FabSwingers.com forum: EU Leave/remain

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

The UK faces a "triple whammy of woe" - including footing an extra £2.4bn bill from Brussels - if it remains part of the EU

The UK will face a bigger bill because of budget increases in Brussels, future eurozone bailouts, and a "£20bn black hole" in the EU finances

the UK will be "forced to hand over even more money" if voters opt to stay in the EU in the 23 June referendum

so? should we stay or should we Go?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Leave leave leave

We give too much away to the Eu

Over 250 million every week

Look after your own before you look after others

My Moto

Please vote leave

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By *rand Central CoupleCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow

"Leave leave leave

We give too much away to the Eu

Over 250 million every week

Look after your own before you look after others

My Moto

Ermm... din't let facts get in. the way of your blood oressure being raised by the media.

Please vote leave "

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By *otblondewife hornyMrCouple
over a year ago

Cambuslang

You keep referring to the UK. I'm more interested in Scotland.

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By *wisted and kinkyCouple
over a year ago

Livingston

"You keep referring to the UK. I'm more interested in Scotland."

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"You keep referring to the UK. I'm more interested in Scotland.

I am interested in Scotland as a SNP member and was involved in a lot of work with the Independence campaign, but as much as I am a SNP member, I disagree with the SNP on this issue and I have already placed my Leave vote

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

If we leave the EU, will this have any effect on potential Scottish independence?

Just wondering what other people think?

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By *elnkazCouple
over a year ago

cheshire

"You keep referring to the UK. I'm more interested in Scotland."

Eh after the referendum last year is Scotland not still part of the UK

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"You keep referring to the UK. I'm more interested in Scotland.

Eh after the referendum last year is Scotland not still part of the UK"

Im voting to leave

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By *ndykayMan
over a year ago

Falkirk

I'm leaning towards leave but there is so much crap being bandied around at the moment by both sides I've yet to make my final decision

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By *44bertCouple
over a year ago

Inverness

Anyone who thinks that Johnson, Gove, IDS and Rupert Murdoch and George Galloway have our best interests at heart needs their head read.

And yeah, Cameron and Osborne are equally crooked, but that side also have pretty much every business leader, scientist and economist in the world on it.

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By *ripleXrateDWoman
over a year ago

Ayrshire

I'm voting leave xxxx

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It benefits England and fucks us totally. We should get out, push for a referendum and then join again lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If we leave the EU, will this have any effect on potential Scottish independence?

Just wondering what other people think? "

Totally. 10% difference is alot of people but I reckon it would swing it the other way personally x

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By *oody2shoesWoman
over a year ago

dunbartonshire

Im voting to leave

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I really don't agree with you all and now I'm worried Haha

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'll be really interested to see what you all think as I am totally undecided. The yes/no all tell you what they think you should know (sounds familiar huh) but what IS the truth of the matter?? I was thinking no but a friend of mine said it would have a massive effect on business's who would need to renegotiate contracts to conduct business in Europe and also on our law which has a lot of Brussels made rulings...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It benefits England and fucks us totally. We should get out, push for a referendum and then join again lol

We voted no the last time do we really need to go through all that rubbish again

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By *ola cubesMan
over a year ago

coatbridge

"If we leave the EU, will this have any effect on potential Scottish independence?

Just wondering what other people think? "
everything political will have an effect on scottish independance.

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By *helma_richardsCouple
over a year ago

edinburgh

Can't we all just get along ?

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By *ndykayMan
over a year ago

Falkirk

Ok, so if we leave, will we become trading partners like we were when it was the old EEC?

But without the extra laws and costs that are associated with the EU?

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By *awty MaxWoman
over a year ago

Edinburgh

Well, the next few weeks are defo going to be in teresting...

Do I have to apply for my British passpo rt yet??? lol

The li ttle info I have read regarding EU citizens living in t he UK and British citizen living in the EU is a bit conflicting or wri tten to make people panick.

Don't know if anyone has r ead more on this.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It benefits England and fucks us totally. We should get out, push for a referendum and then join again lol

How so? Sounds like you've been listening to Nat propoganda.

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By *hickensCouple
over a year ago

Inverness-ish

Wasn't (if) the UK leaving the EU not one of the 'triggers' for another indy ref?

