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"There is a great video online comparing consent to making somebody a cup of tea If you’ve not seen it, it’s well worth watching particularly in the context of swinging often people are parties need a bit of “Dutch courage” to play Recent High profile court cases (especially once from France) show the worst case scenario " I love this video. "And certainly don't make them drink tea if they are p@##£@d out. Un"*'@siouse people don't want tea." | |||
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"But I drink coffee!!" Then you dont want tea "simples" Watch the video its funny and informative | |||
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"TBH as my thing is mainly BDSM, in my view consent is what makes BDSM morally and ethically acceptable (but there are those to whom BDSM will never be acceptable). I have a huge interest in consent practically and the writing on it. " I also have a keen interest in consent and write on the subject, albeit from the perspective of street photography, primarily photographing people on the margins, but I think a lot of the same concepts apply. - Recognising the power imbalance when obtaining consent - consent should be informed - consent should be ongoing and can be withdrawn at any time - intent vs impact - having consent, being respectful, curious & empathetic doesn't mean harm still cannot be done. - consent doesn’t just include the act, in photography it includes how images are then used - consent can be formal and sometimes situational. | |||
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"There are a load of consent models out there, and it gets more complex by the day. Whichever consent model is used it still require good faith, ethical behaviour and the use of adult words and self advocacy." If there are multiple models, it's a pretty good indication that either none of them are any good, or that the models needed in different situations are wildly different. And I'm particularly concerned by any model that requires "adult words and self advocacy" to work. I'm probably going to get slammed for this, but here goes... I think when you walk into a swingers club, you give consent to being approached for sex. If a woman places her hand on my arm at work, I'd find that act deeply uncomfortable, but in a club I'd view it as a polite, non-verbal approach. I'm also not big a fan of purely verbal consent. I don't want to be put on the spot by being asked explicitly in front of others and I might be tempted to say yes just to avoid embarrassment. I'd much prefer her to touch my arm, and see how I react. And then if that works, become steadily more adventurous in her touches. And it makes it easy for me to back out at any stage. I do use verbal consent as a final step, but I'd prefer something more gentle in the build up. | |||
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"Sorry nope Its as simple as eye contact and "may I" to start the game. No room for misunderstanding of any type then." Maybe it's because I view consent as an ongoing, continuous thing, rather than a single step on the way? | |||
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"There are a load of consent models out there, and it gets more complex by the day. Whichever consent model is used it still require good faith, ethical behaviour and the use of adult words and self advocacy. If there are multiple models, it's a pretty good indication that either none of them are any good, or that the models needed in different situations are wildly different. And I'm particularly concerned by any model that requires "adult words and self advocacy" to work. I'm probably going to get slammed for this, but here goes... I think when you walk into a swingers club, you give consent to being approached for sex. If a woman places her hand on my arm at work, I'd find that act deeply uncomfortable, but in a club I'd view it as a polite, non-verbal approach. I'm also not big a fan of purely verbal consent. I don't want to be put on the spot by being asked explicitly in front of others and I might be tempted to say yes just to avoid embarrassment. I'd much prefer her to touch my arm, and see how I react. And then if that works, become steadily more adventurous in her touches. And it makes it easy for me to back out at any stage. I do use verbal consent as a final step, but I'd prefer something more gentle in the build up. " If you go into a cafe, it’s perfectly acceptable for the waitress to ask if you want a cup of tea… Not sure if you are being sarcastic. Tea = Sex People can offer you tea, it’s up to you if you drink it. You can change your mind, once they have made the tea. Just because you had a cup of tea with someone last week, doesn’t mean they have to drink tea with you all the time. The videos are not the final word. They are a first step in making people consider consent, presented in a humorous non-threatening manner. | |||
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"If you go into a cafe, it’s perfectly acceptable for the waitress to ask if you want a cup of tea" But that's where the comparison falls down, because there are almost no situations in which it's impolite to offer tea to someone, but there are very few situations where it's polite to offer them sex. While getting people to talk about consent is always a good thing, none of these models is foolproof, and relying purely on a set of procedural rules will get you into trouble. I'd say that it's not what you do, or how you do it, but it's about being polite, looking for the reactions from the person you're interested in, not putting them in a situation where it's difficult for them to say no. And continuing to do that all the way through. | |||
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"Its as simple as eye contact" It's perhaps worth making the point that a lot of neuro-divergent people struggle to make eye contact. Given that such people seem to be over-represented amongst swingers, I don't think that it's a thing we should rely on. | |||
