FabSwingers.com forum: Died WITH not OF

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

It appears that we now have a distinction. If a person with an underlying condition dies whilst testing positive for COVID-19 it is the underlying condition that kills them not the virus.

How do people feel about this?

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By *abs..Woman
over a year ago

Every year thousands of people die of various things, particularly in winter. They may die with COVID-19 but it can’t always be the cause of death otherwise without it it would mean no deaths and we know that isn’t correct.

For instance, in Italy how many elderly people die every winter compared to now? Would they have died anyway even if coronavirus hadn’t been around?

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By *adetMan
over a year ago

South of Ipswich

Presumably all the people that die will require a post mortem and they will decide on the actual cause of death

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Presumably all the people that die will require a post mortem and they will decide on the actual cause of death"

I believe its the case a virus does not cause death but do cause fatal conditions.

So Flu causes Pnuemonia.

I do not know this for certain and would be grateful for a better understanding of how virus acts in this regard.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Presumably all the people that die will require a post mortem and they will decide on the actual cause of death"

If someone is fighting for their life with say for example emphysema, and then gets COVID-19 and passes away. Did they die of COVID-19 or emphysema?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Presumably all the people that die will require a post mortem and they will decide on the actual cause of death

I believe its the case a virus does not cause death but do cause fatal conditions.

So Flu causes Pnuemonia.

I do not know this for certain and would be grateful for a better understanding of how virus acts in this regard. "

Another better example might be - HIV causes AIDs

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By *heltenhamBiGuyMan
over a year ago

Cheltenham

"Presumably all the people that die will require a post mortem and they will decide on the actual cause of death

If someone is fighting for their life with say for example emphysema, and then gets COVID-19 and passes away. Did they die of COVID-19 or emphysema?"

The death certificate would state both

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

If a person with a severe nut allergy dies after accidentally eating nuts, what is the cause of death? The nuts or the nut allergy?

Lots of people eat nuts and don't die.

But many people with nut allergies live long lives.

So surely it is a combination of the two conditions that is the cause of death?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Presumably all the people that die will require a post mortem and they will decide on the actual cause of death

If someone is fighting for their life with say for example emphysema, and then gets COVID-19 and passes away. Did they die of COVID-19 or emphysema?

The death certificate would state both"

It terms of the OP question would the person be said to have died OF Emphysema and Covid-19?

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By *adetMan
over a year ago

South of Ipswich

"Presumably all the people that die will require a post mortem and they will decide on the actual cause of death

I believe its the case a virus does not cause death but do cause fatal conditions.

So Flu causes Pnuemonia.

I do not know this for certain and would be grateful for a better understanding of how virus acts in this regard.

Another better example might be - HIV causes AIDs"

Ah I see what you mean. So I guess they would have to decide if covid19 was the cause of the illness that led to their death

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Presumably all the people that die will require a post mortem and they will decide on the actual cause of death

I believe its the case a virus does not cause death but do cause fatal conditions.

So Flu causes Pnuemonia.

I do not know this for certain and would be grateful for a better understanding of how virus acts in this regard.

Another better example might be - HIV causes AIDs"

Does anyone actually die of AIDS or just the lack of an immune system to fight something else?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I had a virus in January.

Symptoms: Dry cough, shortage of breath, temperature. I was then diagnosed with pneumonia. I recovered and returned to work. Wasnt tested so don't know.

Testing the wrong people.

They are testing very sick people in hospital....don't need to as can't treat the virus....can help with symptoms and it dont matter one jot how you got the symptoms...still need to treat them. DO NOT test patients.

Test staff....yes

Test random, general public to understand how it spreads.... don't waste them on patients!!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Presumably all the people that die will require a post mortem and they will decide on the actual cause of death

If someone is fighting for their life with say for example emphysema, and then gets COVID-19 and passes away. Did they die of COVID-19 or emphysema?

The death certificate would state both

It terms of the OP question would the person be said to have died OF Emphysema and Covid-19?"

People are starting to question the COVID-19 stats saying many of those deceased are people who would have died anyway from something else.

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By *adetMan
over a year ago

South of Ipswich

"Presumably all the people that die will require a post mortem and they will decide on the actual cause of death

If someone is fighting for their life with say for example emphysema, and then gets COVID-19 and passes away. Did they die of COVID-19 or emphysema?"

I'm not sure to be honest

I've noticed that the news sometimes reports the person dying from c19 and others say with c19

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By *L RogueMan
over a year ago

London

"It appears that we now have a distinction. If a person with an underlying condition dies whilst testing positive for COVID-19 it is the underlying condition that kills them not the virus.

How do people feel about this?"

People obsess with numbers. Way I see it, if the government can offset deaths relating to other issues instead of COVID-19, they can appear to have had a handle on the situation.

After the dust settles, there will be an inquests from all sides: the media, the opposition and the people.

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

I've noticed the distinction between "with" and "of" in the news recently.

My father has prostate cancer and has been told he'll die with it not of it. I understand the distinction there but I wonder if a more appropriate term with covid 19 might be "died of (eg) pneumonia , hastened by covid 19" but I'm not medically qualified

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I had a virus in January.

Symptoms: Dry cough, shortage of breath, temperature. I was then diagnosed with pneumonia. I recovered and returned to work. Wasnt tested so don't know.

Testing the wrong people.

Test staff....yes

Test random, general public to understand how it spreads.... don't waste them on patients!!"

Would it not make sense to test patients so that people who they have come in contact with can in turn be tested before they pass the infection on?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

AIDs Accquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome is the name given for a number of infections each of which can cause fatality.

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By *ottielayWoman
over a year ago

by the bay

"Presumably all the people that die will require a post mortem and they will decide on the actual cause of death

If someone is fighting for their life with say for example emphysema, and then gets COVID-19 and passes away. Did they die of COVID-19 or emphysema?

I'm not sure to be honest

I've noticed that the news sometimes reports the person dying from c19 and others say with c19 "

The underlying condition is accelerated/intensified with the virus

So it should be with not from

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"It appears that we now have a distinction. If a person with an underlying condition dies whilst testing positive for COVID-19 it is the underlying condition that kills them not the virus.

How do people feel about this?

People obsess with numbers. Way I see it, if the government can offset deaths relating to other issues instead of COVID-19, they can appear to have had a handle on the situation.

After the dust settles, there will be an inquests from all sides: the media, the opposition and the people."

Whilst there has been a big concern about panic caused by misinformation about COVID-19, I personally feel that more damage has been done by complacency due to understated reports of severity.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The OP question between OF and WITH is bang on for what we are currently living through.

