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"Anyone have one? The amount of time I've had great chats with men who have contacted me and then when it comes to meeting, they miraculously disappear. Just why? And any way of stopping this from happening? It's so frustrating! I know men complain about time wasters but it happens to us women too! " just assume because they are a man and can't read they are time wasters, woe betide a woman to chat to a guy for weeks go on holiday come back ignore said man ,people on here shouldn't throw stones but they do hugs | |||
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"Thanks Hun I'll check that our. Tried to message you privately but you're blocked to women ( not trying to hit on you lol!)" Might have blocked everyone tbh. It's school holidays so i'm not on here as much usually. | |||
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"Problem is, the more it happens, the more sceptical I get towards anyone who is actually genuine..." It's really hard to figure out yeah. The internet is terrible for meeting up with people or trusting them over it. So many liars using it to be selfish and dragging genuine people into their BS because it's easy for them to do this. | |||
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"Anyone have one? The amount of time I've had great chats with men who have contacted me and then when it comes to meeting, they miraculously disappear. Just why? And any way of stopping this from happening? It's so frustrating! I know men complain about time wasters but it happens to us women too! " Do these guys ever have any meet in person verifications? But then again some women tell me I've got too many veris and refuse to meet for that reason? Lol, sometimes it seems we can't win whatever we do. | |||
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"Do these guys ever have any meet in person verifications?" All the guys who stood me up were meet verified. One was actually still in bed with the woman he'd met the night before while I was twiddling my thumbs in a pub. I sometimes think some people on here are psychopaths. | |||
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"Meet me, I don't let people down " you wanting to meet us all hun? Xx | |||
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"Meet me, I don't let people down you wanting to meet us all hun? Xx" I'm not sure I could cope with everyone lol - mind you, there's worse ways to go | |||
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"Might as well change the way you do things on here if it's not working for you, but yeah i think plenty of guys want a fantasy wank life on here. I think the internet has made it so easy for guys to find 'sex' by sitting on their arse in front of a computer that they cba to meet up lol. I've noticed if you offer a fuck right now then many guys are genuinely interested and will turn up, even at 5am and that. I don't think they're into socials, they see us a sluts and not worthy of that, although many guys are cool with treating us like people. I'd be wary of those guys myself. It's also possible some guys got bored of talking to you after so long and class you as a time waster?" | |||
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"My 'magic formula' works like this: If a guy messages and we chat a bit and it becomes apparent he just wants wank chat I stop talking to him. If a guy I am chatting to appears to be someone I think I would get on with and enjoy chatting with I ask for a social very quickly. The genuine ones arrange it, the wasters don't. Then I stop talking to them. I also never believe I will meet anyone until it actually happens. I never feel let down that way " This for me too. | |||
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"My 'magic formula' works like this: If a guy messages and we chat a bit and it becomes apparent he just wants wank chat I stop talking to him. If a guy I am chatting to appears to be someone I think I would get on with and enjoy chatting with I ask for a social very quickly. The genuine ones arrange it, the wasters don't. Then I stop talking to them. I also never believe I will meet anyone until it actually happens. I never feel let down that way This for me too. " I am aware I need to change the way I meet on here, which is why I am hiding my profile for a while. But what happens when you arrange a social meet and they appear keen, but then don't turn up? I wish there was a way to see that one coming so I don't end up sat in a pub waiting. Thank heavens for my Kindle, that's all I'm saying. | |||
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"So I guess this is one situation where it's ok to ask the guy to meet, not expecting them to make the first move? Why would a guy message me, have a good chat online and then just disappear? ( and these are verified ones too!)" Because you did something to put him off. Perhaps you were too pushy or bossy | |||
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"My 'magic formula' works like this: If a guy messages and we chat a bit and it becomes apparent he just wants wank chat I stop talking to him. If a guy I am chatting to appears to be someone I think I would get on with and enjoy chatting with I ask for a social very quickly. The genuine ones arrange it, the wasters don't. Then I stop talking to them. I also never believe I will meet anyone until it actually happens. I never feel let down that way This for me too. I am aware I need to change the way I meet on here, which is why I am hiding my profile for a while. But what happens when you arrange a social meet and they appear keen, but then don't turn up? I wish there was a way to see that one coming so I don't end up sat in a pub waiting. Thank heavens for my Kindle, that's all I'm saying." I've never arranged a social meet and had them not turn up. I always have a back up plan (cake and coffee usually) so it's not a waste of time if they don't show. I give up on people quite quickly. If something doesn't seem right I just let them know it won't work and stop chatting, so we're not wasting our time. I don't know if that means I'm lucky or I just have a knack of scaring them off long before a meet is arranged. | |||
