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That really sucks. | |||
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"Are you aware of a global pandemic killing people? This isn’t being done to spite anyone. No one really knows what’s best and the entire world is struggling through it. I know what you mean though. I’ve had five tenants not pay me any rent and I live off that money. " Are you aware that Rishi swore to stand behind each and every one of us. If he does not honour that promise, which he hasn't, he forces people to work, spread the virus, and kill more people. | |||
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"This is what happens if you use the system to pay less tax and national insurance. In a pandemic you will only get help with what you say you have been paid" If you have a LTD company you still pay corporation tax, still pay tax and national insurance on your income (salary and dividends). Lots of people use the dividend method as they don’t have a constant stream of turn over. It’s very cynical and narrow minded do think if you pay yourself by dividends you are trying to fiddle tax. I take it you are against large business in the Uk who pay less than 1% corporation tax? | |||
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"This is what happens if you use the system to pay less tax and national insurance. In a pandemic you will only get help with what you say you have been paid If you have a LTD company you still pay corporation tax, still pay tax and national insurance on your income (salary and dividends). Lots of people use the dividend method as they don’t have a constant stream of turn over. It’s very cynical and narrow minded do think if you pay yourself by dividends you are trying to fiddle tax. I take it you are against large business in the Uk who pay less than 1% corporation tax?" You are assuming I am against LTD companies, I am not. I am saying to keep your PAYE low is now biting people on the arse, but people have / had a choice to pay their tax that way | |||
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"I don't know the rules of being a small business etc, what the get out of jail free cards are etc for paying less tax, I know my dad got stung hard after following his accountants guidelines, his problem was that the government backdated their ruling by 5 years, so he had to come out of retirement in order to pay his tax bill or face possible jail! Yes, it's a hard life and unfortunately it takes hard times for people to realise this! And Yes he had a substantial HMRC bill to pay, but pay he did, those are the rules my friend, if you break them to benefit yourself as you see fit, then the worst happens, you can't really expect the government to step in to bail you out. I don't think for one minute this situation was ever taken into the equation when people made these decisions, but unfortunately it is hitting home now, so people, maybe it is time to blame yourselves and your accountants for giving bad advise? Just a suggestion as I know my dad had to live under a cloud for years knowing he had done nothing wrong apart from follow his accountants advice, but it was him facing possible jail time, not his accountant! " People like OP don't pay no tax. They don't even pay less tax than employed people. They just pay less tax than they would if they chose a less tax efficient method. How about we tax the same logic and say that no employed people who don't pay more tax than the HMRC requires of them receive furlough? Hands up employed people who pay more tax than they need to... | |||
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"This is what happens if you use the system to pay less tax and national insurance. In a pandemic you will only get help with what you say you have been paid" I agree. I am in this category and have no problem at all with the schemes being provided by the Chancellor. Totally crazy to think that you are being forgotten because you can't have your cake and eat it . | |||
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"I don't know the rules of being a small business etc, what the get out of jail free cards are etc for paying less tax, I know my dad got stung hard after following his accountants guidelines, his problem was that the government backdated their ruling by 5 years, so he had to come out of retirement in order to pay his tax bill or face possible jail! Yes, it's a hard life and unfortunately it takes hard times for people to realise this! And Yes he had a substantial HMRC bill to pay, but pay he did, those are the rules my friend, if you break them to benefit yourself as you see fit, then the worst happens, you can't really expect the government to step in to bail you out. I don't think for one minute this situation was ever taken into the equation when people made these decisions, but unfortunately it is hitting home now, so people, maybe it is time to blame yourselves and your accountants for giving bad advise? Just a suggestion as I know my dad had to live under a cloud for years knowing he had done nothing wrong apart from follow his accountants advice, but it was him facing possible jail time, not his accountant! People like OP don't pay no tax. They don't even pay less tax than employed people. They just pay less tax than they would if they chose a less tax efficient method. How about we tax the same logic and say that no employed people who don't pay more tax than the HMRC requires of them receive furlough? Hands up employed people who pay more tax than they need to..." Like I said, I don't know the rules! My dad had a LTD company, he followed the guidelines to a T until they no longer applied, but not only did they no longer apply, they were backdated! Which yes, I felt was wrong, I agree that the rules should have changed but not the backdated part, but hey, he had to come out of retirement purely to pay his tax bill, and yes it was ££thousands! This might not be the same thing, but surely it is similar and if you reap the benefits, then you can't surely now be crying 'oh woe is me' Me? I've always been employed, I've always paid 'paye' I don't know of any tax dodges, I just know that this thread is not the first to bemoan peoples circumstances, I just know it might make people think more in the future about what they claim to earn and what they do actually take home in their back pocket, that is all I am saying, surely you get that? | |||
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"This is what happens if you use the system to pay less tax and national insurance. In a pandemic you will only get help with what you say you have been paid I agree. I am in this category and have no problem at all with the schemes being provided by the Chancellor. Totally crazy to think that you are being forgotten because you can't have your cake and eat it ." When you get your payslip, do you ever complain to your boss that you'd like to be paying more tax and NI and demand to pay more? These people do not pay no taxes. They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They just don't pay more tax than they have to. Just like everyone else. | |||
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"This is what happens if you use the system to pay less tax and national insurance. In a pandemic you will only get help with what you say you have been paid I agree. I am in this category and have no problem at all with the schemes being provided by the Chancellor. Totally crazy to think that you are being forgotten because you can't have your cake and eat it . When you get your payslip, do you ever complain to your boss that you'd like to be paying more tax and NI and demand to pay more? These people do not pay no taxes. They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They just don't pay more tax than they have to. Just like everyone else." Read my post again | |||
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"I don't know the rules of being a small business etc, what the get out of jail free cards are etc for paying less tax, I know my dad got stung hard after following his accountants guidelines, his problem was that the government backdated their ruling by 5 years, so he had to come out of retirement in order to pay his tax bill or face possible jail! Yes, it's a hard life and unfortunately it takes hard times for people to realise this! And Yes he had a substantial HMRC bill to pay, but pay he did, those are the rules my friend, if you break them to benefit yourself as you see fit, then the worst happens, you can't really expect the government to step in to bail you out. I don't think for one minute this situation was ever taken into the equation when people made these decisions, but unfortunately it is hitting home now, so people, maybe it is time to blame yourselves and your accountants for giving bad advise? Just a suggestion as I know my dad had to live under a cloud for years knowing he had done nothing wrong apart from follow his accountants advice, but it was him facing possible jail time, not his accountant! People like OP don't pay no tax. They don't even pay less tax than employed people. They just pay less tax than they would if they chose a less tax efficient method. How about we tax the same logic and say that no employed people who don't pay more tax than the HMRC requires of them receive furlough? Hands up employed people who pay more tax than they need to... Like I said, I don't know the rules! My dad had a LTD company, he followed the guidelines to a T until they no longer applied, but not only did they no longer apply, they were backdated! Which yes, I felt was wrong, I agree that the rules should have changed but not the backdated part, but hey, he had to come out of retirement purely to pay his tax bill, and yes it was ££thousands! This might not be the same thing, but surely it is similar and if you reap the benefits, then you can't surely now be crying 'oh woe is me' Me? I've always been employed, I've always paid 'paye' I don't know of any tax dodges, I just know that this thread is not the first to bemoan peoples circumstances, I just know it might make people think more in the future about what they claim to earn and what they do actually take home in their back pocket, that is all I am saying, surely you get that? " Here's two people. Person A earns his living as an employee and pays £5000 a year in tax. Person B does the same work but gets paid more and pays £40 000 per year in tax. Under Rishi person A gets support, person B doesn't. (Based on the logic that he "pays less tax" when in fact he pays 8 times more.) | |||
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"This is what happens if you use the system to pay less tax and national insurance. In a pandemic you will only get help with what you say you have been paid I agree. I am in this category and have no problem at all with the schemes being provided by the Chancellor. Totally crazy to think that you are being forgotten because you can't have your cake and eat it . When you get your payslip, do you ever complain to your boss that you'd like to be paying more tax and NI and demand to pay more? These people do not pay no taxes. They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They just don't pay more tax than they have to. Just like everyone else. Read my post again " Explain what you mean by having your cake and eating it. | |||
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"This is what happens if you use the system to pay less tax and national insurance. In a pandemic you will only get help with what you say you have been paid I agree. I am in this category and have no problem at all with the schemes being provided by the Chancellor. Totally crazy to think that you are being forgotten because you can't have your cake and eat it ." I don’t get the have your cake and eat it comment. Self employed people with limited companies pay Corporation tax, income tax and national insurance. They get no holiday pay, no sick pay (unless you have an insurance policy) and no maternity. I would say over the course of a working life a self employed LTD company director would pay in as much as if not more that a normal employee for any other company and that to the fact they as I said don’t take another from the state then there is complete disparity with the governments furlough scheme. | |||
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"I don't know the rules of being a small business etc, what the get out of jail free cards are etc for paying less tax, I know my dad got stung hard after following his accountants guidelines, his problem was that the government backdated their ruling by 5 years, so he had to come out of retirement in order to pay his tax bill or face possible jail! Yes, it's a hard life and unfortunately it takes hard times for people to realise this! And Yes he had a substantial HMRC bill to pay, but pay he did, those are the rules my friend, if you break them to benefit yourself as you see fit, then the worst happens, you can't really expect the government to step in to bail you out. I don't think for one minute this situation was ever taken into the equation when people made these decisions, but unfortunately it is hitting home now, so people, maybe it is time to blame yourselves and your accountants for giving bad advise? Just a suggestion as I know my dad had to live under a cloud for years knowing he had done nothing wrong apart from follow his accountants advice, but it was him facing possible jail time, not his accountant! People like OP don't pay no tax. They don't even pay less tax than employed people. They just pay less tax than they would if they chose a less tax efficient method. How about we tax the same logic and say that no employed people who don't pay more tax than the HMRC requires of them receive furlough? Hands up employed people who pay more tax than they need to... Like I said, I don't know the rules! My dad had a LTD company, he followed the guidelines to a T until they no longer applied, but not only did they no longer apply, they were backdated! Which yes, I felt was wrong, I agree that the rules should have changed but not the backdated part, but hey, he had to come out of retirement purely to pay his tax bill, and yes it was ££thousands! This might not be the same thing, but surely it is similar and if you reap the benefits, then you can't surely now be crying 'oh woe is me' Me? I've always been employed, I've always paid 'paye' I don't know of any tax dodges, I just know that this thread is not the first to bemoan peoples circumstances, I just know it might make people think more in the future about what they claim to earn and what they do actually take home in their back pocket, that is all I am saying, surely you get that? Here's two people. Person A earns his living as an employee and pays £5000 a year in tax. Person B does the same work but gets paid more and pays £40 000 per year in tax. Under Rishi person A gets support, person B doesn't. (Based on the logic that he "pays less tax" when in fact he pays 8 times more.)" I'm not looking for a fecking maths lesson, I'm just stating that if you fly loose with the rules and it comes back and bites you on the arse, then don't fucking complain about it! It's not rocket science is it? It's funny how you have chosen to ignore 'Birminghams Weekends' post as he gets it! As he is self employed also!  | |||
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"This is what happens if you use the system to pay less tax and national insurance. In a pandemic you will only get help with what you say you have been paid I agree. I am in this category and have no problem at all with the schemes being provided by the Chancellor. Totally crazy to think that you are being forgotten because you can't have your cake and eat it . When you get your payslip, do you ever complain to your boss that you'd like to be paying more tax and NI and demand to pay more? These people do not pay no taxes. They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They just don't pay more tax than they have to. Just like everyone else." Despite disagreeing with your logic that tax avoidance is morally less worse than tax evasion. Let's run with your idea... Why didn't all the directors complaining now, use some of those tax reductions to save an emergency fund pot to survive for 3-6 months. I was lucky enough to see the financial implications of this in February my outgoing were massively reduced I even sold my car becuase I expect limited use form it. These forum posts are more about people not economising to the current reality. | |||
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"This is what happens if you use the system to pay less tax and national insurance. In a pandemic you will only get help with what you say you have been paid I agree. I am in this category and have no problem at all with the schemes being provided by the Chancellor. Totally crazy to think that you are being forgotten because you can't have your cake and eat it . I don’t get the have your cake and eat it comment. Self employed people with limited companies pay Corporation tax, income tax and national insurance. They get no holiday pay, no sick pay (unless you have an insurance policy) and no maternity. I would say over the course of a working life a self employed LTD company director would pay in as much as if not more that a normal employee for any other company and that to the fact they as I said don’t take another from the state then there is complete disparity with the governments furlough scheme." You also don't get paid in between jobs. For this reason ltd businesspeople are paid more. Because they are paid more they are taxed more. If that compensation were eaten away by taxes then the flexible workforce would disappear and the economy would suffer. As it most certainly shall after IR35. Get ready for the tripple whammy of COVID-19, a hard Brexit and IR35 next year. | |||
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"This is what happens if you use the system to pay less tax and national insurance. In a pandemic you will only get help with what you say you have been paid I agree. I am in this category and have no problem at all with the schemes being provided by the Chancellor. Totally crazy to think that you are being forgotten because you can't have your cake and eat it . When you get your payslip, do you ever complain to your boss that you'd like to be paying more tax and NI and demand to pay more? These people do not pay no taxes. They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They just don't pay more tax than they have to. Just like everyone else. Read my post again Explain what you mean by having your cake and eating it." I know exactly how it works as I am in the category of Ltd company director. Doesn't matter how many figures and explanations you provide - I know exactly what the difference is and exactly why we pay ourselves the way we do . Stop trying to kid people that we have somehow been hard done by - we haven't been . | |||
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"This is what happens if you use the system to pay less tax and national insurance. In a pandemic you will only get help with what you say you have been paid I agree. I am in this category and have no problem at all with the schemes being provided by the Chancellor. Totally crazy to think that you are being forgotten because you can't have your cake and eat it . When you get your payslip, do you ever complain to your boss that you'd like to be paying more tax and NI and demand to pay more? These people do not pay no taxes. They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They just don't pay more tax than they have to. Just like everyone else. Despite disagreeing with your logic that tax avoidance is morally less worse than tax evasion. Let's run with your idea... Why didn't all the directors complaining now, use some of those tax reductions to save an emergency fund pot to survive for 3-6 months. I was lucky enough to see the financial implications of this in February my outgoing were massively reduced I even sold my car becuase I expect limited use form it. These forum posts are more about people not economising to the current reality. " Perhaps if the government had given us fair notice that the virus was coming, made an attempt to prevent it being the worst outbreak in Europe, and let us know that we'd be left out in the cold when the crunch came, we might have put more money in savings and invested less in our businesses. | |||
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"This is what happens if you use the system to pay less tax and national insurance. In a pandemic you will only get help with what you say you have been paid I agree. I am in this category and have no problem at all with the schemes being provided by the Chancellor. Totally crazy to think that you are being forgotten because you can't have your cake and eat it ." Me too but luckily I’m still working. It’s made me think about maybe doing things differently in the future though. | |||
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" They actually pay more taxes than employed people. " They don't. That is the whole point of doing it. | |||
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"This is what happens if you use the system to pay less tax and national insurance. In a pandemic you will only get help with what you say you have been paid I agree. I am in this category and have no problem at all with the schemes being provided by the Chancellor. Totally crazy to think that you are being forgotten because you can't have your cake and eat it . I don’t get the have your cake and eat it comment. Self employed people with limited companies pay Corporation tax, income tax and national insurance. ." But not full national insurance | |||
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"This is what happens if you use the system to pay less tax and national insurance. In a pandemic you will only get help with what you say you have been paid I agree. I am in this category and have no problem at all with the schemes being provided by the Chancellor. Totally crazy to think that you are being forgotten because you can't have your cake and eat it . When you get your payslip, do you ever complain to your boss that you'd like to be paying more tax and NI and demand to pay more? These people do not pay no taxes. They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They just don't pay more tax than they have to. Just like everyone else. Read my post again Explain what you mean by having your cake and eating it. I know exactly how it works as I am in the category of Ltd company director. Doesn't matter how many figures and explanations you provide - I know exactly what the difference is and exactly why we pay ourselves the way we do . Stop trying to kid people that we have somehow been hard done by - we haven't been ." Thank god you have been open and honest about how it works, to those who are trying to pretend we are all thick   | |||
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"This is what happens if you use the system to pay less tax and national insurance. In a pandemic you will only get help with what you say you have been paid I agree. I am in this category and have no problem at all with the schemes being provided by the Chancellor. Totally crazy to think that you are being forgotten because you can't have your cake and eat it . When you get your payslip, do you ever complain to your boss that you'd like to be paying more tax and NI and demand to pay more? These people do not pay no taxes. They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They just don't pay more tax than they have to. Just like everyone else. Read my post again Explain what you mean by having your cake and eating it. I know exactly how it works as I am in the category of Ltd company director. Doesn't matter how many figures and explanations you provide - I know exactly what the difference is and exactly why we pay ourselves the way we do . Stop trying to kid people that we have somehow been hard done by - we haven't been ." | |||
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"This is what happens if you use the system to pay less tax and national insurance. In a pandemic you will only get help with what you say you have been paid I agree. I am in this category and have no problem at all with the schemes being provided by the Chancellor. Totally crazy to think that you are being forgotten because you can't have your cake and eat it . When you get your payslip, do you ever complain to your boss that you'd like to be paying more tax and NI and demand to pay more? These people do not pay no taxes. They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They just don't pay more tax than they have to. Just like everyone else. Despite disagreeing with your logic that tax avoidance is morally less worse than tax evasion. Let's run with your idea... Why didn't all the directors complaining now, use some of those tax reductions to save an emergency fund pot to survive for 3-6 months. I was lucky enough to see the financial implications of this in February my outgoing were massively reduced I even sold my car becuase I expect limited use form it. These forum posts are more about people not economising to the current reality. Perhaps if the government had given us fair notice that the virus was coming, made an attempt to prevent it being the worst outbreak in Europe, and let us know that we'd be left out in the cold when the crunch came, we might have put more money in savings and invested less in our businesses. " Ffs... the government fucked everyone over. They were to busy arsing up brexit at the start of the year As for warnings I was advising not only my clients, colleagues but family too. If you told anyone the virus was more than the flu in the Western world you were given a tinfoil hat then. You only needed to log on to a few Chinese sites to see how bad it was. A half decent accountant an ifa would have told you to spread your risk. And anyone who hasn't got more than 3 months saving set a side has financial problems. I say that with sympathy not malice. But also don't think someone like that should be making financial decisions for a company especially if they have employees. | |||
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"This is what happens if you use the system to pay less tax and national insurance. In a pandemic you will only get help with what you say you have been paid I agree. I am in this category and have no problem at all with the schemes being provided by the Chancellor. Totally crazy to think that you are being forgotten because you can't have your cake and eat it . When you get your payslip, do you ever complain to your boss that you'd like to be paying more tax and NI and demand to pay more? These people do not pay no taxes. They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They just don't pay more tax than they have to. Just like everyone else. Despite disagreeing with your logic that tax avoidance is morally less worse than tax evasion. Let's run with your idea... Why didn't all the directors complaining now, use some of those tax reductions to save an emergency fund pot to survive for 3-6 months. I was lucky enough to see the financial implications of this in February my outgoing were massively reduced I even sold my car becuase I expect limited use form it. These forum posts are more about people not economising to the current reality. Perhaps if the government had given us fair notice that the virus was coming, made an attempt to prevent it being the worst outbreak in Europe, and let us know that we'd be left out in the cold when the crunch came, we might have put more money in savings and invested less in our businesses. " Why? So you could 'cook your books' | |||
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" They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They don't. That is the whole point of doing it." Are you sure? If a company pay 19% CT on profit and then 32.5% on that same momey again that's 51.5%. How much is PAYE? | |||
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" They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They don't. That is the whole point of doing it. Are you sure? If a company pay 19% CT on profit and then 32.5% on that same momey again that's 51.5%. How much is PAYE?" Is it not 9 percent up to a particular threshold And no ni employees or employers Thus paye at the 40 percent band would also have ni taking it closer to 60 | |||
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"This is what happens if you use the system to pay less tax and national insurance. In a pandemic you will only get help with what you say you have been paid I agree. I am in this category and have no problem at all with the schemes being provided by the Chancellor. Totally crazy to think that you are being forgotten because you can't have your cake and eat it . When you get your payslip, do you ever complain to your boss that you'd like to be paying more tax and NI and demand to pay more? These people do not pay no taxes. They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They just don't pay more tax than they have to. Just like everyone else. Despite disagreeing with your logic that tax avoidance is morally less worse than tax evasion. Let's run with your idea... Why didn't all the directors complaining now, use some of those tax reductions to save an emergency fund pot to survive for 3-6 months. I was lucky enough to see the financial implications of this in February my outgoing were massively reduced I even sold my car becuase I expect limited use form it. These forum posts are more about people not economising to the current reality. Perhaps if the government had given us fair notice that the virus was coming, made an attempt to prevent it being the worst outbreak in Europe, and let us know that we'd be left out in the cold when the crunch came, we might have put more money in savings and invested less in our businesses. Why? So you could 'cook your books' " Actually all my money earned is declared and prepared by accountants. But thanks for calling me a crook even though you have no idea as to how honest I am. Actually businesses invest in themselves. This is how they grow. It's not an act of dishonesty, it's actually just good business to have your capital working rather than sitting as a rainy day fund. One might say to the the airtravel industry that they shouldn't have bought new planes 'to cook the books', and put that money in a pandemic emergency fund. | |||
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" They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They don't. That is the whole point of doing it. Are you sure? If a company pay 19% CT on profit and then 32.5% on that same momey again that's 51.5%. How much is PAYE? Is it not 9 percent up to a particular threshold And no ni employees or employers Thus paye at the 40 percent band would also have ni taking it closer to 60 " It depends what you pay in dividends. The top threshold is 38.1% not far shy of 40. If dividends are considered income when they are taxed then they should be considered as income now too. Actually the lower band is 7.5% but is a tax on money that has already been taxed. | |||