The media have not been consistent on this important point and we are in turn short-cutting our understanding.

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By *eeBee67Man
over a year ago

Masked and Distant

News can be a bit sneaky, and the government also mention the deaths the same way...." ..... sadly died after being diagnosed with Covid-19"

Dont think you will find any if them reporting figures as "...died of Covid-19"

I know its serious, but I am of the opinion all the restrictions are in place to reduce the load on the NHS.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"AIDs Accquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome is the name given for a number of infections each of which can cause fatality.

No its not. AIDS is a collection of signs and symptoms and also is defined by a specific level of CD4+ T cells. The cause of the specific level of CD4+ T cells is HIV infection. HIV infection does necessarily lead to AIDS and in the UK, AIDS is now almost non existent due to the widespread use of antiretroviral drugs. HIV/AIDS has bugger all to do with Covid-19, there is nothing even remotely similar, related or connected with the two conditions.

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By *abs..Woman
over a year ago

"News can be a bit sneaky, and the government also mention the deaths the same way...." ..... sadly died after being diagnosed with Covid-19"

Dont think you will find any if them reporting figures as "...died of Covid-19"

I know its serious, but I am of the opinion all the restrictions are in place to reduce the load on the NHS."

That is what they have said. Slow things right down to take the pressure off the NHS.

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By *adetMan
over a year ago

South of Ipswich

"Presumably all the people that die will require a post mortem and they will decide on the actual cause of death

If someone is fighting for their life with say for example emphysema, and then gets COVID-19 and passes away. Did they die of COVID-19 or emphysema?

I'm not sure to be honest

I've noticed that the news sometimes reports the person dying from c19 and others say with c19

The underlying condition is accelerated/intensified with the virus

So it should be with not from "

It's a tricky one

I guess they'll never be able to tell if the person would have survived if c19 hadn't exacerbated their condition

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Presumably all the people that die will require a post mortem and they will decide on the actual cause of death

If someone is fighting for their life with say for example emphysema, and then gets COVID-19 and passes away. Did they die of COVID-19 or emphysema?

I'm not sure to be honest

I've noticed that the news sometimes reports the person dying from c19 and others say with c19

The underlying condition is accelerated/intensified with the virus

So it should be with not from "

WITH implies that the person would have expired anyway. Doesn't this require a crystal ball?

I mean I can understand it if someone WITH COVID-19 gets killed in a car accident. In my opinion someone who may have still lived many more years had they not been infected with COVID-19 shouldn't be counted as dying from their underlying condition.

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By *heltenhamBiGuyMan
over a year ago

Cheltenham

"Presumably all the people that die will require a post mortem and they will decide on the actual cause of death

I believe its the case a virus does not cause death but do cause fatal conditions.

So Flu causes Pnuemonia.

I do not know this for certain and would be grateful for a better understanding of how virus acts in this regard.

Another better example might be - HIV causes AIDs"

HIV is a virus, AIDS is a syndrome where the immune system has become so weak a person is susceptible to OI's (Opportunistic Infections) the likes of pneumonia..... therefore the cause of death would be pneumonia with an underlying cause of HIV.

Covid19 acts in a similar way in that it infects cells with its RNA and multiplies from the cell killing it in the process and infecting other cells.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Presumably all the people that die will require a post mortem and they will decide on the actual cause of death

If someone is fighting for their life with say for example emphysema, and then gets COVID-19 and passes away. Did they die of COVID-19 or emphysema?

I'm not sure to be honest

I've noticed that the news sometimes reports the person dying from c19 and others say with c19

The underlying condition is accelerated/intensified with the virus

So it should be with not from

It's a tricky one

I guess they'll never be able to tell if the person would have survived if c19 hadn't exacerbated their condition "

Exactly this.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Presumably all the people that die will require a post mortem and they will decide on the actual cause of death"

No, theres a cause of death so no post mortem

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By *moothCriminal_xMan
over a year ago

Redditch

Largely people have compromised immune systems and the covid19 is the deciding factor in them dying now. In cases where there is a terminal illness or severe illness the covid19 accelerates death when someone may have survived or just lasted a few more months

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think people that have no understanding of how death certificates are written and how direct causes and contributing causes and how that system has worked for years probably shouldn't speculate on how something is wrong just because it suits their agenda to believe its wrong

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"Presumably all the people that die will require a post mortem and they will decide on the actual cause of death

I believe its the case a virus does not cause death but do cause fatal conditions.

So Flu causes Pnuemonia.

I do not know this for certain and would be grateful for a better understanding of how virus acts in this regard.

Another better example might be - HIV causes AIDs

Covid19 acts in a similar way in that it infects cells with its RNA and multiplies from the cell killing it in the process and infecting other cells.

Covid-19 does not act anything like HIV. All viruses infect cells, use the intracellular machinery to reproduce and then burst out to infect more cells. HIV is a retrovirus, it inserts itself into the host cell genome in a fairly complex manner. SARS-CoV-2 does no such thing. HIV infects a specific cell in the adaptive immune system called a CD4+ T cell. SARS-CoV-2 infects cells of the respiratory tract and small intestine that have the ACE2 receptor on their surface.

Please can we cease all comparisons with SARS-CoV-2 and HIV? We are comparing apples with carrots.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Why are stats important?

An example of this is South Africa where the government sought to cover their mishandling of the AIDS pandemic by watering down the stats. The then President Thabo Mbeki denied that AIDS even existed.

As a result people did not feel the need to use a condom and today South Africa is the AIDS capital of the world.

We cannot expect people to self isolate whilst we simultaneously play down the seriousness of the situation.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Largely people have compromised immune systems and the covid19 is the deciding factor in them dying now. In cases where there is a terminal illness or severe illness the covid19 accelerates death when someone may have survived or just lasted a few more months"

So what is the cut off? How much time does a life need to be cut short before cause of death is attributed to COVID-19?

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By *eeBee67Man
over a year ago

Masked and Distant

So the sad story of the 21 year old young lady who died "from coronavirus" who was reportedly fit and well with no underlying health issues.

Was headline news, but then dropped off the radar after it was found out she had sadly suffered a heart attack.

Is she a "with" or "of"?

Was the covid 19 affecting her so bad it affected her heart?

Or are the media just after sensationalist headlines?

At the start of "lockdown" we had news on all the time. Now only tend to watch the live briefings.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Presumably all the people that die will require a post mortem and they will decide on the actual cause of death

I believe its the case a virus does not cause death but do cause fatal conditions.

So Flu causes Pnuemonia.

I do not know this for certain and would be grateful for a better understanding of how virus acts in this regard.

