this "war"? You could lock us all up until the cows home it would do no good. Mother nature is driving this war and unfortunately the old and infirmed are the collaterally damage. It does not matter what you do if your name is on the bullet it will find you. To say it is been perpetuated by the younger generation is unfair. Perhaps you have not seen the waterpark festival pictures from Wuhan where thousands of people congregated without Covid-19 fears? This is an example of how a society pulled together and bit the bullet while they pulled off the bandaid. We have prolonged restrictions solely because our adherence to the rules has been half hearted. The same people who are bitching about restrictions are the same selfish people who make them necessary. There are those of us who have religiously obeyed the rules and have to suffer because others felt too entitled to have those rules apply to them. So sorry if we find those rule breakers to be selfish. Since the dawn of time man has handled the spread if disease through isolation. It's only now in the modern age that people in countries used to "soft" living that we don't have the backbone to do what it takes to get Covid-19 behind us. How many times do people have to be told there is a vaccine in production as we speak? It's like putting you hands over your ears because you don't want to hear a truth that breaks down your argument." So if we have got this right the majority of society have to be prepared to sacrifice their jobs, their homes, their education, their mental wellbeing and in some case even their health to protect at all costs the old and infirmed. If they are not prepared to do this then they are selfish. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"They're neither. At the moment I think they're probably scape goats. " | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"These so called selfish young people enjoying themselves are the same young men and women that are sent to war to fight and die to protect the old and infirmed. Which section of society are the selfish ones then? Eh are we at war now too? This really is a lousy year.In a way you could say we are, (corvid war) but in this war it is the old and infirmed that may die not the young. How can young people say they are defending the old and infirmed when it is young people mainly perpetuating this "war"? You could lock us all up until the cows home it would do no good. Mother nature is driving this war and unfortunately the old and infirmed are the collaterally damage. It does not matter what you do if your name is on the bullet it will find you. To say it is been perpetuated by the younger generation is unfair. Perhaps you have not seen the waterpark festival pictures from Wuhan where thousands of people congregated without Covid-19 fears? This is an example of how a society pulled together and bit the bullet while they pulled off the bandaid. We have prolonged restrictions solely because our adherence to the rules has been half hearted. The same people who are bitching about restrictions are the same selfish people who make them necessary. There are those of us who have religiously obeyed the rules and have to suffer because others felt too entitled to have those rules apply to them. So sorry if we find those rule breakers to be selfish. Since the dawn of time man has handled the spread if disease through isolation. It's only now in the modern age that people in countries used to "soft" living that we don't have the backbone to do what it takes to get Covid-19 behind us. How many times do people have to be told there is a vaccine in production as we speak? It's like putting you hands over your ears because you don't want to hear a truth that breaks down your argument. So if we have got this right the majority of society have to be prepared to sacrifice their jobs, their homes, their education, their mental wellbeing and in some case even their health to protect at all costs the old and infirmed. If they are not prepared to do this then they are selfish. " Let's get this straight. The virus lasts two weeks. We have lived with this for 6 months. There are other countries where governments took proactive measures and the citizens obeyed the law. They have no restrictions. None of those things you mention are happening there. People are losing their jobs, houses etc because of the exact same attitude you have right now. Those of us who have to live with a problem others have perpetuated have the right to complain. Those who keep the virus alive through their reckless behaviour should blame themselves. By the way. It's not a choice between restrictions or the economy. The worst hit countries from an economic perspective correlate directly with their Covid-19 infections. Countries that imposed the strictest measures are the ones who came out of the best. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"These so called selfish young people enjoying themselves are the same young men and women that are sent to war to fight and die to protect the old and infirmed. Which section of society are the selfish ones then? Eh are we at war now too? This really is a lousy year.In a way you could say we are, (corvid war) but in this war it is the old and infirmed that may die not the young. How can young people say they are defending the old and infirmed when it is young people mainly perpetuating this "war"? You could lock us all up until the cows home it would do no good. Mother nature is driving this war and unfortunately the old and infirmed are the collaterally damage. It does not matter what you do if your name is on the bullet it will find you. To say it is been perpetuated by the younger generation is unfair. Perhaps you have not seen the waterpark festival pictures from Wuhan where thousands of people congregated without Covid-19 fears? This is an example of how a society pulled together and bit the bullet while they pulled off the bandaid. We have prolonged restrictions solely because our adherence to the rules has been half hearted. The same people who are bitching about restrictions are the same selfish people who make them necessary. There are those of us who have religiously obeyed the rules and have to suffer because others felt too entitled to have those rules apply to them. So sorry if we find those rule breakers to be selfish. Since the dawn of time man has handled the spread if disease through isolation. It's only now in the modern age that people in countries used to "soft" living that we don't have the backbone to do what it takes to get Covid-19 behind us. How many times do people have to be told there is a vaccine in production as we speak? It's like putting you hands over your ears because you don't want to hear a truth that breaks down your argument. So if we have got this right the majority of society have to be prepared to sacrifice their jobs, their homes, their education, their mental wellbeing and in some case even their health to protect at all costs the old and infirmed. If they are not prepared to do this then they are selfish. " Have you forgotten about the 1.5 million vulnerable people who are not old and infirmed? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"These so called selfish young people enjoying themselves are the same young men and women that are sent to war to fight and die to protect the old and infirmed. Which section of society are the selfish ones then? Eh are we at war now too? This really is a lousy year.In a way you could say we are, (corvid war) but in this war it is the old and infirmed that may die not the young. How can young people say they are defending the old and infirmed when it is young people mainly perpetuating this "war"? You could lock us all up until the cows home it would do no good. Mother nature is driving this war and unfortunately the old and infirmed are the collaterally damage. It does not matter what you do if your name is on the bullet it will find you. To say it is been perpetuated by the younger generation is unfair. Perhaps you have not seen the waterpark festival pictures from Wuhan where thousands of people congregated without Covid-19 fears? This is an example of how a society pulled together and bit the bullet while they pulled off the bandaid. We have prolonged restrictions solely because our adherence to the rules has been half hearted. The same people who are bitching about restrictions are the same selfish people who make them necessary. There are those of us who have religiously obeyed the rules and have to suffer because others felt too entitled to have those rules apply to them. So sorry if we find those rule breakers to be selfish. Since the dawn of time man has handled the spread if disease through isolation. It's only now in the modern age that people in countries used to "soft" living that we don't have the backbone to do what it takes to get Covid-19 behind us. How many times do people have to be told there is a vaccine in production as we speak? It's like putting you hands over your ears because you don't want to hear a truth that breaks down your argument. So if we have got this right the majority of society have to be prepared to sacrifice their jobs, their homes, their education, their mental wellbeing and in some case even their health to protect at all costs the old and infirmed. If they are not prepared to do this then they are selfish. Have you forgotten about the 1.5 million vulnerable people who are not old and infirmed?" Apparently they can be put at risk because young people need to have mass gatherings which are more important. Just don't dare call them selfish | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Heard the other day that young people refer to it as “the boomer remover “, in that it will kill off the baby boomer generation. Really!
Yep - little tinkers.
Don't think of Dominic Cummings as a young person.... but yes he did use words to that effect (allegedly).
Ah it's a DC quote is it.
Nope. Not a quote. That's why I said "words to that affect". "He argued for the opposite in fact. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Heard the other day that young people refer to it as “the boomer remover “, in that it will kill off the baby boomer generation. Really!
Yep - little tinkers.
Don't think of Dominic Cummings as a young person.... but yes he did use words to that effect (allegedly).
Ah it's a DC quote is it.
Nope. Not a quote. That's why I said "words to that affect".
He argued for the opposite in fact."Well if he did, he didn't do a very good job. We also vehemently deny embarking on a policy of herd immunity. But then went on to do all things we would have done to achieve herd immunity. Do you judge people by what they say or what they do? I'm old fashioned. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... it doesn't matter how much it claims to be a chicken. It's still a duck. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Heard the other day that young people refer to it as “the boomer remover “, in that it will kill off the baby boomer generation. Really!
Yep - little tinkers.
Don't think of Dominic Cummings as a young person.... but yes he did use words to that effect (allegedly).
