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"So one of the things that has always bothered me about swinging is the way that the scene largely caters for the sexual preferences of men. That’s not particularly a criticism, but rather a statement because swinging, as with most things when it comes to sex, is a reflection of the society we find ourselves living in where male pleasure is prioritized over female pleasure. This manifests itself not only in attitudes, but also in language. And I think that one of the clearest places you can see it is in the wording we use surrounding MSM (men who have sex with men). When we talk about “bi threesomes” on a site like this most people will understand that what it meant is a threesome with at least two men where the men will be having some kind of sexual contact. Very few people will assume that (or ask if) it means a threesome with at least two women having sexual contact. The same is true of bi nights at swing clubs. We all know that a bi night is where men go to play with other men (I know, I’ve been to enough of them over the years). It’s not a night aimed at women looking for other women. The language is designed to tell men if they are welcome or not in this place and describes if they’ll find pleasure. It tells straight men that they’re not likely to find pleasure here and it tells bisexual men that it’s aimed at them. Where does it leave me as a bisexual woman? In all honesty, feeling like my desire for pleasure is not being either recognized or prioritized. There’s no equivalent words I can use to find my own fun in this space because the words have been co-opted by men. Now I suspect that this is complicated because the wording surrounding “bi nights” and “bi threesomes” (etc) has grown out of homophobia and the fact that swinging originated from a very heteronormative place, but still in 2024 it means that we are prioritizing male sexuality (both straight and non-straight) while ignoring that women may like to use this language to prioritize and find their own encounters too. Now - it’s really important to understand I’m not talking solely about the language and actions surrounding MSM encounters, but about all male-prioritizing swinging language and actions. If even the language we use as a community minimizes female sexuality and pleasure, then why would women feel like it is a place for them to feel like they’re going to be able to prioritize their own pleasure? And of course while we centre male sexuality in our language and actions we also create an environment that encourages the entitled behavior that we see from men towards women every minute of every day on sites like this and in clubs. Of course they’re entitled - both society and our community tells them that they can/should be putting their pleasure first. I need to wrap up this post because it’s 5am and it’s no doubt very long by now (I’m on my phone; I can’t check). So I’ll just say - maybe if we want more women in our community we need to decenter men and male pleasure. And maybe we could start doing that in our words and the way that we describe people and encounters." I don’t think it’s male centric catering for their preferences at all. Women don’t need bi nights because any club night is bi night for us if we want that. It’s the male bi nights that suggest that on those nights, bi male play is acceptable. It’s acceptable for women at any time. There are a lot of women who wouldn’t attend a male bi night because at best it’s not their thing, and at worst they find it disgusting. With regards to wording, you have mmf, mfm, ffm, fmf. They tick all the bi/not bi threesomes. | |||
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"So one of the things that has always bothered me about swinging is the way that the scene largely caters for the sexual preferences of men. That’s not particularly a criticism, but rather a statement because swinging, as with most things when it comes to sex, is a reflection of the society we find ourselves living in where male pleasure is prioritized over female pleasure. This manifests itself not only in attitudes, but also in language. And I think that one of the clearest places you can see it is in the wording we use surrounding MSM (men who have sex with men). When we talk about “bi threesomes” on a site like this most people will understand that what it meant is a threesome with at least two men where the men will be having some kind of sexual contact. Very few people will assume that (or ask if) it means a threesome with at least two women having sexual contact. The same is true of bi nights at swing clubs. We all know that a bi night is where men go to play with other men (I know, I’ve been to enough of them over the years). It’s not a night aimed at women looking for other women. The language is designed to tell men if they are welcome or not in this place and describes if they’ll find pleasure. It tells straight men that they’re not likely to find pleasure here and it tells bisexual men that it’s aimed at them. Where does it leave me as a bisexual woman? In all honesty, feeling like my desire for pleasure is not being either recognized or prioritized. There’s no equivalent words I can use to find my own fun in this space because the words have been co-opted by men. Now I suspect that this is complicated because the wording surrounding “bi nights” and “bi threesomes” (etc) has grown out of homophobia and the fact that swinging originated from a very heteronormative place, but still in 2024 it means that we are prioritizing male sexuality (both straight and non-straight) while ignoring that women may like to use this language to prioritize and find their own encounters too. Now - it’s really important to understand I’m not talking solely about the language and actions surrounding MSM encounters, but about all male-prioritizing swinging language and actions. If even the language we use as a community minimizes female sexuality and pleasure, then why would women feel like it is a place for them to feel like they’re going to be able to prioritize their own pleasure? And of course while we centre male sexuality in our language and actions we also create an environment that encourages the entitled behavior that we see from men towards women every minute of every day on sites like this and in clubs. Of course they’re entitled - both society and our community tells them that they can/should be putting their pleasure first. I need to wrap up this post because it’s 5am and it’s no doubt very long by now (I’m on my phone; I can’t check). So I’ll just say - maybe if we want more women in our community we need to decenter men and male pleasure. And maybe we could start doing that in our words and the way that we describe people and encounters. I don’t think it’s male centric catering for their preferences at all. Women don’t need bi nights because any club night is bi night for us if we want that. It’s the male bi nights that suggest that on those nights, bi male play is acceptable. It’s acceptable for women at any time. There are a lot of women who wouldn’t attend a male bi night because at best it’s not their thing, and at worst they find it disgusting. With regards to wording, you have mmf, mfm, ffm, fmf. They tick all the bi/not bi threesomes." I think youre reenforcing the OPs point here | |||