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"This is what happens if you use the system to pay less tax and national insurance. In a pandemic you will only get help with what you say you have been paid I agree. I am in this category and have no problem at all with the schemes being provided by the Chancellor. Totally crazy to think that you are being forgotten because you can't have your cake and eat it . When you get your payslip, do you ever complain to your boss that you'd like to be paying more tax and NI and demand to pay more? These people do not pay no taxes. They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They just don't pay more tax than they have to. Just like everyone else. Despite disagreeing with your logic that tax avoidance is morally less worse than tax evasion. Let's run with your idea... Why didn't all the directors complaining now, use some of those tax reductions to save an emergency fund pot to survive for 3-6 months. I was lucky enough to see the financial implications of this in February my outgoing were massively reduced I even sold my car becuase I expect limited use form it. These forum posts are more about people not economising to the current reality. Perhaps if the government had given us fair notice that the virus was coming, made an attempt to prevent it being the worst outbreak in Europe, and let us know that we'd be left out in the cold when the crunch came, we might have put more money in savings and invested less in our businesses. Why? So you could 'cook your books' Actually all my money earned is declared and prepared by accountants. But thanks for calling me a crook even though you have no idea as to how honest I am. Actually businesses invest in themselves. This is how they grow. It's not an act of dishonesty, it's actually just good business to have your capital working rather than sitting as a rainy day fund. One might say to the the airtravel industry that they shouldn't have bought new planes 'to cook the books', and put that money in a pandemic emergency fund." I only said that, because you made out that you wanted prior notice, to put whatever in the works! I'm not saying your a crook by any means, I know my dad got in a mess by following his accountants advise and the then current government guidelines, I'm just saying that sometimes, just sometimes, situations arise that come back and bite you in the arse! Pure and simple, no malice intended at all! | |||
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" They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They don't. That is the whole point of doing it. Are you sure? ." I am positive. The OP has a limited company. He is like a lot of people who use it legally to get dividends and less PAYE | |||
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" They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They don't. That is the whole point of doing it. Are you sure? If a company pay 19% CT on profit and then 32.5% on that same momey again that's 51.5%. How much is PAYE? Is it not 9 percent up to a particular threshold And no ni employees or employers Thus paye at the 40 percent band would also have ni taking it closer to 60 It depends what you pay in dividends. The top threshold is 38.1% not far shy of 40. If dividends are considered income when they are taxed then they should be considered as income now too. Actually the lower band is 7.5% but is a tax on money that has already been taxed." Not really Bt cut my dividend Should the gvmt pay that And as you note they are not taxed as earnings And again they are always more tax efficient than PAYE Maybe not as much as touted but 7.5 +19 is less than 20 +10+10 | |||
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" They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They don't. That is the whole point of doing it. Are you sure? If a company pay 19% CT on profit and then 32.5% on that same momey again that's 51.5%. How much is PAYE? Is it not 9 percent up to a particular threshold And no ni employees or employers Thus paye at the 40 percent band would also have ni taking it closer to 60 It depends what you pay in dividends. The top threshold is 38.1% not far shy of 40. If dividends are considered income when they are taxed then they should be considered as income now too. Actually the lower band is 7.5% but is a tax on money that has already been taxed. Not really Bt cut my dividend Should the gvmt pay that And as you note they are not taxed as earnings And again they are always more tax efficient than PAYE Maybe not as much as touted but 7.5 +19 is less than 20 +10+10" Ok let's use 26.5%. So someone who pays 26.5% of the money they make to government coffers pays no tax a deserves no support? | |||
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" They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They don't. That is the whole point of doing it. Are you sure? If a company pay 19% CT on profit and then 32.5% on that same momey again that's 51.5%. How much is PAYE? Is it not 9 percent up to a particular threshold And no ni employees or employers Thus paye at the 40 percent band would also have ni taking it closer to 60 It depends what you pay in dividends. The top threshold is 38.1% not far shy of 40. If dividends are considered income when they are taxed then they should be considered as income now too. Actually the lower band is 7.5% but is a tax on money that has already been taxed. Not really Bt cut my dividend Should the gvmt pay that And as you note they are not taxed as earnings And again they are always more tax efficient than PAYE Maybe not as much as touted but 7.5 +19 is less than 20 +10+10 Ok let's use 26.5%. So someone who pays 26.5% of the money they make to government coffers pays no tax a deserves no support?" Yes I think I do up to the threshold others have been given Obviously some of us are vat registered which I pay tens of thousands a year even if we make a loss | |||
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" They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They don't. That is the whole point of doing it. Are you sure? . I am positive. The OP has a limited company. He is like a lot of people who use it legally to get dividends and less PAYE" That's true. He gets paid paid far more than an employee because he gets no sick pay, no holiday pay and no pay between jobs. Even though he pays a lower percentage of his income, that income is much greater so the actual tax paid for the same work done is more. Consider an employed IT programmer who earns £20 per hour and pays 40% PAYE pays £8 in PAYE. An IT contractor earning £60 per hour but getting taxed at 26.5% pays £15.90 for the same work. Less tax as a percentage but more tax as a £ amount. | |||
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" They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They don't. That is the whole point of doing it. Are you sure? If a company pay 19% CT on profit and then 32.5% on that same momey again that's 51.5%. How much is PAYE? Is it not 9 percent up to a particular threshold And no ni employees or employers Thus paye at the 40 percent band would also have ni taking it closer to 60 It depends what you pay in dividends. The top threshold is 38.1% not far shy of 40. If dividends are considered income when they are taxed then they should be considered as income now too. Actually the lower band is 7.5% but is a tax on money that has already been taxed. Not really Bt cut my dividend Should the gvmt pay that And as you note they are not taxed as earnings And again they are always more tax efficient than PAYE Maybe not as much as touted but 7.5 +19 is less than 20 +10+10 Ok let's use 26.5%. So someone who pays 26.5% of the money they make to government coffers pays no tax a deserves no support? Yes I think I do up to the threshold others have been given Obviously some of us are vat registered which I pay tens of thousands a year even if we make a loss " But people who are paying 38.1% of their dividends in tax don't get penny in support.... is that right? | |||
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" They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They don't. That is the whole point of doing it. Are you sure? If a company pay 19% CT on profit and then 32.5% on that same momey again that's 51.5%. How much is PAYE? Is it not 9 percent up to a particular threshold And no ni employees or employers Thus paye at the 40 percent band would also have ni taking it closer to 60 It depends what you pay in dividends. The top threshold is 38.1% not far shy of 40. If dividends are considered income when they are taxed then they should be considered as income now too. Actually the lower band is 7.5% but is a tax on money that has already been taxed. Not really Bt cut my dividend Should the gvmt pay that And as you note they are not taxed as earnings And again they are always more tax efficient than PAYE Maybe not as much as touted but 7.5 +19 is less than 20 +10+10 Ok let's use 26.5%. So someone who pays 26.5% of the money they make to government coffers pays no tax a deserves no support? Yes I think I do up to the threshold others have been given Obviously some of us are vat registered which I pay tens of thousands a year even if we make a loss But people who are paying 38.1% of their dividends in tax don't get penny in support.... is that right?" Think you mis understood my reply I said yes I should receive the support Illustrating we also contribute tax via vat | |||
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" They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They don't. That is the whole point of doing it. Are you sure? If a company pay 19% CT on profit and then 32.5% on that same momey again that's 51.5%. How much is PAYE? Is it not 9 percent up to a particular threshold And no ni employees or employers Thus paye at the 40 percent band would also have ni taking it closer to 60 It depends what you pay in dividends. The top threshold is 38.1% not far shy of 40. If dividends are considered income when they are taxed then they should be considered as income now too. Actually the lower band is 7.5% but is a tax on money that has already been taxed. Not really Bt cut my dividend Should the gvmt pay that And as you note they are not taxed as earnings And again they are always more tax efficient than PAYE Maybe not as much as touted but 7.5 +19 is less than 20 +10+10 Ok let's use 26.5%. So someone who pays 26.5% of the money they make to government coffers pays no tax a deserves no support? Yes I think I do up to the threshold others have been given Obviously some of us are vat registered which I pay tens of thousands a year even if we make a loss But people who are paying 38.1% of their dividends in tax don't get penny in support.... is that right? Think you mis understood my reply I said yes I should receive the support Illustrating we also contribute tax via vat " Sorry yes I did misunderstand. My apologies. | |||
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" They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They don't. That is the whole point of doing it. Are you sure? . I am positive. The OP has a limited company. He is like a lot of people who use it legally to get dividends and less PAYE That's true. He gets paid paid far more than an employee because he gets no sick pay, no holiday pay and no pay between jobs. Even though he pays a lower percentage of his income, that income is much greater so the actual tax paid for the same work done is more. Consider an employed IT programmer who earns £20 per hour and pays 40% PAYE pays £8 in PAYE. An IT contractor earning £60 per hour but getting taxed at 26.5% pays £15.90 for the same work. Less tax as a percentage but more tax as a £ amount." We don't know your circumstances but you seem to have some kind of bias towards IR35 IR35 rose in popularity under the conservative coalition after the last financial collapse in 08. Banks used them to underpay contractors with all the ppi work, that they didn't want employe permanent staff for Since then, they have gone on to grow and the biggest sector form them is now civil service departments. Espically IT I dont blame the government for cracking down on them. At one point civil service staff were leaving only to rejoin differnt departments months later on inflated salaries paying less tax. Thats not tax avoidance its corruption. Despite that the government was using a softly softly approach to new rules coming in this year. Even putting hrmc staff in business to limit the impact of the changes. To many contractors have gotten used to inflated salaries. IR35 should have been changed YEARS ago. The tax laws should be simplified business should have paid more and taken staff on permanently reducing those costs by paying through benefits that had tax relief On the flipside contractors should have accepted less flexibility They wouldn't have been moaning about it their tax status now. Liek everything, there is more than one side to all this | |||
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"This is what happens if you use the system to pay less tax and national insurance. In a pandemic you will only get help with what you say you have been paid I agree. I am in this category and have no problem at all with the schemes being provided by the Chancellor. Totally crazy to think that you are being forgotten because you can't have your cake and eat it . When you get your payslip, do you ever complain to your boss that you'd like to be paying more tax and NI and demand to pay more? These people do not pay no taxes. They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They just don't pay more tax than they have to. Just like everyone else. Despite disagreeing with your logic that tax avoidance is morally less worse than tax evasion. Let's run with your idea... Why didn't all the directors complaining now, use some of those tax reductions to save an emergency fund pot to survive for 3-6 months. I was lucky enough to see the financial implications of this in February my outgoing were massively reduced I even sold my car becuase I expect limited use form it. These forum posts are more about people not economising to the current reality. Perhaps if the government had given us fair notice that the virus was coming, made an attempt to prevent it being the worst outbreak in Europe, and let us know that we'd be left out in the cold when the crunch came, we might have put more money in savings and invested less in our businesses. Why? So you could 'cook your books' Actually all my money earned is declared and prepared by accountants. But thanks for calling me a crook even though you have no idea as to how honest I am. Actually businesses invest in themselves. This is how they grow. It's not an act of dishonesty, it's actually just good business to have your capital working rather than sitting as a rainy day fund. One might say to the the airtravel industry that they shouldn't have bought new planes 'to cook the books', and put that money in a pandemic emergency fund. I only said that, because you made out that you wanted prior notice, to put whatever in the works! I'm not saying your a crook by any means, I know my dad got in a mess by following his accountants advise and the then current government guidelines, I'm just saying that sometimes, just sometimes, situations arise that come back and bite you in the arse! Pure and simple, no malice intended at all! " I am assuming you are talking about the loan scheme. HMRC changed the tax laws and applied them retrospectively. Doing this is nothing short of criminal. Many people have taken their own lives because of this. Imagine if the government raised the age of consent to 21 and applied it retrospectively to 1900. Half the country would be in prison. | |||
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"This is what happens if you use the system to pay less tax and national insurance. In a pandemic you will only get help with what you say you have been paid I agree. I am in this category and have no problem at all with the schemes being provided by the Chancellor. Totally crazy to think that you are being forgotten because you can't have your cake and eat it . When you get your payslip, do you ever complain to your boss that you'd like to be paying more tax and NI and demand to pay more? These people do not pay no taxes. They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They just don't pay more tax than they have to. Just like everyone else. Read my post again Explain what you mean by having your cake and eating it. I know exactly how it works as I am in the category of Ltd company director. Doesn't matter how many figures and explanations you provide - I know exactly what the difference is and exactly why we pay ourselves the way we do . Stop trying to kid people that we have somehow been hard done by - we haven't been . "Actually you are the only person in business I know with that opinion. ContractorUK and even the House of Lords think otherwise. | |||
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"This is what happens if you use the system to pay less tax and national insurance. In a pandemic you will only get help with what you say you have been paid I agree. I am in this category and have no problem at all with the schemes being provided by the Chancellor. Totally crazy to think that you are being forgotten because you can't have your cake and eat it . When you get your payslip, do you ever complain to your boss that you'd like to be paying more tax and NI and demand to pay more? These people do not pay no taxes. They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They just don't pay more tax than they have to. Just like everyone else. Despite disagreeing with your logic that tax avoidance is morally less worse than tax evasion. Let's run with your idea... Why didn't all the directors complaining now, use some of those tax reductions to save an emergency fund pot to survive for 3-6 months. I was lucky enough to see the financial implications of this in February my outgoing were massively reduced I even sold my car becuase I expect limited use form it. These forum posts are more about people not economising to the current reality. Perhaps if the government had given us fair notice that the virus was coming, made an attempt to prevent it being the worst outbreak in Europe, and let us know that we'd be left out in the cold when the crunch came, we might have put more money in savings and invested less in our businesses. Why? So you could 'cook your books' Actually all my money earned is declared and prepared by accountants. But thanks for calling me a crook even though you have no idea as to how honest I am. Actually businesses invest in themselves. This is how they grow. It's not an act of dishonesty, it's actually just good business to have your capital working rather than sitting as a rainy day fund. One might say to the the airtravel industry that they shouldn't have bought new planes 'to cook the books', and put that money in a pandemic emergency fund. I only said that, because you made out that you wanted prior notice, to put whatever in the works! I'm not saying your a crook by any means, I know my dad got in a mess by following his accountants advise and the then current government guidelines, I'm just saying that sometimes, just sometimes, situations arise that come back and bite you in the arse! Pure and simple, no malice intended at all! I am assuming you are talking about the loan scheme. HMRC changed the tax laws and applied them retrospectively. Doing this is nothing short of criminal. Many people have taken their own lives because of this. Imagine if the government raised the age of consent to 21 and applied it retrospectively to 1900. Half the country would be in prison. " I personally don't know about the loan schemes, but yes you are right, the HMRC changed their guidelines and yes many people have taken their own lives because they could not see a way forward out of what they were advised was legal at the time! And yes, I agree it was criminal for them to do so! I agree with changing the laws but not back dating them, that has caused a lot of pain for a lot of families, thank god my dad managed to pay what they deemed was due. | |||
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"Dear oh dear, the same old objections posted by people who aren't directors and just assume it's all about fiddling tax because they have no clue what running a limited company involves. Most small business directors aren't earning 6 figure salaries, many earn less than you! They take advice from accountants who are directed by HMRC. They pay less on their PAYE earnings but they still pay taxes and plenty of them, not forgetting the fees they pay to accountants to deal with their corporate and personal tax affairs. Running a limited company gets complicated, they have to play within very specific and sometimes complicated rules and the price for falling foul of the rules is jail! It's not a tax free walk in the park, it's hard work. The idea that a director paying themselves dividends is avoiding tax is plainly stupid. Many use dividends as a method of linking pay to performance. They pay themselves a small monthly PAYE salary and at the end of the year a dividend, based on how good or bad the year has been. Their company has already paid corporation tax on the profit it has made and from what is left they then pay themselves a dividend obviously having to pay tax on that again. As an example, my dividend, taking the last and next few months into account will be nothing. Of course on paper i will pay myself but to ensure the survival of the business i will lend that money back to the company placing it back into a director's loan account. So yes, i'll pay a lower rate of tax on my dividend but i won't see any of it because the company can't afford to pay me because it gets no help from the government to pay wages. This will turn around and maybe before long i can draw my pay out, or maybe not. That is the way being paid like this actually works, most directors DO NOT have it easy! To those who are being "looked after", when you mouth off about directors fiddling the system please keep in mind that many of those directors contribute a shit load to the treasury and yet while they are being told to fuck off, their contribution is being handed out to you! " Well said. Except that those taxes might not be paid by directors because they may soon be on benefits instead of paying tax and earning VAT. | |||
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"Dear oh dear, the same old objections posted by people who aren't directors and just assume it's all about fiddling tax because they have no clue what running a limited company involves. Most small business directors aren't earning 6 figure salaries, many earn less than you! They take advice from accountants who are directed by HMRC. They pay less on their PAYE earnings but they still pay taxes and plenty of them, not forgetting the fees they pay to accountants to deal with their corporate and personal tax affairs. Running a limited company gets complicated, they have to play within very specific and sometimes complicated rules and the price for falling foul of the rules is jail! It's not a tax free walk in the park, it's hard work. The idea that a director paying themselves dividends is avoiding tax is plainly stupid. Many use dividends as a method of linking pay to performance. They pay themselves a small monthly PAYE salary and at the end of the year a dividend, based on how good or bad the year has been. Their company has already paid corporation tax on the profit it has made and from what is left they then pay themselves a dividend obviously having to pay tax on that again. As an example, my dividend, taking the last and next few months into account will be nothing. Of course on paper i will pay myself but to ensure the survival of the business i will lend that money back to the company placing it back into a director's loan account. So yes, i'll pay a lower rate of tax on my dividend but i won't see any of it because the company can't afford to pay me because it gets no help from the government to pay wages. This will turn around and maybe before long i can draw my pay out, or maybe not. That is the way being paid like this actually works, most directors DO NOT have it easy! To those who are being "looked after", when you mouth off about directors fiddling the system please keep in mind that many of those directors contribute a shit load to the treasury and yet while they are being told to fuck off, their contribution is being handed out to you! " nailed it! | |||
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"Dear oh dear, the same old objections posted by people who aren't directors and just assume it's all about fiddling tax because they have no clue what running a limited company involves. Most small business directors aren't earning 6 figure salaries, many earn less than you! They take advice from accountants who are directed by HMRC. They pay less on their PAYE earnings but they still pay taxes and plenty of them, not forgetting the fees they pay to accountants to deal with their corporate and personal tax affairs. Running a limited company gets complicated, they have to play within very specific and sometimes complicated rules and the price for falling foul of the rules is jail! It's not a tax free walk in the park, it's hard work. The idea that a director paying themselves dividends is avoiding tax is plainly stupid. Many use dividends as a method of linking pay to performance. They pay themselves a small monthly PAYE salary and at the end of the year a dividend, based on how good or bad the year has been. Their company has already paid corporation tax on the profit it has made and from what is left they then pay themselves a dividend obviously having to pay tax on that again. As an example, my dividend, taking the last and next few months into account will be nothing. Of course on paper i will pay myself but to ensure the survival of the business i will lend that money back to the company placing it back into a director's loan account. So yes, i'll pay a lower rate of tax on my dividend but i won't see any of it because the company can't afford to pay me because it gets no help from the government to pay wages. This will turn around and maybe before long i can draw my pay out, or maybe not. That is the way being paid like this actually works, most directors DO NOT have it easy! To those who are being "looked after", when you mouth off about directors fiddling the system please keep in mind that many of those directors contribute a shit load to the treasury and yet while they are being told to fuck off, their contribution is being handed out to you! " | |||
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"This is what happens if you use the system to pay less tax and national insurance. In a pandemic you will only get help with what you say you have been paid I agree. I am in this category and have no problem at all with the schemes being provided by the Chancellor. Totally crazy to think that you are being forgotten because you can't have your cake and eat it . When you get your payslip, do you ever complain to your boss that you'd like to be paying more tax and NI and demand to pay more? These people do not pay no taxes. They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They just don't pay more tax than they have to. Just like everyone else. Despite disagreeing with your logic that tax avoidance is morally less worse than tax evasion. Let's run with your idea... Why didn't all the directors complaining now, use some of those tax reductions to save an emergency fund pot to survive for 3-6 months. I was lucky enough to see the financial implications of this in February my outgoing were massively reduced I even sold my car becuase I expect limited use form it. These forum posts are more about people not economising to the current reality. Perhaps if the government had given us fair notice that the virus was coming, made an attempt to prevent it being the worst outbreak in Europe, and let us know that we'd be left out in the cold when the crunch came, we might have put more money in savings and invested less in our businesses. Why? So you could 'cook your books' Actually all my money earned is declared and prepared by accountants. But thanks for calling me a crook even though you have no idea as to how honest I am. Actually businesses invest in themselves. This is how they grow. It's not an act of dishonesty, it's actually just good business to have your capital working rather than sitting as a rainy day fund. One might say to the the airtravel industry that they shouldn't have bought new planes 'to cook the books', and put that money in a pandemic emergency fund." Think you will find most directors of airlines will have a personal pandemic emergency fund but just probably call it something else.  | |||
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"This is what happens if you use the system to pay less tax and national insurance. In a pandemic you will only get help with what you say you have been paid I agree. I am in this category and have no problem at all with the schemes being provided by the Chancellor. Totally crazy to think that you are being forgotten because you can't have your cake and eat it . When you get your payslip, do you ever complain to your boss that you'd like to be paying more tax and NI and demand to pay more? These people do not pay no taxes. They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They just don't pay more tax than they have to. Just like everyone else. Despite disagreeing with your logic that tax avoidance is morally less worse than tax evasion. Let's run with your idea... Why didn't all the directors complaining now, use some of those tax reductions to save an emergency fund pot to survive for 3-6 months. I was lucky enough to see the financial implications of this in February my outgoing were massively reduced I even sold my car becuase I expect limited use form it. These forum posts are more about people not economising to the current reality. Perhaps if the government had given us fair notice that the virus was coming, made an attempt to prevent it being the worst outbreak in Europe, and let us know that we'd be left out in the cold when the crunch came, we might have put more money in savings and invested less in our businesses. Why? So you could 'cook your books' Actually all my money earned is declared and prepared by accountants. But thanks for calling me a crook even though you have no idea as to how honest I am. Actually businesses invest in themselves. This is how they grow. It's not an act of dishonesty, it's actually just good business to have your capital working rather than sitting as a rainy day fund. One might say to the the airtravel industry that they shouldn't have bought new planes 'to cook the books', and put that money in a pandemic emergency fund. Think you will find most directors of airlines will have a personal pandemic emergency fund but just probably call it something else. "I'm sure they have lots of personal funds
But they are laying off staff and calling for bailouts when they have so much collateral to secure low interest loans.
