FabSwingers.com forum: is free speech dead

By *ola cubes OP Man
over a year ago

coatbridge

We all like to claim our right to free speech but do we actually have that right anymore?

I feel free speech in 2018 is only if you say things that are deemed allowed actual free speech can actually land you in jail now.

this isnt about whether a persons views are right or wrong its about is there such a thing as "free speech"

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By *exicolaMan
over a year ago

West Lothian

I would say its very much alive however in the online age you are much more likely to be challenged on any views.

Everyone tries so hard to look PC so the tiniest possibility of offence to someone or some group is likely to be called out upon.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"We all like to claim our right to free speech but do we actually have that right anymore?

I feel free speech in 2018 is only if you say things that are deemed allowed actual free speech can actually land you in jail now.

this isnt about whether a persons views are right or wrong its about is there such a thing as "free speech""

there is no longer free speech, you can only say what your government wants you to say, so many words are no longer allowed to be used

(unless behind closed doors)

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

"We all like to claim our right to free speech but do we actually have that right anymore?

I feel free speech in 2018 is only if you say things that are deemed allowed actual free speech can actually land you in jail now.

this isnt about whether a persons views are right or wrong its about is there such a thing as "free speech""

Do you have examples of the sort of thing you are referring to?

If it is incitement to violence or whatever, I think that has always been frowned up, whether its online or in the pub.

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By *ola cubes OP Man
over a year ago

coatbridge

"We all like to claim our right to free speech but do we actually have that right anymore?

I feel free speech in 2018 is only if you say things that are deemed allowed actual free speech can actually land you in jail now.

this isnt about whether a persons views are right or wrong its about is there such a thing as "free speech"

Do you have examples of the sort of thing you are referring to?

If it is incitement to violence or whatever, I think that has always been frowned up, whether its online or in the pub.

"
dont want to bog it down on specific incidents its more whether folk feel there is free speech or if people feel they can only say or express what is deemed allowed

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Heard the Canadian PM correct someone say mankind to peoplekind

Seriously WTF

World going mad!!

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By *awty MaxWoman
over a year ago

Edinburgh

An interesting question Kola.

I think we have free speech. I will always say what I think and be honest about my views.

I think 'free speech' does not mean the same to everyone.

For me it is about saying what you think and expressing your opinion, standing for what you believe in.

But some people hide behind the 'free speech' term to put others down and insult others. And for me that is not right.

Hope this makes sense

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By *awty MaxWoman
over a year ago

Edinburgh

[Removed by poster at 06/02/18 11:05:51]

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By *awty MaxWoman
over a year ago

Edinburgh

"Heard the Canadian PM correct someone say mankind to peoplekind

Seriously WTF

World going mad!!"

I agree!

I am currently following the French Academy as they want to change some grammar points because they are no longer 'appropriate'

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I wouldn't say dead but I do have concerns about universities banning speakers they don't agree with. While a lot of their views are unpalatable to me (leftie) I strongly think backward negative views that incite racism, violence and general hatred need to be defeated by strong debate and reasoning.

Well that's my take on it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Can we not just all go back to common sense?

As a woman and on the day of the 100year anniversary of the women's right to vote

I couldn't give a toss about wether there "grid girls or chicks at the darts or wether a man is replaced as a person

As I said...common sense people!!

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By *awty MaxWoman
over a year ago

Edinburgh

"I wouldn't say dead but I do have concerns about universities banning speakers they don't agree with. While a lot of their views are unpalatable to me (leftie) I strongly think backward negative views that incite racism, violence and general hatred need to be defeated by strong debate and reasoning.

Well that's my take on it. "

I totally agree. I find more and more that people are unable to develop their arguments and express their reasoning.

A good debate does no harm. And by good I don't mean a debate where both parties are throwing statistics at each other and historical facts.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Free speech is alive and well, all that's changed is modern connectivity allows people to challenge opinions more than ever before and then we see the folk who mistakenly consider their right to free speech to in fact be a right to be listened to or a right to some protection from being told you are wrong, neither of which are rights that people do, or should, have.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 06/02/18 11:21:44]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Free speech is alive and well, all that's changed is modern connectivity allows people to challenge opinions more than ever before and then we see the folk who mistakenly consider their right to free speech to in fact be a right to be listened to or a right to some protection from being told you are wrong, neither

of which are rights that people do, or should, have."