Another better example might be - HIV causes AIDs

Covid19 acts in a similar way in that it infects cells with its RNA and multiplies from the cell killing it in the process and infecting other cells.

Thanks for this.

Ill take it all day over they other angry reply above who clearly went off half cocked.

To be clear I was not no conflating Covid 19 or HIV/AIDS. Or for that matter Influenza/Pneumonia.

I was asking how virus can cause fatality because it was my understanding they do not. My query has been kindly answered above.

All the best to all. Take care.

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By *heltenhamBiGuyMan
over a year ago

Cheltenham

"Presumably all the people that die will require a post mortem and they will decide on the actual cause of death

I believe its the case a virus does not cause death but do cause fatal conditions.

So Flu causes Pnuemonia.

I do not know this for certain and would be grateful for a better understanding of how virus acts in this regard.

Another better example might be - HIV causes AIDs

Covid19 acts in a similar way in that it infects cells with its RNA and multiplies from the cell killing it in the process and infecting other cells.

Please can we cease all comparisons with SARS-CoV-2 and HIV? We are comparing apples with carrots. "

Exactly what I said.... Covid19 acts in a SIMILAR way.... the difference is HIV buries itself in the DNA

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Presumably all the people that die will require a post mortem and they will decide on the actual cause of death"

It used to be that if a person died within 24 hours of hospital admission, they would get a post mortem.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"Presumably all the people that die will require a post mortem and they will decide on the actual cause of death

I believe its the case a virus does not cause death but do cause fatal conditions.

So Flu causes Pnuemonia.

I do not know this for certain and would be grateful for a better understanding of how virus acts in this regard.

Another better example might be - HIV causes AIDs

Covid19 acts in a similar way in that it infects cells with its RNA and multiplies from the cell killing it in the process and infecting other cells.

Please can we cease all comparisons with SARS-CoV-2 and HIV? We are comparing apples with carrots.

Exactly what I said.... Covid19 acts in a SIMILAR way.... the difference is HIV buries itself in the DNA"

If you're going to be that vague, then every virus on Earth works like that though! Every single virus, no matter whether they infect animal cells, plant cells or bacteria, insert their RNA or DNA into the cell in order to use the cellular machinery to reproduce viral cells. Every virus works like that because they lack the cellular equipment to reproduce by themselves. Your comparison is like saying fungi and humans are the same because they are both eukaryotic.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Is it safe to assume then that no one has AIDS written on their death certificate as cause of death?

I am interested in this purely from a statistical point of view.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"Is it safe to assume then that no one has AIDS written on their death certificate as cause of death?

I am interested in this purely from a statistical point of view."

They would have whatever caused their death as primary cause, eg pneumonia (very common) and would have HIV/AIDS listed contributing. HIV infection does not kill anyone, believe it or not.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 01/04/20 22:44:41]

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By *adetMan
over a year ago

South of Ipswich

So in effect then nobody has died from c19 but only with it. It's just the problems it causes that they die from

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"So in effect then nobody has died from c19 but only with it. It's just the problems it causes that they die from "

No, some people will have died from the pneumonia caused by SARS-CoV-2. However very few people with that infection actually develop a life threatening pneumonia.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Is it safe to assume then that no one has AIDS written on their death certificate as cause of death?

I am interested in this purely from a statistical point of view.

They would have whatever caused their death as primary cause, eg pneumonia (very common) and would have HIV/AIDS listed contributing. HIV infection does not kill anyone, believe it or not. "

Following the logic of HIV/AIDS contributing where would Covid19 be placed?

Contributing COVID 19 ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Is it safe to assume then that no one has AIDS written on their death certificate as cause of death?

I am interested in this purely from a statistical point of view."

No but many have HIV (in full, abbreviations arent allowed). Be that in 1b (underlying cause) or 2 contributing cause. Or despite what is written above in 1a as the actual cause.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Is it safe to assume then that no one has AIDS written on their death certificate as cause of death?

I am interested in this purely from a statistical point of view.

They would have whatever caused their death as primary cause, eg pneumonia (very common) and would have HIV/AIDS listed contributing. HIV infection does not kill anyone, believe it or not. "

If I cast my mind back to the start of the AIDS pandemic, was initially conceived as something only passed on by gay men. Many people died as a result of this misconception.

After seeing a number of interviews of youngsters on spring break in the USA it seems that many people believe COVID-19 to be only a danger to old people or those with underlying conditions.

I believe there is a very real danger of complacency that may result from this distinction.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"Is it safe to assume then that no one has AIDS written on their death certificate as cause of death?

I am interested in this purely from a statistical point of view.

They would have whatever caused their death as primary cause, eg pneumonia (very common) and would have HIV/AIDS listed contributing. HIV infection does not kill anyone, believe it or not.

Following the logic of HIV/AIDS contributing where would Covid19 be placed?

Contributing COVID 19 ?"

It depends if the person died of pneumonia that resulted from SARS-CoV-2 or whether they died of an unconnected condition but just happened to test positive for SARS-CoV-2.

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By *ottielayWoman
over a year ago

by the bay

"So in effect then nobody has died from c19 but only with it. It's just the problems it causes that they die from "

Yes I believe this is correct

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Is it safe to assume then that no one has AIDS written on their death certificate as cause of death?

I am interested in this purely from a statistical point of view.

They would have whatever caused their death as primary cause, eg pneumonia (very common) and would have HIV/AIDS listed contributing. HIV infection does not kill anyone, believe it or not.

If I cast my mind back to the start of the AIDS pandemic, was initially conceived as something only passed on by gay men. Many people died as a result of this misconception.

After seeing a number of interviews of youngsters on spring break in the USA it seems that many people believe COVID-19 to be only a danger to old people or those with underlying conditions.

I believe there is a very real danger of complacency that may result from this distinction."

This is the concern of public health how to communicate dangers without being over bearing. In some ways how to 'parent' a nation. I think that is a fair analology.

Accurancy, compassion and patience with questioning to gain full understanding work for me.

For others in our nation other actions may be more effective.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Thanks to all in this thread A genuinely good dicussion in bad circumstances.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Thanks to all in this thread A genuinely good dicussion in bad circumstances. "

I was just thinking this. I've learned a lot. Thank you to all those who contributed.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 01/04/20 23:03:49]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

A better comparison would be cancer, being actively and aggressively treated. You still stand a good chance of dying, you could get a chest infection, or neutropenic sepsis or urosepsis and die. Now you can add covid 19 to that list.

