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"It sells papers, it is their business!" Whilst I agree with your point in general.... in the case of yesterday’s Times the uk gov took to posting a ‘formal’ response in order to rebuff the Times news article. A rare and unusual event which the Times can take credit for. The important aspect of the gov response is that it ‘allegedly’ says the Times (the Tories no 1 fan newspaper) is wrong and we (the Tory government) are the only ones that are right ...... discuss. | |||
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"Calling the Times liars will only serve to have the paper publish more.. Cummings will be sacking people again,but at what level.. " Cummings v Murdoch Crackpot v despot | |||
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"If it was a none story I would have thought the government would have ignored it, they probably would have if it was the mirror or the guardian but this is a tory paper and it will not sit well with some of their base.. They've acted how the paper want them to and that will allow the paper to publish more leaks.. Fact is they are a bit lightweight without Boris at the helm, after the brexit cull there's some experienced people without the baggage and credibility that Patel, Williamson and Hove have but because they were remain or soft Brexiteers they are not in favour.. The story has legs.. " Agree, the response defended some specifics without damaging the entire story. We sent China some PPE, they sent some back. Ok nice clarification. We're still running out... Doesn't mention testing or why germany can do 4x more tests than us... | |||
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"What a bunch of cynics no help to anyone" Good use of irony Emma, still intending to spit on people? | |||
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"What a bunch of cynics no help to anyone" Yeah let's pat the government on the back for delivering the 5th highest death toll to the 21st most populous nation. Way to go Boris, playing a blinder mate  | |||
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"What a bunch of cynics no help to anyone" Perhaps given the infection rate is still high a degree of cynical appraisal of just how this is being handled might be an idea.. | |||
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"Perfectly happy with good investigative journalism and criticising when it is warranted, just don't lie and make up false claims and then expect to get away with it." You were present at all of those meetings presumably? | |||
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" You were present at all of those meetings presumably?" Were you? | |||
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" You were present at all of those meetings presumably? Were you?" Nope. But I'm not claiming they were lies. | |||
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"When the likes of the Mail and The Times start turning, then it may be they have realised the fact that Boris is a bloviating, chancer who thinks winging it and aping Churchill will cut it. He has been found out. Was always gonna happen." Of course it wouldn't have anything to do with needing to sell papers and scrabble around for online subscriptions as advertising revenue plummets and operating costs decimate their bottom line and reserves.... | |||
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" Nope. But I'm not claiming they were lies. " But I guess you are claiming that the Times story is a truth? | |||
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" Nope. But I'm not claiming they were lies. But I guess you are claiming that the Times story is a truth?" Where did I say it was The truth? | |||
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" Where did I say it was The truth?" So. You believe it's a lie. | |||
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"When the likes of the Mail and The Times start turning, then it may be they have realised the fact that Boris is a bloviating, chancer who thinks winging it and aping Churchill will cut it. He has been found out. Was always gonna happen. Of course it wouldn't have anything to do with needing to sell papers and scrabble around for online subscriptions as advertising revenue plummets and operating costs decimate their bottom line and reserves...." The two most loyal right wing papers turning on their own ti sell a few more copies. I don't think so. | |||
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"When the likes of the Mail and The Times start turning, then it may be they have realised the fact that Boris is a bloviating, chancer who thinks winging it and aping Churchill will cut it. He has been found out. Was always gonna happen. Of course it wouldn't have anything to do with needing to sell papers and scrabble around for online subscriptions as advertising revenue plummets and operating costs decimate their bottom line and reserves...." His diary doesn't lie though... | |||
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" The two most loyal right wing papers turning on their own ti sell a few more copies. I don't think so." Then you believe it's a truth. The Times isn't a Tory Newspaper by the way - It's read by 40% Tory voters. But is emphatically not a Tory Government supporting newspaper. | |||
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" Where did I say it was The truth? So. You believe it's a lie. " Who knows? There are probally elements of truth in both. I think without a shadow of a doubt there were huge mistakes made..and as much as I dislike Johnson there were others just as culpable. However I think there is probally an ulterior motive to the times story. | |||
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" The two most loyal right wing papers turning on their own ti sell a few more copies. I don't think so. Then you believe it's a truth. The Times isn't a Tory Newspaper by the way - It's read by 40% Tory voters. But is emphatically not a Tory Government supporting newspaper." Its owned by rupert Murdoch. | |||
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" You were present at all of those meetings presumably? Were you? Nope. But I'm not claiming they were lies. " Not my findings, however here's an example of the lies, false claims - call them what you will: "Sunday Times reported immunologist Peter Openshaw "would have recommended increasing the threat to high" at a key meeting" But Openshaw has now denied this, tweeting last night: "I wasn't there so can't say if I would have dissented if I'd been there to hear the arguments" | |||
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"Well I'm not a natural Tory but I really get the feeling that if Corbyn was in he would have nationalised the railways just so that more people could be infected with public finances. "This government nationalised the east coast mainline about two weeks after the election. | |||
