FabSwingers.com forum: Lawyer on furlough

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

So on Radio 2 yesterday there was a lawyer whining she was on 80% of minimum wage and struggling to cope. Transpired as she was self employed she paid herself the legal minimum wage ( and hence very little tax I assume) and dividends as part of her income. I’m no tax expert but this seems to be a legal means of avoiding paying more tax as opposed to those on PAYE. My point is, ( and I tried ringing in to say it ) if you use the system to pay less tax, don’t cry if the system doesn’t treat you the same as those who pay 40/50% tax on those on PAYE. It was disgusting to hear the lawyer whining when there are brave NHS staff, from doctors to cleaners going into work, risking their life to save others.

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By *uninlondon69Man
over a year ago

Tower Bridge South

That's cheered me up

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There have been a few on here, maybe not directly whinging, but certainly having a go at the system for exactly same reason. By declaring yourself as a company and yourself sole director, taking most of profit as dividends you pay less tax on that and no national insurance. Benefits (supposedly) come from National Insurance.

If you deliberately play the system to avoid paying in then no right to expect to be paid out.

If she is a lawyer I'd like to bet if she took it in wages she would be over 50k....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Funnily enough 12 years ago I had to make a decision as to whether to carry on self employed, doing just this tax avoidance scam or whether to become an employee. At the time it cost me a lot of money to go PAYE. I did the right thing though and at long last it's paid off. I would have been in big trouble if in same situation as 12 years ago.

I am sure this lawyer has no idea how humbug she is. It will not occur to them that they have abused a system and now it is coming home to roost.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

A lawyer with no savings is clearly not a very good lawyer.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There are a lot of self employed that we’re doing the same.

They have gotten away with doing it a long time now it’s come round to bite them in the ass!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Agreed!!!!

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By * and M lookingCouple
over a year ago

Worcester

Couldn’t agree more.

Proof that even those that think they are intelligent can have no common sense.

Dividends aren’t the way to go nowadays, we were advised to go PAYE by our accountants a number of years ago and so glad we did now.

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By *adetMan
over a year ago

South of Ipswich

My neighbour is the director of his own company and pays himself in dividends. Hes had to return to work to pay the bills

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By *azmar62Couple
over a year ago

Hinckley

Lawyers are good at what they do and are very intelligent? But, they’ve got very little common sense. I’m self employed and I’ve always planned for worst case scenarios, which this is one. Me and my partner are living well and have so much sex it’s lovely. X

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"A lawyer with no savings is clearly not a very good lawyer."

What a silly thing to state.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"A lawyer with no savings is clearly not a very good lawyer.

What a silly thing to state."

How so? Performance dictates their pay generally.

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By *rHotNottsMan
over a year ago

Dubai & Nottingham

It’s not just lawyers, most self employed do similar. When you factor in the corporation tax, VAT, tax on dividends, lack of pension, healthcare, sick pay and holiday , plus the risks of finding enough work to get paid every month, it’s often not much different to PAYE

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By *uttyjonnMan
over a year ago

SEA

I totally agree with this is what you get when you play the system, it's very naive for her to go public with this

Accountants do advise you to work this way

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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham

Maybe this will be a prudent time forca complete review of working practices?

Paye, self-employed, gig economy, zero hours..... Its a complete myriad of schemes and many open to abuse.

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By * and M lookingCouple
over a year ago

Worcester

"I totally agree with this is what you get when you play the system, it's very naive for her to go public with this

Accountants do advise you to work this way "

Maybe the people that use these accountants should find a better one.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There are both advantages and disadvantages of being self employed, if you run a ltd company and work as a director on minimum salary taking dividends then yes you do pay less tax, depending on income can be up to £2600 a year for the highest incomes. Disadvantages are many as well. It's not the big earner many who have never done both realise. Self employment has many pitfalls as well, no holiday pay, no sick pay if your ill, liabilities for costs debts associated with the work/business even when not working. It is the system that allows this and some see this as unfair. If the economy does go into recession and many loose there jobs or businesses the self employed will get no redundancy payments and less access immediatley to any benefits. instead they will probably end up with debts and Bill's they have to pay to close the business..

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By *rHotNottsMan
over a year ago

Dubai & Nottingham

"Lawyers are good at what they do and are very intelligent? But, they’ve got very little common sense. I’m self employed and I’ve always planned for worst case scenarios, which this is one. Me and my partner are living well and have so much sex it’s lovely. X"

I find that with a lot of highly educated - low savings and high amounts of debt. We’ve always worked on keeping enough liquidity for 6 months of bills / costs if no revenue came in. We also always live on 80% if income and save 10%, this is quite a common principle a lot of people I know follow and is taught on money courses, I did wonder if it’s where the gov got the 80% figure for furlough from

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By *rHotNottsMan
over a year ago

Dubai & Nottingham

"There are both advantages and disadvantages of being self employed, if you run a ltd company and work as a director on minimum salary taking dividends then yes you do pay less tax, depending on income can be up to £2600 a year for the highest incomes. Disadvantages are many as well. It's not the big earner many who have never done both realise. Self employment has many pitfalls as well, no holiday pay, no sick pay if your ill, liabilities for costs debts associated with the work/business even when not working. It is the system that allows this and some see this as unfair. If the economy does go into recession and many loose there jobs or businesses the self employed will get no redundancy payments and less access immediatley to any benefits. instead they will probably end up with debts and Bill's they have to pay to close the business.."