Why to the big boys get grants and the little guy can't even get a penny?
Do you know in the states the average man on the street got $1200 but the wealthy got $1.7 million? | |||
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"Don't forget to have your dividend vouchers in place and correctly issued on company earned profit " Thanks to the likes of people like you and their Opinions, in April banks including Lloyds were pressured not to pay final dividends for 2019. Why? Because they were bailed out and people like you would moan about it. 1) Lloyds took on HBOS (at the request of Gordon Brown) preventing total collapse of the UK banking system wiping out countless millions of savers overnight. 2) Because they acquired HBOS (riddled with toxic debt) they then needed a bailout themselves (the Treasury acquiring shares) 3) The government charged INTEREST on the money, it wasn't free! 4) The Government sold it's shares at a PROFIT. 5) The Government received DIVIDENDS on it's shares in Lloyds! So, Lloyds owes The treasury and people like you NOTHING. BUT...because people like you have opinions they were "threatened" to not pay a final dividend for LAST YEAR 2019, despite having sufficient room to pay it and cope with Covid-19! In short the money that i INVESTED in Lloyds and which earned me a 2019 final dividend payable in May was cancelled in March! In real terms the £10,000 i was "guaranteed" in May simply vanished. SO, i pay my taxes and get nothing, because HMRC can't distinguish between the dividends my own company pays me and those paid by other companies. Those same companies the Government has "ordered" to pay me nothing. Yes, very fair. No doubt you're going to be fine so you probably couldn't give a toss either way. However, my big news for you is that i am arguing the principle here, i'm not on the bread line, far from it. My point is that Directors are getting hammered unfairly. They are the ones that when your boss decides he doesn't want to stump up the other 80% of your pay again, you may be sitting in front of being interviewed in a few months time. My advice to you when you are asked if you were furloughed... say "no" or that director might just hold a grudge and offer you the same "fuck all" you're happy to see them get by on now!  | |||
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"Don't forget to have your dividend vouchers in place and correctly issued on company earned profit Thanks to the likes of people like you and their Opinions, in April banks including Lloyds were pressured not to pay final dividends for 2019. Why? Because they were bailed out and people like you would moan about it. 1) Lloyds took on HBOS (at the request of Gordon Brown) preventing total collapse of the UK banking system wiping out countless millions of savers overnight. 2) Because they acquired HBOS (riddled with toxic debt) they then needed a bailout themselves (the Treasury acquiring shares) 3) The government charged INTEREST on the money, it wasn't free! 4) The Government sold it's shares at a PROFIT. 5) The Government received DIVIDENDS on it's shares in Lloyds! So, Lloyds owes The treasury and people like you NOTHING. BUT...because people like you have opinions they were "threatened" to not pay a final dividend for LAST YEAR 2019, despite having sufficient room to pay it and cope with Covid-19! In short the money that i INVESTED in Lloyds and which earned me a 2019 final dividend payable in May was cancelled in March! In real terms the £10,000 i was "guaranteed" in May simply vanished. SO, i pay my taxes and get nothing, because HMRC can't distinguish between the dividends my own company pays me and those paid by other companies. Those same companies the Government has "ordered" to pay me nothing. Yes, very fair. No doubt you're going to be fine so you probably couldn't give a toss either way. However, my big news for you is that i am arguing the principle here, i'm not on the bread line, far from it. My point is that Directors are getting hammered unfairly. They are the ones that when your boss decides he doesn't want to stump up the other 80% of your pay again, you may be sitting in front of being interviewed in a few months time. My advice to you when you are asked if you were furloughed... say "no" or that director might just hold a grudge and offer you the same "fuck all" you're happy to see them get by on now! "I don't think people really care about treasury and what they do with their money. Every other thread that has discussed this subject has revealed a resentment that many employed people have for those who earn a bit extra for the risks they take. I just want to say, yes, there are directors of LLCs who dodge taxes. But the majority of us have more because we work weekends, bank holidays, all nighters etc. Most people don't get to see that. The rules change when you work for yourself. The allure of self employment is not the rate of pay, nor any perceived tax benefit. I do it because I am rewarded in proportion to my effort. | |||
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"The government are aware of how small ltd company directors have fallen through the net. Even Martin Lewis thinks we've been screwed over. Petitions have been signed and the government have answered with the range of help available, none of which aimed at us. I run a business because i wanted to create, money, jobs, etc. This is teaching me that despite thinking it wrong for decades, the attitude "i'm alright jack" is probably right! Small companies are the lifeblood of UK business. If enough go to the wall those employees who end up on benefits will drain the system for a long time to come suffering hardship and misery along the way." I think threads like this illustrate just how effectively the HMRC has 'demonised' LLC directors. The House of Lords found 29 issues with the Off Payroll Tax System. And it all just blew away in the wind. | |||
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"I guess the government have to put a line somewhere. I am no expert on this but haven't they made loans available for businesses to help though this period? In terms of salary, obviously the tax man can't spend 6k a month because thats what some one earned. I think 2.5k is pretty generious and we will all be paying it back for our life time is all sorts of taxes personal and corporate. I get the argument of dividends. But this system was made on PAYE by the looks. So is the tax man saying really you should have been doing PAYE? " Small businesses (limited company status working from home) get absolutely nothing. £6000 a month!??? furlough salary based on minimum PAYE earnings would be £6000 a year! That's what our safety net is. Just over £100 per week!! HMRC have got all our tax returns. We complete one every fucking year. They just can't be bothered. It's as simple as checking the figures and claiming back any overpayment. I wonder how many people taking 80% of their salary from the Government would be so cocky if it were a loan with 5% interest added! That's the kind of deal a director would be offered! | |||
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"I guess the government have to put a line somewhere. I am no expert on this but haven't they made loans available for businesses to help though this period? In terms of salary, obviously the tax man can't spend 6k a month because thats what some one earned. I think 2.5k is pretty generious and we will all be paying it back for our life time is all sorts of taxes personal and corporate. I get the argument of dividends. But this system was made on PAYE by the looks. So is the tax man saying really you should have been doing PAYE? Small businesses (limited company status working from home) get absolutely nothing. £6000 a month!??? furlough salary based on minimum PAYE earnings would be £6000 a year! That's what our safety net is. Just over £100 per week!! HMRC have got all our tax returns. We complete one every fucking year. They just can't be bothered. It's as simple as checking the figures and claiming back any overpayment. I wonder how many people taking 80% of their salary from the Government would be so cocky if it were a loan with 5% interest added! That's the kind of deal a director would be offered!" I just suppose they have focused on salaries not dividends. | |||
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" By 5050Pair OP Man 3 minutes ago Kettering Excellent! I guess you have to be one to appreciate just how fucking shafted small and micro company directors have been. Nothing has changed for us... No pay via furlough No protection of profits No rates contributions No own share dividend earnings No investment share dividend earnings 3 sources of income and all three cut to zero at the same time. Nothing short of a huge slap in the face.. There are those of us with income that has shrunk from normal to nothing. Nothing we can do about it and zero help from the government. A typical small business director if furloughed would get around £6k per annum under the furlough scheme and to qualify for that they have to cripple their already flagging company because even as the sole employee they aren't then allowed to work, EXCEPT to comply with statutory requirements i.e. to do what the government needs doing...and for free!! I've worked from home in a micro ltd company for years because it gave me freedom, it was promoted as a great way to work, "way of the future" but it seems now that small businesses directors in the same position are worth less than dogshit in the chancellors eyes. I promise that WHEN i get through this i will have nothing but total contempt for HMRC and paying tax going forward. I have paid into the pot for 25 years as a director and unlike almost every other employee type am now told "fuck you" by the chancellor. Before you chirp up about paying myself via dividends to reduce tax, i've been paying a multitude of taxes for 25 years, i've sent in cheques for 10's of thousands. I pay my tax when it's due...IN ADVANCE! I do not rely on the state, never have but knowing that the state isn't there at all for people like me is a wakeup call. My message to the chancellor is "you reap what you sow" collecting my taxes going forward is going to be made as hard as possible and by whatever means necessary you complete fucking arsehole! There...now i feel a bit better! " Makes a change from companies screwing us 
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" By 5050Pair OP Man 3 minutes ago Kettering Excellent! I guess you have to be one to appreciate just how fucking shafted small and micro company directors have been. Nothing has changed for us... No pay via furlough No protection of profits No rates contributions No own share dividend earnings No investment share dividend earnings 3 sources of income and all three cut to zero at the same time. Nothing short of a huge slap in the face.. There are those of us with income that has shrunk from normal to nothing. Nothing we can do about it and zero help from the government. A typical small business director if furloughed would get around £6k per annum under the furlough scheme and to qualify for that they have to cripple their already flagging company because even as the sole employee they aren't then allowed to work, EXCEPT to comply with statutory requirements i.e. to do what the government needs doing...and for free!! I've worked from home in a micro ltd company for years because it gave me freedom, it was promoted as a great way to work, "way of the future" but it seems now that small businesses directors in the same position are worth less than dogshit in the chancellors eyes. I promise that WHEN i get through this i will have nothing but total contempt for HMRC and paying tax going forward. I have paid into the pot for 25 years as a director and unlike almost every other employee type am now told "fuck you" by the chancellor. Before you chirp up about paying myself via dividends to reduce tax, i've been paying a multitude of taxes for 25 years, i've sent in cheques for 10's of thousands. I pay my tax when it's due...IN ADVANCE! I do not rely on the state, never have but knowing that the state isn't there at all for people like me is a wakeup call. My message to the chancellor is "you reap what you sow" collecting my taxes going forward is going to be made as hard as possible and by whatever means necessary you complete fucking arsehole! There...now i feel a bit better! " TO be honest we have the same, have been quick to innovate for fear of bankruptcy and now with in a couple of weeks have a new viable business. | |||
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" By 5050Pair OP Man 3 minutes ago Kettering Excellent! I guess you have to be one to appreciate just how fucking shafted small and micro company directors have been. Nothing has changed for us... No pay via furlough No protection of profits No rates contributions No own share dividend earnings No investment share dividend earnings 3 sources of income and all three cut to zero at the same time. Nothing short of a huge slap in the face.. There are those of us with income that has shrunk from normal to nothing. Nothing we can do about it and zero help from the government. A typical small business director if furloughed would get around £6k per annum under the furlough scheme and to qualify for that they have to cripple their already flagging company because even as the sole employee they aren't then allowed to work, EXCEPT to comply with statutory requirements i.e. to do what the government needs doing...and for free!! I've worked from home in a micro ltd company for years because it gave me freedom, it was promoted as a great way to work, "way of the future" but it seems now that small businesses directors in the same position are worth less than dogshit in the chancellors eyes. I promise that WHEN i get through this i will have nothing but total contempt for HMRC and paying tax going forward. I have paid into the pot for 25 years as a director and unlike almost every other employee type am now told "fuck you" by the chancellor. Before you chirp up about paying myself via dividends to reduce tax, i've been paying a multitude of taxes for 25 years, i've sent in cheques for 10's of thousands. I pay my tax when it's due...IN ADVANCE! I do not rely on the state, never have but knowing that the state isn't there at all for people like me is a wakeup call. My message to the chancellor is "you reap what you sow" collecting my taxes going forward is going to be made as hard as possible and by whatever means necessary you complete fucking arsehole! There...now i feel a bit better! TO be honest we have the same, have been quick to innovate for fear of bankruptcy and now with in a couple of weeks have a new viable business." Chin up mush in a don’t wait for government to help us as they won’t mate | |||
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"Remember this ....so when the self employed go back to work ...earn fortunes ....give the governments what they have given you ...fuck all ....fiddle fiddle cash" That's nice piece of advise that will end up with people prosecuted. Also who would want to do business with a crook. | |||
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"Devil's advocate here. Would you opt into a PAYE scheme if you were given the same benefits as those already in PAYE ? Fairly simple question. If I was the chancellor I would see it as an investment to do something along those lines, accepting that in short term I would have to borrow even more but in the long term would bring in much steadier tax stream." Huh Didn't think there would be a clamour to do this. | |||
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"Love cash jobs ...I'm a builder and get offered cash by probably half my customers....keep it coming I say ...tks for your concern though" Oh you do talk a load of old cock sometimes....I guess you aren’t FMB registered lol | |||
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"I guess the government have to put a line somewhere. I am no expert on this but haven't they made loans available for businesses to help though this period? In terms of salary, obviously the tax man can't spend 6k a month because thats what some one earned. I think 2.5k is pretty generious and we will all be paying it back for our life time is all sorts of taxes personal and corporate. I get the argument of dividends. But this system was made on PAYE by the looks. So is the tax man saying really you should have been doing PAYE? Small businesses (limited company status working from home) get absolutely nothing. £6000 a month!??? furlough salary based on minimum PAYE earnings would be £6000 a year! That's what our safety net is. Just over £100 per week!! HMRC have got all our tax returns. We complete one every fucking year. They just can't be bothered. It's as simple as checking the figures and claiming back any overpayment. I wonder how many people taking 80% of their salary from the Government would be so cocky if it were a loan with 5% interest added! That's the kind of deal a director would be offered!" It is because you only declare a small amount of pay for your PAYE, they can only go on what you declare. | |||
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"Love cash jobs ...I'm a builder and get offered cash by probably half my customers....keep it coming I say ...tks for your concern though Oh you do talk a load of old cock sometimes....I guess you aren’t FMB registered lol "no m8 total bodge it type ...but only had business for 32 years ....32 years of old cock ....weep | |||
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"Devil's advocate here. Would you opt into a PAYE scheme if you were given the same benefits as those already in PAYE ? Fairly simple question. If I was the chancellor I would see it as an investment to do something along those lines, accepting that in short term I would have to borrow even more but in the long term would bring in much steadier tax stream. Huh Didn't think there would be a clamour to do this." It would seem this is not a terribly attractive idea. I wonder why that is ? | |||
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"Love cash jobs ...I'm a builder and get offered cash by probably half my customers....keep it coming I say ...tks for your concern though Oh you do talk a load of old cock sometimes....I guess you aren’t FMB registered lol no m8 total bodge it type ...but only had business for 32 years ....32 years of old cock ....weep"A real builder then? | |||
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" They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They don't. That is the whole point of doing it. Are you sure? If a company pay 19% CT on profit and then 32.5% on that same momey again that's 51.5%. How much is PAYE?" you are trying to lead people down the path of comparing your 51.5% with basic rate tax of 20% however if you are paying tax at that level then the only logical explanation is because you are describing the portion at the top level of your income (its not paid on all your dividends at that rate so dont pretend like it is) that top portion would be the equivalent to a high rate tax payer, where on PAYE it would be 40% paye tax, 13.8% employer national insurance (you are also the employer here)and 2% employee national insurance so 55.8% paye vs 51.5% director methods you cant claim in multiple posts that it makes no sense to volunteer to pay a higher rate of tax than you need to, then suggest the method of tax you choose is higher than the one you didnt  | |||
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" They actually pay more taxes than employed people. They don't. That is the whole point of doing it. Are you sure? If a company pay 19% CT on profit and then 32.5% on that same momey again that's 51.5%. How much is PAYE? you are trying to lead people down the path of comparing your 51.5% with basic rate tax of 20% however if you are paying tax at that level then the only logical explanation is because you are describing the portion at the top level of your income (its not paid on all your dividends at that rate so dont pretend like it is) that top portion would be the equivalent to a high rate tax payer, where on PAYE it would be 40% paye tax, 13.8% employer national insurance (you are also the employer here)and 2% employee national insurance so 55.8% paye vs 51.5% director methods you cant claim in multiple posts that it makes no sense to volunteer to pay a higher rate of tax than you need to, then suggest the method of tax you choose is higher than the one you didnt "“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”.” | |||
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"This is what happens if you use the system to pay less tax and national insurance. In a pandemic you will only get help with what you say you have been paid If you have a LTD company you still pay corporation tax, still pay tax and national insurance on your income (salary and dividends). Lots of people use the dividend method as they don’t have a constant stream of turn over. It’s very cynical and narrow minded do think if you pay yourself by dividends you are trying to fiddle tax. I take it you are against large business in the Uk who pay less than 1% corporation tax?" This is where directors get it wrong. A limited company is a person in its own right & therefore it should pay taxes as any other individual, because the company is not an actual person the tax is called corporation tax. Paying by dividends because the turnover fluctuates is against you as well, if you paid yourself by paye took a wage one month but a lower wage the next month you'd actually get a tax return to top you up. Big companies should be made to pay regardless, none of the tax deferred tax nonsense that they do, basically means the Corp tax amounts show on their books (p&l + balance sheet) even if it's not been physically paid. | |||
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"I just suppose they have focused on salaries not dividends. " The explanation is because they can't historically separate dividends from own shares and dividends from investment shares. Not that there are any dividends from investment shares right now of course! We fill in a tax return detailing our income and that's used to calculate tax payable. So if in a year i pay £10k, £20k, £50k tax that now counts for nothing. Any other time HMRC would be fine with the shortfall or surplus being made good either way later. To those who think paying a lower rate of tax through dividends is fiddling the system you are wrong. Don't confuse most small businesses with the likes of Amazon. We pay everything HMRC tells us to, within the rule book they write and on time, we are not fiddling! How much tax you pay is half the story, this isn't about tax, this is about survival. Don't confuse directors opting to take dividends with the likes of benefits cheats. We pay into the system like anyone on PAYE but in different ways and through taxes you possibly don't even know exist. | |||
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"Dividends are also supposed to be a bonus to shareholders for a good trading year, not just cos the director said so" Rubbish, Lloyds had a great year last year but the dividend was cancelled regardless. Dividends are now considered an income stream not a bonus. That's why pension funds chase them and what PAYE earners rely on in later life. | |||
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" To those who think paying a lower rate of tax through dividends is fiddling the system you are wrong. " It's a legal way of tax 'avoidance'. Many large scale companies employee bright accountants to look for and take advantage of loopholes to avoid paying tax, sometimes pushing rules to there limits. Drawing a minimum wage to pay less NI contributions could be construed as using the system. | |||
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" To those who think paying a lower rate of tax through dividends is fiddling the system you are wrong. It's a legal way of tax 'avoidance'. Many large scale companies employee bright accountants to look for and take advantage of loopholes to avoid paying tax, sometimes pushing rules to there limits. Drawing a minimum wage to pay less NI contributions could be construed as using the system. " Exactly this. There is no other reason for why a Ltd company Director pays themselves this way. | |||
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" To those who think paying a lower rate of tax through dividends is fiddling the system you are wrong. It's a legal way of tax 'avoidance'. Many large scale companies employee bright accountants to look for and take advantage of loopholes to avoid paying tax, sometimes pushing rules to there limits. Drawing a minimum wage to pay less NI contributions could be construed as using the system. Exactly this. There is no other reason for why a Ltd company Director pays themselves this way. " That's not fiddling the system. It's using tax laws to maximum effect without breaking the rules. How can you be obeying the law whilst at the same time breaking it? If their are "loopholes" then it's HMRC'S job to close them not the taxpayer's job not to take advantage of them. I still haven't heard from any permanently employed people who voluntarily pay more tax than they need to despite expecting others to do just that. | |||