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"Its as simple as eye contact It's perhaps worth making the point that a lot of neuro-divergent people struggle to make eye contact. Given that such people seem to be over-represented amongst swingers, I don't think that it's a thing we should rely on. " A good snip to misrepresent what was said Thats why the statment was eye contact along with "may I" And that is not consent over and done it is as i stated the opening gambit it works well for us and is clear and concise that i may touch but more is the be negotiated with verbal or non verbal prompts | |||
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"TBH as my thing is mainly BDSM, in my view consent is what makes BDSM morally and ethically acceptable (but there are those to whom BDSM will never be acceptable). I have a huge interest in consent practically and the writing on it. I also have a keen interest in consent and write on the subject, albeit from the perspective of street photography, primarily photographing people on the margins, but I think a lot of the same concepts apply. - Recognising the power imbalance when obtaining consent - consent should be informed - consent should be ongoing and can be withdrawn at any time - intent vs impact - having consent, being respectful, curious & empathetic doesn't mean harm still cannot be done. - consent doesn’t just include the act, in photography it includes how images are then used - consent can be formal and sometimes situational. I agree with your bullet points apart from the first bullet point which I am still thinking through. However, your first bullet point does represent the current position in thoughtful BDSM so your bullet points contain in my view, entirely sensible advice. Graydancer who was the first podcaster on rope back in the early 2000s (and probably the best rope podcast, apologies to The Rope Podcast); has an episode on the imbalance power. It applies the presumption of the imbalance of power to those who tie against those who are tied. I am not wholly convinced, but imbalance of power is something I take into account, and those who Top or take the role of Dominant should also take into account. " | |||
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"TBH as my thing is mainly BDSM, in my view consent is what makes BDSM morally and ethically acceptable (but there are those to whom BDSM will never be acceptable). I have a huge interest in consent practically and the writing on it. I also have a keen interest in consent and write on the subject, albeit from the perspective of street photography, primarily photographing people on the margins, but I think a lot of the same concepts apply. - Recognising the power imbalance when obtaining consent - consent should be informed - consent should be ongoing and can be withdrawn at any time - intent vs impact - having consent, being respectful, curious & empathetic doesn't mean harm still cannot be done. - consent doesn’t just include the act, in photography it includes how images are then used - consent can be formal and sometimes situational. I agree with your bullet points apart from the first bullet point which I am still thinking through. However, your first bullet point does represent the current position in thoughtful BDSM so your bullet points contain in my view, entirely sensible advice. Graydancer who was the first podcaster on rope back in the early 2000s (and probably the best rope podcast, apologies to The Rope Podcast); has an episode on the imbalance power. It applies the presumption of the imbalance of power to those who tie against those who are tied. I am not wholly convinced, but imbalance of power is something I take into account, and those who Top or take the role of Dominant should also take into account. " So it’s more about two individuals, there will always be an imbalance of power.one might assume the other is more experienced and wiser, one might love or need the other person more, it’s very difficult to have true equality. Money, Power, Status, Reputation, Mobility even. Is the person feeling under any pressure or influence to comply when they consent. Lots of examples from Photography, famous male photographers have gotten female subjects to consent to all kinds of things, hoping it will further there careers, but it doesn’t make it ethical…or does it? | |||
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"There are a load of consent models out there, and it gets more complex by the day. Whichever consent model is used it still require good faith, ethical behaviour and the use of adult words and self advocacy. If there are multiple models, it's a pretty good indication that either none of them are any good, or that the models needed in different situations are wildly different. And I'm particularly concerned by any model that requires "adult words and self advocacy" to work. I'm probably going to get slammed for this, but here goes... I think when you walk into a swingers club, you give consent to being approached for sex. If a woman places her hand on my arm at work, I'd find that act deeply uncomfortable, but in a club I'd view it as a polite, non-verbal approach. I'm also not big a fan of purely verbal consent. I don't want to be put on the spot by being asked explicitly in front of others and I might be tempted to say yes just to avoid embarrassment. I'd much prefer her to touch my arm, and see how I react. And then if that works, become steadily more adventurous in her touches. And it makes it easy for me to back out at any stage. I do use verbal consent as a final step, but I'd prefer something more gentle in the build up. " There are different models as models were changed as thinking developed over time and the models needed adjusting to reflect changing practicality. A bit like cars have changed to add safety elements. At the end of the day everyone