How do you work the £2600 figure ?

If a person takes a salary of just £75k , you would lose child benefit and get only min. support for you kids uni costs that alone is £12k a year loss as the Self employed don’t declare dividends on these two means tested things

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So on Radio 2 yesterday there was a lawyer whining she was on 80% of minimum wage and struggling to cope. Transpired as she was self employed she paid herself the legal minimum wage ( and hence very little tax I assume) and dividends as part of her income. I’m no tax expert but this seems to be a legal means of avoiding paying more tax as opposed to those on PAYE. My point is, ( and I tried ringing in to say it ) if you use the system to pay less tax, don’t cry if the system doesn’t treat you the same as those who pay 40/50% tax on those on PAYE. It was disgusting to hear the lawyer whining when there are brave NHS staff, from doctors to cleaners going into work, risking their life to save others. "

Every cloud as they say, legalised criminals most of them!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Every cloud as they say, legalised criminals most of them!"

When you consider that the majority of construction workers in the UK are self employed, same as many taxi and delivery drivers..its not just the big high end earners who are self.employed or small business owners but also 1000s of ordinary workers as the industries cant guarantee continuity of work especially construction...

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By *ookMan
over a year ago

london

omg People still gloating about self employed people and the divi scheme... yes we do fucking pay tax... lots of it... and pay accountant to sort it. We are not all tax dodgers and many now have no work! Hairdressers designers engineers....all stuffed. If you don’t actually understand what your saying don’t put stupid posts up.

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By *ools and the brainCouple
over a year ago

couple, us we him her.

"It’s not just lawyers, most self employed do similar. When you factor in the corporation tax, VAT, tax on dividends, lack of pension, healthcare, sick pay and holiday , plus the risks of finding enough work to get paid every month, it’s often not much different to PAYE"

Thatcher's Britain

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The problem is not being self-employed as those declaring their profits as income still get 80% of this direct from HMRC (up to £2500/month).

The ones missing out are those playing system and paying themselves through dividends to reduce tax and avoid NI on that part.

I know a "mate" (acquaintance) who takes exactly his tax allowance as "wages" so pays no tax on that... rest as dividends with lower tax and no NI. He was moaning too last week. I only had one word for him.... unlucky!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"omg People still gloating about self employed people and the divi scheme... yes we do fucking pay tax... lots of it... and pay accountant to sort it. We are not all tax dodgers and many now have no work! Hairdressers designers engineers....all stuffed. If you don’t actually understand what your saying don’t put stupid posts up."

There’s no gloating. If you pick the bones out of my thread my grouch was her whining. And it was Olympic Gold medal standard whining. Tbf anyone can play the system and have it good, I just don’t want to hear the crying when it goes the other way and someone wanting the same benefits as those who pay their tax a different way.

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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham

Furlough was designed to give people an income to at least survive on. Not fund lavish lifestyles that many have got used to.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I got your meaning. I liked your post.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Thatcher's Britain"

She’s been dead 7 years and finished in power 30!

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By *ounty durham bbw coupleCouple
over a year ago

darlington

This exact thing has caught out virtually every self employed person and people who employ themselves through their own company

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By * and M lookingCouple
over a year ago

Worcester

"This exact thing has caught out virtually every self employed person and people who employ themselves through their own company "

Sadly a lot is also down to people just living for the day.

If they do not have the sense to put a little aside then we are now seeing the result.

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By *moothdickMan
over a year ago

stoke

This doesn’t surprise me.. the loudest moaners are the greedy

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If you benefit from creative accounting you cant have it both ways. I know a few people in this situation and only 1 has acknowledged that they have played the rules and benefited for years

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral

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By *ebbie69Couple
over a year ago

milton keynes

Where hubby works some of his staff choose PAYE others choose to go the Ltd company route

The ones that do Ltd company pay themselves min wage and take rest in dividends. They actively and regularly boast how they take home more money because they can get away with paying less tax.

I know many are up front about honest self employed people but also those that choose this route not because they have to but because by their own admittance it meant they pay less tax

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By *ty31Man
over a year ago

NW London

"Where hubby works some of his staff choose PAYE others choose to go the Ltd company route

The ones that do Ltd company pay themselves min wage and take rest in dividends. They actively and regularly boast how they take home more money because they can get away with paying less tax.

