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No such thing as NSA

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

I've seen, throughout a few threads, this alluded to.Now some seem to think it is possible...in fact are certain it is.Personally I think there is no such thing as NSA in anything.Every reaction a person has to anything is firstly an emotional response...that is never switched off!

If it were possible then nobody, who says it it, would have any criteria for meeting anyone, other than sex.

Does anyone want to try and convince me otherwise?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think it would depend on how someone defines the strings. If by no strings attached you mean that you require sex without any emotion then I don't think thats possible. A lot will say there has to be an attraction...that's an emotion...therefore a string, all be it a thin one.

However, if strings to you mean the usual trappings of a relationship ie: calling just to say hi how was your day...finding out about each others lives....knowing where they live etc then its possible to have nsa sex.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"I think it would depend on how someone defines the strings. If by no strings attached you mean that you require sex without any emotion then I don't think thats possible. A lot will say there has to be an attraction...that's an emotion...therefore a string, all be it a thin one.

However, if strings to you mean the usual trappings of a relationship ie: calling just to say hi how was your day...finding out about each others lives....knowing where they live etc then its possible to have nsa sex. "

Surely then, it would be better described as 'fewer strings attached'?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Basically means having sex without the conditions of a relationship or ties to that person

Nothing really to do with the emotional or attraction side of things x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

as a young man in my late teens and very early 20's (78-85) I would go out with my mates every weekend,get pissed and try to shag anything that moved.the whole of south london,male and female, seemed to be doing the same thing. we were quite good at it too!! Strings attached? not one.

irresponsible and potentially dangerous? probably

Good fun? Fuck yeah

Iwish i could apologise to all those i gave an unemotional shag and who's names I can't remember

but then they won't remember me either.

today of course its not so straightforward,or so they tell me

Cats Whiskers/Cinatras/Bon Bonne all meat markets in those days and NO ONE cared

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Basically means having sex without the conditions of a relationship or ties to that person

Nothing really to do with the emotional or attraction side of things x "

In that case its NSA all the way for me...I shall never be a puppet!

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By *irtyGirlWoman
over a year ago

Edinburgh


"Basically means having sex without the conditions of a relationship or ties to that person

Nothing really to do with the emotional or attraction side of things x "

There are still always strings of some sort. I'm agreeing with the OP... there is no such thing as NSA, except on a faulty puppet!

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

I have seen responses, in other threads, bemoaning the fact that some people have become more attached to someone than perhaps they should have.What I am saying is that that will always be the risk when two people interact.Some people we like more than others, of course, but we none of us can turn that off...you likes who you likes!

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester


"I've seen, throughout a few threads, this alluded to.Now some seem to think it is possible...in fact are certain it is.Personally I think there is no such thing as NSA in anything.Every reaction a person has to anything is firstly an emotional response...that is never switched off!

If it were possible then nobody, who says it it, would have any criteria for meeting anyone, other than sex.

Does anyone want to try and convince me otherwise?"

I go to a club... I go in an open room... I allow myself to enjoy the pleasure of the hands and tongues all over me... and when aroused enough I roll over on all fours and get fucked by one or two of them. When they have done they wander off.

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By *orthwest_cplCouple
over a year ago

Stretford


"Personally I think there is no such thing as NSA in anything."

How about sex in a club darkroom where you have no idea who it is?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I've seen, throughout a few threads, this alluded to.Now some seem to think it is possible...in fact are certain it is.Personally I think there is no such thing as NSA in anything.Every reaction a person has to anything is firstly an emotional response...that is never switched off!

If it were possible then nobody, who says it it, would have any criteria for meeting anyone, other than sex.

Does anyone want to try and convince me otherwise?

I go to a club... I go in an open room... I allow myself to enjoy the pleasure of the hands and tongues all over me... and when aroused enough I roll over on all fours and get fucked by one or two of them. When they have done they wander off.

"

That is most deffinately NSA of the upmost. You don't know their name, you may not even see their faces.

But if you meet someone on a one to one basis this almost never happens. You'd email them first, swap numbers, chat etc. Still no strings of the relationship kind but an attraction non the less.

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

I go dogging. I enjoy watching. I enjoy being watched. Once in a while I see someone really fit and fancy fucking them. Sometimes this happens.... most of those times it happens it's without even a word being spoken. When we are finished we go back to our cars and drive off in different directions. No names, no numbers, no contact.... just the memory of acting out of pure lust.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I've seen, throughout a few threads, this alluded to.Now some seem to think it is possible...in fact are certain it is.Personally I think there is no such thing as NSA in anything.Every reaction a person has to anything is firstly an emotional response...that is never switched off!

If it were possible then nobody, who says it it, would have any criteria for meeting anyone, other than sex.

Does anyone want to try and convince me otherwise?

I go to a club... I go in an open room... I allow myself to enjoy the pleasure of the hands and tongues all over me... and when aroused enough I roll over on all fours and get fucked by one or two of them. When they have done they wander off.

"

can you tell us where and when please..pretty please

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Personally I think there is no such thing as NSA in anything.

How about sex in a club darkroom where you have no idea who it is?"

I assume you go to clubs as a couple?...if you do then you have an emotional connection with your partner...the rest is extra.

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester


"Personally I think there is no such thing as NSA in anything.

How about sex in a club darkroom where you have no idea who it is?

I assume you go to clubs as a couple?...if you do then you have an emotional connection with your partner...the rest is extra."

I prefer going clubbing and dogging on my own.

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By *irtyGirlWoman
over a year ago

Edinburgh


"Basically means having sex without the conditions of a relationship or ties to that person

Nothing really to do with the emotional or attraction side of things x

There are still always strings of some sort. I'm agreeing with the OP... there is no such thing as NSA, except on a faulty puppet! "

Disclaimer... there's no such thing as NSA unless you're a faulty puppet or Polo!

