FabSwingers.com forum: Kink shaming

By *ntrepid Explorers OP Couple
over a year ago

Birmingham

What's the difference between expressing your opinion and shaming people?

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion. But when that "opinion" is that someone else's sexual preferences are objectively disgusting, well... that's kink shaming right?

It seems logical to point out that some "kinks" absolutely should be shamed in our society, and typically those "kinks" are criminalised in law. There are other examples which are not in law, potentially due to laws lagging behind society, or being otherwise to vague to be codified etc... But from those points back through to the "vanilla" space, it's clear that not all kinks are inherently valid and deserve being credence.

I have fairly strong personal feelings towards some activities people do here, but it's very much a "You go do your thing, a long long way from us" scenario, and usually one left in my head at that. Others seem to have far less problem stating that some act or other is wrong, not a valid kink, just ... wrong. Caveating these comments with "just my opinion" doesn't seem to me to be a meaningful thing to say, and maybe leaves people thinking it's fine to be offensive, as long as they put a "disclaimer" on it. #justsaying.

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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

There’s a world of difference between saying ‘I don’t like that’ and say ‘ew, that’s gross’. They are both opinions but one is a value judgement and placing negative emphasis on the subject.

The phrase “your kink isn’t my kink but that’s ok” is key.

Also, I’d say that your OP is still carrying levels of judgement in it. There are quite a few kinks that could be punished by law; flogging is assault for example, yet pretty common, so I’m not sure that your comments carry your intent correctly

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By *stellaWoman
over a year ago

London

"There’s a world of difference between saying ‘I don’t like that’ and say ‘ew, that’s gross’. They are both opinions but one is a value judgement and placing negative emphasis on the subject.

The phrase “your kink isn’t my kink but that’s ok” is key.

Just wondering, is it technically assault if proven to be consensual?

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By *ntrepid Explorers OP Couple
over a year ago

Birmingham

The phrase “your kink isn’t my kink but that’s ok” is key.

Not sure how you're reading that, but my editing may have been muddled. I was just thinking of people who say *every* sexual preference is wonderful and personal, when various laws 99.99%+ of the population approve of, suggest otherwise. Everything has it's limits, as moveable as that target can feel.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Is your personal perspective of kink shaming worse than shame shaming then?

Hate is hate, however you dresses it up, right?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The phrase “your kink isn’t my kink but that’s ok” is key.

Just wondering, is it technically assault if proven to be consensual?"

Yes it is. You can't consent to being assaulted so the law actually doesn't work in favour of those that practice impact play.

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By *acey_RedWoman
over a year ago

Liverpool

Personally when it comes to kinks I see it as opinions are about yourself, shaming is when you make blanket negative comments about a kink or the people into it.

For example:

I don't like x.

X would make me uncomfortable.

I personally would find doing x disgusting.

I don’t understand why people like x.

Fine

X is disgusting.

People who like x are disgusting.

There is something wrong with people who like x.

Liking x is wrong.

Shaming

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By *uriousscouserWoman
over a year ago

Wirral

I've done some pretty weird stuff in my time and I've been judged for some of it.

Someone saying "I wouldn't do that" or "it doesn't appeal at all/sounds grim/bit weird" to me is an opinion. Someone saying "that's wrong/you're wrong for enjoying it/that's offensive" is, in my mind, kink shaming.

So as an example:

DD/LG. Not illegal, not immoral. I have tried it but couldn't get along with it (I started giggling every time I said "daddy" which spoiled the mood somewhat).

I don't really understand the dynamic, because it didn't speak to me and felt uncomfortable when I was trying to play into it.

I don't find it weird that it would appeal to someone else and I don't find them weird for enjoying it. If it works for someone then more power to them for finding something they enjoy.

The fact I don't enjoy something doesn't mean that nobody else should enjoy it either. As long as I'm not expected to join in with something that doesn't appeal then it's none of my damn business what anyone else enjoys or doesn't!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The phrase “your kink isn’t my kink but that’s ok” is key.

Just wondering, is it technically assault if proven to be consensual?"

Yes, good point: how would that compare against something like a sports massage, which is pretty brutal and usually quite painful?

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By *stellaWoman
over a year ago

London

The phrase “your kink isn’t my kink but that’s ok” is key.

Just wondering, is it technically assault if proven to be consensual?

Yes it is. You can't consent to being assaulted so the law actually doesn't work in favour of those that practice impact play. "

Ahhh thanks for clarifying.

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By *ntrepid Explorers OP Couple
over a year ago

Birmingham

The phrase “your kink isn’t my kink but that’s ok” is key.

Just wondering, is it technically assault if proven to be consensual?"

I suppose there's a lot more discussions about that if you shift it from flogging to penetration. People can be coerced into consent at the time, but still can be legitimately seen to have been *the-r-word* victims. Oddly was just listening to a podcast asking what criminal charges Kurt Russel could've been charged within when he imprisoned Goldie Hawn in Overboard. She consents to live with him due to her memory loss. So she was happy at the time, but under false, unknown, pretenses...

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By *acey_RedWoman
over a year ago

Liverpool

The phrase “your kink isn’t my kink but that’s ok” is key.

Just wondering, is it technically assault if proven to be consensual?"

The law is sketchy about whether its possible to consent to assault.

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By *stellaWoman
over a year ago

London

The phrase “your kink isn’t my kink but that’s ok” is key.

Just wondering, is it technically assault if proven to be consensual?

The law is sketchy about whether its possible to consent to assault. "

Yep just found this info and the leading case law - R v Brown dismissed the defence of consent, meaning that the men charged of sexual offences could not defend their actions. It has been pointed out that people can consent to activities such as boxing and body piercing, which also result in pain, but apparently cannot consent to BDSM.

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By *ntrepid Explorers OP Couple
over a year ago

Birmingham

"Personally when it comes to kinks I see it as opinions are about yourself, shaming is when you make blanket negative comments about a kink or the people into it.

For example:

I don't like x.

X would make me uncomfortable.

I personally would find doing x disgusting.

I don’t understand why people like x.

Fine

X is disgusting.

People who like x are disgusting.

There is something wrong with people who like x.

Liking x is wrong.

Shaming"

"I personally would find doing x disgusting."