Bang on.....

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By *is vixen at playCouple
over a year ago

Dundee

"I think 'free speech' does not mean the same to everyone.

For me it is about saying what you think and expressing your opinion, standing for what you believe in.

But some people hide behind the 'free speech' term to put others down and insult others. And for me that is not right.

Hope this makes sense

Totally agree with Max. Many people hide behind the badge of free speech when what they're actually doing is bullying and belittling others.

On a wider scope, others think that free speech means they can spout their vile and outdated views that are unacceptable today.

Of course they have the freedom to think like that, just as others have the freedom to point out that they're wrong and it won't be tolerated.

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By *earded blossomCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow

Free speech is still alive and kicking, wether someone’s takes offence or not is entirely different

John

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By *eefyBangerMan
over a year ago

edinburgh

"Everyone tries so hard to look PC so the tiniest possibility of offence to someone or some group is likely to be called out upon."

It's sad isn't it

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By *uietbloke67Man
over a year ago

outside your bedroom window ;-)

As long as you dont insult abuse or stigmatise someone then free speach is alive and kicking

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Free speech is dead in UK. You cannot say what you think or feel anymore without some eejit complaint you're a racist, homophobe, misogynist, hate crime merchant etc. UK legislation has been surreptitiously passed to hinder and denigrate free speech. There is no such thing in UK now. Especially in Scotland. Nicola Krankie et al have brought in many barriers to all freedoms over the past 10 years. People are fickle and cannot see it. Only US has true freedom of speech and liberty. Sad but true

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"We all like to claim our right to free speech but do we actually have that right anymore?

I feel free speech in 2018 is only if you say things that are deemed allowed actual free speech can actually land you in jail now.

this isnt about whether a persons views are right or wrong its about is there such a thing as "free speech""

In all honesty, I don't truly believe we ever Have!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Free speech is dead in UK. You cannot say what you think or feel anymore without some eejit complaint you're a racist, homophobe, misogynist, hate crime merchant etc. UK legislation has been surreptitiously passed to hinder and denigrate free speech. There is no such thing in UK now. Especially in Scotland. Nicola Krankie et al have brought in many barriers to all freedoms over the past 10 years. People are fickle and cannot see it. Only US has true freedom of speech and liberty. Sad but true

You support Donald Trump, right?

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By *ola cubes OP Man
over a year ago

coatbridge

"Heard the Canadian PM correct someone say mankind to peoplekind

Seriously WTF

World going mad!!"
gender discrimanatory language in canada is illegal look up jordan peterson on youtube really good watch imo

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By *vbride1963TV/TS
over a year ago

E.K . Glasgow

£10 and I’ll post my views on this .

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"£10 and I’ll post my views on this . "

Steph, you're wicked!

I don't think there is any one answer to this. In comparison to some countries in the world we do have free speech, yet it is also said we can only say as much as "they" allow us to and know as much as "they" want us to know. "They" being the establishment and those in power in terms of government and money (I presume).

As to what we say and differing opinions, if you believe in free speech then even those who have an abhorrent opinion should still have the right to express it. An abhorrent opinion to me would be one that is racist, sexist or a host of the other "ist's".

Acting on those opinions to the detriment or pain of someone/thing else is a different question but free speech should mean anyone is free to voice their views and opinions.

So... with that in mind I say no, we probably don't have free speech.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Can we not just all go back to common sense?

As a woman and on the day of the 100year anniversary of the women's right to vote

I couldn't give a toss about wether there "grid girls or chicks at the darts or wether a man is replaced as a person

As I said...common sense people!!"

Agree ..

However some people seem too lack common sense .x

Good post Kola

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

You support Donald Trump, right?"

Don't know why you're asking this question? Would that make someone bad in your book if they did?

I am only posting my opinion on free speech in UK and US as I see it.

Does not mean I agree with what every person says. But right or wrong, in the US you have the right to say anything on any subject or person freely without fear or favour. In UK we don't have that right due to hate crime / descrimation legislation. Therefore, rightly or wrongly we do not have free speech.

