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"England is 5 times bigger than Lombardy. Lombardy is 15 times bigger than Greater London. You can't compare England and Lombardy but you can compare London and Lombardy? Really? Do you realise that you are just drawing the line where is more convenient to support your point without any logical reason? I was comparing the two because they have similar populations, which was no less logical than your original statement. " What was my original statement? That UK has the 3rd worst death rate per population in the world? Because that is not even my statement the govern itself says so... | |||
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"England is 5 times bigger than Lombardy. Lombardy is 15 times bigger than Greater London. You can't compare England and Lombardy but you can compare London and Lombardy? Really? Do you realise that you are just drawing the line where is more convenient to support your point without any logical reason? I was comparing the two because they have similar populations, which was no less logical than your original statement. What was my original statement? That UK has the 3rd worst death rate per population in the world? Because that is not even my statement the govern itself says so..." The original statement that I responded to where you were using incorrect figures to support your argument and yet complaining about others distorting facts. | |||
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"England is 5 times bigger than Lombardy. Lombardy is 15 times bigger than Greater London. You can't compare England and Lombardy but you can compare London and Lombardy? Really? Do you realise that you are just drawing the line where is more convenient to support your point without any logical reason? Think it's good to bear in mind that 478,000 people died of Malaria last year, we all being conditioned into doing as we're told. Taste of the future? I hope not I was comparing the two because they have similar populations, which was no less logical than your original statement. " | |||
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"England is 5 times bigger than Lombardy. Lombardy is 15 times bigger than Greater London. You can't compare England and Lombardy but you can compare London and Lombardy? Really? Do you realise that you are just drawing the line where is more convenient to support your point without any logical reason? Think it's good to bear in mind that 478,000 people died of Malaria last year, we all being conditioned into doing as we're told. Taste of the future? I hope not I was comparing the two because they have similar populations, which was no less logical than your original statement. " Sorry didn't mean to put that right in middle of your statement | |||
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"England is 5 times bigger than Lombardy. Lombardy is 15 times bigger than Greater London. You can't compare England and Lombardy but you can compare London and Lombardy? Really? Do you realise that you are just drawing the line where is more convenient to support your point without any logical reason? I was comparing the two because they have similar populations, which was no less logical than your original statement. What was my original statement? That UK has the 3rd worst death rate per population in the world? Because that is not even my statement the govern itself says so... The original statement that I responded to where you were using incorrect figures to support your argument and yet complaining about others distorting facts." I wrote Italy instead of Lombardy, I didn't use any incorrect figure. A mistake doesn't change the reality. The population density in Italy is 25% smaller than UK, there is no evidence that this would have any positive effect at all. Or that this is enough to nullify the effect of the older population in Italy. The fact is that UK went in lockdown 1 month after Italy started to lockdown cities. They didn't even look for coronavirus until 7th of march. UK death toll is one of the worse and could've been one of the best of they entered lockdown earlier or started testing earlier. Then you can apply gerrymandering to covid19 deaths and make them look better, but this doesn't change the result. | |||
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"England is 5 times bigger than Lombardy. Lombardy is 15 times bigger than Greater London. You can't compare England and Lombardy but you can compare London and Lombardy? Really? Do you realise that you are just drawing the line where is more convenient to support your point without any logical reason? I was comparing the two because they have similar populations, which was no less logical than your original statement. What was my original statement? That UK has the 3rd worst death rate per population in the world? Because that is not even my statement the govern itself says so... The original statement that I responded to where you were using incorrect figures to support your argument and yet complaining about others distorting facts. I wrote Italy instead of Lombardy, I didn't use any incorrect figure. A mistake doesn't change the reality. The population density in Italy is 25% smaller than UK, there is no evidence that this would have any positive effect at all. Or that this is enough to nullify the effect of the older population in Italy. The fact is that UK went in lockdown 1 month after Italy started to lockdown cities. They didn't even look for coronavirus until 7th of march. UK death toll is one of the worse and could've been one of the best of they entered lockdown earlier or started testing earlier. Then you can apply gerrymandering to covid19 deaths and make them look better, but this doesn't change the result. " Ok, so you when I call you out you say you used Italy instead of Lombardy and then try to compare it with the England but you then accuse me of drawing lines to suit myself! I compared Lombardy to Greater London as they have similar populations and are each the epicentre of the pandemic in their respective countries. The UK went into lockdown 15 days after Italy during which time the mayor of London had closed 40 underground stations and reduced the number of actual trains running, with the end result that trains were even more crowded than usual. And you try to argue that density doesn’t matter? Italy’s lockdown was much stricter than the UK’s and yet even now we have people complaining about the loss of our civil liberties. During the first week of our lockdown the news were full of stories of large numbers of people disregarding it. As I said earlier, I can imagine the response had the government tried to impose lockdown even a week earlier when the death figure stood at 21 | |||
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"Nothing to see here, move along now. Tories doing a great job, Boris this, Boris that, new baby, Captain Tom, blah blah blah. Front line staff without PPE? A minor detail. " frontline staff without ppe is actually something most countries are having issues with.. not just us. | |||
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"England is 5 times bigger than Lombardy. Lombardy is 15 times bigger than Greater London. You can't compare England and Lombardy but you can compare London and Lombardy? Really? Do you realise that you are just drawing the line where is more convenient to support your point without any logical reason? I was comparing the two because they have similar populations, which was no less logical than your original statement. What was my original statement? That UK has the 3rd worst death rate per population in the world? Because that is not even my statement the govern itself says so... The original statement that I responded to where you were using incorrect figures to support your argument and yet complaining about others distorting facts. I wrote Italy instead of Lombardy, I didn't use any incorrect figure. A mistake doesn't change the reality. The population density in Italy is 25% smaller than UK, there is no evidence that this would have any positive effect at all. Or that this is enough to nullify the effect of the older population in Italy. The fact is that UK went in lockdown 1 month after Italy started to lockdown cities. They didn't even look for coronavirus until 7th of march. UK death toll is one of the worse and could've been one of the best of they entered lockdown earlier or started testing earlier. Then you can apply gerrymandering to covid19 deaths and make them look better, but this doesn't change the result. Ok, so you when I call you out you say you used Italy instead of Lombardy and then try to compare it with the England but you then accuse me of drawing lines to suit myself! I compared Lombardy to Greater London as they have similar populations and are each the epicentre of the pandemic in their respective countries. The UK went into lockdown 15 days after Italy during which time the mayor of London had closed 40 underground stations and reduced the number of actual trains running, with the end result that trains were even more crowded than usual. And you try to argue that density doesn’t matter? Italy’s lockdown was much stricter than the UK’s and yet even now we have people complaining about the loss of our civil liberties. During the first week of our lockdown the news were full of stories of large numbers of people disregarding it. As I said earlier, I can imagine the response had the government tried to impose lockdown even a week earlier when the death figure stood at 21" We don't even know how many people died in London how can you compare it to Lombardy them? Italy started lockdown-like measures in late February, UK didn't do anything for 1 month. They didn't even start testing until 7th of March! Anyway if the reality around you doesn't convince you, for sure, I can't convince you. | |||
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"Let's face it guys .your government made a right balls of it ...liverpool v madrid Cheltenham .pop concerts people walking through airports without any restrictions . When ever other country in Europe was on lockdown .. Britain does it better " You can't say things like that!!!! | |||
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"It's the truth ." People don't want the truth.. | |||
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"England is 5 times bigger than Lombardy. Lombardy is 15 times bigger than Greater London. You can't compare England and Lombardy but you can compare London and Lombardy? Really? Do you realise that you are just drawing the line where is more convenient to support your point without any logical reason? I was comparing the two because they have similar populations, which was no less logical than your original statement. What was my original statement? That UK has the 3rd worst death rate per population in the world? Because that is not even my statement the govern itself says so... The original statement that I responded to where you were using incorrect figures to support your argument and yet complaining about others distorting facts. I wrote Italy instead of Lombardy, I didn't use any incorrect figure. A mistake doesn't change the reality. The population density in Italy is 25% smaller than UK, there is no evidence that this would have any positive effect at all. Or that this is enough to nullify the effect of the older population in Italy. The fact is that UK went in lockdown 1 month after Italy started to lockdown cities. They didn't even look for coronavirus until 7th of march. UK death toll is one of the worse and could've been one of the best of they entered lockdown earlier or started testing earlier. Then you can apply gerrymandering to covid19 deaths and make them look better, but this doesn't change the result. Ok, so you when I call you out you say you used Italy instead of Lombardy and then try to compare it with the England but you then accuse me of drawing lines to suit myself! I compared Lombardy to Greater London as they have similar populations and are each the epicentre of the pandemic in their respective countries. The UK went into lockdown 15 days after Italy during which time the mayor of London had closed 40 underground stations and reduced the number of actual trains running, with the end result that trains were even more crowded than usual. And you try to argue that density doesn’t matter? Italy’s lockdown was much stricter than the UK’s and yet even now we have people complaining about the loss of our civil liberties. During the first week of our lockdown the news were full of stories of large numbers of people disregarding it. As I said earlier, I can imagine the response had the government tried to impose lockdown even a week earlier when the death figure stood at 21 We don't even know how many people died in London how can you compare it to Lombardy them? Italy started lockdown-like measures in late February, UK didn't do anything for 1 month. They didn't even start testing until 7th of March! Anyway if the reality around you doesn't convince you, for sure, I can't convince you." I think it’s safe to say it’s less than Lombardy’s! You were the one to first mention and compare Lombardy. A couple of Italian towns in the Lombardy region went into lockdown towards the end of February but Italy didn’t go into full lockdown until 9th March when the UK deaths figure was 5. I stand by my earlier comment about how the UK public would have responded to the government attempting to impose lockdown at that point. It’s easy to be an expert in retrospect! As for as the reality around me, I’m well aware of the reality. You appear to be the one who dismisses the reality of what effect population density will have on transmission of the virus. | |||
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"You should get Donald Trump to sort you guys out " Sarcasm?? | |||
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"England is 5 times bigger than Lombardy. Lombardy is 15 times bigger than Greater London. You can't compare England and Lombardy but you can compare London and Lombardy? Really? Do you realise that you are just drawing the line where is more convenient to support your point without any logical reason? I was comparing the two because they have similar populations, which was no less logical than your original statement. What was my original statement? That UK has the 3rd worst death rate per population in the world? Because that is not even my statement the govern itself says so... The original statement that I responded to where you were using incorrect figures to support your argument and yet complaining about others distorting facts. I wrote Italy instead of Lombardy, I didn't use any incorrect figure. A mistake doesn't change the reality. The population density in Italy is 25% smaller than UK, there is no evidence that this would have any positive effect at all. Or that this is enough to nullify the effect of the older population in Italy. The fact is that UK went in lockdown 1 month after Italy started to lockdown cities. They didn't even look for coronavirus until 7th of march. UK death toll is one of the worse and could've been one of the best of they entered lockdown earlier or started testing earlier. Then you can apply gerrymandering to covid19 deaths and make them look better, but this doesn't change the result. Ok, so you when I call you out you say you used Italy instead of Lombardy and then try to compare it with the England but you then accuse me of drawing lines to suit myself! I compared Lombardy to Greater London as they have similar populations and are each the epicentre of the pandemic in their respective countries. The UK went into lockdown 15 days after Italy during which time the mayor of London had closed 40 underground stations and reduced the number of actual trains running, with the end result that trains were even more crowded than usual. And you try to argue that density doesn’t matter? Italy’s lockdown was much stricter than the UK’s and yet even now we have people complaining about the loss of our civil liberties. During the first week of our lockdown the news were full of stories of large numbers of people disregarding it. As I said earlier, I can imagine the response had the government tried to impose lockdown even a week earlier when the death figure stood at 21 We don't even know how many people died in London how can you compare it to Lombardy them? Italy started lockdown-like measures in late February, UK didn't do anything for 1 month. They didn't even start testing until 7th of March! Anyway if the reality around you doesn't convince you, for sure, I can't convince you. I think it’s safe to say it’s less than Lombardy’s! You were the one to first mention and compare Lombardy. A couple of Italian towns in the Lombardy region went into lockdown towards the end of February but Italy didn’t go into full lockdown until 9th March when the UK deaths figure was 5. I stand by my earlier comment about how the UK public would have responded to the government attempting to impose lockdown at that point. It’s easy to be an expert in retrospect! As for as the reality around me, I’m well aware of the reality. You appear to be the one who dismisses the reality of what effect population density will have on transmission of the virus." I always compared Italy and UK, someone said that you should compare England and Italy. I just wanted to point out that is always possible to changes the boundaries and rules to get the results that you want. Italy and UK population density is not significantly different. Neither is the population. Except for the fact that Italians are older. The only reason why UK had a small number of deaths at the beginning is that they were not testing anyone. The jump we had yesterday is due to the fact the UK started to catch up on counting deaths. If you look to death excess data in different countries compared you can see that this countries is still not counting a lot of deaths compared to other countries. I'm not being an 'expert in retrospect' as I'm saying this things since early March (not on this site as I only started using it due to lockdown boredom). I'm not an expert at all nor I'm smarter than anyone else, I just look at facts without prejudice, without thinking that UK is the best of the best not matter what. | |||
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"Let's face it guys .your government made a right balls of it ...liverpool v madrid Cheltenham .pop concerts people walking through airports without any restrictions . When ever other country in Europe was on lockdown .. Britain does it better " OK so how should it have been done? Bearing in mind there is no vaccine,no way of curing the infection presently and no way that entire countries can be completely locked dowwn to stop the spread | |||
