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"This is a major part of why I gave up on the BDSM scene. There’s an awful lot of snotty elitists who look down on others. The other part is the lack of wanting to learn and adhere to safe & consensual. " Can agree with this. | |||
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 hella awkward.
Of course, they could also just have gotten off on sitting around for people to look at. If that's the case then let them crack on  | |||
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"Once I (accidentally) attended a munch which was about 12 people sitting around a table, dressed to the nines but unable to make small talk hella awkward."I’ve had a very similar experience. I went to my first and only one after speaking a woman who was attending and she invited me along. I turned up dressed as I always would, not really realising that everyone would be all dressed up. Immediately it felt like I was back at school seeing their facial reactions. I stayed for about 90 minutes and about 3 people spoke. The rest of the time they’d all be sat on their phones. The best thing was, I found the group on another site a few days later and they were all talking about how much of a great night it was.  | |||
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We were in a club the other week and the dungeon master was in there with a woman and he had his equipment all over the place as if to say, this room is mine…
Wanted the audience but didn’t want to share the audience  | |||
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"This is a major part of why I gave up on the BDSM scene. There’s an awful lot of snotty elitists who look down on others. The other part is the lack of wanting to learn and adhere to safe & consensual. " I don’t know many BDSM practitioners who still use SSC. Most areas are teaching RACK or PRICK. (Risk aware consensual kink or personal responsibility in consensual kink.) | |||
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"I don’t know many BDSM practitioners who still use SSC. Most areas are teaching RACK or PRICK. (Risk aware consensual kink or personal responsibility in consensual kink.) " I'm really wary of people that push "PRICK" because I've seen it used a LOT to "victim blame" submissives and push the narrative that a Dom doesn't need to be responsible for the well-being (particularly the mental health well-being) of submissives in their care (sort of a "well you asked for it"). I'm sure not everyone uses it that way but it's the only context I've seen it used meaningfully. That said, the SSC/RACK argument is basically the "airplane on a treadmill" of the BDSM world and I think that's largely been accepted now (e.g. you'll see people use both on their profiles). | |||
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Kink is very different to different people, but it's a shame the people forget we are all people at the end of the day and being nice to each other would make the whole damned thing a lovely place to be 
But hey, like most subcultures, there are wonderful people out there, they can just take a little bit of finding | |||
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"I don’t know many BDSM practitioners who still use SSC. Most areas are teaching RACK or PRICK. (Risk aware consensual kink or personal responsibility in consensual kink.) I'm really wary of people that push "PRICK" because I've seen it used a LOT to "victim blame" submissives and push the narrative that a Dom doesn't need to be responsible for the well-being (particularly the mental health well-being) of submissives in their care (sort of a "well you asked for it"). I'm sure not everyone uses it that way but it's the only context I've seen it used meaningfully. That said, the SSC/RACK argument is basically the "airplane on a treadmill" of the BDSM world and I think that's largely been accepted now (e.g. you'll see people use both on their profiles)."SSC v RACK is in my opinion nothing like the airplane on a treadmill as nothing we do can be considered Safe or Sane which is why RACK gained prominence. People continue to use SSC as its a case of the weakest link, and if all you know is SSC then at least its a start. As for PRICK being used to victim blame the sub, I can counter that with RACK being used to blame the Dom(me)/Top as the sub/bottom absolves themselves of all responsibility. Personal Responsibility doesn’t just mean what affects you its also about taking into account the person you are playing with. Anyone that uses PRICK to absolve themselves of the responsibility of their play mate would also do that under SSC or RACK - unless I am missing something about how those explicitly state you must consider your play mate. The issue about personal responsibility is that people have a responsibility to themselves to ensure that what they are doing and who is doing it is capable, skilled, knowledgeable, considering risks etc. and not just doing what they are told or expecting someone to do as they are told. Ultimately though, I don’t care what acronym people use, as long as they engage in safe play, consider risks and don’t be an abusive dick. | |||
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"This is a major part of why I gave up on the BDSM scene. There’s an awful lot of snotty elitists who look down on others. The other part is the lack of wanting to learn and adhere to safe & consensual. I don’t know many BDSM practitioners who still use SSC. Most areas are teaching RACK or PRICK. (Risk aware consensual kink or personal responsibility in consensual kink.) "  | |||
