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Photos posted at work

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By *aneDLBxx OP   Man
over a year ago

Jarrow

Advice please, some toe rag has joined the site, spotted our profile, screen shot our pics and sent them to everybody work, has anybody suffered this, and know the legal implications, we have the disclaimer at bottom of our profile, but no idea how legal it is, we has been brought to our bosses attention and they are looking into who might have started posting them, we have set profile to private for time being, not embraced by our pics, but unsure what to do if comments and snide remarks start???

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Advice please, some toe rag has joined the site, spotted our profile, screen shot our pics and sent them to everybody work, has anybody suffered this, and know the legal implications, we have the disclaimer at bottom of our profile, but no idea how legal it is, we has been brought to our bosses attention and they are looking into who might have started posting them, we have set profile to private for time being, not embraced by our pics, but unsure what to do if comments and snide remarks start??? "

Can only Brave it out try and joke it off, if you know who did it then repeller them.

There will be an ip trail if you wanted to take it further, it is a criminal offence so you can take it further with the police.

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By *exmadscotMan
over a year ago

alloa


"Advice please, some toe rag has joined the site, spotted our profile, screen shot our pics and sent them to everybody work, has anybody suffered this, and know the legal implications, we have the disclaimer at bottom of our profile, but no idea how legal it is, we has been brought to our bosses attention and they are looking into who might have started posting them, we have set profile to private for time being, not embraced by our pics, but unsure what to do if comments and snide remarks start??? "

the disclaimer is rubbish fab even tells you this

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By *LUKCouple
over a year ago

Loughborough

I'd go straight to the police with it, no idea if it falls under the revenge porn law but I'm guessing that what was done is illegal.

On the personal side, you've got to own it. Head held high and don't act ashamed or embarrassed otherwise the person who sent the pics has won.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The copy that people put at the bottom of their profile regarding images is a waste of time. It means jack shit 'cos once you've joined you've basically allowed fab to do what they like ... just like the useless disclaimers people post on Facebook.

However this person has committed an offence, (as stated above) I think it may come under the colloquially named 'revenge porn' digital crime.

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By *aneDLBxx OP   Man
over a year ago

Jarrow

Thanks for advice so far, it's more for my girlfriend she is 36 and will have to work with/around these so called men, I'm 56 and proud as punch hi 5 me I say, her boss has said if it gets out of hand he can involve the police, so just waiting to see how they react, thanks for the support, we both know most people on here are genuine, but like most good things always someone wants to spoil it

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By *dores blackmenWoman
over a year ago

incognito mode ;-)


"Thanks for advice so far, it's more for my girlfriend she is 36 and will have to work with/around these so called men, I'm 56 and proud as punch hi 5 me I say, her boss has said if it gets out of hand he can involve the police, so just waiting to see how they react, thanks for the support, we both know most people on here are genuine, but like most good things always someone wants to spoil it "

Her boss seems to be a good support

Personally I would laugh it off and answer some of there questions,vanilla are so intrigued by swinging

I wouldn't be bothered with police,I would just have to face it head on,say openly you think whoever spotted us is obviously a secret swinger too

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Unfortunately it's on the internet so there's not much you can do for your pics being stolen.

The fact it's been sent out maliciously is where you should be able to proceed on the revenge porn lines.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

How were they distributed to work colleagues.

I'd seek HR advice and potentially raise this with the police to investigate.

Disclaimer means nothing and doesn't stop people illegally re-distributing your pics.

Did you have face pics up from which you were identified?

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By *isdirtygirlCouple
over a year ago

somewhere out there

Get the police involved and ask the manager to ensure that nobody deletes any of offending emails. The original emails may contain forensic info to catch the perpetrator - particularly if a work computer was involved.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Once you put photos on the internet, they are out there where anyone can get to them and pass on to anyone else.

Before any kind of legal process could be considered, you would have to prove this was done out of malice. This would be easier to prove if you're photos were taken from a camera and the culprit had uploaded them to the internet, but given you put them out there, this would be a lot harder to prove.

The best course of action would be to ignore it, but if anyone who has seen the pictures holds them against you, they would potentially be guilty of sexual harassment.