There is a prime example of how NSA can be achieved.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Personally I think there is no such thing as NSA in anything.

How about sex in a club darkroom where you have no idea who it is?

I assume you go to clubs as a couple?...if you do then you have an emotional connection with your partner...the rest is extra.

I prefer going clubbing and dogging on my own."

That,still,is an emotional response to an idea or a fantasy.It's a satisfaction of an expectation.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I have seen responses, in other threads, bemoaning the fact that some people have become more attached to someone than perhaps they should have.What I am saying is that that will always be the risk when two people interact.Some people we like more than others, of course, but we none of us can turn that off...you likes who you likes!"

So now your not saying there is no such thing as NSA?

Well it happens, many people happily indulge. Just because you or people you have encountered make attachments then it doesn't mean others can't.

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester


"Personally I think there is no such thing as NSA in anything.

How about sex in a club darkroom where you have no idea who it is?

I assume you go to clubs as a couple?...if you do then you have an emotional connection with your partner...the rest is extra.

I prefer going clubbing and dogging on my own.

That,still,is an emotional response to an idea or a fantasy.It's a satisfaction of an expectation."

Oh come on stop stretching it. There are no strings connecting to anyone else involved... it is NSA sex.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

I'm not saying everone forms bonds with people...what I am saying is everything will have a 'string' of some sort.Nothing anyone does is totally without reason.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Personally I think there is no such thing as NSA in anything.

How about sex in a club darkroom where you have no idea who it is?

I assume you go to clubs as a couple?...if you do then you have an emotional connection with your partner...the rest is extra.

I prefer going clubbing and dogging on my own.

That,still,is an emotional response to an idea or a fantasy.It's a satisfaction of an expectation.

Oh come on stop stretching it. There are no strings connecting to anyone else involved... it is NSA sex."

I'm not stretching anything.The suggestion is the end is only sexual gratification...which is fine.We are all capable of doing that on our own though...but when we choose to invole another person then you have your first string.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'm not saying everone forms bonds with people...what I am saying is everything will have a 'string' of some sort.Nothing anyone does is totally without reason."

True, however you can have sex without having any 'feelings' for them, I know I do. It tends to be easier for men than women though in my experiences usualy you have to be married, attached or a 'certain type' of woman to have no feelings

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester


"I'm not saying everone forms bonds with people...what I am saying is everything will have a 'string' of some sort.Nothing anyone does is totally without reason."

Reason is not a STRING.... it's just the motive driving ine side of the event.

There is no expectation of any further contact beyond the sexual act. In fact there's no expectation of anything beyond the sexual act.... other than they feck off WITHOUT a string trail.

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester


"I'm not saying everone forms bonds with people...what I am saying is everything will have a 'string' of some sort.Nothing anyone does is totally without reason.

True, however you can have sex without having any 'feelings' for them, I know I do. It tends to be easier for men than women though in my experiences usualy you have to be married, attached or a 'certain type' of woman to have no feelings"

May be some of us actually do have feelings ... but know the difference between physical sex and the emotional relationship stuff.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"I'm not saying everone forms bonds with people...what I am saying is everything will have a 'string' of some sort.Nothing anyone does is totally without reason.

True, however you can have sex without having any 'feelings' for them, I know I do. It tends to be easier for men than women though in my experiences usualy you have to be married, attached or a 'certain type' of woman to have no feelings"

I think it's quite easy to have sex without strong feelings or even very tenuous ones but most people cannot do anything TOTALLY without feelings.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'm not saying everone forms bonds with people...what I am saying is everything will have a 'string' of some sort.Nothing anyone does is totally without reason."

wouldn't that be up to the person doing it. If they say there was no emotional input i'd be prepared to take the word for it. I fancy a cup of tea, I go and make one. Its a choice not a chemical reaction. at the moment I have a pituitary condition,my brain is the last thing i should be taking notice of

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Correlation does not imply causation

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

I don't want to be misunderstood...I am not saying people who play will fall head over heels all over the place...what I am saying every decision anyone makes is fundamentally based,initionally, on an emotional response.

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester


"

I'm not stretching anything.The suggestion is the end is only sexual gratification...which is fine.We are all capable of doing that on our own though...but when we choose to invole another person then you have your first string."

And I'm saying that's bollox.... in the context of NSA.

There are unspoken expectations ... yes. I will expect a good seeing to... I will expect they know what they are doing.... ok sometimes it's more wishful thinking than expectations... but whatever they are, they do not go beyond the physical act. There are no ties after the event... how can there be ties if you haven't the first clue who they are... and sometimes what they look like.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Correlation does not imply causation"

True, however that is usually applied to science and statistics, when people are involved its a different story.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

I'm not stretching anything.The suggestion is the end is only sexual gratification...which is fine.We are all capable of doing that on our own though...but when we choose to invole another person then you have your first string.

And I'm saying that's bollox.... in the context of NSA.

There are unspoken expectations ... yes. I will expect a good seeing to... I will expect they know what they are doing.... ok sometimes it's more wishful thinking than expectations... but whatever they are, they do not go beyond the physical act. There are no ties after the event... how can there be ties if you haven't the first clue who they are... and sometimes what they look like."

What? have you had sex with someone you dont know what they look like?

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester


"

What? have you had sex with someone you dont know what they look like? "

I have done... yes.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

What? have you had sex with someone you dont know what they look like?

I have done... yes."

Fair enough, each to there own I suppose, now that is definately NSA

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"

I'm not stretching anything.The suggestion is the end is only sexual gratification...which is fine.We are all capable of doing that on our own though...but when we choose to invole another person then you have your first string.

And I'm saying that's bollox.... in the context of NSA.

There are unspoken expectations ... yes. I will expect a good seeing to... I will expect they know what they are doing.... ok sometimes it's more wishful thinking than expectations... but whatever they are, they do not go beyond the physical act. There are no ties after the event... how can there be ties if you haven't the first clue who they are... and sometimes what they look like."