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" Where did I say it was The truth? So. You believe it's a lie. Who knows? There are probally elements of truth in both. I think without a shadow of a doubt there were huge mistakes made..and as much as I dislike Johnson there were others just as culpable. However I think there is probally an ulterior motive to the times story." See this is my whole point about the way people go off at the deep end with this story and that - it's always coloured by our own personal set of partisan beliefs. To pretend that a newspaper always gets it right it not the proof we've had in the western world since newspapers came about . . . remember that they are the paragons of justice and light. To pretend a government of the day is bound in the same glorious repute is a falsehood too. If you don't like gove or boris it doesn't mean they are always lying - Just because the Times has a good reputation doesn't mean it always prints the truth. It's really always someplace between. | |||
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" Where did I say it was The truth? So. You believe it's a lie. Who knows? There are probally elements of truth in both. I think without a shadow of a doubt there were huge mistakes made..and as much as I dislike Johnson there were others just as culpable. However I think there is probally an ulterior motive to the times story. See this is my whole point about the way people go off at the deep end with this story and that - it's always coloured by our own personal set of partisan beliefs. To pretend that a newspaper always gets it right it not the proof we've had in the western world since newspapers came about . . . remember that they are the paragons of justice and light. To pretend a government of the day is bound in the same glorious repute is a falsehood too. If you don't like gove or boris it doesn't mean they are always lying - Just because the Times has a good reputation doesn't mean it always prints the truth. It's really always someplace between. " Agree with this. Problem is, Boris has form as long as your arm at being pretty damn useless... | |||
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" You were present at all of those meetings presumably? Were you? Nope. But I'm not claiming they were lies. Not my findings, however here's an example of the lies, false claims - call them what you will: "Sunday Times reported immunologist Peter Openshaw "would have recommended increasing the threat to high" at a key meeting" But Openshaw has now denied this, tweeting last night: "I wasn't there so can't say if I would have dissented if I'd been there to hear the arguments"" Isnt that a bit like someone getting of a murder case on a technicality? There are huge issues the response doesnt even touch. And the fact they have issued such a response speaks volumes. | |||
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" Where did I say it was The truth? So. You believe it's a lie. Who knows? There are probally elements of truth in both. I think without a shadow of a doubt there were huge mistakes made..and as much as I dislike Johnson there were others just as culpable. However I think there is probally an ulterior motive to the times story. See this is my whole point about the way people go off at the deep end with this story and that - it's always coloured by our own personal set of partisan beliefs. To pretend that a newspaper always gets it right it not the proof we've had in the western world since newspapers came about . . . remember that they are the paragons of justice and light. To pretend a government of the day is bound in the same glorious repute is a falsehood too. If you don't like gove or boris it doesn't mean they are always lying - Just because the Times has a good reputation doesn't mean it always prints the truth. It's really always someplace between. " The smallest local Council is supposed to consider and prepare for disasters and crises. In this case, the national government did not prepare, nor did it take repeated warnings seriously. Clearly this was down to an absence and failure of leadership. None of the above is party political. Now, these initial mistakes are being compounded by the failure to produce tests and to get hold of PPE equipment. Again, not being partisan. Our Prime Minister behaved recklessly and caught the virus we are told. He’s not been seen since. So we are without a leader. I’m not interested in how Labour would have done it. We need a government which is going to get us out of lockdown as soon as possible. Have we got that? | |||
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"It appears the Sunday Times wrote nothing new as most people voted Johnson in knowing he's lazy, incompetent, ignores warnings & experts. And today, also know his wasted time on Brexit and ignored NHS needs. Our challenge as a nation is to determine what does an alternative and acceptable government structure look like and next, what can we do about achieving it? " According to the surveys he is more popular than ever. | |||
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"It appears the Sunday Times wrote nothing new as most people voted Johnson in knowing he's lazy, incompetent, ignores warnings & experts. And today, also know his wasted time on Brexit and ignored NHS needs. Our challenge as a nation is to determine what does an alternative and acceptable government structure look like and next, what can we do about achieving it? According to the surveys he is more popular than ever." I’ll take your challenge but only if you show me the evidence? | |||
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"It appears the Sunday Times wrote nothing new as most people voted Johnson in knowing he's lazy, incompetent, ignores warnings & experts. And today, also know his wasted time on Brexit and ignored NHS needs. Our challenge as a nation is to determine what does an alternative and acceptable government structure look like and next, what can we do about achieving it? According to the surveys he is more popular than ever. I’ll take your challenge but only if you show me the evidence?" A poll by Redfield and Wilton apparently.nearly 60%. Dunno who they ask like. | |||
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"The press lie. Politicians lie. The press sometimes tell the truth. So I guess the balance of probability lies with the press. But I wouldn't want to put money on it. " Some politicians lie more than others. I honestly dont think integrity comes into it. | |||
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" Some politicians lie more than others." Like one who's been sacked from 3 major jobs for lying? | |||
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" Some politicians lie more than others. Like one who's been sacked from 3 major jobs for lying? " No idea who you could be referring too. 