But to go back to the cancer analogy if someone has lung cancer, gets a chest infection which a fit and healthy person would survive and dies what did they die of? Was it the chest infection or was it the cancer? It's the cancer isnt it, the chest infection has just tipped them over the edge. So how dies that get recorded. Either cancer with a chest infection as a contributing cause. Or a chest infection with cancer as the underlying cause. But never as a chest infection with cancer as a contributing cause.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"A better comparison would be cancer, being actively and aggressively treated. You still stand a good chance of dying, you could get a chest infection, or neutropenic sepsis or urosepsis and die. Now you can add covid 19 to that list.

And to add to that, until recently, they wouldn't have reported the causal infectious agent of the chest infection or pneumonia. It's only SARS-CoV-2 being notifiable that is leading to the causal infectious agent of pneumonias being ID'd at the moment.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Here's an interesting article:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/31/england-more-than-third-of-hospital-covid-19-deaths-in-london

Of note:

"Overall 28 of those who died had no underlying health conditions"

And

"However the figures are not an accurate picture of the deaths over one day, as some deaths announced in today’s release occurred earlier this month. Of the 367 deaths, at least seven occurred more than a week ago"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I agree, in many cases pneumonia is arguably the mode of death not the cause and doesn't necessarily belong on the certificate. Some doctors very much like to be (overly?) detailed and some don't.

The irony is Covid-19 is a notifiable condition but all the guidelines make it clear it's not a matter for the Coroner so where it does or doesn't appear on a death certificate is a moot point as it is the positive test and death that's notifiable not what is on the certificate.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Men die with prostate cancer not because of prostate cancer.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"Here's an interesting article:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/31/england-more-than-third-of-hospital-covid-19-deaths-in-london

Of note:

"Overall 28 of those who died had no underlying health conditions"

And

The delays will be down to the difference between date of death and date death was formally recorded ie death cert issued. There is a time lag between the two. On the subject of no underlying health conditions, how many of these smoked? How many might be found to have died of something else at PM (like the 21yo who had no underlying conditions but had in fact died of a heart attack and had never actually been tested for Covid-19)? Obviously if a death cert has been issued, then a PM will already have occurred.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No co-morbidity.

The virus has attacked the healthy person and run them down until system failure. Another issue would have caused fatality - organ failure perhaps, or pneumonia has been reported in similar cases.

These cases appear to fit comfortably within the analogy with cancer as above. 'People die OF cancer'.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Here's an interesting article:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/31/england-more-than-third-of-hospital-covid-19-deaths-in-london

Of note:

"Overall 28 of those who died had no underlying health conditions"

And

The delay is because some people are only being confirmed as positive some days after they've died.

The daily totals will account for newly confirmed cases not actual deaths that day. It will be the results of people that died over several days. Incidentally it's also why figures on a Sunday are lower

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Here's an interesting article:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/31/england-more-than-third-of-hospital-covid-19-deaths-in-london

Of note:

"Overall 28 of those who died had no underlying health conditions"

And

Thanks again

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I did raise the point on another thread that it would be useful to know what percentage of the deceased were heavy smokers.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"I did raise the point on another thread that it would be useful to know what percentage of the deceased were heavy smokers."

I'd say just being a smoker, period. Even ever a smoker. Stopping smoking prevents further lung injury but usually whatever damage is there is done, even if someone stopped smoking decades ago. One reason I've been so keen for our son to bloody well stop, the eejit!

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By *eanne VegasTV/TS
over a year ago

tameside

In 2017/18 the beast from the east was linked to 50.000 deaths in the uk no one rattled on about it just put it down to severe conditions.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Every one who dies is tested, so if you have a weak heart and die of an heart attack then test positive they are put down as dying with the virus not of it? So figures mean nothing but don't tell the media that will kill the story.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I did raise the point on another thread that it would be useful to know what percentage of the deceased were heavy smokers."

I doubt we'll ever know. I doubt the government are classing it as something that puts people at additional risk unless it is at the stage you've got a long condition.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Surely everyone dies when their heart stops therefore the cause of death is cardiac arrest. For example if severely brain injured but heart is still beating they are not dead, just “ brain dead”. Or am I mistaken? So if a person is on “ life support” and it’s performing other bodily functions the heart at least is still working.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Every one who dies is tested, so if you have a weak heart and die of an heart attack then test positive they are put down as dying with the virus not of it? So figures mean nothing but don't tell the media that will kill the story. "

Everyone who dies isn't been tested. Not even close.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

If you die of a heart attack and you are also positive for SARS-CoV-2 at the time of death, your primary cause of death will be cardiac arrest or cardiac infarction or however the doc chooses to describe it. If there has been a positive test, then you are a "died with" stat, not of. The SARS-CoV-2 may or may not be recorded on the death cert.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Surely everyone dies when their heart stops therefore the cause of death is cardiac arrest. For example if severely brain injured but heart is still beating they are not dead, just “ brain dead”. Or am I mistaken? So if a person is on “ life support” and it’s performing other bodily functions the heart at least is still working. "

Cardiac arrest is a mode of death not a cause. It is also very different to a heart attack.

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By *litterbabeWoman
over a year ago

hiding from cock pics.

Everyone who dies isn't been tested. Not even close. "

I believe that to be true. We have lost a family friend today, he had all the symptoms of the virus as did two other people who have also passed this week who were in the same establishment as him. As far as I'm aware because he died outside of hospital he will never be tested. I'm not sure what the reason is maybe there's just not enough tests. I could of course be wrong but that is my understanding of the current situation.

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By *eeleyWoman
over a year ago

Dudley

I've said all along that many of the people that die after being tested positive for covid-19 would have likely died anyway. Obviously the virus won't have helped but I don't think the death toll would be so high if they didn't count every death in which the person had covid-19.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Everyone who dies isn't been tested. Not even close.

There is a huge gap on testing if people die in the community, I have no idea how this is being addressed but if they've died presenting symptoms but not been tested they should be being tested, equally including them in figures based on "best of knowledge and belief" is completely flawed.

With hospital deaths they are only testing those that have demonstrated symptoms so again those that are asymptomatic could be being missed.

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By *rFunBoyMan
over a year ago

Longridge

My father died from Kidney failure.

He was on dialsys from the month or two he left Intensive Care while on a cruise ship in the Med.

I see figures banded that around 9000 died of MERS. He was not one of these stats as are many 100 or 1000's of other that since died or dying as he lived a further 3 years.

Renal failure was put as COD with no mention of the original infection that completly changed ruined the life of a very fit and healthy 83 year old.

MERS is known to affect kidneys but discounted if it did not cause death at the time.

