FabSwingers.com forum: Ban people who advertise bareback?

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Definition of stupid..

Requesting bareback from a bunch of people who are promiscuous and obviously more high risk.

If people can't protect themselves should a site like fab take responsibility and ban the promotion of bareback? If they don't have the intellect or common sense to wear protection is it not also a reasonable assumption that they don't get tested after every roulette sex session.

I am all for freedom of choice but I believe if Fab took a stand and stated 'advertising bare back sex will result in a ban.'

Sometimes drastic action is necessary and this could have a real impact.

Mike x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

...or just choose to not meet them.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Consenting adults can do as they like. It's not illegal.. and do you really think banning would stop it... ?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Sometimes people need protecting from themselves.. Although it could be seen as natural selection

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why ban ? You block maybe and move on to ones you wish to meet.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Banning it in here would help.

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By *iewMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Angus & Findhorn

and do you think they would be honest if they faced a ban.

it is better they advertise their honesty, it allows an informed choice.

I believe them more than I do people who declare they never bareback

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You should not expect anyone to look out for your safety or health, except you.

If you are old enough to be on a sex site it follows that your old enough to take care of yourself.

The only person who can police your sexual safety is YOU !!!

How could a web site protect you?

Every single person takes a risk when they have sex, protected or unprotected,

I imagine every person on every sex site has taken a risk at some time, weather kissing, sucking, licking,

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By *atasha_DavidCouple
over a year ago

Slough

Or Catholicism?

If people knew that being honest got them banned they would lie and I personally would like to know and make an informed choice.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Those who advertise the fact that they play bare are honest , and give us all the choice as to whether we want to meet them .

The op is simply inviting barebackers to withold this information .

So with the facts witheld we are in the dark .

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm not a fan of bareback, It's a stupid risk you can never tell if someones clean or not just by looking at them.

But people are allowed to have sex without condom, a ban could never really be effective ,chances are they will do it even if fab tells them not to.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Definition of stupid..

Requesting bareback from a bunch of people who are promiscuous and obviously more high risk.

I am all for freedom of choice but I believe if Fab took a stand and stated 'advertising bare back sex will result in a ban.'

Sometimes drastic action is necessary and this could have a real impact.

Mike x

On Fabs other site, there is a category for bareback sex, and on a gay mans site, that seems irresponsible, there are even Guys with HIV, advertising for bareback sex, and such profiles are allowed.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Proving my point - banning the advertising of bareback sex on here would just be a simple step and send a message. With great power comes great responsibility and a site such as fab should use that power for the greater good.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

why at more risk than in the vanilla world people in this lifesstyle are more likely to be tested, at a guess.

I find it helpful for people to advertise, helps to know who to avoid.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Proving my point - banning the advertising of bareback sex on here would just be a simple step and send a message. With great power comes great responsibility and a site such as fab should use that power for the greater good.

Or if you feel so much danger and risk, perhaps YOU should leave.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Business isn't just about power, its about making a profit, providing a service, not restricting membership.

Also it would be impossible to police, unless the site could provide a chaperone for every meeting, to check if condoms are being used, and preventing blow jobs.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Sometimes it is better to just take a stance.. There have been real cases of people deliberately infecting people and it shouldn't be made easy for them. The anonymity of fav means people are unlikely to be able to inform people if they find out they are infected.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So you prefer for people to lie? Just as long as we protect ourselves that's good enough for me.

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By *otwife CoolhubCouple
over a year ago

Bathgate

Your points' not proven at all.

Bareback sex is a preference, banning people from the site is never going to happen just because of a preference. Protect yourself as most of us do, if you want to be 100% safe, abstain.

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By *aisy100Woman
over a year ago

wakefield

"Banning it in here would help.

No all swingers are part of a close knit community. Like others say I would prefer people to be honest that way safe sex people know who to avoid if they so wish

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

it really is difficult to have an intelligent debate on here.

Let me repeat "stop the advertising if bareback sex" obviously you cannot stop people having bareback sex! But you can with simple steps discourage the promotion of bareback.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Sometimes people need protecting from themselves.. Although it could be seen as natural selection"

That has got to be one of the most Arrogant comments i've seen in the Forums so far..Gary

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By *orset manMan
over a year ago

Bournemouth

I just read about a bareback party , advertising for guys to attend- astonishing

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 05/12/13 10:05:00]

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By *icentiousCouple
over a year ago

Up on them there hills

I prefer to know and not hidden, that gives me the knowledge to make choice. Personally I wouldn't want to risk being with someone who doesn't use protection even if I was protected - so I like to know.

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By *arlock69Man
over a year ago

Batley... (near Leeds)

For someone who has only been on here a short while it isn't wise trying to tell established swingers what's what!!...you come across as a bit of a sex nazi...if you don't like what consenting adults do maybe you should delete your account

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By *rednkatieCouple
over a year ago

orlando

banning seams a little over the top..

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Yes it would work at present fab has to enforce the law. If tomorrow legislation meant you could no longer promote bareback sex, then fab would have to act on that.

Why not take the initiative and just have a policy "we do not allow the promotion of bareback sex on this site"

Of course fab does enforce things such as no paid services, very successfully.

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By *iewMan
Forum Mod
over a year ago

Angus & Findhorn

"it really is difficult to have an intelligent debate on here.

Let me repeat "stop the advertising if bareback sex" obviously you cannot stop people having bareback sex! But you can with simple steps discourage the promotion of bareback.

so if people who advertise for bare back are the definition of stupid..

and people who don't agree are unable to have an intelligent debate.

ok, I agree it is a great idea...

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

HIV is quite extreme..