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"I just suppose they have focused on salaries not dividends. The explanation is because they can't historically separate dividends from own shares and dividends from investment shares. Not that there are any dividends from investment shares right now of course! We fill in a tax return detailing our income and that's used to calculate tax payable. So if in a year i pay £10k, £20k, £50k tax that now counts for nothing. Any other time HMRC would be fine with the shortfall or surplus being made good either way later. To those who think paying a lower rate of tax through dividends is fiddling the system you are wrong. Don't confuse most small businesses with the likes of Amazon. We pay everything HMRC tells us to, within the rule book they write and on time, we are not fiddling! How much tax you pay is half the story, this isn't about tax, this is about survival. Don't confuse directors opting to take dividends with the likes of benefits cheats. We pay into the system like anyone on PAYE but in different ways and through taxes you possibly don't even know exist." This is a bit like having your car tuned to make it more fuel efficient and then being told you are robbing the oil companies | |||
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"I pay less tax so I have more money to give to charities where it goes to good use rather than paying for things like Boris Johnson's American hooker. If that makes me a bad person well I guess I am." She's not a hooker, she's an IT trainer. It's all in the report when we eventually get to read it. | |||
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" To those who think paying a lower rate of tax through dividends is fiddling the system you are wrong. It's a legal way of tax 'avoidance'. Many large scale companies employee bright accountants to look for and take advantage of loopholes to avoid paying tax, sometimes pushing rules to there limits. Drawing a minimum wage to pay less NI contributions could be construed as using the system. Exactly this. There is no other reason for why a Ltd company Director pays themselves this way. That's not fiddling the system. It's using tax laws to maximum effect without breaking the rules. How can you be obeying the law whilst at the same time breaking it? If their are "loopholes" then it's HMRC'S job to close them not the taxpayer's job not to take advantage of them. I still haven't heard from any permanently employed people who voluntarily pay more tax than they need to despite expecting others to do just that. " The maximum effect being more cash in your pocket. It’s not illegal, but do the decent thing and acknowledge what it really is. | |||
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" To those who think paying a lower rate of tax through dividends is fiddling the system you are wrong. It's a legal way of tax 'avoidance'. Many large scale companies employee bright accountants to look for and take advantage of loopholes to avoid paying tax, sometimes pushing rules to there limits. Drawing a minimum wage to pay less NI contributions could be construed as using the system. Exactly this. There is no other reason for why a Ltd company Director pays themselves this way. That's not fiddling the system. It's using tax laws to maximum effect without breaking the rules. How can you be obeying the law whilst at the same time breaking it? If their are "loopholes" then it's HMRC'S job to close them not the taxpayer's job not to take advantage of them. I still haven't heard from any permanently employed people who voluntarily pay more tax than they need to despite expecting others to do just that. " We all know why people set up LTD companies, it is a way of paying less tax and insurance. It is a legal way to keep more of your earnings. Asking people would they be willing to pay more tax and insurance in defence of you paying less tax and insurance is not a way to justify your argument. I don't have an issue with how people pay their tax if it is legal, but the likes of a pandemic will mean you will lose out if you have only paid yourself a small PAYE salary. It isn't the governments fault you fall through the cracks because that is how you wanted to do your accounts. I guess you could claim against the wage you declared and used any dividend that was paid/ saved as a top up to help you through this for a couple of months Most people put some money by | |||
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"Dividends are also supposed to be a bonus to shareholders for a good trading year, not just cos the director said so Rubbish, Lloyds had a great year last year but the dividend was cancelled regardless. Dividends are now considered an income stream not a bonus. That's why pension funds chase them and what PAYE earners rely on in later life. " dividends are a distribution of company reserves to shareholders they can be paid after a company has a good year yes but there is no obligation to do so and to distribute reserves in the middle of an economic crisis then have to turn round and rely on a handout to keep you afloat would be incredibly irresponsible | |||
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" To those who think paying a lower rate of tax through dividends is fiddling the system you are wrong. It's a legal way of tax 'avoidance'. Many large scale companies employee bright accountants to look for and take advantage of loopholes to avoid paying tax, sometimes pushing rules to there limits. Drawing a minimum wage to pay less NI contributions could be construed as using the system. Exactly this. There is no other reason for why a Ltd company Director pays themselves this way. That's not fiddling the system. It's using tax laws to maximum effect without breaking the rules. How can you be obeying the law whilst at the same time breaking it? If their are "loopholes" then it's HMRC'S job to close them not the taxpayer's job not to take advantage of them. I still haven't heard from any permanently employed people who voluntarily pay more tax than they need to despite expecting others to do just that. We all know why people set up LTD companies, it is a way of paying less tax and insurance. It is a legal way to keep more of your earnings. Asking people would they be willing to pay more tax and insurance in defence of you paying less tax and insurance is not a way to justify your argument. I don't have an issue with how people pay their tax if it is legal, but the likes of a pandemic will mean you will lose out if you have only paid yourself a small PAYE salary. It isn't the governments fault you fall through the cracks because that is how you wanted to do your accounts. I guess you could claim against the wage you declared and used any dividend that was paid/ saved as a top up to help you through this for a couple of months Most people put some money by " It's a reasonable argument. If people pay less tax they should get less support back. But what OP is pointing out that because he pays slightly less tax he gets NO support. If dividends aren't income they shouldn't be taxed. And if they are income then they should be factored in when determining a subsistence package. What is happening here is dividends are being considered income when it comes to taxation but then to be considered non income when determining a relief package. | |||
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"For all those whining about tax avoidance, just remember that anyone with an ISA or paying into a pension is also avoiding tax!" With current interest rates an ISA isn't really tax avoidance. I got a letter from Halifax today. My rate is now 0.25% | |||
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"I pay less tax so I have more money to give to charities where it goes to good use rather than paying for things like Boris Johnson's American hooker. If that makes me a bad person well I guess I am.She's not a hooker, she's an IT trainer. It's all in the report when we eventually get to read it. "Right
The ex model who comes around to give me my IT lessons also isn't a hooker. Can I claim her as a business expense.
But then my offers to buy PPE don't from the EU don't end up in my spam folder.
And my emails to my sister in law (named N.Farage) don't end up in Nigel Farage's inbox the way Boris Johnson's emails to Nigel end up going to my sister in law | |||
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"For all those whining about tax avoidance, just remember that anyone with an ISA or paying into a pension is also avoiding tax!" You pay tax on drawing your pension though | |||
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"For all those whining about tax avoidance, just remember that anyone with an ISA or paying into a pension is also avoiding tax! With current interest rates an ISA isn't really tax avoidance. I got a letter from Halifax today. My rate is now 0.25%" For those whining about tax avoidance perhaps question the expat system where billionaire businessmen avoid tax by spending a certain time outside the UK. | |||
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"For all those whining about tax avoidance, just remember that anyone with an ISA or paying into a pension is also avoiding tax! With current interest rates an ISA isn't really tax avoidance. I got a letter from Halifax today. My rate is now 0.25% For those whining about tax avoidance perhaps question the expat system where billionaire businessmen avoid tax by spending a certain time outside the UK." Im not whining, I would do the same. But people can't whine when they are disadvantaged by decisions the government make regarding the furlough scheme | |||
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"For all those whining about tax avoidance, just remember that anyone with an ISA or paying into a pension is also avoiding tax! With current interest rates an ISA isn't really tax avoidance. I got a letter from Halifax today. My rate is now 0.25% For those whining about tax avoidance perhaps question the expat system where billionaire businessmen avoid tax by spending a certain time outside the UK. Im not whining, I would do the same. But people can't whine when they are disadvantaged by decisions the government make regarding the furlough scheme " I'm not affected but I can see their point. If they were good enough to be taxed they are good enough to be subsidised too. | |||
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"I know someone who had a massive extension built on the advice of his accountant to 'get rid of some cash', two years later he gets a huge tax bill and he's got no help from the government which he's seething about. I told him to get a better accountant." I paid lots of money for what was supposed to be a massive extension.... sadly those penis enlargement pills don't work | |||
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"A friend of mine had a penis extension. Now his house looks really stupid. (c) Gary Delaney " | |||
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"Dividends are also supposed to be a bonus to shareholders for a good trading year, not just cos the director said so Rubbish, Lloyds had a great year last year but the dividend was cancelled regardless. Dividends are now considered an income stream not a bonus. That's why pension funds chase them and what PAYE earners rely on in later life. dividends are a distribution of company reserves to shareholders they can be paid after a company has a good year yes but there is no obligation to do so and to distribute reserves in the middle of an economic crisis then have to turn round and rely on a handout to keep you afloat would be incredibly irresponsible " So then banks shouldn't receive bailouts when markets crash? | |||
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"Dividends are also supposed to be a bonus to shareholders for a good trading year, not just cos the director said so Rubbish, Lloyds had a great year last year but the dividend was cancelled regardless. Dividends are now considered an income stream not a bonus. That's why pension funds chase them and what PAYE earners rely on in later life. dividends are a distribution of company reserves to shareholders they can be paid after a company has a good year yes but there is no obligation to do so and to distribute reserves in the middle of an economic crisis then have to turn round and rely on a handout to keep you afloat would be incredibly irresponsible So then banks shouldn't receive bailouts when markets crash? " is this exact example not a bank thats decided not to pay their dividend and to use those funds for the company instead or are we talking about a different lloyds? | |||
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"Dividends are also supposed to be a bonus to shareholders for a good trading year, not just cos the director said so Rubbish, Lloyds had a great year last year but the dividend was cancelled regardless. Dividends are now considered an income stream not a bonus. That's why pension funds chase them and what PAYE earners rely on in later life. dividends are a distribution of company reserves to shareholders they can be paid after a company has a good year yes but there is no obligation to do so and to distribute reserves in the middle of an economic crisis then have to turn round and rely on a handout to keep you afloat would be incredibly irresponsible So then banks shouldn't receive bailouts when markets crash? is this exact example not a bank thats decided not to pay their dividend and to use those funds for the company instead or are we talking about a different lloyds? " In 2008 we bailed out banks to protect people from losing their savings. In 2019 directors are asking to receive support in proportion to the tax they have paid in order that they continue to support other aspects vital to the economy and so that they continue to be revenue generating, tax paying citizens rather than bankrupt entities living on benefits. If they avoided tax completely then it is fair that they get nothing back. If they paid less tax than they could have but still paid more tax than the next guy then they have just as much right to survive. | |||
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" It's a reasonable argument. If people pay less tax they should get less support back. But what OP is pointing out that because he pays slightly less tax he gets NO support. If dividends aren't income they shouldn't be taxed. And if they are income then they should be factored in when determining a subsistence package. What is happening here is dividends are being considered income when it comes to taxation but then to be considered non income when determining a relief package. " He will according to Martin Lewis I can't put that link in but here is a bit of what it says " Limited company directors, even if they're the only employee, can furlough the PAYE element of their income, ie, get 80% of their salary up to £2,500/month. This isn't likely to be huge, as more income is dividends (and there's no help there), but it's something. If you do furlough yourself you can't then work for the firm, but you can continue to perform your statutory obligations as directors, eg, official legal filings (in the video Martin discusses how far this reaches)." | |||
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"As a small company director I would make a couple of points. First. If we make a loss in a year we can carry the loss forward or back one year effectively recovering past or future corporation tax. In 2009 the rules were relaxed from one to three years for a limited period. I suspect this will happen again. You cannot do this with income tax. Second. It is all very well to only pay yourself £9,000.00 a year and take the rest as dividends and/or expenses however you can only pay as much into a pension as you earn. Dividends, property rental etc. do not count. As pension contributions are extremely tax efficient it is generally better to pay yourself more so more can be payed into your pension. The tax benefits of pensions are available to everyone. There is a big difference between genuine small businesses and IR35 contractors. Whilst the government is keen to limit the activities of the latter, they do not want to get rid of them altogether. They provide flexibility in the labour market. If a company needs more labour they can get a contractor. Easy hire/ easy fire. The alternative to ensure we remain competitive in a global world would be to make it easier and cheaper to fire employees. A lot of people run themselves as a limited company for the very reason the concept of limited companies were set up in the first place. To limit their liability. To protect their personal assets. Would you think it fair if, as an employee, you cocked up big time that someone could take your house?" Your company can of course also make contributions to your pension scheme not directly dependent on earnings. Deductible against Corporation Tax and you don't pay tax on the contribution in the same way you would have done if you'd take the cash out as a dividend | |||
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" It's a reasonable argument. If people pay less tax they should get less support back. But what OP is pointing out that because he pays slightly less tax he gets NO support. If dividends aren't income they shouldn't be taxed. And if they are income then they should be factored in when determining a subsistence package. What is happening here is dividends are being considered income when it comes to taxation but then to be considered non income when determining a relief package. He will according to Martin Lewis I can't put that link in but here is a bit of what it says " Limited company directors, even if they're the only employee, can furlough the PAYE element of their income, ie, get 80% of their salary up to £2,500/month. This isn't likely to be huge, as more income is dividends (and there's no help there), but it's something. If you do furlough yourself you can't then work for the firm, but you can continue to perform your statutory obligations as directors, eg, official legal filings (in the video Martin discusses how far this reaches)."" You've hit the nail on the head. Why only PAYE element of their income? Why not other elements? Imagine if the roles were reversed and he said to employees that they would only get 80% of money they get paid in dividends? | |||
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"So you want cake and to eat it? I think to get what you want LTD companies should pay back all the NI they have underpaid over the years, fairs fair. " It's not an underpayment if it wasn't due in the first place | |||
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"So you want cake and to eat it? I think to get what you want LTD companies should pay back all the NI they have underpaid over the years, fairs fair. " It depends. If you think support from the government should be determined by NI payments. Then sure. If you think it should be determined by tax payments then one has too look at ALL the tax payments not just some of them. Rishi has already answered that question. He is already being asked how he plans to pay back the 300billion and he has said by raising income tax. Not national insurance. So Ltd company Directors are going to be asked to pay back the money that they were never given access to? (Since dividend payment tax is part of income tax not company tax). As I say this doesn't affect me personally. It 9:15pm and I am working. Harder than ever. My heart does break for the child of a Ltd Company Director who faces destitution because that childs father or mother chose one form of making a living over another. | |||
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" It's a reasonable argument. If people pay less tax they should get less support back. But what OP is pointing out that because he pays slightly less tax he gets NO support. If dividends aren't income they shouldn't be taxed. And if they are income then they should be factored in when determining a subsistence package. What is happening here is dividends are being considered income when it comes to taxation but then to be considered non income when determining a relief package. He will according to Martin Lewis I can't put that link in but here is a bit of what it says " Limited company directors, even if they're the only employee, can furlough the PAYE element of their income, ie, get 80% of their salary up to £2,500/month. This isn't likely to be huge, as more income is dividends (and there's no help there), but it's something. If you do furlough yourself you can't then work for the firm, but you can continue to perform your statutory obligations as directors, eg, official legal filings (in the video Martin discusses how far this reaches)." You've hit the nail on the head. Why only PAYE element of their income? Why not other elements? Imagine if the roles were reversed and he said to employees that they would only get 80% of money they get paid in dividends?" because they are subsidising peoples EMPLOYMENT income to stop the employer from having to make them unemployed you are looking to have INVESTMENT income subsidised and its outwith the scope, just the same as people wont get a subsidy on interest earned on savings now the rate has dropped , if you want to get the benefits and safety nets of being an employee, then maybe in future try being an employee , you wanted the reward that came with the risk of being a director, well unfortunately now the risks are outweighing the reward this is not a gloat, i'm not gleeful that these people are struggling, but the hard reality os , although the risks are heightened just now, they have always existed and savings for a period out of work should always be part of the business plan (as multiple people have mentioned this type of company regularly has gaps between contracts) | |||
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" It's a reasonable argument. If people pay less tax they should get less support back. But what OP is pointing out that because he pays slightly less tax he gets NO support. If dividends aren't income they shouldn't be taxed. And if they are income then they should be factored in when determining a subsistence package. What is happening here is dividends are being considered income when it comes to taxation but then to be considered non income when determining a relief package. He will according to Martin Lewis I can't put that link in but here is a bit of what it says " Limited company directors, even if they're the only employee, can furlough the PAYE element of their income, ie, get 80% of their salary up to £2,500/month. This isn't likely to be huge, as more income is dividends (and there's no help there), but it's something. If you do furlough yourself you can't then work for the firm, but you can continue to perform your statutory obligations as directors, eg, official legal filings (in the video Martin discusses how far this reaches)." You've hit the nail on the head. Why only PAYE element of their income? Why not other elements? Imagine if the roles were reversed and he said to employees that they would only get 80% of money they get paid in dividends? because they are subsidising peoples EMPLOYMENT income to stop the employer from having to make them unemployed you are looking to have INVESTMENT income subsidised and its outwith the scope, just the same as people wont get a subsidy on interest earned on savings now the rate has dropped , if you want to get the benefits and safety nets of being an employee, then maybe in future try being an employee , you wanted the reward that came with the risk of being a director, well unfortunately now the risks are outweighing the reward this is not a gloat, i'm not gleeful that these people are struggling, but the hard reality os , although the risks are heightened just now, they have always existed and savings for a period out of work should always be part of the business plan (as multiple people have mentioned this type of company regularly has gaps between contracts) " If there is no work because the market has turned then you are right. I took a risk and it didn't pay off. This however is a lockdown that should never have taken place. Many governments took early action and are now back up and running. We are in an extended lockdown because of foolish decisions made by an incompetent government. Why hard working entrepreneurs who contribute greatly to our economy and government coffers should be left destitute because they chose a payment strategy that any reasonable person in that position would have opted for is beyond me. The fact that payment through dividends is an option actually forces everyone down that route. Because anyone who took the less tax efficient option whould need to charge more to compensate for yhe extra taxes and price themselves out of the competitive market. | |||
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"I just suppose they have focused on salaries not dividends. The explanation is because they can't historically separate dividends from own shares and dividends from investment shares. Not that there are any dividends from investment shares right now of course! We fill in a tax return detailing our income and that's used to calculate tax payable. So if in a year i pay £10k, £20k, £50k tax that now counts for nothing. Any other time HMRC would be fine with the shortfall or surplus being made good either way later. To those who think paying a lower rate of tax through dividends is fiddling the system you are wrong. Don't confuse most small businesses with the likes of Amazon. We pay everything HMRC tells us to, within the rule book they write and on time, we are not fiddling! How much tax you pay is half the story, this isn't about tax, this is about survival. Don't confuse directors opting to take dividends with the likes of benefits cheats. We pay into the system like anyone on PAYE but in different ways and through taxes you possibly don't even know exist." Oh I do know the tax rules I can also read between the lines & know how to business & self employed use the tax laws to lower tax bills as much as possible, there are quite a few tax laws that lie on the "moral borderline".