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"England is 5 times bigger than Lombardy. Lombardy is 15 times bigger than Greater London. You can't compare England and Lombardy but you can compare London and Lombardy? Really? Do you realise that you are just drawing the line where is more convenient to support your point without any logical reason? I was comparing the two because they have similar populations, which was no less logical than your original statement. What was my original statement? That UK has the 3rd worst death rate per population in the world? Because that is not even my statement the govern itself says so... The original statement that I responded to where you were using incorrect figures to support your argument and yet complaining about others distorting facts. I wrote Italy instead of Lombardy, I didn't use any incorrect figure. A mistake doesn't change the reality. The population density in Italy is 25% smaller than UK, there is no evidence that this would have any positive effect at all. Or that this is enough to nullify the effect of the older population in Italy. The fact is that UK went in lockdown 1 month after Italy started to lockdown cities. They didn't even look for coronavirus until 7th of march. UK death toll is one of the worse and could've been one of the best of they entered lockdown earlier or started testing earlier. Then you can apply gerrymandering to covid19 deaths and make them look better, but this doesn't change the result. Ok, so you when I call you out you say you used Italy instead of Lombardy and then try to compare it with the England but you then accuse me of drawing lines to suit myself! I compared Lombardy to Greater London as they have similar populations and are each the epicentre of the pandemic in their respective countries. The UK went into lockdown 15 days after Italy during which time the mayor of London had closed 40 underground stations and reduced the number of actual trains running, with the end result that trains were even more crowded than usual. And you try to argue that density doesn’t matter? Italy’s lockdown was much stricter than the UK’s and yet even now we have people complaining about the loss of our civil liberties. During the first week of our lockdown the news were full of stories of large numbers of people disregarding it. As I said earlier, I can imagine the response had the government tried to impose lockdown even a week earlier when the death figure stood at 21 We don't even know how many people died in London how can you compare it to Lombardy them? Italy started lockdown-like measures in late February, UK didn't do anything for 1 month. They didn't even start testing until 7th of March! Anyway if the reality around you doesn't convince you, for sure, I can't convince you. I think it’s safe to say it’s less than Lombardy’s! You were the one to first mention and compare Lombardy. A couple of Italian towns in the Lombardy region went into lockdown towards the end of February but Italy didn’t go into full lockdown until 9th March when the UK deaths figure was 5. I stand by my earlier comment about how the UK public would have responded to the government attempting to impose lockdown at that point. It’s easy to be an expert in retrospect! As for as the reality around me, I’m well aware of the reality. You appear to be the one who dismisses the reality of what effect population density will have on transmission of the virus. I always compared Italy and UK, someone said that you should compare England and Italy. I just wanted to point out that is always possible to changes the boundaries and rules to get the results that you want. Italy and UK population density is not significantly different. Neither is the population. Except for the fact that Italians are older. The only reason why UK had a small number of deaths at the beginning is that they were not testing anyone. The jump we had yesterday is due to the fact the UK started to catch up on counting deaths. If you look to death excess data in different countries compared you can see that this countries is still not counting a lot of deaths compared to other countries. I'm not being an 'expert in retrospect' as I'm saying this things since early March (not on this site as I only started using it due to lockdown boredom). I'm not an expert at all nor I'm smarter than anyone else, I just look at facts without prejudice, without thinking that UK is the best of the best not matter what." Have a look at this. https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/04/16/tracking-covid-19-excess-deaths-across-countries This was published the day before the UK revised its figures. The UK amended figure would now be similar of that of France. Now compare that to Lombardy! | |||
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"England is 5 times bigger than Lombardy. Lombardy is 15 times bigger than Greater London. You can't compare England and Lombardy but you can compare London and Lombardy? Really? Do you realise that you are just drawing the line where is more convenient to support your point without any logical reason? I was comparing the two because they have similar populations, which was no less logical than your original statement. What was my original statement? That UK has the 3rd worst death rate per population in the world? Because that is not even my statement the govern itself says so... The original statement that I responded to where you were using incorrect figures to support your argument and yet complaining about others distorting facts. I wrote Italy instead of Lombardy, I didn't use any incorrect figure. A mistake doesn't change the reality. The population density in Italy is 25% smaller than UK, there is no evidence that this would have any positive effect at all. Or that this is enough to nullify the effect of the older population in Italy. The fact is that UK went in lockdown 1 month after Italy started to lockdown cities. They didn't even look for coronavirus until 7th of march. UK death toll is one of the worse and could've been one of the best of they entered lockdown earlier or started testing earlier. Then you can apply gerrymandering to covid19 deaths and make them look better, but this doesn't change the result. Ok, so you when I call you out you say you used Italy instead of Lombardy and then try to compare it with the England but you then accuse me of drawing lines to suit myself! I compared Lombardy to Greater London as they have similar populations and are each the epicentre of the pandemic in their respective countries. The UK went into lockdown 15 days after Italy during which time the mayor of London had closed 40 underground stations and reduced the number of actual trains running, with the end result that trains were even more crowded than usual. And you try to argue that density doesn’t matter? Italy’s lockdown was much stricter than the UK’s and yet even now we have people complaining about the loss of our civil liberties. During the first week of our lockdown the news were full of stories of large numbers of people disregarding it. As I said earlier, I can imagine the response had the government tried to impose lockdown even a week earlier when the death figure stood at 21 We don't even know how many people died in London how can you compare it to Lombardy them? Italy started lockdown-like measures in late February, UK didn't do anything for 1 month. They didn't even start testing until 7th of March! Anyway if the reality around you doesn't convince you, for sure, I can't convince you. I think it’s safe to say it’s less than Lombardy’s! You were the one to first mention and compare Lombardy. A couple of Italian towns in the Lombardy region went into lockdown towards the end of February but Italy didn’t go into full lockdown until 9th March when the UK deaths figure was 5. I stand by my earlier comment about how the UK public would have responded to the government attempting to impose lockdown at that point. It’s easy to be an expert in retrospect! As for as the reality around me, I’m well aware of the reality. You appear to be the one who dismisses the reality of what effect population density will have on transmission of the virus. I always compared Italy and UK, someone said that you should compare England and Italy. I just wanted to point out that is always possible to changes the boundaries and rules to get the results that you want. Italy and UK population density is not significantly different. Neither is the population. Except for the fact that Italians are older. The only reason why UK had a small number of deaths at the beginning is that they were not testing anyone. The jump we had yesterday is due to the fact the UK started to catch up on counting deaths. If you look to death excess data in different countries compared you can see that this countries is still not counting a lot of deaths compared to other countries. I'm not being an 'expert in retrospect' as I'm saying this things since early March (not on this site as I only started using it due to lockdown boredom). I'm not an expert at all nor I'm smarter than anyone else, I just look at facts without prejudice, without thinking that UK is the best of the best not matter what. Have a look at this. https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/04/16/tracking-covid-19-excess-deaths-across-countries This was published the day before the UK revised its figures. The UK amended figure would now be similar of that of France. Now compare that to Lombardy!" Economist data for Lombardy is based on data from selected towns that does not constitute a statistical sample (FT does the same but they state it clearly) and is few weeks older than other countries. (Anyway didn't you just say that you can't compare Lombardy and England?  )
The most accurate figures are those on EuroMOMO (they use a different source). They unfortunately don't publish absolute numbers, just the z-score, but that will give you an idea. | |||
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"England is 5 times bigger than Lombardy. Lombardy is 15 times bigger than Greater London. You can't compare England and Lombardy but you can compare London and Lombardy? Really? Do you realise that you are just drawing the line where is more convenient to support your point without any logical reason? I was comparing the two because they have similar populations, which was no less logical than your original statement. What was my original statement? That UK has the 3rd worst death rate per population in the world? Because that is not even my statement the govern itself says so... The original statement that I responded to where you were using incorrect figures to support your argument and yet complaining about others distorting facts. I wrote Italy instead of Lombardy, I didn't use any incorrect figure. A mistake doesn't change the reality. The population density in Italy is 25% smaller than UK, there is no evidence that this would have any positive effect at all. Or that this is enough to nullify the effect of the older population in Italy. The fact is that UK went in lockdown 1 month after Italy started to lockdown cities. They didn't even look for coronavirus until 7th of march. UK death toll is one of the worse and could've been one of the best of they entered lockdown earlier or started testing earlier. Then you can apply gerrymandering to covid19 deaths and make them look better, but this doesn't change the result. Ok, so you when I call you out you say you used Italy instead of Lombardy and then try to compare it with the England but you then accuse me of drawing lines to suit myself! I compared Lombardy to Greater London as they have similar populations and are each the epicentre of the pandemic in their respective countries. The UK went into lockdown 15 days after Italy during which time the mayor of London had closed 40 underground stations and reduced the number of actual trains running, with the end result that trains were even more crowded than usual. And you try to argue that density doesn’t matter? Italy’s lockdown was much stricter than the UK’s and yet even now we have people complaining about the loss of our civil liberties. During the first week of our lockdown the news were full of stories of large numbers of people disregarding it. As I said earlier, I can imagine the response had the government tried to impose lockdown even a week earlier when the death figure stood at 21 We don't even know how many people died in London how can you compare it to Lombardy them? Italy started lockdown-like measures in late February, UK didn't do anything for 1 month. They didn't even start testing until 7th of March! Anyway if the reality around you doesn't convince you, for sure, I can't convince you. I think it’s safe to say it’s less than Lombardy’s! You were the one to first mention and compare Lombardy. A couple of Italian towns in the Lombardy region went into lockdown towards the end of February but Italy didn’t go into full lockdown until 9th March when the UK deaths figure was 5. I stand by my earlier comment about how the UK public would have responded to the government attempting to impose lockdown at that point. It’s easy to be an expert in retrospect! As for as the reality around me, I’m well aware of the reality. You appear to be the one who dismisses the reality of what effect population density will have on transmission of the virus. I always compared Italy and UK, someone said that you should compare England and Italy. I just wanted to point out that is always possible to changes the boundaries and rules to get the results that you want. Italy and UK population density is not significantly different. Neither is the population. Except for the fact that Italians are older. The only reason why UK had a small number of deaths at the beginning is that they were not testing anyone. The jump we had yesterday is due to the fact the UK started to catch up on counting deaths. If you look to death excess data in different countries compared you can see that this countries is still not counting a lot of deaths compared to other countries. I'm not being an 'expert in retrospect' as I'm saying this things since early March (not on this site as I only started using it due to lockdown boredom). I'm not an expert at all nor I'm smarter than anyone else, I just look at facts without prejudice, without thinking that UK is the best of the best not matter what. Have a look at this. https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/04/16/tracking-covid-19-excess-deaths-across-countries This was published the day before the UK revised its figures. The UK amended figure would now be similar of that of France. Now compare that to Lombardy! Economist data for Lombardy is based on data from selected towns that does not constitute a statistical sample (FT does the same but they state it clearly) and is few weeks older than other countries. (Anyway didn't you just say that you can't compare Lombardy and England? )
The most accurate figures are those on EuroMOMO (they use a different source). They unfortunately don't publish absolute numbers, just the z-score, but that will give you an idea."If you’d actually read the article, you would have seen this “We cannot compare EuroMOMO’s reports directly to official covid-19 tolls, because the organisation does not publish absolute numbers of deaths for each country. Instead, we have gathered data separately from statistical bureaus around the world (see table below). Some Western nations began releasing regular updates in early April, as we first reported at the time. A few—such as Italy and the Netherlands—show an excess of deaths that is double the official covid-19 tally for the same period.” So in one breath you state “The jump we had yesterday is due to the fact the UK started to catch up on counting deaths. If you look to death excess data in different countries compared you can see that this countries is still not counting a lot of deaths compared to other countries.” yet when I show you evidence that the UK figures are far more accurate than Lombardy’s you just dismiss it out of hand. Now who’s drawing lines to suit their argument? | |||
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"England is 5 times bigger than Lombardy. Lombardy is 15 times bigger than Greater London. You can't compare England and Lombardy but you can compare London and Lombardy? Really? Do you realise that you are just drawing the line where is more convenient to support your point without any logical reason? I was comparing the two because they have similar populations, which was no less logical than your original statement. What was my original statement? That UK has the 3rd worst death rate per population in the world? Because that is not even my statement the govern itself says so... The original statement that I responded to where you were using incorrect figures to support your argument and yet complaining about others distorting facts. I wrote Italy instead of Lombardy, I didn't use any incorrect figure. A mistake doesn't change the reality. The population density in Italy is 25% smaller than UK, there is no evidence that this would have any positive effect at all. Or that this is enough to nullify the effect of the older population in Italy. The fact is that UK went in lockdown 1 month after Italy started to lockdown cities. They didn't even look for coronavirus until 7th of march. UK death toll is one of the worse and could've been one of the best of they entered lockdown earlier or started testing earlier. Then you can apply gerrymandering to covid19 deaths and make them look better, but this doesn't change the result. Ok, so you when I call you out you say you used Italy instead of Lombardy and then try to compare it with the England but you then accuse me of drawing lines to suit myself! I compared Lombardy to Greater London as they have similar populations and are each the epicentre of the pandemic in their respective countries. The UK went into lockdown 15 days after Italy during which time the mayor of London had closed 40 underground stations and reduced the number of actual trains running, with the end result that trains were even more crowded than usual. And you try to argue that density doesn’t matter? Italy’s lockdown was much stricter than the UK’s and yet even now we have people complaining about the loss of our civil liberties. During the first week of our lockdown the news were full of stories of large numbers of people disregarding it. As I said earlier, I can imagine the response had the government tried to impose lockdown even a week earlier when the death figure stood at 21 We don't even know how many people died in London how can you compare it to Lombardy them? Italy started lockdown-like measures in late February, UK didn't do anything for 1 month. They didn't even start testing until 7th of March! Anyway if the reality around you doesn't convince you, for sure, I can't convince you. I think it’s safe to say it’s less than Lombardy’s! You were the one to first mention and compare Lombardy. A couple of Italian towns in the Lombardy region went into lockdown towards the end of February but Italy didn’t go into full lockdown until 9th March when the UK deaths figure was 5. I stand by my earlier comment about how the UK public would have responded to the government attempting to impose lockdown at that point. It’s easy to be an expert in retrospect! As for as the reality around me, I’m well aware of the reality. You appear to be the one who dismisses the reality of what effect population density will have on transmission of the virus. I always compared Italy and UK, someone said that you should compare England and Italy. I just wanted to point out that is always possible to changes the boundaries and rules to get the results that you want. Italy and UK population density is not significantly different. Neither is the population. Except for the fact that Italians are older. The only reason why UK had a small number of deaths at the beginning is that they were not testing anyone. The jump we had yesterday is due to the fact the UK started to catch up on counting deaths. If you look to death excess data in different countries compared you can see that this countries is still not counting a lot of deaths compared to other countries. I'm not being an 'expert in retrospect' as I'm saying this things since early March (not on this site as I only started using it due to lockdown boredom). I'm not an expert at all nor I'm smarter than anyone else, I just look at facts without prejudice, without thinking that UK is the best of the best not matter what. Have a look at this. https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/04/16/tracking-covid-19-excess-deaths-across-countries This was published the day before the UK revised its figures. The UK amended figure would now be similar of that of France. Now compare that to Lombardy! Economist data for Lombardy is based on data from selected towns that does not constitute a statistical sample (FT does the same but they state it clearly) and is few weeks older than other countries. (Anyway didn't you just say that you can't compare Lombardy and England? )
The most accurate figures are those on EuroMOMO (they use a different source). They unfortunately don't publish absolute numbers, just the z-score, but that will give you an idea.