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I meant people could not distinguish between a ban on bareback sex and the ban of the promotion of bareback sex!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"For someone who has only been on here a short while it isn't wise trying to tell established swingers what's what!!...you come across as a bit of a sex nazi...if you don't like what consenting adults do maybe you should delete your account"
wow yes what next . Married woman meeting sing men , lol People have choices and that's what makes the world go around.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"it really is difficult to have an intelligent debate on here.

Let me repeat "stop the advertising if bareback sex" obviously you cannot stop people having bareback sex! But you can with simple steps discourage the promotion of bareback.

We just disagree with your right wing _iews!!

You think you are intelligent and above us all....... it's the Bob Geldof of Swinging.....

So go and start your own Site and save the world.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Make it as difficult as possible for people to exercise behaviour that puts others at risk. It would also help the reputation of swingers and counter the seedy image.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

And you get some woman here looking to make babies , lol How will they feel.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There is no such thing as safe sex, just safer sex. I chose not to meet people who display bareback sex, but that is my choice.

People have died for freedom, and no one should be allowed to dictate what can and cant be done, its about freedom of choice, paid services directly affect the sites income, so are rightly banned .

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Make it as difficult as possible for people to exercise behaviour that puts others at risk. It would also help the reputation of swingers and counter the seedy image. "

Swinging encourages adultery, cheating and random sex.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Don't meet them then. Simple. Freedom of choice

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You are putting yourself at risk, nobody will want to meet you....

Now get down off your High Horse of its' soapbox and calm down....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There are some sti that can kill left in later stages,if they want to be on a death wish let them, just don't touch them with a bargepole

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Make it as difficult as possible for people to exercise behaviour that puts others at risk. It would also help the reputation of swingers and counter the seedy image. "
its your body your choice..... and you know swinging having sex with people you don't know it high risk ...... sex without a cover....... hell no you can get just as much from oral and kissing and maybe get mugged.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Banning MoodHoovers would make this site better, but in the interests of democracy Moodhoovers are allowed.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Definition of stupid..

Requesting bareback from a bunch of people who are promiscuous and obviously more high risk.

I am all for freedom of choice but I believe if Fab took a stand and stated 'advertising bare back sex will result in a ban.'

Sometimes drastic action is necessary and this could have a real impact.

Mike x

Im confused. You claim to be in favour of freedom of choice but advocate banning something you don't agree with. So how does that work?

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

Ban bareback sex from a swinger site?

So then we ban oral sex, then oh, a new idea, let's ban swinging, hold on, let's ban sex altogether.

One thing I have learned in life is that once the "ban it brigade" get their foot in the door they can't stop pushing.

Bareback sex isn't our thing but if other people want to exercise their right to choose and all party's are happy with it then who am I (or you) to tell them what they can or can't do.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

At least with oral, it can be detected quicker, but with something internal can go on months even years undetected.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Social lemming or troll?

Part social lemming, making unpopular arguments will result in some rejection!

I'm from near Mansfield which has a HIV rate higher than the national average due to the popularity of bareback dogging. I think it is pretty depressing that after all the publicity people will still meet strangers and engage in bareback..

A simple step to group bareback advertising with paid services would not stop it happening but it would at cleat make it more difficult..it could even save lives.

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"it really is difficult to have an intelligent debate on here.

Let me repeat "stop the advertising if bareback sex" obviously you cannot stop people having bareback sex! But you can with simple steps discourage the promotion of bareback.

We just disagree with your right wing _iews!!

You think you are intelligent and above us all....... it's the Bob Geldof of Swinging.....

So go and start your own Site and save the world.

Excuse me, I like to think of myself as right of centre, but I deplore the "ban it brigade" I would think the OP's position is more like the nanny left.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ban bareback sex from a swinger site?

So then we ban oral sex, then oh, a new idea, let's ban swinging, hold on, let's ban sex altogether.

One thing I have learned in life is that once the "ban it brigade" get their foot in the door they can't stop pushing.

Bareback sex isn't our thing but if other people want to exercise their right to choose and all party's are happy with it then who am I (or you) to tell them what they can or can't do."

Well said I was just waiting for someone to say that its up to us what we do and how we do it not you and your ban it band if you don't like it don't look at them or meet them its that easy

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Lets relate this to cannabis, which is illegal and you can be arrested for, but does it stop people who want it - No.

Give up, do something more useful instead.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Hang on a minute are you the morality police.

Its simple if you meet folk make sure they and you are suited and booted its that simple.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

"it really is difficult to have an intelligent debate on here.

Let me repeat "stop the advertising if bareback sex" obviously you cannot stop people having bareback sex! But you can with simple steps discourage the promotion of bareback.

But is it promotion or people just telling people they play bareback so anyone who doesn't can avoid them?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Social lemming or troll?

Part social lemming, making unpopular arguments will result in some rejection!

A simple step to group bareback advertising with paid services would not stop it happening but it would at cleat make it more difficult..it could even save lives.

"
you could never police that how would you ever know in their own homes and hotel rooms or dogging .. its impossible.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"it really is difficult to have an intelligent debate on here.

Let me repeat "stop the advertising if bareback sex" obviously you cannot stop people having bareback sex! But you can with simple steps discourage the promotion of bareback.

But is it promotion or people just telling people they play bareback so anyone who doesn't can avoid them?"

Exactly!

No surprises and ability to make an informed choice, as an adult.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

and do you think they would be honest if they faced a ban.

it is better they advertise their honesty, it allows an informed choice.

I believe them more than I do people who declare they never bareback"

Exactly this.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

Ok can we keep the troll word away from threads please, a difference of opinion doesn't make people trolls.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

The 'who am I to tell them it's wrong' argument is weak. IF you see someone doing something stupid that effects the rat of the population, then take stand.