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"My 'magic formula' works like this: If a guy messages and we chat a bit and it becomes apparent he just wants wank chat I stop talking to him. If a guy I am chatting to appears to be someone I think I would get on with and enjoy chatting with I ask for a social very quickly. The genuine ones arrange it, the wasters don't. Then I stop talking to them. I also never believe I will meet anyone until it actually happens. I never feel let down that way This for me too. I am aware I need to change the way I meet on here, which is why I am hiding my profile for a while. But what happens when you arrange a social meet and they appear keen, but then don't turn up? I wish there was a way to see that one coming so I don't end up sat in a pub waiting. Thank heavens for my Kindle, that's all I'm saying. I've never arranged a social meet and had them not turn up. I always have a back up plan (cake and coffee usually) so it's not a waste of time if they don't show. I give up on people quite quickly. If something doesn't seem right I just let them know it won't work and stop chatting, so we're not wasting our time. I don't know if that means I'm lucky or I just have a knack of scaring them off long before a meet is arranged. " I didn't spend too much time chatting. The meet was arranged quite quickly and he seemed keen. To be honest there were a couple of warning signs so I should have seen it coming, but he was very much the kind of guy I am attracted to. I was probably blinded by lust. | |||
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"I don't think I'm pushy or bossy! But I'm probably both a bit wary and impatient after so long on here... Nothing is real for me until I've met someone in real life, I don't know if I'll be attracted to someone until we've met in person so don't want to spend ages chatting to a stranger online!" then don't, just for a laugh, everyone that messages this week , ask for their phone number so you can ring them to have a chat with a view to asking them for a date one evening . Even the cock pictures but ask them , to send a face picture as well | |||
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"Meet me, I don't let people down you wanting to meet us all hun? Xx I'm not sure I could cope with everyone lol - mind you, there's worse ways to go " sure is hun!!! | |||
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"I don't think I'm pushy or bossy! But I'm probably both a bit wary and impatient after so long on here... Nothing is real for me until I've met someone in real life, I don't know if I'll be attracted to someone until we've met in person so don't want to spend ages chatting to a stranger online! then don't, just for a laugh, everyone that messages this week , ask for their phone number so you can ring them to have a chat with a view to asking them for a date one evening . Even the cock pictures but ask them , to send a face picture as well " Even the ones who live 200 miles away? | |||
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"My 'magic formula' works like this: If a guy messages and we chat a bit and it becomes apparent he just wants wank chat I stop talking to him. If a guy I am chatting to appears to be someone I think I would get on with and enjoy chatting with I ask for a social very quickly. The genuine ones arrange it, the wasters don't. Then I stop talking to them. I also never believe I will meet anyone until it actually happens. I never feel let down that way This for me too. I am aware I need to change the way I meet on here, which is why I am hiding my profile for a while. But what happens when you arrange a social meet and they appear keen, but then don't turn up? I wish there was a way to see that one coming so I don't end up sat in a pub waiting. Thank heavens for my Kindle, that's all I'm saying. I've never arranged a social meet and had them not turn up. I always have a back up plan (cake and coffee usually) so it's not a waste of time if they don't show. I give up on people quite quickly. If something doesn't seem right I just let them know it won't work and stop chatting, so we're not wasting our time. I don't know if that means I'm lucky or I just have a knack of scaring them off long before a meet is arranged. I didn't spend too much time chatting. The meet was arranged quite quickly and he seemed keen. To be honest there were a couple of warning signs so I should have seen it coming, but he was very much the kind of guy I am attracted to. I was probably blinded by lust. " Sorry, I wasn't inferring it's your fault. Was just saying how I do things. Sounds like you just need to trust your gut... not your lady bits... | |||
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" Sounds like you just need to trust your gut... not your lady bits... " I think we just found our magic formula | |||
