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"Before I start I understand this will not be a popular post with some, perhaps even with many. That is your right and I respect that. What I won't accept is abuse or threats for stating my opinion, it's mine and I'm every bit as entitled to it as you are to yours. Also, let me be clear I am in no way denying the existence or severity of Covid-19, it's clear that for some it can be a serious and potentially fatal disease. Equally, I have nothing but respect for the doctors, nurses & carers who have and continue to risk their lives caring for others. Now, with that said, let me move on to the point : it's time for us to end the lockdown. I am not suggesting everyone go out and be reckless, that would be stupid BUT I am suggesting it's time we did get out. It's time we started socializing properly again, started working properly again and started living our lives with as close to a reasonable degree of normality as is possible. Why? Because lockdown as a long term strategy does not work. It cannot work. It is doomed to fail by the very nature of human beings - we are social animals and without social contact our mental health declines rapidly. Without social interaction or society weakens, our economy falters and our lives lose purpose. Lockdown can delay the spread of this virus, it cannot stop it - at least not in the form that lockdown has been implemented here in the UK. Sooner or later the restrictions must end and when they do, the virus will return as surely as night follows day. The choices then are stark : - Continue to live in a heavily restricted, controlled and largely joyless world and watch as jobs disappear, mental health deteriorates and the virus continues it's slow but relentless advance. - End the lockdown, trust people to use their common sense and learn to manage the risk of the virus like we do every other risk we face every single day of our lives. Explain the facts, provide accurate and timely information on infection rates area by area and remove the financial disincentives for people to get tested & cooperate with self-isolation. Yes, the virus may spread more quickly but the fact remains that for the vast majority it does not produce serious illness. We must do our best to protect the vulnerable from infection but we cannot allow the desire to do so to become our only goal. The virus is not going away. It will be with us for months if not years. The only question left is what sort of a world will we allow this to become? It's time to trust adults to act like adults. To provide us with the information we need, free of spin and bias, to make informed decisions based on our own personal situations and act with the interests of ourselves AND our communities in mind. The lockdown has bought time. Time for us to improve our knowledge. Time for us to understand the risks. Time for us to factor those risks into our daily lives. It's bought time for us to learn. Now it's time to live. " Agree with you but the back slappers will be along soon enough on the thread  | |||
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"Thanks for such a great, well balanced post OP. Certainly thought provoking. " | |||
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"Op it's a fair point and shared by some on here and won't be by others and tbh no one should be getting nasty by sending you messages.. But perhaps you should be sending that to Sturgeon or boris..? " If I thought they'd actually listen I would but I'm afraid they are following their own agendas and really aren't overly interested in other views. | |||
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"Before I start I understand this will not be a popular post with some, perhaps even with many. That is your right and I respect that. What I won't accept is abuse or threats for stating my opinion, it's mine and I'm every bit as entitled to it as you are to yours. Also, let me be clear I am in no way denying the existence or severity of Covid-19, it's clear that for some it can be a serious and potentially fatal disease. Equally, I have nothing but respect for the doctors, nurses & carers who have and continue to risk their lives caring for others. Now, with that said, let me move on to the point : it's time for us to end the lockdown. I am not suggesting everyone go out and be reckless, that would be stupid BUT I am suggesting it's time we did get out. It's time we started socializing properly again, started working properly again and started living our lives with as close to a reasonable degree of normality as is possible. Why? Because lockdown as a long term strategy does not work. It cannot work. It is doomed to fail by the very nature of human beings - we are social animals and without social contact our mental health declines rapidly. Without social interaction or society weakens, our economy falters and our lives lose purpose. Lockdown can delay the spread of this virus, it cannot stop it - at least not in the form that lockdown has been implemented here in the UK. Sooner or later the restrictions must end and when they do, the virus will return as surely as night follows day. The choices then are stark : - Continue to live in a heavily restricted, controlled and largely joyless world and watch as jobs disappear, mental health deteriorates and the virus continues it's slow but relentless advance. - End the lockdown, trust people to use their common sense and learn to manage the risk of the virus like we do every other risk we face every single day of our lives. Explain the facts, provide accurate and timely information on infection rates area by area and remove the financial disincentives for people to get tested & cooperate with self-isolation. Yes, the virus may spread more quickly but the fact remains that for the vast majority it does not produce serious illness. We must do our best to protect the vulnerable from infection but we cannot allow the desire to do so to become our only goal. The virus is not going away. It will be with us for months if not years. The only question left is what sort of a world will we allow this to become? It's time to trust adults to act like adults. To provide us with the information we need, free of spin and bias, to make informed decisions based on our own personal situations and act with the interests of ourselves AND our communities in mind. The lockdown has bought time. Time for us to improve our knowledge. Time for us to understand the risks. Time for us to factor those risks into our daily lives. It's bought time for us to learn. Now it's time to live. " | |||
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"Before I start I understand this will not be a popular post with some, perhaps even with many. That is your right and I respect that. What I won't accept is abuse or threats for stating my opinion, it's mine and I'm every bit as entitled to it as you are to yours. Also, let me be clear I am in no way denying the existence or severity of Covid-19, it's clear that for some it can be a serious and potentially fatal disease. Equally, I have nothing but respect for the doctors, nurses & carers who have and continue to risk their lives caring for others. Now, with that said, let me move on to the point : it's time for us to end the lockdown. I am not suggesting everyone go out and be reckless, that would be stupid BUT I am suggesting it's time we did get out. It's time we started socializing properly again, started working properly again and started living our lives with as close to a reasonable degree of normality as is possible. Why? Because lockdown as a long term strategy does not work. It cannot work. It is doomed to fail by the very nature of human beings - we are social animals and without social contact our mental health declines rapidly. Without social interaction or society weakens, our economy falters and our lives lose purpose. Lockdown can delay the spread of this virus, it cannot stop it - at least not in the form that lockdown has been implemented here in the UK. Sooner or later the restrictions must end and when they do, the virus will return as surely as night follows day. The choices then are stark : - Continue to live in a heavily restricted, controlled and largely joyless world and watch as jobs disappear, mental health deteriorates and the virus continues it's slow but relentless advance. - End the lockdown, trust people to use their common sense and learn to manage the risk of the virus like we do every other risk we face every single day of our lives. Explain the facts, provide accurate and timely information on infection rates area by area and remove the financial disincentives for people to get tested & cooperate with self-isolation. Yes, the virus may spread more quickly but the fact remains that for the vast majority it does not produce serious illness. We must do our best to protect the vulnerable from infection but we cannot allow the desire to do so to become our only goal. The virus is not going away. It will be with us for months if not years. The only question left is what sort of a world will we allow this to become? It's time to trust adults to act like adults. To provide us with the information we need, free of spin and bias, to make informed decisions based on our own personal situations and act with the interests of ourselves AND our communities in mind. The lockdown has bought time. Time for us to improve our knowledge. Time for us to understand the risks. Time for us to factor those risks into our daily lives. It's bought time for us to learn. Now it's time to live. " Well said OP!! And whilst we’re stating unpopular ideas... can we take a bloody breathe before hitting the keyboard. Shouting your opinion and being rude or unkind doesn’t make your point any more valid. It just makes you appear rude. I am exhausted from all the shouting, lack of seeing things from other people’s perspective and outright madness that the digital world is full of right now. Please, be kind. Please take a moment to try and see someone else’s point of view. Be inquisitive. Be curious and learn. For me that’s what it means to be human.  | |||
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"Before I start I understand this will not be a popular post with some, perhaps even with many. That is your right and I respect that. What I won't accept is abuse or threats for stating my opinion, it's mine and I'm every bit as entitled to it as you are to yours. Also, let me be clear I am in no way denying the existence or severity of Covid-19, it's clear that for some it can be a serious and potentially fatal disease. Equally, I have nothing but respect for the doctors, nurses & carers who have and continue to risk their lives caring for others. Now, with that said, let me move on to the point : it's time for us to end the lockdown. I am not suggesting everyone go out and be reckless, that would be stupid BUT I am suggesting it's time we did get out. It's time we started socializing properly again, started working properly again and started living our lives with as close to a reasonable degree of normality as is possible. Why? Because lockdown as a long term strategy does not work. It cannot work. It is doomed to fail by the very nature of human beings - we are social animals and without social contact our mental health declines rapidly. Without social interaction or society weakens, our economy falters and our lives lose purpose. Lockdown can delay the spread of this virus, it cannot stop it - at least not in the form that lockdown has been implemented here in the UK. Sooner or later the restrictions must end and when they do, the virus will return as surely as night follows day. The choices then are stark : - Continue to live in a heavily restricted, controlled and largely joyless world and watch as jobs disappear, mental health deteriorates and the virus continues it's slow but relentless advance. - End the lockdown, trust people to use their common sense and learn to manage the risk of the virus like we do every other risk we face every single day of our lives. Explain the facts, provide accurate and timely information on infection rates area by area and remove the financial disincentives for people to get tested & cooperate with self-isolation. Yes, the virus may spread more quickly but the fact remains that for the vast majority it does not produce serious illness. We must do our best to protect the vulnerable from infection but we cannot allow the desire to do so to become our only goal. The virus is not going away. It will be with us for months if not years. The only question left is what sort of a world will we allow this to become? It's time to trust adults to act like adults. To provide us with the information we need, free of spin and bias, to make informed decisions based on our own personal situations and act with the interests of ourselves AND our communities in mind. The lockdown has bought time. Time for us to improve our knowledge. Time for us to understand the risks. Time for us to factor those risks into our daily lives. It's bought time for us to learn. Now it's time to live. " Completely agree! It’s time to move on! X | |||
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"Op it's a fair point and shared by some on here and won't be by others and tbh no one should be getting nasty by sending you messages.. But perhaps you should be sending that to Sturgeon or boris..? If I thought they'd actually listen I would but I'm afraid they are following their own agendas and really aren't overly interested in other views." Nothing new there then except when they want the tick in the box.. | |||
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"Yeah Its the common sense thing I have a problem with Alot of people are employing the " I'm alright Jack" stance And will continue to do so. Until they need a hospital bed And there arent any" I completely agree. There is no place or excuse for reckless, selfish behavior. Everyone needs to act sensibly but acting sensibly doesn't have to mean never doing anything/going anywhere/seeing anyone. What it means is we need to weigh the risk of what we're going to do for ourselves AND for our communities and act accordingly. As an example, instead of going down the pub every night go once a week. Have 100 guests at the wedding reception instead of 250... It's all about using common sense. We can't eliminate the risk, so we have to try to live with it and not let it rule our lives completely. | |||
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"Totally agree, well balanced post. It’s not palatable, but it’s totally true. We are living now in a country largely gripped by fear, and fear is our enemy now more than the virus. " Completely agree with this post too. Some people are paralyzed with fear. | |||