When such a simple policy change will save lives.. Surely it is a no brainer

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By *cottishrichMan
over a year ago

Here and there

"it really is difficult to have an intelligent debate on here.

Let me repeat "stop the advertising if bareback sex" obviously you cannot stop people having bareback sex! But you can with simple steps discourage the promotion of bareback.

You seem to be missing the point that if advertising bareback wasn't allowed then people would just lie about it and you would never know if the people you were meeting did it or not. At least now if someone advertises that they play bareback you can just move on to the next profile.

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

"The 'who am I to tell them it's wrong' argument is weak. IF you see someone doing something stupid that effects the rat of the population, then take stand.

When such a simple policy change will save lives.. Surely it is a no brainer "

Why would it save lives? Those people will still bareback

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By *lackshadow7Man
over a year ago

Toronto

How about no!

Block them and go about your day living in blissful ignorance that those left don't or havene't ever played bareback ever!

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By *ugby 123Couple
Forum Mod
over a year ago

O o O oo

PS not that I m saying every person who barebacks will die, it was just to answer the comment made.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The 'who am I to tell them it's wrong' argument is weak. IF you see someone doing something stupid that effects the rat of the population, then take stand.

When such a simple policy change will save lives.. Surely it is a no brainer "
go into a club play room say that to a woman having a bareback gangbang , some love that too. Not sure how they would take it ?? not well I bet.

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By *inaTitzTV/TS
over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

I'm from Mansfield. Please can you supply the evidence to support your above statement?

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By *udistnorthantsMan
over a year ago

Desborough

I'd much rather see an "Achtung Minefield" or "Warning, Dog might Bight" sign than just assume everything is safe... so I'd rather see which profiles do Safe and which do BB... I like being grown-up enough to make an informed choice...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm from Mansfield. Please can you supply the evidence to support your above statement? "

Good call.

Glasgow and Huntingdon at one time (mid 90's) had the highest HIV rates per population due to heroin users. Did they all quit heroin to take up dogging. Dogging is not that much of a substitute.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Sometimes people need protecting from themselves.. Although it could be seen as natural selection

That has got to be one of the most Arrogant comments i've seen in the Forums so far..Gary"

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By *uby0000Woman
over a year ago

hertfordshire

"You should not expect anyone to look out for your safety or health, except you.

If you are old enough to be on a sex site it follows that your old enough to take care of yourself.

The only person who can police your sexual safety is YOU !!!

How could a web site protect you?

Every single person takes a risk when they have sex, protected or unprotected,

I imagine every person on every sex site has taken a risk at some time, weather kissing, sucking, licking, "

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why not just leave the site if it offends you so much.

why should anyone dictate what we do in private.

its England not north Korea

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Why not just leave the site if it offends you so much.

why should anyone dictate what we do in private.

its England not north Korea "

Best post so far

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Condoms are used by people who don't want to catch anything.

it shouldn't matter if previous partners played bb as a condom user you put faith in it working.

anyone who is 100% worried about sti's should take up another hobby

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By *atelotmanMan
over a year ago

Chatham

"Why not just leave the site if it offends you so much.

why should anyone dictate what we do in private.

its England not north Korea

Best post so far

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I don't like the idea of stirring someone else's porridge. If you know what I mean. Could be stale milk.

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By *aisy100Woman
over a year ago

wakefield

"Make it as difficult as possible for people to exercise behaviour that puts others at risk. It would also help the reputation of swingers and counter the seedy image. "

You seem very passionate about this but dont insult people, just because you agree with what they are doing it doesnt mean its wrong. At the end of the day they are not putting everyone at risk because everyone is responsible for their own sexual saftey.

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By *ondcpl4meetCouple
over a year ago

North of the river

well said .

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By *tirling DarkCouple
over a year ago

Stirling

"Sometimes people need protecting from themselves.. Although it could be seen as natural selection"

Love how the always state is is their decision or choice but never that it is an informed decision or choice. I pick up a gun hold it to ny temple and pull the trigger is a choice, I pick up a gun, remove the magazine, clear the weapon put on the safety catch and then pull the trigger is an informed choice.

We agree that as a sex site Fab should be encouraging safe sex at every opportunity.

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By *uimlickerCouple
over a year ago

Stoke-on-Trent

How about having the results of your last health check as part of your verification?

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By *tirling DarkCouple
over a year ago

Stirling

"Why not just leave the site if it offends you so much.

why should anyone dictate what we do in private.

its England not north Korea "

And in the UK, as Fab is not just an English site, there is such a thing as corporate responsibility. Some businesses promote environmental issues and strive in improve things, the least a swingers site should do is promote safe sex. It is nothing to do with 'nanny state', or the like, it is about promoting safe sex and safe meetings.

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By *tirling DarkCouple
over a year ago

Stirling

"How about having the results of your last health check as part of your verification?"

Only valid until your first bb session

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By *uby0000Woman
over a year ago

hertfordshire

I don't think its down to the site to ban BB we should all be responsible as adults

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If people want to do it and enjoy it it's their risk and their choice, moreover they are much easier to avoid if they are advertising it on there profile.

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

I'm from Mansfield. Please can you supply the evidence to support your above statement?

Good call.

Glasgow and Huntingdon at one time (mid 90's) had the highest HIV rates per population due to heroin users. Did they all quit heroin to take up dogging. Dogging is not that much of a substitute."

At the risk of upsetting the good people of the Port, I believe it was Leith which had the highest HIV rate in the UK.

As for dogging - I doubt it. Cottaging I could believe simply because of the greater numbers of participants and the lack of knowledge in the past.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

OP needs to realise that his _iews are right wing and absolute simply because he will hear no argument. The content of the debate does not matter. What would be his ultimate solution I wonder for people who don't comply with his _iews? Mass executions? Perhaps force all the barebackers to wear a yellow dick sewn onto their clothes and herd them into special compounds?