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By *awty MaxWoman
over a year ago

Edinburgh

In UK we don't have that right due to hate crime / descrimation legislation.

That is what I mean when I say people don't have the same interpretation of what 'free speech' is.

Can you clarify this statement please, I would be interested to find out if you think those legislation you mention are futil or not?

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By *awty MaxWoman
over a year ago

Edinburgh

futile*

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Little defensive over a simple question no? Especially given I didn't imply it be a negative anymore than I did a positive.

I'm now also wondering if you could give an example of something you apparently can say in the US but aren't allowed to here? If you'd be so kind as to indulge me.

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By *uzzy-LogicMan
over a year ago

Fochabers

An interesting question Kola.

I think we have free speech. I will always say what I think and be honest about my views.

I think 'free speech' does not mean the same to everyone.

For me it is about saying what you think and expressing your opinion, standing for what you believe in.

But some people hide behind the 'free speech' term to put others down and insult others. And for me that is not right.

Hope this makes sense

I agree think some people believe that free speech means they can say what they like no matter how hurtful and hate filled and not be held accountable for what they have said.

When in reality we are getting better at holding people to account on things they say online especially. When it was a newer medium people used it to hide behind and say horrific things that they would not dare say face to face or in public but as new laws holding these people accountable come in, they cry out that they are losing their free speech.

Thats my opinion anyway

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By *heesyheadbandMan
over a year ago

Glenrothes

i have the right to offend, if i don't agree with something i have the right to say so wither you like my opinion or not as long as it's done in a tasteful non violent manner.

but even then some people would still consider that as an act of violence simply because it doesn't agree/fit in with their narrative.

i don't have to agree with everything just because a minority think otherwise. getting a little tired of it all to be honest, people being branded this and that simply because they can't come back with a good argument.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Thing is often people are being branded "this and that" because....y'know....they are.

Not always, but plenty.

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By *heesyheadbandMan
over a year ago

Glenrothes

Your a Hillary supporter, right?

;-)

lol

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By *alcon43Woman
over a year ago

Paisley

I believe in having the freedom to voice my opinion and fortunately we are allowed to do so. Although not everyone will agree, a healthy debate can raise interesting points.

We have the right to stand up for what we believe in and that’s the only way in which changes can be made. Otherwise we would be like sheep and follow the crowd.

We should be thankful that we can stand up for what we believe in and make our voices heard. Even in the 21st century women are still fighting for equality in the UK. Have we really moved far in 100 years?

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By *estless nativeMan
over a year ago

near Glasgow

Freedom of speech, a little phrase which is opn to interpretation.

To me it means that everyone is at liberty to say whatever they choose.

However, its not necesssarily free as there can be consequences, and as a result a responsibility to truth and also to think about what you are about to say before you say it.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Nope, I'm really, really not at all.

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By *hat_not_whatMan
over a year ago

Glasgow West

The U.K. has never had the right to freedom of speech. There has always been legislation that limits what people can say. People were being prosecuted for blasphemy in the 70s and these laws were only abolished in 2008.

If people think you’re racist, homophobic, misogynistic or xenophobic, it’s probably because you are or your expressing views that are.

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By *UNKIEMan
over a year ago

south east

A good question :

I think in general yes we do have freedom of speech within reason

Freedom to incite racism / sexism / bigotry and hatred isn't speech that's just being a dick and should be dealt with appropriately there is no room for it in modern day society

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By *vbride1963TV/TS
over a year ago

E.K . Glasgow

Still no offers

ok maybe just a fiver then .

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By *ola cubes OP Man
over a year ago

coatbridge

Many have highlighted its dependant on what you deem "free speech"

How I tend to view free speech is the freedom to say what you want regardless of if feelings will be hurt.

for myself words hurt feelings this shouldnt be illegal acting on words and doing illegal acts is another story. It suprises me how many claim there is and should remain freedom of speech...........as long as this that or the other is not said is that not contradictory.

another reason I prefer open free speech is you wont stop views and by restricting it you force it underground where the view cant be challenged and perhaps views changed

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Many have highlighted its dependant on what you deem "free speech"

How I tend to view free speech is the freedom to say what you want regardless of if feelings will be hurt.

another reason I prefer open free speech is you wont stop views and by restricting it you force it underground where the view cant be challenged and perhaps views changed"

Your last point is a good one.