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"Before I start I understand this will not be a popular post with some, perhaps even with many. That is your right and I respect that. What I won't accept is abuse or threats for stating my opinion, it's mine and I'm every bit as entitled to it as you are to yours. Also, let me be clear I am in no way denying the existence or severity of Covid-19, it's clear that for some it can be a serious and potentially fatal disease. Equally, I have nothing but respect for the doctors, nurses & carers who have and continue to risk their lives caring for others. Now, with that said, let me move on to the point : it's time for us to end the lockdown. I am not suggesting everyone go out and be reckless, that would be stupid BUT I am suggesting it's time we did get out. It's time we started socializing properly again, started working properly again and started living our lives with as close to a reasonable degree of normality as is possible. Why? Because lockdown as a long term strategy does not work. It cannot work. It is doomed to fail by the very nature of human beings - we are social animals and without social contact our mental health declines rapidly. Without social interaction or society weakens, our economy falters and our lives lose purpose. Lockdown can delay the spread of this virus, it cannot stop it - at least not in the form that lockdown has been implemented here in the UK. Sooner or later the restrictions must end and when they do, the virus will return as surely as night follows day. The choices then are stark : - Continue to live in a heavily restricted, controlled and largely joyless world and watch as jobs disappear, mental health deteriorates and the virus continues it's slow but relentless advance. - End the lockdown, trust people to use their common sense and learn to manage the risk of the virus like we do every other risk we face every single day of our lives. Explain the facts, provide accurate and timely information on infection rates area by area and remove the financial disincentives for people to get tested & cooperate with self-isolation. Yes, the virus may spread more quickly but the fact remains that for the vast majority it does not produce serious illness. We must do our best to protect the vulnerable from infection but we cannot allow the desire to do so to become our only goal. The virus is not going away. It will be with us for months if not years. The only question left is what sort of a world will we allow this to become? It's time to trust adults to act like adults. To provide us with the information we need, free of spin and bias, to make informed decisions based on our own personal situations and act with the interests of ourselves AND our communities in mind. The lockdown has bought time. Time for us to improve our knowledge. Time for us to understand the risks. Time for us to factor those risks into our daily lives. It's bought time for us to learn. Now it's time to live. Completely agree! It’s time to move on! X" Agree entirely, as an NHS worker, folk just need to be balanced and sensible, my real worry is a few months ahead, for the flu season, we are already planning for this. I am very proud of the collaboration within various sectors of the NHS,put aside our divisions and differences and are working together to keep our patients as safe as we can,unprecedented times call for unprecedented measures. We have learnt lessons that will never leave us | |||
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"Yeah Its the common sense thing I have a problem with Alot of people are employing the " I'm alright Jack" stance And will continue to do so. Until they need a hospital bed And there arent any" Agree with main post generally. People with lack of common sense is the challenge we all face. The dangerous people who have been wanting to shag their way through lockdown, I'm sure many here have received numerous invites to meet like we have, will spoil it for the rest. There's plenty more eejits that aren't on here who will help bring it back stronger next time. I'm in a home shielding someone who is extremly vulnerable and as a result I'm perhaps a little paranoid. Any personal abuse is not acceptable though. | |||
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"Yeah Its the common sense thing I have a problem with Alot of people are employing the " I'm alright Jack" stance And will continue to do so. Until they need a hospital bed And there arent any I completely agree. There is no place or excuse for reckless, selfish behavior. Everyone needs to act sensibly but acting sensibly doesn't have to mean never doing anything/going anywhere/seeing anyone. What it means is we need to weigh the risk of what we're going to do for ourselves AND for our communities and act accordingly. As an example, instead of going down the pub every night go once a week. Have 100 guests at the wedding reception instead of 250... It's all about using common sense. We can't eliminate the risk, so we have to try to live with it and not let it rule our lives completely." Totally agree but sorry to bring things back to reality, there are many people who don't possess common sense, selflessness or the integrity to not act with reckless abandonment.. A&E units on a typical pre lockdown most weekends are testimony to that, police officers and others see it day in and day out and we can all name one or more families and individuals who are a nightmare.. The government had to do something and the numbers in the last few weeks would have been out of control had they not locked down, tbh I think they should have gone sooner and more like Italy and Spain as did Denmark and perhaps we might have been a lot more forward with easing it and a lot less deaths due to it and because of the knock on of it.. | |||
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"Before I start I understand this will not be a popular post with some, perhaps even with many. That is your right and I respect that. What I won't accept is abuse or threats for stating my opinion, it's mine and I'm every bit as entitled to it as you are to yours. Also, let me be clear I am in no way denying the existence or severity of Covid-19, it's clear that for some it can be a serious and potentially fatal disease. Equally, I have nothing but respect for the doctors, nurses & carers who have and continue to risk their lives caring for others. Now, with that said, let me move on to the point : it's time for us to end the lockdown. I am not suggesting everyone go out and be reckless, that would be stupid BUT I am suggesting it's time we did get out. It's time we started socializing properly again, started working properly again and started living our lives with as close to a reasonable degree of normality as is possible. Why? Because lockdown as a long term strategy does not work. It cannot work. It is doomed to fail by the very nature of human beings - we are social animals and without social contact our mental health declines rapidly. Without social interaction or society weakens, our economy falters and our lives lose purpose. Lockdown can delay the spread of this virus, it cannot stop it - at least not in the form that lockdown has been implemented here in the UK. Sooner or later the restrictions must end and when they do, the virus will return as surely as night follows day. The choices then are stark : - Continue to live in a heavily restricted, controlled and largely joyless world and watch as jobs disappear, mental health deteriorates and the virus continues it's slow but relentless advance. - End the lockdown, trust people to use their common sense and learn to manage the risk of the virus like we do every other risk we face every single day of our lives. Explain the facts, provide accurate and timely information on infection rates area by area and remove the financial disincentives for people to get tested & cooperate with self-isolation. Yes, the virus may spread more quickly but the fact remains that for the vast majority it does not produce serious illness. We must do our best to protect the vulnerable from infection but we cannot allow the desire to do so to become our only goal. The virus is not going away. It will be with us for months if not years. The only question left is what sort of a world will we allow this to become? It's time to trust adults to act like adults. To provide us with the information we need, free of spin and bias, to make informed decisions based on our own personal situations and act with the interests of ourselves AND our communities in mind. The lockdown has bought time. Time for us to improve our knowledge. Time for us to understand the risks. Time for us to factor those risks into our daily lives. It's bought time for us to learn. Now it's time to live. " Jesus OP you shouldn't be here, this post is far to sensible. | |||
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"Before I start I understand this will not be a popular post with some, perhaps even with many. That is your right and I respect that. What I won't accept is abuse or threats for stating my opinion, it's mine and I'm every bit as entitled to it as you are to yours. Also, let me be clear I am in no way denying the existence or severity of Covid-19, it's clear that for some it can be a serious and potentially fatal disease. Equally, I have nothing but respect for the doctors, nurses & carers who have and continue to risk their lives caring for others. Now, with that said, let me move on to the point : it's time for us to end the lockdown. I am not suggesting everyone go out and be reckless, that would be stupid BUT I am suggesting it's time we did get out. It's time we started socializing properly again, started working properly again and started living our lives with as close to a reasonable degree of normality as is possible. Why? Because lockdown as a long term strategy does not work. It cannot work. It is doomed to fail by the very nature of human beings - we are social animals and without social contact our mental health declines rapidly. Without social interaction or society weakens, our economy falters and our lives lose purpose. Lockdown can delay the spread of this virus, it cannot stop it - at least not in the form that lockdown has been implemented here in the UK. Sooner or later the restrictions must end and when they do, the virus will return as surely as night follows day. The choices then are stark : - Continue to live in a heavily restricted, controlled and largely joyless world and watch as jobs disappear, mental health deteriorates and the virus continues it's slow but relentless advance. - End the lockdown, trust people to use their common sense and learn to manage the risk of the virus like we do every other risk we face every single day of our lives. Explain the facts, provide accurate and timely information on infection rates area by area and remove the financial disincentives for people to get tested & cooperate with self-isolation. Yes, the virus may spread more quickly but the fact remains that for the vast majority it does not produce serious illness. We must do our best to protect the vulnerable from infection but we cannot allow the desire to do so to become our only goal. The virus is not going away. It will be with us for months if not years. The only question left is what sort of a world will we allow this to become? It's time to trust adults to act like adults. To provide us with the information we need, free of spin and bias, to make informed decisions based on our own personal situations and act with the interests of ourselves AND our communities in mind. The lockdown has bought time. Time for us to improve our knowledge. Time for us to understand the risks. Time for us to factor those risks into our daily lives. It's bought time for us to learn. Now it's time to live. Completely agree! It’s time to move on! X Agree entirely, as an NHS worker, folk just need to be balanced and sensible, my real worry is a few months ahead, for the flu season, we are already planning for this. I am very proud of the collaboration within various sectors of the NHS,put aside our divisions and differences and are working together to keep our patients as safe as we can,unprecedented times call for unprecedented measures. We have learnt lessons that will never leave us" We are proud of you all (NHS) for sure. Always get the flu jab and have been following all of whatever there is to follow. Stay safe but don’t be afraid - there is a bigger picture we need to look at also x | |||
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"Very interesting Sadly the only bit I would take issue with in your statement is ' trust people to use common sense' If this virus has proved anything it's that common sense is far from common. Simple instructions seem to have bewildered so many." Exactly Common sense is over ridden by " I'm ok. My family is ok. I want to go out" | |||
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"Before I start I understand this will not be a popular post with some, perhaps even with many. That is your right and I respect that. What I won't accept is abuse or threats for stating my opinion, it's mine and I'm every bit as entitled to it as you are to yours. Also, let me be clear I am in no way denying the existence or severity of Covid-19, it's clear that for some it can be a serious and potentially fatal disease. Equally, I have nothing but respect for the doctors, nurses & carers who have and continue to risk their lives caring for others. Now, with that said, let me move on to the point : it's time for us to end the lockdown. I am not suggesting everyone go out and be reckless, that would be stupid BUT I am suggesting it's time we did get out. It's time we started socializing properly again, started working properly again and started living our lives with as close to a reasonable degree of normality as is possible. Why? Because lockdown as a long term strategy does not work. It cannot work. It is doomed to fail by the very nature of human beings - we are social animals and without social contact our mental health declines rapidly. Without social interaction or society weakens, our economy falters and our lives lose purpose. Lockdown can delay the spread of this virus, it cannot stop it - at least not in the form that lockdown has been implemented here in the UK. Sooner or later the restrictions must end and when they do, the virus will return as surely as night follows day. The choices then are stark : - Continue to live in a heavily restricted, controlled and largely joyless world and watch as jobs disappear, mental health deteriorates and the virus continues it's slow but relentless advance. - End the lockdown, trust people to use their common sense and learn to manage the risk of the virus like we do every other risk we face every single day of our lives. Explain the facts, provide accurate and timely information on infection rates area by area and remove the financial disincentives for people to get tested & cooperate with self-isolation. Yes, the virus may spread more quickly but the fact remains that for the vast majority it does not produce serious illness. We must do our best to protect the vulnerable from infection but we cannot allow the desire to do so to become our only goal. The virus is not going away. It will be with us for months if not years. The only question left is what sort of a world will we allow this to become? It's time to trust adults to act like adults. To provide us with the information we need, free of spin and bias, to make informed decisions based on our own personal situations and act with the interests of ourselves AND our communities in mind. The lockdown has bought time. Time for us to improve our knowledge. Time for us to understand the risks. Time for us to factor those risks into our daily lives. It's bought time for us to learn. Now it's time to live. Well said OP!! And whilst we’re stating unpopular ideas... can we take a bloody breathe before hitting the keyboard. Shouting your opinion and being rude or unkind doesn’t make your point any more valid. It just makes you appear rude. I am exhausted from all the shouting, lack of seeing things from other people’s perspective and outright madness that the digital world is full of right now. Please, be kind. Please take a moment to try and see someone else’s point of view. Be inquisitive. Be curious and learn. For me that’s what it means to be human. "Totally agree ,l’m finding it mentally wearing now all the negativity and shaming of people ,even if they are following the current guide lines and venturing outside some people seem to think even this is irresponsible x | |||