Wait! someone did that once before didn't they? lol

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By *tirling DarkCouple
over a year ago

Stirling

"OP needs to realise that his _iews are right wing and absolute simply because he will hear no argument. The content of the debate does not matter. What would be his ultimate solution I wonder for people who don't comply with his _iews? Mass executions? Perhaps force all the barebackers to wear a yellow dick sewn onto their clothes and herd them into special compounds?

Wait! someone did that once before didn't they? lol"

Well that is one hell of a leap; comparing someone who feels that those promiting unsafe sex on a sex site should be banned to atrocities carried out by Nazi Germany. There is a term for those who throw in the Nazi argument.

If someone was advocating suicide on a mental health forum be banned? Of course they would. The OP was asking if someone advocating unsafe sex on a swingers site should be banned. Nothing more.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think the OP hasn't really thought this through to it's ultimate conclusion and should perhaps refrain from swinging at all as this is the only way to avoid any risk at all is to be completely monogomous. His request is just silly and wouldn't work.

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

Wait! someone did that once before didn't they? lol"

All that could equally be left wing.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Wait! someone did that once before didn't they? lol

If someone was advocating suicide on a mental health forum be banned? Of course they would. The OP was asking if someone advocating unsafe sex on a swingers site should be banned. Nothing more."

It's called godwins law haha, but banning it seems a tad extreme yes there are risks but perfectly legal risks. Some people just prefer it, it's their risk and their choice.

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By *tirling DarkCouple
over a year ago

Stirling

Wait! someone did that once before didn't they? lol

If someone was advocating suicide on a mental health forum be banned? Of course they would. The OP was asking if someone advocating unsafe sex on a swingers site should be banned. Nothing more.

It's called godwins law haha, but banning it seems a tad extreme yes there are risks but perfectly legal risks. Some people just prefer it, it's their risk and their choice. "

Godwin's, couldn't remember his name but clearly his law was applied here

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

My point is simply that, reading the Op's posts, he brooks NO argument. These people, he feels MUST be dealt with and his is the practical answer!

I'm well aware that it is considered weak to play the "Nazi" card, but the guy is so intensly right wing in his _iew it's actually quite scarey. Read his posts and you should see what I mean. The analagy was too obvious to miss.

Saying that, I don't quite get the left wing remark by one poster. All for the combined benefit of all, does not seem to fit.

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By *issHottieBottieWoman
over a year ago

Kent

"How about having the results of your last health check as part of your verification?

Only valid until your first bb session"

Surely not. It'll only be valid until you next have sexual contact, bare or not. As some sti can be passed on even with the use of a condom.

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

Wait! someone did that once before didn't they? lol"

Yes. Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot. Oops sorry they were all left wing Communists, so they can be forgiven then.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Im going to take up bb just to piss op off lol xx

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By *lueWKDMan
over a year ago

West Midlands

For a guy who has no verifications and been on fab 5 weeks. Wants to ban bare back get a life. We have with couples we know and trust

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

and do you think they would be honest if they faced a ban.

it is better they advertise their honesty, it allows an informed choice.

I believe them more than I do people who declare they never bareback"

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

and do you think they would be honest if they faced a ban.

it is better they advertise their honesty, it allows an informed choice.

I believe them more than I do people who declare they never bareback

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Some people want it, some want to reciprocate it.

As long as that market exists and individuals contribute to this site it's owners will allow the advertisements.

We will either reply with a no thank you or not reply at all

Stay safe!!

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By *tirling DarkCouple
over a year ago

Stirling

"For a guy who has no verifications and been on fab 5 weeks. Wants to ban bare back get a life. We have with couples we know and trust "

"Trust" , what us this based on what? How do you know that they weren't out fucking bb the night before with complete strangers. With the risks involved that is a hell of a lot of trust.

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By *tirling DarkCouple
over a year ago

Stirling

"My point is simply that, reading the Op's posts, he brooks NO argument. These people, he feels MUST be dealt with and his is the practical answer!

Saying that, I don't quite get the left wing remark by one poster. All for the combined benefit of all, does not seem to fit."

You seriously think that the original post was RIGHT wing? Really? He was merely expressing an opinion many have on thise practicing unsafe sex. It was your interpretation and not an interpretation many would have leapt to. Christ by that interpretation all Daily Mail readers are right wingers, no wait they probably are

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Definition of stupid..

Requesting bareback from a bunch of people who are promiscuous and obviously more high risk.

I am all for freedom of choice but I believe if Fab took a stand and stated 'advertising bare back sex will result in a ban.'

Sometimes drastic action is necessary and this could have a real impact.

Mike x

there are loads of people on here who put safe sex only but play bare, I have met countless men who have tried to shag me without a condom on a meet who claim to only play safe, who is to say who does and does not play safe? banning people who advertised bareback would only make more people lie and make your choice of who you don't want to meet harder

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 05/12/13 13:49:45]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 05/12/13 13:50:44]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If the OP or anyone can come up with a 100% guaranteed way of identifying and broadcasting to one and all each and every occasion someone has bareback sex or a condom splits, or a 'tattoo' or neon sign appears on someone's forehead when infected with an sti - then that will be the day I stop taking responsibility for my own safety and rely on others.

People lie. Accidents happen. Banning any mention of bareback would simply hide the issue - not stop it. As others have said - public declarations of unsafe practices help us more than any ban would as we can clearly identify people and avoid/block should we choose!