I know many are up front about honest self employed people but also those that choose this route not because they have to but because by their own admittance it meant they pay less tax"

Yes, but they also have to fund their own pensions and have no holiday pay, sick pay and minimal employment rights.

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By *ebbie69Couple
over a year ago

milton keynes

"Where hubby works some of his staff choose PAYE others choose to go the Ltd company route

The ones that do Ltd company pay themselves min wage and take rest in dividends. They actively and regularly boast how they take home more money because they can get away with paying less tax.

I know many are up front about honest self employed people but also those that choose this route not because they have to but because by their own admittance it meant they pay less tax

Yes, but they also have to fund their own pensions and have no holiday pay, sick pay and minimal employment rights."

I should have also mentioned those that went down the Ltd company route also have a much higher hourly rate. I am told this is because of holidays ect.

As I say many are up front honest people but also many were actively boasting to their PAYE colleagues how much better of they are doing the same job but paying less tax

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"A lawyer with no savings is clearly not a very good lawyer.

What a silly thing to state.

How so? Performance dictates their pay generally."

It means they live to their means rather than save. It has nothing to do with their abilities as a lawyer.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Where hubby works some of his staff choose PAYE others choose to go the Ltd company route

The ones that do Ltd company pay themselves min wage and take rest in dividends. They actively and regularly boast how they take home more money because they can get away with paying less tax.

I know many are up front about honest self employed people but also those that choose this route not because they have to but because by their own admittance it meant they pay less tax

Yes, but they also have to fund their own pensions and have no holiday pay, sick pay and minimal employment rights.

I should have also mentioned those that went down the Ltd company route also have a much higher hourly rate. I am told this is because of holidays ect.

As I say many are up front honest people but also many were actively boasting to their PAYE colleagues how much better of they are doing the same job but paying less tax"

Had this with a close friend in the same line of work as me.

He is not bragging now.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I totally agree with this is what you get when you play the system, it's very naive for her to go public with this

Accountants do advise you to work this way

Maybe the people that use these accountants should find a better one.

Let's face it. I don't think Accountants factored in a pandemic, but........ maybe they should have. I mean at end of day a lot of people bluster that the government should have been ready. Accountants are supposed to be intelligent people so why weren't they ready.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I totally agree with this is what you get when you play the system, it's very naive for her to go public with this

Accountants do advise you to work this way

Maybe the people that use these accountants should find a better one.

Maybe they could sue their accountant for bad advice and planning. Good luck there with that one

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"A lawyer with no savings is clearly not a very good lawyer.

What a silly thing to state.

How so? Performance dictates their pay generally.

It means they live to their means rather than save. It has nothing to do with their abilities as a lawyer. "

I bet there will be some bargains on the high performance car lots if you can afford the cash.

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By *ebbie69Couple
over a year ago

milton keynes

"Where hubby works some of his staff choose PAYE others choose to go the Ltd company route

The ones that do Ltd company pay themselves min wage and take rest in dividends. They actively and regularly boast how they take home more money because they can get away with paying less tax.

I know many are up front about honest self employed people but also those that choose this route not because they have to but because by their own admittance it meant they pay less tax

Yes, but they also have to fund their own pensions and have no holiday pay, sick pay and minimal employment rights.

I should have also mentioned those that went down the Ltd company route also have a much higher hourly rate. I am told this is because of holidays ect.

As I say many are up front honest people but also many were actively boasting to their PAYE colleagues how much better of they are doing the same job but paying less tax

Had this with a close friend in the same line of work as me.

He is not bragging now."

Will be interesting if they revert back to PAYE when things return

Maybe the chancellor had this in his mind when setting the rules

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By *D835Man
over a year ago

London

"I totally agree with this is what you get when you play the system, it's very naive for her to go public with this

Accountants do advise you to work this way

Maybe the people that use these accountants should find a better one.

Accountants should always be ready and factor everything in.

Even if it wasn’t this virus pandemic, some other natural disaster could have affected businesses, disasters like an earthquake, flood, tsunami, hurricane etc. All of these would have affected businesses and the self employed in a similar way as this pandemic. So everything needs to be factored in.

But I also think that some of the self employed and business owners should also learn lessons from his and not just depend entirely on advice from their accountants.

I say ‘some’ because I’m aware that there are already many self employed out there (like myself) who have always made & had contingency plans in place to handle situations like this.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"A lawyer with no savings is clearly not a very good lawyer.

What a silly thing to state.

How so? Performance dictates their pay generally.

It means they live to their means rather than save. It has nothing to do with their abilities as a lawyer. "

I wouldn’t want to put my liberty or financial future in the hands of a lawyer without the foresight to be able to survive on 80% of their wages for 6 weeks, would you?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"A lawyer with no savings is clearly not a very good lawyer.