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"Yeah Totally agree but sorry to bring things back to reality, there are many people who don't possess common sense, selflessness or the integrity to not act with reckless abandonment.. A&E units on a typical pre lockdown most weekends are testimony to that, police officers and others see it day in and day out and we can all name one or more families and individuals who are a nightmare.. The government had to do something and the numbers in the last few weeks would have been out of control had they not locked down, tbh I think they should have gone sooner and more like Italy and Spain as did Denmark and perhaps we might have been a lot more forward with easing it and a lot less deaths due to it and because of the knock on of it.. " I've seen my share of idiots over the years, I have most certainly not led a sheltered life! Fact is, these idiots are still idiots, lockdown or not. These are the idiots who've been having parties, breaking laws and generally acting like jackasses all through this. Lockdown sadly hasn't made an idiot any less of an idiot. Thankfully they are relatively few in actual number despite the amount of noise they make so their impact really shouldn't be overly significant. In fact, there's even the possibility that pressure for others within society not to put everyone else at risk might just help change their ways... | |||
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"Yeah Totally agree but sorry to bring things back to reality, there are many people who don't possess common sense, selflessness or the integrity to not act with reckless abandonment.. A&E units on a typical pre lockdown most weekends are testimony to that, police officers and others see it day in and day out and we can all name one or more families and individuals who are a nightmare.. The government had to do something and the numbers in the last few weeks would have been out of control had they not locked down, tbh I think they should have gone sooner and more like Italy and Spain as did Denmark and perhaps we might have been a lot more forward with easing it and a lot less deaths due to it and because of the knock on of it.. I've seen my share of idiots over the years, I have most certainly not led a sheltered life! Fact is, these idiots are still idiots, lockdown or not. These are the idiots who've been having parties, breaking laws and generally acting like jackasses all through this. Lockdown sadly hasn't made an idiot any less of an idiot. Thankfully they are relatively few in actual number despite the amount of noise they make so their impact really shouldn't be overly significant. In fact, there's even the possibility that pressure for others within society not to put everyone else at risk might just help change their ways..." Yep very true those idiots will never learn. Problem is when more good people are out and about those idiots have a greater impact on spreading the virus. We need far greater punishment for such people | |||
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"OP, what do you suggest we do going forward with public transport? What are your thoughts on mass gatherings?" Public transport is difficult because it's unavoidable for many, however as the lockdown has shown it's avoidable for far more than we thought. Home working & flexible start/finish times are a possible answer but ultimately it'll be down to staff and employers to have reasonable discussions about how best to manage the risk - no employer wants their workplace closed for two weeks because someone got exposed to Covid on the bus... Mass gatherings are perhaps one area where regulation should remain, at least for a while. There are apparently lower risks of transmission outdoors but there's also evidence the large events have helped spread the virus. Personally, I'd say events over 500 really aren't viable in the short to medium term. | |||
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"Your post is generally sound I think where the problem will arise is removing furlough I don't think the government did us any favours being so generous and I did imagine that the chancellor would have announced a faster and steeper reduction. Every week our economy remains slower than our neighbors will make recovery much harder If and when there is another seasonal spike it probably won't involve anything like the lockdown we are coming out of, probably just social rather than work restrictions. It's up to all of US to make it work, using all the possible means available like wearing face coverings (no matter how useless some people think it is) and using a tracking app if it ever works, and I've said it before, there absolutely must be massive fines for people who try to go about their normal business whilst knowing they have symptoms." I quite intentionally and deliberately avoided the furlough scheme and economic impacts of lockdown in my post because I feel they are actually of secondary importance now. The damage economically has largely been done and is unlikely to get any worse in the immediate future. The societal and mental damage on the other hand is worsening daily and will only accelerate the longer lockdown continues. The impending recession will pose it's own problems for society which will be bad enough even if they are only following those already created by lockdown, combining the two would be utterly catastrophic. Furlough has it's place in supporting people's ability to manage the risk they face once lockdown ends. Some will not be comfortable or able to immediately return to work and we need to support them. Not indefinitely, but certainly for long enough for them to find ways of managing their risk that work for their situation. I do agree with you though, it is very much up to all of us to make it work by behaving sensibly and considering not just ourselves and our families but the wider community as well when making decision.s | |||
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"Yeah Totally agree but sorry to bring things back to reality, there are many people who don't possess common sense, selflessness or the integrity to not act with reckless abandonment.. A&E units on a typical pre lockdown most weekends are testimony to that, police officers and others see it day in and day out and we can all name one or more families and individuals who are a nightmare.. The government had to do something and the numbers in the last few weeks would have been out of control had they not locked down, tbh I think they should have gone sooner and more like Italy and Spain as did Denmark and perhaps we might have been a lot more forward with easing it and a lot less deaths due to it and because of the knock on of it.. I've seen my share of idiots over the years, I have most certainly not led a sheltered life! Fact is, these idiots are still idiots, lockdown or not. These are the idiots who've been having parties, breaking laws and generally acting like jackasses all through this. Lockdown sadly hasn't made an idiot any less of an idiot. Thankfully they are relatively few in actual number despite the amount of noise they make so their impact really shouldn't be overly significant. In fact, there's even the possibility that pressure for others within society not to put everyone else at risk might just help change their ways..." Didn't say you had led a sheltered life nor inferred it.. Idiots will as you say still be so, have dealt with them and their consequences for too long and my honest view is they will never change although thankfully they are a minority.. | |||
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"Before I start I understand this will not be a popular post with some, perhaps even with many. That is your right and I respect that. What I won't accept is abuse or threats for stating my opinion, it's mine and I'm every bit as entitled to it as you are to yours. Also, let me be clear I am in no way denying the existence or severity of Covid-19, it's clear that for some it can be a serious and potentially fatal disease. Equally, I have nothing but respect for the doctors, nurses & carers who have and continue to risk their lives caring for others. Now, with that said, let me move on to the point : it's time for us to end the lockdown. I am not suggesting everyone go out and be reckless, that would be stupid BUT I am suggesting it's time we did get out. It's time we started socializing properly again, started working properly again and started living our lives with as close to a reasonable degree of normality as is possible. Why? Because lockdown as a long term strategy does not work. It cannot work. It is doomed to fail by the very nature of human beings - we are social animals and without social contact our mental health declines rapidly. Without social interaction or society weakens, our economy falters and our lives lose purpose. Lockdown can delay the spread of this virus, it cannot stop it - at least not in the form that lockdown has been implemented here in the UK. Sooner or later the restrictions must end and when they do, the virus will return as surely as night follows day. The choices then are stark : - Continue to live in a heavily restricted, controlled and largely joyless world and watch as jobs disappear, mental health deteriorates and the virus continues it's slow but relentless advance. - End the lockdown, trust people to use their common sense and learn to manage the risk of the virus like we do every other risk we face every single day of our lives. Explain the facts, provide accurate and timely information on infection rates area by area and remove the financial disincentives for people to get tested & cooperate with self-isolation. Yes, the virus may spread more quickly but the fact remains that for the vast majority it does not produce serious illness. We must do our best to protect the vulnerable from infection but we cannot allow the desire to do so to become our only goal. The virus is not going away. It will be with us for months if not years. The only question left is what sort of a world will we allow this to become? It's time to trust adults to act like adults. To provide us with the information we need, free of spin and bias, to make informed decisions based on our own personal situations and act with the interests of ourselves AND our communities in mind. The lockdown has bought time. Time for us to improve our knowledge. Time for us to understand the risks. Time for us to factor those risks into our daily lives. It's bought time for us to learn. Now it's time to live. " Entirely agree Either that or build a wall test everyone ones who are immune or have had it on one side ones who ain't on other Least most of us can carry on living | |||
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"Your post is generally sound I think where the problem will arise is removing furlough I don't think the government did us any favours being so generous and I did imagine that the chancellor would have announced a faster and steeper reduction. Every week our economy remains slower than our neighbors will make recovery much harder If and when there is another seasonal spike it probably won't involve anything like the lockdown we are coming out of, probably just social rather than work restrictions. It's up to all of US to make it work, using all the possible means available like wearing face coverings (no matter how useless some people think it is) and using a tracking app if it ever works, and I've said it before, there absolutely must be massive fines for people who try to go about their normal business whilst knowing they have symptoms." I have potentially good news for you here. We had one of our best days ever for enquiries today and will naturally have to take people off furlough if these turn into sales. I imagine we are surely not the only ones. | |||
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 ) when things go back to normal and they have their life back and don’t have to suffer it personally anymore
call me a cynic  | |||
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"do you know what i wonder how long it will take people to stop caring about other peoples mental health and checking in on their single friends (because we are social animals that need human contact remember ) when things go back to normal and they have their life back and don’t have to suffer it personally anymore
Lots of people suffering for sure mentally and it’s a terrible thing - messaging this because of lots of people in various situations I know - mental health is crucial and I feel for all
call me a cynic " | |||
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"do you know what i wonder how long it will take people to stop caring about other peoples mental health and checking in on their single friends (because we are social animals that need human contact remember ) when things go back to normal and they have their life back and don’t have to suffer it personally anymore
Lots of people suffering for sure mentally and it’s a terrible thing - messaging this because of lots of people in various situations I know - mental health is crucial and I feel for all
call me a cynic "i just suspect that once its not a catchphrase to help them get their freedom back, many will go back to their busy lives and their friends/ family members who live in almost social isolation or suffer from depression even when there isn’t lockdown will go right back our of their thoughts | |||
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"do you know what i wonder how long it will take people to stop caring about other peoples mental health and checking in on their single friends (because we are social animals that need human contact remember ) when things go back to normal and they have their life back and don’t have to suffer it personally anymore
Lots of people suffering for sure mentally and it’s a terrible thing - messaging this because of lots of people in various situations I know - mental health is crucial and I feel for all
call me a cynic
i just suspect that once its not a catchphrase to help them get their freedom back, many will go back to their busy lives and their friends/ family members who live in almost social isolation or suffer from depression even when there isn’t lockdown will go right back our of their thoughts "I can't argue with anything you have wrote. It's going to take a lot longer than 3 months of a partial lock down to see a mass societal shift in peoples values. | |||
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" I am not suggesting everyone go out and be reckless, that would be stupid BUT I am suggesting it's time we did get out. It's time we started socializing properly again, started working properly again " Take socialising and working properly again out of the lockdown scenario then that's the entire lockdown ended | |||