As already mentioned, it is convenient not to suggest COVID19 as cause as once over and a public enquiry starts as to why they wanted to "let it run" that led to 100's of thousands getting infected as well as failures of preparation of health system of life support equipment and PPE, a lower figure is obviously more favourable.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

Everyone who dies isn't been tested. Not even close.

With hospital deaths they are only testing those that have demonstrated symptoms so again those that are asymptomatic could be being missed. "

I'd imagine community deaths that are unexpected continue to go to PM but would they routinely test these? No idea. There are usually PMs nowadays even on "expected deaths" in care homes etc (post Shipman) but again, if these deaths were expected from an underlying cause, would they test for SARS-CoV-2,seeing as pneumonia is a common cause of deaths in elderly people at any time of year? Again, I don't know the answer there.

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By *eanne VegasTV/TS
over a year ago

tameside

People who die at home or in nursing home aren't tested for covid as not got enough testing kits to keep the hospitals going. There listed as having covid symptoms as are most in hospital.

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By *eeBee67Man
over a year ago

Masked and Distant

It's all a bit wishy washy I think.

We will only truly know once everything is over.

Will they count suicides during this period as related to the outbreak? Heard that there are fears they could go through the roof.

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By *eanne VegasTV/TS
over a year ago

tameside

On average 8000+ people die of flu in the uk each year no one goes on about it though.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I've said all along that many of the people that die after being tested positive for covid-19 would have likely died anyway. Obviously the virus won't have helped but I don't think the death toll would be so high if they didn't count every death in which the person had covid-19. "

This

Just because someone has Covid doesn't automatically make it cause of death

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By *ob198XaMan
over a year ago

teleford

"I did raise the point on another thread that it would be useful to know what percentage of the deceased were heavy smokers."

Not sure smoking is actually a big factor. Heard last night that statistically men are slightly more likely to die from this disease than women, ok men tend to smoke more... in China 50% of men smoke but only 2% of women however there are other country’s where the male/female smoking ratio is much more balanced. The slightly higher death rate for men in each country appears to be very similar regardless of the ratio of male to female smokers they have.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Everyone who dies isn't been tested. Not even close.

With hospital deaths they are only testing those that have demonstrated symptoms so again those that are asymptomatic could be being missed.

Few care home deaths go to PM now because all care homes have a specific GP attached to them who effectively does ward round so the residents are known. Post shipman the death certificates are scrutinised more but the PM rate nationally is steadily decreasing. The elderly that are most likely to have a post mortem are those living independently with minimal contact with a GP.

Anyone who has shown any symptoms is being swabbed and post mortems are not taking place until after the results are known as the post mortem has to be treated as high risk if there has been a positive result. I would be interested to see the statistics of how many covid-19 cases have had a post mortem? I'd guess it would be very low as pathologists and morticians are incredibly reluctant to deal with high risk cases at the best of times

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By *rFunBoyMan
over a year ago

Longridge

"On average 8000+ people die of flu in the uk each year no one goes on about it though. "

They do go on about it..

"Get the Flu jab" posters and ads those that should but don't are the majority of the 8000..

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"On average 8000+ people die of flu in the uk each year no one goes on about it though. "

And a couple of thousand of people are known to have died in a few weeks of Covid-19 so I'm not sure of the comparison you are trying to make?

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By *rFunBoyMan
over a year ago

Longridge

The number of times elderly and vulnerable relatives refuse the Flu jab each year because "it makes them ill" for a few days.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"On average 8000+ people die of flu in the uk each year no one goes on about it though.

And a couple of thousand of people are known to have died in a few weeks of Covid-19 so I'm not sure of the comparison you are trying to make?"

This is not correct

The figures are for people who have died who HAD Covid 19

Cause of death has not been confirmed as far as I'm aware

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

Interesting re: the lower number of PMs from care homes. When my Grandma died, expectedly, in a care home with my mother at her side, there was a PM (this was 2009). Without PM we'd never have known that she died with cancer and reactivation of adrenal TB, although we suspected the cancer. Primary cause was pulmonary embolism. Although I had warned her docs about her history of TB prior to her death as I was worried in her immunocompromised state that pulmonary TB might reactivate (more thinking of infection of those caring for her and others in hospital at the time). No one took any notice though! Just glad it was only the adrenal TB, not pulmonary. Anyway, I digress.

Yes, stats on numbers being tested at PM and numbers undergoing PM would be useful.

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By *uckandbunnyCouple
over a year ago

In your bed

"On average 8000+ people die of flu in the uk each year no one goes on about it though. "

Yep and this year even with all the restrictions 20k will die (of/with) cv19.

You remove those restrictions and you are looking at 250k - 500k. Not to mention the entire collapse of the health care system.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"On average 8000+ people die of flu in the uk each year no one goes on about it though.

They do go on about it..

"Get the Flu jab" posters and ads those that should but don't are the majority of the 8000.."

Did they all die of flu or witb flu?

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By *uckandbunnyCouple
over a year ago

In your bed

"On average 8000+ people die of flu in the uk each year no one goes on about it though.

They do go on about it..

"Get the Flu jab" posters and ads those that should but don't are the majority of the 8000..

Did they all die of flu or witb flu?"

This is all semantics. The human condition has 100% fatality rate.

The cause of death is down to a combination of factors there is never one silver bullet, even if you are shot with a silver bullet.

You will only know the true impact on the virus when you compare yearly death rates.

If 2020 deaths per million are significantly higher then cv19 will be the significant variable.

So yes people with asthma are likely to die, but throw cv19 in the mix and the odds of death are higher.

Its not that asthma or cv19 is the sole cause. It that the combination makes the overall odds worse.

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By *ob198XaMan
over a year ago

teleford

"On average 8000+ people die of flu in the uk each year no one goes on about it though.

They do go on about it..

"Get the Flu jab" posters and ads those that should but don't are the majority of the 8000..

Did they all die of flu or witb flu?"

Go look at the wards filling with patients who can’t breath and tell us these people are dying with Covid19 rather than dying because of Covid19

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

It seems fully wrong to apportion in this way by default. If Covid is the catalyst causing death, when it would not have happened without it, such as sudden degradation of lungs or other organs, then it's right to have some attribution to it. If their prior life expectancy had been good, then it's inaccurate to do it that way

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"On average 8000+ people die of flu in the uk each year no one goes on about it though.

They do go on about it..

"Get the Flu jab" posters and ads those that should but don't are the majority of the 8000..

Did they all die of flu or witb flu?

This is all semantics. The human condition has 100% fatality rate.

The cause of death is down to a combination of factors there is never one silver bullet, even if you are shot with a silver bullet.

You will only know the true impact on the virus when you compare yearly death rates.