If you’d actually read the article, you would have seen this
“We cannot compare EuroMOMO’s reports directly to official covid-19 tolls, because the organisation does not publish absolute numbers of deaths for each country. Instead, we have gathered data separately from statistical bureaus around the world (see table below). Some Western nations began releasing regular updates in early April, as we first reported at the time. A few—such as Italy and the Netherlands—show an excess of deaths that is double the official covid-19 tally for the same period.”
So in one breath you state “The jump we had yesterday is due to the fact the UK started to catch up on counting deaths. If you look to death excess data in different countries compared you can see that this countries is still not counting a lot of deaths compared to other countries.” yet when I show you evidence that the UK figures are far more accurate than Lombardy’s you just dismiss it out of hand.
Now who’s drawing lines to suit their argument?
"I suggest you to re-read what I wrote. The data that the Economist is using for Italy is incorrect as the Italian statistics bureau is not the one giving the Covid19 deaths statistics. They have some data but they say that it is not a valid statistical sample. FT use the same dataset and point this out clearly. EuroMOMO has the correct data and the z-score is more than enough to asses the accuracy of death reports. This is not my opinion this is math. | |||
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"And then not counting the people who passed away in nursing homes with covid 19 . .who were they trying to fool .there is no doubt uk will be the biggest death rate in Europe .. " How can you be sure how other countries are recording numbers? Deaths and cases? We might include anyone with covid in their system at the tone of death whether it’s the case or not. Germany, for instance, are doing anything and everything not to record a death as covid. Who knows? It’s not over by a long shot and you can’t really say at this point what it will look like in a month or so. | |||
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"The economist explains how it differs from the EuroMomo. So you accept FRance’s figures, the UK’s revised figures but not the figures for Lombardy because it blows a hole in your argument! " I known how those figures are collected (and you would too if you spent some time informing yourself). That is why I say that Lombardy figures are incorrect. In all countries the national statistics agency collect daily deaths, in Italy this is not the case. They have a separate agency for this: SISMG. This one feeds EuroMOMO. Both the Economist and FT use the incorrect source (but at least FT is aware of this). This also explains why FT and the Economist give a completely different picture of Italy: the data they use is not a statistical sample, the way that was used to select it introduces a strong bias. | |||
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"The economist explains how it differs from the EuroMomo. So you accept FRance’s figures, the UK’s revised figures but not the figures for Lombardy because it blows a hole in your argument! I known how those figures are collected (and you would too if you spent some time informing yourself). That is why I say that Lombardy figures are incorrect. In all countries the national statistics agency collect daily deaths, in Italy this is not the case. They have a separate agency for this: SISMG. This one feeds EuroMOMO. Both the Economist and FT use the incorrect source (but at least FT is aware of this). This also explains why FT and the Economist give a completely different picture of Italy: the data they use is not a statistical sample, the way that was used to select it introduces a strong bias." Please don’t assume what I do and don’t know! OK, in terms of actual numbers, please give me Italy’s total excess deaths and total deaths related to Covid-19. | |||
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"The economist explains how it differs from the EuroMomo. So you accept FRance’s figures, the UK’s revised figures but not the figures for Lombardy because it blows a hole in your argument! I known how those figures are collected (and you would too if you spent some time informing yourself). That is why I say that Lombardy figures are incorrect. In all countries the national statistics agency collect daily deaths, in Italy this is not the case. They have a separate agency for this: SISMG. This one feeds EuroMOMO. Both the Economist and FT use the incorrect source (but at least FT is aware of this). This also explains why FT and the Economist give a completely different picture of Italy: the data they use is not a statistical sample, the way that was used to select it introduces a strong bias. Please don’t assume what I do and don’t know! OK, in terms of actual numbers, please give me Italy’s total excess deaths and total deaths related to Covid-19." For sure I know you can't read. | |||
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"The economist explains how it differs from the EuroMomo. So you accept FRance’s figures, the UK’s revised figures but not the figures for Lombardy because it blows a hole in your argument! I known how those figures are collected (and you would too if you spent some time informing yourself). That is why I say that Lombardy figures are incorrect. In all countries the national statistics agency collect daily deaths, in Italy this is not the case. They have a separate agency for this: SISMG. This one feeds EuroMOMO. Both the Economist and FT use the incorrect source (but at least FT is aware of this). This also explains why FT and the Economist give a completely different picture of Italy: the data they use is not a statistical sample, the way that was used to select it introduces a strong bias. Please don’t assume what I do and don’t know! OK, in terms of actual numbers, please give me Italy’s total excess deaths and total deaths related to Covid-19. For sure I know you can't read." For sure I know you can’t answer! | |||
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"Why do so many still defend the government. It's clear they messed this up. They were unprepared, because they have been running public services down for the past decade. They then dithered at the last minute when they still had some breathing space to use. Dithered on ordering PPE, dithered on ordering ventilators, dithered on setting up testing and ordering tests, dithered on the lock down and we still have flights coming in and no quarantine. They seriously considered doing the herd immunity thing like Sweden when we clearly do not have the ability to attempt that, due to the state of our society and public services. Why did they even think we could ever manage a herd immunity strategy, talk about living in a bubble! " It's not the government that orders ppe. It's the nhs procurement managers. | |||
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"Why do so many still defend the government. It's clear they messed this up. They were unprepared, because they have been running public services down for the past decade. They then dithered at the last minute when they still had some breathing space to use. Dithered on ordering PPE, dithered on ordering ventilators, dithered on setting up testing and ordering tests, dithered on the lock down and we still have flights coming in and no quarantine. They seriously considered doing the herd immunity thing like Sweden when we clearly do not have the ability to attempt that, due to the state of our society and public services. Why did they even think we could ever manage a herd immunity strategy, talk about living in a bubble! It's not the government that orders ppe. It's the nhs procurement managers." 100% correct Sir. Some people are so quick to blame the government and the media do not help. 86% of Care Homes are privately owned, they are (excessively) profit making businesses where residents pay £4K plus per month. Private Businesses should be supplying their own PPE, but sadly they concentrated to much on Profit. Then somehow the media portray this as a Government problem. If that is the case, I would be chuffed to bits if the Government bought all of my business consumables  | |||
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"Under normal circumstances, but obviously to order pandemic levels . Must be a government responsibility surely because extra emergency funding must be required. Also it was the government that cut the funding for reserve PPE stock that was held. For a pandemic scenario. That meant we went into it with 40% less PPE than we would have without Jeremy Hunts meddling/budget cutting. " I do not think we should be blaming the Government given that every Government is facing the same problem. Germany are complaining today and allegedly we are two weeks behind them (never understood how that can be ). As demonstrated, no Government was prepared for this! | |||
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"Private nursing homes charge Upto £50,000 per year per resident. Now they need to spend some of the money all of a sudden government need to provide the ppe.." Yep nothing to do with the gmnt whatsoever How many times can you have the same argument? | |||
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"The economist explains how it differs from the EuroMomo. So you accept FRance’s figures, the UK’s revised figures but not the figures for Lombardy because it blows a hole in your argument! I known how those figures are collected (and you would too if you spent some time informing yourself). That is why I say that Lombardy figures are incorrect. In all countries the national statistics agency collect daily deaths, in Italy this is not the case. They have a separate agency for this: SISMG. This one feeds EuroMOMO. Both the Economist and FT use the incorrect source (but at least FT is aware of this). This also explains why FT and the Economist give a completely different picture of Italy: the data they use is not a statistical sample, the way that was used to select it introduces a strong bias. Please don’t assume what I do and don’t know! OK, in terms of actual numbers, please give me Italy’s total excess deaths and total deaths related to Covid-19. For sure I know you can't read. For sure I know you can’t answer! " Of course I can't I've already told you so. Those numbers are probably somewhere on the SISMG website. I just looked at EuroMOMO and, as I have already said, they don't give absolute numbers. They only give the z-score. You can see that the excess deaths number in UK is far higher than any other country in Europe compared to the baseline. | |||
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"Private nursing homes charge Upto £50,000 per year per resident. Now they need to spend some of the money all of a sudden government need to provide the ppe.. Yep nothing to do with the gmnt whatsoever How many times can you have the same argument?" This should be emphasised much clearer in the Media! | |||
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"Private nursing homes charge Upto £50,000 per year per resident. Now they need to spend some of the money all of a sudden government need to provide the ppe.." Is that the average cost ? Or is the £50,000 pa the high end of the scale? | |||
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"Private nursing homes charge Upto £50,000 per year per resident. Now they need to spend some of the money all of a sudden government need to provide the ppe.." It's difficult to buy PPE for a small care home when your government is trying to buy all the available PPE for the NHS, involving even the military to help with logistics. I really can't imagine how a small business can be competitive with that. | |||
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"Private nursing homes charge Upto £50,000 per year per resident. Now they need to spend some of the money all of a sudden government need to provide the ppe.. It's difficult to buy PPE for a small care home when your government is trying to buy all the available PPE for the NHS, involving even the military to help with logistics. I really can't imagine how a small business can be competitive with that." So why weren't the Private Care Homes prepared with PPE? | |||
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"Private nursing homes charge Upto £50,000 per year per resident. Now they need to spend some of the money all of a sudden government need to provide the ppe.. It's difficult to buy PPE for a small care home when your government is trying to buy all the available PPE for the NHS, involving even the military to help with logistics. I really can't imagine how a small business can be competitive with that. So why weren't the Private Care Homes prepared with PPE? " Ask matt Hancock | |||
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"Private nursing homes charge Upto £50,000 per year per resident. Now they need to spend some of the money all of a sudden government need to provide the ppe.. Is that the average cost ? Or is the £50,000 pa the high end of the scale? " Average uk cost for nursing care is between 45k and 48k. That's the average. Just below £1000 per week. | |||
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"Private nursing homes charge Upto £50,000 per year per resident. Now they need to spend some of the money all of a sudden government need to provide the ppe.. It's difficult to buy PPE for a small care home when your government is trying to buy all the available PPE for the NHS, involving even the military to help with logistics. I really can't imagine how a small business can be competitive with that. So why weren't the Private Care Homes prepared with PPE? Ask matt Hancock " But Matt Hancock has nothing to do with Private Care Homes! | |||
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"The Boris Pom Pom girls here are so endoctrinated and infatuated with their blondie that even if he was to drop a nuclear bomb on London, they would still think the guy is great. Pathetic is all I can think of. Lack of PPE, Cheltenham festival, care homes disaster, lack of testing and blondie carrying on shaking hands at the start of all this without even attending Cobra meetings. " And the red flag wavers will continue to complain. The government is not responsible for everything. | |||
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"Private nursing homes charge Upto £50,000 per year per resident. Now they need to spend some of the money all of a sudden government need to provide the ppe.. It's difficult to buy PPE for a small care home when your government is trying to buy all the available PPE for the NHS, involving even the military to help with logistics. I really can't imagine how a small business can be competitive with that. So why weren't the Private Care Homes prepared with PPE? Ask matt Hancock But Matt Hancock has nothing to do with Private Care Homes! " So why,a week ago,did he announce a social care plan to tackle the care home crises? | |||
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"The Boris Pom Pom girls here are so endoctrinated and infatuated with their blondie that even if he was to drop a nuclear bomb on London, they would still think the guy is great. Pathetic is all I can think of. Lack of PPE, Cheltenham festival, care homes disaster, lack of testing and blondie carrying on shaking hands at the start of all this without even attending Cobra meetings. And the red flag wavers will continue to complain. The government is not responsible for everything." And the gmnt is blameless | |||
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"The Boris Pom Pom girls here are so endoctrinated and infatuated with their blondie that even if he was to drop a nuclear bomb on London, they would still think the guy is great. Pathetic is all I can think of. Lack of PPE, Cheltenham festival, care homes disaster, lack of testing and blondie carrying on shaking hands at the start of all this without even attending Cobra meetings. And the red flag wavers will continue to complain. The government is not responsible for everything." It's not a crime to ask for things to be done better. | |||