Given that you put the pictures out there though, you would need a very open minded boss to back you up over your colleagues though.

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By *rMrs CumalotCouple
over a year ago

East Mids


"Once you put photos on the internet, they are out there where anyone can get to them and pass on to anyone else.

Before any kind of legal process could be considered, you would have to prove this was done out of malice. This would be easier to prove if you're photos were taken from a camera and the culprit had uploaded them to the internet, but given you put them out there, this would be a lot harder to prove.

The best course of action would be to ignore it, but if anyone who has seen the pictures holds them against you, they would potentially be guilty of sexual harassment.

Given that you put the pictures out there though, you would need a very open minded boss to back you up over your colleagues though."

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By *aneDLBxx OP   Man
over a year ago

Jarrow

The pictures were screen shot and sent by WhatsApp and messenger, she has spoken to her boss and decided to let everybody know we know what has happened, and he is going you issue a warning that if anybody says anything malicious they will be disciplined. We are not ashamed of our swinging just don't see why she should have to put up with sly comments, they will get a shock mind, she will bite back lol, thanks again for advice ????

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Malicious Communication Act, you will need to go to the police, ask for crime number don't worry, they see this all the time, it's brill payback, as he she will get an invitation to make a statement, not a good thing if he she works in an area a disbarring report is needed, good luck ??

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By *ohn34715Man
over a year ago

near altrincham

If they distributed the images via a company network they could be dismissed for it depending on your hr or it policy

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By *lkDomWhtSubBiCpleCouple
over a year ago

Somewhere / Everywhere /Kinksville

It's a nasty thing to happen. But whoever did this has also exposed themselves being on a swingers website ?

Hope it goes away without too much pain

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By *LUKCouple
over a year ago

Loughborough

If they were distributed by whatsapp then surely everyone who received them has the phone number of the offending party.

Shouldn't be that hard to track down the culprit.

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By *omez42Man
over a year ago

gloucester

Malicious Communications Act 2004.

Go straight to the Police. I expect HR at the company would rather the Police weren't involved, but that's tough, a crime has been committed.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Once you put photos on the internet, they are out there where anyone can get to them and pass on to anyone else.

Before any kind of legal process could be considered, you would have to prove this was done out of malice. This would be easier to prove if you're photos were taken from a camera and the culprit had uploaded them to the internet, but given you put them out there, this would be a lot harder to prove.

The best course of action would be to ignore it, but if anyone who has seen the pictures holds them against you, they would potentially be guilty of sexual harassment.

Given that you put the pictures out there though, you would need a very open minded boss to back you up over your colleagues though."

You don't have to prove malice, just that the perpetrators intention is to cause stress or embarrassment. That's quite easy to prove; in reality why else would anyone post photos like these publicly.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"If they were distributed by whatsapp then surely everyone who received them has the phone number of the offending party.

Shouldn't be that hard to track down the culprit."

This,

Its obvious who shared them, the employer should be going down the disciplinary route and you should be contacting the police

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'd go to the police the person was trying to cause you harm

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By *inky-MinxWoman
over a year ago

Grantham

Police matter for sure

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I'd go straight to the police with it, no idea if it falls under the revenge porn law but I'm guessing that what was done is illegal.

On the personal side, you've got to own it. Head held high and don't act ashamed or embarrassed otherwise the person who sent the pics has won."

Definitely is! Happened to me but with family

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What bastards! Hope this gets sorted OP. Bloody scumbags

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By *icecouple561Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

East Sussex

One saving grace is that they were sent via whatsapp. It should be vey easy to identify the culprit. Lets hope it happens quickly and the rumours are shut down.

Who brought it to your attention? They will have the number they came from.

Hope its sorted soon.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

not nice to do that - id brave it out but let them know youre pissed off - m sure its punishable to post stuff about now but i stand to be corrected

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Had this sorta thing happen to me I held my head high what I do in my personal life is no one else's business including work x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"How were they distributed to work colleagues.

I'd seek HR advice and potentially raise this with the police to investigate.

Disclaimer means nothing and doesn't stop people illegally re-distributing your pics.