That being the case shouldn't every SNP member be voting leave?

Anyway, here we are again, two sides stating unknown facts and stats.

I'm STILL an undecided but inclining towards leave, well for today at least, that may change tomorrow, lol.

Money, house prices, jobs, industry, will all be effected, that's a certainty, it's just no one actually knows if they will be good or bad effects.

Conclusion, I may still be stood at the ballot box with a coin... Heads or Tails?

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By *ola cubesMan
over a year ago

coatbridge

Not intrest in anything to do with the eu to be perfectly honest imo its done us no good and just created problems we need to be in charge of our own country and not ask the permission of others if we can do anything

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By *44bertCouple
over a year ago

Inverness

"Not intrest in anything to do with the eu to be perfectly honest imo its done us no good and just created problems we need to be in charge of our own country and not ask the permission of others if we can do anything"

That would be a good point if it wasn't factually completely wrong.

The EU provides countless things. Not least protection for Unions and Human Rights and ensuring things like clean air acts.

Oh and a 40 hr working week. And Holidays. And paid maternity leave.

I'm not for one minute saying it's prefect, but I for one do not want to leave things like workers rights in the hands of people like Michael fucking Gove and Boris Johnson.

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By *ola cubesMan
over a year ago

coatbridge

Sorry we can make those policys ourselves the eu has imo caused nothing but strife ffs a cucumber has to conform to the eu

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By *44bertCouple
over a year ago

Inverness

"Sorry we can make those policys ourselves the eu has imo caused nothing but strife ffs a cucumber has to conform to the eu "

We could yes, but do you honestly think the Tories would?

As for the silly cucumber and straight banana stories, they are lies. They came from reports written by an EU correspondent who was sacked by his newspaper when his lies were uncovered.

His name?

Why it was Boris Johnson.

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By *illnatMan
over a year ago

wherever i need to be

Have a look at the The Wee BlEU Book For #EURef FACTS.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Sorry we can make those policys ourselves the eu has imo caused nothing but strife ffs a cucumber has to conform to the eu "

No, cucumbers dont need to conform to the EU.

There used to be guidelines for the categorising of them according to size and quality, but those guidelines are no longer in use.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ok, so if we leave, will we become trading partners like we were when it was the old EEC?

But without the extra laws and costs that are associated with the EU?

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By *ola cubesMan
over a year ago

coatbridge

[Removed by poster at 06/06/16 18:25:06]

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By *ola cubesMan
over a year ago

coatbridge

"Ok, so if we leave, will we become trading partners like we were when it was the old EEC?

But without the extra laws and costs that are associated with the EU?

Not quite, we would need to negotiate a deal similair to Norway or Switzerland, which would mean still forking over billions each year and accepting most EU laws,rules and regs. However we would not get a seat at the table when the laws, rules and regs are being decided."
that would be down to us negotiating we wouldnt have to accept anything the eu say. also it wouldnt happen ocernight there is a cooling period of two yrs to get these issues settled. Everything would hinge on what was negotiated

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By *ndykayMan
over a year ago

Falkirk

"Ok, so if we leave, will we become trading partners like we were when it was the old EEC?

But without the extra laws and costs that are associated with the EU?

See, that's what I don't get. Why do they still pay in? We didn't before the EEC became the EU. So why should we now?

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By *ndykayMan
over a year ago

Falkirk

I like the idea of the old European Economic Community where we can all trade with each other.

But I'm not in favour of a United States of Europe.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ok, so if we leave, will we become trading partners like we were when it was the old EEC?

But without the extra laws and costs that are associated with the EU?

See, that's what I don't get. Why do they still pay in? We didn't before the EEC became the EU. So why should we now? "

Their baw, their rules basicly.

If we want the advantages of being part of their trading block, we would need to accept it (assuming we vote to leave).

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The UK faces a "triple whammy of woe" - including footing an extra £2.4bn bill from Brussels - if it remains part of the EU

The UK will face a bigger bill because of budget increases in Brussels, future eurozone bailouts, and a "£20bn black hole" in the EU finances

the UK will be "forced to hand over even more money" if voters opt to stay in the EU in the 23 June referendum

so? should we stay or should we Go?

Haven't you already posted this?