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"The economist explains how it differs from the EuroMomo. So you accept FRance’s figures, the UK’s revised figures but not the figures for Lombardy because it blows a hole in your argument! I known how those figures are collected (and you would too if you spent some time informing yourself). That is why I say that Lombardy figures are incorrect. In all countries the national statistics agency collect daily deaths, in Italy this is not the case. They have a separate agency for this: SISMG. This one feeds EuroMOMO. Both the Economist and FT use the incorrect source (but at least FT is aware of this). This also explains why FT and the Economist give a completely different picture of Italy: the data they use is not a statistical sample, the way that was used to select it introduces a strong bias. Please don’t assume what I do and don’t know! OK, in terms of actual numbers, please give me Italy’s total excess deaths and total deaths related to Covid-19. For sure I know you can't read. For sure I know you can’t answer! Of course I can't I've already told you so. Those numbers are probably somewhere on the SISMG website. I just looked at EuroMOMO and, as I have already said, they don't give absolute numbers. They only give the z-score. You can see that the excess deaths number in UK is far higher than any other country in Europe compared to the baseline." So you can’t give me absolute numbers but yet you state that the UK has more deaths than Italy. ONS figures to the 17th April, Show the total excess deaths in the UK stood at 26829, of which 19083 have been attributed to Covid-19. The official daily figures up to the 17th was 14576 but another 4000 was added to that figure yesterday. Give me comparable figures to support your claim regarding a Italy’s stats. ( btw it doesn’t take much searching to discover that it’s very likely the Italian figures are way under reported) | |||
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"Italy has over 27,000 deaths so we aren’t even close? " We already passed 27k | |||
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"Private nursing homes charge Upto £50,000 per year per resident. Now they need to spend some of the money all of a sudden government need to provide the ppe.. It's difficult to buy PPE for a small care home when your government is trying to buy all the available PPE for the NHS, involving even the military to help with logistics. I really can't imagine how a small business can be competitive with that. So why weren't the Private Care Homes prepared with PPE? Ask matt Hancock But Matt Hancock has nothing to do with Private Care Homes! So why,a week ago,did he announce a social care plan to tackle the care home crises?" Because the Government are stepping up to help those who have been failed by those paid to care for them! | |||
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"Probably a lot will be clapping the NHS as well. Then lambasting the NHS next time doctors or nurses go on strike or ask for a pay rise etc... Seems like a lot of people run on pure tribalism, without ability to process the facts in front of them. Germany puts us to absolute shame as a nation atm. "  | |||
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"Probably a lot will be clapping the NHS as well. Then lambasting the NHS next time doctors or nurses go on strike or ask for a pay rise etc... Seems like a lot of people run on pure tribalism, without ability to process the facts in front of them. Germany puts us to absolute shame as a nation atm. " | |||
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"Private nursing homes charge Upto £50,000 per year per resident. Now they need to spend some of the money all of a sudden government need to provide the ppe.. It's difficult to buy PPE for a small care home when your government is trying to buy all the available PPE for the NHS, involving even the military to help with logistics. I really can't imagine how a small business can be competitive with that. So why weren't the Private Care Homes prepared with PPE? Ask matt Hancock But Matt Hancock has nothing to do with Private Care Homes! So why,a week ago,did he announce a social care plan to tackle the care home crises? Because the Government are stepping up to help those who have been failed by those paid to care for them! " You just said they had nothing to do with care homes, | |||
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"Private nursing homes charge Upto £50,000 per year per resident. Now they need to spend some of the money all of a sudden government need to provide the ppe.. It's difficult to buy PPE for a small care home when your government is trying to buy all the available PPE for the NHS, involving even the military to help with logistics. I really can't imagine how a small business can be competitive with that. So why weren't the Private Care Homes prepared with PPE? " Private businesses in general are not prepared for pandemics or anything like that. Usually in this extreme situations the govern steps-in. Why all those businesses that are using government money didn't have a pandemic stockpile of pounds? | |||
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"Private nursing homes charge Upto £50,000 per year per resident. Now they need to spend some of the money all of a sudden government need to provide the ppe.. It's difficult to buy PPE for a small care home when your government is trying to buy all the available PPE for the NHS, involving even the military to help with logistics. I really can't imagine how a small business can be competitive with that. So why weren't the Private Care Homes prepared with PPE? Ask matt Hancock But Matt Hancock has nothing to do with Private Care Homes! So why,a week ago,did he announce a social care plan to tackle the care home crises? Because the Government are stepping up to help those who have been failed by those paid to care for them! You just said they had nothing to do with care homes, " Not sure what bit you are struggling with. They shouldn't have anything to do with Care homes, they are stepping up to stop people dying! | |||
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"Private nursing homes charge Upto £50,000 per year per resident. Now they need to spend some of the money all of a sudden government need to provide the ppe.. It's difficult to buy PPE for a small care home when your government is trying to buy all the available PPE for the NHS, involving even the military to help with logistics. I really can't imagine how a small business can be competitive with that. So why weren't the Private Care Homes prepared with PPE? Private businesses in general are not prepared for pandemics or anything like that. Usually in this extreme situations the govern steps-in. Why all those businesses that are using government money didn't have a pandemic stockpile of pounds?" The care system is a mixture of public and private here.There was a career on here a few Weeks ago and she said even in private care homes they have people who are funded through the local council so ultimately the gmnt.its a 2 tiered system. | |||
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"I do think there is an argument to say it's pointless to compare the rates in different countries due to demographics etc. Saying that in the early days one of the biggest defences of the handling of the situation was that we were doing better than a lot of other countries..this is certainly not The case now. You would also a thiught a country with the infrastructure we have got,and with Hancock telling parliament back in jan..we were prepared for it..that we may have handled it more effectively. Said it before and I'll say it again..once this is over we need a proper independent enquiry." Let's not forget we had the advantages of another fortnight to prepare. Oh and the fact that the English channel meant that there was only 1 way by road or rail at least into the country, reducing cross-country contamination. We actually had improved circumstances on most other places in Europe to start out with. B | |||
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"How prepared should we have been? 18 warehouses permanently full of ppe that may have an expiry date. When should we have been prepared, 3,6, 12, 18 months ago. You mentioned the EU not me, and seeing as you did, can you shed light on the EU procurement club and its success on delivering ppe? Should have, could have, would have doesn't help the present situation We need to deal with the here and now, and apportion blame when everything comes to light after the end of the pandemic. " The blame is already being shifted | |||
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"The economist explains how it differs from the EuroMomo. So you accept FRance’s figures, the UK’s revised figures but not the figures for Lombardy because it blows a hole in your argument! I known how those figures are collected (and you would too if you spent some time informing yourself). That is why I say that Lombardy figures are incorrect. In all countries the national statistics agency collect daily deaths, in Italy this is not the case. They have a separate agency for this: SISMG. This one feeds EuroMOMO. Both the Economist and FT use the incorrect source (but at least FT is aware of this). This also explains why FT and the Economist give a completely different picture of Italy: the data they use is not a statistical sample, the way that was used to select it introduces a strong bias. Please don’t assume what I do and don’t know! OK, in terms of actual numbers, please give me Italy’s total excess deaths and total deaths related to Covid-19. For sure I know you can't read. For sure I know you can’t answer! Of course I can't I've already told you so. Those numbers are probably somewhere on the SISMG website. I just looked at EuroMOMO and, as I have already said, they don't give absolute numbers. They only give the z-score. You can see that the excess deaths number in UK is far higher than any other country in Europe compared to the baseline. So you can’t give me absolute numbers but yet you state that the UK has more deaths than Italy. ONS figures to the 17th April, Show the total excess deaths in the UK stood at 26829, of which 19083 have been attributed to Covid-19. The official daily figures up to the 17th was 14576 but another 4000 was added to that figure yesterday. Give me comparable figures to support your claim regarding a Italy’s stats. ( btw it doesn’t take much searching to discover that it’s very likely the Italian figures are way under reported) " Maybe I'm not good at explaining, it seems you don't understand anything I write. I already told you many times that I don't have those figures! I can't give you absolute numbers because I don't have them. And they are not useful. There is a reason if EuroMOMO only shows the z-score, the reason is that you can't compare absolute numbers of excess deaths from different countries without considering their baseline. 1 more death per week has a very different impact in a country where you usually have only 4000 deaths per week compared to a country that has 10000 deaths per week. UK is the country that was affected much worse than any other country in Europe, according to EuroMOMO. But I guess you are about to ask me about absolute figures. | |||
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"How prepared should we have been? 18 warehouses permanently full of ppe that may have an expiry date. When should we have been prepared, 3,6, 12, 18 months ago. You mentioned the EU not me, and seeing as you did, can you shed light on the EU procurement club and its success on delivering ppe? Should have, could have, would have doesn't help the present situation We need to deal with the here and now, and apportion blame when everything comes to light after the end of the pandemic. " A simple thing would of been not to have held Cheltenham. One crucial thing that absolutely smashes any argument that this government, did take this seriously, is Boris's handshaking of Covid patients. He was totally flippant about the risks to himself, if he didn't care about his own personal health, he certainly wasn't talking the nation's health seriously. That mindset permeated the whole strategy early on in this crisis. | |||
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"How prepared should we have been? 18 warehouses permanently full of ppe that may have an expiry date. When should we have been prepared, 3,6, 12, 18 months ago. You mentioned the EU not me, and seeing as you did, can you shed light on the EU procurement club and its success on delivering ppe? Should have, could have, would have doesn't help the present situation We need to deal with the here and now, and apportion blame when everything comes to light after the end of the pandemic. " Other countries in Europe haven't had to build hospitals in two weeks but that is because they don't run their NHS on a shoe string like we do. Being prepared for a country as rich as the UK is to have enough PPE at all time and it looks like right from the start some care homes and hospitals didn't have the right stuff. Have you ever heard of logistics. The gvt were telling us that we had enough PPE that the stuff was slow to be delivered. Good job we were not at war. The UK is the 6th largest economy in the world. Having a barve man who is 100 years old walking up and down his garden to raise money for the NHS is admirable but it is also pathetic. Charity are a sign of government's failures. Running out of gowns so quickly is unforgivable. And I bet you that the reason why masks are not compulsory here yet is because this lot haven't got enough yet. Otherwise, it would be the same as in France, Germany etc... compulsory. As for the EU, the idea was to say that this country is always good at finding scapegoats for everything that goes wrong, the EU being one of them. | |||
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"The economist explains how it differs from the EuroMomo. So you accept FRance’s figures, the UK’s revised figures but not the figures for Lombardy because it blows a hole in your argument! I known how those figures are collected (and you would too if you spent some time informing yourself). That is why I say that Lombardy figures are incorrect. In all countries the national statistics agency collect daily deaths, in Italy this is not the case. They have a separate agency for this: SISMG. This one feeds EuroMOMO. Both the Economist and FT use the incorrect source (but at least FT is aware of this). This also explains why FT and the Economist give a completely different picture of Italy: the data they use is not a statistical sample, the way that was used to select it introduces a strong bias. Please don’t assume what I do and don’t know! OK, in terms of actual numbers, please give me Italy’s total excess deaths and total deaths related to Covid-19. For sure I know you can't read. For sure I know you can’t answer! Of course I can't I've already told you so. Those numbers are probably somewhere on the SISMG website. I just looked at EuroMOMO and, as I have already said, they don't give absolute numbers. They only give the z-score. You can see that the excess deaths number in UK is far higher than any other country in Europe compared to the baseline. So you can’t give me absolute numbers but yet you state that the UK has more deaths than Italy. ONS figures to the 17th April, Show the total excess deaths in the UK stood at 26829, of which 19083 have been attributed to Covid-19. The official daily figures up to the 17th was 14576 but another 4000 was added to that figure yesterday. Give me comparable figures to support your claim regarding a Italy’s stats. ( btw it doesn’t take much searching to discover that it’s very likely the Italian figures are way under reported) Maybe I'm not good at explaining, it seems you don't understand anything I write. I already told you many times that I don't have those figures! I can't give you absolute numbers because I don't have them. And they are not useful. There is a reason if EuroMOMO only shows the z-score, the reason is that you can't compare absolute numbers of excess deaths from different countries without considering their baseline. 1 more death per week has a very different impact in a country where you usually have only 4000 deaths per week compared to a country that has 10000 deaths per week. UK is the country that was affected much worse than any other country in Europe, according to EuroMOMO. But I guess you are about to ask me about absolute figures." I understand all that you write, it’s just that you don’t answer the questions I ask of you. And you have to take the prize for the most nonsensical statement I have read on these forums, and that takes some doing! Absolute numbers are not useful! Certainly not when they demolish your argument! I fully understand how death rates make it difficult to compare different countries, however absolute numbers make comparisons very easy, especially when you went to great lengths to show that the UK and Italy have similar populations and population densities. | |||