Personally i think the OP is delusional if he thinks a ban will grind all unsafe activities to a halt. The real world requires clarity - not censorship!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

as its been said just block and move on, banning those showing bareback (yes im one and yes hes my sons father who i intend on getting pregnant a second time to) would merely make more liars. takes two to tango and if you wrap up your end im sure you'll have a great time. take care of number one and try and enjoy it!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

and whilst you are sat at home wearing your bubble wrap suit, staring out of your window, too scared to go outside, as its way too dangerous, while the rest of the world gets on with life, you can enjoy yourself knowing that there is no way at all you are going to put yourself in any form of danger.

or, the fact that, maybe, people that actually play bareback, could possibly get checked more often, for STi's becuse they know they are at risk, whereas any that dont play bare, think they are safe so dont bother, and are potentially putting more people at risk.

would rather read what people want and decide not to partake, than be told what i can and cant get involved in or not, just because it may upset someones sensibility

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If the OP or anyone can come up with a 100% guaranteed way of identifying and broadcasting to one and all each and every occasion someone has bareback sex or a condom splits, or a 'tattoo' or neon sign appears on someone's forehead when infected with an sti - then that will be the day I stop taking responsibility for my own safety and rely on others.

Personally i think the OP is delusional if he thinks a ban will grind all unsafe activities to a halt. The real world requires clarity - not censorship!

I look after my own sexual health. I don't need anything banned or anyone to tell me what I should or shouldn't do.

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

As an adult, I'll make my own decisions, thanks. I don't need an uppity 29-year old who has been here for 5 weeks telling me how to live my life.

What's next? Users have to declare their BMI and overweight people are banned because the site can't be seen to accept unhealthy people?

The site should clearly ban smokers. Smoking kills. The site should be responsible for the health of these people and anyone harmed by passive smoking and should ban smokers.

People die on the roads every day. Drivers, motorcyclists, cyclists and pedestrians should be banned for knowingly partaking in risky activities and risking the lives of others. They'll probably travel less if they don't go to meets. This could save lives.

Where exactly do we stop?

I don't need or want anyone policing my every move and telling me what is best for me. I do my research and I decide what risks I will, and will not, accept.

We live in enough of a nanny state as it is.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think the op originally set out with "how can i appeal to couples" his brain wave has back fired on him big time.

a change of tactics is needed

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"and whilst you are sat at home wearing your bubble wrap suit, staring out of your window, too scared to go outside, as its way too dangerous, while the rest of the world gets on with life, you can enjoy yourself knowing that there is no way at all you are going to put yourself in any form of danger.

would rather read what people want and decide not to partake, than be told what i can and cant get involved in or not, just because it may upset someones sensibility"

Just to take issue with "whereas any that dont play bare, think they are safe so dont bother, and are potentially putting more people at risk."

We play ONLY safe and get checked regular, as do many others who play safe....

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By *andcCouple
over a year ago

London and Cheshire

The idea of banning people for advertising bareback just doesn't work, they just won't advertise it directly on their profile, but still play bareback, so it stops nothing.

Best solution is to just worry about your own health, don't do bareback get tested regularly, it's still not safe sex but at least is safer sex!!!

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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"I think the op originally set out with "how can i appeal to couples" his brain wave has back fired on him big time.

a change of tactics is needed "

It sounds like standard issue "I know better than you" and "if I don't agree with it, nobody should be allowed to do it" to me.

I particularly love posts in which it says "I'm all for live and let live" and immediately goes on to prove that claim absolutely false.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think the OP is safe from catch STD's, No Sex is the Safest Sex.

Make love with somebody you love the most, yourself!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

would rather read what people want and decide not to partake, than be told what i can and cant get involved in or not, just because it may upset someones sensibility

Just to take issue with "whereas any that dont play bare, think they are safe so dont bother, and are potentially putting more people at risk."

We play ONLY safe and get checked regular, as do many others who play safe.... "

yes, should have sad some, as we are the same, so apologies

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I think the OP is safe from catch STD's, No Sex is the Safest Sex.

Make love with somebody you love the most, yourself!!

But make sure you wear a condom, hands can carry much bacteria!!

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By *uietlyKinkyUsCouple
over a year ago

midlands

Just ignore them in the forums & block everyone they verify.

works for me

You can't make the site police people just use the tools the site gives you.

Protect yourself & think everyone else plays bare. That's all you can do.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

hi all

surely the thing is that it takes 2 to tango. I am not going to be judgemental in any way but what I would say is always assume some one that is or has been sexually active may have or had any number of

such as

ghonorea ( now even drug resistant strains out there ), syphylis chlamidia, warts, hiv hep C hep A hep B to name a few

everyone should get checked regularly and behave in a reasoned manner.

And we had better remember that condoms dont protecrt against all infections all the time, oral sex can transmit many infections

I dont think banning advertising will stop less than safe practices nor do I believe people that practice safe sex are imune from having something nor do i believe everyone has a check up and is aware of their sexual health.

basically its a case of being as sensible as consensual adults feel they want to be with each other.

my personal preferance is to wear a jacket for dinner lol

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By *otlovefun42Couple
over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"As an adult, I'll make my own decisions, thanks. I don't need an uppity 29-year old who has been here for 5 weeks telling me how to live my life.

What's next? Users have to declare their BMI and overweight people are banned because the site can't be seen to accept unhealthy people?

The site should clearly ban smokers. Smoking kills. The site should be responsible for the health of these people and anyone harmed by passive smoking and should ban smokers.

Where exactly do we stop?

I don't need or want anyone policing my every move and telling me what is best for me. I do my research and I decide what risks I will, and will not, accept.

We live in enough of a nanny state as it is."

Spot on. The left wing nannies will try anything to ban well anything

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I meant people could not distinguish between a ban on bareback sex and the ban of the promotion of bareback sex!