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"Before I start I understand this will not be a popular post with some, perhaps even with many. That is your right and I respect that. What I won't accept is abuse or threats for stating my opinion, it's mine and I'm every bit as entitled to it as you are to yours. Also, let me be clear I am in no way denying the existence or severity of Covid-19, it's clear that for some it can be a serious and potentially fatal disease. Equally, I have nothing but respect for the doctors, nurses & carers who have and continue to risk their lives caring for others. Now, with that said, let me move on to the point : it's time for us to end the lockdown. I am not suggesting everyone go out and be reckless, that would be stupid BUT I am suggesting it's time we did get out. It's time we started socializing properly again, started working properly again and started living our lives with as close to a reasonable degree of normality as is possible. Why? Because lockdown as a long term strategy does not work. It cannot work. It is doomed to fail by the very nature of human beings - we are social animals and without social contact our mental health declines rapidly. Without social interaction or society weakens, our economy falters and our lives lose purpose. Lockdown can delay the spread of this virus, it cannot stop it - at least not in the form that lockdown has been implemented here in the UK. Sooner or later the restrictions must end and when they do, the virus will return as surely as night follows day. The choices then are stark : - Continue to live in a heavily restricted, controlled and largely joyless world and watch as jobs disappear, mental health deteriorates and the virus continues it's slow but relentless advance. - End the lockdown, trust people to use their common sense and learn to manage the risk of the virus like we do every other risk we face every single day of our lives. Explain the facts, provide accurate and timely information on infection rates area by area and remove the financial disincentives for people to get tested & cooperate with self-isolation. Yes, the virus may spread more quickly but the fact remains that for the vast majority it does not produce serious illness. We must do our best to protect the vulnerable from infection but we cannot allow the desire to do so to become our only goal. The virus is not going away. It will be with us for months if not years. The only question left is what sort of a world will we allow this to become? It's time to trust adults to act like adults. To provide us with the information we need, free of spin and bias, to make informed decisions based on our own personal situations and act with the interests of ourselves AND our communities in mind. The lockdown has bought time. Time for us to improve our knowledge. Time for us to understand the risks. Time for us to factor those risks into our daily lives. It's bought time for us to learn. Now it's time to live. " Who says that lockdown should go on forever? We all want to get back to normal. "Time to live" is speech making. I don't think that our government has done what is required to allow this to happen. It took one person to start this epidemic. It will take one person to start it again. We have had months, but we still do not have the test, track and trace system in place to pick up on reinfections. That would have allowed us to be more relaxed biut we don't have it so it needs to be "joyless" with continued physical distancing in place. Pretending that we can behave as previously will lead to a second wave. On the evidence of Dominic Cummings and the "end of lockdown" parties that have been going on I'm afraid that "common sense" and "intuition" do not seem to cut it. Once we have a functioning monitoring system things will improve but any government authority has now been severely undermined. We'll see I guess. There's no choice. At least the majority are not pretending that there is no problem. | |||
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"Everywhere is opening up except England. The govt obviously want to bankrupt more businesses and create lots more unemployed. End lockdown!" Why? | |||
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"Before I start I understand this will not be a popular post with some, perhaps even with many. That is your right and I respect that. What I won't accept is abuse or threats for stating my opinion, it's mine and I'm every bit as entitled to it as you are to yours. Also, let me be clear I am in no way denying the existence or severity of Covid-19, it's clear that for some it can be a serious and potentially fatal disease. Equally, I have nothing but respect for the doctors, nurses & carers who have and continue to risk their lives caring for others. Now, with that said, let me move on to the point : it's time for us to end the lockdown. I am not suggesting everyone go out and be reckless, that would be stupid BUT I am suggesting it's time we did get out. It's time we started socializing properly again, started working properly again and started living our lives with as close to a reasonable degree of normality as is possible. Why? Because lockdown as a long term strategy does not work. It cannot work. It is doomed to fail by the very nature of human beings - we are social animals and without social contact our mental health declines rapidly. Without social interaction or society weakens, our economy falters and our lives lose purpose. Lockdown can delay the spread of this virus, it cannot stop it - at least not in the form that lockdown has been implemented here in the UK. Sooner or later the restrictions must end and when they do, the virus will return as surely as night follows day. The choices then are stark : - Continue to live in a heavily restricted, controlled and largely joyless world and watch as jobs disappear, mental health deteriorates and the virus continues it's slow but relentless advance. - End the lockdown, trust people to use their common sense and learn to manage the risk of the virus like we do every other risk we face every single day of our lives. Explain the facts, provide accurate and timely information on infection rates area by area and remove the financial disincentives for people to get tested & cooperate with self-isolation. Yes, the virus may spread more quickly but the fact remains that for the vast majority it does not produce serious illness. We must do our best to protect the vulnerable from infection but we cannot allow the desire to do so to become our only goal. The virus is not going away. It will be with us for months if not years. The only question left is what sort of a world will we allow this to become? It's time to trust adults to act like adults. To provide us with the information we need, free of spin and bias, to make informed decisions based on our own personal situations and act with the interests of ourselves AND our communities in mind. The lockdown has bought time. Time for us to improve our knowledge. Time for us to understand the risks. Time for us to factor those risks into our daily lives. It's bought time for us to learn. Now it's time to live. "  | |||
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"Everywhere is opening up except England. The govt obviously want to bankrupt more businesses and create lots more unemployed. End lockdown!" Scotland is still closed our lock down has not ended yet | |||
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"Worldwide population 7.8 billion Covid deaths world wide 358000 Although high its a minor percentage 5.5 million recovered I'm sure social distancing can't remain much longer other countries are opening up we will follow The virus will be with us like every other killer disease we will just learn to cope Im sure other countries are worried as what will happen when flights start from UK And no way an airport will be able to social distance can you imagine the ques onto the motor ways and that's before customs " You seem to be posting this everywhere you can. The death and infection rate has remained at the level that it has because there has been a global effort to control its spread and huge medical resource diverted to deal with it. Do you really not understand that if nothing had been done those numbers would be completely different? Do you really not get that this started from a single source and it can again if you believe that we can behave exactly as we did before? | |||
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"Worldwide population 7.8 billion Covid deaths world wide 358000 Although high its a minor percentage 5.5 million recovered I'm sure social distancing can't remain much longer other countries are opening up we will follow The virus will be with us like every other killer disease we will just learn to cope Im sure other countries are worried as what will happen when flights start from UK And no way an airport will be able to social distance can you imagine the ques onto the motor ways and that's before customs " It's alright if you or your loved ones aren't on the 358000 list I suppose. | |||
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"Why do people say ? this? Everybody is touched by death at some point in their lives by various means & times. Everybody will at some point die. That's a fact even if "you" don't like it & as unfortunate as it may seem. " Given the opportunity most people make strenuous efforts to avoid it don't they? Are you suggesting that they shouldn't? | |||
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"Why do people say ? this? Everybody is touched by death at some point in their lives by various means & times. Everybody will at some point die. That's a fact even if "you" don't like it & as unfortunate as it may seem. Given the opportunity most people make strenuous efforts to avoid it don't they? Are you suggesting that they shouldn't?" There's omitting risk & then there's saying people shouldn't die at all. Death can't be avoided, it's a certainty for us all. | |||
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"Why do people say ? this? Everybody is touched by death at some point in their lives by various means & times. Everybody will at some point die. That's a fact even if "you" don't like it & as unfortunate as it may seem. Given the opportunity most people make strenuous efforts to avoid it don't they? Are you suggesting that they shouldn't? There's omitting risk & then there's saying people shouldn't die at all. Death can't be avoided, it's a certainty for us all. " Who's suggested that? There is a way to minimise the risk of death or serious illness from this particular virus. Having failed the initial containment using test, track and trace we go to plan B. Isolation until infection rates have fallen with social distancing. Test, track and trace then slow return with social distancing maintained until the monitoring system is functioning efficiently. Any objection to that? | |||
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"Every worker should be allowed to go back to work PERIOD!" They will be. In time. Do you think that Covid-19 does not exist, because your posts seem to indicate that it is not an issue for anyone, other than it being a Chinese/WHO conspiracy to infect everyone on the planet  | |||
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" Who's suggested that? There is a way to minimise the risk of death or serious illness from this particular virus. Having failed the initial containment using test, track and trace we go to plan B. Isolation until infection rates have fallen with social distancing. Test, track and trace then slow return with social distancing maintained until the monitoring system is functioning efficiently. Any objection to that?" Yes there is an objection. You are, in my opinion at least, misjudging the level of risk involved in maintainimg strict suppression measures and the risk of the virus itself. You said it yourself - given the opportunity most people make strenuous efforts to avoid illness and death. Given that you'd have to have been living under a rock with earplugs and a blindfold not to know how this virus spreads by now is it really so unreasonable to trust people do their best to avoid catching it? There is a point at which the risk from the suppression measures exceeds the risk from the virus. I believe we've reached that point now. Let's not lose sight of the fact that covid is not a death sentence for the vast majority, even if they do become ill. Thats not to say we shouldn't be wary of it and try to avoid it but we shoildn't let fear of it obscure rational judgement either. | |||
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"Have up after the first 3 paragraphs as all seemed a little confrontational. Anyone care to summarise?" Whiny person who doesn't like lockdown declares themselves an expert in epidemiologiy and insists we should give up science in favour of quackery. HTH | |||
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" Who's suggested that? There is a way to minimise the risk of death or serious illness from this particular virus. Having failed the initial containment using test, track and trace we go to plan B. Isolation until infection rates have fallen with social distancing. Test, track and trace then slow return with social distancing maintained until the monitoring system is functioning efficiently. Any objection to that? Yes there is an objection. You are, in my opinion at least, misjudging the level of risk involved in maintainimg strict suppression measures and the risk of the virus itself. You said it yourself - given the opportunity most people make strenuous efforts to avoid illness and death. Given that you'd have to have been living under a rock with earplugs and a blindfold not to know how this virus spreads by now is it really so unreasonable to trust people do their best to avoid catching it? There is a point at which the risk from the suppression measures exceeds the risk from the virus. I believe we've reached that point now. Let's not lose sight of the fact that covid is not a death sentence for the vast majority, even if they do become ill. Thats not to say we shouldn't be wary of it and try to avoid it but we shoildn't let fear of it obscure rational judgement either." It is irrational to have an effectively functioning test, track and trace system in place before relaxing physical distancing rules? It is irrational to employ the systems used by the countries that have most effectively minimised infction and mortality rates in their populations? Do explain. Your preferred option is to end lockdown now and hope for the best that people are "sensible" and use their "intuition"? | |||
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"Why do people say ? this? Everybody is touched by death at some point in their lives by various means & times. Everybody will at some point die. That's a fact even if "you" don't like it & as unfortunate as it may seem. Given the opportunity most people make strenuous efforts to avoid it don't they? Are you suggesting that they shouldn't? There's omitting risk & then there's saying people shouldn't die at all. Death can't be avoided, it's a certainty for us all. Who's suggested that? There is a way to minimise the risk of death or serious illness from this particular virus. Having failed the initial containment using test, track and trace we go to plan B. Isolation until infection rates have fallen with social distancing. Test, track and trace then slow return with social distancing maintained until the monitoring system is functioning efficiently. Any objection to that?" Death is death & happens through various forms, this virus is just one of them out of thousands of potential causes. The root problem of how this virus spread so fast round the world means our activities are at fault entirely. The problems are bigger than 1 virus & many more will come unless we change or methods of living. Flying = travels viruses, bacteria's over far distances in short period of time + pollution issues Industrial farming = deforestation & coming in closer contact to wild animals by destroying their homes. Global trade readily available = air pollution, water pollution, land degrading, mining, child labour, raw materials exposure such as sulfur & cobalt etc All these things kill millions every day & not just humans. This virus is just another means to the inexhaustible list of ways to die. Yet a permanent lockdown is not feasible, history itself should mass amounts of people will only obey as long as they fear repercussions, one there is no fear they will revolt against restrictions, such as many in my areas are no longer giving a monkeys with social distancing & are now visiting despite the rule changes don't come in until Friday. There is many a way to buy local, grow some of your own & travel less that are more beneficial in the long term than a sudden revert back to the "normal", we already knew that lifestyle was gonna go bust, just won't listen. | |||