But it hadn't done him much harm has it?
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"Who cares; we just have to get through this as best we can, recriminations can happen then; at the moment this sort of stuff is helping no one ! keep yourself and your loved ones safe and if we all do that properly then we will ge through it. the liars / fakers and scare mongerers can be dealt with then !" "we just have to get through this as best we can". people keep trotting this line out. How are we supposed to do that if we're not scrutinising the government and their action, lack of action, policy decisions etc. Should we just let them do whatever they feel like no matter how many people per day are dying. At what point would you suggest speaking up? | |||
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" Some politicians lie more than others. Like one who's been sacked from 3 major jobs for lying? No idea who you could be referring too.
But it hadn't done him much harm has it?
"No unfortunately. I still find it astonishing that a serial liar, mysoginist, racist etc managed to blag his way into his current job. Sadly not all of his victims will be people who voted for him. | |||
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"Who cares; we just have to get through this as best we can, recriminations can happen then; at the moment this sort of stuff is helping no one ! keep yourself and your loved ones safe and if we all do that properly then we will ge through it. the liars / fakers and scare mongerers can be dealt with then ! "we just have to get through this as best we can". people keep trotting this line out. How are we supposed to do that if we're not scrutinising the government and their action, lack of action, policy decisions etc. Should we just let them do whatever they feel like no matter how many people per day are dying. At what point would you suggest speaking up?" This. Johnson and his selected government's actions are literally the difference between life and death in the country right now. | |||
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" Some politicians lie more than others. Like one who's been sacked from 3 major jobs for lying? No idea who you could be referring too.
But it hadn't done him much harm has it?
No unfortunately. I still find it astonishing that a serial liar, mysoginist, racist etc managed to blag his way into his current job. Sadly not all of his victims will be people who voted for him. "You can fool some people etc Just repeat a few simple slogans,dont answer any questions and blame someone eise when things go tits up. Works a treat. | |||
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" "we just have to get through this as best we can". people keep trotting this line out. How are we supposed to do that if we're not scrutinising the government and their action, lack of action, policy decisions etc. Should we just let them do whatever they feel like no matter how many people per day are dying. At what point would you suggest speaking up?" I think that you are only scrutinizing the Government if you are writing to your MP - Using FOI to demand answers - Using a recognised Political Medium to pose and challenge. FAB is none of those.  | |||
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"Well I'm not a natural Tory but I really get the feeling that if Corbyn was in he would have nationalised the railways just so that more people could be infected with public finances. "You truly know someone has no rebuttal when they resort to what aboutery. | |||
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"I guess the more interesting point is why the fuck Boris is still getting 60per cent positive approval ratings. I am by no means comparing him to hitler but in times of crisis the general mass of humanity does have a taste for bullish leaders who take the difficult decisions for them whether right or woefully inadedaquate - dont forget that hitler was also very good at being seen in positive public relations scenarios "You make an interesting point, although I always struggle with the Hitler comparison in these things. Anyway, it is a trend that support for leaders and institutions tend to increase during times of crisis, regardless of whether their leaders are actually making the right decision or not. Popularity during a crisis may therefore not be a reliable indicator of how well a political leader is performing. That said unpopularity (e.g. Corbyn at last election) is an almost dead cert for poor performance. | |||
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"I guess the more interesting point is why the fuck Boris is still getting 60per cent positive approval ratings. I am by no means comparing him to hitler but in times of crisis the general mass of humanity does have a taste for bullish leaders who take the difficult decisions for them whether right or woefully inadedaquate - dont forget that hitler was also very good at being seen in positive public relations scenarios "The media play a big part..he has got a carefully cultivated image. He also garnered a lot of sympathy when he caught it. Remains to be seen how much that article done..I'm guessing not much. | |||
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" "we just have to get through this as best we can". people keep trotting this line out. How are we supposed to do that if we're not scrutinising the government and their action, lack of action, policy decisions etc. Should we just let them do whatever they feel like no matter how many people per day are dying. At what point would you suggest speaking up? I think that you are only scrutinizing the Government if you are writing to your MP - Using FOI to demand answers - Using a recognised Political Medium to pose and challenge. FAB is none of those. "Indeed. My MP is not a Tory though. How is an FOI going to help to scrutinise them? However there are many ways to do this. Political activism includes a wide rang of activities. Anyway, your post hasn't convinced me that we shouldn't be asking questions of the governments performance. Oh and most importantly though. I never, ever vote Tory. | |||