has to act in accordance with their own risk profile and preferences. I personally would be wary of someone who could not use adult terms and self advocacy. As in my view it is important to avoid confusion. Everyone in this thread refers to "sex" but no-one has actually said what they mean by "sex". Using the example of tea, the person offered may not want the English Breakfast Tea offered, but they may be happy with ginger and honey tea. I would suggest similar should apply in a sexual or BDSM context (although for BDSM I have long process before play). A couple of alternative views. First, for some people touching them without prior consent would be unacceptable. Second, no-one should be slammed for their views, but should accept some may disagree with those views. Therefore, it could be suggested that being at a swingers club at most may indicate that a person may be approached for conversation, from which if there is compatibility, sex may be raised. | |||
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"TBH as my thing is mainly BDSM, in my view consent is what makes BDSM morally and ethically acceptable (but there are those to whom BDSM will never be acceptable). I have a huge interest in consent practically and the writing on it. I also have a keen interest in consent and write on the subject, albeit from the perspective of street photography, primarily photographing people on the margins, but I think a lot of the same concepts apply. - Recognising the power imbalance when obtaining consent - consent should be informed - consent should be ongoing and can be withdrawn at any time - intent vs impact - having consent, being respectful, curious & empathetic doesn't mean harm still cannot be done. - consent doesn’t just include the act, in photography it includes how images are then used - consent can be formal and sometimes situational. I agree with your bullet points apart from the first bullet point which I am still thinking through. However, your first bullet point does represent the current position in thoughtful BDSM so your bullet points contain in my view, entirely sensible advice. Graydancer who was the first podcaster on rope back in the early 2000s (and probably the best rope podcast, apologies to The Rope Podcast); has an episode on the imbalance power. It applies the presumption of the imbalance of power to those who tie against those who are tied. I am not wholly convinced, but imbalance of power is something I take into account, and those who Top or take the role of Dominant should also take into account. So it’s more about two individuals, there will always be an imbalance of power.one might assume the other is more experienced and wiser, one might love or need the other person more, it’s very difficult to have true equality. Money, Power, Status, Reputation, Mobility even. Is the person feeling under any pressure or influence to comply when they consent. Lots of examples from Photography, famous male photographers have gotten female subjects to consent to all kinds of things, hoping it will further there careers, but it doesn’t make it ethical…or does it?" What you state seems to be the modern view of consent and certainly in the more ethically minded in the BDSM world. I tend to be of the view that consenting adults are able to agree between themselves. However post "Me too", people are aware that consent may be compromised. Additionally there may be cultural and societal factors to play on an individual. I think these days consent requires good faith, and not taking advantage of the other, and consideration of the other person. This works both ways. | |||
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"TBH as my thing is mainly BDSM, in my view consent is what makes BDSM morally and ethically acceptable (but there are those to whom BDSM will never be acceptable). I have a huge interest in consent practically and the writing on it. I also have a keen interest in consent and write on the subject, albeit from the perspective of street photography, primarily photographing people on the margins, but I think a lot of the same concepts apply. - Recognising the power imbalance when obtaining consent - consent should be informed - consent should be ongoing and can be withdrawn at any time - intent vs impact - having consent, being respectful, curious & empathetic doesn't mean harm still cannot be done. - consent doesn’t just include the act, in photography it includes how images are then used - consent can be formal and sometimes situational. I agree with your bullet points apart from the first bullet point which I am still thinking through. However, your first bullet point does represent the current position in thoughtful BDSM so your bullet points contain in my view, entirely sensible advice. Graydancer who was the first podcaster on rope back in the early 2000s (and probably the best rope podcast, apologies to The Rope Podcast); has an episode on the imbalance power. It applies the presumption of the imbalance of power to those who tie against those who are tied. I am not wholly convinced, but imbalance of power is something I take into account, and those who Top or take the role of Dominant should also take into account. So it’s more about two individuals, there will always be an imbalance of power.one might assume the other is more experienced and wiser, one might love or need the other person more, it’s very difficult to have true equality. Money, Power, Status, Reputation, Mobility even. Is the person feeling under any pressure or influence to comply when they consent. Lots of examples from Photography, famous male photographers have gotten female subjects to consent to all kinds of things, hoping it will further there careers, but it doesn’t make it ethical…or does it? What you state seems to be the modern view of consent and certainly in the more ethically minded in the BDSM world. I tend to be of the view that consenting adults are able to agree between themselves. However post "Me too", people are aware that consent may be compromised. Additionally there may be cultural and societal factors to play on an individual. I think these days consent requires good faith, and not taking advantage of the other, and consideration of the other person. This works both ways. " Yes, and the main point I was making was just recognise/accept that there almost always will be an imbalance of power with sex relationships, which is slightly different from good faith - good faith is about your intentions, whereas recognising power imbalance is about the structure of the relationship. | |||