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"Before I start I understand this will not be a popular post with some, perhaps even with many. That is your right and I respect that. What I won't accept is abuse or threats for stating my opinion, it's mine and I'm every bit as entitled to it as you are to yours. Also, let me be clear I am in no way denying the existence or severity of Covid-19, it's clear that for some it can be a serious and potentially fatal disease. Equally, I have nothing but respect for the doctors, nurses & carers who have and continue to risk their lives caring for others. Now, with that said, let me move on to the point : it's time for us to end the lockdown. I am not suggesting everyone go out and be reckless, that would be stupid BUT I am suggesting it's time we did get out. It's time we started socializing properly again, started working properly again and started living our lives with as close to a reasonable degree of normality as is possible. Why? Because lockdown as a long term strategy does not work. It cannot work. It is doomed to fail by the very nature of human beings - we are social animals and without social contact our mental health declines rapidly. Without social interaction or society weakens, our economy falters and our lives lose purpose. Lockdown can delay the spread of this virus, it cannot stop it - at least not in the form that lockdown has been implemented here in the UK. Sooner or later the restrictions must end and when they do, the virus will return as surely as night follows day. The choices then are stark : - Continue to live in a heavily restricted, controlled and largely joyless world and watch as jobs disappear, mental health deteriorates and the virus continues it's slow but relentless advance. - End the lockdown, trust people to use their common sense and learn to manage the risk of the virus like we do every other risk we face every single day of our lives. Explain the facts, provide accurate and timely information on infection rates area by area and remove the financial disincentives for people to get tested & cooperate with self-isolation. Yes, the virus may spread more quickly but the fact remains that for the vast majority it does not produce serious illness. We must do our best to protect the vulnerable from infection but we cannot allow the desire to do so to become our only goal. The virus is not going away. It will be with us for months if not years. The only question left is what sort of a world will we allow this to become? It's time to trust adults to act like adults. To provide us with the information we need, free of spin and bias, to make informed decisions based on our own personal situations and act with the interests of ourselves AND our communities in mind. The lockdown has bought time. Time for us to improve our knowledge. Time for us to understand the risks. Time for us to factor those risks into our daily lives. It's bought time for us to learn. Now it's time to live. " but who has learnt, i agree entirely with your analogy but what have we learnt except as usual to point the finger lol | |||
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"Why do people say ? this? Everybody is touched by death at some point in their lives by various means & times. Everybody will at some point die. That's a fact even if "you" don't like it & as unfortunate as it may seem. Given the opportunity most people make strenuous efforts to avoid it don't they? Are you suggesting that they shouldn't? There's omitting risk & then there's saying people shouldn't die at all. Death can't be avoided, it's a certainty for us all. Who's suggested that? There is a way to minimise the risk of death or serious illness from this particular virus. Having failed the initial containment using test, track and trace we go to plan B. Isolation until infection rates have fallen with social distancing. Test, track and trace then slow return with social distancing maintained until the monitoring system is functioning efficiently. Any objection to that? Death is death & happens through various forms, this virus is just one of them out of thousands of potential causes. The root problem of how this virus spread so fast round the world means our activities are at fault entirely. The problems are bigger than 1 virus & many more will come unless we change or methods of living. Flying = travels viruses, bacteria's over far distances in short period of time + pollution issues Industrial farming = deforestation & coming in closer contact to wild animals by destroying their homes. Global trade readily available = air pollution, water pollution, land degrading, mining, child labour, raw materials exposure such as sulfur & cobalt etc All these things kill millions every day & not just humans. This virus is just another means to the inexhaustible list of ways to die. Yet a permanent lockdown is not feasible, history itself should mass amounts of people will only obey as long as they fear repercussions, one there is no fear they will revolt against restrictions, such as many in my areas are no longer giving a monkeys with social distancing & are now visiting despite the rule changes don't come in until Friday. There is many a way to buy local, grow some of your own & travel less that are more beneficial in the long term than a sudden revert back to the "normal", we already knew that lifestyle was gonna go bust, just won't listen. " Your points are certainly valid. Have I said anything to contradict them? So, once again, who is saying anything about a permanent lockdown? Do you actually disagree with any of the points made about test, track and trace and maintaining physical distancing until these processes are working? Your proposal requires a complete change of life. Not a return to normal as the OP seems to be suggesting. | |||
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"I will be happy when things begin to return to normal like they have in Spain " The reason they have got back to normal in Spain so quickly is that they had a proper lock down, much harsher than the few restrictions we had. | |||
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"Again 7.8 billion people world wide 370000 deaths 5.5 million people recovered God knows how many had it and not known Not sure what the death rate to people world wide is in percentage but u seem to know everything so tell us cause I make it less than 0.01 % Which is a lot better odds than surviving cancer Cause there will be a second wave and prob a third but we will cope as we did before Hospitals were never stretched nightingales in London closed 3 weeks after opening and bham never even opened I don't object to social distancing but its hard to do the job I do which is none of your business much of the time 2 metres away from someone else as for masks it's part of our ppe all year so last thing I wanna do is wear one out too They do only last roughly an hour constant use an if your putting it on n off then your contaminating it with ur hands Mask will only protect someone if you have it stops u coughing n sneezing on them To stop vapour being breathed in a rubber type mask with correct filters would be needed like used where leginella bacteria is found Wearing a mask with stubble is another no no as it doesn't seal so protects no one I will be happy when things begin to return to normal like they have in Spain Don't supposed you booked holiday this year Imagine trying to social distance at an airport check in que would be backed up onto m25 not to mention customs jeez Then in lounges and that's before you board and your shoulder touches the next guy for the next 4 hours Really can't be bothered arguing with such negative people that are nieve and have probably sat at home throughout all this why others such as myself and partner have had to work through regardless If you think social distancing should remain for the next 3 years prob best to take yourself off Fab and buy a monkey spanker cause sex involves kissing and close proximity " well said | |||
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"Again 7.8 billion people world wide 370000 deaths 5.5 million people recovered God knows how many had it and not known Not sure what the death rate to people world wide is in percentage but u seem to know everything so tell us cause I make it less than 0.01 % Which is a lot better odds than surviving cancer Cause there will be a second wave and prob a third but we will cope as we did before Hospitals were never stretched nightingales in London closed 3 weeks after opening and bham never even opened I don't object to social distancing but its hard to do the job I do which is none of your business much of the time 2 metres away from someone else as for masks it's part of our ppe all year so last thing I wanna do is wear one out too They do only last roughly an hour constant use an if your putting it on n off then your contaminating it with ur hands Mask will only protect someone if you have it stops u coughing n sneezing on them To stop vapour being breathed in a rubber type mask with correct filters would be needed like used where leginella bacteria is found Wearing a mask with stubble is another no no as it doesn't seal so protects no one I will be happy when things begin to return to normal like they have in Spain Don't supposed you booked holiday this year Imagine trying to social distance at an airport check in que would be backed up onto m25 not to mention customs jeez Then in lounges and that's before you board and your shoulder touches the next guy for the next 4 hours Really can't be bothered arguing with such negative people that are nieve and have probably sat at home throughout all this why others such as myself and partner have had to work through regardless If you think social distancing should remain for the next 3 years prob best to take yourself off Fab and buy a monkey spanker cause sex involves kissing and close proximity well said" Yes well said indeed. | |||
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"Again 7.8 billion people world wide 370000 deaths 5.5 million people recovered God knows how many had it and not known Not sure what the death rate to people world wide is in percentage but u seem to know everything so tell us cause I make it less than 0.01 % Which is a lot better odds than surviving cancer Cause there will be a second wave and prob a third but we will cope as we did before Hospitals were never stretched nightingales in London closed 3 weeks after opening and bham never even opened I don't object to social distancing but its hard to do the job I do which is none of your business much of the time 2 metres away from someone else as for masks it's part of our ppe all year so last thing I wanna do is wear one out too They do only last roughly an hour constant use an if your putting it on n off then your contaminating it with ur hands Mask will only protect someone if you have it stops u coughing n sneezing on them To stop vapour being breathed in a rubber type mask with correct filters would be needed like used where leginella bacteria is found Wearing a mask with stubble is another no no as it doesn't seal so protects no one I will be happy when things begin to return to normal like they have in Spain Don't supposed you booked holiday this year Imagine trying to social distance at an airport check in que would be backed up onto m25 not to mention customs jeez Then in lounges and that's before you board and your shoulder touches the next guy for the next 4 hours Really can't be bothered arguing with such negative people that are nieve and have probably sat at home throughout all this why others such as myself and partner have had to work through regardless If you think social distancing should remain for the next 3 years prob best to take yourself off Fab and buy a monkey spanker cause sex involves kissing and close proximity well said" Yes well said indeed. | |||
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"I will be happy when things begin to return to normal like they have in Spain The reason they have got back to normal in Spain so quickly is that they had a proper lock down, much harsher than the few restrictions we had. " That's not true Regardless of what they did in the past now its what they do in the future. They still have infections so it's not defeated, like the UK and the rest of the world we slowed it down for a while, that's all. | |||
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"I will be happy when things begin to return to normal like they have in Spain The reason they have got back to normal in Spain so quickly is that they had a proper lock down, much harsher than the few restrictions we had. " That would be the lockdown so effective the number infected per 1m population is twice that of the UK? The lockdown that has seen an almost identical death rate per 1m population as the uk? The lockdown that still saw over 800 new cases yesterday & 200 deaths after close to 4 months? Not such a rosey picture after all, is it? | |||
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"I will be happy when things begin to return to normal like they have in Spain The reason they have got back to normal in Spain so quickly is that they had a proper lock down, much harsher than the few restrictions we had. That would be the lockdown so effective the number infected per 1m population is twice that of the UK? The lockdown that has seen an almost identical death rate per 1m population as the uk? The lockdown that still saw over 800 new cases yesterday & 200 deaths after close to 4 months? Not such a rosey picture after all, is it?" The number of deaths reported in Spain yesterday has to do with their new reporting system, there was an adjustment over the weekend which was done incorrectly and yesterday's figures were the readjustment. Spain has reported 50 Covid 19 deaths in the 7 days up to Monday. Approximately 7 a day on a rolling 7 day average compared to the UK's 243. They registered only 194, not 800 new cases. They do currently have a slightly higher deaths per million rate than the UK but I'm not sure that will remain the case by the time we have got to their stage. A much rosier picture than the UK. | |||
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"I will be happy when things begin to return to normal like they have in Spain The reason they have got back to normal in Spain so quickly is that they had a proper lock down, much harsher than the few restrictions we had. That's not true Regardless of what they did in the past now its what they do in the future. They still have infections so it's not defeated, like the UK and the rest of the world we slowed it down for a while, that's all." It is true, their lock down was far harsher than ours, people had to apply for a pass for one person per household to go out shopping once a week, and they were allowed out for only a certain amount of time. There was no hour a day daily exercise for them. | |||