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"I guess the more interesting point is why the fuck Boris is still getting 60per cent positive approval ratings. I am by no means comparing him to hitler but in times of crisis the general mass of humanity does have a taste for bullish leaders who take the difficult decisions for them whether right or woefully inadedaquate - dont forget that hitler was also very good at being seen in positive public relations scenarios "He hasn't taken difficult decisions, he's actually been a pussy. A difficult decision would be to introduce some moderate social distancing and make every cunt use an app for contact tracing and report for a test whenever told to. He got the willies after a half baked paper criticised him and went for the knee jerk reaction that took the economy down. | |||
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Indeed. My MP is not a Tory though. How is an FOI going to help to scrutinise them? However there are many ways to do this. Political activism includes a wide rang of activities.
Anyway, your post hasn't convinced me that we shouldn't be asking questions of the governments performance.
Oh and most importantly though. I never, ever vote Tory."FOI allows you to see government data - then people can argue from a point of fact not Newspaper or Hyperbole or . . . I'm not saying you should stop asking questions - I'm saying FAB isn't the place to get them answered. | |||
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" FOI allows you to see government data - then people can argue from a point of fact not Newspaper or Hyperbole or . . . I'm not saying you should stop asking questions - I'm saying FAB isn't the place to get them answered." Are you suggesting that there's no MPs here? | |||
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"Well I'm not a natural Tory but I really get the feeling that if Corbyn was in he would have nationalised the railways just so that more people could be infected with public finances.
You truly know someone has no rebuttal when they resort to what aboutery."Then catch up with me in lots of other threads. | |||
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" Are you suggesting that there's no MPs here? "At a time like this, if there are we really do deserve what we voted for.  | |||
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Indeed. My MP is not a Tory though. How is an FOI going to help to scrutinise them? However there are many ways to do this. Political activism includes a wide rang of activities.
Anyway, your post hasn't convinced me that we shouldn't be asking questions of the governments performance.
Oh and most importantly though. I never, ever vote Tory.
FOI allows you to see government data - then people can argue from a point of fact not Newspaper or Hyperbole or . . .
I'm not saying you should stop asking questions - I'm saying FAB isn't the place to get them answered."For example, the chap who took Boris to court for "the bus" thing, recently reported he was going to (or maybe he actually did, i'm not 100% sure) put in a FOI request to St Thomas Hospital to check if the PM was admitted/treated at the hospital...  | |||
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"I guess the more interesting point is why the fuck Boris is still getting 60per cent positive approval ratings. I am by no means comparing him to hitler but in times of crisis the general mass of humanity does have a taste for bullish leaders who take the difficult decisions for them whether right or woefully inadedaquate - dont forget that hitler was also very good at being seen in positive public relations scenarios "he might "personally" have a 60% approval rating... because people have now seen the alternatives in raab/patel/gove/hancock/jenrick/sharma and williamson all take pressers and think "shit!" but i be if you asked people the approval of how they have handled all this.... not as much as that!!! do who are we suppose to trust.. the politicans or the scientists... because if we all believe the scientists move, than at this point you have to let them lead.... and maybe thats the one that maybe johnson will now do now he has been on the grim end of stark reality! | |||
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" he might "personally" have a 60% approval rating... because people have now seen the alternatives in raab/patel/gove/hancock/jenrick/sharma and williamson all take pressers and think "shit!" but i be if you asked people the approval of how they have handled all this.... not as much as that!!! do who are we suppose to trust.. the politicans or the scientists... because if we all believe the scientists move, than at this point you have to let them lead.... and maybe thats the one that maybe johnson will now do now he has been on the grim end of stark reality!" From Yougov . . . The latest wave of our coronavirus tracker shows a dramatic increase in Government approval, with even a majority of Labour voters thinking they are doing a good job After another week of difficult Government decisions, including having to mandate on Monday that the public follow social distancing guidelines, the latest wave of our weekly tracker poll shows the public are still overwhelmingly supportive. | |||
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"I guess the more interesting point is why the fuck Boris is still getting 60per cent positive approval ratings. I am by no means comparing him to hitler but in times of crisis the general mass of humanity does have a taste for bullish leaders who take the difficult decisions for them whether right or woefully inadedaquate - dont forget that hitler was also very good at being seen in positive public relations scenarios
he might "personally" have a 60% approval rating... because people have now seen the alternatives in raab/patel/gove/hancock/jenrick/sharma and williamson all take pressers and think "shit!"