You have every right to have a contrary view to my own...however that doesn't necessarily mean what I say is 'bollocks'...still you do not know me but have had a strong emotional response to what I have said so maybe you are making my point for me

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'm not saying everone forms bonds with people...what I am saying is everything will have a 'string' of some sort.Nothing anyone does is totally without reason.

True, however you can have sex without having any 'feelings' for them, I know I do. It tends to be easier for men than women though in my experiences usualy you have to be married, attached or a 'certain type' of woman to have no feelings"

would love to agree with you...but i can't.

I'm neither married or attached....other than to my family.

my commitment is towards them so will not entertain a relationship right now as they are still struggling to understand the changes in our lives....that and the fact i am very happily single.

i dont know what you mean by 'certain type'...it's pretty sweeping and I'm sure you could apply any type of woman to a 'certain type'.

I do, however, seem to have the misfortune of meeting men that tend to form an emotional connection quite quickly...I say misfortune as i'm always clear that it is not what i'm after and it serves me no pleasure to have to re-affirm that when they tell me they want more.

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By *b430Man
over a year ago

Tayside


"I don't want to be misunderstood...I am not saying people who play will fall head over heels all over the place...what I am saying every decision anyone makes is fundamentally based,initionally, on an emotional response."

Load of rubbish!

Of course there is NSA when you meet someone, have sex with them and never have any kind of contact with them ever again!

You are talking about emotions which is not the same as what I've said above!

The "string" was never there and never will be again - So NSA fun was had!

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester


"

What? have you had sex with someone you dont know what they look like?

I have done... yes.

Fair enough, each to there own I suppose, now that is definately NSA "

I have been strapped into a sex swing whilst wearing a blindfold and had a couple of guys brought in by a mate to 'sort me out'.... It's quite a buzz walking around the club afterwards not knowing who it was.

I have been in very large groups and been taken from behind... no clue who it was... and to be honest I didn't care... it would have spoilt the moment if I had looked and found out it was a munter. I was more interested in the person in front of me.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"I don't want to be misunderstood...I am not saying people who play will fall head over heels all over the place...what I am saying every decision anyone makes is fundamentally based,initionally, on an emotional response.

Load of rubbish!

Of course there is NSA when you meet someone, have sex with them and never have any kind of contact with them ever again!

You are talking about emotions which is not the same as what I've said above!

The "string" was never there and never will be again - So NSA fun was had! "

I'm happy for you to think it 'a load of rubbish' perhaps you could back it up for a change instead of pathalogically 'agreeing' with what most women have said...it looks a little needy.

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester


"

I'm not stretching anything.The suggestion is the end is only sexual gratification...which is fine.We are all capable of doing that on our own though...but when we choose to invole another person then you have your first string.

And I'm saying that's bollox.... in the context of NSA.

There are unspoken expectations ... yes. I will expect a good seeing to... I will expect they know what they are doing.... ok sometimes it's more wishful thinking than expectations... but whatever they are, they do not go beyond the physical act. There are no ties after the event... how can there be ties if you haven't the first clue who they are... and sometimes what they look like.

You have every right to have a contrary view to my own...however that doesn't necessarily mean what I say is 'bollocks'...still you do not know me but have had a strong emotional response to what I have said so maybe you are making my point for me "

Trust me that is far from a strong emotional response

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I don't want to be misunderstood...I am not saying people who play will fall head over heels all over the place...what I am saying every decision anyone makes is fundamentally based,initionally, on an emotional response."

but that's not true. what about decisions that use logic and rationality. they override emotional thinking. or they should do.using weighted criteria is not the same as emotional response.Having said that as i mentioned,I have a condition that at the moment is slighty disturbing my usual emotional patterns. this also seems to affect my logic. which sound like i've just disproved my own theory lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'm not saying everone forms bonds with people...what I am saying is everything will have a 'string' of some sort.Nothing anyone does is totally without reason.

True, however you can have sex without having any 'feelings' for them, I know I do. It tends to be easier for men than women though in my experiences usualy you have to be married, attached or a 'certain type' of woman to have no feelings

would love to agree with you...but i can't.

I'm neither married or attached....other than to my family.

my commitment is towards them so will not entertain a relationship right now as they are still struggling to understand the changes in our lives....that and the fact i am very happily single.

i dont know what you mean by 'certain type'...it's pretty sweeping and I'm sure you could apply any type of woman to a 'certain type'.

I do, however, seem to have the misfortune of meeting men that tend to form an emotional connection quite quickly...I say misfortune as i'm always clear that it is not what i'm after and it serves me no pleasure to have to re-affirm that when they tell me they want more. "

I was only talking from personal experiences meeting and chatting to single women on here. It was not ment as a 'sweeping statement' and only applies to the minority,however I have found that some of them women here have a certain 'attitude' which is at odds to the none swinging female, iam sure I will get grief for saying this but its what I have found

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"I don't want to be misunderstood...I am not saying people who play will fall head over heels all over the place...what I am saying every decision anyone makes is fundamentally based,initionally, on an emotional response.

but that's not true. what about decisions that use logic and rationality. they override emotional thinking. or they should do.using weighted criteria is not the same as emotional response.Having said that as i mentioned,I have a condition that at the moment is slighty disturbing my usual emotional patterns. this also seems to affect my logic. which sound like i've just disproved my own theory lol"

Totally agree...but the INITIAL reaction will always be an emotional one...that is instinctive.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'm not saying everone forms bonds with people...what I am saying is everything will have a 'string' of some sort.Nothing anyone does is totally without reason.

True, however you can have sex without having any 'feelings' for them, I know I do. It tends to be easier for men than women though in my experiences usualy you have to be married, attached or a 'certain type' of woman to have no feelings

would love to agree with you...but i can't.