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"How prepared should we have been? 18 warehouses permanently full of ppe that may have an expiry date. When should we have been prepared, 3,6, 12, 18 months ago. You mentioned the EU not me, and seeing as you did, can you shed light on the EU procurement club and its success on delivering ppe? Should have, could have, would have doesn't help the present situation We need to deal with the here and now, and apportion blame when everything comes to light after the end of the pandemic. Other countries in Europe haven't had to build hospitals in two weeks but that is because they don't run their NHS on a shoe string like we do. Being prepared for a country as rich as the UK is to have enough PPE at all time and it looks like right from the start some care homes and hospitals didn't have the right stuff. Have you ever heard of logistics. The gvt were telling us that we had enough PPE that the stuff was slow to be delivered. Good job we were not at war. The UK is the 6th largest economy in the world. Having a barve man who is 100 years old walking up and down his garden to raise money for the NHS is admirable but it is also pathetic. Charity are a sign of government's failures. Running out of gowns so quickly is unforgivable. And I bet you that the reason why masks are not compulsory here yet is because this lot haven't got enough yet. Otherwise, it would be the same as in France, Germany etc... compulsory. As for the EU, the idea was to say that this country is always good at finding scapegoats for everything that goes wrong, the EU being one of them. " | |||
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"We are doing the best we can do under the circumstances. We are are including deaths in care homes (unlike others) and we also have the densest population centre in Europe. In the long run we will only know by the aggregate increase in deaths above the average for this time of year - which won’t be anytime soon " | |||
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"How many other countries have an NHS or equivalent? I'm not defending everything the government has done, but they are not the only ones who should be answering questions. " Every country in Europe has an equivalent system. They are just better funded. Other countries rely on taxation to get decent public services but here any party mentioning tax going up is regarded as communist. France, Germany and Scandinavian countries are everything but communist. And when I go there, I see decent roads (private in France I know), trains that are cheaper and run on time as well as better and more modern hospitals. This doesn't make me a communist. Maybe we should ask ourselves why are we lacking nurses, why are doctors leaving the UK to go to New Zealand, why are our trains so crap, why do we have to build hospitals at the drop a hat, why do we lack teachers etc... And in my opinion, all these thinks are all linked together. We want state intervention and taxation to be the minimum possible. And this is the result of it all. | |||
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"How prepared should we have been? 18 warehouses permanently full of ppe that may have an expiry date. When should we have been prepared, 3,6, 12, 18 months ago. You mentioned the EU not me, and seeing as you did, can you shed light on the EU procurement club and its success on delivering ppe? Should have, could have, would have doesn't help the present situation We need to deal with the here and now, and apportion blame when everything comes to light after the end of the pandemic. Other countries in Europe haven't had to build hospitals in two weeks but that is because they don't run their NHS on a shoe string like we do. Being prepared for a country as rich as the UK is to have enough PPE at all time and it looks like right from the start some care homes and hospitals didn't have the right stuff. Have you ever heard of logistics. The gvt were telling us that we had enough PPE that the stuff was slow to be delivered. Good job we were not at war. The UK is the 6th largest economy in the world. Having a barve man who is 100 years old walking up and down his garden to raise money for the NHS is admirable but it is also pathetic. Charity are a sign of government's failures. Running out of gowns so quickly is unforgivable. And I bet you that the reason why masks are not compulsory here yet is because this lot haven't got enough yet. Otherwise, it would be the same as in France, Germany etc... compulsory. As for the EU, the idea was to say that this country is always good at finding scapegoats for everything that goes wrong, the EU being one of them. " It hasn’t been compulsory to wear masks in public in those countries you mention. Things are changing now they are relaxing restrictions but it hasn’t been that way all the way through so it’s not just our Government. | |||
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"We are doing the best we can do under the circumstances. We are are including deaths in care homes (unlike others) and we also have the densest population centre in Europe. In the long run we will only know by the aggregate increase in deaths above the average for this time of year - which won’t be anytime soon " How is it unlike others? I was under the impression that there was some recent controversy. This was when the French figures were including care homes, when ours were not. | |||
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"How prepared should we have been? 18 warehouses permanently full of ppe that may have an expiry date. When should we have been prepared, 3,6, 12, 18 months ago. You mentioned the EU not me, and seeing as you did, can you shed light on the EU procurement club and its success on delivering ppe? Should have, could have, would have doesn't help the present situation We need to deal with the here and now, and apportion blame when everything comes to light after the end of the pandemic. Other countries in Europe haven't had to build hospitals in two weeks but that is because they don't run their NHS on a shoe string like we do. Being prepared for a country as rich as the UK is to have enough PPE at all time and it looks like right from the start some care homes and hospitals didn't have the right stuff. Have you ever heard of logistics. The gvt were telling us that we had enough PPE that the stuff was slow to be delivered. Good job we were not at war. The UK is the 6th largest economy in the world. Having a barve man who is 100 years old walking up and down his garden to raise money for the NHS is admirable but it is also pathetic. Charity are a sign of government's failures. Running out of gowns so quickly is unforgivable. And I bet you that the reason why masks are not compulsory here yet is because this lot haven't got enough yet. Otherwise, it would be the same as in France, Germany etc... compulsory. As for the EU, the idea was to say that this country is always good at finding scapegoats for everything that goes wrong, the EU being one of them. " Germany, Italy and Spain have all done the same as the uk, france may have but I didnt bother looking them up but they were shifting patients hundreds of miles by train and plane to less crowded ones, but hey why let simple things like facts get in the way of political hatred when we should all be helping | |||
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"How prepared should we have been? 18 warehouses permanently full of ppe that may have an expiry date. When should we have been prepared, 3,6, 12, 18 months ago. You mentioned the EU not me, and seeing as you did, can you shed light on the EU procurement club and its success on delivering ppe? Should have, could have, would have doesn't help the present situation We need to deal with the here and now, and apportion blame when everything comes to light after the end of the pandemic. Other countries in Europe haven't had to build hospitals in two weeks but that is because they don't run their NHS on a shoe string like we do. Being prepared for a country as rich as the UK is to have enough PPE at all time and it looks like right from the start some care homes and hospitals didn't have the right stuff. Have you ever heard of logistics. The gvt were telling us that we had enough PPE that the stuff was slow to be delivered. Good job we were not at war. The UK is the 6th largest economy in the world. Having a barve man who is 100 years old walking up and down his garden to raise money for the NHS is admirable but it is also pathetic. Charity are a sign of government's failures. Running out of gowns so quickly is unforgivable. And I bet you that the reason why masks are not compulsory here yet is because this lot haven't got enough yet. Otherwise, it would be the same as in France, Germany etc... compulsory. As for the EU, the idea was to say that this country is always good at finding scapegoats for everything that goes wrong, the EU being one of them. Germany, Italy and Spain have all done the same as the uk, france may have but I didnt bother looking them up but they were shifting patients hundreds of miles by train and plane to less crowded ones, but hey why let simple things like facts get in the way of political hatred when we should all be helping " France transferred some patients from one region to another to alleviate the number in the north east if I remember well. And no, Italy, Spain, France or Germany haven't had to build hospitals unless I am mistaken. If I am wrong, I'd love to know where you got this from. Talking about Europe, it was also nice to see that some French patients were transferred in neighbouring countries such as Germany and Luxembourg for example. This hasn't been mentioned much in our post Brexit delirium. | |||
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"Why do so many still defend the government. It's clear they messed this up. They were unprepared, because they have been running public services down for the past decade. They then dithered at the last minute when they still had some breathing space to use. Dithered on ordering PPE, dithered on ordering ventilators, dithered on setting up testing and ordering tests, dithered on the lock down and we still have flights coming in and no quarantine. They seriously considered doing the herd immunity thing like Sweden when we clearly do not have the ability to attempt that, due to the state of our society and public services. Why did they even think we could ever manage a herd immunity strategy, talk about living in a bubble! It's not the government that orders ppe. It's the nhs procurement managers. 100% correct Sir. Some people are so quick to blame the government and the media do not help. 86% of Care Homes are privately owned, they are (excessively) profit making businesses where residents pay £4K plus per month. Private Businesses should be supplying their own PPE, but sadly they concentrated to much on Profit. Then somehow the media portray this as a Government problem. If that is the case, I would be chuffed to bits if the Government bought all of my business consumables "An excellent point. | |||
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"How prepared should we have been? 18 warehouses permanently full of ppe that may have an expiry date. When should we have been prepared, 3,6, 12, 18 months ago. You mentioned the EU not me, and seeing as you did, can you shed light on the EU procurement club and its success on delivering ppe? Should have, could have, would have doesn't help the present situation We need to deal with the here and now, and apportion blame when everything comes to light after the end of the pandemic. Other countries in Europe haven't had to build hospitals in two weeks but that is because they don't run their NHS on a shoe string like we do. Being prepared for a country as rich as the UK is to have enough PPE at all time and it looks like right from the start some care homes and hospitals didn't have the right stuff. Have you ever heard of logistics. The gvt were telling us that we had enough PPE that the stuff was slow to be delivered. Good job we were not at war. The UK is the 6th largest economy in the world. Having a barve man who is 100 years old walking up and down his garden to raise money for the NHS is admirable but it is also pathetic. Charity are a sign of government's failures. Running out of gowns so quickly is unforgivable. And I bet you that the reason why masks are not compulsory here yet is because this lot haven't got enough yet. Otherwise, it would be the same as in France, Germany etc... compulsory. As for the EU, the idea was to say that this country is always good at finding scapegoats for everything that goes wrong, the EU being one of them. Germany, Italy and Spain have all done the same as the uk, france may have but I didnt bother looking them up but they were shifting patients hundreds of miles by train and plane to less crowded ones, but hey why let simple things like facts get in the way of political hatred when we should all be helping France transferred some patients from one region to another to alleviate the number in the north east if I remember well. And no, Italy, Spain, France or Germany haven't had to build hospitals unless I am mistaken. If I am wrong, I'd love to know where you got this from. Talking about Europe, it was also nice to see that some French patients were transferred in neighbouring countries such as Germany and Luxembourg for example. This hasn't been mentioned much in our post Brexit delirium. " Just google, has germany built and temporary hospitals as I did and it comes up. | |||
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"Oh yes, one hospital with 100 beds. Not quite on the same scale as here where we have built eight or nine. Believe me, they don't have to park patient in hospitals corridors over there every winter like we do here. No waiting list of six months to get a knee operation. It's a different world. " So you were telling lies about no other countries building temporary hospitals then. | |||
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"Oh yes, one hospital with 100 beds. Not quite on the same scale as here where we have built eight or nine. Believe me, they don't have to park patient in hospitals corridors over there every winter like we do here. No waiting list of six months to get a knee operation. It's a different world. " | |||
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"Oh yes, one hospital with 100 beds. Not quite on the same scale as here where we have built eight or nine. Believe me, they don't have to park patient in hospitals corridors over there every winter like we do here. No waiting list of six months to get a knee operation. It's a different world. So you were telling lies about no other countries building temporary hospitals then. " LOL. Lies? So Germany builds a hospital with 1000 beds. Here we build one with 4000 in London, one in Bristol, Manchester, Harrogate etc... pretty much everywhere in the country. Can you spot a tiny difference. And I note that you write hospitals (with a 's'). So you were telling lies then because I can only one in Germany. | |||
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"How prepared should we have been? 18 warehouses permanently full of ppe that may have an expiry date. When should we have been prepared, 3,6, 12, 18 months ago. You mentioned the EU not me, and seeing as you did, can you shed light on the EU procurement club and its success on delivering ppe? Should have, could have, would have doesn't help the present situation We need to deal with the here and now, and apportion blame when everything comes to light after the end of the pandemic. Other countries in Europe haven't had to build hospitals in two weeks but that is because they don't run their NHS on a shoe string like we do. Being prepared for a country as rich as the UK is to have enough PPE at all time and it looks like right from the start some care homes and hospitals didn't have the right stuff. Have you ever heard of logistics. The gvt were telling us that we had enough PPE that the stuff was slow to be delivered. Good job we were not at war. The UK is the 6th largest economy in the world. Having a barve man who is 100 years old walking up and down his garden to raise money for the NHS is admirable but it is also pathetic. Charity are a sign of government's failures. Running out of gowns so quickly is unforgivable. And I bet you that the reason why masks are not compulsory here yet is because this lot haven't got enough yet. Otherwise, it would be the same as in France, Germany etc... compulsory. As for the EU, the idea was to say that this country is always good at finding scapegoats for everything that goes wrong, the EU being one of them. " The EU Have not covered themselves in glory with this either. They even finally admitted they owe Italy a huge apology over how they failed them. Also Germany and France at one point refused to export crucial medical equipment to other EU countries All countries have had major problems and as been said on here before until long after this is over we won't know what works best as all countries vary so much | |||