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"I don't think I'm pushy or bossy! But I'm probably both a bit wary and impatient after so long on here... Nothing is real for me until I've met someone in real life, I don't know if I'll be attracted to someone until we've met in person so don't want to spend ages chatting to a stranger online! then don't, just for a laugh, everyone that messages this week , ask for their phone number so you can ring them to have a chat with a view to asking them for a date one evening . Even the cock pictures but ask them , to send a face picture as well Even the ones who live 200 miles away? " Why not . they may travel the 200 miles , they may be moving here . I would say you seem really nice, but I must state here and now , I won't be travelling 200 miles if you can make the effort Sen me your number They won't message You back anyway , let alone give you a phone number Like others say it's all just a big gamble . All you can do is minimise the risk of wasting your time by getting numbers quickly and arranging dates close to home, either at lunch for 30 minutes or in the local McDonald's in the evening . No point arranging a day of travelling 100 miles for a social for them not to turn up . If some one where to travel some distance , I would. Not even leave to go the first date , till they showed as being close in the near me | |||
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"Problem is, the more it happens, the more sceptical I get towards anyone who is actually genuine..." I've had 1 person actually meet from here and been stood up or heard nothing for the week before said meet So I'm finding this thread very interesting | |||
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" Sounds like you just need to trust your gut... not your lady bits... I think we just found our magic formula " What were the 'warning signs' you mentioned..? | |||
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" Sounds like you just need to trust your gut... not your lady bits... I think we just found our magic formula What were the 'warning signs' you mentioned..?" He postponed the meet, but then texted alternative dates so I thought that was fine. But the one that should have warned me was the fact that he didn't reply to my text the morning of the meet. Rookie mistake. | |||
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"The funny thing is that I tick several of these boxes, I won't accommodate as I live with my kids full time, I won't give out my phone number at least not at first and I like to chat as my free time is limited and it may be a month or more before I'm free. But I'm real, genuine and available. I guess if people want to pigeon hole me and write me off then that's up to them. I think OP ultimately there will always be people who will let you down, no matter how sophisticated your process. Sometimes you risk being let down. Personally I'd rather risk and be let down than not risk and gain nothing" Its the old Fab problem of distance too. I would love to meet you but you're too damn far away. | |||
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"The funny thing is that I tick several of these boxes, I won't accommodate as I live with my kids full time, I won't give out my phone number at least not at first and I like to chat as my free time is limited and it may be a month or more before I'm free. But I'm real, genuine and available. I guess if people want to pigeon hole me and write me off then that's up to them. I think OP ultimately there will always be people who will let you down, no matter how sophisticated your process. Sometimes you risk being let down. Personally I'd rather risk and be let down than not risk and gain nothing Its the old Fab problem of distance too. I would love to meet you but you're too damn far away. " You would?! Well polish my britches! I'd love to meet you too! | |||
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"The funny thing is that I tick several of these boxes, I won't accommodate as I live with my kids full time, I won't give out my phone number at least not at first and I like to chat as my free time is limited and it may be a month or more before I'm free. But I'm real, genuine and available. I guess if people want to pigeon hole me and write me off then that's up to them. I think OP ultimately there will always be people who will let you down, no matter how sophisticated your process. Sometimes you risk being let down. Personally I'd rather risk and be let down than not risk and gain nothing Its the old Fab problem of distance too. I would love to meet you but you're too damn far away. You would?! Well polish my britches! I'd love to meet you too! " We'll sort something one day. | |||
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"The funny thing is that I tick several of these boxes, I won't accommodate as I live with my kids full time, I won't give out my phone number at least not at first and I like to chat as my free time is limited and it may be a month or more before I'm free. But I'm real, genuine and available. I guess if people want to pigeon hole me and write me off then that's up to them. I think OP ultimately there will always be people who will let you down, no matter how sophisticated your process. Sometimes you risk being let down. Personally I'd rather risk and be let down than not risk and gain nothing Its the old Fab problem of distance too. I would love to meet you but you're too damn far away. You would?! Well polish my britches! I'd love to meet you too! We'll sort something one day." Yes, I'm sure there will be a party or social. I keep meaning to go up to leeds | |||
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"Anyone have one? The amount of time I've had great chats with men who have contacted me and then when it comes to meeting, they miraculously disappear. Just why? And any way of stopping this from happening? It's so frustrating! I know men complain about time wasters but it happens to us women too! " Like some of the women who have mucked me around, they like the fantasy of meeting but when it comes to reality they can't go through with it. I'd ask around for the guys who can relied upon that are in your area as i know a lot of the popular guys on here get recommended a lot. | |||