Would you ever hesitate to say that? I wonder if that might feel borderline. Maybe I just want people to like me too much, but I doubt I'd say that in many contexts around here.

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By *partharmonyCouple
over a year ago

Ruislip

There are things we don't want, e.g. anal, S&M, dom/sub and squirting. That's us. There's no reason not to say we don't like the idea and have no interest in trying them.

If they are your thing and you want to do them when we are not involved, you go right ahead. You'll get no complaints from us about anything you do that doesn't harm or affect anybody else.

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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

The phrase “your kink isn’t my kink but that’s ok” is key.

Just wondering, is it technically assault if proven to be consensual?

That’s wondering away from kink and shaming though.

Consent and consent under false representation is a *very* different rabbit hole, although very pertinent on here

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By *acey_RedWoman
over a year ago

Liverpool

The phrase “your kink isn’t my kink but that’s ok” is key.

Just wondering, is it technically assault if proven to be consensual?

The law is sketchy about whether its possible to consent to assault.

Yep! You can consent to a punch in the face for sport but not for sexual kicks apparently. Its an interesting and frustrating subject. I don't want to derail this post by going too much into it though.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There was a fair bit of this on the spitting thread the other day. Calling it dirty and unhygienic etc conveniently ignoring that it is no different at all in hygiene terms to kissing

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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

The phrase “your kink isn’t my kink but that’s ok” is key.

Just wondering, is it technically assault if proven to be consensual?

The law is sketchy about whether its possible to consent to assault.

Is that because until recently it was considered a mental illness and so you couldn’t consent?

The upshot is that in the OP, using what is illegal as the yardstick for acceptance of kinks, isn’t a helpful position

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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

The phrase “your kink isn’t my kink but that’s ok” is key.

Just wondering, is it technically assault if proven to be consensual?

The law is sketchy about whether its possible to consent to assault.

What if you go to a boxing club and get aroused, is that ok?

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By *aitonelMan
over a year ago

Travelling

The phrase “your kink isn’t my kink but that’s ok” is key.

Indeed. Word use is very critical in stopping harmless opinion becoming a harsh judgemental statement (which is also opinion).

I don't like x

I don't like X, it is disgusting

What is the point of the latter if not to shame by judgement. What is gained other than an attempt at superiority at those that like something you don't because you look down at it? They both say the exact same thing,but one is clearly intended to do so much more than just answer if you like it or not.

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By *acey_RedWoman
over a year ago

Liverpool

"Personally when it comes to kinks I see it as opinions are about yourself, shaming is when you make blanket negative comments about a kink or the people into it.

For example:

I don't like x.

X would make me uncomfortable.

I personally would find doing x disgusting.

I don’t understand why people like x.

Fine

X is disgusting.

People who like x are disgusting.

There is something wrong with people who like x.

Liking x is wrong.

Shaming

"I personally would find doing x disgusting."

Would you ever hesitate to say that? I wonder if that might feel borderline. Maybe I just want people to like me too much, but I doubt I'd say that in many contexts around here.

I personally wouldn't say it no but I was drawing from conversations I have seen on here about kinks and meant it could be justified as "just my opinion". I was attempting to draw a destinction between how that can but a blanket statement of "x is disgusting" can't. Possibly poor phrasing when I said fine. I meant fine as in accepting it as "just someone's opinion". However opinions can still be rude or insensitive absolutely.

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By *acey_RedWoman
over a year ago

Liverpool

The phrase “your kink isn’t my kink but that’s ok” is key.

Just wondering, is it technically assault if proven to be consensual?

The law is sketchy about whether its possible to consent to assault.

What if you go to a boxing club and get aroused, is that ok? "

Absolutely not. You shall be publicly stoned

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By *ntrepid Explorers OP Couple
over a year ago

Birmingham

"Word use is very critical in stopping harmless opinion becoming a harsh judgemental statement (which is also opinion).

I don't like x

I don't like X, it is disgusting

So is there a difference between...

"I don't like X, it is disgusting"

and

"I don't like X, it is disgusting in my opinion"

Or should they be taken to be the exact same thing?

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By *partharmonyCouple
over a year ago

Ruislip

"There was a fair bit of this on the spitting thread the other day. Calling it dirty and unhygienic etc conveniently ignoring that it is no different at all in hygiene terms to kissing

Mr"

That's an interesting point actually. I can imagine it grossing out a lot of people (like us). I just opted not to even open the thread. I just let interested parties crack on because I have nothing positive to offer on that subject.

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By *emini ManMan
over a year ago

There and to the left a bit

Whether something is an opinion or shaming essentially comes down to the way it's expressed - as Lacey illustrated so well in one of her previous posts.

Now some opinion treads a fine balance as you pointed out OP and in those instances it may come down to individual interpretation of the recipient(s) of that opinion.

We see all too often on here though (and not just about kinks...you only have to look at hairy/shaven threads for other examples) where an opinion is given dismissively and words like "disgusting" or the

emoji are used as a means of expressing an opinion that absolutely is shaming in the way it is expressed.

I have no problem is something is not for someone else, I don't even have a problem if they personally find it disgusting, but at least expand on that opinion and the reasons it's held and do so in a non-derogatory way that's dismissive of anyone that is into it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The phrase “your kink isn’t my kink but that’s ok” is key.

Indeed. Word use is very critical in stopping harmless opinion becoming a harsh judgemental statement (which is also opinion).

I don't like x

I don't like X, it is disgusting

I think that it is often not meant in a judgemental way, particularly with feelings like disgust which can feel outside our control therefore objectively fact. It often comes as a surprise to people that what they believe to be fact isn't and is seen differently by others.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The phrase “your kink isn’t my kink but that’s ok” is key.

Indeed. Word use is very critical in stopping harmless opinion becoming a harsh judgemental statement (which is also opinion).

I don't like x

I don't like X, it is disgusting

You know when people get their words wrong or just aren't that eloquent, and someone feels shamed when there was absolutely no intention of shaming. You know, the text Vs speaking argument we all go on about where expression can be difficult. Does that mean we should shame the shamer and assume that all people are literary superstars or do we cut people a little slack and check in with ourselves and how offended we truy are now and then?

Most folk don't get up in the morning wanting to offend others, but most seem to manage it, right?