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"Its as simple as eye contact It's perhaps worth making the point that a lot of neuro-divergent people struggle to make eye contact. Given that such people seem to be over-represented amongst swingers, I don't think that it's a thing we should rely on. A good snip to misrepresent what was said Thats why the statment was eye contact along with "may I" And that is not consent over and done it is as i stated the opening gambit it works well for us and is clear and concise that i may touch but more is the be negotiated with verbal or non verbal prompts" But 'may I' on it's own is ridiculously vague. 'May I' what? There's a huge gulf between may I touch you and may I stuck my dick in you. Of course you can repeat the question at any stage and add in specific actions, but simply saying 'May I' (in my opinion anyway) just leaves far too much room for misunderstanding and incorrect assumptions. Obi | |||
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"If you go into a cafe, it’s perfectly acceptable for the waitress to ask if you want a cup of tea But that's where the comparison falls down, because there are almost no situations in which it's impolite to offer tea to someone, but there are very few situations where it's polite to offer them sex. While getting people to talk about consent is always a good thing, none of these models is foolproof, and relying purely on a set of procedural rules will get you into trouble. I'd say that it's not what you do, or how you do it, but it's about being polite, looking for the reactions from the person you're interested in, not putting them in a situation where it's difficult for them to say no. And continuing to do that all the way through. " You are not the target audience. Sadly, there are people out (mostly young men) who do need to have the basics of consent, explained to them | |||
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"I do wish consent was talked about more in swinging or with casual hookup /scene type meets. From experience i find 'consent by omission' and 'implied consent' are the practiced consent types. Even by 'nice guys' or men in open relationships. If someone says their dominant but not bsdm dominant i just take that to mean dominant with zero responsibility for mutual wellbeing after they cum and willing to 'take what they want' not listen to 'no', hesitation ect" Hi firstly I hope what I wrote makes some sense Consent has to be impcit and rightly so Hi as a dominant bloke I prefer the term assertive,there are many strands to people saying they are Dominant. I agree some blokes will not even think about after care for person they meet not everyone are like that thankfully. In my opinion and years in the role bdsm or not bdsm dominant exactly the same and especially consent. No means no regardless of any sexual matters as this refers to sex. | |||
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"Its as simple as eye contact It's perhaps worth making the point that a lot of neuro-divergent people struggle to make eye contact. Given that such people seem to be over-represented amongst swingers, I don't think that it's a thing we should rely on. A good snip to misrepresent what was said Thats why the statment was eye contact along with "may I" And that is not consent over and done it is as i stated the opening gambit it works well for us and is clear and concise that i may touch but more is the be negotiated with verbal or non verbal prompts But 'may I' on it's own is ridiculously vague. 'May I' what? There's a huge gulf between may I touch you and may I stuck my dick in you. Of course you can repeat the question at any stage and add in specific actions, but simply saying 'May I' (in my opinion anyway) just leaves far too much room for misunderstanding and incorrect assumptions. Obi" I shall go my own way thanks. May I is the start of the sentence the rest of it varies depending on what you are doing. If i has to write out exact words for every time we have said it it may take a while  | |||
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"Its as simple as eye contact It's perhaps worth making the point that a lot of neuro-divergent people struggle to make eye contact. Given that such people seem to be over-represented amongst swingers, I don't think that it's a thing we should rely on. A good snip to misrepresent what was said Thats why the statment was eye contact along with "may I" And that is not consent over and done it is as i stated the opening gambit it works well for us and is clear and concise that i may touch but more is the be negotiated with verbal or non verbal prompts But 'may I' on it's own is ridiculously vague. 'May I' what? There's a huge gulf between may I touch you and may I stuck my dick in you. Of course you can repeat the question at any stage and add in specific actions, but simply saying 'May I' (in my opinion anyway) just leaves far too much room for misunderstanding and incorrect assumptions. Obi" Worryingly I have seen recipient individuals, who are engaging in impact play for the first time at a swingers club, leave themselves totally open to someone new and their "bag of toys". "May I" really does cut it for either parties consent, let alone each others safety in the heat of the moment! | |||
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