If 2020 deaths per million are significantly higher then cv19 will be the significant variable.

So yes people with asthma are likely to die, but throw cv19 in the mix and the odds of death are higher.

Its not that asthma or cv19 is the sole cause. It that the combination makes the overall odds worse.

Your points are all very valid.

The point I am making is that those who seek to minimize COVID-19 by pointing out the underlying conditions and then quoting seasonal flu fatalities fail to mention the underlying conditions of the seasonal flu victims.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"It seems fully wrong to apportion in this way by default. If Covid is the catalyst causing death, when it would not have happened without it, such as sudden degradation of lungs or other organs, then it's right to have some attribution to it. If their prior life expectancy had been good, then it's inaccurate to do it that way "

This is what I am saying too. If a person would have otherwise lived many more years had COVID-19 not come along did the underlying condition really kill them.

By the same token, if someone is on their deathbed from something else and would pass today tomorrow regardless then it would be wrong to blame COVID-19.

So what is the cut off. And does one not need a crystal ball to know how long someone would have lived otherwise?

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By *eeBee67Man
over a year ago

Masked and Distant

Apparently 13 year old who died today, died from cardiac arrest. Exacerbated by Covid 19? Caused by Covid-19?

And no Post Mortem.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

"On average 8000+ people die of flu in the uk each year no one goes on about it though. "

There is significant global work to predict and formulate the mix of flu strains included in the annual vaccine. Uk investment then targets and treats the vulnerable and is a significant investment. What more would you expect to see done? It's possibly the lowest cost way to make significant reductions to flu infection and mortality rates but still leaves a tragic outcome for so many.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"Apparently 13 year old who died today, died from cardiac arrest. Exacerbated by Covid 19? Caused by Covid-19?

And no Post Mortem. "

It sounds very odd that a child with no underlying health conditions died of cardiac arrest but no PM? Generally all unexpected deaths are PM'd unless the cause is blindingly obvious.

Read the bit under Coroner's Post-mortem

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/post-mortem/

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By *rFunBoyMan
over a year ago

Longridge

Suspected but not confirmed symptom is heart damage due to lack of oxygen.

Low oxygen, heart rate rises, increased demand for oxygen.. heart failure.

This may also be why high blood pressure is a risk when suffering, over stressed heart.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Apparently 13 year old who died today, died from cardiac arrest. Exacerbated by Covid 19? Caused by Covid-19?

And no Post Mortem.

It sounds very odd that a child with no underlying health conditions died of cardiac arrest but no PM? Generally all unexpected deaths are PM'd unless the cause is blindingly obvious.

Read the bit under Coroner's Post-mortem

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/post-mortem/"

I agree. It would be unusual to not have a PM on a child death unless there is a very clear cause of death. A cardiac arrest is not a cause of death, it is the heart stopping and people with covid-19 are not dying of a sudden cardiac arrest, they are dying following a steady and potentially prolonged deterioration.

There probably has been no PM yet as so few hospitals do paediatric post mortems and there is often a delay in arranging one

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By *iverpool LoverMan
over a year ago

liverpool

"Apparently 13 year old who died today, died from cardiac arrest. Exacerbated by Covid 19? Caused by Covid-19?

And no Post Mortem.

It sounds very odd that a child with no underlying health conditions died of cardiac arrest but no PM? Generally all unexpected deaths are PM'd unless the cause is blindingly obvious.

Read the bit under Coroner's Post-mortem

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/post-mortem/

There probably has been no PM yet as so few hospitals do paediatric post mortems and there is often a delay in arranging one"

I just read one of the new laws im the covid 19 act that passed this week that a single doctor can sign off on a person's death without need of a post mortem.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Apparently 13 year old who died today, died from cardiac arrest. Exacerbated by Covid 19? Caused by Covid-19?

And no Post Mortem.

It sounds very odd that a child with no underlying health conditions died of cardiac arrest but no PM? Generally all unexpected deaths are PM'd unless the cause is blindingly obvious.

Read the bit under Coroner's Post-mortem

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/post-mortem/

There probably has been no PM yet as so few hospitals do paediatric post mortems and there is often a delay in arranging one

I just read one of the new laws im the covid 19 act that passed this week that a single doctor can sign off on a person's death without need of a post mortem.

They could anyway. The law has changed but not in the way you state. The doctor still needs a cause of death and the family and in the case of a 13 year old the Coroner would all have to be okay with it.

The second doctor was needed to counter sign cremation papers not a death certificate. The rules around doctors signing death certificates have been relaxed but that is primarily around which doctors can and cant issue a certificate which used to have very strict limitations (which were already under review). A single doctor issuing to the best of their knowledge and belief, that has not changed at all

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It appears that we now have a distinction. If a person with an underlying condition dies whilst testing positive for COVID-19 it is the underlying condition that kills them not the virus.

How do people feel about this?

People obsess with numbers. Way I see it, if the government can offset deaths relating to other issues instead of COVID-19, they can appear to have had a handle on the situation.

After the dust settles, there will be an inquests from all sides: the media, the opposition and the people."

this!!!! The government has completely bungled this and is now trying to fudge its way through it . This is and never was the time or place for government to STILL have to make excuses for lack of PPE or tests

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It appears that we now have a distinction. If a person with an underlying condition dies whilst testing positive for COVID-19 it is the underlying condition that kills them not the virus.

How do people feel about this?

People obsess with numbers. Way I see it, if the government can offset deaths relating to other issues instead of COVID-19, they can appear to have had a handle on the situation.

After the dust settles, there will be an inquests from all sides: the media, the opposition and the people.

Given that all the totals that you are seeing include died with not just died of, and given that anyone that died with is notifiable to public health England how exactly are the government trying to offset anything?

Also this reporting is exactly the same in other countries, the UK government from a reporting point if view are not doing anything different to other countries.

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By *_the_impalerMan
over a year ago

canterbury

The very nature of covid-19 is it destroys your immune system and your body is fight so hard something we see as mild like a cold cannot be fought off similar to aids it allows the other illness to take hold and overwhelmes the body

That’s why we stay at home to try and not get it in the first place

A large proportion of obese people die of it too because of the extra pressure placed on their body

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By *nique_GymMan
over a year ago

Cardiff

It is far worse than flu it’s called a Novel virus and it’s never existed before. What it does if you don’t produce enough interferon in your lungs (Interferons are a group of signaling proteins made and released by host cells in response to the presence of several viruses). In a typical scenario, a virus-infected cell will release interferons causing nearby cells to heighten their anti-viral defences, and fight the virus.