You do know that if you went through paye you can deduct the ni & tax from your self assessment which would be for investment income like dividends.
If you pay a pension through paye it lowers your tax too because your taxed when you receive it.
Downside & why directors don't like going through paye is because the company also has to pay ni & tax contributions for its employees. Most directors don't classical the company as separate from themselves & view it as paying twice for their own money but legally company profits belong to the company, shareholders should get % dividends from that not the full years profit or whatever they feel like.
Big corps like Amazon are a nightmare, yet they are using the same rule books, just on a different scale.
Different if your a sole trader...it's all you then.
Benefit cheats are a different ball game and it's getting harder for them too. | |||
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"I pay less tax so I have more money to give to charities where it goes to good use rather than paying for things like Boris Johnson's American hooker. If that makes me a bad person well I guess I am." Paying to charities is a good cause & you get a tax break for your goodwill, make sure you click gift aid cos it'll be matched
Only problem with that is what charities are doing with it...several have had employees taking advantage of those they are meant to help & top dogs are on massive salaries... it's a charity. No need for that much. | |||
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" The fact that payment through dividends is an option actually forces everyone down that route. Because anyone who took the less tax efficient option whould need to charge more to compensate for yhe extra taxes and price themselves out of the competitive market." Personally think this is BS , you don't price according to your tax strategy , you've already said you pick the tax strategy to make sure as much as possible (out of the profits) end up in your pocket ... profits are never guaranteed and its a way of deciding how to divide up your profits whatever they may be choosing to divide them up differently doesn’t push any additional cost onto the customer, greed and trying to get more in your own pocket does , | |||
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"Dividends are paid to a shareholder and are not renumeration although people have chosen to treat them that way to lessen their direct personal tax burden. If I owned shares in a large multinational and they cancelled their dividend payments should I be entitled to government help ? Dividends are not not pay they are simply a share of a companies profits, I don't see how HMRC would currently be able to have one rule for shareholders who receive dividends in liue of pay and one for those who receive dividends as an investment. One other point is that many company owners have 50% of the shares in their partners names and pay dividends to them to make use of their personal tax allowance and also sometimes employ them on the minimum salary needed to qualify for NI stamps even though the reality is they do not actually do any work for company, in these cases should the partners also get government help? I am talking from past personal experience." | |||
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"For all those whining about tax avoidance, just remember that anyone with an ISA or paying into a pension is also avoiding tax! With current interest rates an ISA isn't really tax avoidance. I got a letter from Halifax today. My rate is now 0.25%" Aww, poor you. Interest on my account is .01%. By the way, i don't have an ISA because i don't look personally to avoid tax. I also own and lease out commercial premises, that hasn't been moved into a pension fund either. Any accountant will tell you that i could be saving plenty of tax but like i said, i am not looking to avoid paying it. I pay myself using dividends because my salary is made up of multiple income streams and basing it in just PAYE earnings from by business would leave my business stuffed. Where some of you get the idea we're all making an annual profit of millions from i don't know! My business isn't 100% about earning money it's about having freedom. In effect anyone on PAYE can have substancial savings but they aren't being asked to live off them. Someone who is a ltd Co director is being asked to deplete their savings and PAYE employees are not. One is getting a "FREE" ride, the other is not. Plenty of employers are topping up the 80% to full pay as well but rather than bitch about what you are getting in detail i'm just looking at the general rule applied when the Government are saying "everyone" will be protected. Again!! I am not destitute or facing financial ruin. I have savings and income streams. BUT my business is not my main income, it is my opportunity to top it up to have freedom to work in my own employment. If i am forced to cripple my own company then i lose my freedom to work for myself. That's what i lose, not just a bit of money. I am arguing the principle. How much tax is paid or in what way is NOT the issue. Even benefits claimants are looked after and i'm not saying they shouldn't be am i? | |||
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"is this exact example not a bank thats decided not to pay their dividend and to use those funds for the company instead or are we talking about a different lloyds? " NO IT IS ISN'T. Lloyds wanted to pay their dividend but was pressured by the Government not to because it would look bad. Lloyds knew a pandemic was here and have sufficient funds to cover that and the dividend payout but a letter from the FSA urged the banks not to pay out dividends. | |||
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"is this exact example not a bank thats decided not to pay their dividend and to use those funds for the company instead or are we talking about a different lloyds? NO IT IS ISN'T. Lloyds wanted to pay their dividend but was pressured by the Government not to because it would look bad. Lloyds knew a pandemic was here and have sufficient funds to cover that and the dividend payout but a letter from the FSA urged the banks not to pay out dividends. " they have not just cancelled dividends most have stopped internal investment spending too, like projects to upgrade technology etc nobody knows how long this is going to go on for and they have to be responsible with the reserves that they have that was my point in replying to a poster who was bringing up the 2008 bailout yet again on another thread because he doesn’t seem to comprehend the differences in the capital and liquidity requirements of banks now vs 2008, because rather than being stuck 12 years ago like he appears to be, banks actually (with guidance and regulation from the fca)learned from 2008 and put measures in place to prevent it happening again | |||
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"Different if your a sole trader...it's all you then. " Sure is! And a perfect storm if you're a limited company director in a company where you're the only employee with income from several sources. No need to ask you what SDRT is then? So i use company profit to buy shares then make a profit on those and want to take the tax "efficent" route to paying myself what i made...simple right?... SDRT (tax in buying the share) Coporation tax Income tax National insurance Capital gains tax Yes, i pay less PAYE and NI but i pay taxes PAYE don't ever see! Sooo much tax! Who knew eh! Oh, not forgetting, i'm not an accountant and by law i HAVE to use one of those so i have to pay him and his "Value Added Tax just to work it all out! | |||
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"Op & May contain full nuts (good few others too) - I'm sorry but you both need to learn business law, accounts & tax law. You have limited knowledge of what is actually happens in these areas, your perception of what is going on & how it all actually works & it's highly inaccurate. that's scary. BTW legally as a director you are both employed and self employed. Pay yourself through paye & you can get the benefits of an employee such a ssp. " What is scary is your ability to make decisions with very limited knowledge of the facts. Much of what you state is so wide of the mark and factually incorrect it's incredible. Watch the whole Martin Lewis video "even the bit where he sighs and you realise that he's saying certain small limited company directors are totally screwed under the rules set up. His advice is hope the government changes the current rules if it goes on longer, it is, they haven't. | |||
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"If it makes you feel better OP I agree it does feel a little unfair. Incidentally I was looking at doing something in the K town area due to the property prices. Would you recommend the market out that way? " I think the market for commercial premises (especially smaller business units) may be about to get flooded. Give it time for the rules to bite. | |||
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"I pay less tax so I have more money to give to charities where it goes to good use rather than paying for things like Boris Johnson's American hooker. If that makes me a bad person well I guess I am. Paying to charities is a good cause & you get a tax break for your goodwill, make sure you click gift aid cos it'll be matched
Only problem with that is what charities are doing with it...several have had employees taking advantage of those they are meant to help & top dogs are on massive salaries... it's a charity. No need for that much. "I do not give to charity organisations. I give to people whom I know are stuggling to get by. Single mothers are my favourite cause. I do this after tax so it's for no other reason than for my compassion for my fellow human being. My company supports The Brain Tumour Foundation which I trust because I know one of their fundraisers. | |||
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"Op & May contain full nuts (good few others too) - I'm sorry but you both need to learn business law, accounts & tax law. You have limited knowledge of what is actually happens in these areas, your perception of what is going on & how it all actually works & it's highly inaccurate. that's scary. BTW legally as a director you are both employed and self employed. Pay yourself through paye & you can get the benefits of an employee such a ssp. " Thank you. Apart from being patronising and condescending you have provides no information that I can actually use. I have recently found that my account wasn't doing the job properly, found I was paying too much tax. Showed them why, fixed it and then fired them. I now have an excellent accountant who I found it on fab swingers. My knowledge of tax is now the result of what I have learned from two separate accountants and six years of running a business. But yes I'm an engineer not a tax consultant. Any good tips will be well appreciated. Telling me I'm ignorant is just being insulting. | |||
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"is this exact example not a bank thats decided not to pay their dividend and to use those funds for the company instead or are we talking about a different lloyds? NO IT IS ISN'T. Lloyds wanted to pay their dividend but was pressured by the Government not to because it would look bad. Lloyds knew a pandemic was here and have sufficient funds to cover that and the dividend payout but a letter from the FSA urged the banks not to pay out dividends. they have not just cancelled dividends most have stopped internal investment spending too, like projects to upgrade technology etc nobody knows how long this is going to go on for and they have to be responsible with the reserves that they have that was my point in replying to a poster who was bringing up the 2008 bailout yet again on another thread because he doesn’t seem to comprehend the differences in the capital and liquidity requirements of banks now vs 2008, because rather than being stuck 12 years ago like he appears to be, banks actually (with guidance and regulation from the fca)learned from 2008 and put measures in place to prevent it happening again" OK so the final dividend for 2019 relates to profit in 2019. Declared and about to be paid. Covid-19 comes along. The governmnet use banks as vehicles to ensure money gets to businesses and individuals guaranteeing the bulk of loans. The bank is "warned" not to pay dividends that are the "reluctantly" CANCELLED. My dividend from, my investment of my money paying your furloughed 80% and rewarding me with nothing. You have a bad attitude. I am not resenting paying out the 80% but you resent my being entitled to anything. As it stands i have loaned money to the government at negative interest of around 3%, in real terms around £10,000. I have shares in Lloyds and RBS, i don't resent RBS holding back dividends but their balance sheet isn't in the same league as Lloyds at all. Shareholders are not taking the piss they are propping up business and the country and for their, trouble, pain and suffering they are accused of being the ones taking the piss. INCREDIBLE! | |||
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"is this exact example not a bank thats decided not to pay their dividend and to use those funds for the company instead or are we talking about a different lloyds? NO IT IS ISN'T. Lloyds wanted to pay their dividend but was pressured by the Government not to because it would look bad. Lloyds knew a pandemic was here and have sufficient funds to cover that and the dividend payout but a letter from the FSA urged the banks not to pay out dividends. they have not just cancelled dividends most have stopped internal investment spending too, like projects to upgrade technology etc nobody knows how long this is going to go on for and they have to be responsible with the reserves that they have that was my point in replying to a poster who was bringing up the 2008 bailout yet again on another thread because he doesn’t seem to comprehend the differences in the capital and liquidity requirements of banks now vs 2008, because rather than being stuck 12 years ago like he appears to be, banks actually (with guidance and regulation from the fca)learned from 2008 and put measures in place to prevent it happening again OK so the final dividend for 2019 relates to profit in 2019. Declared and about to be paid. Covid-19 comes along. The governmnet use banks as vehicles to ensure money gets to businesses and individuals guaranteeing the bulk of loans. The bank is "warned" not to pay dividends that are the "reluctantly" CANCELLED. My dividend from, my investment of my money paying your furloughed 80% and rewarding me with nothing. You have a bad attitude. I am not resenting paying out the 80% but you resent my being entitled to anything. As it stands i have loaned money to the government at negative interest of around 3%, in real terms around £10,000. I have shares in Lloyds and RBS, i don't resent RBS holding back dividends but their balance sheet isn't in the same league as Lloyds at all. Shareholders are not taking the piss they are propping up business and the country and for their, trouble, pain and suffering they are accused of being the ones taking the piss. INCREDIBLE! " I applied for a CBILS loans they day it was announced. So lomg ago that I can't remember when. I have folder for the countless emails saying that they are too busy please don't phone them. Since the the bounce back loan has come along and I can't get through the first page because my bank software says I am not a client of theirs. I have complained to my bank but they are looking into it. Still looking into it. At the moment I am getting by just fine on Ad Hoc work but have been out of contract since September because of IR35. CBILS and BBLS in my opinion are just another set of lies Rishi has publicized to look like a saviour when in fact all his empty words have done is wasted my time. If I was reliant on a bank loan right now I would be bankrupt. | |||
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"is this exact example not a bank thats decided not to pay their dividend and to use those funds for the company instead or are we talking about a different lloyds? NO IT IS ISN'T. Lloyds wanted to pay their dividend but was pressured by the Government not to because it would look bad. Lloyds knew a pandemic was here and have sufficient funds to cover that and the dividend payout but a letter from the FSA urged the banks not to pay out dividends. they have not just cancelled dividends most have stopped internal investment spending too, like projects to upgrade technology etc nobody knows how long this is going to go on for and they have to be responsible with the reserves that they have that was my point in replying to a poster who was bringing up the 2008 bailout yet again on another thread because he doesn’t seem to comprehend the differences in the capital and liquidity requirements of banks now vs 2008, because rather than being stuck 12 years ago like he appears to be, banks actually (with guidance and regulation from the fca)learned from 2008 and put measures in place to prevent it happening again OK so the final dividend for 2019 relates to profit in 2019. Declared and about to be paid. Covid-19 comes along. The governmnet use banks as vehicles to ensure money gets to businesses and individuals guaranteeing the bulk of loans. The bank is "warned" not to pay dividends that are the "reluctantly" CANCELLED. My dividend from, my investment of my money paying your furloughed 80% and rewarding me with nothing. You have a bad attitude. I am not resenting paying out the 80% but you resent my being entitled to anything. As it stands i have loaned money to the government at negative interest of around 3%, in real terms around £10,000. I have shares in Lloyds and RBS, i don't resent RBS holding back dividends but their balance sheet isn't in the same league as Lloyds at all. Shareholders are not taking the piss they are propping up business and the country and for their, trouble, pain and suffering they are accused of being the ones taking the piss. INCREDIBLE! I applied for a CBILS loans they day it was announced. So lomg ago that I can't remember when. I have folder for the countless emails saying that they are too busy please don't phone them. Since the the bounce back loan has come along and I can't get through the first page because my bank software says I am not a client of theirs. I have complained to my bank but they are looking into it. Still looking into it. At the moment I am getting by just fine on Ad Hoc work but have been out of contract since September because of IR35. CBILS and BBLS in my opinion are just another set of lies Rishi has publicized to look like a saviour when in fact all his empty words have done is wasted my time. If I was reliant on a bank loan right now I would be bankrupt. " why are you applying for a loan if you don’t need to right now ? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Several years ago i gave staff a christmas bonus. I dew the money out of my personal account making it as far as i was concerned a personal thank you from me to them to prevent them having to pay tax on it through PAYE and because it was a personal gift/thank you, from me to them. It mentioned during casual conversation during a tax audit following which dthe tax office wrote to me asking for the tax and NI. I told them where to go and after a fight they backed down. Did i fiddle tax then? Did i cheat the system or did i make it more personal drawing my already taxed money out of my personal account and giving it Free to them? " So far as the average jealous person on this thread is concerned you have more money than them, therefore you MUST be a crook. That's what it boils down to. To me you sound like a really nice guy and I commend you for your decency. No doubt someone will turn your good deeds and noble intentions into something twisted and nasty. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"is this exact example not a bank thats decided not to pay their dividend and to use those funds for the company instead or are we talking about a different lloyds? NO IT IS ISN'T. Lloyds wanted to pay their dividend but was pressured by the Government not to because it would look bad. Lloyds knew a pandemic was here and have sufficient funds to cover that and the dividend payout but a letter from the FSA urged the banks not to pay out dividends. they have not just cancelled dividends most have stopped internal investment spending too, like projects to upgrade technology etc nobody knows how long this is going to go on for and they have to be responsible with the reserves that they have that was my point in replying to a poster who was bringing up the 2008 bailout yet again on another thread because he doesn’t seem to comprehend the differences in the capital and liquidity requirements of banks now vs 2008, because rather than being stuck 12 years ago like he appears to be, banks actually (with guidance and regulation from the fca)learned from 2008 and put measures in place to prevent it happening again OK so the final dividend for 2019 relates to profit in 2019. Declared and about to be paid. Covid-19 comes along. The governmnet use banks as vehicles to ensure money gets to businesses and individuals guaranteeing the bulk of loans. The bank is "warned" not to pay dividends that are the "reluctantly" CANCELLED. My dividend from, my investment of my money paying your furloughed 80% and rewarding me with nothing. You have a bad attitude. I am not resenting paying out the 80% but you resent my being entitled to anything. As it stands i have loaned money to the government at negative interest of around 3%, in real terms around £10,000. I have shares in Lloyds and RBS, i don't resent RBS holding back dividends but their balance sheet isn't in the same league as Lloyds at all. Shareholders are not taking the piss they are propping up business and the country and for their, trouble, pain and suffering they are accused of being the ones taking the piss. INCREDIBLE! I applied for a CBILS loans they day it was announced. So lomg ago that I can't remember when. I have folder for the countless emails saying that they are too busy please don't phone them. Since the the bounce back loan has come along and I can't get through the first page because my bank software says I am not a client of theirs. I have complained to my bank but they are looking into it. Still looking into it. At the moment I am getting by just fine on Ad Hoc work but have been out of contract since September because of IR35. CBILS and BBLS in my opinion are just another set of lies Rishi has publicized to look like a saviour when in fact all his empty words have done is wasted my time. If I was reliant on a bank loan right now I would be bankrupt. why are you applying for a loan if you don’t need to right now ?" Because I have been out of contract since September and I hsve no guarantee of any oncome after each paycheck. If do get work I will pay the loan back but if I don't get work I won't go under. Are you suggesting that a person who scrapes, forages and keeps himself going through hard work and initiative shouldn't be given a loan because they aren't on the brink of starvation? Nice! But like I've said those loans are PR myths. So it's moot. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"is this exact example not a bank thats decided not to pay their dividend and to use those funds for the company instead or are we talking about a different lloyds? NO IT IS ISN'T. Lloyds wanted to pay their dividend but was pressured by the Government not to because it would look bad. Lloyds knew a pandemic was here and have sufficient funds to cover that and the dividend payout but a letter from the FSA urged the banks not to pay out dividends. they have not just cancelled dividends most have stopped internal investment spending too, like projects to upgrade technology etc nobody knows how long this is going to go on for and they have to be responsible with the reserves that they have that was my point in replying to a poster who was bringing up the 2008 bailout yet again on another thread because he doesn’t seem to comprehend the differences in the capital and liquidity requirements of banks now vs 2008, because rather than being stuck 12 years ago like he appears to be, banks actually (with guidance and regulation from the fca)learned from 2008 and put measures in place to prevent it happening again OK so the final dividend for 2019 relates to profit in 2019. Declared and about to be paid. Covid-19 comes along. The governmnet use banks as vehicles to ensure money gets to businesses and individuals guaranteeing the bulk of loans. The bank is "warned" not to pay dividends that are the "reluctantly" CANCELLED. My dividend from, my investment of my money paying your furloughed 80% and rewarding me with nothing. You have a bad attitude. I am not resenting paying out the 80% but you resent my being entitled to anything. As it stands i have loaned money to the government at negative interest of around 3%, in real terms around £10,000. I have shares in Lloyds and RBS, i don't resent RBS holding back dividends but their balance sheet isn't in the same league as Lloyds at all. Shareholders are not taking the piss they are propping up business and the country and for their, trouble, pain and suffering they are accused of being the ones taking the piss. INCREDIBLE! " im actually working full time and not on furlough so resenting or not what i am receiving from the government is null and void you have come to rely on dividend streams through past behaviour, but by their very nature they are not guaranteed, not even after a really good year dividends are not a payment to you of last years profit, how you run your personal director business has misled you that is how they work dividends are a distribution of current reserves to shareholders a company could have a bumper year but because of past performance not have enough retained earnings to give out anything i know that isnt the situation here but the theory remains the same ... if it is no longer appropriate to distribute those reserves, payment can be pulled at any time before it leaves the business and that has always been the case relying on dividends as a source of income is quite frankly madness in terms of financial planning | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Several years ago i gave staff a christmas bonus. I dew the money out of my personal account making it as far as i was concerned a personal thank you from me to them to prevent them having to pay tax on it through PAYE and because it was a personal gift/thank you, from me to them. It mentioned during casual conversation during a tax audit following which dthe tax office wrote to me asking for the tax and NI. I told them where to go and after a fight they backed down. Did i fiddle tax then? Did i cheat the system or did i make it more personal drawing my already taxed money out of my personal account and giving it Free to them? " you helped your staff to evade tax ... thats blindingly obvious wether you think you were doing them a favour or not | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"is this exact example not a bank thats decided not to pay their dividend and to use those funds for the company instead or are we talking about a different lloyds? NO IT IS ISN'T. Lloyds wanted to pay their dividend but was pressured by the Government not to because it would look bad. Lloyds knew a pandemic was here and have sufficient funds to cover that and the dividend payout but a letter from the FSA urged the banks not to pay out dividends. they have not just cancelled dividends most have stopped internal investment spending too, like projects to upgrade technology etc nobody knows how long this is going to go on for and they have to be responsible with the reserves that they have that was my point in replying to a poster who was bringing up the 2008 bailout yet again on another thread because he doesn’t seem to comprehend the differences in the capital and liquidity requirements of banks now vs 2008, because rather than being stuck 12 years ago like he appears to be, banks actually (with guidance and regulation from the fca)learned from 2008 and put measures in place to prevent it happening again OK so the final dividend for 2019 relates to profit in 2019. Declared and about to be paid. Covid-19 comes along. The governmnet use banks as vehicles to ensure money gets to businesses and individuals guaranteeing the bulk of loans. The bank is "warned" not to pay dividends that are the "reluctantly" CANCELLED. My dividend from, my investment of my money paying your furloughed 80% and rewarding me with nothing. You have a bad attitude. I am not resenting paying out the 80% but you resent my being entitled to anything. As it stands i have loaned money to the government at negative interest of around 3%, in real terms around £10,000. I have shares in Lloyds and RBS, i don't resent RBS holding back dividends but their balance sheet isn't in the same league as Lloyds at all. Shareholders are not taking the piss they are propping up business and the country and for their, trouble, pain and suffering they are accused of being the ones taking the piss. INCREDIBLE! I applied for a CBILS loans they day it was announced. So lomg ago that I can't remember when. I have folder for the countless emails saying that they are too busy please don't phone them. Since the the bounce back loan has come along and I can't get through the first page because my bank software says I am not a client of theirs. I have complained to my bank but they are looking into it. Still looking into it. At the moment I am getting by just fine on Ad Hoc work but have been out of contract since September because of IR35. CBILS and BBLS in my opinion are just another set of lies Rishi has publicized to look like a saviour when in fact all his empty words have done is wasted my time. If I was reliant on a bank loan right now I would be bankrupt. why are you applying for a loan if you don’t need to right now ? Because I have been out of contract since September and I hsve no guarantee of any oncome after each paycheck. If do get work I will pay the loan back but if I don't get work I won't go under. Are you suggesting that a person who scrapes, forages and keeps himself going through hard work and initiative shouldn't be given a loan because they aren't on the brink of starvation? Nice! But like I've said those loans are PR myths. So it's moot." Seems a strange attitude - I don’t need to borrow right now but I will because I’m entitled to and just in case I don’t get business in the future. Hmmm - I wonder how I’m going to pay back that loan ..... | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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"With current interest rates an ISA isn't really tax avoidance. I got a letter from Halifax today. My rate is now 0.25% Aww, poor you. Interest on my account is .01%. " My mistake. Just re-read the letter and it's 0.05%, not 0.25%. Irrelevant anyway as fuck all % is still fuck all %, and that ISA will be empty before the end of this. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"is this exact example not a bank thats decided not to pay their dividend and to use those funds for the company instead or are we talking about a different lloyds? NO IT IS ISN'T. Lloyds wanted to pay their dividend but was pressured by the Government not to because it would look bad. Lloyds knew a pandemic was here and have sufficient funds to cover that and the dividend payout but a letter from the FSA urged the banks not to pay out dividends. they have not just cancelled dividends most have stopped internal investment spending too, like projects to upgrade technology etc nobody knows how long this is going to go on for and they have to be responsible with the reserves that they have that was my point in replying to a poster who was bringing up the 2008 bailout yet again on another thread because he doesn’t seem to comprehend the differences in the capital and liquidity requirements of banks now vs 2008, because rather than being stuck 12 years ago like he appears to be, banks actually (with guidance and regulation from the fca)learned from 2008 and put measures in place to prevent it happening again OK so the final dividend for 2019 relates to profit in 2019. Declared and about to be paid. Covid-19 comes along. The governmnet use banks as vehicles to ensure money gets to businesses and individuals guaranteeing the bulk of loans. The bank is "warned" not to pay dividends that are the "reluctantly" CANCELLED. My dividend from, my investment of my money paying your furloughed 80% and rewarding me with nothing. You have a bad attitude. I am not resenting paying out the 80% but you resent my being entitled to anything. As it stands i have loaned money to the government at negative interest of around 3%, in real terms around £10,000. I have shares in Lloyds and RBS, i don't resent RBS holding back dividends but their balance sheet isn't in the same league as Lloyds at all. Shareholders are not taking the piss they are propping up business and the country and for their, trouble, pain and suffering they are accused of being the ones taking the piss. INCREDIBLE! I applied for a CBILS loans they day it was announced. So lomg ago that I can't remember when. I have folder for the countless emails saying that they are too busy please don't phone them. Since the the bounce back loan has come along and I can't get through the first page because my bank software says I am not a client of theirs. I have complained to my bank but they are looking into it. Still looking into it. At the moment I am getting by just fine on Ad Hoc work but have been out of contract since September because of IR35. CBILS and BBLS in my opinion are just another set of lies Rishi has publicized to look like a saviour when in fact all his empty words have done is wasted my time. If I was reliant on a bank loan right now I would be bankrupt. why are you applying for a loan if you don’t need to right now ? Because I have been out of contract since September and I hsve no guarantee of any oncome after each paycheck. If do get work I will pay the loan back but if I don't get work I won't go under. Are you suggesting that a person who scrapes, forages and keeps himself going through hard work and initiative shouldn't be given a loan because they aren't on the brink of starvation? Nice! But like I've said those loans are PR myths. So it's moot. Seems a strange attitude - I don’t need to borrow right now but I will because I’m entitled to and just in case I don’t get business in the future. Hmmm - I wonder how I’m going to pay back that loan ....." At which stage would you like me to apply for a loan. When I habe already declared bankruptcy. I am not in contract. Have not been since September. Effectively unemployed for over 6 months. First you say loans shouldn't be given to people who don't desperately need them, the follow it up by saying that people who desperately need loans probably can't pay them back | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Several years ago i gave staff a christmas bonus. I dew the money out of my personal account making it as far as i was concerned a personal thank you from me to them to prevent them having to pay tax on it through PAYE and because it was a personal gift/thank you, from me to them. It mentioned during casual conversation during a tax audit following which dthe tax office wrote to me asking for the tax and NI. I told them where to go and after a fight they backed down. Did i fiddle tax then? Did i cheat the system or did i make it more personal drawing my already taxed money out of my personal account and giving it Free to them? you helped your staff to evade tax ... thats blindingly obvious wether you think you were doing them a favour or not " Told ya! | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"is this exact example not a bank thats decided not to pay their dividend and to use those funds for the company instead or are we talking about a different lloyds? NO IT IS ISN'T. Lloyds wanted to pay their dividend but was pressured by the Government not to because it would look bad. Lloyds knew a pandemic was here and have sufficient funds to cover that and the dividend payout but a letter from the FSA urged the banks not to pay out dividends. they have not just cancelled dividends most have stopped internal investment spending too, like projects to upgrade technology etc nobody knows how long this is going to go on for and they have to be responsible with the reserves that they have that was my point in replying to a poster who was bringing up the 2008 bailout yet again on another thread because he doesn’t seem to comprehend the differences in the capital and liquidity requirements of banks now vs 2008, because rather than being stuck 12 years ago like he appears to be, banks actually (with guidance and regulation from the fca)learned from 2008 and put measures in place to prevent it happening again OK so the final dividend for 2019 relates to profit in 2019. Declared and about to be paid. Covid-19 comes along. The governmnet use banks as vehicles to ensure money gets to businesses and individuals guaranteeing the bulk of loans. The bank is "warned" not to pay dividends that are the "reluctantly" CANCELLED. My dividend from, my investment of my money paying your furloughed 80% and rewarding me with nothing. You have a bad attitude. I am not resenting paying out the 80% but you resent my being entitled to anything. As it stands i have loaned money to the government at negative interest of around 3%, in real terms around £10,000. I have shares in Lloyds and RBS, i don't resent RBS holding back dividends but their balance sheet isn't in the same league as Lloyds at all. Shareholders are not taking the piss they are propping up business and the country and for their, trouble, pain and suffering they are accused of being the ones taking the piss. INCREDIBLE! I applied for a CBILS loans they day it was announced. So lomg ago that I can't remember when. I have folder for the countless emails saying that they are too busy please don't phone them. Since the the bounce back loan has come along and I can't get through the first page because my bank software says I am not a client of theirs. I have complained to my bank but they are looking into it. Still looking into it. At the moment I am getting by just fine on Ad Hoc work but have been out of contract since September because of IR35. CBILS and BBLS in my opinion are just another set of lies Rishi has publicized to look like a saviour when in fact all his empty words have done is wasted my time. If I was reliant on a bank loan right now I would be bankrupt. why are you applying for a loan if you don’t need to right now ? Because I have been out of contract since September and I hsve no guarantee of any oncome after each paycheck. If do get work I will pay the loan back but if I don't get work I won't go under. Are you suggesting that a person who scrapes, forages and keeps himself going through hard work and initiative shouldn't be given a loan because they aren't on the brink of starvation? Nice! But like I've said those loans are PR myths. So it's moot. Seems a strange attitude - I don’t need to borrow right now but I will because I’m entitled to and just in case I don’t get business in the future. Hmmm - I wonder how I’m going to pay back that loan ..... At which stage would you like me to apply for a loan. When I habe already declared bankruptcy. I am not in contract. Have not been since September. Effectively unemployed for over 6 months. First you say loans shouldn't be given to people who don't desperately need them, the follow it up by saying that people who desperately need loans probably can't pay them back "Why saddle yourself with a debt that, by your own admission, you don’t need. It’s that attitude of entitlement again isn’t it - “I’ve paid in, I’m entitled to it so I bloody well will have it (whether I need it or not)!” ? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"is this exact example not a bank thats decided not to pay their dividend and to use those funds for the company instead or are we talking about a different lloyds? NO IT IS ISN'T. Lloyds wanted to pay their dividend but was pressured by the Government not to because it would look bad. Lloyds knew a pandemic was here and have sufficient funds to cover that and the dividend payout but a letter from the FSA urged the banks not to pay out dividends. they have not just cancelled dividends most have stopped internal investment spending too, like projects to upgrade technology etc nobody knows how long this is going to go on for and they have to be responsible with the reserves that they have that was my point in replying to a poster who was bringing up the 2008 bailout yet again on another thread because he doesn’t seem to comprehend the differences in the capital and liquidity requirements of banks now vs 2008, because rather than being stuck 12 years ago like he appears to be, banks actually (with guidance and regulation from the fca)learned from 2008 and put measures in place to prevent it happening again OK so the final dividend for 2019 relates to profit in 2019. Declared and about to be paid. Covid-19 comes along. The governmnet use banks as vehicles to ensure money gets to businesses and individuals guaranteeing the bulk of loans. The bank is "warned" not to pay dividends that are the "reluctantly" CANCELLED. My dividend from, my investment of my money paying your furloughed 80% and rewarding me with nothing. You have a bad attitude. I am not resenting paying out the 80% but you resent my being entitled to anything. As it stands i have loaned money to the government at negative interest of around 3%, in real terms around £10,000. I have shares in Lloyds and RBS, i don't resent RBS holding back dividends but their balance sheet isn't in the same league as Lloyds at all. Shareholders are not taking the piss they are propping up business and the country and for their, trouble, pain and suffering they are accused of being the ones taking the piss. INCREDIBLE! I applied for a CBILS loans they day it was announced. So lomg ago that I can't remember when. I have folder for the countless emails saying that they are too busy please don't phone them. Since the the bounce back loan has come along and I can't get through the first page because my bank software says I am not a client of theirs. I have complained to my bank but they are looking into it. Still looking into it. At the moment I am getting by just fine on Ad Hoc work but have been out of contract since September because of IR35. CBILS and BBLS in my opinion are just another set of lies Rishi has publicized to look like a saviour when in fact all his empty words have done is wasted my time. If I was reliant on a bank loan right now I would be bankrupt. why are you applying for a loan if you don’t need to right now ? Because I have been out of contract since September and I hsve no guarantee of any oncome after each paycheck. If do get work I will pay the loan back but if I don't get work I won't go under. Are you suggesting that a person who scrapes, forages and keeps himself going through hard work and initiative shouldn't be given a loan because they aren't on the brink of starvation? Nice! But like I've said those loans are PR myths. So it's moot. Seems a strange attitude - I don’t need to borrow right now but I will because I’m entitled to and just in case I don’t get business in the future. Hmmm - I wonder how I’m going to pay back that loan ..... At which stage would you like me to apply for a loan. When I habe already declared bankruptcy. I am not in contract. Have not been since September. Effectively unemployed for over 6 months. First you say loans shouldn't be given to people who don't desperately need them, the follow it up by saying that people who desperately need loans probably can't pay them back
Why saddle yourself with a debt that, by your own admission, you don’t need.
It’s that attitude of entitlement again isn’t it - “I’ve paid in, I’m entitled to it so I bloody well will have it (whether I need it or not)!” ?