What a silly thing to state.

How so? Performance dictates their pay generally.

It means they live to their means rather than save. It has nothing to do with their abilities as a lawyer.

I wouldn’t want to put my liberty or financial future in the hands of a lawyer without the foresight to be able to survive on 80% of their wages for 6 weeks, would you?"

But it's not 80% of their income. Not that I care cos I don't care what income you have, everyone should factor in a "rainy day".

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"A lawyer with no savings is clearly not a very good lawyer.

What a silly thing to state.

How so? Performance dictates their pay generally.

It means they live to their means rather than save. It has nothing to do with their abilities as a lawyer.

I wouldn’t want to put my liberty or financial future in the hands of a lawyer without the foresight to be able to survive on 80% of their wages for 6 weeks, would you?

But it's not 80% of their income. Not that I care cos I don't care what income you have, everyone should factor in a "rainy day". "

Agree, not that I have one, I just like complaining

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"A lawyer with no savings is clearly not a very good lawyer.

What a silly thing to state.

How so? Performance dictates their pay generally.

It means they live to their means rather than save. It has nothing to do with their abilities as a lawyer.

I wouldn’t want to put my liberty or financial future in the hands of a lawyer without the foresight to be able to survive on 80% of their wages for 6 weeks, would you?

But it's not 80% of their income. Not that I care cos I don't care what income you have, everyone should factor in a "rainy day".

Agree, not that I have one, I just like complaining

My rainy day has lasted 17 months. 6 weeks my arse. Ha

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

It pays off if you prefer a decent country that isn't starved of tax, to be able to provide appropriate services that are above the absolute minimum needed. We all have responsibilities and offloading them is morally bankrupt.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It pays off if you prefer a decent country that isn't starved of tax, to be able to provide appropriate services that are above the absolute minimum needed. We all have responsibilities and offloading them is morally bankrupt. "

If I was a government minister I would be telling them to kiss my arse if they want more money. I think that is really what they are doing. I just hope they have the strength of to be strong and tell people like the lawyer on the radio, best thing you can do is do a Tebbit, and get on your bike.

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By *ookMan
over a year ago

london

Not sure if this is an option... how about all the self employed ltd companies simply go out of business... shelve companies and don’t pay any tax at all... I work for myself just me no employees... what would happen if I can’t pay my tax bill as using the money saved to live on and keep a roof over my head and pasta beans and bottled water on the table. If all self employed limited people do that that leaves an even bigger hole in the pot doesn’t it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think they actually were moving contractors onto PAYE via law to some extent, at least within large companies - be interesting to see if that goes ahead post lockdown.

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By *ookMan
over a year ago

london

wouldn’t need to pay accountant as I have done for past 20 years... and could set up a new company and start fresh. Who cares about credit rating when you work for yourself.... just saying to all the smug bastards posting about the tax dodgers( like myself) getting no help after paying year in year out ( on time) without missing a penny.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Well there you go. Entrepreneurial spirit will win through. Accountants have sold people a pup here. You take the gamble year after year and get that discount for taking it. It is time that PAYE had a bit of a day in the sun. Sorry you are struggling.

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By *eavenNhellCouple
over a year ago

carrbrook stalybridge

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By *adame 2SwordsWoman
over a year ago

Victoria, London

People will always moan, wait a few months when there is no more support. I've not paid myself in months, and I've completely fallen through the net. But I'm doing what little crumbs of work come my way until my clients re-open (crossing fingers).

Things are ok at the moment, the sun is out and its an extended, if not planned holiday, but not the same if it were winter and had been going for 12 months.

We need to start learning about the Great Depression, the lessons we can learn nationally and personally to get us through.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"People will always moan, wait a few months when there is no more support. I've not paid myself in months, and I've completely fallen through the net. But I'm doing what little crumbs of work come my way until my clients re-open (crossing fingers).

Things are ok at the moment, the sun is out and its an extended, if not planned holiday, but not the same if it were winter and had been going for 12 months.

We need to start learning about the Great Depression, the lessons we can learn nationally and personally to get us through.

I mentioned FDR fairly recently. Awesome way out of the depression and not providing people with money for nothing but for work. Not just any work, but work to benefit the region/country. Soooooo, let's build a Hoover Dam

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

While this is all true, self employment also allows people a greater deal of autonomy and flexibility

People have a choice to be self employed or an employee, you are not forced down a path

i would suggest people who chose to be self employed weighed up the risk and rewards and decided it was ultimately overall more rewarding for them , however now that the risks are catching up with the rewards, many now seem to be of the opinion that the world is unfair ... Unfortunate as it is , that is what they signed up for

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

That's a good idea OP. Let those who pay no tax have no benefit from taxes.

Perhaps those who don't pay taxes should not be allowed to attend schools, use roads, be represented by government.....etc etc?