Ah it's a DC quote is it. "No! | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"These so called selfish young people enjoying themselves are the same young men and women that are sent to war to fight and die to protect the old and infirmed. Which section of society are the selfish ones then? Eh are we at war now too? This really is a lousy year.In a way you could say we are, (corvid war) but in this war it is the old and infirmed that may die not the young. How can young people say they are defending the old and infirmed when it is young people mainly perpetuating this "war"? You could lock us all up until the cows home it would do no good. Mother nature is driving this war and unfortunately the old and infirmed are the collaterally damage. It does not matter what you do if your name is on the bullet it will find you. To say it is been perpetuated by the younger generation is unfair. Perhaps you have not seen the waterpark festival pictures from Wuhan where thousands of people congregated without Covid-19 fears? This is an example of how a society pulled together and bit the bullet while they pulled off the bandaid. We have prolonged restrictions solely because our adherence to the rules has been half hearted. The same people who are bitching about restrictions are the same selfish people who make them necessary. There are those of us who have religiously obeyed the rules and have to suffer because others felt too entitled to have those rules apply to them. So sorry if we find those rule breakers to be selfish. Since the dawn of time man has handled the spread if disease through isolation. It's only now in the modern age that people in countries used to "soft" living that we don't have the backbone to do what it takes to get Covid-19 behind us. How many times do people have to be told there is a vaccine in production as we speak? It's like putting you hands over your ears because you don't want to hear a truth that breaks down your argument. So if we have got this right the majority of society have to be prepared to sacrifice their jobs, their homes, their education, their mental wellbeing and in some case even their health to protect at all costs the old and infirmed. If they are not prepared to do this then they are selfish. Have you forgotten about the 1.5 million vulnerable people who are not old and infirmed? Apparently they can be put at risk because young people need to have mass gatherings which are more important. Just don't dare call them selfish "It will be interesting to see what people views are when furlough ends and the furlough recipient then find themselves laid off because their jobs are no longer there. People can afford to be very sanctimonious about others actions when they have a full belly and a roof over their heads. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"These so called selfish young people enjoying themselves are the same young men and women that are sent to war to fight and die to protect the old and infirmed. Which section of society are the selfish ones then? " Sent to war? Like conscription that ended in 1960? (Surely you don't mean chose to enter the armed forces, because that would be absurd to say in these circumstances) The old and infirm were conscripted in their day
Anyone who can't behave themselves by doing their bit to stop the spread is selfish. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"They're neither. At the moment I think they're probably scape goats. " | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Young people are indeed being scapegoated. As ever I blame the government more than anyone. But the idea that carrying on as normal because they'll be right jack, is heroic in some way, is ludicrous." We do have genuine heroes. They are the workers at the NHS (of all ages) who put their lives on the line without adequate PPE, slept in their vehicles to protect their families and saved a lot of lives whilst losing many of their own. To compare that sacrifice to a bunch of people having a party is a joke. And not a good one. If this was a virus that killed the younger generation (as was the case with yhe Spanish Flu) they'd be huddled at home. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"These so called selfish young people enjoying themselves are the same young men and women that are sent to war to fight and die to protect the old and infirmed. Which section of society are the selfish ones then? Eh are we at war now too? This really is a lousy year.In a way you could say we are, (corvid war) but in this war it is the old and infirmed that may die not the young. How can young people say they are defending the old and infirmed when it is young people mainly perpetuating this "war"? You could lock us all up until the cows home it would do no good. Mother nature is driving this war and unfortunately the old and infirmed are the collaterally damage. It does not matter what you do if your name is on the bullet it will find you. To say it is been perpetuated by the younger generation is unfair. Perhaps you have not seen the waterpark festival pictures from Wuhan where thousands of people congregated without Covid-19 fears? This is an example of how a society pulled together and bit the bullet while they pulled off the bandaid. We have prolonged restrictions solely because our adherence to the rules has been half hearted. The same people who are bitching about restrictions are the same selfish people who make them necessary. There are those of us who have religiously obeyed the rules and have to suffer because others felt too entitled to have those rules apply to them. So sorry if we find those rule breakers to be selfish. Since the dawn of time man has handled the spread if disease through isolation. It's only now in the modern age that people in countries used to "soft" living that we don't have the backbone to do what it takes to get Covid-19 behind us. How many times do people have to be told there is a vaccine in production as we speak? It's like putting you hands over your ears because you don't want to hear a truth that breaks down your argument. So if we have got this right the majority of society have to be prepared to sacrifice their jobs, their homes, their education, their mental wellbeing and in some case even their health to protect at all costs the old and infirmed. If they are not prepared to do this then they are selfish. Have you forgotten about the 1.5 million vulnerable people who are not old and infirmed? Apparently they can be put at risk because young people need to have mass gatherings which are more important. Just don't dare call them selfish
It will be interesting to see what people views are when furlough ends and the furlough recipient then find themselves laid off because their jobs are no longer there. People can afford to be very sanctimonious about others actions when they have a full belly and a roof over their heads."That's a very good point. Furlough was never meant to go past October because we should have nailed Covid-19 by now. But we haven't. Why? Do you think we all enjoy staying at home? Think it's fun for us and we get a kick out of it? Before Covid-19 I was going away 3 or 4 times a month. As a couple we have over 400 verifications in 5 years. That's all come to a dead stop. The first three months I blame Covid-19. The rest I blame on people who don't give a damn about anyone except themselves. If that wasn’t bad enough they still have the audacity to come on to the forum with every stupid reason under the sun to justify their selfishness. By the way I haven't stopped swinging because I personally feel at risk. I've stopped to protect some NHS worker I'll never meet and a vulnerable person who I have no obligation towards. I would take time to explain the concept of compassion for others but it seems this is a concept some people cannot fathom. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"These so called selfish young people enjoying themselves are the same young men and women that are sent to war to fight and die to protect the old and infirmed. Which section of society are the selfish ones then? Sent to war? Like conscription that ended in 1960? (Surely you don't mean chose to enter the armed forces, because that would be absurd to say in these circumstances) The old and infirm were conscripted in their day
Anyone who can't behave themselves by doing their bit to stop the spread is selfish."With the greatest respect I think you missed the point of the post. When these young men and women returned from Afghanistan etc they were hail as heroes. These same young people are now portrayed as villains' and selfish because they dare to live their life's. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"These so called selfish young people enjoying themselves are the same young men and women that are sent to war to fight and die to protect the old and infirmed. Which section of society are the selfish ones then? Sent to war? Like conscription that ended in 1960? (Surely you don't mean chose to enter the armed forces, because that would be absurd to say in these circumstances) The old and infirm were conscripted in their day
Anyone who can't behave themselves by doing their bit to stop the spread is selfish. With the greatest respect I think you missed the point of the post. When these young men and women returned from Afghanistan etc they were hail as heroes. These same young people are now portrayed as villains' and selfish because they dare to live their life's. "Sorry I was not aware that you were referring to our military personnel. Your initial post makes no mention of this. You spoke of young people "trying to lead a normal life and mixing with their peers" which is a far cry from fighting terrorism in Afghanistan. So yes if that is the case I have misunderstood you. If so I humbly apologise. Perhaps pushing herd immunity (which is the concept that has killed more people than all the terrorists in the world combined) isn't going to get a favorable response. You have posed a question and asked what people think. Now you know.  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"These so called selfish young people enjoying themselves are the same young men and women that are sent to war to fight and die to protect the old and infirmed. Which section of society are the selfish ones then? Eh are we at war now too? This really is a lousy year.In a way you could say we are, (corvid war) but in this war it is the old and infirmed that may die not the young. " Wait till people get covid, when they are battling the common cold. Could be a game changer then, as your immune system is compromised fighting a cold. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Earlier this year we celebrated VE Day. Now we say that the old should shut themselves in indefinitely so the young (including those who *chose* to sign up for the armed forces) can pretend there isn't a pandemic going on. The old would like to live their lives, too." People are under the impressions that if a vaccine comes along it is a silver bullet and our troubles are over.This will not be the case and covid is here to stay (just like flu).It selfish and unhealth for society as a whole to ask young people to put their lives on hold forever. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Earlier this year we celebrated VE Day. Now we say that the old should shut themselves in indefinitely so the young (including those who *chose* to sign up for the armed forces) can pretend there isn't a pandemic going on. The old would like to live their lives, too.People are under the impressions that if a vaccine comes along it is a silver bullet and our troubles are over.This will not be the case and covid is here to stay (just like flu).It selfish and unhealth for society as a whole to ask young people to put their lives on hold forever. " So old people, some of whom fought actual Nazis, are expected to shut themselves in forever because young people can't restrain themselves during a global crisis? The great British Blitz spirit seems long gone  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Earlier this year we celebrated VE Day. Now we say that the old should shut themselves in indefinitely so the young (including those who *chose* to sign up for the armed forces) can pretend there isn't a pandemic going on. The old would like to live their lives, too.People are under the impressions that if a vaccine comes along it is a silver bullet and our troubles are over.This will not be the case and covid is here to stay (just like flu).It selfish and unhealth for society as a whole to ask young people to put their lives on hold forever. So old people, some of whom fought actual Nazis, are expected to shut themselves in forever because young people can't restrain themselves during a global crisis? The great British Blitz spirit seems long gone "What do you suggest is the answer then? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Neither, unfortunately they don't fully understand the consequences of their actions in line with their age and life experience. Looking at the graphs from the update it's clearly a massive problem in the 17-21 range whatever the reasons. All we can hope is that they start to take notice, before they loose family members." or maybe the younger generation can read the data and bs better than most and think the hospitalisations and death rates are falling rapidly that the virus seems to have weakened and maybe now this as all become a political battle that they chose not too be a part of? just a thought | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Earlier this year we celebrated VE Day. Now we say that the old should shut themselves in indefinitely so the young (including those who *chose* to sign up for the armed forces) can pretend there isn't a pandemic going on. The old would like to live their lives, too.People are under the impressions that if a vaccine comes along it is a silver bullet and our troubles are over.This will not be the case and covid is here to stay (just like flu).It selfish and unhealth for society as a whole to ask young people to put their lives on hold forever. " I am one of those people. I believe this because: 1) Smallpox was eradicated from the face of the earth using vaccine. 2) The Oxford Vaccine is in the final phase of human trials. 3) They have been manufacturing this vaccine for months now so we we have enough doses for everyone in uk the daybwe get the green light. 4) Once you have enough people vaccinated (especially the vulnerable) then herd immunity is effective. None of this news. It's all over Google. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Neither, unfortunately they don't fully understand the consequences of their actions in line with their age and life experience. Looking at the graphs from the update it's clearly a massive problem in the 17-21 range whatever the reasons. All we can hope is that they start to take notice, before they loose family members. or maybe the younger generation can read the data and bs better than most and think the hospitalisations and death rates are falling rapidly that the virus seems to have weakened and maybe now this as all become a political battle that they chose not too be a part of? just 4a thought " These threads are getting toxic.. So, let us not be blind to our differences--but let us also direct attention to our common interests and to the means by which those differences can be resolved. And if we cannot end now our differences, at least we can help make the world safe for diversity. For, in the final analysis, our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this small planet. We all breathe the same air. We all cherish our children's future. And we are all mortal. John F. Kennedy | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Are young people villain's or heroes by trying to lead a normal life and mixing with their peers and in doing so establishing and building herd immunity. Which of course is mother nature's vaccine. " Don't tar all young people with the same brush there are as many fucked up old people as there are young. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Neither, unfortunately they don't fully understand the consequences of their actions in line with their age and life experience. Looking at the graphs from the update it's clearly a massive problem in the 17-21 range whatever the reasons. All we can hope is that they start to take notice, before they loose family members. or maybe the younger generation can read the data and bs better than most and think the hospitalisations and death rates are falling rapidly that the virus seems to have weakened and maybe now this as all become a political battle that they chose not too be a part of? just a thought " Let's be thankful Boris is in charge and not a swinger then | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Neither, unfortunately they don't fully understand the consequences of their actions in line with their age and life experience. Looking at the graphs from the update it's clearly a massive problem in the 17-21 range whatever the reasons. All we can hope is that they start to take notice, before they loose family members. or maybe the younger generation can read the data and bs better than most and think the hospitalisations and death rates are falling rapidly that the virus seems to have weakened and maybe now this as all become a political battle that they chose not too be a part of? just a thought Let's be thankful Boris is in charge and not a swinger then" well I'm sure he thinks the same | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Neither, unfortunately they don't fully understand the consequences of their actions in line with their age and life experience. Looking at the graphs from the update it's clearly a massive problem in the 17-21 range whatever the reasons. All we can hope is that they start to take notice, before they loose family members. or maybe the younger generation can read the data and bs better than most and think the hospitalisations and death rates are falling rapidly that the virus seems to have weakened and maybe now this as all become a political battle that they chose not too be a part of? just a thought " What you are saying is absolutely true. Our youngsters are reacting to social media sentiment. I am reminded of the line from the boxer "A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest" | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"As a young person why would I want to have the vaccine? Or are you going to make it compulsory for all? " Having the vaccine is the same as social distancing etc. It's not to protect you It's to protect others. One moment you want to save jobs, homes, education, mental health etc. The next you're asking why you should get a vaccination. Well to save jobs, homes, education, mental health etc! | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Neither, unfortunately they don't fully understand the consequences of their actions in line with their age and life experience. Looking at the graphs from the update it's clearly a massive problem in the 17-21 range whatever the reasons. All we can hope is that they start to take notice, before they loose family members. or maybe the younger generation can read the data and bs better than most and think the hospitalisations and death rates are falling rapidly that the virus seems to have weakened and maybe now this as all become a political battle that they chose not too be a part of? just a thought What you are saying is absolutely true. Our youngsters are reacting to social media sentiment. I am reminded of the line from the boxer "A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest"" i could not disagree more with that line. and youngsters and adults are simply listening in disbelief to he politicians talking and looking at the data that suggests/points towards the virus weakening and deciding what they think is best for themselves and their friends and families. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Neither, unfortunately they don't fully understand the consequences of their actions in line with their age and life experience. Looking at the graphs from the update it's clearly a massive problem in the 17-21 range whatever the reasons. All we can hope is that they start to take notice, before they loose family members. or maybe the younger generation can read the data and bs better than most and think the hospitalisations and death rates are falling rapidly that the virus seems to have weakened and maybe now this as all become a political battle that they chose not too be a part of? just a thought What you are saying is absolutely true. Our youngsters are reacting to social media sentiment. I am reminded of the line from the boxer "A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest" i could not disagree more with that line. and youngsters and adults are simply listening in disbelief to he politicians talking and looking at the data that suggests/points towards the virus weakening and deciding what they think is best for themselves and their friends and families. " They are not just deciding what is best for themselves and families. They are also putting other people at risk. Firstly we have seen a huge spike in infections, mainly younger people. And this has translated through to vulnerable people dying. The reports I have read are saying "the virus getting weaker" is beimg attributed to lower viral loads due to face masks and social distancing. When that goes out the window we are back to square one. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"As a young person why would I want to have the vaccine? Or are you going to make it compulsory for all? Having the vaccine is the same as social distancing etc. It's not to protect you It's to protect others. One moment you want to save jobs, homes, education, mental health etc. The next you're asking why you should get a vaccination. Well to save jobs, homes, education, mental health etc! "I did not asked why I should get vaccinated. I asked why should a young person who is not at risk and you have label selfish get vaccinated? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Neither, unfortunately they don't fully understand the consequences of their actions in line with their age and life experience. Looking at the graphs from the update it's clearly a massive problem in the 17-21 range whatever the reasons. All we can hope is that they start to take notice, before they loose family members. or maybe the younger generation can read the data and bs better than most and think the hospitalisations and death rates are falling rapidly that the virus seems to have weakened and maybe now this as all become a political battle that they chose not too be a part of? just a thought What you are saying is absolutely true. Our youngsters are reacting to social media sentiment. I am reminded of the line from the boxer "A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest" i could not disagree more with that line. and youngsters and adults are simply listening in disbelief to he politicians talking and looking at the data that suggests/points towards the virus weakening and deciding what they think is best for themselves and their friends and families. They are not just deciding what is best for themselves and families. They are also putting other people at risk. Firstly we have seen a huge spike in infections, mainly younger people. And this has translated through to vulnerable people dying. The reports I have read are saying "the virus getting weaker" is beimg attributed to lower viral loads due to face masks and social distancing. When that goes out the window we are back to square one." i disagree | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"As a young person why would I want to have the vaccine? Or are you going to make it compulsory for all? Having the vaccine is the same as social distancing etc. It's not to protect you It's to protect others. One moment you want to save jobs, homes, education, mental health etc. The next you're asking why you should get a vaccination. Well to save jobs, homes, education, mental health etc! I did not asked why I should get vaccinated. I asked why should a young person who is not at risk and you have label selfish get vaccinated?
"The answer is the same. If people want normality to retun this is what they need to do. It's not about them. You want herd immunity. That's how you get it. Here's your current herd immunity strategy: About 2200 people get infected every day in the UK. We have a population of around 68 million give or take a few. To achieve herd immunity you need 80% to have contracted Covid-19 and survived. That's 54 400 000 people. At 2200 per day that would require 824 months or 68 years. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"As a young person why would I want to have the vaccine? Or are you going to make it compulsory for all? Having the vaccine is the same as social distancing etc. It's not to protect you It's to protect others. One moment you want to save jobs, homes, education, mental health etc. The next you're asking why you should get a vaccination. Well to save jobs, homes, education, mental health etc! I did not asked why I should get vaccinated. I asked why should a young person who is not at risk and you have label selfish get vaccinated?
The answer is the same. If people want normality to retun this is what they need to do. It's not about them.
You want herd immunity. That's how you get it.
Here's your current herd immunity strategy: About 2200 people get infected every day in the UK. We have a population of around 68 million give or take a few. To achieve herd immunity you need 80% to have contracted Covid-19 and survived. That's 54 400 000 people. At 2200 per day that would require 824 months or 68 years. "We now have establish that a vaccine will not be effective unless it is compulsory. As plan A is fatal flaw. What is plan B ? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"As a young person why would I want to have the vaccine? Or are you going to make it compulsory for all? Having the vaccine is the same as social distancing etc. It's not to protect you It's to protect others. One moment you want to save jobs, homes, education, mental health etc. The next you're asking why you should get a vaccination. Well to save jobs, homes, education, mental health etc! I did not asked why I should get vaccinated. I asked why should a young person who is not at risk and you have label selfish get vaccinated?
The answer is the same. If people want normality to retun this is what they need to do. It's not about them.
You want herd immunity. That's how you get it.
Here's your current herd immunity strategy: About 2200 people get infected every day in the UK. We have a population of around 68 million give or take a few. To achieve herd immunity you need 80% to have contracted Covid-19 and survived. That's 54 400 000 people. At 2200 per day that would require 824 months or 68 years.