Did you have face pics up from which you were identified?"

They would be sacked right away in my workplace for sharing the photos. Yes raise it with your HR as per advice above, they have to do something. Good luck and i hope you have a good outcome.

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By *ab_SparklesWoman
over a year ago

sparkle Surprised

[Removed by poster at 07/06/17 19:58:33]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"If they were distributed by whatsapp then surely everyone who received them has the phone number of the offending party.

Shouldn't be that hard to track down the culprit."

I was just thinking exactly the same thing

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By *ab_SparklesWoman
over a year ago

sparkle Surprised

I had similar but a jealous ex trying to get someone i had seen before him. But as it was out of the work hours private life he did not lose his job, but it was not nice having his boss calling me. Due to what he did. As for the remarks, only close thing your going to get is the mess at 4am in a bar smile and walk away. Gets them every time lol.

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By *uckieMan
over a year ago

Newbury

That's just out of order. Hi 5 you for having a hot partner and double high 5 for having an amazing attitude.

I hope what ever happens you both keep your heads up high and stay close.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You haven't done anything illegal being on a swingers site but whoever has distributed the photos has committed a crime. Like said above if they've gone in Whatsapp the phone number will be shown. Go to the police but make sure you 'laugh' it off with work colleagues, they'll only be jealous.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 07/06/17 20:25:58]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I had a similar thing happen. I had a big disagreement with a colleague that I was very friendly with.

(I am straight, she is Bi and when she came into me and i brushed her off she did not like it)

I reported her for inappropriate behaviour in work (related to something else) and when she found out about it, she shared a video of me and a mutual male friend/fb that we had both been with and made false allegations against me.The video was shared with HR and my area manager (The mutual male had shared the video with her via Whats'app)

I have raised a grievance against her, but I am so furious and I am thinking of going to the police but I don't know where I stand.

I'm not sure that I want the shame of going to the police.

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By *aneDLBxx OP   Man
over a year ago

Jarrow


"I had a similar thing happen. I had a big disagreement with a colleague that I was very friendly with.

(I am straight, she is Bi and when she came into me and i brushed her off she did not like it)

I reported her for inappropriate behaviour in work (related to something else) and when she found out about it, she shared a video of me and a mutual male friend/fb that we had both been with and made false allegations against me.The video was shared with HR and my area manager (The mutual male had shared the video with her via Whats'app)

I have raised a grievance against her, but I am so furious and I am thinking of going to the police but I don't know where I stand.

I'm not sure that I want the shame of going to the police. "

Judging by the support and advice we have been given, got straight to the police, it's more than likely everybody has seen it so nothing to hide, we have had great support from people we know St work today and the majority think it's bang out of order,

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Apologies that this doesn't help but only have one profile pic and the rest for friends. Only add those you've met as a friend.

Yup, it's in FabSwingers faq section that the disclaimer is a waste of time and just takes up server space.

Just police and revenge porn springs to mind.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't think revenge porn would apply.

The images where taken from a public Internet site. You've no realistic expectation of privacy.

However it would certainly be gross misconduct to spread porn graphic pics of coworkers in the work place, so can get them sacked at least

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By *uckieMan
over a year ago

Newbury

Keep us posted on your decision and the outcome.

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By *ELLONS AND CREAMWoman
over a year ago

stourbridge area


"Police matter for sure "

Yes .... They take it very seriously these days

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I don't think revenge porn would apply.

The images where taken from a public Internet site. You've no realistic expectation of privacy.

However it would certainly be gross misconduct to spread porn graphic pics of coworkers in the work place, so can get them sacked at least"
it doesn't matter where the photos are.. what matters is were they distributed to cause distress or embarrassment..

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By *efinitely MaybeCouple
over a year ago

Wakefield

[Removed by poster at 10/06/17 11:15:17]

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By *efinitely MaybeCouple
over a year ago

Wakefield

Our first post on the Forum (and we made a mistake doh!) we didn't expect it to be on a topic like this though.

What is this?

Bullying that's for sure. Possibly harassment?