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"Oh and I push PRICK over SSC and RACK hence why when its mentioned that some people use it to abuse others I do take an interest." I think what I (M) would say as a "Dom" is that a submissive is welcome to use PRICK to inform their role as a bottom, but ultimately the buck stops with the top - e.g. if the bottom "consents" to a particularly hard scene but the top isn't confident that the bottom can handle such a scene then it's their responsibility to ensure that, as best they reasonably can (and also to monitor the bottom throughout the scene). I have refused to meet people on this basis (e.g. if they say they have "no limits", which is a classic red flag) and I will wind back a scene if I'm not feeling confident (because frustration is preferable to trauma). In short: if I'm in charge, I'm ultimately also to blame. I think that should go for anyone with power (inside or outside of the scene). And honestly I suspect we're talking on the same terms here - I've just seen PRICK used to justify violating this, and it's possible you haven't. SSC never really meant "only do safe things", which is what I mean by the comparison. I don't think there's anyone out there that really thinks anything can be entirely safe - so you get this weird argument where one side insists you should never do things that are "unsafe" and the other insists that nothing is safe. In practice, "safe" is relative and negotiated. | |||
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"Oh and I push PRICK over SSC and RACK hence why when its mentioned that some people use it to abuse others I do take an interest. I think what I (M) would say as a "Dom" is that a submissive is welcome to use PRICK to inform their role as a bottom, but ultimately the buck stops with the top - e.g. if the bottom "consents" to a particularly hard scene but the top isn't confident that the bottom can handle such a scene then it's their responsibility to ensure that, as best they reasonably can (and also to monitor the bottom throughout the scene). I have refused to meet people on this basis (e.g. if they say they have "no limits", which is a classic red flag) and I will wind back a scene if I'm not feeling confident (because frustration is preferable to trauma). In short: if I'm in charge, I'm ultimately also to blame. I think that should go for anyone with power (inside or outside of the scene). And honestly I suspect we're talking on the same terms here - I've just seen PRICK used to justify violating this, and it's possible you haven't. SSC never really meant "only do safe things", which is what I mean by the comparison. I don't think there's anyone out there that really thinks anything can be entirely safe - so you get this weird argument where one side insists you should never do things that are "unsafe" and the other insists that nothing is safe. In practice, "safe" is relative and negotiated." I would suggest an alternative view. As a manager I am responsible for my staff. But if I am not informed by that member of staff they have issues, I may be responsible for them but if I have acted properly and in accordance with normal procedure unless they were clearly having issues am not at fault if there is no assessable feedback. Everyone has a responsibility for their own well being, and to communicate how they feel, what works and what does not work. Any responsible Dom, will hold back if they feel the sub can't take anymore despite what the sub says. But that is not a case of being a good Dom, it is a case of one's own risk matrix. In my experience for everyone I stopped early and were happy, there is someone who has claimed they could have taken and wanted more. The issue then becomes one of what takes priority the word of the submissive or the view of the dom. I take the view that because I am not mind reader, I take the word of the submissive until it falls out of my own personal risk matrix. | |||
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"I would suggest an alternative view. As a manager I am responsible for my staff. But if I am not informed by that member of staff they have issues, I may be responsible for them but if I have acted properly and in accordance with normal procedure unless they were clearly having issues am not at fault if there is no assessable feedback." So, I'll preface this with an assumption that we both seek to ensure we're not violating consent in practice - this is an abstract discussion, rather than a critique of each other. But on the metaphor of management, I would say that's a sign of a bad manager. Procedure is necessary but not sufficient; managers should seek to be proactive, and understand problems in their teams before they are surfaced in an uncontrolled manner. There is a hierarchy, and the responsibility of anyone "under" anyone else is only delegated - ultimately, it is still vested in the manager. On loan, if you will. Good managers delegate responsibility, but still own that responsibility - that is, the buck stops with them. Applying that to power exchange, the top ensures the bottom understands their responsibility as a bottom, and then takes responsibility for the bottom's failures - because at the end of the day they're the one in overall control. As a practical example - if someone waltzes up to me in a club and tells me to hit them with a cane as hard as I can, and then I do that, and it turns out that's much harder than they thought they were consenting to - that's on me, not them. As much as it was inadvisable for them to ask for it, it was my responsibility as the top to ensure they could meaningfully consent in the first place; they shouldn't be expected to take "personal responsibility" for their naive request. | |||