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By *aitonelMan
over a year ago

Travelling

"Word use is very critical in stopping harmless opinion becoming a harsh judgemental statement (which is also opinion).

I don't like x

I don't like X, it is disgusting

So is there a difference between...

"I don't like X, it is disgusting"

and

"I don't like X, it is disgusting in my opinion"

Or should they be taken to be the exact same thing?"

No there is no difference because again it includes the unnecessary addition of "disgusting".

By its very nature "I don't like" is a statement of opinion. Adding "in my opinion" adds nothing and is again unnecessary to the conversation. "in my opinion" is a redundant phrase.

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By *aitonelMan
over a year ago

Travelling

The phrase “your kink isn’t my kink but that’s ok” is key.

Indeed. Word use is very critical in stopping harmless opinion becoming a harsh judgemental statement (which is also opinion).

I don't like x

I don't like X, it is disgusting

Mr"

It may not be their intent, but the phrase is still very judgemental. Regardless of not wanting to offend, by using such wording it is going to cause offense because it puts a very clear description on how "you" view the act.

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By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land

We all have opinions and I think there are plenty of ways of expressing them without being rude. My take on it as with much on here if I wouldn't say it to your face I'm not going to type it.

I personally feel that things that are against the law are not kinks people have, they're just illegal end of. I'm presuming correct me if I'm wrong that you're talking of non grey areas such as consenting to being flogged etc. And that people should stop making those in the kink world feel they are doing something illegal. Because this is how people can get in situations they don't want to be, because they don't want people to judge them harshly.

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By *ntrepid Explorers OP Couple
over a year ago

Birmingham

"We all have opinions and I think there are plenty of ways of expressing them without being rude. My take on it as with much on here if I wouldn't say it to your face I'm not going to type it.

Originally I was more thinking of things around race, which is fairly nebulous as a subject of course, but contains things that many people would find unacceptable. Only half a thought really, the point is just that law typically reflects a delayed view of social values, it doesn't define them inherently. So things that *will* become law are typically seen to be outside of a valid society beforehand by most. It couldn't / wouldn't / should't become law otherwise in many cases.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't like having sex with a Donald Trump lookalike in a pool of trifle, and (for my own reasons) I find it disgusting (because jelly makes my skin crawl and I find Donald trump unnatractive and I disagree with things he's said and done)"

= opinion/preference

=/= fact or shaming

People are not being told not to do it, right? But I think it's ok for people to say how they feel about any subject - we all are doing that right now on this thread aren't we? Are we shaming each other in doing so? I hope not

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By *annaBeStrongMan
over a year ago

wokingham

The phrase “your kink isn’t my kink but that’s ok” is key.

Just wondering, is it technically assault if proven to be consensual?"

It can be yes

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By *ntrepid Explorers OP Couple
over a year ago

Birmingham

""I don't like having sex with a Donald Trump lookalike in a pool of trifle, and (for my own reasons) I find it disgusting (because jelly makes my skin crawl and I find Donald trump unnatractive and I disagree with things he's said and done)"

= opinion/preference

=/= fact or shaming

I think your example wouldn't be seen to be shaming though, it's full of the right words like, e.g. "I find..." etc. so not sure there's a point being made?

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By *xmfrvnMan
over a year ago

Stoke-on-Trent

People can't stop themselves from voicing their opinions, whether there's call for it or not. I'm doing it right now.

Saw earlier in a Black Women Appreciation thread some bloke saying how he doesn't appreciate black women.

You see it on countless profiles - 'not into black/asian/middle eastern, sorry just our preference'. There's no need to even mention it, so why out yourself as definitively racist instead of simply avoiding interactions with people you're not attracted to?

With threads about kinks, because there's a more immediate nature to the forum, it's easier to let visceral reactions lead without considering whether opinions become judgemental and shaming.

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By *ad NannaWoman
over a year ago

East London

The phrase “your kink isn’t my kink but that’s ok” is key.

Just wondering, is it technically assault if proven to be consensual?"

If the person is hospitalised then the police can prosecute.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

= opinion/preference

=/= fact or shaming

I think your example wouldn't be seen to be shaming though, it's full of the right words like, e.g. "I find..." etc. so not sure there's a point being made?"

Read my previous point though regarding people who use the wrong words without meaning to. Why do we jump on people almost with more venom than we perceive they use themselves

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By *ntrepid Explorers OP Couple
over a year ago

Birmingham

= opinion/preference

=/= fact or shaming

I think your example wouldn't be seen to be shaming though, it's full of the right words like, e.g. "I find..." etc. so not sure there's a point being made?

Read my previous point though regarding people who use the wrong words without meaning to. Why do we jump on people almost with more venom than we perceive they use themselves

. "

Oh absolutely, I try and give the benefit of the doubt mostly. I've certainly had my fair share of real life issues where the problems with writing words down and pressing send causes all sorts of issues that a flowing back and forth conversation wouldn't.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

= opinion/preference

=/= fact or shaming

I think your example wouldn't be seen to be shaming though, it's full of the right words like, e.g. "I find..." etc. so not sure there's a point being made?

Read my previous point though regarding people who use the wrong words without meaning to. Why do we jump on people almost with more venom than we perceive they use themselves

Yeah, that's cool, I just think it's a minefield trying not to offend people these days unless they're your own kind of people. Whether that be politically or sexually. I think we're all too focussed on it and there are plenty of folk who will use a perceived offence to drag the other side down or to push them off the ladder and pull it up

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By *rHotNottsMan
over a year ago

Dubai & Nottingham

The phrase “your kink isn’t my kink but that’s ok” is key.

Just wondering, is it technically assault if proven to be consensual?"

In the uk you cannot legally consent to assault or r*pe so yes, it’s assault, this is why many prefer RACK over SSC , SSC is a bit silly unless your just tickling each other

The issue is that freedom of speech is being / has been limited now under new hate crime laws to remove anything that may cause offence to anyone , so you have to know the impact of your words on those receiving them and adjust your language.

I would cream pies are nice for some people , but personally , I prefer a jammy donut, there, no ones offended

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By *ntrepid Explorers OP Couple
over a year ago

Birmingham

The phrase “your kink isn’t my kink but that’s ok” is key.