Also, on forums like this, free, honest, open dialogue is a very useful filter.

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By *vbride1963TV/TS
over a year ago

E.K . Glasgow

Here we go I Never got paid for this post .

There are limits imposed on free speech ( unless it’s in private ) liable laws , legal injunctions and secrets government or private .

Freedom of speech would be the press could print the names of famous folk they thought were having affairs without an injunction being granted to stop publication .

I’d not be sued for saying something about someone or something that I truly believed was true even if I was later to find out I was wrong .

In private we say what we want amongst our friends knowing it will go no further than the four walls .

Best thread of the year nomination .

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By *eADevilCouple
over a year ago

Blantyre

"Here we go I Never got paid for this post .

There are limits imposed on free speech ( unless it’s in private ) liable laws , legal injunctions and secrets government or private .

Freedom of speech would be the press could print the names of famous folk they thought were having affairs without an injunction being granted to stop publication .

I’d not be sued for saying something about someone or something that I truly believed was true even if I was later to find out I was wrong .

In private we say what we want amongst our friends knowing it will go no further than the four walls .

Best thread of the year nomination . "

No but youd be sued for defamation of character do same thing really. Just worded different.

Of course we dont have FREEDOM of speach and quite rightly so. If your inciting violence or riots you should be stopped , simple. But because of this there is a grand canyon of a difference between enciting riots and saying something that someone takes offence to. You should all take a look at some Ben Shapiro vids on you tube. He speaks his mind without abusing anyone. He destroys anyone who takes offence to his views by simply talking and explaining his views. Also using examples. Easier if you watch vids, he talks so much sense about todays snowflake society.

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By *uddleanstrokeMan
over a year ago

Bristol / Crete / Glasgow

Compared to a lot of countries - yes in UK we do have relatively good “free speech” (yes - caveated by need not to offend). But it’s not just an assessment of being able to open my mouth to say whatever - but that our formal media is rooted in relatively good & open practices (yes - inc BBC) - and not just the views of rich offshore tycoons (like Murdoch, Barclays & Dacre).

In far too many countries basic free speech (and right to vote on who the local politicians are) is increasingly unavailable (and not just in Russia, China, Hong Kong, Turkey & more recently Malta & Poland). We can at least criticise, question our politicians, and vote them out. Or vote for the Monster Raving Looney Party! But if this only happens in some countries - can we really say “we have free speech”??

And re US - I don’t think that “free speech” extends to a “right to hold a gun” (or indeed a knife) a la Dunblane. So yes - there are caveats etc - but I don’t accept that “freedom of speech” should allow mass shootings (tho i note “In recent years, the number of public mass shootings in US has increased substantially, even though there has been a massive decrease in gun related death”).

So as we celebrate “suffragettes” and “civil rights movement” .. we need to remember we still need “Black Lives Matter”, “ metoo” & hijab campaigns. “Free speech” is in many ways an ongoing campaign (not an end result) where we need ongoing transparency & a willingness to listen.

And in the Fab world .. thank god for the “Block” button .. (used cautiously)- even tho I also have myself been blocked for things I consider unreasonable!! just see it as their loss. Now If only we had a “Brexit block button”!!! Tho would extended use of the block button simple hide the “free speech” we don’t like?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"We all like to claim our right to free speech but do we actually have that right anymore?

I feel free speech in 2018 is only if you say things that are deemed allowed actual free speech can actually land you in jail now.

this isnt about whether a persons views are right or wrong its about is there such a thing as "free speech""

Nonsense.

Free speech is more prevalent now than it has ever been.

Free speech cannot land you in jail.

You're confusing free speech with hate speech.

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By *ola cubes OP Man
over a year ago

coatbridge

"We all like to claim our right to free speech but do we actually have that right anymore?

I feel free speech in 2018 is only if you say things that are deemed allowed actual free speech can actually land you in jail now.

this isnt about whether a persons views are right or wrong its about is there such a thing as "free speech"

Nonsense.