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"Was at a club last night and there were a Dom and sub sat like two superior spiders at the head of the dungeon. Sucked every bit of fun energy out of the room. Think B/d’s play is stunning, adore D/s relationships. Hate BDSM fun suckers who suck energy out of a room. Go and be elitist at themed nights where you can lamppost piss all you want. I remember well why I came off the American site. Could almost be upset. " Can't stand those people. I love BDSM, but dislike those who put themselves above everybody else and expect everyone to adhere to their own standards, protocol, contracts, etc. They suck all fun out of the play. | |||
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"Was at a club last night and there were a Dom and sub sat like two superior spiders at the head of the dungeon. Sucked every bit of fun energy out of the room. Think B/d’s play is stunning, adore D/s relationships. Hate BDSM fun suckers who suck energy out of a room. Go and be elitist at themed nights where you can lamppost piss all you want. I remember well why I came off the American site. Could almost be upset. Can't stand those people. I love BDSM, but dislike those who put themselves above everybody else and expect everyone to adhere to their own standards, protocol, contracts, etc. They suck all fun out of the play." ah the one twoo way merchants happily dont get many of them at the events we attend and largley leave them to themselves . | |||
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"I would suggest an alternative view. As a manager I am responsible for my staff. But if I am not informed by that member of staff they have issues, I may be responsible for them but if I have acted properly and in accordance with normal procedure unless they were clearly having issues am not at fault if there is no assessable feedback. So, I'll preface this with an assumption that we both seek to ensure we're not violating consent in practice - this is an abstract discussion, rather than a critique of each other. But on the metaphor of management, I would say that's a sign of a bad manager. Procedure is necessary but not sufficient; managers should seek to be proactive, and understand problems in their teams before they are surfaced in an uncontrolled manner. There is a hierarchy, and the responsibility of anyone "under" anyone else is only delegated - ultimately, it is still vested in the manager. On loan, if you will. Good managers delegate responsibility, but still own that responsibility - that is, the buck stops with them. Applying that to power exchange, the top ensures the bottom understands their responsibility as a bottom, and then takes responsibility for the bottom's failures - because at the end of the day they're the one in overall control. As a practical example - if someone waltzes up to me in a club and tells me to hit them with a cane as hard as I can, and then I do that, and it turns out that's much harder than they thought they were consenting to - that's on me, not them. As much as it was inadvisable for them to ask for it, it was my responsibility as the top to ensure they could meaningfully consent in the first place; they shouldn't be expected to take "personal responsibility" for their naive request." I would disagree in the management example, because management is an art not a science and people are unpredictablw and erratic. A manager can be as proactive as they can be,but it does not make them a mind reader. I would suggest the example you use is a not on all fours with point and hitting them hard is a mistake only some new to BDSM would make. As you suggest most doms with experience would not interact with a stranger without a full and proper discussion. Also it is also common practice to build up slowly to test people's tolerance. The example I would suggest is having had a full proper and negotiation and discussion and setting out the context of what you are doing to the new person , you get the response, that is fine by them they just want you to do your scene and they will tell you when it is unacceptable. Or, the situation where there is a safeword and they don't use it, but at the time they show no visible signs of physical or emotional distress. I don't believe dominants are omnipotent mind readers, and unless the submissive is in subspace there is an obligation on the submissive to be honest and clearly comnunicate. These days unless it is "CNC" type scene I don't bother with safewords. I tell people if it hurts or feel awkwards, or you don't like it tell me and we can adjust the scene. Clearly you keep an eye for distress and micro signs, but it is a judgment call not science. However, it seems we won't agree, and I don't believe in prolonged debates. We have both put positions twice and not agreed. The key thing is that the views are out there and submissives can make a decision as part of their education as to which approach they prefer. Thank you for debating in good spirit. Apologies to Licentious for hijacking the thread. | |||
