FabSwingers.com forum: Female genital mutilation

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Just a quick point on this current hot topic in the media.

If female genital mutilation is being condemned by many, why is the Jewish tradition of removing a boys foreskin not also condemned by wider society?.

Surely that is mutilation too?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't agree with removing a boys foreskin for none medical reasons let me just point that out, but what they do to girls is a far bigger and harmful ordeal for the child than the removal of the for skin

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By *ust RachelTV/TS
over a year ago

Horsham

When you circuncise a boy you remove the foreskin, when you mutilate a girl you are removing thier clitoris, ( i think I am correct in this), Normally by someone who is not medically trained.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I think female genital mutilation takes many forms.

As you mentioned, the clitoris can be removed or the labia are cut off or the vaginal opening is sewn up.

All pretty gruesome and disgusting but so, in my opinion, is removing a boys foreskin for non medical reasons.

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By *ngieandMrManCouple
over a year ago

hereford

I'm no expert on the subject but apparently there are different levels of what we would call genital mutilation in females. In some extremes the vagina lips are removed and the clitoris is ripped out. Whereas on a lesser level the vaginal lips are abraded and the lips are sewn (effectively skin grafting) them together, just leaving access to urinate, securing proof of virginity until marriage.

Male circumcision while it may be unnecessary in most case it's not so destructive so it could be seen as not really qualify as genital mutilation.

Given that all laws must be qualified and specific you're going to run into problems with other body mods that could be construed as mutilation, for example having your child's ear(s) pierced.

While the customs of some ethnic societies are seen as barbaric abuse to us one might consider their human rights and civil liberties to have their society the way they see fit. So this might beg the question as to how many women are actually complaining about being subjected to such practices. For every one that complains 'I've been mutilated against my will' there could be a 1000's and 1000's of others who are perfectly happy with it.

OK so I'm just playing the

a bit there as I personally would appose ALL forms of non-consentual body-mods for non-medical reasons and that includes kids body piercing.

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

"I think female genital mutilation takes many forms.

As you mentioned, the clitoris can be removed or the labia are cut off or the vaginal opening is sewn up.

All pretty gruesome and disgusting but so, in my opinion, is removing a boys foreskin for non medical reasons."

I dint think the two are comparable but I do agree that neither should be carried out unless medically advised.

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By *ngieandMrManCouple
over a year ago

hereford

And from a different angle, is it 'Jehova Witness' religion that refuses blood transfusion? A life saving necessity in our culture but a disgusting violation in another.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"And from a different angle, is it 'Jehova Witness' religion that refuses blood transfusion? A life saving necessity in our culture but a disgusting violation in another.

I believe they refuse all forms of treatment that originate from certain categories including transfusions and vaccinations and some types of medications. There was a big stir back in the 90s because the little girl from the poltergeist films got cancer and her parents refused to seek treatment for her because they believed that it was in god's hands. Frankly, our job as parents is to do what we believe is best for our children. That encompasses medical, cultural, and faith based decisions. I don't agree with fgm, but i see circumcision as vastly different and when my older son was born in the states i opted to have the procedure done in the hospital based on info given and personal discussions with people i knew who could provide insight. That's all we can do as humans. And the argument that ear piercing is mutilation astounds me, to be honest.

The medical advantages to circumcision have also been well documented, however people choose not to believe the studies. Similar to the vaccination debate.

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By *ngieandMrManCouple
over a year ago

hereford

"And the argument that ear piercing is mutilation astounds me, to be honest."

It could be suggested I'm stretching the point with that particular example but in principle it stands firm, which was basically my point.

Ear piercing is not painless, it creates a wound and it leaves (however small) a scar. It also introduces a real risk of an infection that would not otherwise occur. When an ear piercing is performed on a person who is not able to make an informed decision from themselves then it is indeed in law an assault.

No doubt parents who have their child's ears pierced don't see it as a form of abuse, assault etc. but it still remains that the child suffers pain and a minor mutilation of a part of their body. The child, if young enough has no choice, its effectively imposed on the them by their parent(s) and for what reason, for what purpose exactly? Simply because the parent(s) think its OK and acceptable... their society says its OK therefor it is.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

" their society says its OK therefor it is."

Yes. That is, quite frankly, the lens through which we view or lives and the decisions we make. Were you, for instance, American....a society which views ear piercing of young children differently your views would have been shaped in a different way meaning you may or may not have come to the same conclusion on the matter that you have.

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By *ngieandMrManCouple
over a year ago

hereford

" their society says its OK therefor it is.

YES... you are absolutely dead right there. Some folks would say, "Ear piercing, what's all the fuss? Nothing wrong with poking a hole in a babies earlobe and inserting a foreign object!" Equally, "Female castration, what's all the fuss? When I was a teenager I couldn't wait to have mine done as that would make me a proper women..."