I'm neither married or attached....other than to my family.

my commitment is towards them so will not entertain a relationship right now as they are still struggling to understand the changes in our lives....that and the fact i am very happily single.

i dont know what you mean by 'certain type'...it's pretty sweeping and I'm sure you could apply any type of woman to a 'certain type'.

I do, however, seem to have the misfortune of meeting men that tend to form an emotional connection quite quickly...I say misfortune as i'm always clear that it is not what i'm after and it serves me no pleasure to have to re-affirm that when they tell me they want more.

I was only talking from personal experiences meeting and chatting to single women on here. It was not ment as a 'sweeping statement' and only applies to the minority,however I have found that some of them women here have a certain 'attitude' which is at odds to the none swinging female, iam sure I will get grief for saying this but its what I have found "

....just wondering how many nsa meets you have had with single men to make that comparison against?

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

Dear bertie... I am trying to make sense of where you are trying to come from, so please clarify.

Are you trying to say any 'feeling' (buzz, impluse, lust etc) is an emotion...

thus....

there must be an emotion involved....

thus....

there is a string, even thought you will never see the person again and they don't have a clue why you just had sex with them?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The only strings involved here is normally a G string or leaving/receiving a verification if you really want to over analyse things

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester


"

I was only talking from personal experiences meeting and chatting to single women on here. "

Well that explains it... as a good % of the single women on here are fucked up or in denial.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Dear bertie... I am trying to make sense of where you are trying to come from, so please clarify.

Are you trying to say any 'feeling' (buzz, impluse, lust etc) is an emotion...

thus....

there must be an emotion involved....

thus....

there is a string, even thought you will never see the person again and they don't have a clue why you just had sex with them?

What I am saying is the 'strings' may be extremely tenuous for some but they WILL be there.

"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'm not saying everone forms bonds with people...what I am saying is everything will have a 'string' of some sort.Nothing anyone does is totally without reason.

True, however you can have sex without having any 'feelings' for them, I know I do. It tends to be easier for men than women though in my experiences usualy you have to be married, attached or a 'certain type' of woman to have no feelings

would love to agree with you...but i can't.

I'm neither married or attached....other than to my family.

my commitment is towards them so will not entertain a relationship right now as they are still struggling to understand the changes in our lives....that and the fact i am very happily single.

i dont know what you mean by 'certain type'...it's pretty sweeping and I'm sure you could apply any type of woman to a 'certain type'.

I do, however, seem to have the misfortune of meeting men that tend to form an emotional connection quite quickly...I say misfortune as i'm always clear that it is not what i'm after and it serves me no pleasure to have to re-affirm that when they tell me they want more.

I was only talking from personal experiences meeting and chatting to single women on here. It was not ment as a 'sweeping statement' and only applies to the minority,however I have found that some of them women here have a certain 'attitude' which is at odds to the none swinging female, iam sure I will get grief for saying this but its what I have found

....just wondering how many nsa meets you have had with single men to make that comparison against?"

None, and I guess its hard for me to make any comparisons, however why are there 10 times more men on here than women, because men are more inclined to seek 'NSA' sex than women.

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By *b430Man
over a year ago

Tayside


"I don't want to be misunderstood...I am not saying people who play will fall head over heels all over the place...what I am saying every decision anyone makes is fundamentally based,initionally, on an emotional response.

Load of rubbish!

Of course there is NSA when you meet someone, have sex with them and never have any kind of contact with them ever again!

You are talking about emotions which is not the same as what I've said above!

The "string" was never there and never will be again - So NSA fun was had!

I'm happy for you to think it 'a load of rubbish' perhaps you could back it up for a change instead of pathalogically 'agreeing' with what most women have said...it looks a little needy."

Eh? Give me a few minutes to finish eating my lunch and i will be back to explain it to you!

By the way, I agree with myself, no-one else so not "a little needy" here but cheers for that!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

I was only talking from personal experiences meeting and chatting to single women on here.

Well that explains it... as a good % of the single women on here are fucked up or in denial."

You said it, and Iam not sure if it was in jest or sarcasm but I have found exactly the same, hence why I prefer to meet couples.

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester

Won't the string vanish after the sex?

Doesn't the string only exist in the past... as a pre-sex string?

Do instant disolving strings count when it comes to NSA?

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo


"I have seen responses, in other threads, bemoaning the fact that some people have become more attached to someone than perhaps they should have.What I am saying is that that will always be the risk when two people interact.Some people we like more than others, of course, but we none of us can turn that off...you likes who you likes!"

There would never be a risk in our case.

For want of a better word, we use men for MFM......we have fun with them, then they leave....just as I am sure they are using us for their MFM fun.

We only know a limited amount about them but do know we can converse inbetween play....but that is as far as it goes.

NSA sex all round, on their part too.

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester


"

I was only talking from personal experiences meeting and chatting to single women on here.

Well that explains it... as a good % of the single women on here are fucked up or in denial.

You said it, and Iam not sure if it was in jest or sarcasm but I have found exactly the same, hence why I prefer to meet couples."

Oh no I am serious... and could give plenty of objective examples

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

I was only talking from personal experiences meeting and chatting to single women on here.

Well that explains it... as a good % of the single women on here are fucked up or in denial.

You said it, and Iam not sure if it was in jest or sarcasm but I have found exactly the same, hence why I prefer to meet couples.

Oh no I am serious... and could give plenty of objective examples "

Lol , same here, my inbox is full of arsey replies from some of them,

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"....just wondering how many nsa meets you have had with single men to make that comparison against?

None, and I guess its hard for me to make any comparisons, however why are there 10 times more men on here than women, because men are more inclined to seek 'NSA' sex than women. "

so, you have absolutely no basis for your comment about there being more women than men that want more than just sex on here then?

..and when I use my experience as comparison to say I have the totally opposite experience, the two facts make your argument mute. Good, glad we agree on that.