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"I would suggest an alternative view. As a manager I am responsible for my staff. But if I am not informed by that member of staff they have issues, I may be responsible for them but if I have acted properly and in accordance with normal procedure unless they were clearly having issues am not at fault if there is no assessable feedback. So, I'll preface this with an assumption that we both seek to ensure we're not violating consent in practice - this is an abstract discussion, rather than a critique of each other. But on the metaphor of management, I would say that's a sign of a bad manager. Procedure is necessary but not sufficient; managers should seek to be proactive, and understand problems in their teams before they are surfaced in an uncontrolled manner. There is a hierarchy, and the responsibility of anyone "under" anyone else is only delegated - ultimately, it is still vested in the manager. On loan, if you will. Good managers delegate responsibility, but still own that responsibility - that is, the buck stops with them. Applying that to power exchange, the top ensures the bottom understands their responsibility as a bottom, and then takes responsibility for the bottom's failures - because at the end of the day they're the one in overall control. As a practical example - if someone waltzes up to me in a club and tells me to hit them with a cane as hard as I can, and then I do that, and it turns out that's much harder than they thought they were consenting to - that's on me, not them. As much as it was inadvisable for them to ask for it, it was my responsibility as the top to ensure they could meaningfully consent in the first place; they shouldn't be expected to take "personal responsibility" for their naive request. I would disagree in the management example, because management is an art not a science and people are unpredictablw and erratic. A manager can be as proactive as they can be,but it does not make them a mind reader. I would suggest the example you use is a not on all fours with point and hitting them hard is a mistake only some new to BDSM would make. As you suggest most doms with experience would not interact with a stranger without a full and proper discussion. Also it is also common practice to build up slowly to test people's tolerance. The example I would suggest is having had a full proper and negotiation and discussion and setting out the context of what you are doing to the new person , you get the response, that is fine by them they just want you to do your scene and they will tell you when it is unacceptable. Or, the situation where there is a safeword and they don't use it, but at the time they show no visible signs of physical or emotional distress. I don't believe dominants are omnipotent mind readers, and unless the submissive is in subspace there is an obligation on the submissive to be honest and clearly comnunicate. These days unless it is "CNC" type scene I don't bother with safewords. I tell people if it hurts or feel awkwards, or you don't like it tell me and we can adjust the scene. Clearly you keep an eye for distress and micro signs, but it is a judgment call not science. However, it seems we won't agree, and I don't believe in prolonged debates. We have both put positions twice and not agreed. The key thing is that the views are out there and submissives can make a decision as part of their education as to which approach they prefer. Thank you for debating in good spirit. Apologies to Licentious for hijacking the thread." No problem, I like open respectful debate. However, there are elements on this thread that has me wanting to say, ‘I rest my case m’lord’. However, there | |||
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"Kind of just wish we could get the purests out of the swing clubs dungeons, Pandora’s dungeon was always full. Now it’s not. Well not for us. We had a Mfff that was stunning fun, loads of respectful people, being invited or not. As been said to me, the purest don’t own the space. Let people have fun, learn what involves subspace, how to creat safe drop space. Not be tutted on by disrespecting closed minded… not going to fill in the blanks. Please Pandora’s, do not take this as disrespect to the club, lucky you have a number of fet rooms. Favourite club." Surely there is no 'one size' fits all? Why would people be tutting? Its putting me off visiting a Club BDSM night in honesty | |||
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"Kind of just wish we could get the purests out of the swing clubs dungeons, Pandora’s dungeon was always full. Now it’s not. Well not for us. We had a Mfff that was stunning fun, loads of respectful people, being invited or not. As been said to me, the purest don’t own the space. Let people have fun, learn what involves subspace, how to creat safe drop space. Not be tutted on by disrespecting closed minded… not going to fill in the blanks. Please Pandora’s, do not take this as disrespect to the club, lucky you have a number of fet rooms. Favourite club. Surely there is no 'one size' fits all? Why would people be tutting? Its putting me off visiting a Club BDSM night in honesty "It was a swinging party night of probably 200+ | |||
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