The Equality Act 2010 may be your friend (sexual orientation is a protected characteristic). But its a bit thin on that one.

Defamation of character that's for sure.

All in all, it is down right nasty.

Personally I would lodge a formal grievance which will kick-start an investigation by HR.

Also as other people have said, consider going to the Police and show this horrible person his behavior is not acceptable in today's society.

Most importantly, stay strong and don't let it get you down.

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By *aneDLBxx OP   Man
over a year ago

Jarrow

Thanks again for the helpful advice, we are both not ashamed of our free time hobby lol, it looks like the novelty is wearing off already, plus a verbal warning from the boss has helped, it's just ashame there are some sad people about, but if we were all the same live would be boring ?? lol, happy swinging everybody, and feel free to msg us, Tony and emma

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By *ucilleWoman
over a year ago

Newcastle Upon Tyne

I had a situation where I was outed at work. It seems that you have already been given some good advice and reached some conclusion yourself but if you want to discuss it more feel free to PM me xx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"I don't think revenge porn would apply.

The images where taken from a public Internet site. You've no realistic expectation of privacy.

However it would certainly be gross misconduct to spread porn graphic pics of coworkers in the work place, so can get them sacked at least it doesn't matter where the photos are.. what matters is were they distributed to cause distress or embarrassment.."

Which would be hard to argue given they where freely published for all to see.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Our first post on the Forum (and we made a mistake doh!) we didn't expect it to be on a topic like this though.

What is this?

Bullying that's for sure. Possibly harassment?

The Equality Act 2010 may be your friend (sexual orientation is a protected characteristic). But its a bit thin on that one.

Defamation of character that's for sure.

All in all, it is down right nasty.

Personally I would lodge a formal grievance which will kick-start an investigation by HR.

Also as other people have said, consider going to the Police and show this horrible person his behavior is not acceptable in today's society.

Most importantly, stay strong and don't let it get you down."

You can't defame people by saying/sharing the truth.

It has to be a lie.

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By *omez42Man
over a year ago

gloucester

I don't think it is defamation, it is a malicious communication.

IMHO a verbal warning is nowhere near good enough, I would be getting the police involved. Although the damage appears manageable, as in the OP is, quite rightly, getting on with life, the next time someone does something like this, the result could be a hell of a lot worse.

Behaviour like this need to be stamped out, and seen to be stamped out in the hope that the next person will think twice.

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By *arry247Couple
over a year ago

Wakefield


"Advice please, some toe rag has joined the site, spotted our profile, screen shot our pics and sent them to everybody work, has anybody suffered this, and know the legal implications, we have the disclaimer at bottom of our profile, "

The disclaimer means one thing and one thing only you do not understand the law.

That gives the green light to any who wish to abuse you by giving them the confidence you would not know how to take action against them.

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By *imply_SensualMan
over a year ago

Widnes

Section 33 of the Criminal Justice and Courts Act 2015....

Disclosing private sexual photographs and films with intent to cause distress

(1)It is an offence for a person to disclose a private sexual photograph or film if the disclosure is made—

(a)without the consent of an individual who appears in the photograph or film, and

(b)with the intention of causing that individual distress.

So regardless that the images are already on the internet, it is the purpose they are distributed that causes the offence to be committed. If it is a malicious act, then they have committed a crime.

While laughing it off can be all well and good and not require the hassle of police investigations etc, do so, just lets the perpetrator off and they can easily go on and do it again.

I would certainly go to the police, you are entitled to keep your private life private.

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By *inkerbell67Woman
over a year ago

Clacton on sea essex

Send a email to every body you know who the email has been sent to and tell them the police are now involved ....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"If they were distributed by whatsapp then surely everyone who received them has the phone number of the offending party.

Shouldn't be that hard to track down the culprit."

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Section 33 of the Criminal Justice and Courts Act 2015....

Disclosing private sexual photographs and films with intent to cause distress

(1)It is an offence for a person to disclose a private sexual photograph or film if the disclosure is made—

(a)without the consent of an individual who appears in the photograph or film, and

(b)with the intention of causing that individual distress.

"

The issue here is if photos on a public place are considered private.