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"How prepared should we have been? 18 warehouses permanently full of ppe that may have an expiry date. When should we have been prepared, 3,6, 12, 18 months ago. You mentioned the EU not me, and seeing as you did, can you shed light on the EU procurement club and its success on delivering ppe? Should have, could have, would have doesn't help the present situation We need to deal with the here and now, and apportion blame when everything comes to light after the end of the pandemic. Other countries in Europe haven't had to build hospitals in two weeks but that is because they don't run their NHS on a shoe string like we do. Being prepared for a country as rich as the UK is to have enough PPE at all time and it looks like right from the start some care homes and hospitals didn't have the right stuff. Have you ever heard of logistics. The gvt were telling us that we had enough PPE that the stuff was slow to be delivered. Good job we were not at war. The UK is the 6th largest economy in the world. Having a barve man who is 100 years old walking up and down his garden to raise money for the NHS is admirable but it is also pathetic. Charity are a sign of government's failures. Running out of gowns so quickly is unforgivable. And I bet you that the reason why masks are not compulsory here yet is because this lot haven't got enough yet. Otherwise, it would be the same as in France, Germany etc... compulsory. As for the EU, the idea was to say that this country is always good at finding scapegoats for everything that goes wrong, the EU being one of them. The EU Have not covered themselves in glory with this either. They even finally admitted they owe Italy a huge apology over how they failed them. Also Germany and France at one point refused to export crucial medical equipment to other EU countries All countries have had major problems and as been said on here before until long after this is over we won't know what works best as all countries vary so much" Germany gave us ventilstors As mentioned above there was a fair bit of cross country cooperation. It's weird how any defence of the gmnt is answered by a swipe at soneone else. If you are fault for something..saying well other people do it is not much of a defence imho. | |||
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"Oh yes, one hospital with 100 beds. Not quite on the same scale as here where we have built eight or nine. Believe me, they don't have to park patient in hospitals corridors over there every winter like we do here. No waiting list of six months to get a knee operation. It's a different world. So you were telling lies about no other countries building temporary hospitals then. LOL. Lies? So Germany builds a hospital with 1000 beds. Here we build one with 4000 in London, one in Bristol, Manchester, Harrogate etc... pretty much everywhere in the country. Can you spot a tiny difference. And I note that you write hospitals (with a 's'). So you were telling lies then because I can only one in Germany. " Check out the independent newspaper, they have a story about the Germans using public halls and hotels as temporary ones too. The problem is the UK media seem hell bent on being anti uk instead of lifting peoples spirits they seem to delight in frightening people | |||
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"You can’t beat the German system...until it’s pointed out that it’s part privatised and insurance based. " Its certainly funded a lot better. | |||
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"Health is primarily a national matter. The EU doesn't really intervene in the way countries manage their health system so I can't see how the EU can be criticized here. They are now looking at helping some countries financially. " Easy.someone else to point the finger at. | |||
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"You can’t beat the German system...until it’s pointed out that it’s part privatised and insurance based. " But still receives substantially more state funding than the NHS. I would not care if the NHS was the same model, as long as the funding from the state was the same. It matters not the colour of the cat, just that it catches the rat! | |||
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"Oh yes, one hospital with 100 beds. Not quite on the same scale as here where we have built eight or nine. Believe me, they don't have to park patient in hospitals corridors over there every winter like we do here. No waiting list of six months to get a knee operation. It's a different world. So you were telling lies about no other countries building temporary hospitals then. LOL. Lies? So Germany builds a hospital with 1000 beds. Here we build one with 4000 in London, one in Bristol, Manchester, Harrogate etc... pretty much everywhere in the country. Can you spot a tiny difference. And I note that you write hospitals (with a 's'). So you were telling lies then because I can only one in Germany. Check out the independent newspaper, they have a story about the Germans using public halls and hotels as temporary ones too. The problem is the UK media seem hell bent on being anti uk instead of lifting peoples spirits they seem to delight in frightening people " The printed media in this country is overwhelming right wing. And not remotely anti uk. When you have the likes of The mail and the times having a pop you are doing something seriously wrong. | |||
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"How prepared should we have been? 18 warehouses permanently full of ppe that may have an expiry date. When should we have been prepared, 3,6, 12, 18 months ago. You mentioned the EU not me, and seeing as you did, can you shed light on the EU procurement club and its success on delivering ppe? Should have, could have, would have doesn't help the present situation We need to deal with the here and now, and apportion blame when everything comes to light after the end of the pandemic. Other countries in Europe haven't had to build hospitals in two weeks but that is because they don't run their NHS on a shoe string like we do. Being prepared for a country as rich as the UK is to have enough PPE at all time and it looks like right from the start some care homes and hospitals didn't have the right stuff. Have you ever heard of logistics. The gvt were telling us that we had enough PPE that the stuff was slow to be delivered. Good job we were not at war. The UK is the 6th largest economy in the world. Having a barve man who is 100 years old walking up and down his garden to raise money for the NHS is admirable but it is also pathetic. Charity are a sign of government's failures. Running out of gowns so quickly is unforgivable. And I bet you that the reason why masks are not compulsory here yet is because this lot haven't got enough yet. Otherwise, it would be the same as in France, Germany etc... compulsory. As for the EU, the idea was to say that this country is always good at finding scapegoats for everything that goes wrong, the EU being one of them. Germany, Italy and Spain have all done the same as the uk, france may have but I didnt bother looking them up but they were shifting patients hundreds of miles by train and plane to less crowded ones, but hey why let simple things like facts get in the way of political hatred when we should all be helping France transferred some patients from one region to another to alleviate the number in the north east if I remember well. And no, Italy, Spain, France or Germany haven't had to build hospitals unless I am mistaken. If I am wrong, I'd love to know where you got this from. Talking about Europe, it was also nice to see that some French patients were transferred in neighbouring countries such as Germany and Luxembourg for example. This hasn't been mentioned much in our post Brexit delirium. " Other Euro countries may not have built extra hospitals but their hospitals were overwhelmed. There are several inside films by sky and BBC filming inside Italian and Spanish hospitals. They were in an horrific state with ICU beds all taken patients in beds were all over the place in corridors and converted waiting rooms. Many died because of lack of capacity. I'm glad our nightingale hospitals are hardly used and at least we have them if needed. I also notice the USA has copied the UK in this respect | |||
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"How prepared should we have been? 18 warehouses permanently full of ppe that may have an expiry date. When should we have been prepared, 3,6, 12, 18 months ago. You mentioned the EU not me, and seeing as you did, can you shed light on the EU procurement club and its success on delivering ppe? Should have, could have, would have doesn't help the present situation We need to deal with the here and now, and apportion blame when everything comes to light after the end of the pandemic. Other countries in Europe haven't had to build hospitals in two weeks but that is because they don't run their NHS on a shoe string like we do. Being prepared for a country as rich as the UK is to have enough PPE at all time and it looks like right from the start some care homes and hospitals didn't have the right stuff. Have you ever heard of logistics. The gvt were telling us that we had enough PPE that the stuff was slow to be delivered. Good job we were not at war. The UK is the 6th largest economy in the world. Having a barve man who is 100 years old walking up and down his garden to raise money for the NHS is admirable but it is also pathetic. Charity are a sign of government's failures. Running out of gowns so quickly is unforgivable. And I bet you that the reason why masks are not compulsory here yet is because this lot haven't got enough yet. Otherwise, it would be the same as in France, Germany etc... compulsory. As for the EU, the idea was to say that this country is always good at finding scapegoats for everything that goes wrong, the EU being one of them. Germany, Italy and Spain have all done the same as the uk, france may have but I didnt bother looking them up but they were shifting patients hundreds of miles by train and plane to less crowded ones, but hey why let simple things like facts get in the way of political hatred when we should all be helping France transferred some patients from one region to another to alleviate the number in the north east if I remember well. And no, Italy, Spain, France or Germany haven't had to build hospitals unless I am mistaken. If I am wrong, I'd love to know where you got this from. Talking about Europe, it was also nice to see that some French patients were transferred in neighbouring countries such as Germany and Luxembourg for example. This hasn't been mentioned much in our post Brexit delirium. Other Euro countries may not have built extra hospitals but their hospitals were overwhelmed. There are several inside films by sky and BBC filming inside Italian and Spanish hospitals. They were in an horrific state with ICU beds all taken patients in beds were all over the place in corridors and converted waiting rooms. Many died because of lack of capacity. I'm glad our nightingale hospitals are hardly used and at least we have them if needed. I also notice the USA has copied the UK in this respect " We dont have the staff for nighingdale do we?it was mentioned here yesterday I think. Italy was overwhelmed and its widely seen they have a much better healthcare system than you.Im guessing it was because certain regions were absolutely battered. | |||
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"Oh yes, one hospital with 100 beds. Not quite on the same scale as here where we have built eight or nine. Believe me, they don't have to park patient in hospitals corridors over there every winter like we do here. No waiting list of six months to get a knee operation. It's a different world. So you were telling lies about no other countries building temporary hospitals then. LOL. Lies? So Germany builds a hospital with 1000 beds. Here we build one with 4000 in London, one in Bristol, Manchester, Harrogate etc... pretty much everywhere in the country. Can you spot a tiny difference. And I note that you write hospitals (with a 's'). So you were telling lies then because I can only one in Germany. Check out the independent newspaper, they have a story about the Germans using public halls and hotels as temporary ones too. The problem is the UK media seem hell bent on being anti uk instead of lifting peoples spirits they seem to delight in frightening people " Using halls and hotels in such tragic circumstances is one thing, having to park hospital patients every winter in hospital corridors as we've been doing in the UK for years and with endless waiting lists is slightly different. I don't want to go over the top but we have a lot to learn from other European countries when it comes to public services and not just health. Transport, schools and local government for example. Instead of this we are about to follow the other extreme, the American way. And we know how great it is there. A system to dream of...  | |||
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"Oh yes, one hospital with 100 beds. Not quite on the same scale as here where we have built eight or nine. Believe me, they don't have to park patient in hospitals corridors over there every winter like we do here. No waiting list of six months to get a knee operation. It's a different world. So you were telling lies about no other countries building temporary hospitals then. LOL. Lies? So Germany builds a hospital with 1000 beds. Here we build one with 4000 in London, one in Bristol, Manchester, Harrogate etc... pretty much everywhere in the country. Can you spot a tiny difference. And I note that you write hospitals (with a 's'). So you were telling lies then because I can only one in Germany. Check out the independent newspaper, they have a story about the Germans using public halls and hotels as temporary ones too. The problem is the UK media seem hell bent on being anti uk instead of lifting peoples spirits they seem to delight in frightening people Using halls and hotels in such tragic circumstances is one thing, having to park hospital patients every winter in hospital corridors as we've been doing in the UK for years and with endless waiting lists is slightly different. I don't want to go over the top but we have a lot to learn from other European countries when it comes to public services and not just health. Transport, schools and local government for example. Instead of this we are about to follow the other extreme, the American way. And we know how great it is there. A system to dream of... "And 3 guesses who we are going to be doing more business with post btexit? | |||
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"How prepared should we have been? 18 warehouses permanently full of ppe that may have an expiry date. When should we have been prepared, 3,6, 12, 18 months ago. You mentioned the EU not me, and seeing as you did, can you shed light on the EU procurement club and its success on delivering ppe? Should have, could have, would have doesn't help the present situation We need to deal with the here and now, and apportion blame when everything comes to light after the end of the pandemic. Other countries in Europe haven't had to build hospitals in two weeks but that is because they don't run their NHS on a shoe string like we do. Being prepared for a country as rich as the UK is to have enough PPE at all time and it looks like right from the start some care homes and hospitals didn't have the right stuff. Have you ever heard of logistics. The gvt were telling us that we had enough PPE that the stuff was slow to be delivered. Good job we were not at war. The UK is the 6th largest economy in the world. Having a barve man who is 100 years old walking up and down his garden to raise money for the NHS is admirable but it is also pathetic. Charity are a sign of government's failures. Running out of gowns so quickly is unforgivable. And I bet you that the reason why masks are not compulsory here yet is because this lot haven't got enough yet. Otherwise, it would be the same as in France, Germany etc... compulsory. As for the EU, the idea was to say that this country is always good at finding scapegoats for everything that goes wrong, the EU being one of them. The EU Have not covered themselves in glory with this either. They even finally admitted they owe Italy a huge apology over how they failed them. Also Germany and France at one point refused to export crucial medical equipment to other EU countries All countries have had major problems and as been said on here before until long after this is over we won't know what works best as all countries vary so much Germany gave us ventilstors As mentioned above there was a fair bit of cross country cooperation. It's weird how any defence of the gmnt is answered by a swipe at soneone else. If you are fault for something..saying well other people do it is not much of a defence imho." They may have in the end but at the start they refused as did France. They were both slapped down by EU chiefs. They make so much out of being one market and all sticking together until a crisis then revert to type. Also finally they apologised to Italy after they failed them so badly | |||