Just wondering, is it technically assault if proven to be consensual?

In the uk you cannot legally consent to assault or r*pe so yes, it’s assault, this is why many prefer RACK over SSC , SSC is a bit silly unless your just tickling each other

I would cream pies are nice for some people , but personally , I prefer a jammy donut, there, no ones offended

Huh, I'd never heard of RACK, interesting one. Seems to make a lot of sense reading up quickly.

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By *batMan
over a year ago

Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales)

Just wondering, is it technically assault if proven to be consensual?

Yes it is. You can't consent to being assaulted so the law actually doesn't work in favour of those that practice impact play. "

Yes you can consent to being assaulted. Otherwise how would boxing work?

You can't consent to receiving previous injuries (There's a famous case where his foreskin was nailed to a piece of wood and even though he consented, this was found to be a criminal assault).

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By *batMan
over a year ago

Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales)

the word previous above is an autocorrect from Grevious, sorry.

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By *emorefridaCouple
over a year ago

La la land

"We all have opinions and I think there are plenty of ways of expressing them without being rude. My take on it as with much on here if I wouldn't say it to your face I'm not going to type it.

I got you, I kind of see things as illegal, morally wrong in my opinion, things I don't like cause I'm human and can't like everything. The first I won't debate because it's wrong end of, morally I understand there can be differences of opinion and will listen to people's views on them incase I'm biased. Third it's just not my bag and tend not to comment.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Just wondering, is it technically assault if proven to be consensual?

Yes it is. You can't consent to being assaulted so the law actually doesn't work in favour of those that practice impact play.

Yes you can consent to being assaulted. Otherwise how would boxing work?

You can't consent to receiving previous injuries (There's a famous case where his foreskin was nailed to a piece of wood and even though he consented, this was found to be a criminal assault). "

You can’t consent to being assaulted, even consensually, as it would be considered that you were of sound mind to consent.

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By *ntrepid Explorers OP Couple
over a year ago

Birmingham

Just wondering, is it technically assault if proven to be consensual?

Yes it is. You can't consent to being assaulted so the law actually doesn't work in favour of those that practice impact play.

Yes you can consent to being assaulted. Otherwise how would boxing work?

You can't consent to receiving previous injuries (There's a famous case where his foreskin was nailed to a piece of wood and even though he consented, this was found to be a criminal assault).

You can’t consent to being assaulted, even consensually, as it would be considered that you were of sound mind to consent. "

I guess the objective of boxing is to NOT get hit, whatever the likelihood is of that happening.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

This feels relevant to the spitting thread from the other day where there was a lot of what I would consider kink shaming... Its okay to say that's not for me, I don't find that appealing, not something I personally want to try but when that becomes that's discusting, I find it gross that people would do this... Well then for me it becomes kink shaming... Your not talking about YOUR stance and feelings about the subject you are projecting your feelings about it and and making people feel like what they like is somehow wrong and they are less than you for the fact that they do

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By *etcplCouple
over a year ago

Gapping Fanny

The phrase “your kink isn’t my kink but that’s ok” is key.

Just wondering, is it technically assault if proven to be consensual?

If the person is hospitalised then the police can prosecute.

It doesn’t just require hospitalisation. Leaving lasting marks (bruises) is enough to facilitate legal action.

Kink shaming isn’t going anywhere, just like other social shaming (weight, wealth, looks etc.). Its a way we can feel superior to others.

Personally, I don’t really care what people think of what I get up to. If they want to judge me without knowing me that says more about them than me.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't have a problem with anyone finding me or what I enjoy disgusting.

Sometimes disgust is out of your control.

It's a valid feeling and reaction.

I'm not easily 'shamed '

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't have a problem with anyone finding me or what I enjoy disgusting.

Sometimes disgust is out of your control.

It's a valid feeling and reaction.

I'm not easily 'shamed '

I agree, everyone’s feelings are totally valid, but it’s when you use that reaction to shame someone I think?

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By *aster C the kinksterMan
over a year ago

Darlington

My view is that so long as it's between consenting adults, than ok.

If I like it then I may comment bit if it's something I'm not a fan of then I'll keep quiet.

Feet for example. Just don't get it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't have a problem with anyone finding me or what I enjoy disgusting.

Sometimes disgust is out of your control.

It's a valid feeling and reaction.

I'm not easily 'shamed '

I agree, everyone’s feelings are totally valid, but it’s when you use that reaction to shame someone I think? "

Some things are better left unsaid - that is true.

I think the problem on the forums is people ask questions and want validation.

They can't possibly expect only positive comments on a public forum.

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By *ntrepid Explorers OP Couple
over a year ago

Birmingham

"I don't have a problem with anyone finding me or what I enjoy disgusting.

Sometimes disgust is out of your control.

It's a valid feeling and reaction.

I'm not easily 'shamed '

Do you think though, that in sex world you have interests to be potentially shamed about in the first place? I wonder if peoples views on this are likely to change if they come across it more frequently do to their specific interests. Obviously swing in generally can be a target of shame, but naturally that should never crop up here.

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By *etcplCouple
over a year ago

Gapping Fanny

For those who have a passing interest in the legality of BDSM you should read about

The Spanner Trust

Backlash

R v Brown 1993 lords ruling

Myles Jackman (Obscenity lawyer)

Offences against the person act

Consent in criminal law consultation paper

“Four cases decided in the last 120 years trace the development of this part of the law from Victorian times until the present day. In short, the consent of the injured person does not normally provide a defence to charges of assault occasioning actual bodily harm or more serious injury. Onto this basic principle the common law has grafted a number of exceptions to legitimise the infliction of such injury in the course of properly conducted sports and games, lawful correction, surgery, rough and undisciplined horseplay, dangerous exhibitions, male circumcision, religious flagellation, tattooing and ear piercing.”

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By *ntrepid Explorers OP Couple
over a year ago

Birmingham

"My view is that so long as it's between consenting adults, than ok.

If I like it then I may comment bit if it's something I'm not a fan of then I'll keep quiet.

Feet for example. Just don't get it.

I'll take the wording of the post to heart, "who likes x?" vs "What do you think of x?". Although often I don't think the choice of words is that well thought through by the poster!