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"Before I start I understand this will not be a popular post with some, perhaps even with many. That is your right and I respect that. What I won't accept is abuse or threats for stating my opinion, it's mine and I'm every bit as entitled to it as you are to yours. Also, let me be clear I am in no way denying the existence or severity of Covid-19, it's clear that for some it can be a serious and potentially fatal disease. Equally, I have nothing but respect for the doctors, nurses & carers who have and continue to risk their lives caring for others. Now, with that said, let me move on to the point : it's time for us to end the lockdown. I am not suggesting everyone go out and be reckless, that would be stupid BUT I am suggesting it's time we did get out. It's time we started socializing properly again, started working properly again and started living our lives with as close to a reasonable degree of normality as is possible. Why? Because lockdown as a long term strategy does not work. It cannot work. It is doomed to fail by the very nature of human beings - we are social animals and without social contact our mental health declines rapidly. Without social interaction or society weakens, our economy falters and our lives lose purpose. Lockdown can delay the spread of this virus, it cannot stop it - at least not in the form that lockdown has been implemented here in the UK. Sooner or later the restrictions must end and when they do, the virus will return as surely as night follows day. The choices then are stark : - Continue to live in a heavily restricted, controlled and largely joyless world and watch as jobs disappear, mental health deteriorates and the virus continues it's slow but relentless advance. - End the lockdown, trust people to use their common sense and learn to manage the risk of the virus like we do every other risk we face every single day of our lives. Explain the facts, provide accurate and timely information on infection rates area by area and remove the financial disincentives for people to get tested & cooperate with self-isolation. Yes, the virus may spread more quickly but the fact remains that for the vast majority it does not produce serious illness. We must do our best to protect the vulnerable from infection but we cannot allow the desire to do so to become our only goal. The virus is not going away. It will be with us for months if not years. The only question left is what sort of a world will we allow this to become? It's time to trust adults to act like adults. To provide us with the information we need, free of spin and bias, to make informed decisions based on our own personal situations and act with the interests of ourselves AND our communities in mind. The lockdown has bought time. Time for us to improve our knowledge. Time for us to understand the risks. Time for us to factor those risks into our daily lives. It's bought time for us to learn. Now it's time to live. " Enjoyed reading... I believe in people making their own decisions now. Lockdown has been long enough x | |||
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"Again 7.8 billion people world wide 370000 deaths 5.5 million people recovered God knows how many had it and not known Not sure what the death rate to people world wide is in percentage but u seem to know everything so tell us cause I make it less than 0.01 % Which is a lot better odds than surviving cancer Cause there will be a second wave and prob a third but we will cope as we did before Hospitals were never stretched nightingales in London closed 3 weeks after opening and bham never even opened I don't object to social distancing but its hard to do the job I do which is none of your business much of the time 2 metres away from someone else as for masks it's part of our ppe all year so last thing I wanna do is wear one out too They do only last roughly an hour constant use an if your putting it on n off then your contaminating it with ur hands Mask will only protect someone if you have it stops u coughing n sneezing on them To stop vapour being breathed in a rubber type mask with correct filters would be needed like used where leginella bacteria is found Wearing a mask with stubble is another no no as it doesn't seal so protects no one I will be happy when things begin to return to normal like they have in Spain Don't supposed you booked holiday this year Imagine trying to social distance at an airport check in que would be backed up onto m25 not to mention customs jeez Then in lounges and that's before you board and your shoulder touches the next guy for the next 4 hours Really can't be bothered arguing with such negative people that are nieve and have probably sat at home throughout all this why others such as myself and partner have had to work through regardless If you think social distancing should remain for the next 3 years prob best to take yourself off Fab and buy a monkey spanker cause sex involves kissing and close proximity " You appear to have better information than epidimioligists and the WHO. Perhaps you should consider another career? You seem to be claiming that Covid-19 has a lower mortality rate than seasonal flu which is 0.1% 100x370,000/(5,500,000+370,000) = 6.3% The actual estimated mortality rate is 0.3% Mortality rates for cancer range between 2% and 99% depending on the type. Hospitals really have been stretched. Ask a doctor or a nurse. The fact that the Nightingales were not used is in part because there was insufficient staff. There is a national shortage of critical care nurses. They are also set-up with pulmonary intensive care facilities but the virus is actually causing multiple organ failure so they are unfortunately not appropriately equipped. You could have found this out yourself but you're welcome. I have no interest in what your job is but I appreciate you informing me that it's none of my business. Thank you. You, personally, do not want to where a mask out so that's what the rules should be then? I Understand also that you resent that you may be prevented from coughing and sneezing on people. I don't mind offering people that courtesy though if it helps for a time. I am delighted that physical distancing is acceptable to you though. Not sure what your point is about flying except that it will be difficult to manage. Well spotted. At no point have I said that social distancing should be maintained for three years. I said until an effective track and trace system is in place. At that point it may be possible to relax the rules. Several countries are experimenting with this now so we could learn from this bettter than we did at the start of the outbreak. I have "worked through" as well but that makes no difference to the validity of my position or yours. I am not "negative", I'm simply looking at the actual information available rather than your made up stuff. Equally "being Positive" makes no odds to a virus. | |||
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"there are deaths that will be caused by covid-19 and there are deaths that will be caused by a global depression. No one wants anyone to die - we just disagree on which will kill more" Your position on this is ambiguous as it's not clear to whom you are replying, so these questions are open: Do you think that there will not be a depression if lock-down is ended immediately without restrictions? Do you think that there would not have been one if it was allowed to run unchecked? Do you think there wouldn't have been one if the stock market was allowed to continue to pump into the mega-bubble that it is without a pandemic even occuring? I'll take the depression with more lives saved, although you could probably save a bit of money with fewer mouths to feed... | |||
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"there are deaths that will be caused by covid-19 and there are deaths that will be caused by a global depression. No one wants anyone to die - we just disagree on which will kill more Your position on this is ambiguous as it's not clear to whom you are replying, so these questions are open: Do you think that there will not be a depression if lock-down is ended immediately without restrictions? Do you think that there would not have been one if it was allowed to run unchecked? Do you think there wouldn't have been one if the stock market was allowed to continue to pump into the mega-bubble that it is without a pandemic even occuring? I'll take the depression with more lives saved, although you could probably save a bit of money with fewer mouths to feed..." 36 million americans have been thrust into poverty - there are reports of suicide rates spiking. More suicides in 4 weeks than previous 12 months | |||
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"Before I start I understand this will not be a popular post with some, perhaps even with many. That is your right and I respect that. What I won't accept is abuse or threats for stating my opinion, it's mine and I'm every bit as entitled to it as you are to yours. Also, let me be clear I am in no way denying the existence or severity of Covid-19, it's clear that for some it can be a serious and potentially fatal disease. Equally, I have nothing but respect for the doctors, nurses & carers who have and continue to risk their lives caring for others. Now, with that said, let me move on to the point : it's time for us to end the lockdown. I am not suggesting everyone go out and be reckless, that would be stupid BUT I am suggesting it's time we did get out. It's time we started socializing properly again, started working properly again and started living our lives with as close to a reasonable degree of normality as is possible. Why? Because lockdown as a long term strategy does not work. It cannot work. It is doomed to fail by the very nature of human beings - we are social animals and without social contact our mental health declines rapidly. Without social interaction or society weakens, our economy falters and our lives lose purpose. Lockdown can delay the spread of this virus, it cannot stop it - at least not in the form that lockdown has been implemented here in the UK. Sooner or later the restrictions must end and when they do, the virus will return as surely as night follows day. The choices then are stark : - Continue to live in a heavily restricted, controlled and largely joyless world and watch as jobs disappear, mental health deteriorates and the virus continues it's slow but relentless advance. - End the lockdown, trust people to use their common sense and learn to manage the risk of the virus like we do every other risk we face every single day of our lives. Explain the facts, provide accurate and timely information on infection rates area by area and remove the financial disincentives for people to get tested & cooperate with self-isolation. Yes, the virus may spread more quickly but the fact remains that for the vast majority it does not produce serious illness. We must do our best to protect the vulnerable from infection but we cannot allow the desire to do so to become our only goal. The virus is not going away. It will be with us for months if not years. The only question left is what sort of a world will we allow this to become? It's time to trust adults to act like adults. To provide us with the information we need, free of spin and bias, to make informed decisions based on our own personal situations and act with the interests of ourselves AND our communities in mind. The lockdown has bought time. Time for us to improve our knowledge. Time for us to understand the risks. Time for us to factor those risks into our daily lives. It's bought time for us to learn. Now it's time to live. " Agree with you OP | |||
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"Yeah Its the common sense thing I have a problem with Alot of people are employing the " I'm alright Jack" stance And will continue to do so. Until they need a hospital bed And there arent any" Great points OP but this here singular point is the issue. The assumption that adults will be sensible. Take fab four instance, people are clearly still meeting even when they say otherwise. Imagine if there was no mandated lockdown. What thinking about as well imo... | |||
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"Saw this on the Internet. Quarantine is the restriction of movement of sick people. Tyranny is the restriction of movement of healthy people." | |||
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"As for hospitals being stretched to capacity its a fact they haven't that comes straight from a ward sisters mouth they were even sending nurses home half way through shifts because of lack of work" We have pretty much stopped all elective activity due to Covid 19, this would mean that nurses who work in say, an orthopaedic ward, might have little to do. In one of the few hospitals that don't suffer from a nursing shortage this might result in some nurses being sent home. "Nightingales were equipped and one in London was used for 3 weeks bham hasn't recieved a patient yet Because hospitals haven't needed to use as have coped with the capacity of covid patients also info comes from a Dr friend working on covid ward" Nightingales were equipped but weren't staffed appropriately. You can have all the ventilators in the world but you can't use them if you don't have the appropriately trained staff. The Nightingale in London refused to take more than 50 patients in one night unless the hospitals sending them provided their own teams to look after them. Again, hospitals coped because all other work was cancelled, acute doctors (I know quite a few) are renowned for working in their own little bubbles and not taking into account systems as a whole, they have to do so because they are specialists, not generalists. "A lot of nurses are peed off with way media has portrayed hospitals being over run" Not the ones I have spoken to, or those I've seen on the news. Could you define 'a lot' in numbers please? "And many hospitals have continued to provide routine MRI scans xrays and treatments throughout another fact" They have indeed, at a much reduced rate. If someone requires regular scans due to cancer or other progressive illnesses you can't simply not provide them, what you have to do is ensure there is a physical route to enter the department that does not go near a Covid area, or hire mobile scanners to sit outside the hospital building, as a few of the hospitals I work with have done. Hospitals can cope with Covid 19, so long as they do hardly anything else. | |||
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"My facts come from the covid website and the world meters It's a fact that there's 7.8 billion people worldwide and fact that WHO says 370000 have died so how can that be 0.3%, its a lot lower do the maths I never said I wanted to sneeze on people surely if you was closer than 2 metres and didn't have a mask on you wouldn't just stand there and sneeze onto the person Only an oxy moron would think that Many people have beards or stubble fact and when that's the case no half mask will provide protection as no proper seal is probided We would all have to wear airfed breathers another fact" Your interpretation of "facts" from "the covid website" and the worldometers is very special then. There are little hyperlinks at the top of the page marked "Deathrate" and "Transmission". Try pressing them. Infection and mortality rates are completely different things. You cannot die of a disease that you have not caught
If you are in a bus or train or shop, which direction do you turn and not sneeze over something or someone? Facial hair is a marginal difference compared to not. Mask wearing is to contain the majority of droplet spread from you in an enclosed space.