People are people...emotions are not gender specific...everyone has them and is capable of falling even in the wrong situation.

there are many possible reasons why there are more men than women...off the top of my head and going by other threads it could be anything from the fact some single men think that the site is full of sex crazed women that will shag anyone and the fact that a lot of men will openly discuss this site with their friends whereas i know i wouldn't...nor have i talked to any women on here that do...or perhaps the women are just put off by all the "fancy a fuck" lines they get bombarded with...or there are more unfaithful men than women? i don't know if they are the answers or not...i know why i'm here and that to me is all that matters.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

I was only talking from personal experiences meeting and chatting to single women on here.

Well that explains it... as a good % of the single women on here are fucked up or in denial.

You said it, and Iam not sure if it was in jest or sarcasm but I have found exactly the same, hence why I prefer to meet couples.

Oh no I am serious... and could give plenty of objective examples

Lol , same here, my inbox is full of arsey replies from some of them, "

an arsey reply IS an emotional response tho so you can't blame em

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Won't the string vanish after the sex?

Doesn't the string only exist in the past... as a pre-sex string?

Do instant disolving strings count when it comes to NSA?"

While I agree with what the OP has said I also agree with you Polo on the NSA in a club or dogging scenario. It happens all the time.

Personnally I would never meet on a 1 to 1 basis without knowing their name or a little about them but I don't think that means I have strings. It means I'm being cautious not to waste my spare time on a prick that won't entertain me!

I've been gangbanged before...I have no idea what they looked like and I loved it. That was the thrill...the ultimate in NSA. Just because I felt an emotion, that emotion was mine not theirs and I don't have strings on myself do I? So its purely a physical thing. Therefore its purely NSA.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

I was only talking from personal experiences meeting and chatting to single women on here.

Well that explains it... as a good % of the single women on here are fucked up or in denial.

You said it, and Iam not sure if it was in jest or sarcasm but I have found exactly the same, hence why I prefer to meet couples.

Oh no I am serious... and could give plenty of objective examples

Lol , same here, my inbox is full of arsey replies from some of them,

an arsey reply IS an emotional response tho so you can't blame em "

Haha, true , in some ways it must show that they care

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By *b430Man
over a year ago

Tayside

Right that's my Lunch finished and damn good it was too, if I do say so myself!

Now for the explanation to my earlier post -

4 years or so ago I came home from work one Thursday evening, logged on to a swinging site I used to use and there was a message from a "couple" I had never had any contact with in the past asking if I would like to go to theirs that evening for NSA fun.

Replied yes, got the details of where to go, set off, got there, said hello and within minutes the 3 of us where in the bedroom having NSA fun (although he kept calling her a different name to what he said earlier), fun finished, she went off to do what ladies do after NSA fun, I got dressed and then asked about the name change.

As it turns out, this wasn't his "other half" but a woman he worked with who had always fancied a MFM 3some with NSA, the 2 of us had given her just that.

Do I class what we did that night as NSA? Of course I do as, to date, I still don't know their "real" names, have no idea now what their address was/is and would never contact them ever again anyway!

That's my NSA explanation/definition as asked for earlier!

Now, what will I have for me tea? Oh decisions, decisions!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"....just wondering how many nsa meets you have had with single men to make that comparison against?

None, and I guess its hard for me to make any comparisons, however why are there 10 times more men on here than women, because men are more inclined to seek 'NSA' sex than women.

so, you have absolutely no basis for your comment about there being more women than men that want more than just sex on here then?

..and when I use my experience as comparison to say I have the totally opposite experience, the two facts make your argument mute. Good, glad we agree on that.

People are people...emotions are not gender specific...everyone has them and is capable of falling even in the wrong situation.

there are many possible reasons why there are more men than women...off the top of my head and going by other threads it could be anything from the fact some single men think that the site is full of sex crazed women that will shag anyone and the fact that a lot of men will openly discuss this site with their friends whereas i know i wouldn't...nor have i talked to any women on here that do...or perhaps the women are just put off by all the "fancy a fuck" lines they get bombarded with...or there are more unfaithful men than women? i don't know if they are the answers or not...i know why i'm here and that to me is all that matters."

Fair enough, I can only speak from personal experience, however you can not deny that their are far more men on here than women. There has to be a reason for this, and in my opinion its because its both more socialy acceptable and emotionally easier for men to have sex with people they have no 'feelings' for then women. Iam sure there are quite a lot of men on here who get emotionally attached but as a percentage of the number of men on here its very small.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"as a young man in my late teens and very early 20's (78-85) I would go out with my mates every weekend,get pissed and try to shag anything that moved.the whole of south london,male and female, seemed to be doing the same thing. we were quite good at it too!! Strings attached? not one.

irresponsible and potentially dangerous? probably

Good fun? Fuck yeah

Iwish i could apologise to all those i gave an unemotional shag and who's names I can't remember

but then they won't remember me either.

today of course its not so straightforward,or so they tell me

Cats Whiskers/Cinatras/Bon Bonne all meat markets in those days and NO ONE cared

"

Great tits ....for a bloke x

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Won't the string vanish after the sex?

Doesn't the string only exist in the past... as a pre-sex string?

Do instant disolving strings count when it comes to NSA?

While I agree with what the OP has said I also agree with you Polo on the NSA in a club or dogging scenario. It happens all the time.

Personnally I would never meet on a 1 to 1 basis without knowing their name or a little about them but I don't think that means I have strings. It means I'm being cautious not to waste my spare time on a prick that won't entertain me!