If I found photos of Donald Trump while browsing the internet ,of him going down on Hurry Clinton and I emailed them to everyone in the White House, would that be revenge porn?

I doubt.

Remember a year or so ago. The Deputy speaker of the House of Commons with hookers...Very embarrassing but he's still at his job and noone was ever prosecuted.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Just two thoughts on this ,

Thought1-everyo e is assuming this has been perpetrated by a work colleague but I put it to you that this maybe the result of a jealous spouse who's discovered their other half on fab and recognised you in pics as been to your residence and as you probably all keep in touch via multi media had easy access to all your shared contacts,long winded and grasping I know but it does happen especially if spouse has local meets and you showed up on search.

Thought 2 someone spied your account when you been checking messages at work and wasn't aware they around and they have got straight onto fab dif a quick sign up and looked u up and saved your profile pics as screen shots,

My advise view fab in private when at work either in loo cubicle or your car or wait till u get home,best of luck all of u with this issue

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Section 33 of the Criminal Justice and Courts Act 2015....

Disclosing private sexual photographs and films with intent to cause distress

(1)It is an offence for a person to disclose a private sexual photograph or film if the disclosure is made—

(a)without the consent of an individual who appears in the photograph or film, and

(b)with the intention of causing that individual distress.

So regardless that the images are already on the internet, it is the purpose they are distributed that causes the offence to be committed. If it is a malicious act, then they have committed a crime.

While laughing it off can be all well and good and not require the hassle of police investigations etc, do so, just lets the perpetrator off and they can easily go on and do it again.

I would certainly go to the police, you are entitled to keep your private life private."

Except the very first sentence says "disclose a private sexual photograph".

A photo that the subject has willingly put up on the Internet to be viewed by anyone can't be seen as private.

After all anyone from the OP's work could have come across the image on thier own.

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By *all and ChainWoman
over a year ago

Truro


"Section 33 of the Criminal Justice and Courts Act 2015....

Disclosing private sexual photographs and films with intent to cause distress

(1)It is an offence for a person to disclose a private sexual photograph "

Nothing published to the open internet is private, and fab profiles are on the open internet, the legal definition of the act is "published"

Chances are (I haven't read the fab T&C that closely) that by publishing them to someone elese's website, like fab, as opposed to your own domain and website, you also passed over both IP and copyright of those photos, so you can't even sue the person from breach of copyright...

When will people learn, if you want it to stay private, keep it private, and never let it anywhere near the internet... some of us have no identifiable pics for a reason.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Section 33 of the Criminal Justice and Courts Act 2015....

Disclosing private sexual photographs and films with intent to cause distress

(1)It is an offence for a person to disclose a private sexual photograph

Nothing published to the open internet is private, and fab profiles are on the open internet, the legal definition of the act is "published"

Chances are (I haven't read the fab T&C that closely) that by publishing them to someone elese's website, like fab, as opposed to your own domain and website, you also passed over both IP and copyright of those photos, so you can't even sue the person from breach of copyright...

When will people learn, if you want it to stay private, keep it private, and never let it anywhere near the internet... some of us have no identifiable pics for a reason. "

And for that same reason I never send a face photo, even if that costs me a loss of a meet.

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By *heWolfMan
over a year ago

warwickshire


"Section 33 of the Criminal Justice and Courts Act 2015....

Disclosing private sexual photographs and films with intent to cause distress

(1)It is an offence for a person to disclose a private sexual photograph or film if the disclosure is made—

(a)without the consent of an individual who appears in the photograph or film, and

(b)with the intention of causing that individual distress.

So regardless that the images are already on the internet, it is the purpose they are distributed that causes the offence to be committed. If it is a malicious act, then they have committed a crime.

While laughing it off can be all well and good and not require the hassle of police investigations etc, do so, just lets the perpetrator off and they can easily go on and do it again.

I would certainly go to the police, you are entitled to keep your private life private.

Except the very first sentence says "disclose a private sexual photograph".

A photo that the subject has willingly put up on the Internet to be viewed by anyone can't be seen as private.

After all anyone from the OP's work could have come across the image on thier own."