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By *ntrepid Explorers OP Couple
over a year ago

Birmingham

"For those who have a passing interest in the legality of BDSM you should read about

The Spanner Trust

Backlash

R v Brown 1993 lords ruling

Myles Jackman (Obscenity lawyer)

Offences against the person act

Consent in criminal law consultation paper

Well I certainly believe cultural male circumcision, and ear piercing should be illegal for most ages of childhood, and that that should be reflected in societal views.

Love a bit of undisciplined horseplay though!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't have a problem with anyone finding me or what I enjoy disgusting.

Sometimes disgust is out of your control.

It's a valid feeling and reaction.

I'm not easily 'shamed '

Do you mean do I personally have kinks that could be 'shamed'?

I think a lot of us do.

But most of us don't seek validation on a public forum if we don't want to receive negativity about it.

I really don't care if the majority accepts me or not - I don't need approval from strangers on the internet.

Everyone judges everyone.

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By *tephTV67TV/TS
over a year ago

Cheshire

Someone on my block list has said on a thread, that crossdressing is ‘disgusting’. They then ask a question after coming to that conclusion, along the lines ‘why do you do it ?’ not to try and educate or as interest but to continue to try and upset or challenge you.

So I know exactly what they’re trying to do and it won’t work, as I’ve been in clubs and pubs and it’s been said to my face aggressively. So words on a screen don’t bother me that much

But since I’ve been on this site I have questioned my own kink shaming, especially about school uniforms. I have commented in the past I dislike that type of thing and also had messages from guys asking if I have a uniform for play. So this has entrenched a feeling of disgust that anyone can find a school girl uniform sexy.

However a thread a few months ago (maybe a year) changed my opinion after reading the comments and realised it’s just play and not something to be too concerned about. I won’t indulge myself (even school disco nights I’ll turn up as a headmistress

) but I shouldn’t kink shame those who enjoy it.

So these forums can change opinions or concerns if the right people with open minds listen (actually read) and not judge before they’ve heard all of the arguments.

I didn’t read the spitting thread as it’s not something I want to be involved in or read about, but if you like it ...go for it

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By *irty desireWoman
over a year ago

newcatle

So if i say I don’t like poo or pee... am kink shaming!!

Then so be it

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By *irty desireWoman
over a year ago

newcatle

[Removed by poster at 24/05/21 16:08:01]

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By *ntrepid Explorers OP Couple
over a year ago

Birmingham

"I don't have a problem with anyone finding me or what I enjoy disgusting.

Sometimes disgust is out of your control.

It's a valid feeling and reaction.

I'm not easily 'shamed '

Do you mean do I personally have kinks that could be 'shamed'?

I think a lot of us do.

But most of us don't seek validation on a public forum if we don't want to receive negativity about it.

I really don't care if the majority accepts me or not - I don't need approval from strangers on the internet.

Everyone judges everyone.

It's BAD analogy, but I was just thinking of the scenario where a middle aged white man denies the existence of things like racism, as they don't see it negatively affecting them in the first place. Not saying you're Big Dave by any means though!

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By *ntrepid Explorers OP Couple
over a year ago

Birmingham

"So if i say I don’t like poo or pee... am kink shaming!!

Then so be it

erm... no, no one is saying that..?

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By *ollydoesWoman
over a year ago

Shangri-La

It basically all comes down to ignorance. It's much easier to be disgusted or turned off by something rather than to gain any knowledge on it. Like the adult baby thing. Heard it all mentioned here once and was like wtf adults in nappies ..didn't wanna come out and say that tho so went and had a nosey just to see what it was about. I don't mean by watching clips of guys in nappies lol I just get fascinated by it all.

More people have tried than will admit trying ddlg. Purley won't say as people think it's wrong and in the family and under age related which it isn't. It's absolutely fine to find something disgusting that someone else enjoys. There are just was of saying it without humiliating/embarrassing/shaming someone for enjoying something that's perfectly legal and mutual to all taking part.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I don't have a problem with anyone finding me or what I enjoy disgusting.

Sometimes disgust is out of your control.

It's a valid feeling and reaction.

I'm not easily 'shamed '

Do you mean do I personally have kinks that could be 'shamed'?

I think a lot of us do.

But most of us don't seek validation on a public forum if we don't want to receive negativity about it.

I really don't care if the majority accepts me or not - I don't need approval from strangers on the internet.

Everyone judges everyone.

if big Dave wants to deny racism then so be it.

I don't care.

I'm not going to waste my energy on trying to get people to accept me - they either do or they don't.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So if i say I don’t like poo or pee... am kink shaming!!

Then so be it

Not liking pee or poo is fine. Saying, ‘eww, you’re disgusting’ is kink shaming.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So if i say I don’t like poo or pee... am kink shaming!!

Then so be it

That's having an oppinion and boundrys.... Saying people who do piss or poo play are gross I find the whole thing discusting and have to question the mental state of anyone who finds playing in this way sexy, They need help is kink shaming... No one has to like everything and you can find an act gross and not for you but when you start portraying it as wrong and calling out people who do like it then it's shaming

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By *hesblokeMan
over a year ago

Derbyshire village

"There was a fair bit of this on the spitting thread the other day. Calling it dirty and unhygienic etc conveniently ignoring that it is no different at all in hygiene terms to kissing

Mr"

Heh.

That's unhygienic, now let me stick my tongue up your arse. That kinda thing?

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By *hesblokeMan
over a year ago

Derbyshire village

Tone is important. If I'm sat with a mate and he says he likes X and I say "ewww haha" that's not shaming him (he wouldn't take it as that) but I wouldn't say it at a munch to a stranger.

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By *batMan
over a year ago

Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales)

You can’t consent to being assaulted, even consensually, as it would be considered that you were of sound mind to consent. "

So go back to my boxing point. Why aren’t boxers prosecuted? Of course you can consent to being hit.

I’m not in the house right now, so I can’t google the legislation for you, sorry.

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By *hesblokeMan
over a year ago

Derbyshire village

You can’t consent to being assaulted, even consensually, as it would be considered that you were of sound mind to consent.

So go back to my boxing point. Why aren’t boxers prosecuted? Of course you can consent to being hit.

I’m not in the house right now, so I can’t google the legislation for you, sorry. "

Wikipedia says no, you cannot consent under UK law.