Do you pay more tax than you have to? Do you voluntarily pay more tax than the HMRC demands of you?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

While this is all true, self employment also allows people a greater deal of autonomy and flexibility

People have a choice to be self employed or an employee, you are not forced down a path

The shortcomings suffered by self employed are not the result of market forces. They are the result of poor governance. You are asking a person to sacrifice for the greater good and simultaneously punishing the person for that sacrifice.

Expect the self employed to continue working because the government and quite evidently the non self employed don't support them when they comply with lockdown.

You cannot maintain a stance of 'we're all in this together' whilst simultaneously having an 'us and them' opinion.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Perhaps as a price for getting the support they need the current tax laws are completely revised and we all go onto PAYE. Would that sort it ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

While this is all true, self employment also allows people a greater deal of autonomy and flexibility

People have a choice to be self employed or an employee, you are not forced down a path

Expect the self employed to continue working because the government and quite evidently the non self employed don't support them when they comply with lockdown.

You cannot maintain a stance of 'we're all in this together' whilst simultaneously having an 'us and them' opinion."

I disagree, not being compensated at a rate higher than you chose to pay in is not the same as being punished

Also i think the people out still working keeping the country going would be a better description of people making a sacrifice for the greater good

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Also nobody ever said risk only comes from market force , if you thought market force was your only risk in setting up a business i would suggest that was very naive

Circumstances could change for a self employed person at any time meaning they couldn't work, you or your partner could have become critically ill and hospitalised needing long term care ... but i guess in that situation the government wouldnt give you a bigger payout for that if you paid more in so why would you bother , hindsight is a wonderful thing

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Also nobody ever said risk only comes from market force , if you thought market force was your only risk in setting up a business i would suggest that was very naive

Well you can insure yourself against catastrophic loss of income. However the insurance companies are wriggling out of it by saying that force majeur does not apply here as it is government that has shut the market down. And so the circle goes on. Ultimately we are all expecting the government to bail us out. Utlimately this will have to be paid for in higher taxes and borrowing.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

While this is all true, self employment also allows people a greater deal of autonomy and flexibility

People have a choice to be self employed or an employee, you are not forced down a path

Expect the self employed to continue working because the government and quite evidently the non self employed don't support them when they comply with lockdown.

You cannot maintain a stance of 'we're all in this together' whilst simultaneously having an 'us and them' opinion.

I disagree, not being compensated at a rate higher than you chose to pay in is not the same as being punished

Also i think the people out still working keeping the country going would be a better description of people making a sacrifice for the greater good "

Let's imagine tomorrow you need a lawyer.

You ask the lawyer how much she charges and her reply is:

"I could charge you £400 per hour but because I have chosen a less effect tax structure I'm going to charge you £600 per hour"

Fair dinkum?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Also nobody ever said risk only comes from market force , if you thought market force was your only risk in setting up a business i would suggest that was very naive

And therein lies the point, these people taking dividends instead of salary are looking for the same level of bailout when they were using a loophole to avoid the same level of paying in

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

While this is all true, self employment also allows people a greater deal of autonomy and flexibility

People have a choice to be self employed or an employee, you are not forced down a path

Expect the self employed to continue working because the government and quite evidently the non self employed don't support them when they comply with lockdown.

You cannot maintain a stance of 'we're all in this together' whilst simultaneously having an 'us and them' opinion.

I disagree, not being compensated at a rate higher than you chose to pay in is not the same as being punished

Also i think the people out still working keeping the country going would be a better description of people making a sacrifice for the greater good

Let's imagine tomorrow you need a lawyer.

You ask the lawyer how much she charges and her reply is:

"I could charge you £400 per hour but because I have chosen a less effect tax structure I'm going to charge you £600 per hour"

Fair dinkum?"

Well apart from the fact that you dont save 50% by using your “efficient tax structure” so inflating by 50% in your example is ridiculous

Other than that yeah ... exactly... fair dinkum

Of course as a consumer i also have the choice of looking for an employed lawyer charging somewhere in the middle

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

While this is all true, self employment also allows people a greater deal of autonomy and flexibility

People have a choice to be self employed or an employee, you are not forced down a path

Expect the self employed to continue working because the government and quite evidently the non self employed don't support them when they comply with lockdown.

You cannot maintain a stance of 'we're all in this together' whilst simultaneously having an 'us and them' opinion.

I disagree, not being compensated at a rate higher than you chose to pay in is not the same as being punished

Also i think the people out still working keeping the country going would be a better description of people making a sacrifice for the greater good

Let's imagine tomorrow you need a lawyer.

You ask the lawyer how much she charges and her reply is:

"I could charge you £400 per hour but because I have chosen a less effect tax structure I'm going to charge you £600 per hour"

Fair dinkum?