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"Can't accommodate is a crude filter....but a good start. A single 40yr old guy who can't accommodate has a fair chance of being attached....? Friend of mine uses this as first filter." What is stopping a married guy borrowing his mates flat/house and meeting there?. I don't accommodate because i houseshare with friends and it could be a bit awkward if one of them comes in when im at a meet with a couple. | |||
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"Most people on here are married or attached. I met a lass once who told me she was widowed but she was actually in a relationship" Bates Motel! | |||
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"Not being able to accommodate is not a sign of being married I live in the mess on a Army base, so therefore I put down that I can't accommodate, however if you insist I can meet you at the front gate, sign you onto the barracks then escort you to my flat all mod cons and then escort you back to front gate after lol Just easier to say I can't accommodate but it does not make me married or in a relationship " Nice one | |||
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"Anyone have one? The amount of time I've had great chats with men who have contacted me and then when it comes to meeting, they miraculously disappear. Just why? And any way of stopping this from happening? It's so frustrating! I know men complain about time wasters but it happens to us women too! " A frank talk on the phone usually works a voice and answers to questions without time to think usually s out the time wasters. | |||
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"Can't accommodate is a crude filter....but a good start. A single 40yr old guy who can't accommodate has a fair chance of being attached....? Friend of mine uses this as first filter." Great one & attached guys are generally entirely unreliable, even if they do have veris. We've had our fair share of deceit here. Does the profile seem 'too good to be true'? Then it probably is. No veris after 6 months? Ok, not ideal but a workable formula. No veris after 3-6 months and a WE+ cock, works for us. Veris only by cam? Probably doesn't meet. Short profile, can't be bothered to fill it in? Good indicator. Face pics public and fairly new? Again not ideal but most newbies, generally, don't want their faces on public display. Some of that may or may not work for you. But they do usually work for us x | |||
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"Can't accommodate is a crude filter....but a good start. A single 40yr old guy who can't accommodate has a fair chance of being attached....? Friend of mine uses this as first filter." That's not right, your assuming he's attached. But could very well be a single parent. Just saying | |||
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"if you text a man you become a text buddy If you fuck a man you become a fuck buddy . If you go out with a man for meals etc he sees you as a friend . If you want a man to hang around , you need to provide him with more than just a fuck you need to provide love and affection . Because chances are if he is just fucking you then he is just fucking loads of others . Same as going out , messaging etc . Women do this , and I can promise you this does happen . After 2nd or 3 rd message , they offer phone number, and Will go on a date from one phone call. It does happen , I personally would never message a woman more than 4 or 5 times. As Us men get used to transferring from the lets fuck zone to the sweet friend zone In fact I would say , that if no offer of a meet within a week then it's a move on . You work during the day , I would suggest phone calls at say 8 or 9 pm at night is always a good way to out the time wasters and dreamers , Only ring the once to ask them for a date . But the most important thing to do to stop time wasters , is not let them waste your time, take control early . If they don't want to meet you after 3 messages especially if they message your first , they are not going to meet you 4 weeks later after messaging every day . And the real secret is us blokes know we mess it up by talking ,so w know the longer we message the more chance we have of screwing it up . Understand that and you will get past the time wasters " what a load of b***! | |||
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"We have found that it just seems to be standard practise on Fab. Full of dreamers and bedroom masterbaters..." | |||
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"Why would anyone post a "How to fake it as genuine" guide on the forum? The last thing anyone needs (except the timewasters and wannabes) is a sure fire way to make their messages look genuine." Fair point but I think the bad outweighs the good on this. It will help people to know how to spot the eejits. The real timewasters will be too busy typing with one hand to read the forum. | |||
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"But what happens when you arrange a social meet and they appear keen, but then don't turn up? I wish there was a way to see that one coming so I don't end up sat in a pub waiting. Thank heavens for my Kindle, that's all I'm saying." Choose a pub near you so you don't travel far. Wait in the car so if he doesn't show you just go home | |||