"No it's because I am actually owed a large sum of money for work already completed but can't get my money out of these people because their purchasing departments are all on furlough and the people required to sign off those payments are not at work. All I need is a loan to tide me over until these people get back to work. But if you want to talk about entitlement sure. I could furlough myself and live off the 80% the government would give me. Instead I have chosen to pick up odd jobs to keep me going so that I am not a burden to an already overloaded system. Yet I am being judged by a group of people who are at home doing nothing living on handouts. So sure there is a lot of entitlement. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"is this exact example not a bank thats decided not to pay their dividend and to use those funds for the company instead or are we talking about a different lloyds? NO IT IS ISN'T. Lloyds wanted to pay their dividend but was pressured by the Government not to because it would look bad. Lloyds knew a pandemic was here and have sufficient funds to cover that and the dividend payout but a letter from the FSA urged the banks not to pay out dividends. they have not just cancelled dividends most have stopped internal investment spending too, like projects to upgrade technology etc nobody knows how long this is going to go on for and they have to be responsible with the reserves that they have that was my point in replying to a poster who was bringing up the 2008 bailout yet again on another thread because he doesn’t seem to comprehend the differences in the capital and liquidity requirements of banks now vs 2008, because rather than being stuck 12 years ago like he appears to be, banks actually (with guidance and regulation from the fca)learned from 2008 and put measures in place to prevent it happening again OK so the final dividend for 2019 relates to profit in 2019. Declared and about to be paid. Covid-19 comes along. The governmnet use banks as vehicles to ensure money gets to businesses and individuals guaranteeing the bulk of loans. The bank is "warned" not to pay dividends that are the "reluctantly" CANCELLED. My dividend from, my investment of my money paying your furloughed 80% and rewarding me with nothing. You have a bad attitude. I am not resenting paying out the 80% but you resent my being entitled to anything. As it stands i have loaned money to the government at negative interest of around 3%, in real terms around £10,000. I have shares in Lloyds and RBS, i don't resent RBS holding back dividends but their balance sheet isn't in the same league as Lloyds at all. Shareholders are not taking the piss they are propping up business and the country and for their, trouble, pain and suffering they are accused of being the ones taking the piss. INCREDIBLE! I applied for a CBILS loans they day it was announced. So lomg ago that I can't remember when. I have folder for the countless emails saying that they are too busy please don't phone them. Since the the bounce back loan has come along and I can't get through the first page because my bank software says I am not a client of theirs. I have complained to my bank but they are looking into it. Still looking into it. At the moment I am getting by just fine on Ad Hoc work but have been out of contract since September because of IR35. CBILS and BBLS in my opinion are just another set of lies Rishi has publicized to look like a saviour when in fact all his empty words have done is wasted my time. If I was reliant on a bank loan right now I would be bankrupt. why are you applying for a loan if you don’t need to right now ? Because I have been out of contract since September and I hsve no guarantee of any oncome after each paycheck. If do get work I will pay the loan back but if I don't get work I won't go under. Are you suggesting that a person who scrapes, forages and keeps himself going through hard work and initiative shouldn't be given a loan because they aren't on the brink of starvation? Nice! But like I've said those loans are PR myths. So it's moot. Seems a strange attitude - I don’t need to borrow right now but I will because I’m entitled to and just in case I don’t get business in the future. Hmmm - I wonder how I’m going to pay back that loan ..... At which stage would you like me to apply for a loan. When I habe already declared bankruptcy. I am not in contract. Have not been since September. Effectively unemployed for over 6 months. First you say loans shouldn't be given to people who don't desperately need them, the follow it up by saying that people who desperately need loans probably can't pay them back
Why saddle yourself with a debt that, by your own admission, you don’t need.
It’s that attitude of entitlement again isn’t it - “I’ve paid in, I’m entitled to it so I bloody well will have it (whether I need it or not)!” ?
"By the way I DO need it desperately. So does the fact that I've managed to scrape by this far mean that I don't need it? I suppose shipwreck survivors don't need rescuing because they are still alive? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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"is this exact example not a bank thats decided not to pay their dividend and to use those funds for the company instead or are we talking about a different lloyds? NO IT IS ISN'T. Lloyds wanted to pay their dividend but was pressured by the Government not to because it would look bad. Lloyds knew a pandemic was here and have sufficient funds to cover that and the dividend payout but a letter from the FSA urged the banks not to pay out dividends. they have not just cancelled dividends most have stopped internal investment spending too, like projects to upgrade technology etc nobody knows how long this is going to go on for and they have to be responsible with the reserves that they have that was my point in replying to a poster who was bringing up the 2008 bailout yet again on another thread because he doesn’t seem to comprehend the differences in the capital and liquidity requirements of banks now vs 2008, because rather than being stuck 12 years ago like he appears to be, banks actually (with guidance and regulation from the fca)learned from 2008 and put measures in place to prevent it happening again OK so the final dividend for 2019 relates to profit in 2019. Declared and about to be paid. Covid-19 comes along. The governmnet use banks as vehicles to ensure money gets to businesses and individuals guaranteeing the bulk of loans. The bank is "warned" not to pay dividends that are the "reluctantly" CANCELLED. My dividend from, my investment of my money paying your furloughed 80% and rewarding me with nothing. You have a bad attitude. I am not resenting paying out the 80% but you resent my being entitled to anything. As it stands i have loaned money to the government at negative interest of around 3%, in real terms around £10,000. I have shares in Lloyds and RBS, i don't resent RBS holding back dividends but their balance sheet isn't in the same league as Lloyds at all. Shareholders are not taking the piss they are propping up business and the country and for their, trouble, pain and suffering they are accused of being the ones taking the piss. INCREDIBLE! I applied for a CBILS loans they day it was announced. So lomg ago that I can't remember when. I have folder for the countless emails saying that they are too busy please don't phone them. Since the the bounce back loan has come along and I can't get through the first page because my bank software says I am not a client of theirs. I have complained to my bank but they are looking into it. Still looking into it. At the moment I am getting by just fine on Ad Hoc work but have been out of contract since September because of IR35. CBILS and BBLS in my opinion are just another set of lies Rishi has publicized to look like a saviour when in fact all his empty words have done is wasted my time. If I was reliant on a bank loan right now I would be bankrupt. why are you applying for a loan if you don’t need to right now ? Because I have been out of contract since September and I hsve no guarantee of any oncome after each paycheck. If do get work I will pay the loan back but if I don't get work I won't go under. Are you suggesting that a person who scrapes, forages and keeps himself going through hard work and initiative shouldn't be given a loan because they aren't on the brink of starvation? Nice! But like I've said those loans are PR myths. So it's moot. Seems a strange attitude - I don’t need to borrow right now but I will because I’m entitled to and just in case I don’t get business in the future. Hmmm - I wonder how I’m going to pay back that loan ..... At which stage would you like me to apply for a loan. When I habe already declared bankruptcy. I am not in contract. Have not been since September. Effectively unemployed for over 6 months. First you say loans shouldn't be given to people who don't desperately need them, the follow it up by saying that people who desperately need loans probably can't pay them back
Why saddle yourself with a debt that, by your own admission, you don’t need.
It’s that attitude of entitlement again isn’t it - “I’ve paid in, I’m entitled to it so I bloody well will have it (whether I need it or not)!” ?
No it's because I am actually owed a large sum of money for work already completed but can't get my money out of these people because their purchasing departments are all on furlough and the people required to sign off those payments are not at work.
All I need is a loan to tide me over until these people get back to work.
But if you want to talk about entitlement sure. I could furlough myself and live off the 80% the government would give me.
Instead I have chosen to pick up odd jobs to keep me going so that I am not a burden to an already overloaded system. Yet I am being judged by a group of people who are at home doing nothing living on handouts. So sure there is a lot of entitlement. "Short term finance for your situation is not difficult to secure, even in normal times | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"is this exact example not a bank thats decided not to pay their dividend and to use those funds for the company instead or are we talking about a different lloyds? NO IT IS ISN'T. Lloyds wanted to pay their dividend but was pressured by the Government not to because it would look bad. Lloyds knew a pandemic was here and have sufficient funds to cover that and the dividend payout but a letter from the FSA urged the banks not to pay out dividends. they have not just cancelled dividends most have stopped internal investment spending too, like projects to upgrade technology etc nobody knows how long this is going to go on for and they have to be responsible with the reserves that they have that was my point in replying to a poster who was bringing up the 2008 bailout yet again on another thread because he doesn’t seem to comprehend the differences in the capital and liquidity requirements of banks now vs 2008, because rather than being stuck 12 years ago like he appears to be, banks actually (with guidance and regulation from the fca)learned from 2008 and put measures in place to prevent it happening again OK so the final dividend for 2019 relates to profit in 2019. Declared and about to be paid. Covid-19 comes along. The governmnet use banks as vehicles to ensure money gets to businesses and individuals guaranteeing the bulk of loans. The bank is "warned" not to pay dividends that are the "reluctantly" CANCELLED. My dividend from, my investment of my money paying your furloughed 80% and rewarding me with nothing. You have a bad attitude. I am not resenting paying out the 80% but you resent my being entitled to anything. As it stands i have loaned money to the government at negative interest of around 3%, in real terms around £10,000. I have shares in Lloyds and RBS, i don't resent RBS holding back dividends but their balance sheet isn't in the same league as Lloyds at all. Shareholders are not taking the piss they are propping up business and the country and for their, trouble, pain and suffering they are accused of being the ones taking the piss. INCREDIBLE! I applied for a CBILS loans they day it was announced. So lomg ago that I can't remember when. I have folder for the countless emails saying that they are too busy please don't phone them. Since the the bounce back loan has come along and I can't get through the first page because my bank software says I am not a client of theirs. I have complained to my bank but they are looking into it. Still looking into it. At the moment I am getting by just fine on Ad Hoc work but have been out of contract since September because of IR35. CBILS and BBLS in my opinion are just another set of lies Rishi has publicized to look like a saviour when in fact all his empty words have done is wasted my time. If I was reliant on a bank loan right now I would be bankrupt. why are you applying for a loan if you don’t need to right now ? Because I have been out of contract since September and I hsve no guarantee of any oncome after each paycheck. If do get work I will pay the loan back but if I don't get work I won't go under. Are you suggesting that a person who scrapes, forages and keeps himself going through hard work and initiative shouldn't be given a loan because they aren't on the brink of starvation? Nice! But like I've said those loans are PR myths. So it's moot. Seems a strange attitude - I don’t need to borrow right now but I will because I’m entitled to and just in case I don’t get business in the future. Hmmm - I wonder how I’m going to pay back that loan ..... At which stage would you like me to apply for a loan. When I habe already declared bankruptcy. I am not in contract. Have not been since September. Effectively unemployed for over 6 months. First you say loans shouldn't be given to people who don't desperately need them, the follow it up by saying that people who desperately need loans probably can't pay them back
Why saddle yourself with a debt that, by your own admission, you don’t need.
It’s that attitude of entitlement again isn’t it - “I’ve paid in, I’m entitled to it so I bloody well will have it (whether I need it or not)!” ?
No it's because I am actually owed a large sum of money for work already completed but can't get my money out of these people because their purchasing departments are all on furlough and the people required to sign off those payments are not at work.
All I need is a loan to tide me over until these people get back to work.
But if you want to talk about entitlement sure. I could furlough myself and live off the 80% the government would give me.
Instead I have chosen to pick up odd jobs to keep me going so that I am not a burden to an already overloaded system. Yet I am being judged by a group of people who are at home doing nothing living on handouts. So sure there is a lot of entitlement.
Short term finance for your situation is not difficult to secure, even in normal times "So are you saying I am lying? Perhaps if you picked on this which is the point I was trying to make instead of pedantically nitpicking a situation you don't have the full details of, you would understand that the point I am making is that the Bounce Back loan that was supposed to be approved or declined within 24 hours is beyond my reach. I would go to a different bank but their are articles on the web describing that everyone is having the same issues. I actually commented on this forum to contribute my experience toward what OP has stated. Not be put on trial by a boorish self appointed judge of my moral fibre. Good luck OP. I wish you well. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"is this exact example not a bank thats decided not to pay their dividend and to use those funds for the company instead or are we talking about a different lloyds? NO IT IS ISN'T. Lloyds wanted to pay their dividend but was pressured by the Government not to because it would look bad. Lloyds knew a pandemic was here and have sufficient funds to cover that and the dividend payout but a letter from the FSA urged the banks not to pay out dividends. they have not just cancelled dividends most have stopped internal investment spending too, like projects to upgrade technology etc nobody knows how long this is going to go on for and they have to be responsible with the reserves that they have that was my point in replying to a poster who was bringing up the 2008 bailout yet again on another thread because he doesn’t seem to comprehend the differences in the capital and liquidity requirements of banks now vs 2008, because rather than being stuck 12 years ago like he appears to be, banks actually (with guidance and regulation from the fca)learned from 2008 and put measures in place to prevent it happening again OK so the final dividend for 2019 relates to profit in 2019. Declared and about to be paid. Covid-19 comes along. The governmnet use banks as vehicles to ensure money gets to businesses and individuals guaranteeing the bulk of loans. The bank is "warned" not to pay dividends that are the "reluctantly" CANCELLED. My dividend from, my investment of my money paying your furloughed 80% and rewarding me with nothing. You have a bad attitude. I am not resenting paying out the 80% but you resent my being entitled to anything. As it stands i have loaned money to the government at negative interest of around 3%, in real terms around £10,000. I have shares in Lloyds and RBS, i don't resent RBS holding back dividends but their balance sheet isn't in the same league as Lloyds at all. Shareholders are not taking the piss they are propping up business and the country and for their, trouble, pain and suffering they are accused of being the ones taking the piss. INCREDIBLE! I applied for a CBILS loans they day it was announced. So lomg ago that I can't remember when. I have folder for the countless emails saying that they are too busy please don't phone them. Since the the bounce back loan has come along and I can't get through the first page because my bank software says I am not a client of theirs. I have complained to my bank but they are looking into it. Still looking into it. At the moment I am getting by just fine on Ad Hoc work but have been out of contract since September because of IR35. CBILS and BBLS in my opinion are just another set of lies Rishi has publicized to look like a saviour when in fact all his empty words have done is wasted my time. If I was reliant on a bank loan right now I would be bankrupt. why are you applying for a loan if you don’t need to right now ? Because I have been out of contract since September and I hsve no guarantee of any oncome after each paycheck. If do get work I will pay the loan back but if I don't get work I won't go under. Are you suggesting that a person who scrapes, forages and keeps himself going through hard work and initiative shouldn't be given a loan because they aren't on the brink of starvation? Nice! But like I've said those loans are PR myths. So it's moot. Seems a strange attitude - I don’t need to borrow right now but I will because I’m entitled to and just in case I don’t get business in the future. Hmmm - I wonder how I’m going to pay back that loan ..... At which stage would you like me to apply for a loan. When I habe already declared bankruptcy. I am not in contract. Have not been since September. Effectively unemployed for over 6 months. First you say loans shouldn't be given to people who don't desperately need them, the follow it up by saying that people who desperately need loans probably can't pay them back
Why saddle yourself with a debt that, by your own admission, you don’t need.
It’s that attitude of entitlement again isn’t it - “I’ve paid in, I’m entitled to it so I bloody well will have it (whether I need it or not)!” ?
No it's because I am actually owed a large sum of money for work already completed but can't get my money out of these people because their purchasing departments are all on furlough and the people required to sign off those payments are not at work.
All I need is a loan to tide me over until these people get back to work.
But if you want to talk about entitlement sure. I could furlough myself and live off the 80% the government would give me.
Instead I have chosen to pick up odd jobs to keep me going so that I am not a burden to an already overloaded system. Yet I am being judged by a group of people who are at home doing nothing living on handouts. So sure there is a lot of entitlement.
Short term finance for your situation is not difficult to secure, even in normal times
So are you saying I am lying?
Perhaps if you picked on this which is the point I was trying to make instead of pedantically nitpicking a situation you don't have the full details of, you would understand that the point I am making is that the Bounce Back loan that was supposed to be approved or declined within 24 hours is beyond my reach. I would go to a different bank but their are articles on the web describing that everyone is having the same issues.
I actually commented on this forum to contribute my experience toward what OP has stated. Not be put on trial by a boorish self appointed judge of my moral fibre.
Good luck OP. I wish you well."nobody said you were lying but you do frequently contradict your earlier posts to make your current point so its understandable some people might be confused you are not in contract but earlier claimed to have no issues and still be working at 9.15pm you are now in dire need of finance but earlier claimed that none of this was an issue for you you were just worried about the principal of it for others you cant see what anyone would volunteer to pay more tax than they need to then (wrongly) claim that your 51% is higher than paye would have been you see how we can get a bit mixed up on what the true story is | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"is this exact example not a bank thats decided not to pay their dividend and to use those funds for the company instead or are we talking about a different lloyds? NO IT IS ISN'T. Lloyds wanted to pay their dividend but was pressured by the Government not to because it would look bad. Lloyds knew a pandemic was here and have sufficient funds to cover that and the dividend payout but a letter from the FSA urged the banks not to pay out dividends. they have not just cancelled dividends most have stopped internal investment spending too, like projects to upgrade technology etc nobody knows how long this is going to go on for and they have to be responsible with the reserves that they have that was my point in replying to a poster who was bringing up the 2008 bailout yet again on another thread because he doesn’t seem to comprehend the differences in the capital and liquidity requirements of banks now vs 2008, because rather than being stuck 12 years ago like he appears to be, banks actually (with guidance and regulation from the fca)learned from 2008 and put measures in place to prevent it happening again OK so the final dividend for 2019 relates to profit in 2019. Declared and about to be paid. Covid-19 comes along. The governmnet use banks as vehicles to ensure money gets to businesses and individuals guaranteeing the bulk of loans. The bank is "warned" not to pay dividends that are the "reluctantly" CANCELLED. My dividend from, my investment of my money paying your furloughed 80% and rewarding me with nothing. You have a bad attitude. I am not resenting paying out the 80% but you resent my being entitled to anything. As it stands i have loaned money to the government at negative interest of around 3%, in real terms around £10,000. I have shares in Lloyds and RBS, i don't resent RBS holding back dividends but their balance sheet isn't in the same league as Lloyds at all. Shareholders are not taking the piss they are propping up business and the country and for their, trouble, pain and suffering they are accused of being the ones taking the piss. INCREDIBLE! I applied for a CBILS loans they day it was announced. So lomg ago that I can't remember when. I have folder for the countless emails saying that they are too busy please don't phone them. Since the the bounce back loan has come along and I can't get through the first page because my bank software says I am not a client of theirs. I have complained to my bank but they are looking into it. Still looking into it. At the moment I am getting by just fine on Ad Hoc work but have been out of contract since September because of IR35. CBILS and BBLS in my opinion are just another set of lies Rishi has publicized to look like a saviour when in fact all his empty words have done is wasted my time. If I was reliant on a bank loan right now I would be bankrupt. why are you applying for a loan if you don’t need to right now ? Because I have been out of contract since September and I hsve no guarantee of any oncome after each paycheck. If do get work I will pay the loan back but if I don't get work I won't go under. Are you suggesting that a person who scrapes, forages and keeps himself going through hard work and initiative shouldn't be given a loan because they aren't on the brink of starvation? Nice! But like I've said those loans are PR myths. So it's moot. Seems a strange attitude - I don’t need to borrow right now but I will because I’m entitled to and just in case I don’t get business in the future. Hmmm - I wonder how I’m going to pay back that loan ..... At which stage would you like me to apply for a loan. When I habe already declared bankruptcy. I am not in contract. Have not been since September. Effectively unemployed for over 6 months. First you say loans shouldn't be given to people who don't desperately need them, the follow it up by saying that people who desperately need loans probably can't pay them back
Why saddle yourself with a debt that, by your own admission, you don’t need.
It’s that attitude of entitlement again isn’t it - “I’ve paid in, I’m entitled to it so I bloody well will have it (whether I need it or not)!” ?
No it's because I am actually owed a large sum of money for work already completed but can't get my money out of these people because their purchasing departments are all on furlough and the people required to sign off those payments are not at work.
All I need is a loan to tide me over until these people get back to work.
But if you want to talk about entitlement sure. I could furlough myself and live off the 80% the government would give me.
Instead I have chosen to pick up odd jobs to keep me going so that I am not a burden to an already overloaded system. Yet I am being judged by a group of people who are at home doing nothing living on handouts. So sure there is a lot of entitlement.
Short term finance for your situation is not difficult to secure, even in normal times
So are you saying I am lying?