You are looking for reasons not to wear a mask. We have already established that, but don't try to falsely justify your actions. Take responsibility for just not wanting to because it reminds you of work.
Look up oxymoron. | |||
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"Yeah Its the common sense thing I have a problem with Alot of people are employing the " I'm alright Jack" stance And will continue to do so. Until they need a hospital bed And there arent any Great points OP but this here singular point is the issue. The assumption that adults will be sensible. Take fab four instance, people are clearly still meeting even when they say otherwise. Imagine if there was no mandated lockdown. What thinking about as well imo... "There will always be some idiots & the few who can't see past their own selfish noses but they are, thankfully, the minority. The get a lot of attention, far more than they really deserve, which makes them seem far more numerous and threatening than they really are but in reality we'd all be pretty hard pressed to actually name anyone within our social circle who qualifies. Further, if their behaviour is really so detrimental to society as a whole they'll find themselves shunned and isolated anyway - most people struggle to put up with idiots at the best of times, when their activites could potentially have serious consequences I very much suspect they'll find what little tolerance there was vanishes very quickky indeed. | |||
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"Saw this on the Internet. Quarantine is the restriction of movement of sick people. Tyranny is the restriction of movement of healthy people." Nice catchphrase, but meaningless. This quote came from anti-lockdown protestors, many of whom were carrying weapons. Several of these protests have subsequently Les to infection clusters. There's some significant irony on both counts no? There is a lack of testing and many people with the virus are asymptomatic but still spreading it. So, until we have an effective process in place we are minimising transmission to those who are vulnerable. That's also why we have laws about how to drive or not to murder people. They are "tyranny" too but with the intent to minimise harm. | |||
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"Yeah Its the common sense thing I have a problem with Alot of people are employing the " I'm alright Jack" stance And will continue to do so. Until they need a hospital bed And there arent any Great points OP but this here singular point is the issue. The assumption that adults will be sensible. Take fab four instance, people are clearly still meeting even when they say otherwise. Imagine if there was no mandated lockdown. What thinking about as well imo...
There will always be some idiots & the few who can't see past their own selfish noses but they are, thankfully, the minority. The get a lot of attention, far more than they really deserve, which makes them seem far more numerous and threatening than they really are but in reality we'd all be pretty hard pressed to actually name anyone within our social circle who qualifies.
Further, if their behaviour is really so detrimental to society as a whole they'll find themselves shunned and isolated anyway - most people struggle to put up with idiots at the best of times, when their activites could potentially have serious consequences I very much suspect they'll find what little tolerance there was vanishes very quickky indeed."You have just made this up. It's an assertion. Over the course of the last few days I have seen a number of parties with guests arriving and hugging and kissing as usual. You cannot "shun" someone selfish in an enclosed space when they sneeze. Again, has anybody suggested a permanent lockdown? Do you actually have an objection to maintaining physical distancing and mask wearing in confined areas until there is an effective track and trace system in place? You are very selective in what you choose to answer. | |||
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"i'm anti lockdown btw because i think the only point of going into lockdown is to stay in lockdown till you get a vaccine. I think in 99% of cases the people who die of covid will have died of it with or without a lockdown. Lockdown will just give the elderly who would have died of it now a few more months when they will die of it in the winter" The point of lockdown is to prevent the healthcare system from collapsing. You come out when you have an effective system of test, track and trace. Are you aware of South Korea, Taiwan and Germany? They decided not to allow people to die of it now and aren't keen for them to die of it in the winter either. Funnily enough many other countries and individuals have a similar view. | |||
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"there are deaths that will be caused by covid-19 and there are deaths that will be caused by a global depression. No one wants anyone to die - we just disagree on which will kill more Your position on this is ambiguous as it's not clear to whom you are replying, so these questions are open: Do you think that there will not be a depression if lock-down is ended immediately without restrictions? Do you think that there would not have been one if it was allowed to run unchecked? Do you think there wouldn't have been one if the stock market was allowed to continue to pump into the mega-bubble that it is without a pandemic even occuring? I'll take the depression with more lives saved, although you could probably save a bit of money with fewer mouths to feed... 36 million americans have been thrust into poverty - there are reports of suicide rates spiking. More suicides in 4 weeks than previous 12 months" You haven't actually addressed the point at all. I do not doubt that there have been increased suicides. Any idea how many compared to Covid-19 deaths? I do not doubt that a depression will also lead to terrible hardship and death. Do you think there would be a better economic outcome if the virus is allowed to spread unchecked? Do you think that there would not have been a serious economic downturn anyway with the debt driven expansion of the global economy based primarily on ludicrous stock valuations. Perhaps you have not given it much thought or the answer is not acceptable to your argument, hence ignoring it? | |||
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" Infection and mortality rates are completely different things. You cannot die of a disease that you have not caught
If you are in a bus or train or shop, which direction do you turn and not sneeze over something or someone? Facial hair is a marginal difference compared to not. Mask wearing is to contain the majority of droplet spread from you in an enclosed space.