I've been gangbanged before...I have no idea what they looked like and I loved it. That was the thrill...the ultimate in NSA. Just because I felt an emotion, that emotion was mine not theirs and I don't have strings on myself do I? So its purely a physical thing. Therefore its purely NSA. "

We do have 'strings' on ourselves...those are the strongest ones of all.The attempt to detach yourself from any emotional 'bond' with playmates is entirely for the purpose of protecting those and yourself.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

we're with polo on this one. some people can act without an emotional tie some people can't. Both Tra and myself can go to clubs or meets and have sex without any 'emotions' or 'strings' involved. The day that one of us feels that's not the case anymore we will stop,because it will no longer be fun. Its a rule we have between ourselves and that is NSA and non negotiable

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"as a young man in my late teens and very early 20's (78-85) I would go out with my mates every weekend,get pissed and try to shag anything that moved.the whole of south london,male and female, seemed to be doing the same thing. we were quite good at it too!! Strings attached? not one.

irresponsible and potentially dangerous? probably

Good fun? Fuck yeah

Iwish i could apologise to all those i gave an unemotional shag and who's names I can't remember

but then they won't remember me either.

today of course its not so straightforward,or so they tell me

Cats Whiskers/Cinatras/Bon Bonne all meat markets in those days and NO ONE cared

Great tits ....for a bloke x"

lol nshall i change our profile pic everytime i post something?

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By *irtyGirlWoman
over a year ago

Edinburgh

To a certain extent, in many cases there has to be strings. I tend not to meet in clubs, mainly because there are none up here (well one fairly dubious one but I'll pass) which then involves hotels/home meets and personally I want to be safe.

I want to swing with people I know and like. I want to get to know a bit about them. I have done the annonymous club meet and fucked a random I didn't know anything about at all. That was fab but I was there as a couple and had my FB with me (sorry... swinging partner - whatever is the politically correct term for someone you fuck but aren't in a relationship with) so from a safety point of view that's fine. I have no idea who the guy was, unlikely ever to see him again. There were no strings with that.

I have strings with my friend with benefits just as he has with me. They're not bad for either of us. We know where we're at. I think it's fine when something works for you but I do agree that it doesn't work for everyone. I would like to find someone in my neck of the woods to have a regular thing with, I think sex is better for me when I know someone and they know me. It doesn't mean I want to marry them. I don't want a 24/7 relationship but I would like a litte more than fucking an annoymous bloke for one night. If I want a one night stand, I'd go out in town and pick one up. That for me has no strings. The way I swing is slightly more complicated but I'm way too lazy to be a stalker and I have my own bunny so not interested in boiling anyone else's.

I guess it's different for everyone.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Won't the string vanish after the sex?

Doesn't the string only exist in the past... as a pre-sex string?

Do instant disolving strings count when it comes to NSA?

While I agree with what the OP has said I also agree with you Polo on the NSA in a club or dogging scenario. It happens all the time.

Personnally I would never meet on a 1 to 1 basis without knowing their name or a little about them but I don't think that means I have strings. It means I'm being cautious not to waste my spare time on a prick that won't entertain me!

I've been gangbanged before...I have no idea what they looked like and I loved it. That was the thrill...the ultimate in NSA. Just because I felt an emotion, that emotion was mine not theirs and I don't have strings on myself do I? So its purely a physical thing. Therefore its purely NSA.

We do have 'strings' on ourselves...those are the strongest ones of all.The attempt to detach yourself from any emotional 'bond' with playmates is entirely for the purpose of protecting those and yourself."

Bullshit! Now come on Bertie, you & I know each other quite well and therefore you should know that would get my back up. If you have strings to yourself thats all very well, I won't disagree with that but I can't leave these at home can I? NSA does exist and here you have plenty of examples of it. However its an individual thing. Some people don't want to be gangbanged by strangers or fucked from behind in a dark car park. So for those that do just accept that they have and enjoy no strings sex. A physical release that they get off on. I've done it myself.

But for those that don't then if they have strings thats their choice. I may meet someone, have a drink with them and then fuck them all night long. Doesn't mean I want to see them again and it doesn't mean I want them to meet my family. So yes there are thin strings of an attraction or a lust but thats all!

And if you reply to that with some pedantic crock of shit I'll come and smack your fookin arse....strings or no strings

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

Lady K...I am not trying to get your back up.We actually agree on the point woman.

Oh if there is a smacking in the offing it will be your arse!

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester


"

We do have 'strings' on ourselves...."

But those strings are not tied to anyone else.... they are not there to tangle up other people.... they don't even have to be unwound.... they are just balls of string.... just balls!

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"

We do have 'strings' on ourselves....

But those strings are not tied to anyone else.... they are not there to tangle up other people.... they don't even have to be unwound.... they are just balls of string.... just balls!"

I least when you dismiss me you are clever about it.

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester


" .... I may meet someone, have a drink with them and then fuck them all night long. Doesn't mean I want to see them again and it doesn't mean I want them to meet my family. So yes there are thin strings of an attraction or a lust but thats all!"

I don't see how what we do before fucking someone has anything to do with it (I am about to agree with you ... bare with me). The strings in the context of NSA are the strings we cast after the event or arther because of the event.... I have had sex with you so now I expect blar blar blar.

So I think you have described NSA when you talk about meeting for a drink and then having sex... if you both go your seperate ways afterwards.

But I also like having fuck buddies... and they do come with strings (in both directions) because buddies (whether fucking or not) have expectations of what happens between them after sex.

Neither way is right or wrong... stringy or stringless... I enjoy both.

What is wrong is to pretend.

I don't know how many times I have typed the next bit over the years, but here goes again....

Polo's 3 rules:

1 - Be honest with yourself about what you really want.

2 - Be honest with those you intend to meet about what you really want.

3 - Never do something you don't really want to, especially if it is just to keep someone else happy.

If everyone could apply those 3 simple rules it wouldn't matter whether a person wanted strings or not.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

I think those three rules are the most perfect description of what this site should be about!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I think those three rules are the most perfect description of what this site should be about! "

It's a perfect description of what LIFE should be about

If only Eh?