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" I've had people stop chatting cause i don't have KIK or whatsapp, i suspect they were after dirty chat though." It can be but not always | |||
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"Anyone have one? The amount of time I've had great chats with men who have contacted me and then when it comes to meeting, they miraculously disappear. Just why? And any way of stopping this from happening? It's so frustrating! I know men complain about time wasters but it happens to us women too! Like some of the women who have mucked me around, they like the fantasy of meeting but when it comes to reality they can't go through with it. I'd ask around for the guys who can relied upon that are in your area as i know a lot of the popular guys on here get recommended a lot. " There are far too many female time wasters on here. | |||
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"Can't accommodate is a crude filter....but a good start. A single 40yr old guy who can't accommodate has a fair chance of being attached....? Friend of mine uses this as first filter." I'm a single 49yrs old divorced guy that gave my ex the house and I can't accom due to the fact I'm living in shared accommodation so would be hard to bring someone back here??? | |||
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"Can't accommodate is a crude filter....but a good start. A single 40yr old guy who can't accommodate has a fair chance of being attached....? Friend of mine uses this as first filter. I'm a single 49yrs old divorced guy that gave my ex the house and I can't accom due to the fact I'm living in shared accommodation so would be hard to bring someone back here??? " There are many of us like you mate.. However the amateur 'Miss Marples' and 'Inspector Clouseaus' on this site just love to judge ... Scotland Yard is Definately missing out on some talented detectives ... "Single bloke + can't accommodate = married"? This is one of the reasons I prefer to meet in clubs ... I simply cannot be bothered with this attitude. | |||
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"Can't accommodate is a crude filter....but a good start. A single 40yr old guy who can't accommodate has a fair chance of being attached....? Friend of mine uses this as first filter. I'm a single 49yrs old divorced guy that gave my ex the house and I can't accom due to the fact I'm living in shared accommodation so would be hard to bring someone back here??? There are many of us like you mate.. However the amateur 'Miss Marples' and 'Inspector Clouseaus' on this site just love to judge ... Scotland Yard is Definately missing out on some talented detectives ... "Single bloke + can't accommodate = married"? This is one of the reasons I prefer to meet in clubs ... I simply cannot be bothered with this attitude. " Some of us use it as a filter but that's not saying that all single guys that can't accommodate are really married. What we are saying is that most married guys can't accommodate so we are filtering a lot out. Get over it. | |||
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"Can't accommodate is a crude filter....but a good start. A single 40yr old guy who can't accommodate has a fair chance of being attached....? Friend of mine uses this as first filter. I'm a single 49yrs old divorced guy that gave my ex the house and I can't accom due to the fact I'm living in shared accommodation so would be hard to bring someone back here??? There are many of us like you mate.. However the amateur 'Miss Marples' and 'Inspector Clouseaus' on this site just love to judge ... Scotland Yard is Definately missing out on some talented detectives ... "Single bloke + can't accommodate = married"? This is one of the reasons I prefer to meet in clubs ... I simply cannot be bothered with this attitude. Some of us use it as a filter but that's not saying that all single guys that can't accommodate are really married. What we are saying is that most married guys can't accommodate so we are filtering a lot out. Get over it. " No need to throw your teddy out of the pram, it's a public forum, you have your opinion , I have mine. | |||
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"Omg. I'm so glad I'm not the only one having this problem!!! It sounds odd but I was beginning to think there was something wrong with me!! I've read so many threads about men saying that women are timewasters. I'm slowly learning tell tale signs, like the can't accomm. Gonna just keep going. One day someone will meet me. Good luck to you too op. It'll all come good!! Xx " Ditto | |||
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" No need to throw your teddy out of the pram, it's a public forum, you have your opinion , I have mine." I'm not the one making snide comments about "amateur 'Miss Marples' and 'Inspector Clouseaus' on this site just love to judge ..." am I | |||
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"Anyone have one? The amount of time I've had great chats with men who have contacted me and then when it comes to meeting, they miraculously disappear. Just why? And any way of stopping this from happening? It's so frustrating! I know men complain about time wasters but it happens to us women too! just assume because they are a man and can't read they are time wasters, woe betide a woman to chat to a guy for weeks go on holiday come back ignore said man ,people on here shouldn't throw stones but they do hugs " Sounds a bit like you've had some personally experience with the OP from that comment. If that's not the case you really should make that clear. Oh, almost forgot. hugs | |||