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"How prepared should we have been? 18 warehouses permanently full of ppe that may have an expiry date. When should we have been prepared, 3,6, 12, 18 months ago. You mentioned the EU not me, and seeing as you did, can you shed light on the EU procurement club and its success on delivering ppe? Should have, could have, would have doesn't help the present situation We need to deal with the here and now, and apportion blame when everything comes to light after the end of the pandemic. Other countries in Europe haven't had to build hospitals in two weeks but that is because they don't run their NHS on a shoe string like we do. Being prepared for a country as rich as the UK is to have enough PPE at all time and it looks like right from the start some care homes and hospitals didn't have the right stuff. Have you ever heard of logistics. The gvt were telling us that we had enough PPE that the stuff was slow to be delivered. Good job we were not at war. The UK is the 6th largest economy in the world. Having a barve man who is 100 years old walking up and down his garden to raise money for the NHS is admirable but it is also pathetic. Charity are a sign of government's failures. Running out of gowns so quickly is unforgivable. And I bet you that the reason why masks are not compulsory here yet is because this lot haven't got enough yet. Otherwise, it would be the same as in France, Germany etc... compulsory. As for the EU, the idea was to say that this country is always good at finding scapegoats for everything that goes wrong, the EU being one of them. Germany, Italy and Spain have all done the same as the uk, france may have but I didnt bother looking them up but they were shifting patients hundreds of miles by train and plane to less crowded ones, but hey why let simple things like facts get in the way of political hatred when we should all be helping France transferred some patients from one region to another to alleviate the number in the north east if I remember well. And no, Italy, Spain, France or Germany haven't had to build hospitals unless I am mistaken. If I am wrong, I'd love to know where you got this from. Talking about Europe, it was also nice to see that some French patients were transferred in neighbouring countries such as Germany and Luxembourg for example. This hasn't been mentioned much in our post Brexit delirium. Other Euro countries may not have built extra hospitals but their hospitals were overwhelmed. There are several inside films by sky and BBC filming inside Italian and Spanish hospitals. They were in an horrific state with ICU beds all taken patients in beds were all over the place in corridors and converted waiting rooms. Many died because of lack of capacity. I'm glad our nightingale hospitals are hardly used and at least we have them if needed. I also notice the USA has copied the UK in this respect We dont have the staff for nighingdale do we?it was mentioned here yesterday I think. Italy was overwhelmed and its widely seen they have a much better healthcare system than you.Im guessing it was because certain regions were absolutely battered. " It was an amazing achievement that they built them so quickly. Staff have been in short supply but I'm sure they would have prevailed. Unlike some here I'm glad to live in the UK yes there are problems with NHS but you could be in a country that will ignore you if you do not have insurance | |||
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"How prepared should we have been? 18 warehouses permanently full of ppe that may have an expiry date. When should we have been prepared, 3,6, 12, 18 months ago. You mentioned the EU not me, and seeing as you did, can you shed light on the EU procurement club and its success on delivering ppe? Should have, could have, would have doesn't help the present situation We need to deal with the here and now, and apportion blame when everything comes to light after the end of the pandemic. Other countries in Europe haven't had to build hospitals in two weeks but that is because they don't run their NHS on a shoe string like we do. Being prepared for a country as rich as the UK is to have enough PPE at all time and it looks like right from the start some care homes and hospitals didn't have the right stuff. Have you ever heard of logistics. The gvt were telling us that we had enough PPE that the stuff was slow to be delivered. Good job we were not at war. The UK is the 6th largest economy in the world. Having a barve man who is 100 years old walking up and down his garden to raise money for the NHS is admirable but it is also pathetic. Charity are a sign of government's failures. Running out of gowns so quickly is unforgivable. And I bet you that the reason why masks are not compulsory here yet is because this lot haven't got enough yet. Otherwise, it would be the same as in France, Germany etc... compulsory. As for the EU, the idea was to say that this country is always good at finding scapegoats for everything that goes wrong, the EU being one of them. Germany, Italy and Spain have all done the same as the uk, france may have but I didnt bother looking them up but they were shifting patients hundreds of miles by train and plane to less crowded ones, but hey why let simple things like facts get in the way of political hatred when we should all be helping France transferred some patients from one region to another to alleviate the number in the north east if I remember well. And no, Italy, Spain, France or Germany haven't had to build hospitals unless I am mistaken. If I am wrong, I'd love to know where you got this from. Talking about Europe, it was also nice to see that some French patients were transferred in neighbouring countries such as Germany and Luxembourg for example. This hasn't been mentioned much in our post Brexit delirium. Other Euro countries may not have built extra hospitals but their hospitals were overwhelmed. There are several inside films by sky and BBC filming inside Italian and Spanish hospitals. They were in an horrific state with ICU beds all taken patients in beds were all over the place in corridors and converted waiting rooms. Many died because of lack of capacity. I'm glad our nightingale hospitals are hardly used and at least we have them if needed. I also notice the USA has copied the UK in this respect We dont have the staff for nighingdale do we?it was mentioned here yesterday I think. Italy was overwhelmed and its widely seen they have a much better healthcare system than you.Im guessing it was because certain regions were absolutely battered. It was an amazing achievement that they built them so quickly. Staff have been in short supply but I'm sure they would have prevailed. Unlike some here I'm glad to live in the UK yes there are problems with NHS but you could be in a country that will ignore you if you do not have insurance " | |||
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"I do think there is an argument to say it's pointless to compare the rates in different countries due to demographics etc. Saying that in the early days one of the biggest defences of the handling of the situation was that we were doing better than a lot of other countries..this is certainly not The case now. You would also a thiught a country with the infrastructure we have got,and with Hancock telling parliament back in jan..we were prepared for it..that we may have handled it more effectively. Said it before and I'll say it again..once this is over we need a proper independent enquiry." I think it points to the earlier approach being towards the herd immunity proposal. We've only recently started to test towards the levels that might be effective, as supplies that our epidemic readiness testing showed were insufficient, weren't ordered. Requisitioning from January would have allowed us to start to catch up with the likes of Germany, who have been testing radically different volumes to us. The government knew officially that we weren't prepared with PPE, testing supplies etc from before this hit China. We just continued the line of keeping the NHS unready and underresourced for both standard operational and epidemic readiness. | |||
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"How prepared should we have been? 18 warehouses permanently full of ppe that may have an expiry date. When should we have been prepared, 3,6, 12, 18 months ago. You mentioned the EU not me, and seeing as you did, can you shed light on the EU procurement club and its success on delivering ppe? Should have, could have, would have doesn't help the present situation We need to deal with the here and now, and apportion blame when everything comes to light after the end of the pandemic. Other countries in Europe haven't had to build hospitals in two weeks but that is because they don't run their NHS on a shoe string like we do. Being prepared for a country as rich as the UK is to have enough PPE at all time and it looks like right from the start some care homes and hospitals didn't have the right stuff. Have you ever heard of logistics. The gvt were telling us that we had enough PPE that the stuff was slow to be delivered. Good job we were not at war. The UK is the 6th largest economy in the world. Having a barve man who is 100 years old walking up and down his garden to raise money for the NHS is admirable but it is also pathetic. Charity are a sign of government's failures. Running out of gowns so quickly is unforgivable. And I bet you that the reason why masks are not compulsory here yet is because this lot haven't got enough yet. Otherwise, it would be the same as in France, Germany etc... compulsory. As for the EU, the idea was to say that this country is always good at finding scapegoats for everything that goes wrong, the EU being one of them. Germany, Italy and Spain have all done the same as the uk, france may have but I didnt bother looking them up but they were shifting patients hundreds of miles by train and plane to less crowded ones, but hey why let simple things like facts get in the way of political hatred when we should all be helping France transferred some patients from one region to another to alleviate the number in the north east if I remember well. And no, Italy, Spain, France or Germany haven't had to build hospitals unless I am mistaken. If I am wrong, I'd love to know where you got this from. Talking about Europe, it was also nice to see that some French patients were transferred in neighbouring countries such as Germany and Luxembourg for example. This hasn't been mentioned much in our post Brexit delirium. Other Euro countries may not have built extra hospitals but their hospitals were overwhelmed. There are several inside films by sky and BBC filming inside Italian and Spanish hospitals. They were in an horrific state with ICU beds all taken patients in beds were all over the place in corridors and converted waiting rooms. Many died because of lack of capacity. I'm glad our nightingale hospitals are hardly used and at least we have them if needed. I also notice the USA has copied the UK in this respect We dont have the staff for nighingdale do we?it was mentioned here yesterday I think. Italy was overwhelmed and its widely seen they have a much better healthcare system than you.Im guessing it was because certain regions were absolutely battered. It was an amazing achievement that they built them so quickly. Staff have been in short supply but I'm sure they would have prevailed. Unlike some here I'm glad to live in the UK yes there are problems with NHS but you could be in a country that will ignore you if you do not have insurance " The NHS is one of the most precious things we have in this country which is why so many feel so passionate about it. However some people have got v short memories. | |||
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"How prepared should we have been? 18 warehouses permanently full of ppe that may have an expiry date. When should we have been prepared, 3,6, 12, 18 months ago. You mentioned the EU not me, and seeing as you did, can you shed light on the EU procurement club and its success on delivering ppe? Should have, could have, would have doesn't help the present situation We need to deal with the here and now, and apportion blame when everything comes to light after the end of the pandemic. Other countries in Europe haven't had to build hospitals in two weeks but that is because they don't run their NHS on a shoe string like we do. Being prepared for a country as rich as the UK is to have enough PPE at all time and it looks like right from the start some care homes and hospitals didn't have the right stuff. Have you ever heard of logistics. The gvt were telling us that we had enough PPE that the stuff was slow to be delivered. Good job we were not at war. The UK is the 6th largest economy in the world. Having a barve man who is 100 years old walking up and down his garden to raise money for the NHS is admirable but it is also pathetic. Charity are a sign of government's failures. Running out of gowns so quickly is unforgivable. And I bet you that the reason why masks are not compulsory here yet is because this lot haven't got enough yet. Otherwise, it would be the same as in France, Germany etc... compulsory. As for the EU, the idea was to say that this country is always good at finding scapegoats for everything that goes wrong, the EU being one of them. Germany, Italy and Spain have all done the same as the uk, france may have but I didnt bother looking them up but they were shifting patients hundreds of miles by train and plane to less crowded ones, but hey why let simple things like facts get in the way of political hatred when we should all be helping France transferred some patients from one region to another to alleviate the number in the north east if I remember well. And no, Italy, Spain, France or Germany haven't had to build hospitals unless I am mistaken. If I am wrong, I'd love to know where you got this from. Talking about Europe, it was also nice to see that some French patients were transferred in neighbouring countries such as Germany and Luxembourg for example. This hasn't been mentioned much in our post Brexit delirium. Other Euro countries may not have built extra hospitals but their hospitals were overwhelmed. There are several inside films by sky and BBC filming inside Italian and Spanish hospitals. They were in an horrific state with ICU beds all taken patients in beds were all over the place in corridors and converted waiting rooms. Many died because of lack of capacity. I'm glad our nightingale hospitals are hardly used and at least we have them if needed. I also notice the USA has copied the UK in this respect We dont have the staff for nighingdale do we?it was mentioned here yesterday I think. Italy was overwhelmed and its widely seen they have a much better healthcare system than you.Im guessing it was because certain regions were absolutely battered. It was an amazing achievement that they built them so quickly. Staff have been in short supply but I'm sure they would have prevailed. Unlike some here I'm glad to live in the UK yes there are problems with NHS but you could be in a country that will ignore you if you do not have insurance The NHS is one of the most precious things we have in this country which is why so many feel so passionate about it. However some people have got v short memories." The NHS is a jewel to be loved for sure and as said I'm so glad we have it. I'm also pleased that as well as some mistakes this country managed to build the nightingale hospitals. Many people would have laughed at you if you said it could be done before but they did do it. Same with ventilators. We started with short supply now we have more than needed because of our great people. Some need to be more thankful and appreciate this country | |||
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"It's the truth . People don't want the truth.." I do i want the truth. Hollie | |||
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"It's pointless trying to compare country CV death rates as there are just too many variables between countries. One day in the future, when all the data is in and normalised, perhaps we'll have a reasonably accurate picture of how well or not the UK fared compared to others. Until then it's best to take all numbers with a large pinch of salt."