What the virus does (Borrowed from ‘Latin virus’ (“poison, slime, venom”). if you don’t produce interferon in your lungs, your lungs fill up with mucus and water that’s the pneumonia part and then the virus or rather your antibodies eat up your alveoli you end up with your lungs bleeding and they fill up with water lack of oxygen and then you get organ failure and die however this is if you’re not producing enough interferon.

As you get older you produce less interferon that’s why it’s age-specific - I’ve oversimplified it massively but it’s not far from the truth, so if you smoke are older, have a compromised health issue, or have different genetics such as not producing high amounts of Interferon’s then you could be in trouble. Hence why we have a lockdown scenario!

Hope everyone is ok and keeping well, and as a community let’s support one another,obviously I am not a Dr I just google and research!

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

Article on BBC News explaining the with and of:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51979654

The death figures being reported daily are hospital cases where a person dies with the coronavirus infection in their body - because it is a notifiable disease cases have to be reported.

But what the figures do not tell us is to what extent the virus is causing the death.

It could be the major cause, a contributory factor or simply present when they are dying of something else.

Most people who die with coronavirus have an underlying health condition, such as heart disease or diabetes, that may be more of a factor.

For example, an 18-year-old in Coventry tested positive for coronavirus the day before he died and was reported as its youngest victim at the time.

But the hospital subsequently released a statement saying his death had been due to a separate "significant" health condition and not connected to the virus.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I had a virus in January.

Symptoms: Dry cough, shortage of breath, temperature. I was then diagnosed with pneumonia. I recovered and returned to work. Wasnt tested so don't know.

Testing the wrong people.

Test staff....yes

Test random, general public to understand how it spreads.... don't waste them on patients!!

Would it not make sense to test patients so that people who they have come in contact with can in turn be tested before they pass the infection on?"

It might if they did that...but they don't anymore. That was phase 1. We are now in phase 2.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Presumably all the people that die will require a post mortem and they will decide on the actual cause of death

If someone is fighting for their life with say for example emphysema, and then gets COVID-19 and passes away. Did they die of COVID-19 or emphysema?

I'm not sure to be honest

I've noticed that the news sometimes reports the person dying from c19 and others say with c19

The underlying condition is accelerated/intensified with the virus

So it should be with not from

It's a tricky one

I guess they'll never be able to tell if the person would have survived if c19 hadn't exacerbated their condition "

They do not report either with OR from. Listen properly. For weeks they have been saying "Died after testing positive for "

Could have been hit by a bus after testing positive for all the use that is!

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By *litterbabeWoman
over a year ago

hiding from cock pics.

And that doesn't include people who died without being admitted to hospital, so there are lots of other people as well in nursing homes etc who are not in the statistics

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Does it really matter, many of these people die away from their families, then their families are subjected to an almost heartless clinical disposal of the body and that's just now at the very beginning. By the time this is over who knows what the state will be, bodies might be mixed up.

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By *uited staffs guyMan
over a year ago

staffordshire

Many of the people who do die from this (but not all) had significant underlying health problems - heart disease being a common one

A significant proportion of those patients would on average, have died within 12 months and an even greater proportion within 5 years

What’s happening however is that with covid they are getting ill at the same time and many are dying earlier, whether by months or years than they would, on average have done

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By *eddy and legsCouple
over a year ago

the wetlands

"It appears that we now have a distinction. If a person with an underlying condition dies whilst testing positive for COVID-19 it is the underlying condition that kills them not the virus.

How do people feel about this?"

Why does it matter ?

If we don't slow the spread people will die needlessly whether or not they would have died in a week a month a year or ten years.

Maybe after this everyone over 75 should be considered dnr ?

That's sarcasm by the way

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Eddie Large dies at 78 after contracting coronavirus

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By *ensualtouch15Man
over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

"It appears that we now have a distinction. If a person with an underlying condition dies whilst testing positive for COVID-19 it is the underlying condition that kills them not the virus.

How do people feel about this?"

No idea

Eddie large is dead

The bbc report says

His family confirmed the news "with great sadness" on Facebook, saying he had been suffering with heart failure and contracted the virus in hospital.

So you tell me

As with your nut allergy analogy I assume you are going to suggest if he had not contracted the deadly virus he would have made a full recovery????

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"It appears that we now have a distinction. If a person with an underlying condition dies whilst testing positive for COVID-19 it is the underlying condition that kills them not the virus.

How do people feel about this?

No idea

Eddie large is dead

The bbc report says

His family confirmed the news "with great sadness" on Facebook, saying he had been suffering with heart failure and contracted the virus in hospital.

So you tell me

As with your nut allergy analogy I assume you are going to suggest if he had not contracted the deadly virus he would have made a full recovery????

As I said erlier, you'd need a crystal ball. Maybe a person would have survived had there not been COVID-19 to make things worse. Who can say?

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By *angbangFantasyWoman
over a year ago

London

"It appears that we now have a distinction. If a person with an underlying condition dies whilst testing positive for COVID-19 it is the underlying condition that kills them not the virus.

How do people feel about this?"

I think you need to make a distinction between the cause of death and diseases.

A person who has for instance with COPD (chronic obstructive pulmonary disease) may contract the virus which would further exacerbate the symptoms of COPD. That patient then may die due to cardiac failure (their heart stops working). There's a chain of "from", "due to" , etc.

Even a person for instance who has diabetes may have diabetes but they may die due to a heart attack because of what having diabetes does to the body.

Hope that makes sense?

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By *tticusukMan
over a year ago

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[Removed by poster at 03/04/20 00:52:22]

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By *tticusukMan
over a year ago

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"If a person with a severe nut allergy dies after accidentally eating nuts, what is the cause of death? The nuts or the nut allergy?

Lots of people eat nuts and don't die.

But many people with nut allergies live long lives.

So surely it is a combination of the two conditions that is the cause of death?"

The cause of death would be Anaphylaxis leading to respiratory arrest then likely cardiac arrest.

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By *tticusukMan
over a year ago

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[Removed by poster at 03/04/20 01:13:57]

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By *tticusukMan
over a year ago

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"It appears that we now have a distinction. If a person with an underlying condition dies whilst testing positive for COVID-19 it is the underlying condition that kills them not the virus.

How do people feel about this?

No idea

Eddie large is dead

The bbc report says

His family confirmed the news "with great sadness" on Facebook, saying he had been suffering with heart failure and contracted the virus in hospital.

So you tell me

As with your nut allergy analogy I assume you are going to suggest if he had not contracted the deadly virus he would have made a full recovery????

As I said erlier, you'd need a crystal ball. Maybe a person would have survived had there not been COVID-19 to make things worse. Who can say?"