Possibly it's because they could go further than you wished, so at what point would you be able to press charges?

Would you need a scale like the earthquake scale? That's a number 4 whip, a Number six welt?

I'm sure it's to protect the person having the acts performed upon them.

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By *ensualMan
over a year ago

Sutton

In regard to legality and BDSM RV Brown is still relevant but people into D/S need to get up to speed as well with the recently passed Domestic Abuse Act and the issues around what can be done between couples Those on youknowwhere there some good articles on it.

In terms of measuring kink by the law you can look at the slow movement in regard to LGBTQI rights and racism to see that little reliance can be put on it as a guide.

As for shaming and the common comment about people being too sensitive. My view as a kinkster is to engage with people how they would wish to be treated, not how I want to treat them, unless they are being disrespectful to me. Then I disengage. We all make honest mistakes in this modern changing climate. It is a question of being open and willing to learn and not being defensive.

As we say in kink, play nice and don't be an ass.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Word use is very critical in stopping harmless opinion becoming a harsh judgemental statement (which is also opinion).

I don't like x

I don't like X, it is disgusting

So is there a difference between...

"I don't like X, it is disgusting"

and

"I don't like X, it is disgusting in my opinion"

Or should they be taken to be the exact same thing?"

I use that sometimes. I got asked about some kinks and my reply was. “No I am not into that type of play “. I then got instantly asked but why. So my reply “ I find it abhorrent personally , but you do you and we all can’t like the same things “

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By *ora the explorerWoman
over a year ago

Paradise, Herts

Problem is if you say not for me on here a lot of people want reasons and ask why. I don’t give reasons but some people might so if you insist on asking them why then you have to be prepared to not like their answer.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Problem is if you say not for me on here a lot of people want reasons and ask why. I don’t give reasons but some people might so if you insist on asking them why then you have to be prepared to not like their answer. "

This^

People love to be liked, and so if you say you don't like something about them then the natural reaction is for them to ask why. And if you oblige honestly and true to your heart, then you're at risk of "shaming" them. It's impossible to please all the people and make them feel liked if you don't like something about some of them, right?

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By *aitonelMan
over a year ago

Travelling

"Word use is very critical in stopping harmless opinion becoming a harsh judgemental statement (which is also opinion).

I don't like x

I don't like X, it is disgusting

So is there a difference between...

"I don't like X, it is disgusting"

and

"I don't like X, it is disgusting in my opinion"

Or should they be taken to be the exact same thing?

If you are asked specifically then they are inviting more in depth and direct feelings on your opinion for it. I still think it can be answered without the impact of certain words however.

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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

Having read this thread, I must say that some of these replies feel like people trying to justify why it’s ok to kink shame

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By *ora the explorerWoman
over a year ago

Paradise, Herts

This^

Exactly. So lie instead? What if my reason is it makes me feel sick or it turns my stomach. Is that kink shaming?

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By *icentiousCouple
over a year ago

Up on them there hills

To me, and this is just me, kink shaming says more about the person shaming, if they weren’t already having those thoughts, they wouldn’t find it disgusting, you can’t be disgusted from something you’re not thinking about.

Semantics are slippery little suckers.

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By *aitonelMan
over a year ago

Travelling

[Removed by poster at 24/05/21 19:55:47]

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By *aitonelMan
over a year ago

Travelling

This^

Exactly. So lie instead? What if my reason is it makes me feel sick or it turns my stomach. Is that kink shaming? "

As I said above, when they ask you directly why, it invites more in depth discussion about the subject.

Example.

THEM: Do you like X?

YOU: No I don't like x.

This is all that the conversation needs.

THEM: Do you like x?

YOU: No I don't like x, I find it disgusting

This directly adds uninvited conflict.

THEM: Do you like x?

YOU: No I don't like x.

THEM: why don't you like X?

YOU: it makes me uncomfortable.

If they continue to push for an answer, then they have invited your full opinion. In fact they already have with the first "why?" but it can still be avoided without the more direct opinion, after the first if they insist, then that is on them with which way you take it.

It is about how you present and express your opinion on such things, not what your opinion is.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"To me, and this is just me, kink shaming says more about the person shaming, if they weren’t already having those thoughts, they wouldn’t find it disgusting, you can’t be disgusted from something you’re not thinking about.

Semantics are slippery little suckers.

We talked about this today, and we were saying, if your reaction is extreme, that’s a trigger, for whatever reason.

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By *ora the explorerWoman
over a year ago

Paradise, Herts

This^

Exactly. So lie instead? What if my reason is it makes me feel sick or it turns my stomach. Is that kink shaming?

As I said above, when they ask you directly why, it invites more in depth discussion about the subject.

Example.

THEM: Do you like X?

YOU: No I don't like x.

This is all that the conversation needs.

THEM: Do you like x?

YOU: No I don't like x, I find it disgusting

This directly adds uninvited conflict.

THEM: Do you like x?

YOU: No I don't like x.

THEM: why don't you like X?

YOU: it makes me uncomfortable.

It is about how you present and express your opinion on such things, not what your opinion is."

Exactly. Which is why not for me or no thanks should suffice. If a thread asks a yes or no question I will answer. If it asks yes or no but what are your reasons then I won’t.

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By *acey_RedWoman
over a year ago

Liverpool

Personally I've never asked people why they're not into my kinks. I don't need to know why. We're all different and that's a good thing and what makes life interesting. However, on multiple occasions on the forums I've been told I have issues or that I must have mental health problems or that my partners are paedophiles or abusers because I've joined in a thread about specific kinks and said I like it. I've mostly stopped caring these days but it can put you off joining in some posts but then it feels bad to leave the OP to take all the hate alone.

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By *urydiceRisingWoman
over a year ago

Dublin

There's such an irony to this thread because shaming is a kink all its own. I'm surprised by the number of people who think the law defines acceptability or not. Have you heard of Oscar Wilde? Or Alan Turing? Homosexuality was illegal in Ireland until 1993, condoms were essentially illegal (in the same way prescription drugs are illegal) until 1985, while AIDS ravaged this country. I know people who fetishise condoms.