Free speech is more prevalent now than it has ever been.

Free speech cannot land you in jail.

You're confusing free speech with hate speech. "
lol hate speech is a relativly new term that sneaks parts of free speech away legally according to some.

ive been to speakers corner recently and there were no participants as opposed to when I lived there you would see lots of marginal speakers (mostly spouting cack but speaking freely none the less)

it would seem yours and my version of free speech are polar opposites

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"We all like to claim our right to free speech but do we actually have that right anymore?

I feel free speech in 2018 is only if you say things that are deemed allowed actual free speech can actually land you in jail now.

this isnt about whether a persons views are right or wrong its about is there such a thing as "free speech"

Nonsense.

Free speech is more prevalent now than it has ever been.

Free speech cannot land you in jail.

You're confusing free speech with hate speech. lol hate speech is a relativly new term that sneaks parts of free speech away legally according to some.

ive been to speakers corner recently and there were no participants as opposed to when I lived there you would see lots of marginal speakers (mostly spouting cack but speaking freely none the less)

it would seem yours and my version of free speech are polar opposites"

Nonetheless, free speech is all around us, growing and yes, we do have the right to it and unless you go around with your eyes closed and ears shut, you can't avoid it.

I'd like to hear some examples of people being jailed for their right to speak freely.

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By *eADevilCouple
over a year ago

Blantyre

"Compared to a lot of countries - yes in UK we do have relatively good “free speech” (yes - caveated by need not to offend). But it’s not just an assessment of being able to open my mouth to say whatever - but that our formal media is rooted in relatively good & open practices (yes - inc BBC) - and not just the views of rich offshore tycoons (like Murdoch, Barclays & Dacre).

Lol we need the " black lives matter " this movement is mainly directed at white american police officers who are deemed racist, yet, black lives matter is a racist movement in its own being. ie white lives dont matter. If it was not fundamentally a racist statement it should be ALL lives matter. I am not pro or anti this movement but this is FACT about the name of this movement.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What utter nonsense.

Please provide one single example of anyone even remotely affiliated with BLM who has ever said "white lives don't matter", I implore you.

I already know you won't because you can't.

Hearing "blacks lives matter" and automatically getting defensive and taking that to mean "white lives don't matter" makes as much sense as thinking that if I say "I like apples" then it must also automatically mean "I don't like bananas"......I like both.

Maybe to clear it up for the folk who get butthurt over the BLM tag they should rename it "Black Lives Matter As Well" but it hardly has the same ring to it.

Sure they could have called it "All Lives Mstter" but then that doesn't draw attention to their reason for being, the fact that black people in the U.S. (mostly the young men) are deemed utterly responsible with no real repercussions by elements of U.S. law enforcement. It's called BLACK lives matter because in this particular concern they're the ones being persecuted and sometimes murdered by cops, not because anyone is implying other lives don't matter.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

*utterly expendable

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By *ola cubes OP Man
over a year ago

coatbridge

Perhaps look at the mandates of what white people should do to see the racism from it.

This post was about free speech racism is another subject its also part os the reason I was trying to steer clear of individual cases

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By *awty MaxWoman
over a year ago

Edinburgh

I disagree with this!

But as Kola says it is off subject so I will not expand as someone kinda put my thought forward already

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What utter nonsense.

Please provide one single example of anyone even remotely affiliated with BLM who has ever said "white lives don't matter", I implore you.

I already know you won't because you can't.

Maybe to clear it up for the folk who get butthurt over the BLM tag they should rename it "Black Lives Matter As Well" but it hardly has the same ring to it.

Bang on. The definitive answer on this.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

spot on

all lives matter

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By *eADevilCouple
over a year ago

Blantyre

spot on

all lives matter

Ok off topic so wont quote stats etc . But why not call it ALL lives matter.?. Google the subject if you want more info . So much for free speech

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

spot on

all lives matter

Ok off topic so wont quote stats etc . But why not call it ALL lives matter.?. Google the subject if you want more info . So much for free speech

This IS free speech in action, you have the right to say what you did without persecution, and you did, and I have the right to say that what you said was ridiculous, as I did.