but i be if you asked people the approval of how they have handled all this.... not as much as that!!!
do who are we suppose to trust.. the politicans or the scientists... because if we all believe the scientists move, than at this point you have to let them lead.... and maybe thats the one that maybe johnson will now do now he has been on the grim end of stark reality!"It's government approval on coronavirus, not him personally. Much lower in london by the way. The scientists don't agree with each other, nor is this a one disciple problem. Epidemiologists don't know anything about economics and vice versa. | |||
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Indeed. My MP is not a Tory though. How is an FOI going to help to scrutinise them? However there are many ways to do this. Political activism includes a wide rang of activities.
Anyway, your post hasn't convinced me that we shouldn't be asking questions of the governments performance.
Oh and most importantly though. I never, ever vote Tory.
FOI allows you to see government data - then people can argue from a point of fact not Newspaper or Hyperbole or . . .
I'm not saying you should stop asking questions - I'm saying FAB isn't the place to get them answered.
For example, the chap who took Boris to court for "the bus" thing, recently reported he was going to (or maybe he actually did, i'm not 100% sure) put in a FOI request to St Thomas Hospital to check if the PM was admitted/treated at the hospital...
""The bus thing'=big fuck of lie. There were a few conspiracy floating around at the time. | |||
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"The press lie. Politicians lie. The press sometimes tell the truth. So I guess the balance of probability lies with the press. But I wouldn't want to put money on it. " There's always an agenda either with the press or politicians. I gave up on the national's over 30 years ago and haven't bought one since. Although it's often criticised for now I'll stick with the B.B.C for my news for now and hope it remains unbiased? Above all. Be kind to others is my philosophy to life. Good luck all  | |||
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" he might "personally" have a 60% approval rating... because people have now seen the alternatives in raab/patel/gove/hancock/jenrick/sharma and williamson all take pressers and think "shit!" but i be if you asked people the approval of how they have handled all this.... not as much as that!!! do who are we suppose to trust.. the politicans or the scientists... because if we all believe the scientists move, than at this point you have to let them lead.... and maybe thats the one that maybe johnson will now do now he has been on the grim end of stark reality! From Yougov . . . The latest wave of our coronavirus tracker shows a dramatic increase in Government approval, with even a majority of Labour voters thinking they are doing a good job After another week of difficult Government decisions, including having to mandate on Monday that the public follow social distancing guidelines, the latest wave of our weekly tracker poll shows the public are still overwhelmingly supportive. " The red wall are unlikely to admit they were wrong. | |||
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Indeed. My MP is not a Tory though. How is an FOI going to help to scrutinise them? However there are many ways to do this. Political activism includes a wide rang of activities.
Anyway, your post hasn't convinced me that we shouldn't be asking questions of the governments performance.
Oh and most importantly though. I never, ever vote Tory.
FOI allows you to see government data - then people can argue from a point of fact not Newspaper or Hyperbole or . . .
I'm not saying you should stop asking questions - I'm saying FAB isn't the place to get them answered."Sure. But I'm not asking any questions here on fab. I'm just picking up on people saying we should just sit here and shut up. | |||
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"I'm not surprised that people support the govern. This happens almost always during time of crisis. People afraid for the future pin their hopes on other people in a position to solve the situation. After the crisis usually the consensus drops dramatically. Everyone will blame Boris for everything and he will be probably abandoned by its own party. " 
I would agree, if you look right across the globe right now virtually every president/PM's popularity has increased despite misgivings on how things are being handled.
In times of crisis people do need someone to cling to, also you virtually never see any of the opposition political parties as all the daily briefings and most TV interviews are conducted by leading members of Govt.
However history also shows us that we the public can be quite fickle, once the dust has settled and any mistakes the Govt made are highlighted during enquiries then people's opinions can change very quickly. | |||
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