Well apart from the fact that you dont save 50% by using your “efficient tax structure” so inflating by 50% in your example is ridiculous

Other than that yeah ... exactly... fair dinkum

Of course as a consumer i also have the choice of looking for an employed lawyer charging somewhere in the middle "

I'm a lawyer. If you're instructing lawyers that charge £400 a hour, you're instructing someone pretty much at the top of the tree. Such lawyers are likely to be very wealthy and can therefore easily absorb the extra tax they have to pay without passing it on the clients and those that do inflate their fees by 50% will, of course, lose business to those who don't.

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By *ty31Man
over a year ago

NW London

"I think they actually were moving contractors onto PAYE via law to some extent, at least within large companies - be interesting to see if that goes ahead post lockdown."

That has already started, I think it's to do with the level of supervision and the amount of instruction required in your job role.

This was due to be extended to cover more job roles this year but due to Covid it has been suspended.

Switching people from Ltd Company to PAYE can have an extremely detrimental and unfair effect to certain people (mainly those who need to travel and provide some of their own equipment).

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

While this is all true, self employment also allows people a greater deal of autonomy and flexibility

People have a choice to be self employed or an employee, you are not forced down a path

Expect the self employed to continue working because the government and quite evidently the non self employed don't support them when they comply with lockdown.

You cannot maintain a stance of 'we're all in this together' whilst simultaneously having an 'us and them' opinion.

I disagree, not being compensated at a rate higher than you chose to pay in is not the same as being punished

Also i think the people out still working keeping the country going would be a better description of people making a sacrifice for the greater good

Let's imagine tomorrow you need a lawyer.

You ask the lawyer how much she charges and her reply is:

"I could charge you £400 per hour but because I have chosen a less effect tax structure I'm going to charge you £600 per hour"

Fair dinkum?

Well apart from the fact that you dont save 50% by using your “efficient tax structure” so inflating by 50% in your example is ridiculous

Other than that yeah ... exactly... fair dinkum

Of course as a consumer i also have the choice of looking for an employed lawyer charging somewhere in the middle "

Exactly!!!

If that lawyer chose a more expensive tax structure, that lawyer wouldn't be able to compete with those who used the most efficient structure.

Market forces leave competing entities no choice but to be as efficient as possible. This is the beauty of capitalism and why it works.

So choose. Capitalism or communism. Not a capitalistic economy with communist ideals.

In his book Rich Dad Poor Dad Robert T Kiyosaki says there is no greater crime than to pay the taxman one dime more than you need to. Jesus said give unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar. Nobody. Not EVEN the taxman expects you to choose the least efficient tax structure. The entire profession of accountancy is dedicated to this principle.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think they actually were moving contractors onto PAYE via law to some extent, at least within large companies - be interesting to see if that goes ahead post lockdown.

That has already started, I think it's to do with the level of supervision and the amount of instruction required in your job role.

This was due to be extended to cover more job roles this year but due to Covid it has been suspended.

Switching people from Ltd Company to PAYE can have an extremely detrimental and unfair effect to certain people (mainly those who need to travel and provide some of their own equipment). "

No really, if the employer doesnt provide expenses for them then you can call up hmrc and have the cost added to your tax allowance as deductible costs, thee act same way as you would make them deductible costs in your ltd company

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *ty31Man
over a year ago

NW London

"I think they actually were moving contractors onto PAYE via law to some extent, at least within large companies - be interesting to see if that goes ahead post lockdown.

That has already started, I think it's to do with the level of supervision and the amount of instruction required in your job role.

This was due to be extended to cover more job roles this year but due to Covid it has been suspended.

Switching people from Ltd Company to PAYE can have an extremely detrimental and unfair effect to certain people (mainly those who need to travel and provide some of their own equipment).

Even for fuel? I thought under PAYE it's the employers responsibility to pay travel costs which is problematic since most guys on PAYE are "employed" via Umbrella companies?

I know someone who works in the rail industry and his contractors are really concerned when the switch happens.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

While this is all true, self employment also allows people a greater deal of autonomy and flexibility

People have a choice to be self employed or an employee, you are not forced down a path

Expect the self employed to continue working because the government and quite evidently the non self employed don't support them when they comply with lockdown.

You cannot maintain a stance of 'we're all in this together' whilst simultaneously having an 'us and them' opinion.

I disagree, not being compensated at a rate higher than you chose to pay in is not the same as being punished

Also i think the people out still working keeping the country going would be a better description of people making a sacrifice for the greater good

Let's imagine tomorrow you need a lawyer.

You ask the lawyer how much she charges and her reply is:

"I could charge you £400 per hour but because I have chosen a less effect tax structure I'm going to charge you £600 per hour"

Fair dinkum?

Well apart from the fact that you dont save 50% by using your “efficient tax structure” so inflating by 50% in your example is ridiculous

Other than that yeah ... exactly... fair dinkum

Of course as a consumer i also have the choice of looking for an employed lawyer charging somewhere in the middle

Exactly!!!