Did the OP publish a "private sexual photograph" or did they just have pic which identified them on a swingers' site?

The offence comes from the disclosure, not how that photograph was sourced.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Get his/her face from a photo... find some porn... small dick porn say, photoshop, attach, send. Even.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Section 33 of the Criminal Justice and Courts Act 2015....

Disclosing private sexual photographs and films with intent to cause distress

(1)It is an offence for a person to disclose a private sexual photograph or film if the disclosure is made—

(a)without the consent of an individual who appears in the photograph or film, and

(b)with the intention of causing that individual distress.

So regardless that the images are already on the internet, it is the purpose they are distributed that causes the offence to be committed. If it is a malicious act, then they have committed a crime.

While laughing it off can be all well and good and not require the hassle of police investigations etc, do so, just lets the perpetrator off and they can easily go on and do it again.

I would certainly go to the police, you are entitled to keep your private life private.

Except the very first sentence says "disclose a private sexual photograph".

A photo that the subject has willingly put up on the Internet to be viewed by anyone can't be seen as private.

After all anyone from the OP's work could have come across the image on thier own.

Did the OP publish a "private sexual photograph" or did they just have pic which identified them on a swingers' site?

The offence comes from the disclosure, not how that photograph was sourced."

It was not a private sexual photograph though it was a public sexual photograph that the op had chosen to share with everyone.

If it had been sent via pm/whatsapp fair enough but public images are just that public. (Depending on the sites t&c they may belong to fabswingers now much like Facebook pics can be used for anything by FB)

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By *uckandbunnyCouple
over a year ago

Gran Canaria

I think they key word is private. when you upload photos, you are given a choice of public or private and any decent lawyer would get a revenge porn case thrown out.

However, it could be deemed to be harassment or stalking if they know you.

The best outcome here seems to be that you have a first grade boss. Good on them for supporting you.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Did you find out who posted the photos?

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By *eerobCouple
over a year ago

solihull

If it was important to keep your activities on here secret you should have taken better precautions to hide your identity.... We feel the police have far more important thing to deal with at the moment than catching up with trolls and cyber bullies.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

One other thing to consider I was recently told on another forum is HR is not your friend.

It may be easier and preferable for them to get rid of you then take action against whomever shared the photos.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"One other thing to consider I was recently told on another forum is HR is not your friend.

It may be easier and preferable for them to get rid of you then take action against whomever shared the photos."

You'd have to be incredibly useless and the other rperson incredibly useful for it to be in a companies best interests to open themselves up to that legal hell

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

Chances are (I haven't read the fab T&C that closely) that by publishing them to someone elese's website, like fab, as opposed to your own domain and website, you also passed over both IP and copyright of those photos, so you can't even sue the person from breach of copyright...

"

Just wanted address this bit. This is absolutely not true. Any creative work that you produce, and this includes photography, remains your copyright unless it is explicitly assigned to someone else (such as work carried out on a contract for someone else). A website cannot automatically assume copyright of an image uploaded to their site unless there is a particular clause in the contract.

Whether you'd have the funds to pursue it through the courts is another matter.

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By *ikeC81Man
over a year ago

harrow

So the person that posted the photos must have been on your profile - I would wonder if you can see who's looked at you

This would give you an idea to raise at least with the mods of this site

TBH a lot of companies have a bringing the company in to disrupte policy , so whilst I fully agree that the people circulating the photos are bang out of order and should be reprimanded, the company could raise this if you were threatening legal action.

Whilst there a few pics of me on my open profile I wouldn't want around work - videos of me at football are far worse

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By *v_heatherTV/TS
over a year ago

Leeds

The employer will also have a responsibility to prevent harrassment which would certainly come into play if this was done by a fellow employee (which it does sound like).

The disrepute thing is one to consider - but that will depend on the employer and nature of the business. i have one friend who works in a sex shop, one who works for a conservative religiious charity and I guess the two would take different views! It's quite a thing for an employer to prove though if the pictures were not on open public view and didn't identify the employer (this is why you should never do pics in work uniform or at workplaces IMO).

If that is going to be an issue then to an extent the damage is already done.

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