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"They don't go UNLOS, but we talk about a date to meet, a social and then just disappear. Obviously not all guys, but a good percentage. It's so hard to get it right, finding someone you might fancy, be compatible with, is having a phone conversation a good way to go..?" I don't think phoning them up will solve this problem but it might help a little. I'm assuming that these are not 'no shows' but rather more a case of 'no meet actually being arranged'. I think there are two possible causes of this that I think might be the problem. 1. With the guys who are relatively successful on here. It could be that, while they were chatting with you about a possible meet they were also chatting with other people to and have arranged some definite meets. It doesn't take many to fill up month of weekends. I have every weekend booked up between now and after Christmas already (no they're not all fab meets, I have a life to live also LOL). When I know I'm not going to be able to meet for a while I tend to decrease the amount of chat I do on here, especially if it's someone I fancy; it would be a disaster if she asked me for a meet and I had to say no because I couldn't make it. 2. With the guys who aren't so successful on here. You come across as a very confident woman. You're also very attractive (in my opinion). On your profile it says you are looking for someone special. All these things can be quite intimidating for some guys. Maybe some like the fantasy of meeting you but, as the fantasy moves closer to a probability or even a reality their insecurities start to get the better of them and they back away. I don't know how true or relevant either of these two things maybe in your case but I think they're definite possibilities. In good faith. | |||
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"Do these guys ever have any meet in person verifications? All the guys who stood me up were meet verified. One was actually still in bed with the woman he'd met the night before while I was twiddling my thumbs in a pub. I sometimes think some people on here are psychopaths." Maybe he thought you'd tell him he was 'old and possibly wrinkly'. . LOL | |||
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" No need to throw your teddy out of the pram, it's a public forum, you have your opinion , I have mine. I'm not the one making snide comments about "amateur 'Miss Marples' and 'Inspector Clouseaus' on this site just love to judge ..." am I " Good morning, I've just reread my comments, and your response, and with the benefits of a good nights sleep to help judgement, I can hold my hand up and say you are quite right and I was wrong to make snide comments in the thread (aimed at no one in particular) My knee-jerk reaction was more of a result of a long irritating day at work, and unfortunately manifested itself in this thread 'close to my heart' which I've been following. The OP asked a perfectly sensible question to which everyone chipped in, whilst I don't agree with everyone's answer, I failed to counter-debate with an alternative point of view. Instead I succumbed to the very thing I hate about forums .. And started ranting. I sit here with a slight dribble of egg on my stubbly face ... And happily accept that everyone is entitled to whatever works them. Sorry ( I'm only human) | |||
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" No need to throw your teddy out of the pram, it's a public forum, you have your opinion , I have mine. I'm not the one making snide comments about "amateur 'Miss Marples' and 'Inspector Clouseaus' on this site just love to judge ..." am I Good morning, I've just reread my comments, and your response, and with the benefits of a good nights sleep to help judgement, I can hold my hand up and say you are quite right and I was wrong to make snide comments in the thread (aimed at no one in particular) My knee-jerk reaction was more of a result of a long irritating day at work, and unfortunately manifested itself in this thread 'close to my heart' which I've been following. The OP asked a perfectly sensible question to which everyone chipped in, whilst I don't agree with everyone's answer, I failed to counter-debate with an alternative point of view. Instead I succumbed to the very thing I hate about forums .. And started ranting. I sit here with a slight dribble of egg on my stubbly face ... And happily accept that everyone is entitled to whatever works them. Sorry ( I'm only human)" Every one has bad days fella. Apology unnecessary but appreciated | |||
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" No need to throw your teddy out of the pram, it's a public forum, you have your opinion , I have mine. I'm not the one making snide comments about "amateur 'Miss Marples' and 'Inspector Clouseaus' on this site just love to judge ..." am I Good morning, I've just reread my comments, and your response, and with the benefits of a good nights sleep to help judgement, I can hold my hand up and say you are quite right and I was wrong to make snide comments in the thread (aimed at no one in particular) My knee-jerk reaction was more of a result of a long irritating day at work, and unfortunately manifested itself in this thread 'close to my heart' which I've been following. The OP asked a perfectly sensible question to which everyone chipped in, whilst I don't agree with everyone's answer, I failed to counter-debate with an alternative point of view. Instead I succumbed to the very thing I hate about forums .. And started ranting. I sit here with a slight dribble of egg on my stubbly face ... And happily accept that everyone is entitled to whatever works them. Sorry ( I'm only human) Every one has bad days fella. Apology unnecessary but appreciated " Thank you | |||
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