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

Life is often about doing something you don't really want to to please someone else.Here though is a place where we are allowed to just please ourselves.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Life is often about doing something you don't really want to to please someone else."

i stopped doing that the day I left school. really.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

You must have been very lucky with work throughout your life

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Basically means having sex without the conditions of a relationship or ties to that person

Nothing really to do with the emotional or attraction side of things x "

i agree with this one, we r on here for just sex. yeah ok we have made a few good mates through it but at the end of the day its just sex to us.

just our opinion.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"You must have been very lucky with work throughout your life "

I have been, I'm self employed. If I'm asked to do a job I don't want to do I overprice it. If by a fluke I get it the extra money outweighs the fact i didn't want to do it,which means I'm then happy. If I really don't want to do it then I won't.ever. it costs me money in the long run but that doesn't make me unhappy.win/win for me

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

It's not an option for most...but very nice that you can.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

What? have you had sex with someone you dont know what they look like?

I have done... yes."

I have done too - quite a few times actually and the times I have (Ive been blindfold) they havent spoken to me either. They have spoken to my guy beforehand to arrange it all, he has stated whats to happen ie; me not seeing them and they not talking to me, and he makes sure im safe, he meets them beforehand etc etc.

I dont form any emotional attachment to any of the guys Ive played with. If Im honest, even when ive played whilst not wearing a blindfold, an hour out of the room or club etc and they could pass me in the street and I wouldnt recognise them. I dont ever ask their names, I prefer the usernames on here, I never have their phone number, I dont ever make any contact with them, I dont talk on msn - they are there for the playtime, when its over, finito, never see them again - I refer to them as swinging men, they dont mean anything to me. Thats not to say that I havent enjoyed their company and they all have been really sweet, but I dont fantasise about them afterwards - sorry if thats harsh

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 29/11/10 16:04:21]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"It's not an option for most...but very nice that you can."

!?

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"It's not an option for most...but very nice that you can.

!?

"

Just about work...it's good you have the option.Most people work for someone else that's all.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This will get back to the OP trust me.there are 4 million self employed people in the UK. most of these are,like my own,small businesses. The main rise in employment in the last quarter was mainly through self employment. A lot of people who are not self employed could be so. Admittedly its not easy. A lot of businesses go under through no fault of the owner. its hard and not a lot of people get rich on it and a lot of people lose a lot. I am fully aware that given my attitude to work I have been extremely lucky. Not in the sense of wealth but that after 25 years I'm still going.I don't own my own house,have a modest car and 1 holiday a year. We don't have a lot of money but fuck we're happy. Because I do what I want with No Strings Attached. I value my happiness more than anything else. so I use a business approach that fulfils an emotional need. and for us it works.

for now.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

I am sincerely happy you have managed to find a way to make it work for you.I think it is a really lovely attitude to have.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

N.S.A from a couple's point of view it does what it say's on the tin,but from a single man's point of view is because you might have just giveing him the best sex he has ever had he thinks A-you fancy him-B he is better than your man e.g bigger cock-better body-c you have just fucked him so you must like him.we as a couple think N.S,A fun and friendship works to be blunt it's the same as haveing fuck buddys there friend's you fuck with your still friend's with them but you fuck them aswell.i think from a couple's point of view on N.S.A fun to that of a man's let's just say it's different.xx

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

Not just between couples and men...I'm sure it will mean something slightly different for most people.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I've seen, throughout a few threads, this alluded to.Now some seem to think it is possible...in fact are certain it is.Personally I think there is no such thing as NSA in anything.Every reaction a person has to anything is firstly an emotional response...that is never switched off!

If it were possible then nobody, who says it it, would have any criteria for meeting anyone, other than sex.

Does anyone want to try and convince me otherwise?"

Emotions are not strings.

I think your opening post suggests you believe that they are the same in some way. I don't think they are, emotions are usually spontaneous and unique to an individual.

Strings are often much more of a conscious decision and usually intended to 'tie' one or more persons in some way, some tight some loosely.

I agree it would be difficult to have sex without emotions, but sex without strings is just a decision.

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By *omer47Man
over a year ago

leigh

nsa is just a polite way of saying using you for sex.all people on this site weather your m/f/mf/mm/ff or tv just want to have sex,not a relationship.otherwise why are you on the site.there are other sites/places you can meet if you just want to chat,go for a drink etc etc.me personally..i just want to meet,have sex then go.not sit there for ages drinking & chatting,e.mailing etc just to find that your getting nowhere.thats timewasting to me....just my opinion.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"nsa is just a polite way of saying using you for sex.all people on this site weather your m/f/mf/mm/ff or tv just want to have sex,not a relationship.otherwise why are you on the site.there are other sites/places you can meet if you just want to chat,go for a drink etc etc.me personally..i just want to meet,have sex then go.not sit there for ages drinking & chatting,e.mailing etc just to find that your getting nowhere.thats timewasting to me....just my opinion. "

Blimey. Get many meets then?

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By *lack_BoltMan
over a year ago

oxford


"I've seen, throughout a few threads, this alluded to.Now some seem to think it is possible...in fact are certain it is.Personally I think there is no such thing as NSA in anything.Every reaction a person has to anything is firstly an emotional response...that is never switched off!

If it were possible then nobody, who says it it, would have any criteria for meeting anyone, other than sex.

Does anyone want to try and convince me otherwise?"

I've been reading this thread with interest and was inclined, initially, to dismiss it as a rather pointless and rambling discussion. While this is still true I can't help feeling that there are several independent ideas that seem to be lumped together. I think for instance the notion of whether emotions are present or not is a red herring.

However the real discussion seems to be about the meaning of the term NSA. And there seems to be some confusion. Even the OP thinks that, for some reason, meeting for sex is exempt.

The idea that a "string" is a tie or a bond of some sort is probably erroneous. It seems to me that it is better seen as an obligation. Then the notion of meeting without any obligation, even to have sex, is perfectly feasible and doesn't require the need to invoke any other element.

It is true that personalities come into play and emotions may or may not be a factor, but there is no "obligation" for that to be the case.