We now have establish that a vaccine will not be effective unless it is compulsory. As plan A is fatal flaw. What is plan B ? "Where did you get that a vaccine won't be effective if it isn't compulsory? Do you think antivaxers are in the majority? What will people do if employers refuse to let you come back to work unless you've been vaccinated. What if countries refuse entry to people who haven't been vaccinated? Do you think these antivaxers will have the courage of their conviction? Especially when millions of people around them get vaccinated and they don't glow in the dark or grow an extra limb? It will be interesting. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I did a calculation at the beginning of this outbreak that showed with rate of infection we we seeing then, it would take 37 years for us to achieve 80% required for herd immunity. These infections WILL filter through to the elderly and with 12 million people in the UK over the age of 65, how many lives do you think they are putting at risk? We are told there will be a vaccine in early 2021, so how many people need to die because others aren't prepared to wait?" Doubling of cases ever 4 days as it was at its worst, would have infected the population in a couple of months.. the mortality rate would have put the death toll at over 400,000 though. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"These so called selfish young people enjoying themselves are the same young men and women that are sent to war to fight and die to protect the old and infirmed. Which section of society are the selfish ones then? " You mean those young men and women who freely joined the armed forces and accepted the wages it provides in the full knowledge of what the job would require of them | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Most of my hobbies are solitary and I work primarily from home, so I have very little skin in the game on lockdown restrictions. The impact on my existing lifestyle are minimal so long as they don't shut the gyms again. That having been said, personally I have no issue with young people going out, catching, recovering from the virus and becoming ineffective vectors for its further spread into more vulnerable communities. Those with specific vulnerability should be facilitated to lockdown, 100% furlough, not 80%. The rest of us should be getting back to it. I wouldn't call them heroes, but they most certainly aren't villains. Just human beings living a human life, as opposed to the pod people that the new normal crowd want us to become because they are joyless karen stasi wannabes" This supposes that the young demographic are able to contract the virus without passing it on to the older demographic. How do you invisage compartmentalising the 12 million over 65s and the other 56 million? In the initial outbreak did 90 year olds in care homes contract Covid-19 from their skiing holidays in Northern Italy? "joyless karen stasi wannabes"? Really? I guess if wanting to protect our vulnerable and NHS people makes you a bad person then some of us are monsters. I've hardly left the house in 6 months, but in normal times I'll rock your socks off! Joyless !!! | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Earlier this year we celebrated VE Day. Now we say that the old should shut themselves in indefinitely so the young (including those who *chose* to sign up for the armed forces) can pretend there isn't a pandemic going on. The old would like to live their lives, too.People are under the impressions that if a vaccine comes along it is a silver bullet and our troubles are over.This will not be the case and covid is here to stay (just like flu).It selfish and unhealth for society as a whole to ask young people to put their lives on hold forever. So old people, some of whom fought actual Nazis, are expected to shut themselves in forever because young people can't restrain themselves during a global crisis? The great British Blitz spirit seems long gone What do you suggest is the answer then? "That we think of our community not just ourselves. That those who might not get seriously ill suck it up and contain the spread anyway. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"They have grown old, as we hope to grow old; Age has wearied them, and the years condemn. At the going down of the sun and in the morning We should still remember them. Lest we fucking forget" | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Are young people villain's or heroes by trying to lead a normal life and mixing with their peers and in doing so establishing and building herd immunity. Which of course is mother nature's vaccine. " Neither they are just selfish | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I did a calculation at the beginning of this outbreak that showed with rate of infection we we seeing then, it would take 37 years for us to achieve 80% required for herd immunity. " Glad to see that your calculations are superior to Anders Tegnell in Sweden where life is now, to all intents and purposes, normal. Or indeed the open letter from some 90 doctors and researchers, including Nobel laureate in Chemistry, urging Israel to adopt the Swedish model and try to reach herd immunity while shielding the elderly. The letter reads: “Given the large amount of information piling up about the low danger of mortality among the healthy population, and given the lack of certainty about the the efficacy and safety of a vaccine being developed soon, and in light of the research done until now, it’s clear that the best way to get out of the crisis quickly with a minimum of death (and also damage to health and the economy) needs to center on developing deep immunity by preventing the elderly population at risk from being infected.” | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Are young people villain's or heroes by trying to lead a normal life and mixing with their peers and in doing so establishing and building herd immunity. Which of course is mother nature's vaccine. " I think young people have been picked on. More young people are being tested to. We should all be allowed to go about our business as we would like to with out all these crap illegal restrictions being imposed on us against a virus which actually has a very low death rate ( lower than cancer, phumoniea ). We are protecting a few at the expensive of everyone and it’s wrong. We do not fit speed limiters to cars and yet we bang on speed kills, cigarettes are not illegal yet we bang on the smoking kills and can even kill those around you with secondary smoke. Ducking angry about all this shit is a understatement. We should be working on a hit rate model and investing in the NHS not destroying our economy, ruining businesses that people have spent years building, putting millions out of work, Destroying family’s lives, destroying mental health of millions, ruining children’s education and their fitness and mental health. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I did a calculation at the beginning of this outbreak that showed with rate of infection we we seeing then, it would take 37 years for us to achieve 80% required for herd immunity. Glad to see that your calculations are superior to Anders Tegnell in Sweden where life is now, to all intents and purposes, normal. Or indeed the open letter from some 90 doctors and researchers, including Nobel laureate in Chemistry, urging Israel to adopt the Swedish model and try to reach herd immunity while shielding the elderly. The letter reads: “Given the large amount of information piling up about the low danger of mortality among the healthy population, and given the lack of certainty about the the efficacy and safety of a vaccine being developed soon, and in light of the research done until now, it’s clear that the best way to get out of the crisis quickly with a minimum of death (and also damage to health and the economy) needs to center on developing deep immunity by preventing the elderly population at risk from being infected.” " Sweden is not actually working on herd immunity it is put in the press as that but they actually work on something called the hit rate. Long and short of it the idea is that generally fit healthy people would catch the virus and while the have the anti bodies ( what ever length of time that is ) they are unable to contract or pass on the virus. Thus naturally slowing down the infection rate and more effective over a long period of time than lockdowns which actually just prolong the infection rate. This is a much more sensible approach than anyone else’s at present and much better suits the modern world. Models which have been produced basically show that as a nation we are fucked over winter as 1. People who would possible have caught Covid 19 through summer months and had mild symptoms now run more risk of suffering worse symptoms in winter months. 2. Normal cold and flu infection rates will be higher this flu season as far fewer people where exposed to these through out the year with the biggest spread coming from schools and nursery’s 3. In general expect to see far higher hospital admissions over a shorter period of time than normal due to the previous to reasons. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I did a calculation at the beginning of this outbreak that showed with rate of infection we we seeing then, it would take 37 years for us to achieve 80% required for herd immunity. Glad to see that your calculations are superior to Anders Tegnell in Sweden where life is now, to all intents and purposes, normal. Or indeed the open letter from some 90 doctors and researchers, including Nobel laureate in Chemistry, urging Israel to adopt the Swedish model and try to reach herd immunity while shielding the elderly. The letter reads: “Given the large amount of information piling up about the low danger of mortality among the healthy population, and given the lack of certainty about the the efficacy and safety of a vaccine being developed soon, and in light of the research done until now, it’s clear that the best way to get out of the crisis quickly with a minimum of death (and also damage to health and the economy) needs to center on developing deep immunity by preventing the elderly population at risk from being infected.” Sweden is not actually working on herd immunity it is put in the press as that but they actually work on something called the hit rate. Long and short of it the idea is that generally fit healthy people would catch the virus and while the have the anti bodies ( what ever length of time that is ) they are unable to contract or pass on the virus. Thus naturally slowing down the infection rate and more effective over a long period of time than lockdowns which actually just prolong the infection rate. This is a much more sensible approach than anyone else’s at present and much better suits the modern world. Models which have been produced basically show that as a nation we are fucked over winter as 1. People who would possible have caught Covid 19 through summer months and had mild symptoms now run more risk of suffering worse symptoms in winter months. 2. Normal cold and flu infection rates will be higher this flu season as far fewer people where exposed to these through out the year with the biggest spread coming from schools and nursery’s 3. In general expect to see far higher hospital admissions over a shorter period of time than normal due to the previous to reasons. Long and short of that lockdowns are pointless " | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I did a calculation at the beginning of this outbreak that showed with rate of infection we we seeing then, it would take 37 years for us to achieve 80% required for herd immunity. Glad to see that your calculations are superior to Anders Tegnell in Sweden where life is now, to all intents and purposes, normal. Or indeed the open letter from some 90 doctors and researchers, including Nobel laureate in Chemistry, urging Israel to adopt the Swedish model and try to reach herd immunity while shielding the elderly. The letter reads: “Given the large amount of information piling up about the low danger of mortality among the healthy population, and given the lack of certainty about the the efficacy and safety of a vaccine being developed soon, and in light of the research done until now, it’s clear that the best way to get out of the crisis quickly with a minimum of death (and also damage to health and the economy) needs to center on developing deep immunity by preventing the elderly population at risk from being infected.” " Someone on another thread has provided data on how poorly Sweden have faired in comparison to their Scandinavian counterparts such as Norway and Denmark. If you want to compare apples with oranges. Let's do that. Let us compare Great Britain with Greenland. They've had 14 cases. 