If that lawyer chose a more expensive tax structure, that lawyer wouldn't be able to compete with those who used the most efficient structure.

Market forces leave competing entities no choice but to be as efficient as possible. This is the beauty of capitalism and why it works.

So choose. Capitalism or communism. Not a capitalistic economy with communist ideals.

1. An actual lawyer who has a better idea of their costs than our wild plucked out air numbers has already debunked your theory

2 So choose. Capitalism or communism. Not a capitalistic economy with communist ideals.

Could your exact point not be quoted back to self employed now looking for this handout?

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think they actually were moving contractors onto PAYE via law to some extent, at least within large companies - be interesting to see if that goes ahead post lockdown.

That has already started, I think it's to do with the level of supervision and the amount of instruction required in your job role.

This was due to be extended to cover more job roles this year but due to Covid it has been suspended.

Switching people from Ltd Company to PAYE can have an extremely detrimental and unfair effect to certain people (mainly those who need to travel and provide some of their own equipment). "

Blanket application of IR35 to those who fall outside IR35 it technically illegal and not what IR35 was intended for.

The House of Lords tore IR35 to shreds finding 29 flaws in its operation. It was found to be grossly unfair.

After this daming review the government says who gives a hoot if it's wrong we will do it anyway.

Democracy - two lions and a sheep voting over what to have for dinner.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think they actually were moving contractors onto PAYE via law to some extent, at least within large companies - be interesting to see if that goes ahead post lockdown.

That has already started, I think it's to do with the level of supervision and the amount of instruction required in your job role.

This was due to be extended to cover more job roles this year but due to Covid it has been suspended.

Switching people from Ltd Company to PAYE can have an extremely detrimental and unfair effect to certain people (mainly those who need to travel and provide some of their own equipment).

Even for fuel? I thought under PAYE it's the employers responsibility to pay travel costs which is problematic since most guys on PAYE are "employed" via Umbrella companies?

I know someone who works in the rail industry and his contractors are really concerned when the switch happens."

Not sure what the current value is but it is usually pence per mile from your base location (ie where you are deemed to work not your home so commuting not included)

Anything that an employer would be allowed to compensate you for and would be tax deductible for the company , if you are not compensated then you can submit to hmrc and have your tax code adjusted for the tax portion if the expense ... you are still out of pocket for the cost, but save the tax on it wether you are employed or self employed

It has to be an expense that is required for you to do your job , so for example my work dont pay my annual professional registration fees, but because i work in my profession I can have that expense added to my tax code, if i worked in another field i could not

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By *obka3Couple
over a year ago

bournemouth

Not read the whole thread but many are confused between page and self employed. The lawyer in question is an employee of her own company presumably as are many other so called professionals, they take low wages and pay tax and ni via paye system and take the rest as dividends which are taxed at a lower rate.

Self employed people pay tax via self assessment and at the same rate as employed people, they dont get dividends

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

While this is all true, self employment also allows people a greater deal of autonomy and flexibility

People have a choice to be self employed or an employee, you are not forced down a path

Expect the self employed to continue working because the government and quite evidently the non self employed don't support them when they comply with lockdown.

You cannot maintain a stance of 'we're all in this together' whilst simultaneously having an 'us and them' opinion.

I disagree, not being compensated at a rate higher than you chose to pay in is not the same as being punished

Also i think the people out still working keeping the country going would be a better description of people making a sacrifice for the greater good

Let's imagine tomorrow you need a lawyer.

You ask the lawyer how much she charges and her reply is:

"I could charge you £400 per hour but because I have chosen a less effect tax structure I'm going to charge you £600 per hour"

Fair dinkum?

Well apart from the fact that you dont save 50% by using your “efficient tax structure” so inflating by 50% in your example is ridiculous

Other than that yeah ... exactly... fair dinkum

Of course as a consumer i also have the choice of looking for an employed lawyer charging somewhere in the middle

Exactly!!!

If that lawyer chose a more expensive tax structure, that lawyer wouldn't be able to compete with those who used the most efficient structure.

Market forces leave competing entities no choice but to be as efficient as possible. This is the beauty of capitalism and why it works.

So choose. Capitalism or communism. Not a capitalistic economy with communist ideals.

Also i am a chartered accountant, and accountants that are just out to save you tax money are actually a very small portion of our profession

(closed, thread got too big)

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By *inkyLondonpairCouple
over a year ago

London

While this is all true, self employment also allows people a greater deal of autonomy and flexibility

People have a choice to be self employed or an employee, you are not forced down a path

Expect the self employed to continue working because the government and quite evidently the non self employed don't support them when they comply with lockdown.

You cannot maintain a stance of 'we're all in this together' whilst simultaneously having an 'us and them' opinion.