Therefor in the event of imposing a law that says, 'You must not modify a persons body without their consent and they must be of minimum age 'x' then it must be applied to everything from what is being called Female Genital Mutilation to installing body piercing decorations on a child.

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

Many women victims are speaking out against fgm now and thankfully being listened to.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

" their society says its OK therefor it is.

wilst have just made the ear piercng argument on the other thread about this i do have to say that the two are far from comparable. If a child doesnt want earings in when they grows up they can simply remove them, the performnce of the ear is not impaired in anyway. The same cannot be said for females that have undergonge FGM.

Yes its a cultural thing but just because its always been does not been it always should be. there are many things that were done in this country that arent done now.

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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago

yumsville

"Just a quick point on this current hot topic in the media.

If female genital mutilation is being condemned by many, why is the Jewish tradition of removing a boys foreskin not also condemned by wider society?.

Surely that is mutilation too?"

FGM is slightly more in what it proposes to be. That being mutilation.

Often it's done by family members, often removing whole parts of the genitalia. Often without any medical knowledge.

Whilst circumcision in religion is well practiced, it is rare that anybody dies from it, and it is about the only thing practiced regularly on men.

Women do, however, regulary die from it such is the severity. FGM is not done for religious purpose, it could be for any number of reasons from the simple fact that she is a woman, to imposed judgement, to humiliation to name but a few reasons.

It is not only external - but often internal and is done to mutilate not promote faith-hood.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I can see your point but I think from is much more devastating and not done for religious but cultural reasons. FGM, even in its mildest forms will result in a significant impairment in function - sexual, menstrual and reproductive. Women can endure a lifetime of pain and maybe significantly more likely to die in childbirth, often in countries where maternal mortality is already comparatively low. The impact on victims lifetime health can be enormous.

Male circumcision while not recommended routinely for non medical reasons on the NHS, could be argued to be beneficial. The evidence suggests that circumcised males are less liable to a variety of infections including HIV, HPV and thus penile cancer.

I don't think you can view them the same.

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By *ngieandMrManCouple
over a year ago

hereford

"wilst have just made the ear piercng argument on the other thread about this i do have to say that the two are far from comparable."

In terms of severity no they don't compare. However, both are unnecessary, both carry health risk to a greater or lessor extent and both are often carried out without the informed consent of the person concerned. Therefor it is just WRONG and that's all there is to it.

Consider if you will... you are sat next to me. I then without your consent take hold of your earlobe with a forceps, push a cannula through the tissue and then insert a small metal rod. If I actually manged to get that far before you kicked seven shades of shit out of me, your next port of call would no doubt be the police. I would be arrested, charged under the heading of some type of assault and no doubt be sent to prison... so how can any one say its OK to pierce a childs ear?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Just out of curiosity, what about other procedures carried out without informed consent, like vaccinations?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Just out of curiosity, what about other procedures carried out without informed consent, like vaccinations?"

Parents are always required to give informed consent for their children to be vaccinated.

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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago

yumsville

"Just out of curiosity, what about other procedures carried out without informed consent, like vaccinations?"

it isn't mutilation

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By *ngieandMrManCouple
over a year ago

hereford

"Just out of curiosity, what about other procedures carried out without informed consent, like vaccinations?

it isn't mutilation "

That's a very fair and valid comment. However, it raises the question of 'intent'. The 'intent' of a vaccination with or without consent, the intent is for the good.

So now when it comes to genital modifications on the grounds of religious belief the society conducting such procedures or should I say 'religious ritual', they too (presumably) also believe they are doing it for the good and the benefit of the victim, sorry the person concerned.

Don't get me wrong, I'm totally against it. I even begrudge the fact I was Christened when I was a baby, I had no choice, my parents did it because society told them to. I might not have been here to say that as when I was about 10 years old I nearly lost my life to a mixture of bleeding to death and drowning in my own blood after a botched tonsillectomy. Me, like probably millions of others had their tonsils ripped out by the medical fraternity because they 'believed' (at the time) it was the cure to most minor ills! It was, for the greater good! I was mutilated without my informed consent (I had to do as I was told) but its ok because the people involved meant well.

This doesn't happen anymore thanks to education and learning. So perhaps people who are practicing body modifications without consent, or by force, maybe they need education more so than punishment. Punishment for what they probably see as just doing the right thing?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Just out of curiosity, what about other procedures carried out without informed consent, like vaccinations?"

that's done for the benefit of the child though, like removal of the foreskin for medical reasons

Noone wants to see to see a child ill or in pain and some ill kids are to young to be asked if they want treatment so as adults we have to make that decision on their behalf

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By *ncorMan
over a year ago

Ipswich

A very good debate.

But.

Conclusion is. FGM is wrong.