Therefore in order to answer the question regarding NSA sex, it may have been useful to more clearly define what NSA meant.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I cannot just play with anyone. There has to be chemistry between me and the gent beyond physical attraction.

To me, NSA means not having to live with a person, and free to meet and play with other people as and when I like, and be a free agent.

I can have recreational sex without emotional attachment.

However, that is not to say I have no feelings towards any of the peeps I play or played with.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

i think i feel the same

to me NSA sex does not mean i will shag anyone because its just sex, to me NSA sex mean i still want to like and be attracted to someone but when im not with them what we do is nothing to do with each other, both still free to meet others, not having the rights to be calling and texting all the time, not meetingt again if thats what i choose to do

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

for me to met someone and play, There has to be an attraction otherwise i wont get turned on and i wont enjoy it

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"I've seen, throughout a few threads, this alluded to.Now some seem to think it is possible...in fact are certain it is.Personally I think there is no such thing as NSA in anything.Every reaction a person has to anything is firstly an emotional response...that is never switched off!

If it were possible then nobody, who says it it, would have any criteria for meeting anyone, other than sex.

Does anyone want to try and convince me otherwise?

I've been reading this thread with interest and was inclined, initially, to dismiss it as a rather pointless and rambling discussion. While this is still true I can't help feeling that there are several independent ideas that seem to be lumped together. I think for instance the notion of whether emotions are present or not is a red herring.

However the real discussion seems to be about the meaning of the term NSA. And there seems to be some confusion. Even the OP thinks that, for some reason, meeting for sex is exempt.

The idea that a "string" is a tie or a bond of some sort is probably erroneous. It seems to me that it is better seen as an obligation. Then the notion of meeting without any obligation, even to have sex, is perfectly feasible and doesn't require the need to invoke any other element.

It is true that personalities come into play and emotions may or may not be a factor, but there is no "obligation" for that to be the case.

Therefore in order to answer the question regarding NSA sex, it may have been useful to more clearly define what NSA meant. "

You still believe the thread to be 'pointless and rambling' yet you have 'followed it with interest'...now you can't have it both ways can you?

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By *edangel_2013Woman
over a year ago

southend

Yes you can have it both ways.

It depends where the interest lies. For example if they have an interest in pointless and rambling threads, then yes, they can read it with interest.

Life is rarely black and white, the swinging world less so.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Yes you can have it both ways.

It depends where the interest lies. For example if they have an interest in pointless and rambling threads, then yes, they can read it with interest.

Life is rarely black and white, the swinging world less so. "

An interest would therefore not be pointless...still we can disagree on it

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester


" You still believe the thread to be 'pointless and rambling' yet you have 'followed it with interest'...now you can't have it both ways can you?"

I have followed many a pointless thread... not because I am interested in the subject. I am usually just waiting for stupid comments to take the piss out of.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


" You still believe the thread to be 'pointless and rambling' yet you have 'followed it with interest'...now you can't have it both ways can you?

I have followed many a pointless thread... not because I am interested in the subject. I am usually just waiting for stupid comments to take the piss out of."

Ahh but that is a slightly different thing than what the gentleman said!

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester


" You still believe the thread to be 'pointless and rambling' yet you have 'followed it with interest'...now you can't have it both ways can you?

I have followed many a pointless thread... not because I am interested in the subject. I am usually just waiting for stupid comments to take the piss out of.

Ahh but that is a slightly different thing than what the gentleman said!"

Things are always different to how a man describes it

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


" You still believe the thread to be 'pointless and rambling' yet you have 'followed it with interest'...now you can't have it both ways can you?

I have followed many a pointless thread... not because I am interested in the subject. I am usually just waiting for stupid comments to take the piss out of.

Ahh but that is a slightly different thing than what the gentleman said!

Things are always different to how a man describes it "

That's because women don't listen to all the description...before they are of buying shoes!

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By *he_original_poloWoman
over a year ago

a Primark shoebox in Leicester


" You still believe the thread to be 'pointless and rambling' yet you have 'followed it with interest'...now you can't have it both ways can you?

I have followed many a pointless thread... not because I am interested in the subject. I am usually just waiting for stupid comments to take the piss out of.

Ahh but that is a slightly different thing than what the gentleman said!

Things are always different to how a man describes it

That's because women don't listen to all the description...before they are of buying shoes! "

Yes, this is true, some women are excellent at prioritising well.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

That made me chuckle.

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By *lack_BoltMan
over a year ago

oxford


"I've seen, throughout a few threads, this alluded to.Now some seem to think it is possible...in fact are certain it is.Personally I think there is no such thing as NSA in anything.Every reaction a person has to anything is firstly an emotional response...that is never switched off!

If it were possible then nobody, who says it it, would have any criteria for meeting anyone, other than sex.

Does anyone want to try and convince me otherwise?

I've been reading this thread with interest and was inclined, initially, to dismiss it as a rather pointless and rambling discussion. While this is still true I can't help feeling that there are several independent ideas that seem to be lumped together. I think for instance the notion of whether emotions are present or not is a red herring.

However the real discussion seems to be about the meaning of the term NSA. And there seems to be some confusion. Even the OP thinks that, for some reason, meeting for sex is exempt.

The idea that a "string" is a tie or a bond of some sort is probably erroneous. It seems to me that it is better seen as an obligation. Then the notion of meeting without any obligation, even to have sex, is perfectly feasible and doesn't require the need to invoke any other element.

It is true that personalities come into play and emotions may or may not be a factor, but there is no "obligation" for that to be the case.

Therefore in order to answer the question regarding NSA sex, it may have been useful to more clearly define what NSA meant.

You still believe the thread to be 'pointless and rambling' yet you have 'followed it with interest'...now you can't have it both ways can you?"

You mustn't try to create conflict where there is none. People have expressed interesting views and ideas. So it can still be intriguing without 'having it' one way or the other.

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