Do you understand what heart failure is? Yes it’s a chronic terminal illness but one which depending on the stage you are at can still result in a enjoyable liveable life.

Just like a neutropenic stem cell transplant patient for something like non-Hodgkin lymphoma would likely die if they contracted the virus vs making a excelling recovery from the cancer.

Covid has a huge mortality rate vs something like the flu. In Italy the worst fatality rate for the flu in recent years was 24,000 people. Now it’s estimated that there are usually 20% of the population infected with the flu so for Italy’s sake that would be 12,000,000 infections leading to 24,000 deaths which is a death rate of 0.2%. Now because of Italy’s extensive testing we know currently there are 130,000 people with the virus with around about 14,000 deaths which is a death rate of 10.8%. Which is 54 times more deadly than the flu. So for covid 19 to have the same death rate as the flu that would mean there would actually have to be currently 7,000,000 Italians infected. Which I somehow doubt is unlikely.

People don’t seem to grasp the gravity of how deadly covid is.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"It appears that we now have a distinction. If a person with an underlying condition dies whilst testing positive for COVID-19 it is the underlying condition that kills them not the virus.

How do people feel about this?

No idea

Eddie large is dead

The bbc report says

His family confirmed the news "with great sadness" on Facebook, saying he had been suffering with heart failure and contracted the virus in hospital.

So you tell me

As with your nut allergy analogy I assume you are going to suggest if he had not contracted the deadly virus he would have made a full recovery????

As I said erlier, you'd need a crystal ball. Maybe a person would have survived had there not been COVID-19 to make things worse. Who can say?

Do you understand what heart failure is? Yes it’s a chronic terminal illness but one which depending on the stage you are at can still result in a enjoyable liveable life.

Just like a neutropenic stem cell transplant patient for something like non-Hodgkin lymphoma would likely die if they contracted the virus vs making a excelling recovery from the cancer.

People don’t seem to grasp the gravity of how deadly covid is. "

Are you responding to me? Because we are pretty much in agreement.

Regarding the seriousness of this virus this is exactly what I have been saying since January while the Fab mob pelted me with metaphorical rotten fruit.

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By *assy211279Woman
over a year ago

middle of nowhere Cornwall

Rhetorical questions

I just ask do any of you know what flu is.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"Rhetorical questions

I just ask do any of you know what flu is.

Yes, thanks. Do you? Flu is completely and utterly different to SARS-CoV-2 (see description of the two viruses towards the start of this thread).

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Just throwing another one in

If someone dies due to a previously well treated illness ...but due to covid they expire due to lack of treatment ie medicine shortage or not getting into hospital. Would covid be a named part of the death or would it just be the pre-existing illness?

Genuine question that I'm curious about

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Death still tragic whatever way

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By *tticusukMan
over a year ago

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"Just throwing another one in

Genuine question that I'm curious about

If un infected covid wouldn’t be listed as cause of death

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"Just throwing another one in

Genuine question that I'm curious about

I'd imagine the original condition. Unless they test positive for SARS-CoV-2, it isn't a contributory factor. I agree that people with pre existing conditions are at risk from deterioration due to the massive scaling back of other aspects of healthcare.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Just throwing another one in

Genuine question that I'm curious about

Yep your probably right....the knock on effect will be far higher with people not bothering or too scared to visit the doctors with a small illness that will lead to something like sepsis sadly

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 03/04/20 18:04:54]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Just throwing another one in

Genuine question that I'm curious about

Covid wouldnt be on the death certificate. However the death could go to inquest on the basis that the death was avoidable

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By *abliTV/TS
over a year ago

leeds

No there’s no post-mortem. It’s the doctors judgment on cause of death.

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By *uckymooMan
over a year ago

Mid-Cheshire

Just bringing it to the too for a read.

Very very interesting points made

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It appears that we now have a distinction. If a person with an underlying condition dies whilst testing positive for COVID-19 it is the underlying condition that kills them not the virus.

How do people feel about this?"

They try and figure out what exactly killed them and that becomes the cause of death. Even if the virus was the straw that broke the camels back but the actual thing that caused the person was in fact something else then that is what actually killed them.

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By *litterbabeWoman
over a year ago

hiding from cock pics.

The powers of the new bill that passed last week mean death certificates will be issued quicker. A coroner will not be needed to sign a death certificate.

(Source https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/explained-the-sweeping-new-powers-included-in-the-governments-emergency-coronavirus-bill)

Significant changes are being made to how deaths are recorded, including easing requirements for coroners to sign death certificates when another health practitioner are available.

Funeral directors will also now be able to register deaths on behalf of a family if they are unable due to being quarantined, whilst electronic copies of documents will be accepted in order to certify the registration.

In order to free up medical staff, requirements for a second confirmatory medical certificate to be presented before a cremation can be carried out are also being removed.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Presumably all the people that die will require a post mortem and they will decide on the actual cause of death

If someone is fighting for their life with say for example emphysema, and then gets COVID-19 and passes away. Did they die of COVID-19 or emphysema?

The death certificate would state both

It terms of the OP question would the person be said to have died OF Emphysema and Covid-19?

People are starting to question the COVID-19 stats saying many of those deceased are people who would have died anyway from something else."

We will all die from something or other at some stage , the covid 19 only speeds things up if the patient has underlying medical issues but it's a very interesting question ..from or with ...kinda like which came first ..the chicken or the egg ..but if l was to give my honest opinion it would be from ...cause a person maybe suffering from an underlying medical issue but has not passed away from it ..along comes covid19 and cleans them off ..so to me it would be from kinda like the gunslinger after taking a few bullets but still alive and breathing ,along comes " kid covid " and puts the fatal bullet into him ...my tuppence worth on it anyway.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple
over a year ago

North West

"No there’s no post-mortem. It’s the doctors judgment on cause of death. "

It entirely depends on the mode of death, the circumstances etc. PMs can and are still being carried out on those dying with Covid-19. If the cause of death is obvious and the death was expected, yes, no PM, but if there's no obvious cause or the death is in any way suspicious, a PM would still take place.

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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago

Barbados

"It appears that we now have a distinction. If a person with an underlying condition dies whilst testing positive for COVID-19 it is the underlying condition that kills them not the virus.

How do people feel about this?"

Generally when I see this being asked (not from you) it is from the people trying to minimise the issues. The “it’s just the flu” crowd. Right now it doesn’t really matter if they died with or of C19 if C19 was a contributing factor. I’d even go so far at to argue that if I had a heart attack suddenly the then died because I wasn’t able to he t the medical help needed due to the current overload due to C19... include my death in the tally.

-Matt

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