It's free choice and informed decisions . Lets ban oral if its about the spread of infection . Its not just bareback sex where its spread. Get to know people , use protection and have safe fun.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Got fed up reading this thread about safe sex bareback etc

As the op states about banning bareback the op hasn't mentioned about the bloodports topic that you see on some profiles on this site, or about banning the people who have played with people who do bareback

So it seem that the thread has been made just to waste a bit of time up out of the ops day,

We don't play with bareback just our preferance, but its down to the consenting adults choice

Right of for a brew now shit time to worry who's drank out the cup before me well think it safer if I ban cups lol

Chris

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"...or just choose to not meet them."

this and block :0

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

what a crock of crap, lets ban oral as it carries risk, lets ban meeting for sex as that alone carries risk, maybe we should wear a different pair of surgical gloves for each person when playing in a group. Or lets just not have sex at all. What happened to making adult choices?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"what a crock of crap, lets ban oral as it carries risk, lets ban meeting for sex as that alone carries risk, maybe we should wear a different pair of surgical gloves for each person when playing in a group. Or lets just not have sex at all. What happened to making adult choices?

Love the glove idea , that's better than my cup banning

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By *uby0000Woman
over a year ago

hertfordshire

"hi all

such as

ghonorea ( now even drug resistant strains out there ), syphylis chlamidia, warts, hiv hep C hep A hep B to name a few

everyone should get checked regularly and behave in a reasoned manner.

And we had better remember that condoms dont protecrt against all infections all the time, oral sex can transmit many infections

basically its a case of being as sensible as consensual adults feel they want to be with each other.

my personal preferance is to wear a jacket for dinner lol"

dinner could be interesting if a jacket is all you wear!!! lol don't spill anything on to your lap lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"it really is difficult to have an intelligent debate on here.

Let me repeat "stop the advertising if bareback sex" obviously you cannot stop people having bareback sex! But you can with simple steps discourage the promotion of bareback.

But is it promotion or people just telling people they play bareback so anyone who doesn't can avoid them?"

banning wouldn't stop it happening, but seems to me would put people at a higher risk as they would not be able to make an informed choice

but i'm not a clever bod

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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum

IMO Fab as a site is a tool to enable people of a certain lifestyle to get together. I have not seen Fab promoting BB sex itself, although they allow posts requesting it because the Fab admin aren't policing our meets.

As has already been said, banning it from the site would just stop people from requesting BB meets on the forums. How would the admin check its not being promoted on private messages? Read them all? There's something I would prefer not happen.

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By *igSuki81Man
over a year ago

Retirement Village

Can we ban people who try and dictate what others do in their lives

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"IMO Fab as a site is a tool to enable people of a certain lifestyle to get together. I have not seen Fab promoting BB sex itself, although they allow posts requesting it because the Fab admin aren't policing our meets.

I am sure they read many private messages.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

Starting to censor individuals who consensually engage in whatever pleasures they choose is just one step away from swinging, which is frowned on by others, also being legitimate fodder for censorship.

Either we accept that adults with their own faculties are able and free to live their lives as they wish, or we ban all liberty that we have and live in a totalitarian society, without freedom of choice.

If someone was advertising bareback as a sure way of having better sex with nil risks, then I'd call in trading standards, but I don't think any of them do this.

Freedom or control - we all have a choice, and I'd choose freedom to live as I am, and allow others to make their own choices upon their sexual lives. I haven't noticed any undue 'promotion' of bareback, but I don't look for it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Bare back, smokers and drinkers oh and us fatties too ban the lot!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Bare back, smokers and drinkers oh and us fatties too ban the lot!

not so keen on gingers, but I don't think its catching

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By *uby0000Woman
over a year ago

hertfordshire

be really quiet if we banned everyone

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"be really quiet if we banned everyone

but just think of the housework we could get done

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

No as its by preference if you like bareback, I dont mind it, I like it mmmmmm x.

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By * Busty HotwifeCouple
over a year ago

Bradford

and do you think they would be honest if they faced a ban.

it is better they advertise their honesty, it allows an informed choice.

I believe them more than I do people who declare they never bareback"

Absolutely!! What a ridiculous, controlling idea!

Let people advertise and make their own choices, then you know those that DO advertise rather than lie, and you can make an informed choice.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

or Just put an option in search engine that excludes people who like bareback...then they will never show up on any search

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Sometimes it is better to just take a stance.. There have been real cases of people deliberately infecting people and it shouldn't be made easy for them. The anonymity of fav means people are unlikely to be able to inform people if they find out they are infected. "

But it isnt made easy for them, if they advertise their interest then the rest of us can avoid them. Banning them doesnt make the problem go away.

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By *extoysareusCouple
over a year ago

kinky heaven

Ban this ban that!!!

people should take responsibility of their own lives only without restricting others.

Its an adult site ffs

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Maybe im missing something but I read the OP as advocating that Fab be seen as not promoting BB by refusing to allow it to be openly advertised and not a blanket ban on those who partake.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

[Removed by poster at 05/12/13 18:27:21]

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman
over a year ago

evesham

"Maybe im missing something but I read the OP as advocating that Fab be seen as not promoting BB by refusing to allow it to be openly advertised and not a blanket ban on those who partake.

But it doesn't promote it. It allows For general adult discussion around it.

I've never seen Fab fly a flag that says 'BB IS A OK, YOU ShOULD TRY IT'

To be honest, if an adult can't just say no Andlook after tthemselves I do worry a bit.

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By *heScotandthegirlCouple
over a year ago

London & Edinburgh

I'd rather they were honest... Then we choose not to meet.

I agree that banning would just make them then lie.