It used to be that part of the allure of kink and fetish was the lack of acceptance. Those who judged the fetish were considered prude. Finding someone who was into your kink was like finding gold - and they were never disposable because they were rare. I preferred those days to be honest. The 50 shades of blah crowd has ruined what used to be a deep, dark well of SECRET lascivious delights by bringing them into the light where they lost most of their rich power, and where acceptance by the main stream became more important than the road less travelled. There's a point and a reason it's less travelled. It is not for everyone.

The tribal connection of subversive sexuality is almost completely lost. And I have a good laugh sometimes at all the profiles that use the buzz phrase 'like minded people' - anyone who is immersed in fetish and kink knows that in the thick, rich jungle of kink no one thinks alike. That's kind of the point. Acceptance of deviation is a given, it's the fun and friction of different approaches that makes it work. The thrust of the cock needs resistance.

Shame is the purview of religion and suburbia. If you really believe that there is something dangerous about what someone is doing, shame is the passive/aggressive way of dealing with it, and it won't stop the danger. If it's not about saving someone from damage, your opinion doesn't matter.

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By *igwilly2kMan
over a year ago

The Land of Kink!

Kink shaming is just not cool

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By *emini ManMan
over a year ago

There and to the left a bit

That's very true - however there are ways and there are ways of saying you don't like something and that is the distinction between expressing an opinion/preference and judging/shaming something.

As I said further up, I have no problem if someone personally finds something I like disgusting (whether that be a kink or a food stuff I like or anything else that is a subjective preference) - but there are ways of expressing that without being derogatory or seeming to judge/shame.

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By *icolerobbieCouple
over a year ago

walsall

"Kink shaming is just not cool"

I suppose it depends on the kink.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Kink shaming is just not cool

I suppose it depends on the kink."

Not really. You can not understand or not like a kink, but you don’t need to shame it.

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By *igwilly2kMan
over a year ago

The Land of Kink!

"Kink shaming is just not cool

I suppose it depends on the kink.

Not really. You can not understand or not like a kink, but you don’t need to shame it. "

Well said and totally agree, thanks for defending my comment

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By *stellaWoman
over a year ago

London

"Kink shaming is just not cool

I suppose it depends on the kink.

Not really. You can not understand or not like a kink, but you don’t need to shame it.

Well said and totally agree, thanks for defending my comment

I read their reply as a what if the person’s kink was to endure and take pleasure from being kink shamed, in which circumstances it would be ‘cool’.

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By *ssex_tomMan
over a year ago

Chelmsford

Some people just get defensive..

They take any comment perceived as negative to be shaming even if it's constructive..

Example.. a doctor tells you to lose weight.. constructive

A fabber tells you to lose weight.. fat shaming..

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By *icolerobbieCouple
over a year ago

walsall

"Kink shaming is just not cool

I suppose it depends on the kink.

Not really. You can not understand or not like a kink, but you don’t need to shame it. "

So how about if the kink was messing with kids?

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

"Kink shaming is just not cool

I suppose it depends on the kink.

Not really. You can not understand or not like a kink, but you don’t need to shame it.

So how about if the kink was messing with kids?"

That's not a kink

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

"Some people just get defensive..

They take any comment perceived as negative to be shaming even if it's constructive..

Example.. a doctor tells you to lose weight.. constructive

A fabber tells you to lose weight.. fat shaming..

Why should a fabber feel the need to tell someone to lose weight?

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By *icolerobbieCouple
over a year ago

walsall

"Kink shaming is just not cool

I suppose it depends on the kink.

Not really. You can not understand or not like a kink, but you don’t need to shame it.

So how about if the kink was messing with kids?

That's not a kink"

Can you define a kink?

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By *ionelhutzMan
over a year ago

liverpool

"Kink shaming is just not cool

I suppose it depends on the kink.

Not really. You can not understand or not like a kink, but you don’t need to shame it.

So how about if the kink was messing with kids?"

Thats illegal and people are getting hurt.

It's not a kink

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By *ntrepid Explorers OP Couple
over a year ago

Birmingham

"Kink shaming is just not cool

I suppose it depends on the kink.

Not really. You can not understand or not like a kink, but you don’t need to shame it.

So how about if the kink was messing with kids?

That's not a kink

Can you define a kink?"

This wasn't the objective of my post in the first place, but I certainly veered here... I think this is a very valid question. If something is objectively abhorrent then "kink" doesn't seem to fit. However you can't define these things objectively. It's highly cultural in most cases, and even if not, some people on the fringes of society will still try and defend their likes despite near unilateral condemnation. And from that point you pull back towards the centre, and some people will *still* dismiss some peoples sexual preferences as "not a kink, just gross".

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

"Kink shaming is just not cool

I suppose it depends on the kink.

Not really. You can not understand or not like a kink, but you don’t need to shame it.

So how about if the kink was messing with kids?

That's not a kink

Can you define a kink?"

I'm loathe to post a link as I got banned not long ago for posting illegal links but lots of good results in thd Google

I would argue that kink involves mutual consent. Lumping kinks in with sexual perversions such as pedophilia is harmful. It almost give them a defense to what they do. I watched a programme the other day where someone tried to say it was a sexuality.

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By *ntrepid Explorers OP Couple
over a year ago

Birmingham

"Kink shaming is just not cool

I suppose it depends on the kink.

Not really. You can not understand or not like a kink, but you don’t need to shame it.

So how about if the kink was messing with kids?

Thats illegal and people are getting hurt.

It's not a kink

But we all know you're a smart, clever guy. Laws do not inherently define morality do they? We can just look at the historical and geographical laws around homosexuality to remove any justification for a fundamental connection there. right?

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By *icolerobbieCouple
over a year ago

walsall

"Kink shaming is just not cool

I suppose it depends on the kink.

Not really. You can not understand or not like a kink, but you don’t need to shame it.

So how about if the kink was messing with kids?

That's not a kink

Can you define a kink?

That’s a really in depth answer that makes a lot of sense.

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By *icolerobbieCouple
over a year ago

walsall

"Kink shaming is just not cool

I suppose it depends on the kink.

Not really. You can not understand or not like a kink, but you don’t need to shame it.

So how about if the kink was messing with kids?

Thats illegal and people are getting hurt.

It's not a kink

This is what made me think of the post earlier regarding legal. A lot of things were illegal, not that long ago.