Perhaps if you picked on this which is the point I was trying to make instead of pedantically nitpicking a situation you don't have the full details of, you would understand that the point I am making is that the Bounce Back loan that was supposed to be approved or declined within 24 hours is beyond my reach. I would go to a different bank but their are articles on the web describing that everyone is having the same issues.
I actually commented on this forum to contribute my experience toward what OP has stated. Not be put on trial by a boorish self appointed judge of my moral fibre.
Good luck OP. I wish you well."Maybe the bounce back loan isn’t right for your situation - which is why you may have struggled to secure it . Your situation is immediate (or depending on how long it is before the accounts payable dept come back online) cash flow - and for that situation there are any number of options available to you . I’m sure you already know this | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"is this exact example not a bank thats decided not to pay their dividend and to use those funds for the company instead or are we talking about a different lloyds? NO IT IS ISN'T. Lloyds wanted to pay their dividend but was pressured by the Government not to because it would look bad. Lloyds knew a pandemic was here and have sufficient funds to cover that and the dividend payout but a letter from the FSA urged the banks not to pay out dividends. they have not just cancelled dividends most have stopped internal investment spending too, like projects to upgrade technology etc nobody knows how long this is going to go on for and they have to be responsible with the reserves that they have that was my point in replying to a poster who was bringing up the 2008 bailout yet again on another thread because he doesn’t seem to comprehend the differences in the capital and liquidity requirements of banks now vs 2008, because rather than being stuck 12 years ago like he appears to be, banks actually (with guidance and regulation from the fca)learned from 2008 and put measures in place to prevent it happening again OK so the final dividend for 2019 relates to profit in 2019. Declared and about to be paid. Covid-19 comes along. The governmnet use banks as vehicles to ensure money gets to businesses and individuals guaranteeing the bulk of loans. The bank is "warned" not to pay dividends that are the "reluctantly" CANCELLED. My dividend from, my investment of my money paying your furloughed 80% and rewarding me with nothing. You have a bad attitude. I am not resenting paying out the 80% but you resent my being entitled to anything. As it stands i have loaned money to the government at negative interest of around 3%, in real terms around £10,000. I have shares in Lloyds and RBS, i don't resent RBS holding back dividends but their balance sheet isn't in the same league as Lloyds at all. Shareholders are not taking the piss they are propping up business and the country and for their, trouble, pain and suffering they are accused of being the ones taking the piss. INCREDIBLE! I applied for a CBILS loans they day it was announced. So lomg ago that I can't remember when. I have folder for the countless emails saying that they are too busy please don't phone them. Since the the bounce back loan has come along and I can't get through the first page because my bank software says I am not a client of theirs. I have complained to my bank but they are looking into it. Still looking into it. At the moment I am getting by just fine on Ad Hoc work but have been out of contract since September because of IR35. CBILS and BBLS in my opinion are just another set of lies Rishi has publicized to look like a saviour when in fact all his empty words have done is wasted my time. If I was reliant on a bank loan right now I would be bankrupt. why are you applying for a loan if you don’t need to right now ? Because I have been out of contract since September and I hsve no guarantee of any oncome after each paycheck. If do get work I will pay the loan back but if I don't get work I won't go under. Are you suggesting that a person who scrapes, forages and keeps himself going through hard work and initiative shouldn't be given a loan because they aren't on the brink of starvation? Nice! But like I've said those loans are PR myths. So it's moot. Seems a strange attitude - I don’t need to borrow right now but I will because I’m entitled to and just in case I don’t get business in the future. Hmmm - I wonder how I’m going to pay back that loan ..... At which stage would you like me to apply for a loan. When I habe already declared bankruptcy. I am not in contract. Have not been since September. Effectively unemployed for over 6 months. First you say loans shouldn't be given to people who don't desperately need them, the follow it up by saying that people who desperately need loans probably can't pay them back
Why saddle yourself with a debt that, by your own admission, you don’t need.
It’s that attitude of entitlement again isn’t it - “I’ve paid in, I’m entitled to it so I bloody well will have it (whether I need it or not)!” ?
No it's because I am actually owed a large sum of money for work already completed but can't get my money out of these people because their purchasing departments are all on furlough and the people required to sign off those payments are not at work.
All I need is a loan to tide me over until these people get back to work.
But if you want to talk about entitlement sure. I could furlough myself and live off the 80% the government would give me.
Instead I have chosen to pick up odd jobs to keep me going so that I am not a burden to an already overloaded system. Yet I am being judged by a group of people who are at home doing nothing living on handouts. So sure there is a lot of entitlement.
Short term finance for your situation is not difficult to secure, even in normal times
So are you saying I am lying?
Perhaps if you picked on this which is the point I was trying to make instead of pedantically nitpicking a situation you don't have the full details of, you would understand that the point I am making is that the Bounce Back loan that was supposed to be approved or declined within 24 hours is beyond my reach. I would go to a different bank but their are articles on the web describing that everyone is having the same issues.
I actually commented on this forum to contribute my experience toward what OP has stated. Not be put on trial by a boorish self appointed judge of my moral fibre.
Good luck OP. I wish you well.
nobody said you were lying but you do frequently contradict your earlier posts to make your current point so its understandable some people might be confused
you are not in contract but earlier claimed to have no issues and still be working at 9.15pm
you are now in dire need of finance but earlier claimed that none of this was an issue for you you were just worried about the principal of it for others
you cant see what anyone would volunteer to pay more tax than they need to then (wrongly) claim that your 51% is higher than paye would have been
you see how we can get a bit mixed up on what the true story is "For clarification I am out of contract. As already stated. I am doing ad hoc work which is not guaranteed. As already stated. I may get paid for this work in which case this is a point of principle. Or I might not get paid for this work in which case I am in the same position as OP and face bankruptcy without a loan. As for future work, with the current climate I do not foresee myself finding another contract before 2021. In which case I need a bounce back loan. Should I be fortunate and secure a contract in this period I will pay back the loan in full. Right now my business is in a state of uncertainty. It is on a knife edge and things could go either way. A situation I should not be in considering the promise made to us by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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"Dear oh dear, the same old objections posted by people who aren't directors and just assume it's all about fiddling tax because they have no clue what running a limited company involves. Most small business directors aren't earning 6 figure salaries, many earn less than you! They take advice from accountants who are directed by HMRC. They pay less on their PAYE earnings but they still pay taxes and plenty of them, not forgetting the fees they pay to accountants to deal with their corporate and personal tax affairs. Running a limited company gets complicated, they have to play within very specific and sometimes complicated rules and the price for falling foul of the rules is jail! It's not a tax free walk in the park, it's hard work. The idea that a director paying themselves dividends is avoiding tax is plainly stupid. Many use dividends as a method of linking pay to performance. They pay themselves a small monthly PAYE salary and at the end of the year a dividend, based on how good or bad the year has been. Their company has already paid corporation tax on the profit it has made and from what is left they then pay themselves a dividend obviously having to pay tax on that again. As an example, my dividend, taking the last and next few months into account will be nothing. Of course on paper i will pay myself but to ensure the survival of the business i will lend that money back to the company placing it back into a director's loan account. So yes, i'll pay a lower rate of tax on my dividend but i won't see any of it because the company can't afford to pay me because it gets no help from the government to pay wages. This will turn around and maybe before long i can draw my pay out, or maybe not. That is the way being paid like this actually works, most directors DO NOT have it easy! To those who are being "looked after", when you mouth off about directors fiddling the system please keep in mind that many of those directors contribute a shit load to the treasury and yet while they are being told to fuck off, their contribution is being handed out to you! " At last someone who talks sense. My wife runs her own business. Has 2 employees who she has to pay who both if you break it down to an hourly rate earn more than her( we worked it out one day and her hourly rate is less than minimum wage) Running your own business is not a 9-5 job, she will quite often work till 2 in the morning, to ensure she meets deadlines. Dividends can only be paid if there is profit enough to pay them. If the business needs the reinvestment of that profit then there is no dividends. All those saying fuck you too ltd company directors, it’s your own fault for cheating the tax man, should try running their own company and see how they feel then | |||
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"is this exact example not a bank thats decided not to pay their dividend and to use those funds for the company instead or are we talking about a different lloyds? NO IT IS ISN'T. Lloyds wanted to pay their dividend but was pressured by the Government not to because it would look bad. Lloyds knew a pandemic was here and have sufficient funds to cover that and the dividend payout but a letter from the FSA urged the banks not to pay out dividends. they have not just cancelled dividends most have stopped internal investment spending too, like projects to upgrade technology etc nobody knows how long this is going to go on for and they have to be responsible with the reserves that they have that was my point in replying to a poster who was bringing up the 2008 bailout yet again on another thread because he doesn’t seem to comprehend the differences in the capital and liquidity requirements of banks now vs 2008, because rather than being stuck 12 years ago like he appears to be, banks actually (with guidance and regulation from the fca)learned from 2008 and put measures in place to prevent it happening again OK so the final dividend for 2019 relates to profit in 2019. Declared and about to be paid. Covid-19 comes along. The governmnet use banks as vehicles to ensure money gets to businesses and individuals guaranteeing the bulk of loans. The bank is "warned" not to pay dividends that are the "reluctantly" CANCELLED. My dividend from, my investment of my money paying your furloughed 80% and rewarding me with nothing. You have a bad attitude. I am not resenting paying out the 80% but you resent my being entitled to anything. As it stands i have loaned money to the government at negative interest of around 3%, in real terms around £10,000. I have shares in Lloyds and RBS, i don't resent RBS holding back dividends but their balance sheet isn't in the same league as Lloyds at all. Shareholders are not taking the piss they are propping up business and the country and for their, trouble, pain and suffering they are accused of being the ones taking the piss. INCREDIBLE! I applied for a CBILS loans they day it was announced. So lomg ago that I can't remember when. I have folder for the countless emails saying that they are too busy please don't phone them. Since the the bounce back loan has come along and I can't get through the first page because my bank software says I am not a client of theirs. I have complained to my bank but they are looking into it. Still looking into it. At the moment I am getting by just fine on Ad Hoc work but have been out of contract since September because of IR35. CBILS and BBLS in my opinion are just another set of lies Rishi has publicized to look like a saviour when in fact all his empty words have done is wasted my time. If I was reliant on a bank loan right now I would be bankrupt. why are you applying for a loan if you don’t need to right now ? Because I have been out of contract since September and I hsve no guarantee of any oncome after each paycheck. If do get work I will pay the loan back but if I don't get work I won't go under. Are you suggesting that a person who scrapes, forages and keeps himself going through hard work and initiative shouldn't be given a loan because they aren't on the brink of starvation? Nice! But like I've said those loans are PR myths. So it's moot. Seems a strange attitude - I don’t need to borrow right now but I will because I’m entitled to and just in case I don’t get business in the future. Hmmm - I wonder how I’m going to pay back that loan ..... At which stage would you like me to apply for a loan. When I habe already declared bankruptcy. I am not in contract. Have not been since September. Effectively unemployed for over 6 months. First you say loans shouldn't be given to people who don't desperately need them, the follow it up by saying that people who desperately need loans probably can't pay them back
Why saddle yourself with a debt that, by your own admission, you don’t need.
It’s that attitude of entitlement again isn’t it - “I’ve paid in, I’m entitled to it so I bloody well will have it (whether I need it or not)!” ?
No it's because I am actually owed a large sum of money for work already completed but can't get my money out of these people because their purchasing departments are all on furlough and the people required to sign off those payments are not at work.
All I need is a loan to tide me over until these people get back to work.
But if you want to talk about entitlement sure. I could furlough myself and live off the 80% the government would give me.
Instead I have chosen to pick up odd jobs to keep me going so that I am not a burden to an already overloaded system. Yet I am being judged by a group of people who are at home doing nothing living on handouts. So sure there is a lot of entitlement.
Short term finance for your situation is not difficult to secure, even in normal times
So are you saying I am lying?
Perhaps if you picked on this which is the point I was trying to make instead of pedantically nitpicking a situation you don't have the full details of, you would understand that the point I am making is that the Bounce Back loan that was supposed to be approved or declined within 24 hours is beyond my reach. I would go to a different bank but their are articles on the web describing that everyone is having the same issues.
I actually commented on this forum to contribute my experience toward what OP has stated. Not be put on trial by a boorish self appointed judge of my moral fibre.
Good luck OP. I wish you well.
Maybe the bounce back loan isn’t right for your situation - which is why you may have struggled to secure it .
Your situation is immediate (or depending on how long it is before the accounts payable dept come back online) cash flow - and for that situation there are any number of options available to you .
I’m sure you already know this
"I originally applied for the CBILS loan and have been waiting ages for it. My bank has not accepted or rejected it, which is why I have opted to try to change it to a bounce back loan, something my bank encourages me to do. I am not able to convert this application because of a technical difficulty. HSBC and Barclays customers are reporting the same "technical hitch". Strange that all these banks are having the same lending difficulties which have been entrusted unto them by our government. Which is the point I am trying to make rather than discuss my own personal situation. | |||
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"Every Company is the world is on a knive edge. Businesses go under all the time for various reasons So you business got taken with many others in a global pandemic.... Why should the government support your business over another one? This is not how capitalism works. You took the risks to create your business and reaped the rewards Now its failing so accept the loss" I am not asking my business to be supported above another. I am asking that ALL of us be supported because that is what our government promised to do. I am not asking for a grant, something that has been issued to self employed people took the same business risk as I did, just under a different structure. I am not asking for a bailout which the airline industry is doing although they too toom the same business risk as me. Another entity which makes good profits in the good times are banks. The same people who got bailed out in 2008 and now are slow to help other businesses in 2020. Despite the fact these losns are 100% backed by the government. | |||
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(closed, thread got too big) | |||
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"Every Company is the world is on a knive edge. Businesses go under all the time for various reasons So you business got taken with many others in a global pandemic.... Why should the government support your business over another one? This is not how capitalism works. You took the risks to create your business and reaped the rewards Now its failing so accept the loss I am not asking my business to be supported above another. I am asking that ALL of us be supported because that is what our government promised to do. I am not asking for a grant, something that has been issued to self employed people took the same business risk as I did, just under a different structure. I am not asking for a bailout which the airline industry is doing although they too toom the same business risk as me. Another entity which makes good profits in the good times are banks. The same people who got bailed out in 2008 and now are slow to help other businesses in 2020. Despite the fact these losns are 100% backed by the government. " you know these 2008 bailouts you keep going on about were either loans or buying equity stakes in the companies which were later sold off, it wasnt free cash handed out like you keep implying | |||
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"is this exact example not a bank thats decided not to pay their dividend and to use those funds for the company instead or are we talking about a different lloyds? NO IT IS ISN'T. Lloyds wanted to pay their dividend but was pressured by the Government not to because it would look bad. Lloyds knew a pandemic was here and have sufficient funds to cover that and the dividend payout but a letter from the FSA urged the banks not to pay out dividends. they have not just cancelled dividends most have stopped internal investment spending too, like projects to upgrade technology etc nobody knows how long this is going to go on for and they have to be responsible with the reserves that they have that was my point in replying to a poster who was bringing up the 2008 bailout yet again on another thread because he doesn’t seem to comprehend the differences in the capital and liquidity requirements of banks now vs 2008, because rather than being stuck 12 years ago like he appears to be, banks actually (with guidance and regulation from the fca)learned from 2008 and put measures in place to prevent it happening again OK so the final dividend for 2019 relates to profit in 2019. Declared and about to be paid. Covid-19 comes along. The governmnet use banks as vehicles to ensure money gets to businesses and individuals guaranteeing the bulk of loans. The bank is "warned" not to pay dividends that are the "reluctantly" CANCELLED. My dividend from, my investment of my money paying your furloughed 80% and rewarding me with nothing. You have a bad attitude. I am not resenting paying out the 80% but you resent my being entitled to anything. As it stands i have loaned money to the government at negative interest of around 3%, in real terms around £10,000. I have shares in Lloyds and RBS, i don't resent RBS holding back dividends but their balance sheet isn't in the same league as Lloyds at all. Shareholders are not taking the piss they are propping up business and the country and for their, trouble, pain and suffering they are accused of being the ones taking the piss. INCREDIBLE! I applied for a CBILS loans they day it was announced. So lomg ago that I can't remember when. I have folder for the countless emails saying that they are too busy please don't phone them. Since the the bounce back loan has come along and I can't get through the first page because my bank software says I am not a client of theirs. I have complained to my bank but they are looking into it. Still looking into it. At the moment I am getting by just fine on Ad Hoc work but have been out of contract since September because of IR35. CBILS and BBLS in my opinion are just another set of lies Rishi has publicized to look like a saviour when in fact all his empty words have done is wasted my time. If I was reliant on a bank loan right now I would be bankrupt. why are you applying for a loan if you don’t need to right now ? Because I have been out of contract since September and I hsve no guarantee of any oncome after each paycheck. If do get work I will pay the loan back but if I don't get work I won't go under. Are you suggesting that a person who scrapes, forages and keeps himself going through hard work and initiative shouldn't be given a loan because they aren't on the brink of starvation? Nice! But like I've said those loans are PR myths. So it's moot. Seems a strange attitude - I don’t need to borrow right now but I will because I’m entitled to and just in case I don’t get business in the future. Hmmm - I wonder how I’m going to pay back that loan ..... At which stage would you like me to apply for a loan. When I habe already declared bankruptcy. I am not in contract. Have not been since September. Effectively unemployed for over 6 months. First you say loans shouldn't be given to people who don't desperately need them, the follow it up by saying that people who desperately need loans probably can't pay them back
Why saddle yourself with a debt that, by your own admission, you don’t need.
It’s that attitude of entitlement again isn’t it - “I’ve paid in, I’m entitled to it so I bloody well will have it (whether I need it or not)!” ?
No it's because I am actually owed a large sum of money for work already completed but can't get my money out of these people because their purchasing departments are all on furlough and the people required to sign off those payments are not at work.
All I need is a loan to tide me over until these people get back to work.
But if you want to talk about entitlement sure. I could furlough myself and live off the 80% the government would give me.
Instead I have chosen to pick up odd jobs to keep me going so that I am not a burden to an already overloaded system. Yet I am being judged by a group of people who are at home doing nothing living on handouts. So sure there is a lot of entitlement.
Short term finance for your situation is not difficult to secure, even in normal times
So are you saying I am lying?
Perhaps if you picked on this which is the point I was trying to make instead of pedantically nitpicking a situation you don't have the full details of, you would understand that the point I am making is that the Bounce Back loan that was supposed to be approved or declined within 24 hours is beyond my reach. I would go to a different bank but their are articles on the web describing that everyone is having the same issues.
I actually commented on this forum to contribute my experience toward what OP has stated. Not be put on trial by a boorish self appointed judge of my moral fibre.
Good luck OP. I wish you well.
Maybe the bounce back loan isn’t right for your situation - which is why you may have struggled to secure it .
Your situation is immediate (or depending on how long it is before the accounts payable dept come back online) cash flow - and for that situation there are any number of options available to you .
I’m sure you already know this
I originally applied for the CBILS loan and have been waiting ages for it. My bank has not accepted or rejected it, which is why I have opted to try to change it to a bounce back loan, something my bank encourages me to do.
I am not able to convert this application because of a technical difficulty. HSBC and Barclays customers are reporting the same "technical hitch".
Strange that all these banks are having the same lending difficulties which have been entrusted unto them by our government. Which is the point I am trying to make rather than discuss my own personal situation. "The failing is on the part of the bank - you know Barclays are giving £100 compensation to customers who experienced a delay when applying for the Bounce Back Loan. They have admitted they failed to handle applications as quickly as promised. | |||
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