If you read the end of my comment you'll see where I explained why it is, rightly, called BLACK lives matter. There's a massively unequal epidemic of black people (mostly young men) being murdered by some (far from all) U.S. cops, now where that stat equal, or even close, across all races then there would be an argument for calling it All Lives Matter but it simply isn't the case.

All lives do matter, but it's black folk who immediately panic for their lives when pulled over by a cop in the States, because they've been given plenty reason to.

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By *eADevilCouple
over a year ago

Blantyre

spot on

all lives matter

Ok off topic so wont quote stats etc . But why not call it ALL lives matter.?. Google the subject if you want more info . So much for free speech

This IS free speech in action, you have the right to say what you did without persecution, and you did, and I have the right to say that what you said was ridiculous, as I did.

All lives do matter, but it's black folk who immediately panic for their lives when pulled over by a cop in the States, because they've been given plenty reason to."

You missed my

after my free speech comment. I also answered you by pm as off topic here. Anyway what were we saying about free speech

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By *eADevilCouple
over a year ago

Blantyre

spot on

all lives matter

Ok off topic so wont quote stats etc . But why not call it ALL lives matter.?. Google the subject if you want more info . So much for free speech

This IS free speech in action, you have the right to say what you did without persecution, and you did, and I have the right to say that what you said was ridiculous, as I did.

All lives do matter, but it's black folk who immediately panic for their lives when pulled over by a cop in the States, because they've been given plenty reason to.

You missed my

after my free speech comment. I also answered you by pm as off topic here. Anyway what were we saying about free speech

Lol A torrent of abuse in a pm and block . Discussions went well.

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By *onkeymagic50Man
over a year ago

Near the harbour

spot on

all lives matter

Ok off topic so wont quote stats etc . But why not call it ALL lives matter.?. Google the subject if you want more info . So much for free speech

This IS free speech in action, you have the right to say what you did without persecution, and you did, and I have the right to say that what you said was ridiculous, as I did.

All lives do matter, but it's black folk who immediately panic for their lives when pulled over by a cop in the States, because they've been given plenty reason to.

You missed my

after my free speech comment. I also answered you by pm as off topic here. Anyway what were we saying about free speech

Lol A torrent of abuse in a pm and block . Discussions went well.

Free speech is alive and strong .unless it offends someone ..which on here is easy then it's called .bigoted.sexist racists etc

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By *awty MaxWoman
over a year ago

Edinburgh

[Removed by poster at 07/02/18 17:54:12]

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By *awty MaxWoman
over a year ago

Edinburgh

Just a wee comment in passing lol

What I don’t get is when some/someone takes offence on behalf of someone else who is not offended

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By *andACouple
over a year ago

glasgow

"Just a wee comment in passing lol

What I don’t get is when some/someone takes offence on behalf of someone else who is not offended

We actually have a ridiculous law that deems this very thing should happen in certain situations.

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By *eADevilCouple
over a year ago

Blantyre

"Just a wee comment in passing lol

What I don’t get is when some/someone takes offence on behalf of someone else who is not offended

Max i agree with you , thats becoming a society bred into you thing nowadays. How dare he say that , you should be offended. Then the person who originally wasnt offended has to think , should i be offended ? lol.

Google the saying "snowflake generation" it explains a lot about todays society. It also covers this topic of free speech .

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By *awty MaxWoman
over a year ago

Edinburgh

"Just a wee comment in passing lol

What I don’t get is when some/someone takes offence on behalf of someone else who is not offended

Google the saying "snowflake generation" it explains a lot about todays society. It also covers this topic of free speech ."

Will do

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Exactly this.

Free speech is perfectly healthy, you just are no longer tolerated for being an ignorant cunt. Maybe if you feel like it's under attack its more to do with you being used to getting a free pass for being a prick.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

At the end of the day we can say what we want and others can judge us on it, in my opinion peoples PCness can change from person to person or group to group depending on which way they are inclined.

We are all mere pawns in the big propaganda machine and dark overlords of the Rothschilds.

Let’s look look at the more important issues of chemtrails which are destroying us day by day!!!

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