At what point do they become acceptable?

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By *odgerMooreMan
over a year ago

Nowhere

For me I might say it’s not something I think I’ll enjoy because it’s about my opinion of a certain fetish but I have no right to use judgmental language- once you use negative judgemental language I think that crosses the line and becomes shaming behaviour. On the plus side most people quite rightly disregard anything I say on here

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By *ntrepid Explorers OP Couple
over a year ago

Birmingham

"For me I might say it’s not something I think I’ll enjoy because it’s about my opinion of a certain fetish but I have no right to use judgmental language- once you use negative judgemental language I think that crosses the line and becomes shaming behaviour. On the plus side most people quite rightly disregard anything I say on here

Whatevs

;-)

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By *odgerMooreMan
over a year ago

Nowhere

Whatevs

;-)"

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By *ogueAngelMan
over a year ago

Near Bath / Bristol

I don't think there is any reason to shame someone for their kinks. Some may in fact be ashamed for something that turns them on - we have a limited control over this.

For example, a heterosexual male who might be considered quite "manly" may feel ashamed that he enjoys wearing women's underwear, but he didn't choose to enjoy it, he just does. But, let him enjoy it and explore in a manner that is safe, sane, and consensual.

Consensuality is probably the key thing; if someone wishes to impose their kink on you, that is not acceptable. Similarly, it's not acceptable to shame someone for their kinks, but only to call out inappropriate behaviours that may be behind them.

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By *antric ecstasyMan
over a year ago

Co Durham

"For those who have a passing interest in the legality of BDSM you should read about

The Spanner Trust

Backlash

R v Brown 1993 lords ruling

Myles Jackman (Obscenity lawyer)

Offences against the person act

Consent in criminal law consultation paper

So flogging is OK if it's for pious reasons and male genital mutilation of infants is allowed but I may not spank a sub. Unless it's undisciplined horeslpay. Use a riding crop, add a tail and a bridle and you are good to go. But I was riding bareback, your honour... The law is an ass or maybe a pony.

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By *antric ecstasyMan
over a year ago

Co Durham

Horseplay

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By *ensualMan
over a year ago

Sutton

Two simple answers, Firstly children cannot consent by law. Second the proper performance of kink requires consent In most westernised countries it is accepted regardless of the law that children cannot consent. Something can be kinky but completely unacceptable and not a case of "your kink is not my kink but I accept your right to do it". Genuine, freely given, informed consent is what makes modern kink acceptable to the kink community.

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By *xhibitionisticvoyeurMan
over a year ago

Wrexham

I once met a man who liked to eat raw onions. Just ate them like they were apples. I raised an eyebrow but I didn't shout him down for it.

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By *xhibitionisticvoyeurMan
over a year ago

Wrexham

"Kink shaming is just not cool

I suppose it depends on the kink.

Not really. You can not understand or not like a kink, but you don’t need to shame it.

So how about if the kink was messing with kids?

Thats illegal and people are getting hurt.

It's not a kink

This is what made me think of the post earlier regarding legal. A lot of things were illegal, not that long ago.

At what point do they become acceptable?"

Messing with kids causes long term emotional and psychological harm. I believe the law is concerned primarily with preventing harm. Unfortunately it uses quite rigid definitions of harm hence the problems when trying to reconcile the law with bdsm (or even sexual consent) in a coherent and consistent way.

A very interesting thread, lots to think and learn about. Thanks OP.

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By *aughtyloversCouple
over a year ago

Hull

I would say horseplay is a kink

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By *antric ecstasyMan
over a year ago

Co Durham

"Two simple answers, Firstly children cannot consent by law. Second the proper performance of kink requires consent In most westernised countries it is accepted regardless of the law that children cannot consent. Something can be kinky but completely unacceptable and not a case of "your kink is not my kink but I accept your right to do it". Genuine, freely given, informed consent is what makes modern kink acceptable to the kink community.

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By *oner HornCouple
over a year ago

Leeds

[Removed by poster at 25/05/21 18:19:03]

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By *oner HornCouple
over a year ago

Leeds

The phrase “your kink isn’t my kink but that’s ok” is key.

Just wondering, is it technically assault if proven to be consensual?

The law is sketchy about whether its possible to consent to assault. "

Don't think it is sketchy.

There was a famous case (R v Brown) which upheld the assault convictions of 5 men the had regular consensual bdsm sessions (and then a chat and a cuppa).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Brown

(Full disclosure: I'm a enthusiastic receiver and sometimes give of -less extreme- impact play)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I do find a lot of judgement on this site, and it's only recently i've been more open about some of my kinks here.

Consent is, for me, the line. But unless your kink is degredation, I'd rather people say "that's not for me" and move on.

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By *ensualMan
over a year ago

Sutton

I have been writing about BDSM in the Fab forums for over 6 years. I joined others to push for a separate Kink room 5 years ago which went nowhere. Forget about kink shaming people were openly rude and the people challenging the rudeness got banned. Thankfully there now appears a decent amount of decent people that will not be put up with rudeness.

The other issue is education, there has been lots of good writing about kink on Fab over the years that is lost. Lack of a kink room is...unfortunate!

Changing tack slightly, personally, I am in favour of R v Brown. If people are acting consensually there is not an issue unless as in R v Brown, you are unlucky. These days my understanding is that the police are pretty switched on about BDSM. Unfortunately there are too many men out there that see BDSM as an excuse to cause serious mental or physical harm or plain abuse. There are very few cases of subs retracting consent after the fact. It is normally the case that proper informed consent was not obtained first. My own view is that R v Brown allows the idiots to be hauled in front of the courts. There are just too many cases of abused injured women, for people to seriously complain. But that is just my idiosyncratic view in a minority of one.

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By *oner HornCouple
over a year ago

Leeds

"I have been writing about BDSM in the Fab forums for over 6 years. I joined others to push for a separate Kink room 5 years ago which went nowhere. Forget about kink shaming people were openly rude and the people challenging the rudeness got banned. Thankfully there now appears a decent amount of decent people that will not be put up with rudeness.

The other issue is education, there has been lots of good writing about kink on Fab over the years that is lost. Lack of a kink room is...unfortunate!

As the OP on r v brown...agree entirely, just couldn't find as clear a way to express my view.

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