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By *AURA6969TV/TS
over a year ago

RUGBY

If your not into BB then avoid couples who do it simple . Not rocket science really is it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 05/12/13 18:36:06]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You treat everyone as a potential risk, protect yourself and never take anyone's word they're STD free.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Banning it in here would help.

Because swingers are a close knit community The risk climbs dramatically.. For example one super stud that everyone trusts going around spreading to lots of people, before anyone knows it is too late. This has happened through sites like this. "
Not the place to be high and mighty ..each to there own ...banning people who indulge in a natural activity from a sex site ..really?

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By *inaTitzTV/TS
over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

Has the OP been back on since the first few posts?

If not, he is in for a surprise when he checks this thread.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Maybe im missing something but I read the OP as advocating that Fab be seen as not promoting BB by refusing to allow it to be openly advertised and not a blanket ban on those who partake.

But it doesn't promote it. It allows For general adult discussion around it.

I've never seen Fab fly a flag that says 'BB IS A OK, YOU ShOULD TRY IT'

To be honest, if an adult can't just say no Andlook after tthemselves I do worry a bit. "

Agreed n all I said was that id read it as suggesting fab did its bit for the promotion of safe sex by not having it on profiles....if the 'we're all adults and can make choices' argument applied to everything there would be some scary profiles....many have pointed out people would lie but then lots assume that anyway so whats the difference. Im not agreeing/disagreeing im just saying i feel the OP has been elaborated on a tad....isnt he just discussing it? Why the attack on him by some thats all.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Maybe im missing something but I read the OP as advocating that Fab be seen as not promoting BB by refusing to allow it to be openly advertised and not a blanket ban on those who partake.

But it doesn't promote it. It allows For general adult discussion around it.

I've never seen Fab fly a flag that says 'BB IS A OK, YOU ShOULD TRY IT'

To be honest, if an adult can't just say no Andlook after tthemselves I do worry a bit.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

OP. That hole you dug. Get in it.

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By * Busty HotwifeCouple
over a year ago

Bradford

Does his freedom of speech supersedes others freedom of choice?

Or that by advocating censorship he has opened himself to criticism of his freedom of speech?

I believe he deserves some stick for advocating censorship in an environment where freedom of choice is the first and foremost rule.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Definition of stupid..

Requesting bareback from a bunch of people who are promiscuous and obviously more high risk.

I am all for freedom of choice but I believe if Fab took a stand and stated 'advertising bare back sex will result in a ban.'

Sometimes drastic action is necessary and this could have a real impact.

Mike x

Bareback not our thing but some into it. Anyone advertising bare we don't meet.

But then we adults and capable of making that decision ourselves

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

How??

They can still meet and play bare without advertising.

Just use your block bitton

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Maybe im missing something but I read the OP as advocating that Fab be seen as not promoting BB by refusing to allow it to be openly advertised and not a blanket ban on those who partake.

But it doesn't promote it. It allows For general adult discussion around it.

I've never seen Fab fly a flag that says 'BB IS A OK, YOU ShOULD TRY IT'

To be honest, if an adult can't just say no Andlook after tthemselves I do worry a bit.

Really? Well as I said, maybe it's just me lol ....doesn't make that impression on me ....I'll go back to sleep I think lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

why would any woman who doesn't do bare back let a man who does anywhere near her.

Banning will never stop anyone trying it, but saying no not with me you don't, may just get the message over.

In my day job, we are all responsible for our own safety, why should it be any different in our normal every day lives.

Get real, you either say yes and run the risk or say no

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I meant people could not distinguish between a ban on bareback sex and the ban of the promotion of bareback sex!

Most have actually distinguished the different between advertising you play bare and physically playing bare but are just disagreeing with you. I disagree too...I'd rather someone says on their profile that they play bare so that I know not to waste my time messaging them as I am not looking to meet people who choose to play bare with strangers.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

But it doesn't promote it. It allows For general adult discussion around it.

I've never seen Fab fly a flag that says 'BB IS A OK, YOU ShOULD TRY IT'

To be honest, if an adult can't just say no Andlook after tthemselves I do worry a bit. "

This is spot on... Bareback happens a lot... I see it every time I'm at a club... I just make my own choices

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By *antoplay1976Couple
over a year ago

Chico

There is always that. I'm sick of agency's government or otherwise policing my life. I live in California it's a nanny state if there ever was one. If Fab started policing this what would be next? Where would you draw the line? Do you use dental dams and condoms for oral sex? If not should you be banned?

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By *oveSlutForUseCouple
over a year ago

Brighton

"Definition of stupid..

Requesting bareback from a bunch of people who are promiscuous and obviously more high risk.

I am all for freedom of choice but I believe if Fab took a stand and stated 'advertising bare back sex will result in a ban.'

Sometimes drastic action is necessary and this could have a real impact.

Mike x

Fail to see what business it is of yours.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

To the OP

Let's just say Fab listened to you and went with your idea!

Do you think that because people can't put request for bb that they will not still do it if that's there thing, though other sites or others off here when arranging meets when they say their likes - dislikes through pm messages?

However the way that it is now you can see who these people are and make up your own mind to meet them or not which ever the case maybe.

If they can't put such things on there own profile which as nothing to do with any one else but them how would you know if your meeting with such a person?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Must say OP I've thoroughly enjoyed the debate your initial post created and been fascinated by the regular use of 'them' and 'they' throughout the thread by others! Here's a wee tip.... regard everyone you meet as habitual bareback players and make your decision from there, in the main I'm sure you will choose to cover up xxx

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By *abioMan
over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

the only true no risk safe sex is not to have sex at all...

So at the point when you advocate for celibacy, I'll then decide to listen...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Big brother watching over you. Everyone has a choice right or wrong. Some people are just stupid. Others make an informed choice. Each to their own. Be safe !!!