14 recoveries. No deaths. If you have a problem with my maths then by all means show me where I've gone wrong. If you expect me to take you seriously then you need to provide a counter argument. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Wonder how the discussion would go if Covid targetted the younger generation more than the older? It's very easy to be heroic with other peoples lives. " "Those old people wanting groceries and bingo. Shame on them, will no one understand our pain!" | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Wonder how the discussion would go if Covid targetted the younger generation more than the older? It's very easy to be heroic with other peoples lives. " if you are not fit enough to go out then don’t go out. If you do go out it’s your choice. That doesn’t matter what age you are. Instead we have said some a very low % of sufferers which is a very very low % of the population may die from this so there for we must impact the whole 66 million people of this country and future generations somehow. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I did a calculation at the beginning of this outbreak that showed with rate of infection we we seeing then, it would take 37 years for us to achieve 80% required for herd immunity. Glad to see that your calculations are superior to Anders Tegnell in Sweden where life is now, to all intents and purposes, normal. Or indeed the open letter from some 90 doctors and researchers, including Nobel laureate in Chemistry, urging Israel to adopt the Swedish model and try to reach herd immunity while shielding the elderly. The letter reads: “Given the large amount of information piling up about the low danger of mortality among the healthy population, and given the lack of certainty about the the efficacy and safety of a vaccine being developed soon, and in light of the research done until now, it’s clear that the best way to get out of the crisis quickly with a minimum of death (and also damage to health and the economy) needs to center on developing deep immunity by preventing the elderly population at risk from being infected.” Someone on another thread has provided data on how poorly Sweden have faired in comparison to their Scandinavian counterparts such as Norway and Denmark. If you want to compare apples with oranges. Let's do that. Let us compare Great Britain with Greenland. They've had 14 cases. 14 recoveries. No deaths. If you have a problem with my maths then by all means show me where I've gone wrong. If you expect me to take you seriously then you need to provide a counter argument. " they have not compared badley at all they accept that had a higher infection rate and death rate at the beginning and through peak which has now well and truely levelled off and continues to decline. That is exactly their point and are therefor going in to their normal flu season in a better position to others. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Are young people villain's or heroes by trying to lead a normal life and mixing with their peers and in doing so establishing and building herd immunity. Which of course is mother nature's vaccine. I think young people have been picked on. More young people are being tested to. We should all be allowed to go about our business as we would like to with out all these crap illegal restrictions being imposed on us against a virus which actually has a very low death rate ( lower than cancer, phumoniea ). We are protecting a few at the expensive of everyone and it’s wrong. We do not fit speed limiters to cars and yet we bang on speed kills, cigarettes are not illegal yet we bang on the smoking kills and can even kill those around you with secondary smoke. Ducking angry about all this shit is a understatement. We should be working on a hit rate model and investing in the NHS not destroying our economy, ruining businesses that people have spent years building, putting millions out of work, Destroying family’s lives, destroying mental health of millions, ruining children’s education and their fitness and mental health." On 3 April 2020 it was announced that 2 young nurses lost their lives to Covid-19. One was known to have no underlying health conditions. It was heart wrenchingly sad. And some people here just can't wait to have it happen again. Excuse me. But have I missed something. Are younh people being restricted from studying? Are young people being prevented from working? Because if not all this crap about the economy, education and mental well being is based on restrictions no longer in place. People wanting to spread the disease are the reason why we are where we are now. They are the problem not the solution and certainly not the victims. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Wonder how the discussion would go if Covid targetted the younger generation more than the older? It's very easy to be heroic with other peoples lives. if you are not fit enough to go out then don’t go out. If you do go out it’s your choice. That doesn’t matter what age you are. Instead we have said some a very low % of sufferers which is a very very low % of the population may die from this so there for we must impact the whole 66 million people of this country and future generations somehow. " I know several people who've not stepped foot outside since before lockdown. They can't afford to take chances with their lives. Plenty of kids need to self isolate and disrupt their education because of the ongoing spread. Economic damage is inevitable, it's just a question of the death toll and disability rate we're prepared to accept with it. And some people wanna go to the pub and have gangbangs but they can't. Help help they're so fucking oppressed. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I did a calculation at the beginning of this outbreak that showed with rate of infection we we seeing then, it would take 37 years for us to achieve 80% required for herd immunity. Glad to see that your calculations are superior to Anders Tegnell in Sweden where life is now, to all intents and purposes, normal. Or indeed the open letter from some 90 doctors and researchers, including Nobel laureate in Chemistry, urging Israel to adopt the Swedish model and try to reach herd immunity while shielding the elderly. The letter reads: “Given the large amount of information piling up about the low danger of mortality among the healthy population, and given the lack of certainty about the the efficacy and safety of a vaccine being developed soon, and in light of the research done until now, it’s clear that the best way to get out of the crisis quickly with a minimum of death (and also damage to health and the economy) needs to center on developing deep immunity by preventing the elderly population at risk from being infected.” Someone on another thread has provided data on how poorly Sweden have faired in comparison to their Scandinavian counterparts such as Norway and Denmark. If you want to compare apples with oranges. Let's do that. Let us compare Great Britain with Greenland. They've had 14 cases. 14 recoveries. No deaths. If you have a problem with my maths then by all means show me where I've gone wrong. If you expect me to take you seriously then you need to provide a counter argument. " also you can not compare a country that had a lockdown to one that hasn’t with out at least 12 months worth of data to be able to say they was wrong haha you would need a full years worth of data covering the full spectrum of seasons to compare - infection rate ( and remember this again is only based on numbers tested so is technically a myth anyway ) - actual death rates from covid suffers ( and again would need to be based on anyone who dies while suffering Covid or 28 days after recovery ) I think youll find Sweden will end this with much lower % Please also remember less than 900 000 world wide have died from this in now over 10 months that is a remarkably lower %. When you then add in the model of how many of those people would have died within twelve months due to other health reasons I think the picture becomes much clearer. Press still like to use the 50k+ figure of deaths for this country even though at least 10k had to be removed as they had actually dies from something else over 28 days later | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Are young people villain's or heroes by trying to lead a normal life and mixing with their peers and in doing so establishing and building herd immunity. Which of course is mother nature's vaccine. I think young people have been picked on. More young people are being tested to. We should all be allowed to go about our business as we would like to with out all these crap illegal restrictions being imposed on us against a virus which actually has a very low death rate ( lower than cancer, phumoniea ). We are protecting a few at the expensive of everyone and it’s wrong. We do not fit speed limiters to cars and yet we bang on speed kills, cigarettes are not illegal yet we bang on the smoking kills and can even kill those around you with secondary smoke. Ducking angry about all this shit is a understatement. We should be working on a hit rate model and investing in the NHS not destroying our economy, ruining businesses that people have spent years building, putting millions out of work, Destroying family’s lives, destroying mental health of millions, ruining children’s education and their fitness and mental health. On 3 April 2020 it was announced that 2 young nurses lost their lives to Covid-19. One was known to have no underlying health conditions. It was heart wrenchingly sad. And some people here just can't wait to have it happen again. Excuse me. But have I missed something. Are younh people being restricted from studying? Are young people being prevented from working? Because if not all this crap about the economy, education and mental well being is based on restrictions no longer in place. People wanting to spread the disease are the reason why we are where we are now. They are the problem not the solution and certainly not the victims. " have you not seen that many business ( hugely across the entertainment industries such as theatre, night clubs, sports stadiums ) are still not open that schools and education establishments have only just reopened after 6 months lost, people have already lost jobs and will continue to lose jobs, social distancing having a huge negative impact on business across the country. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Are young people villain's or heroes by trying to lead a normal life and mixing with their peers and in doing so establishing and building herd immunity. Which of course is mother nature's vaccine. I think young people have been picked on. More young people are being tested to. We should all be allowed to go about our business as we would like to with out all these crap illegal restrictions being imposed on us against a virus which actually has a very low death rate ( lower than cancer, phumoniea ). We are protecting a few at the expensive of everyone and it’s wrong. We do not fit speed limiters to cars and yet we bang on speed kills, cigarettes are not illegal yet we bang on the smoking kills and can even kill those around you with secondary smoke. Ducking angry about all this shit is a understatement. We should be working on a hit rate model and investing in the NHS not destroying our economy, ruining businesses that people have spent years building, putting millions out of work, Destroying family’s lives, destroying mental health of millions, ruining children’s education and their fitness and mental health. On 3 April 2020 it was announced that 2 young nurses lost their lives to Covid-19. One was known to have no underlying health conditions. It was heart wrenchingly sad. And some people here just can't wait to have it happen again. Excuse me. But have I missed something. Are younh people being restricted from studying? Are young people being prevented from working? Because if not all this crap about the economy, education and mental well being is based on restrictions no longer in place. People wanting to spread the disease are the reason why we are where we are now. They are the problem not the solution and certainly not the victims. have you not seen that many business ( hugely across the entertainment industries such as theatre, night clubs, sports stadiums ) are still not open that schools and education establishments have only just reopened after 6 months lost, people have already lost jobs and will continue to lose jobs, social distancing having a huge negative impact on business across the country. " ... and this won't happen if lots more people die? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"... so you can't compare Sweden because we have insufficient data, so Sweden is great?" but current statistics is proving their science right and many others wrong as their % of infection and death is decreasing while others are increasing. Read into that what you like. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I did a calculation at the beginning of this outbreak that showed with rate of infection we we seeing then, it would take 37 years for us to achieve 80% required for herd immunity. Glad to see that your calculations are superior to Anders Tegnell in Sweden where life is now, to all intents and purposes, normal. Or indeed the open letter from some 90 doctors and researchers, including Nobel laureate in Chemistry, urging Israel to adopt the Swedish model and try to reach herd immunity while shielding the elderly. The letter reads: “Given the large amount of information piling up about the low danger of mortality among the healthy population, and given the lack of certainty about the the efficacy and safety of a vaccine being developed soon, and in light of the research done until now, it’s clear that the best way to get out of the crisis quickly with a minimum of death (and also damage to health and the economy) needs to center on developing deep immunity by preventing the elderly population at risk from being infected.” Someone on another thread has provided data on how poorly Sweden have faired in comparison to their Scandinavian counterparts such as Norway and Denmark. If you want to compare apples with oranges. Let's do that. Let us compare Great Britain with Greenland. They've had 14 cases. 14 recoveries. No deaths. If you have a problem with my maths then by all means show me where I've gone wrong. If you expect me to take you seriously then you need to provide a counter argument. they have not compared badley at all they accept that had a higher infection rate and death rate at the beginning and through peak which has now well and truely levelled off and continues to decline. That is exactly their point and are therefor going in to their normal flu season in a better position to others. " Studies have shown that countries worst hit by Covid-19 from an economic perspective were those worst hit with infections. So. Sweden - 5843 Covid-19 deaths Norway - 264 Denmark - 628 Finland - 336 Swedens economy shrank 8.6% between April and June from the previous 3 months. So again if you want to compare Sweden to us they look good. If you want to compare Sweden to their neighbours they look terrible. "Achieving herd immunity was one of Tegnell’s original aims – but antibody surveys suggest only about 20 per cent of people in Stockholm have been infected, similar to levels in London and New York. That is far short of near the 70 per cent level estimated to be needed" | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Are young people villain's or heroes by trying to lead a normal life and mixing with their peers and in doing so establishing and building herd immunity. Which of course is mother nature's vaccine. I think young people have been picked on. More young people are being tested to. We should all be allowed to go about our business as we would like to with out all these crap illegal restrictions being imposed on us against a virus which actually has a very low death rate ( lower than cancer, phumoniea ). We are protecting a few at the expensive of everyone and it’s wrong. We do not fit speed limiters to cars and yet we bang on speed kills, cigarettes are not illegal yet we bang on the smoking kills and can even kill those around you with secondary smoke. Ducking angry about all this shit is a understatement. We should be working on a hit rate model and investing in the NHS not destroying our economy, ruining businesses that people have spent years building, putting millions out of work, Destroying family’s lives, destroying mental health of millions, ruining children’s education and their fitness and mental health. On 3 April 2020 it was announced that 2 young nurses lost their lives to Covid-19. One was known to have no underlying health conditions. It was heart wrenchingly sad. And some people here just can't wait to have it happen again. Excuse me. But have I missed something. Are younh people being restricted from studying? Are young people being prevented from working? Because if not all this crap about the economy, education and mental well being is based on restrictions no longer in place. People wanting to spread the disease are the reason why we are where we are now. They are the problem not the solution and certainly not the victims. have you not seen that many business ( hugely across the entertainment industries such as theatre, night clubs, sports stadiums ) are still not open that schools and education establishments have only just reopened after 6 months lost, people have already lost jobs and will continue to lose jobs, social distancing having a huge negative impact on business across the country. ... and this won't happen if lots more people die?" I’m sorry what do you mean??? A slightly higher % of people dieing over a shorter period of time compared with the 5 year average will not bring the country to its knees | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Are young people villain's or heroes by trying to lead a normal life and mixing with their peers and in doing so establishing and building herd immunity. Which of course is mother nature's vaccine. I think young people have been picked on. More young people are being tested to. We should all be allowed to go about our business as we would like to with out all these crap illegal restrictions being imposed on us against a virus which actually has a very low death rate ( lower than cancer, phumoniea ). We are protecting a few at the expensive of everyone and it’s wrong. We do not fit speed limiters to cars and yet we bang on speed kills, cigarettes are not illegal yet we bang on the smoking kills and can even kill those around you with secondary smoke. Ducking angry about all this shit is a understatement. We should be working on a hit rate model and investing in the NHS not destroying our economy, ruining businesses that people have spent years building, putting millions out of work, Destroying family’s lives, destroying mental health of millions, ruining children’s education and their fitness and mental health. On 3 April 2020 it was announced that 2 young nurses lost their lives to Covid-19. One was known to have no underlying health conditions. It was heart wrenchingly sad. And some people here just can't wait to have it happen again. Excuse me. But have I missed something. Are younh people being restricted from studying? Are young people being prevented from working? Because if not all this crap about the economy, education and mental well being is based on restrictions no longer in place. People wanting to spread the disease are the reason why we are where we are now. They are the problem not the solution and certainly not the victims. have you not seen that many business ( hugely across the entertainment industries such as theatre, night clubs, sports stadiums ) are still not open that schools and education establishments have only just reopened after 6 months lost, people have already lost jobs and will continue to lose jobs, social distancing having a huge negative impact on business across the country. ... and this won't happen if lots more people die? I’m sorry what do you mean??? A slightly higher % of people dieing over a shorter period of time compared with the 5 year average will not bring the country to its knees " If we let loose then the hospitals will become overwhelmed. Eventually the shielding will need to take risks, and in many countries the fact that some aren't going outside *at all* are the reason that the death rate has been suppressed. Let the virus rip, things slip, hospitals overwhelmed, back to tens of thousands more dead. And you're basing your optimistic assumptions about the death toll on the summer, and the overwhelming majority of transmission happens inside. The annual winter NHS crisis is coming. We can contain or mitigate economic damage. If the NHS collapses, and the death toll soars, the economic damage may well be much worse than this. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I did a calculation at the beginning of this outbreak that showed with rate of infection we we seeing then, it would take 37 years for us to achieve 80% required for herd immunity. Glad to see that your calculations are superior to Anders Tegnell in Sweden where life is now, to all intents and purposes, normal. Or indeed the open letter from some 90 doctors and researchers, including Nobel laureate in Chemistry, urging Israel to adopt the Swedish model and try to reach herd immunity while shielding the elderly. The letter reads: “Given the large amount of information piling up about the low danger of mortality among the healthy population, and given the lack of certainty about the the efficacy and safety of a vaccine being developed soon, and in light of the research done until now, it’s clear that the best way to get out of the crisis quickly with a minimum of death (and also damage to health and the economy) needs to center on developing deep immunity by preventing the elderly population at risk from being infected.” Someone on another thread has provided data on how poorly Sweden have faired in comparison to their Scandinavian counterparts such as Norway and Denmark. If you want to compare apples with oranges. Let's do that. Let us compare Great Britain with Greenland. They've had 14 cases. 14 recoveries. No deaths. If you have a problem with my maths then by all means show me where I've gone wrong. If you expect me to take you seriously then you need to provide a counter argument. they have not compared badley at all they accept that had a higher infection rate and death rate at the beginning and through peak which has now well and truely levelled off and continues to decline. That is exactly their point and are therefor going in to their normal flu season in a better position to others. Studies have shown that countries worst hit by Covid-19 from an economic perspective were those worst hit with infections. So. Sweden - 5843 Covid-19 deaths Norway - 264 Denmark - 628 Finland - 336 Swedens economy shrank 8.6% between April and June from the previous 3 months. So again if you want to compare Sweden to us they look good. If you want to compare Sweden to their neighbours they look terrible. "Achieving herd immunity was one of Tegnell’s original aims – but antibody surveys suggest only about 20 per cent of people in Stockholm have been infected, similar to levels in London and New York. That is far short of near the 70 per cent level estimated to be needed" " Their economy shrank as expected due to world restrictions and loss of tourism. Nothing to do with how they decided to react. Our economy is a shambles and hugely impacted by lockdown that we imposed. If we had not lockdown it would still have hugely shrunk due to world implications. Our economy will continue to be hit hard over a long period of time where as Sweden’s will bounce back quicker ( other than torisum due to world restrictions ). They took a big hit in a short period of time to minimise long term impacts | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Are young people villain's or heroes by trying to lead a normal life and mixing with their peers and in doing so establishing and building herd immunity. Which of course is mother nature's vaccine. I think young people have been picked on. More young people are being tested to. We should all be allowed to go about our business as we would like to with out all these crap illegal restrictions being imposed on us against a virus which actually has a very low death rate ( lower than cancer, phumoniea ). We are protecting a few at the expensive of everyone and it’s wrong. We do not fit speed limiters to cars and yet we bang on speed kills, cigarettes are not illegal yet we bang on the smoking kills and can even kill those around you with secondary smoke. Ducking angry about all this shit is a understatement. We should be working on a hit rate model and investing in the NHS not destroying our economy, ruining businesses