Circumcision is tolerated.

Ear piercing just happens.

Tonsillectomy for medical reasons.

Out of all if these. Who makes the decision ?

The owner of the body. The parent. The medic. Or some prat who is communicating with god ?

Education is the best way.

In my opinion.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"A very good debate.

But.

Conclusion is. FGM is wrong.

Circumcision is tolerated.

Ear piercing just happens.

Tonsillectomy for medical reasons.

Out of all if these. Who makes the decision ?

The owner of the body. The parent. The medic. Or some prat who is communicating with god ?

Education is the best way.

In my opinion. "

well said

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By * Busty HotwifeCouple
over a year ago

Bradford

"Just a quick point on this current hot topic in the media.

If female genital mutilation is being condemned by many, why is the Jewish tradition of removing a boys foreskin not also condemned by wider society?.

Surely that is mutilation too?"

Why are you targeting Jews when Muslims do it too for 'religious' reasons? Then again, many folk do it for other reasons outside religions but you're not targeting them you bigoted oik.

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By *ngieandMrManCouple
over a year ago

hereford

Education is the right answer to all questions and resolutions to issues (probably). Only problem is, some folks are more difficult to educate than others.

To all the young girls who are happy with with their fanny sewed up looking forward to it being cut open on their wedding day, they would see what happens here as hell on Earth and the route to eternal damnation!

Not all victims are victims until someone, or some society tells them they are victims.

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By *ngieandMrManCouple
over a year ago

hereford

"Just a quick point on this current hot topic in the media.

If female genital mutilation is being condemned by many, why is the Jewish tradition of removing a boys foreskin not also condemned by wider society?.

Surely that is mutilation too?

Why are you targeting Jews when Muslims do it too for 'religious' reasons? Then again, many folk do it for other reasons outside religions but you're not targeting them you bigoted oik. "

Forgive me, none of my business but perhaps he hadn't considered, or didn't know other religious bodies besides the Jewish belief partake of ritual circumcision. To be honest, its not something I've thought that much about or researched.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Good to see some brains talking for a change parking the sex bit for a while - well done folks

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Neither are ideal but to equate the 2 makes the OP look misguided at best or misogyny at worst?!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

OMG i am sooo squeemish this thread had me cringing.

mutilation in females. In some extremes the vagina lips are removed and the clitoris is ripped out. Whereas on a lesser level the vaginal lips are abraded and the lips are sewn

traumatised (facepalm)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't agree with removing a boys foreskin for none medical reasons let me just point that out, but what they do to girls is a far bigger and harmful ordeal for the child than the removal of the for skin "

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Just to add that not only is FGM traumatic, painful and completely unnecessary for the women and girls involved, some cases have lead to fatalities where the bleeding couldn't be stopped.

While I feel circumcision is unnecessary, it's just skin. FGM is the removal of far more than skin.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What everyone is missing here (possibly not everyone i didn't read every comment) is that female genital mutilation would never be something a woman would choose to have without pretty serious propaganda or brain washing of sorts. A circumcision, ear piercing etc these are changes we make through choice or necessity as our preferences dictate. Female Genital Mutilation is just that a form of mutilation, a form of control and a way of keeping women subdued and obedient. It is not in my philosophy personally to force our views into other societies, however, I certainly do not agree with fgm!

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

"Just a quick point on this current hot topic in the media.

If female genital mutilation is being condemned by many, why is the Jewish tradition of removing a boys foreskin not also condemned by wider society?.

Surely that is mutilation too?

Why are you targeting Jews when Muslims do it too for 'religious' reasons? Then again, many folk do it for other reasons outside religions but you're not targeting them you bigoted oik. "

I'm pretty sure circumcision is widespread in the states too. There is no bigotry in the original post the guy just stated a fact. The response was rude and untrue.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

[Removed by poster at 29/07/14 08:24:43]

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By *LCoupleCouple
over a year ago

Norfolk

Personally (and this is my personal opinion) I don't agree with FGM or circumcision. Obviously FGM is the more barbaric of the 2 but I equally believe that given the choice most men would not opt to be circumcised unless there was a very good reason. When I was in my 20's I had an issue with my foreskin tightening up, which lead to it splitting during sex and being extremely painful. When I was told by the doctors that I would need to be circumcised I was devastated. Luckily I managed to get away with just having my foreskin medically spilt. It left me with a slightly lumpy foreskin (from scar tissue) but I'd rather have that then to of lost my foreskin altogether.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"And from a different angle, is it 'Jehova Witness' religion that refuses blood transfusion? A life saving necessity in our culture but a disgusting violation in another.

I was totally against blood transfusions

Even up to the point I actually needed four to save my life . Even now makes me feel sick that I had them .

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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago

yumsville

I think the OP has left the building

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