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By *heScotandthegirlCouple
over a year ago

London & Edinburgh

Would you ban all dangerous pastimes? Parachuting, rock climbing, horse riding? They all carry a risk of severe injury or death. Not a believer in bareback with strangers at all personally but each to their own, take what precautions you feel necessary personally and leave others to play as they wish. It's not against the law so why ban?

Master

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

ban Gods light shining down on you whilst in the shower

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Definition of stupid..

Requesting bareback from a bunch of people who are promiscuous and obviously more high risk.

I am all for freedom of choice but I believe if Fab took a stand and stated 'advertising bare back sex will result in a ban.'

Sometimes drastic action is necessary and this could have a real impact.

Mike x

Look at me. Look at me. I'm so righteous.

Just don't entertain them and move on. Make choices for yourself and not others. People in glasshouses?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Smoking and bareback. Both topics are posted on a regular basis. Both carry high risk but bareback sex would appear to be defended or justified with a passion with smokers being branded as walking dead. Weird.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Well we all adults. Keep your selfs clean and if you a hardcore swingers you should get checked out every couple months if you do bear back And why ban people who like to go bear back not all people like the feel of Johnny's

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By * Busty HotwifeCouple
over a year ago

Bradford

"the only true no risk safe sex is not to have sex at all...

So at the point when you advocate for celibacy, I'll then decide to listen...

Wise words Aristotle!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Maybe im missing something but I read the OP as advocating that Fab be seen as not promoting BB by refusing to allow it to be openly advertised and not a blanket ban on those who partake.

He could have worded the title of his thread better then

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Smoking and bareback. Both topics are posted on a regular basis. Both carry high risk but bareback sex would appear to be defended or justified with a passion with smokers being branded as walking dead. Weird. "
well that might be because smoking kills far more people than unprotected sex

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Make it as difficult as possible for people to exercise behaviour that puts others at risk. It would also help the reputation of swingers and counter the seedy image. "

Can you explain this comment please.

For example a person says they participate in bareback sex. Exactly how is that putting anyone at risk?

Rather then dictating to fab what they should ban, why not just take responsibility for your own sexual health & let all the other consenting adults do the same.

I choose to play safe with everyone and I get tested every 3 months. However I have no way of knowing if the people I meet are the same, I just assume anyone I meet has never been tested & has more then likely had sex bareback with someone.

I would rather the site promote safe sexual practices and honesty. If someone wants bareback it's better for them to be open & honest about it so that are given the choice to meet them or not.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Smoking and bareback. Both topics are posted on a regular basis. Both carry high risk but bareback sex would appear to be defended or justified with a passion with smokers being branded as walking dead. Weird. well that might be because smoking kills far more people than unprotected sex "

Im from south africa and would disagree.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Smoking and bareback. Both topics are posted on a regular basis. Both carry high risk but bareback sex would appear to be defended or justified with a passion with smokers being branded as walking dead. Weird. well that might be because smoking kills far more people than unprotected sex

Im from south africa and would disagree. "

I'm from wiltshire and I agree.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Smoking and bareback. Both topics are posted on a regular basis. Both carry high risk but bareback sex would appear to be defended or justified with a passion with smokers being branded as walking dead. Weird. well that might be because smoking kills far more people than unprotected sex

Im from south africa and would disagree. "
well most hiv is contracted from anal sex it is in fact very difficult to contract the disease through vaginal penetration even if one or both hss the disease

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Smoking and bareback. Both topics are posted on a regular basis. Both carry high risk but bareback sex would appear to be defended or justified with a passion with smokers being branded as walking dead. Weird. well that might be because smoking kills far more people than unprotected sex

Im from south africa and would disagree.

I'm from wiltshire and I agree."

Agree with what ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Smoking and bareback. Both topics are posted on a regular basis. Both carry high risk but bareback sex would appear to be defended or justified with a passion with smokers being branded as walking dead. Weird. well that might be because smoking kills far more people than unprotected sex

Im from south africa and would disagree. well most hiv is contracted from anal sex it is in fact very difficult to contract the disease through vaginal penetration even if one or both hss the disease "

Are you suggesting the HIV epidemic in Africa is due to anal sex ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Smoking and bareback. Both topics are posted on a regular basis. Both carry high risk but bareback sex would appear to be defended or justified with a passion with smokers being branded as walking dead. Weird. well that might be because smoking kills far more people than unprotected sex

Im from south africa and would disagree. well most hiv is contracted from anal sex it is in fact very difficult to contract the disease through vaginal penetration even if one or both hss the disease

Are you suggesting the HIV epidemic in Africa is due to anal sex ?"

Catholic church preaching no to condom use isn't it?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Smoking and bareback. Both topics are posted on a regular basis. Both carry high risk but bareback sex would appear to be defended or justified with a passion with smokers being branded as walking dead. Weird. well that might be because smoking kills far more people than unprotected sex

Im from south africa and would disagree. well most hiv is contracted from anal sex it is in fact very difficult to contract the disease through vaginal penetration even if one or both hss the disease

Are you suggesting the HIV epidemic in Africa is due to anal sex ?

Catholic church preaching no to condom use isn't it? "

Im pretty sure they dont support swinging either

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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum

"Smoking and bareback. Both topics are posted on a regular basis. Both carry high risk but bareback sex would appear to be defended or justified with a passion with smokers being branded as walking dead. Weird. well that might be because smoking kills far more people than unprotected sex

This is the exact thinking that caused gays to be ostracised for so long. I think you'll find that MF infection is on the rise, and a huge amount of infection is caused by dodgy blood transfusions. Transmission might have started through anal sex, but its not the only way now, not by a long way.

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