I disagree, not being compensated at a rate higher than you chose to pay in is not the same as being punished

Also i think the people out still working keeping the country going would be a better description of people making a sacrifice for the greater good

Let's imagine tomorrow you need a lawyer.

You ask the lawyer how much she charges and her reply is:

"I could charge you £400 per hour but because I have chosen a less effect tax structure I'm going to charge you £600 per hour"

Fair dinkum?

Well apart from the fact that you dont save 50% by using your “efficient tax structure” so inflating by 50% in your example is ridiculous

Other than that yeah ... exactly... fair dinkum

Of course as a consumer i also have the choice of looking for an employed lawyer charging somewhere in the middle

Exactly!!!

If that lawyer chose a more expensive tax structure, that lawyer wouldn't be able to compete with those who used the most efficient structure.

Market forces leave competing entities no choice but to be as efficient as possible. This is the beauty of capitalism and why it works.

So choose. Capitalism or communism. Not a capitalistic economy with communist ideals.

1. An actual lawyer who has a better idea of their costs than our wild plucked out air numbers has already debunked your theory

2 So choose. Capitalism or communism. Not a capitalistic economy with communist ideals.

Could your exact point not be quoted back to self employed now looking for this handout? "

Indeed. If you've chosen to be a wheeling dealing free marketing standing on your own two feet type and begrudging anything you pay it tax, it doesn't look good if then complain when disaster strikes and you expect the state to bail you out.

There's a lot of that around, people who are fervent capitalists in the good times and expect to get the benefits of socialism in the bad times.

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Not read the whole thread but many are confused between page and self employed. The lawyer in question is an employee of her own company presumably as are many other so called professionals, they take low wages and pay tax and ni via paye system and take the rest as dividends which are taxed at a lower rate.

Self employed people pay tax via self assessment and at the same rate as employed people, they dont get dividends "

It even more complex than that, lawyers will often be part of a partnership, if not with limited liability then they face many if not all of the same risks and rules as the self employed

A limited company with a sole director/ employee taking a small salary and dividends is actually a 3rd bracket where they are subject to both self assessment and paye and they play the system to make this balance as efficient as they can , a number of people in this scenario actually contract for big firms and all but on paper are effectively employees but their setup was saving both the big firm and the director money in terms of national insurance contributions (as well as tax on dividends) its specifically why the tax rules were changed particularly on dividends just a few years ago to try close the gap

(closed, thread got too big)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

While this is all true, self employment also allows people a greater deal of autonomy and flexibility

People have a choice to be self employed or an employee, you are not forced down a path

Expect the self employed to continue working because the government and quite evidently the non self employed don't support them when they comply with lockdown.

You cannot maintain a stance of 'we're all in this together' whilst simultaneously having an 'us and them' opinion.

I disagree, not being compensated at a rate higher than you chose to pay in is not the same as being punished

Also i think the people out still working keeping the country going would be a better description of people making a sacrifice for the greater good

Let's imagine tomorrow you need a lawyer.

You ask the lawyer how much she charges and her reply is:

"I could charge you £400 per hour but because I have chosen a less effect tax structure I'm going to charge you £600 per hour"

Fair dinkum?

Well apart from the fact that you dont save 50% by using your “efficient tax structure” so inflating by 50% in your example is ridiculous

Other than that yeah ... exactly... fair dinkum

Of course as a consumer i also have the choice of looking for an employed lawyer charging somewhere in the middle

Exactly!!!

If that lawyer chose a more expensive tax structure, that lawyer wouldn't be able to compete with those who used the most efficient structure.

Market forces leave competing entities no choice but to be as efficient as possible. This is the beauty of capitalism and why it works.

So choose. Capitalism or communism. Not a capitalistic economy with communist ideals.

1. An actual lawyer who has a better idea of their costs than our wild plucked out air numbers has already debunked your theory

2 So choose. Capitalism or communism. Not a capitalistic economy with communist ideals.

Could your exact point not be quoted back to self employed now looking for this handout? "

Again. These people are not asking for a handout because they took a risk on the market and lost.

These people are asking to be compensated for the fact they are not able to conduct their business because the GOVERNMENT is asking them not to do so. Does that sound like the free market to you?

As for debunking. You debunked yourself by indicating that if a lawyer priced herself out of the market by choosing a less efficient tax structure you would go elsewhere.

If Sainsbury's chose a less efficient tax structure and had to rise their prices significantly they would be out of business tomorrow. Nobody would be buying from them because they contributed more to government coffers. Take a look at Amazon, we all bitch about them not paying taxes but they are shutting down high street businesses daily. Why? Because they are cheaper. Why? Because they don't have the same overheads.

Instead of worrying about the little guy making a buck or two more, why is no one worrying about big corporations who are getting bailed out while they are profiting? It seems that to make billions dishonestly is acceptable but to make 10k more honestly is a sin.