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"So one of the things that has always bothered me about swinging is the way that the scene largely caters for the sexual preferences of men. That’s not particularly a criticism, but rather a statement because swinging, as with most things when it comes to sex, is a reflection of the society we find ourselves living in where male pleasure is prioritized over female pleasure. This manifests itself not only in attitudes, but also in language. And I think that one of the clearest places you can see it is in the wording we use surrounding MSM (men who have sex with men). When we talk about “bi threesomes” on a site like this most people will understand that what it meant is a threesome with at least two men where the men will be having some kind of sexual contact. Very few people will assume that (or ask if) it means a threesome with at least two women having sexual contact. The same is true of bi nights at swing clubs. We all know that a bi night is where men go to play with other men (I know, I’ve been to enough of them over the years). It’s not a night aimed at women looking for other women. The language is designed to tell men if they are welcome or not in this place and describes if they’ll find pleasure. It tells straight men that they’re not likely to find pleasure here and it tells bisexual men that it’s aimed at them. Where does it leave me as a bisexual woman? In all honesty, feeling like my desire for pleasure is not being either recognized or prioritized. There’s no equivalent words I can use to find my own fun in this space because the words have been co-opted by men. Now I suspect that this is complicated because the wording surrounding “bi nights” and “bi threesomes” (etc) has grown out of homophobia and the fact that swinging originated from a very heteronormative place, but still in 2024 it means that we are prioritizing male sexuality (both straight and non-straight) while ignoring that women may like to use this language to prioritize and find their own encounters too. Now - it’s really important to understand I’m not talking solely about the language and actions surrounding MSM encounters, but about all male-prioritizing swinging language and actions. If even the language we use as a community minimizes female sexuality and pleasure, then why would women feel like it is a place for them to feel like they’re going to be able to prioritize their own pleasure? And of course while we centre male sexuality in our language and actions we also create an environment that encourages the entitled behavior that we see from men towards women every minute of every day on sites like this and in clubs. Of course they’re entitled - both society and our community tells them that they can/should be putting their pleasure first. I need to wrap up this post because it’s 5am and it’s no doubt very long by now (I’m on my phone; I can’t check). So I’ll just say - maybe if we want more women in our community we need to decenter men and male pleasure. And maybe we could start doing that in our words and the way that we describe people and encounters. I don’t think it’s male centric catering for their preferences at all. Women don’t need bi nights because any club night is bi night for us if we want that. It’s the male bi nights that suggest that on those nights, bi male play is acceptable. It’s acceptable for women at any time. There are a lot of women who wouldn’t attend a male bi night because at best it’s not their thing, and at worst they find it disgusting. With regards to wording, you have mmf, mfm, ffm, fmf. They tick all the bi/not bi threesomes. I think youre reenforcing the OPs point here" To be fair, having read through again I think you’re right. | |||
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"I think the terms 'wife swapping ' and 'wife sharing' don't help " __ We find those appalling. Implies a woman is an object to be shared, traded, swapped. | |||
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" When we talk about “bi threesomes” on a site like this most people will understand that what it meant is a threesome with at least two men where the men will be having some kind of sexual contact. Very few people will assume that (or ask if) it means a threesome with at least two women having sexual contact... The same is true of bi nights at swing clubs. We all know that a bi night is where men go to play with other men (I know, I’ve been to enough of them over the years). It’s not a night aimed at women looking for other women... " __ Bi threesomes: I can't agree that most people would understand it the way you do. We are straight, so we would never use those words because they mean nothing without clarifying who's involved and who is bi or not bi in the threesome. Now, if you say instead that "most people that are bi will understand..." then I (Mr.) can start to see your point. Bi nights: again, we would have thought it's a night for bi people, men or women. But the way you described it, I agree with you, it implies it's geared for bi men. Fair question from another replier... What would be the name to use? In other words, when I read your thread I think I disagreed with your argument not because I'm a man, but because neither of us are bi and so we see things from our own restricted point of view. Interesting thread OP, I wish there were more threads like this to make Fabbers think and not so many "who loves a 69" dull threads. | |||
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" Women don’t need bi nights because any club night is bi night for us if we want that. It’s the male bi nights that suggest that on those nights, bi male play is acceptable. It’s acceptable for women at any time." So here's the difference. At a night aimed at male bisexuality, it's a good bet that almost every man there is bisexual and potentially up for playing with other men. If they're not bisexual, they probably shouldn't be there. According to the national office for statistics, just under 2% of women self-declare as bisexual. That means that at a swing night with 100 women attending, I may have to ask 98 other women if they're bisexual before finding one that is. (That's before we throw out the fact that women are 'expected' to play with other women on the swing scene even if they're not bisexual.) | |||
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"I think the terms 'wife swapping ' and 'wife sharing' don't help " No. We don't see the terms 'husband swapping' and 'husband sharing' because men are not seen as objects to be shared, leant, or traded. | |||
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