"It's generally accepted that it's impossible to accurate calculate the mortality rate of a disease during a pandemic so either of you could be right or you could both be wrong, we just don't know. The accepted 'best guess' is that Covid kills around 1 - 2% of those it infects (most docummets use 1.5% at present) which is more than flu but less than other serious illnesses. Again, I stress that we just don't know for sure, hence why I won't argue over mortality risk - the information just isn't there. As regards masks, there is a very important distinction between respirators (powered or otherwise) and masks. Respirators need a skin-tight seal to the face and if properly fitted & specified will protect the wearer from catching the disiease by directly breathin in contaminated air. This is what is used in hospitals and is primarily intended to protect the wearer. Masks, including surgical masks, do not require a skin tight seal and will not give protection from infection to the wearer but they will significantly reduce the risk of the wearer infecting others. Respirators cannot be worn properly unless cleanshaven, masks can be. | |||
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" You have just made this up. It's an assertion. Over the course of the last few days I have seen a number of parties with guests arriving and hugging and kissing as usual. You cannot "shun" someone selfish in an enclosed space when they sneeze. Again, has anybody suggested a permanent lockdown? Do you actually have an objection to maintaining physical distancing and mask wearing in confined areas until there is an effective track and trace system in place? You are very selective in what you choose to answer." I'm selective in as much as I have other things I need to do and won't spend all my time on here arguing. Of course it's an assertion, that is what an opinion is - someone's view. I never claimed otherwise. What's wronng with people kissing & hugging, it's part of what makes us human. If you choose not to because it doesn't fit your risk profile, that's fine. You don't have to mix with them if you don't want to. In *public* spaces where it's not possible to always maintain distance from others I see value in everyone wearing a mask. As for social distancing it too has a place. It's sensible in public. It's a good idea not to be in close proximity to large numbers of strangers you don't trust. From the very beginning I've said we need to trust people to use common sense and assess for themselves the risk they feel is appropriate for them and thier community. You just provided the perfect example... Is there a risk in going to a party, kissing and hugging as usual, yes. How big a risk, well that depends - How big's the party? How well do I know the people attending? How many parties have I been to? Am I routinely exposing vulnerable people if I get ill? Am I especially vulnerable? Some people will look at the risk and say, no, I'm not going. Some will say I'll go to this party but not the other three I've been invited to. Some will say I'll go but limit my interactions to my close friends. A few will say 'sod it' and go to every party on offer. The few will find that they become well known and hosts may well decide not to invite them in future because they don't fit the host's risk profile. People are actually very good at managing risk, once they know what the risk is. And yes, several have indicated that lockdown will be maintained indefinately in some form (as recently as yesterday's government briefing if I'm not mistaken). | |||
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"People are actually very good at managing risk, once they know what the risk is." Whilst I agree with the ultimate conclusion of your argument - eventually, we're going to have to maintain our humanity by adapting to a new set of circumstances, the above statement is - sadly - untrue. They know what the risks are in the United States. They are, very clearly, not managing it well. There are many other examples of how poorly humans assess even known risks. Even those with common sense. | |||
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" You have just made this up. It's an assertion. Over the course of the last few days I have seen a number of parties with guests arriving and hugging and kissing as usual. You cannot "shun" someone selfish in an enclosed space when they sneeze. Again, has anybody suggested a permanent lockdown? Do you actually have an objection to maintaining physical distancing and mask wearing in confined areas until there is an effective track and trace system in place? You are very selective in what you choose to answer. I'm selective in as much as I have other things I need to do and won't spend all my time on here arguing. Of course it's an assertion, that is what an opinion is - someone's view. I never claimed otherwise. What's wronng with people kissing & hugging, it's part of what makes us human. If you choose not to because it doesn't fit your risk profile, that's fine. You don't have to mix with them if you don't want to. In *public* spaces where it's not possible to always maintain distance from others I see value in everyone wearing a mask. As for social distancing it too has a place. It's sensible in public. It's a good idea not to be in close proximity to large numbers of strangers you don't trust. From the very beginning I've said we need to trust people to use common sense and assess for themselves the risk they feel is appropriate for them and thier community. You just provided the perfect example... Is there a risk in going to a party, kissing and hugging as usual, yes. How big a risk, well that depends - How big's the party? How well do I know the people attending? How many parties have I been to? Am I routinely exposing vulnerable people if I get ill? Am I especially vulnerable? Some people will look at the risk and say, no, I'm not going. Some will say I'll go to this party but not the other three I've been invited to. Some will say I'll go but limit my interactions to my close friends. A few will say 'sod it' and go to every party on offer. The few will find that they become well known and hosts may well decide not to invite them in future because they don't fit the host's risk profile. People are actually very good at managing risk, once they know what the risk is. And yes, several have indicated that lockdown will be maintained indefinately in some form (as recently as yesterday's government briefing if I'm not mistaken). " So you are now talking specifically about wanting to go to swingers parties. That's a rather different discussion to the country in general. As a matter of fact it is not actually possible to not "mix with them if you don't want to" if they are asymptomatic and outside. A "permanent" lockdown is dependent on people's abilities to being sensible or not. Are you saying if infection rates rise again no action should be taken? Ultimately you don't appear to have a problem with maintaining physical distancing and wearing masks or continuing this caution at least until there is an effective test, track and trace system. So what do you actually want that isn't happening already? Quite frankly Dominic Cummings has demonstrated exactly where "common sense" and "instinct" takes you when there are clear, unambiguous guidelines in place. | |||
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" So you are now talking specifically about wanting to go to swingers parties. That's a rather different discussion to the country in general. " That is clearly not what I said, and I'll point out that it was you who mentioned parties, I simply used the secnario you introduced as an example. I'm going to end this now, as you are clearly looking for an argument and I know better than be lured into one. | |||
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"So we should all do as most others do wear a mask for shopping then tuck it under your chin when we get back into the car as everyone seems to do I've even seen carers driving past with it on their chin Or remove it once in the car an leave it on the dash for another day Once worn it's useless and needs disposing off correctly not thrown on the floor like many do Inc used gloves An I never said I wasn't wearing one in enclosed spaces outside of work I said I didn't want to there is a difference I simply agreed with original post that we need to start to reduce the social distancing soon not sure when but it can't continue forever As for you rubbishing my facts Check them 5.5 million have tested positive for corona and have either survived with mild symptoms or had non 375000 have died so if you convert that to a % it's a lot lower than 0.3% or can't u do the maths I'll ask you a question when do you think social distancing should start easing" Masks are just to stop you from infecting other people. If you are alone in the car who are you infecting? Go home and put them in the washing machine. I am perfectly aware of what you said. You don't want to wear it, so please do not try to justify your personal preference with non-existent supporting information when it's just a preference. Just say you don't want to wear it and you don't care about the effect on anyone else. Once again, nobody has said that we should not relax the lock down rules and social distancing over time. Why are you continuing to imply that anyone has? I wrote out the maths on your figures earlier. Here it is again or you can use your magic maths to create a differentr number: 100x370,000/(5,500,000+370,000) = 6.3% The actual estimated mortality rate is 0.3% The answer to your question which I have written multiple times is that physical distancing should be relaxed when there is an effective test, track and trace system is in place. Like in the countries with the lowest infection and mortality rates. Learning from those who have dealt with this the best. Do you object to that? You can answer that with yes or no. The government had months to do this, but because it is now so centrally managed by BoJo-Cummings with nobody else able to make decisions it is only capable of doing one thing at a time. What will the purpose of this lockdown period be if we go out and start spreading the infection again unchecked? | |||
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" So you are now talking specifically about wanting to go to swingers parties. That's a rather different discussion to the country in general. That is clearly not what I said, and I'll point out that it was you who mentioned parties, I simply used the secnario you introduced as an example. I'm going to end this now, as you are clearly looking for an argument and I know better than be lured into one." Understood. I misenterpreted your reference. That appears to be a convenient pretext to disengage though. The points still stands: If people choose to ignore the rules you cannot you cannot avoid mixing with them. Dominic Cummings has provided you with evidence of "common sense" with very clear guidelines. "Common sense" applied with unambiguous guidelines will prove significantly less well observed. Relaxation of rules will be far less risky to the population if we have an effective test, track and trace system in place. We have learned that from the countries with the lowest infection and mortality rates but have failed to impliment it yet. As you have agreed with continued physical distancing and mask wearing in confined public spaces, what do you actually want other than a desire to return to normal which you have acknowledged cannot happen? | |||
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"There isn't enough police to police any of it, why do you think they are using phrases like "civic duty" and relying on the puppet media who live in big houses n luxury flats and have been on full paychecks throughout n don't live in the real world,to guilt folks into self isolating for another 14 days. " So you can't count on people's "common sense" to do it themselves? They cannot be trusted, they have to be policed? | |||
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"Why do people say ? this? Everybody is touched by death at some point in their lives by various means & times. Everybody will at some point die. That's a fact even if "you" don't like it & as unfortunate as it may seem. Given the opportunity most people make strenuous efforts to avoid it don't they? Are you suggesting that they shouldn't? There's omitting risk & then there's saying people shouldn't die at all. Death can't be avoided, it's a certainty for us all. Who's suggested that? There is a way to minimise the risk of death or serious illness from this particular virus. Having failed the initial containment using test, track and trace we go to plan B. Isolation until infection rates have fallen with social distancing. Test, track and trace then slow return with social distancing maintained until the monitoring system is functioning efficiently. Any objection to that? Death is death & happens through various forms, this virus is just one of them out of thousands of potential causes. The root problem of how this virus spread so fast round the world means our activities are at fault entirely. The problems are bigger than 1 virus & many more will come unless we change or methods of living. Flying = travels viruses, bacteria's over far distances in short period of time + pollution issues Industrial farming = deforestation & coming in closer contact to wild animals by destroying their homes. Global trade readily available = air pollution, water pollution, land degrading, mining, child labour, raw materials exposure such as sulfur & cobalt etc All these things kill millions every day & not just humans. This virus is just another means to the inexhaustible list of ways to die. Yet a permanent lockdown is not feasible, history itself should mass amounts of people will only obey as long as they fear repercussions, one there is no fear they will revolt against restrictions, such as many in my areas are no longer giving a monkeys with social distancing & are now visiting despite the rule changes don't come in until Friday. There is many a way to buy local, grow some of your own & travel less that are more beneficial in the long term than a sudden revert back to the "normal", we already knew that lifestyle was gonna go bust, just won't listen. Your points are certainly valid. Have I said anything to contradict them? So, once again, who is saying anything about a permanent lockdown? Do you actually disagree with any of the points made about test, track and trace and maintaining physical distancing until these processes are working? Your proposal requires a complete change of life. Not a return to normal as the OP seems to be suggesting." I never said you did disagree, I answered your question with answers I thought relevant to it & my explanation of such. There are a few who have suggested we shouldn't be leaving lock down for a long time, we should know by history that once you've lived a certain way for a prolonged period it tends to stick or is imposed with backhanded moves of a powerful. I do have privacy issues with test, tract & trace. I do see the sentiment and the reasoning as valid behind it, however I also know data is one of the biggest commodities at the moment and people already give away so much. Modern Phones are essentially a modern personal tracker, mine is older & all permissions denied, I like to disappear where no-one knows where I am too, so there is selfishness in there, obviously. On a grander scale it's leading in the direction of an ultimate big brother state with cars, bikes, homes (Alexa/ring..both Amazon, private companies), Bluetooth, phone GPS all given freely without thought and to private companies mainly for use of a stupid app that you literally waste your time on. Easy jet just leaked personal details including name, address & dob, all details *required* and now they are on the black market for anyone to now make fake government documents with your details. Maybe it's cos I'm old school or maybe it's because I know that hacking & stalking is a nasty prolonged experience that is had to get away from. Physical distancing I do all the time, it's rare for me to be around big crowds & don't travel much either. Yes, a complete lifestyle change is needed or this is going to repeat over & over and combine that with earth degradation rates as they currently are & add in all those billions of new folk every year increasing demand, there is only so much the earth can sustain before it tips, we are very close so we all need to help. we've seen with lockdown lower pollution rates around the world clearly showing it's personal cars, planes, industry, human activity in a capitalist world that is the issue. For instance, the people living in Ireland/northern Ireland where flying is their daily commute to London or those around the world who thing long distance travel to work daily is acceptable! No, sorry you can't have your cake & eat it...we live in an atmospheric bubble, stuff we emitted & waste doesn't leave and even space is cluttered with our rubbish! You can't buy soil without taking it from somewhere....you can create it from food & garden waste though...helps trap carbon too. Water...well your stuffed if that drys up & heat does that...I'm a sun worshipers but there's limits to what is habitable for the body....animals, birds & insects are already changing migrations to more northern points due to the increasing heat. | |||
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"Totally agree, well balanced post. It’s not palatable, but it’s totally true. We are living now in a country largely gripped by fear, and fear is our enemy now more than the virus. " And the fear has been stoked up by this government. | |||
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"Totally agree, well balanced post. It’s not palatable, but it’s totally true. We are living now in a country largely gripped by fear, and fear is our enemy now more than the virus. And the fear has been stoked up by this government." But mainly the media. | |||
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"Totally agree, well balanced post. It’s not palatable, but it’s totally true. We are living now in a country largely gripped by fear, and fear is our enemy now more than the virus. And the fear has been stoked up by this government." Do are you saying that there's nothing to worry about? | |||
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"Totally agree, well balanced post. It’s not palatable, but it’s totally true. We are living now in a country largely gripped by fear, and fear is our enemy now more than the virus. And the fear has been stoked up by this government. But mainly the media." Agree with all 3 comments | |||
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"Saw this on the Internet. Quarantine is the restriction of movement of sick people. Tyranny is the restriction of movement of healthy people." we learn so much from the Internet don't we | |||
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