Totally agree... there is a hint that genetic makeup has played a role is how serious some of the effects that COVID-19 is having... more consistent than co-morbidities | |||
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"England is 5 times bigger than Lombardy. Lombardy is 15 times bigger than Greater London. You can't compare England and Lombardy but you can compare London and Lombardy? Really? Do you realise that you are just drawing the line where is more convenient to support your point without any logical reason? I was comparing the two because they have similar populations, which was no less logical than your original statement. What was my original statement? That UK has the 3rd worst death rate per population in the world? Because that is not even my statement the govern itself says so... The original statement that I responded to where you were using incorrect figures to support your argument and yet complaining about others distorting facts. I wrote Italy instead of Lombardy, I didn't use any incorrect figure. A mistake doesn't change the reality. The population density in Italy is 25% smaller than UK, there is no evidence that this would have any positive effect at all. Or that this is enough to nullify the effect of the older population in Italy. The fact is that UK went in lockdown 1 month after Italy started to lockdown cities. They didn't even look for coronavirus until 7th of march. UK death toll is one of the worse and could've been one of the best of they entered lockdown earlier or started testing earlier. Then you can apply gerrymandering to covid19 deaths and make them look better, but this doesn't change the result. " You seem to think a low death toll is of some benefit? Why? The more that are exposed the quicker the country can recover. The important thing is to keep numbers around the levels that the health system can cope with. 85% of deaths are in care homes, the frail or the elderly. This group cannot be helped by the health service. Cause of death........ Birth. | |||
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"England is 5 times bigger than Lombardy. Lombardy is 15 times bigger than Greater London. You can't compare England and Lombardy but you can compare London and Lombardy? Really? Do you realise that you are just drawing the line where is more convenient to support your point without any logical reason? I was comparing the two because they have similar populations, which was no less logical than your original statement. What was my original statement? That UK has the 3rd worst death rate per population in the world? Because that is not even my statement the govern itself says so... The original statement that I responded to where you were using incorrect figures to support your argument and yet complaining about others distorting facts. I wrote Italy instead of Lombardy, I didn't use any incorrect figure. A mistake doesn't change the reality. The population density in Italy is 25% smaller than UK, there is no evidence that this would have any positive effect at all. Or that this is enough to nullify the effect of the older population in Italy. The fact is that UK went in lockdown 1 month after Italy started to lockdown cities. They didn't even look for coronavirus until 7th of march. UK death toll is one of the worse and could've been one of the best of they entered lockdown earlier or started testing earlier. Then you can apply gerrymandering to covid19 deaths and make them look better, but this doesn't change the result. You seem to think a low death toll is of some benefit? Why? The more that are exposed the quicker the country can recover. The important thing is to keep numbers around the levels that the health system can cope with. 85% of deaths are in care homes, the frail or the elderly. This group cannot be helped by the health service. Cause of death........ Birth. " Are you being serious? So you are suggesting that a high death rate is a good thing ?  | |||
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"Read the whole paragraph please. Lol" I did, if a low death rate doesn’t matter then what are you suggesting ? | |||
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"Read the whole paragraph please. Lol I did, if a low death rate doesn’t matter then what are you suggesting ? " It depends what your goals are! If you want to not have anymore deaths, keep everyone in strict lockdown until a vaccine can be invented, tested and produced (from home I assume). Maybe 12 months (usually 8yrs) by which time the country will be bankrupt and there won't be an health service for anyone. Is that the goal.... zero deaths? Lol. Or is it to get over this and get the country moving again and paying for the health service? | |||
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"How the outside world sees us: https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/biggest-failure-in-a-generation-where-did-britain-go-wrong-20200428-p54o2d.html "Despite the recent surge, those early delays mean Britain has conducted just 10.13 tests per 1000 people, the lowest rate in western Europe. Italy's rate is 32.73, Ireland's is 31 and Germany's is 30.4. Australia's testing effort has been double the relative size of Britain's, despite having a far less serious outbreak. And for all the criticism of the US response to the crisis, the rate of testing there never fell below the rate in Britain in April."" Those spin drs are going to earn their crust this year. | |||
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"Those spin drs are going to earn their crust this year." They are going to have to start today. This morning Dr Jenny Harries admitted that mass testing was stopped in early March because we didn't have the capacity to continue doing it. Shortly after that, responding to a question from Labour MP and front line doctor, Dr Rosena Allin-Khan about the lack of testing, he replied by telling her to "watch her tone". https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1257651679773810688 | |||
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"Those spin drs are going to earn their crust this year. They are going to have to start today. This morning Dr Jenny Harries admitted that mass testing was stopped in early March because we didn't have the capacity to continue doing it. Shortly after that, responding to a question from Labour MP and front line doctor, Dr Rosena Allin-Khan about the lack of testing, he replied by telling her to "watch her tone". https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1257651679773810688" Should have a sweep on who they throw under the bus 1st. | |||
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"How the outside world sees us: https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/biggest-failure-in-a-generation-where-did-britain-go-wrong-20200428-p54o2d.html "Despite the recent surge, those early delays mean Britain has conducted just 10.13 tests per 1000 people, the lowest rate in western Europe. Italy's rate is 32.73, Ireland's is 31 and Germany's is 30.4. Australia's testing effort has been double the relative size of Britain's, despite having a far less serious outbreak. And for all the criticism of the US response to the crisis, the rate of testing there never fell below the rate in Britain in April." Those spin drs are going to earn their crust this year." Indeed they are I wonder if Mr A.Campbell is still available lol | |||
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"Have we now got the worst death rate in Europe? Just saw a piece in the guardian." Yes, new ONS data released this morning. 32,000+ | |||
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"Have we now got the worst death rate in Europe? Just saw a piece in the guardian. Yes, new ONS data released this morning. 32,000+"  | |||
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"Have we now got the worst death rate in Europe? Just saw a piece in the guardian. Yes, new ONS data released this morning. 32,000+" It's interesting what the data is saying about the increases in deaths, that not all within that increase are covid positive or were likely tested but there is the covid impact or effect given the numbers presenting at hospital have dropped massively.. I read the figures as an extra 42,500 approximate over the five weeks compared with the previous five years data for the same period..? | |||
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"Have we now got the worst death rate in Europe? Just saw a piece in the guardian. Yes, new ONS data released this morning. 32,000+" So this is one of those "bury bad news'days? Surprised they havent announced a royal wedding or something. | |||
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"Read the whole paragraph please. Lol I did, if a low death rate doesn’t matter then what are you suggesting ? It depends what your goals are! If you want to not have anymore deaths, keep everyone in strict lockdown until a vaccine can be invented, tested and produced (from home I assume). Maybe 12 months (usually 8yrs) by which time the country will be bankrupt and there won't be an health service for anyone. Is that the goal.... zero deaths? Lol. Or is it to get over this and get the country moving again and paying for the health service? " A vaccine won’t take 8 years. Is it accept that the UK having the second highest death rate in the World? Zero deaths is unrealistic but is it fair to say they the current death rate is unacceptable? We had a head start on countries like Italy & Spain , why haven’t we managed to cope better than they have ? | |||
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"There's a lot of talk about not being able to make strict comparisons because of how figures are gathered. Fair enough. That said, over 32,000 people in the UK are definitely dead, with Covid 19 being mentioned on their death certificates. If any of those deaths was preventable, then our Government has a case to answer." You would hope so | |||
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"Read the whole paragraph please. Lol I did, if a low death rate doesn’t matter then what are you suggesting ? It depends what your goals are! If you want to not have anymore deaths, keep everyone in strict lockdown until a vaccine can be invented, tested and produced (from home I assume). Maybe 12 months (usually 8yrs) by which time the country will be bankrupt and there won't be an health service for anyone. Is that the goal.... zero deaths? Lol. Or is it to get over this and get the country moving again and paying for the health service? A vaccine won’t take 8 years. Is it accept that the UK having the second highest death rate in the World? Zero deaths is unrealistic but is it fair to say they the current death rate is unacceptable? We had a head start on countries like Italy & Spain , why haven’t we managed to cope better than they have ? " Italy have admitted that their figures are hugely understated. See my post above. | |||
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"Have we now got the worst death rate in Europe? Just saw a piece in the guardian. Yes, new ONS data released this morning. 32,000+" ONS figures show 27325 up to 24 April | |||
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"Read the whole paragraph please. Lol I did, if a low death rate doesn’t matter then what are you suggesting ? It depends what your goals are! If you want to not have anymore deaths, keep everyone in strict lockdown until a vaccine can be invented, tested and produced (from home I assume). Maybe 12 months (usually 8yrs) by which time the country will be bankrupt and there won't be an health service for anyone. Is that the goal.... zero deaths? Lol. Or is it to get over this and get the country moving again and paying for the health service? A vaccine won’t take 8 years. Is it accept that the UK having the second highest death rate in the World? Zero deaths is unrealistic but is it fair to say they the current death rate is unacceptable? We had a head start on countries like Italy & Spain , why haven’t we managed to cope better than they have ? Italy have admitted that their figures are hugely understated. See my post above." Ignore the official reports. Looks just at excess deaths. UK is worse than Italy anyway. Italy numbers, at the end of March, were lower than the UK numbers on the 17th of April. Those dates are roughly the peaks for both countries. After the peak UK started going down much slower. But I guess that you are about to argue that if you compare two specific post codes in UK and Italy, UK will be better. And those postcodes are the only relevant. | |||
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"Have we now got the worst death rate in Europe? Just saw a piece in the guardian. Yes, new ONS data released this morning. 32,000+ ONS figures show 27325 up to 24 April" That is for England, not UK. | |||
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"Read the whole paragraph please. Lol I did, if a low death rate doesn’t matter then what are you suggesting ? It depends what your goals are! If you want to not have anymore deaths, keep everyone in strict lockdown until a vaccine can be invented, tested and produced (from home I assume). Maybe 12 months (usually 8yrs) by which time the country will be bankrupt and there won't be an health service for anyone. Is that the goal.... zero deaths? Lol. Or is it to get over this and get the country moving again and paying for the health service? A vaccine won’t take 8 years. Is it accept that the UK having the second highest death rate in the World? Zero deaths is unrealistic but is it fair to say they the current death rate is unacceptable? We had a head start on countries like Italy & Spain , why haven’t we managed to cope better than they have ? Italy have admitted that their figures are hugely understated. See my post above. Ignore the official reports. Looks just at excess deaths. UK is worse than Italy anyway. Italy numbers, at the end of March, were lower than the UK numbers on the 17th of April. Those dates are roughly the peaks for both countries. After the peak UK started going down much slower. But I guess that you are about to argue that if you compare two specific post codes in UK and Italy, UK will be better. And those postcodes are the only relevant." Read the fucking article and you may just understand, although given your previous that’s not a given | |||
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"Read the whole paragraph please. Lol I did, if a low death rate doesn’t matter then what are you suggesting ? It depends what your goals are! If you want to not have anymore deaths, keep everyone in strict lockdown until a vaccine can be invented, tested and produced (from home I assume). Maybe 12 months (usually 8yrs) by which time the country will be bankrupt and there won't be an health service for anyone. Is that the goal.... zero deaths? Lol. Or is it to get over this and get the country moving again and paying for the health service? A vaccine won’t take 8 years. Is it accept that the UK having the second highest death rate in the World? Zero deaths is unrealistic but is it fair to say they the current death rate is unacceptable? We had a head start on countries like Italy & Spain , why haven’t we managed to cope better than they have ? Italy have admitted that their figures are hugely understated. See my post above. Ignore the official reports. Looks just at excess deaths. UK is worse than Italy anyway. Italy numbers, at the end of March, were lower than the UK numbers on the 17th of April. Those dates are roughly the peaks for both countries. After the peak UK started going down much slower. But I guess that you are about to argue that if you compare two specific post codes in UK and Italy, UK will be better. And those postcodes are the only relevant. Read the fucking article and you may just understand, although given your previous that’s not a given" | |||
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"Honestly cant understand why anyone of sane mind would or could defend our government response on COVID-19. I have heard it said that it’s because they bought so far into their Brexit position, cognitive dissonance prevents them seeing clearly on COVID-19 the brain simply cannot accept Boris could be so right on one thing, and so wrong on something else " "I have heard it said" means that it's not true! Lolx | |||
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