that people have spent years building, putting millions out of work, Destroying family’s lives, destroying mental health of millions, ruining children’s education and their fitness and mental health. On 3 April 2020 it was announced that 2 young nurses lost their lives to Covid-19. One was known to have no underlying health conditions. It was heart wrenchingly sad. And some people here just can't wait to have it happen again. Excuse me. But have I missed something. Are younh people being restricted from studying? Are young people being prevented from working? Because if not all this crap about the economy, education and mental well being is based on restrictions no longer in place. People wanting to spread the disease are the reason why we are where we are now. They are the problem not the solution and certainly not the victims. have you not seen that many business ( hugely across the entertainment industries such as theatre, night clubs, sports stadiums ) are still not open that schools and education establishments have only just reopened after 6 months lost, people have already lost jobs and will continue to lose jobs, social distancing having a huge negative impact on business across the country. ... and this won't happen if lots more people die? I’m sorry what do you mean??? A slightly higher % of people dieing over a shorter period of time compared with the 5 year average will not bring the country to its knees If we let loose then the hospitals will become overwhelmed. Eventually the shielding will need to take risks, and in many countries the fact that some aren't going outside *at all* are the reason that the death rate has been suppressed. Let the virus rip, things slip, hospitals overwhelmed, back to tens of thousands more dead. And you're basing your optimistic assumptions about the death toll on the summer, and the overwhelming majority of transmission happens inside. The annual winter NHS crisis is coming. We can contain or mitigate economic damage. If the NHS collapses, and the death toll soars, the economic damage may well be much worse than this." the economy destruction is already done lockdown and continued restrictions have already done that. Who do you think will have to pay all costs back, pay for those out of work and continued to be put out of work. Higher costs and taxes will effectively see more businesses give up. The government has no out front this and also now has no borrowing power. Our children’s generation is ruined. To much think of the now and not the future. We could have at the very beginning invest billions in to the NHS And testing and had a first class health system rather than stupidly locking down, furlough schemes, eat out schemes, track and trace over and over. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Are young people villain's or heroes by trying to lead a normal life and mixing with their peers and in doing so establishing and building herd immunity. Which of course is mother nature's vaccine. I think young people have been picked on. More young people are being tested to. We should all be allowed to go about our business as we would like to with out all these crap illegal restrictions being imposed on us against a virus which actually has a very low death rate ( lower than cancer, phumoniea ). We are protecting a few at the expensive of everyone and it’s wrong. We do not fit speed limiters to cars and yet we bang on speed kills, cigarettes are not illegal yet we bang on the smoking kills and can even kill those around you with secondary smoke. Ducking angry about all this shit is a understatement. We should be working on a hit rate model and investing in the NHS not destroying our economy, ruining businesses that people have spent years building, putting millions out of work, Destroying family’s lives, destroying mental health of millions, ruining children’s education and their fitness and mental health. On 3 April 2020 it was announced that 2 young nurses lost their lives to Covid-19. One was known to have no underlying health conditions. It was heart wrenchingly sad. And some people here just can't wait to have it happen again. Excuse me. But have I missed something. Are younh people being restricted from studying? Are young people being prevented from working? Because if not all this crap about the economy, education and mental well being is based on restrictions no longer in place. People wanting to spread the disease are the reason why we are where we are now. They are the problem not the solution and certainly not the victims. have you not seen that many business ( hugely across the entertainment industries such as theatre, night clubs, sports stadiums ) are still not open that schools and education establishments have only just reopened after 6 months lost, people have already lost jobs and will continue to lose jobs, social distancing having a huge negative impact on business across the country. ... and this won't happen if lots more people die? I’m sorry what do you mean??? A slightly higher % of people dieing over a shorter period of time compared with the 5 year average will not bring the country to its knees If we let loose then the hospitals will become overwhelmed. Eventually the shielding will need to take risks, and in many countries the fact that some aren't going outside *at all* are the reason that the death rate has been suppressed. Let the virus rip, things slip, hospitals overwhelmed, back to tens of thousands more dead. And you're basing your optimistic assumptions about the death toll on the summer, and the overwhelming majority of transmission happens inside. The annual winter NHS crisis is coming. We can contain or mitigate economic damage. If the NHS collapses, and the death toll soars, the economic damage may well be much worse than this. the economy destruction is already done lockdown and continued restrictions have already done that. Who do you think will have to pay all costs back, pay for those out of work and continued to be put out of work. Higher costs and taxes will effectively see more businesses give up. The government has no out front this and also now has no borrowing power. Our children’s generation is ruined. To much think of the now and not the future. We could have at the very beginning invest billions in to the NHS And testing and had a first class health system rather than stupidly locking down, furlough schemes, eat out schemes, track and trace over and over. " We could have had an excellent system. I agree. This has been a farce. Why compound it with selfish short sightedness from young people (who'll have to pay it back, myself included) rather than doing our bit to get over this with as few deaths as possible? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Are young people villain's or heroes by trying to lead a normal life and mixing with their peers and in doing so establishing and building herd immunity. Which of course is mother nature's vaccine. I think young people have been picked on. More young people are being tested to. We should all be allowed to go about our business as we would like to with out all these crap illegal restrictions being imposed on us against a virus which actually has a very low death rate ( lower than cancer, phumoniea ). We are protecting a few at the expensive of everyone and it’s wrong. We do not fit speed limiters to cars and yet we bang on speed kills, cigarettes are not illegal yet we bang on the smoking kills and can even kill those around you with secondary smoke. Ducking angry about all this shit is a understatement. We should be working on a hit rate model and investing in the NHS not destroying our economy, ruining businesses that people have spent years building, putting millions out of work, Destroying family’s lives, destroying mental health of millions, ruining children’s education and their fitness and mental health. On 3 April 2020 it was announced that 2 young nurses lost their lives to Covid-19. One was known to have no underlying health conditions. It was heart wrenchingly sad. And some people here just can't wait to have it happen again. Excuse me. But have I missed something. Are younh people being restricted from studying? Are young people being prevented from working? Because if not all this crap about the economy, education and mental well being is based on restrictions no longer in place. People wanting to spread the disease are the reason why we are where we are now. They are the problem not the solution and certainly not the victims. have you not seen that many business ( hugely across the entertainment industries such as theatre, night clubs, sports stadiums ) are still not open that schools and education establishments have only just reopened after 6 months lost, people have already lost jobs and will continue to lose jobs, social distancing having a huge negative impact on business across the country. ... and this won't happen if lots more people die? I’m sorry what do you mean??? A slightly higher % of people dieing over a shorter period of time compared with the 5 year average will not bring the country to its knees If we let loose then the hospitals will become overwhelmed. Eventually the shielding will need to take risks, and in many countries the fact that some aren't going outside *at all* are the reason that the death rate has been suppressed. Let the virus rip, things slip, hospitals overwhelmed, back to tens of thousands more dead. And you're basing your optimistic assumptions about the death toll on the summer, and the overwhelming majority of transmission happens inside. The annual winter NHS crisis is coming. We can contain or mitigate economic damage. If the NHS collapses, and the death toll soars, the economic damage may well be much worse than this. the economy destruction is already done lockdown and continued restrictions have already done that. Who do you think will have to pay all costs back, pay for those out of work and continued to be put out of work. Higher costs and taxes will effectively see more businesses give up. The government has no out front this and also now has no borrowing power. Our children’s generation is ruined. To much think of the now and not the future. We could have at the very beginning invest billions in to the NHS And testing and had a first class health system rather than stupidly locking down, furlough schemes, eat out schemes, track and trace over and over. " Here's some information you might not like. Denmark began easing restrictions gradually and carefully on April 15. This was one month after implementing lockdown measures to contain the spread of the virus in the country. They had ONE MONTH of lockdown. I invite you to read "Europe Versus Coronavirus - Putting the Danish Model to the Test" It kicks all the claptrap peddled around social media in to touch. Any country that implemented the tried and tested means for combatting the spread of this virus did ok. This required an alert government and a population intelligent enough to realise that a stich in time saves nine. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Are young people villain's or heroes by trying to lead a normal life and mixing with their peers and in doing so establishing and building herd immunity. Which of course is mother nature's vaccine. " There is no difference between a group of 18-25 Yr old in a pub/Park etc and a group of 13-18 yr old school kids yet kids are back to school and college, they know for definite that groups of young people can carry and pass Covid yet have no concerns about public safety when it comes to schools. Younger people are the latest in useless propaganda to hide the government fuck ups like care homes and the government lack of help in this sector, add the job situation and Brexit this a just another smoke screen to take our minds off what's really happening. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This required an alert government and a population intelligent enough to realise that a stich in time saves nine." So much this. And the younger people aged 20-29 who are showing higher rates of virus - yes they’re more likely to go to pubs and restaurants - but they’re also more likely to work in them, to work in shops, to be in direct contact with the general population. And, yes they’re more social and have a less refined attitude towards risk. So I’d expect them to spike first, then pass it on. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Are young people villain's or heroes by trying to lead a normal life and mixing with their peers and in doing so establishing and building herd immunity. Which of course is mother nature's vaccine. There is no difference between a group of 18-25 Yr old in a pub/Park etc and a group of 13-18 yr old school kids yet kids are back to school and college, they know for definite that groups of young people can carry and pass Covid yet have no concerns about public safety when it comes to schools. Younger people are the latest in useless propaganda to hide the government fuck ups like care homes and the government lack of help in this sector, add the job situation and Brexit this a just another smoke screen to take our minds off what's really happening. " Education is necessary. Dicking around in a pub or park is not. I do not agree with how the government have handled it and they deserve the lion's share of the blame, but young people should take a look around them and make their pub quiz virtual for awhile. The hardship | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Are young people villain's or heroes by trying to lead a normal life and mixing with their peers and in doing so establishing and building herd immunity. Which of course is mother nature's vaccine. There is no difference between a group of 18-25 Yr old in a pub/Park etc and a group of 13-18 yr old school kids yet kids are back to school and college, they know for definite that groups of young people can carry and pass Covid yet have no concerns about public safety when it comes to schools. Younger people are the latest in useless propaganda to hide the government fuck ups like care homes and the government lack of help in this sector, add the job situation and Brexit this a just another smoke screen to take our minds off what's really happening. Education is necessary. Dicking around in a pub or park is not. I do not agree with how the government have handled it and they deserve the lion's share of the blame, but young people should take a look around them and make their pub quiz virtual for awhile. The hardship "Yeah let's face it. In all of human history, with all the terrible things that have happened to people over the world and through the ages, no-one has been as hard done by as we are now. I'd give anything to be in a huge crowd of people while I ignore them and chat to my friends on WhatsApp... | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This required an alert government and a population intelligent enough to realise that a stich in time saves nine. So much this. And the younger people aged 20-29 who are showing higher rates of virus - yes they’re more likely to go to pubs and restaurants - but they’re also more likely to work in them, to work in shops, to be in direct contact with the general population. And, yes they’re more social and have a less refined attitude towards risk. So I’d expect them to spike first, then pass it on. " Unfortunately they left school with no comman sence . All thay teach the kids is to pass exams. I was taught to sew when I was at school,as well as how to cook. Now thay leave with no life skills. This is the start of this country's problem. But you lot wont get it. Let's talk designer face masks. We understand that. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This required an alert government and a population intelligent enough to realise that a stich in time saves nine. So much this. And the younger people aged 20-29 who are showing higher rates of virus - yes they’re more likely to go to pubs and restaurants - but they’re also more likely to work in them, to work in shops, to be in direct contact with the general population. And, yes they’re more social and have a less refined attitude towards risk. So I’d expect them to spike first, then pass it on. Unfortunately they left school with no comman sence . All thay teach the kids is to pass exams. I was taught to sew when I was at school,as well as how to cook. Now thay leave with no life skills. This is the start of this country's problem. But you lot wont get it. Let's talk designer face masks. We understand that. " No life skills, no common sense. But they are masters on call of duty and experts on the lives of the Kardashian’s | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Heard the other day that young people refer to it as “the boomer remover “, in that it will kill off the baby boomer generation. Really!
Yep - little tinkers.
Don't think of Dominic Cummings as a young person.... but yes he did use words to that effect (allegedly).
Ah it's a DC quote is it.
Nope. Not a quote. That's why I said "words to that affect".
He argued for the opposite in fact.
Well if he did, he didn't do a very good job.
"On the contrary, he argued for lockdown, and we locked down. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I did a calculation at the beginning of this outbreak that showed with rate of infection we we seeing then, it would take 37 years for us to achieve 80% required for herd immunity. These infections WILL filter through to the elderly and with 12 million people in the UK over the age of 65, how many lives do you think they are putting at risk? No chance of a safe and test vaccine by We are told there will be a vaccine in early 2021, so how many people need to die because others aren't prepared to wait?. Love it. So we put all of normal life on hold because you’ve heard there is a vaccine coming. Funny i remember back in the early seventies reading that the vaccine for the common cold would soon be available. The progress with the Chaddox vaccine is out there for anyone interested in knowing the truth. They started production of the vaccine months ago so the day we get the green light we can start vaccinations. What I am seeing here is people providing themselves an alternate reality to justify their selfish behaviour. To say there will never be a vaccine flies in the face of all the information we are being given. While we may not be able to do everything we could in January, to say we need to "put our lives on hold" is another exaggeration to justify not following the rules." No chance of a vaccine by early 2021, you are kidding yourself, takes years to get right/part right | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Are young people villain's or heroes by trying to lead a normal life and mixing with their peers and in doing so establishing and building herd immunity. Which of course is mother nature's vaccine. " Selfish pricks, rules are rules and come world war 3 they better be on the front line. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I did a calculation at the beginning of this outbreak that showed with rate of infection we we seeing then, it would take 37 years for us to achieve 80% required for herd immunity. These infections WILL filter through to the elderly and with 12 million people in the UK over the age of 65, how many lives do you think they are putting at risk? No chance of a safe and test vaccine by We are told there will be a vaccine in early 2021, so how many people need to die because others aren't prepared to wait?. Love it. So we put all of normal life on hold because you’ve heard there is a vaccine coming. Funny i remember back in the early seventies reading that the vaccine for the common cold would soon be available. The progress with the Chaddox vaccine is out there for anyone interested in knowing the truth. They started production of the vaccine months ago so the day we get the green light we can start vaccinations. What I am seeing here is people providing themselves an alternate reality to justify their selfish behaviour. To say there will never be a vaccine flies in the face of all the information we are being given. While we may not be able to do everything we could in January, to say we need to "put our lives on hold" is another exaggeration to justify not following the rules. No chance of a vaccine by early 2021, you are kidding yourself, takes years to get right/part right" Very little. Not none. But doesn't change the way we control the virus. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Sweden got it right by letting life go on for young people and trusting public to do the "right thing". Unfortunately they, like us, failled to protect the care homes. Now they have low infection rates, a fairly healthy economy and civil liberties. Our government panicked and got it wrong from the very start. " Not according to the latest reports - they went for herd immunity but they are no where near achieving it despite the high death rate and the economy has still suffered. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Sweden got it right by letting life go on for young people and trusting public to do the "right thing". Unfortunately they, like us, failled to protect the care homes. Now they have low infection rates, a fairly healthy economy and civil liberties. Our government panicked and got it wrong from the very start. Not according to the latest reports - they went for herd immunity but they are no where near achieving it despite the high death rate and the economy has still suffered." I suspect all that Sweden has achieved is becoming the hero of virus deniers. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Sweden got it right by letting life go on for young people and trusting public to do the "right thing". Unfortunately they, like us, failled to protect the care homes. Now they have low infection rates, a fairly healthy economy and civil liberties. Our government panicked and got it wrong from the very start. " If I hear this one more time . . . Some Facts (not opinion) . . . England's population density is 1,010 people per square mile. Sweden's The population density in is 64 people per Square mile. United Kingdom is approximately 243,610 sq km, while Sweden is approximately 450,295 sq km, making Sweden 85% larger than United Kingdom. Scandinavians are BORN Socially Distant  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Sweden got it right by letting life go on for young people and trusting public to do the "right thing". Unfortunately they, like us, failled to protect the care homes. Now they have low infection rates, a fairly healthy economy and civil liberties. Our government panicked and got it wrong from the very start. " Some say panicked some others say they reacted too slow . Neither are correct! | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I did a calculation at the beginning of this outbreak that showed with rate of infection we we seeing then, it would take 37 years for us to achieve 80% required for herd immunity. These infections WILL filter through to the elderly and with 12 million people in the UK over the age of 65, how many lives do you think they are putting at risk? No chance of a safe and test vaccine by We are told there will be a vaccine in early 2021, so how many people need to die because others aren't prepared to wait?. Love it. So we put all of normal life on hold because you’ve heard there is a vaccine coming. Funny i remember back in the early seventies reading that the vaccine for the common cold would soon be available. The progress with the Chaddox vaccine is out there for anyone interested in knowing the truth. They started production of the vaccine months ago so the day we get the green light we can start vaccinations. What I am seeing here is people providing themselves an alternate reality to justify their selfish behaviour. To say there will never be a vaccine flies in the face of all the information we are being given. While we may not be able to do everything we could in January, to say we need to "put our lives on hold" is another exaggeration to justify not following the rules. No chance of a vaccine by early 2021, you are kidding yourself, takes years to get right/part right" Astrazeneca Chief Executive Pascal Soriot says end of the year is even possible. But what would he know? There has never been so much money been thrown at producing a vaccine and so many clever people assigned to one task. There is just so much information out there about this. The word is watching. There is no way that anyone who wants to know about progress of the vaccine can stay ignorant without willfully making it so. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Just human beings living a human life, as opposed to the pod people that the new normal crowd want us to become because they are joyless karen stasi wannabes" If people don't want to be reported by Karen's, stop doing things that will get them to report you. This reminds me of a speed awareness course my mate went on. Everyone who got caught is moaning about how shit it is, but no one takes responsibility for the fact their stupidity put them there. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| Post new Message to Thread |
| back to top |  |