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By *nvercoupleCouple
over a year ago

Inverness

If we leave then the housing market will crash due to eu citizens being kicked out, which will trigger another economic crisis.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If we leave then the housing market will crash due to eu citizens being kicked out, which will trigger another economic crisis."

Or, there could be a boom, due to all the expats spread around the EU being told to f' off back where they came from

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I've no idea why people panic so much about whether we could survive independence or not. We have been a trading nation for hundreds of years. We are good at it, hence being the fifth largest economy in the world. The amount of money that is sent to Brussels is staggering yet for very little return. We are shackled by MEPs and what they dictate to us. The EU are post June 23rd activating the EMS that dictated 700 billion euros are to be paid to Brussels each year by member nations with no accounting no appeals and each member state has to pay within 7 days of the demand being made. This sum can be increased as the EU see fit.

Our armed forces will be merged. Right to free passage for EU citizens is already active.

Turkey will join the EU no doubt about that.

For me with no hesitation I want out.

Our system is collapsing as we all know. If you think things are bad now just wait till after the 23rd when and if the UK votes to remain how horrendous it will be.

Vote Out

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By *andACouple
over a year ago

glasgow

It's difficult to tell the real impact it will have and both sides aren't exactly helping. The EU is a huge, corrupt, bureaucratic shambles so it would be good to be free of it. On the other hand though it does seem as though there could be a fairly big impact on the economy if we leave.

I don't know if we'll even vote to be honest.

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By *lgarsMan
over a year ago

Aberdeen

The Eu citizens already residing in the Uk have been informed that they will be able to carry on living in the Uk, i am voting leave.

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By *ary_ArgyllMan
over a year ago

Argyll

Both sides are spouting rubbish - no-one knows what will happen if we vote to leave, we sort of know a bit more what happens if we vote to stay.

By the way all those billions we supposedly give to Brussels equate to £54 a year each - that is hardly going to save the NHS.

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By *earded blossomCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow

If us voting made a actual difference then we wouldn't be allowed to vote, personally think all voting is rigged but if it did make a difference then I'd say leave the EU, get our own country back on its feet before we start looking over the big pond. Get back out farming communities again, plenty of ways to generate the lost EU income without worrying about the scaremongering

John

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By *at69driveMan
over a year ago

Hertford

"Sorry we can make those policys ourselves the eu has imo caused nothing but strife ffs a cucumber has to conform to the eu

We could yes, but do you honestly think the Tories would?

As for the silly cucumber and straight banana stories, they are lies. They came from reports written by an EU correspondent who was sacked by his newspaper when his lies were uncovered.

His name?

Why it was Boris Johnson. "
I thought that the Conservative party polled more seats that any other party at the last general election.

They must be doing most things rigbt , otherwise they would not have been voted into office .

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Sorry we can make those policys ourselves the eu has imo caused nothing but strife ffs a cucumber has to conform to the eu

We could yes, but do you honestly think the Tories would?

As for the silly cucumber and straight banana stories, they are lies. They came from reports written by an EU correspondent who was sacked by his newspaper when his lies were uncovered.

His name?

Why it was Boris Johnson. I thought that the Conservative party polled more seats that any other party at the last general election.

They must be doing most things rigbt , otherwise they would not have been voted into office ."

Yeah getting in bed with Rupert Murdoch and arranging a media blitz of labour, then pushing really hard against Ed Milliband who wasn't really cut for labour leader.

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By *pinCouple
over a year ago

edinburgh

"Sorry we can make those policys ourselves the eu has imo caused nothing but strife ffs a cucumber has to conform to the eu

We could yes, but do you honestly think the Tories would?

As for the silly cucumber and straight banana stories, they are lies. They came from reports written by an EU correspondent who was sacked by his newspaper when his lies were uncovered.

His name?

Why it was Boris Johnson. I thought that the Conservative party polled more seats that any other party at the last general election.

They must be doing most things rigbt , otherwise they would not have been voted into office .

Yeah getting in bed with Rupert Murdoch and arranging a media blitz of labour, then pushing really hard against Ed Milliband who wasn't really cut for labour leader."

The Tories lied very well

If you check EU laws that are enforced over the uk they aren't ridiculous as the Brexit folk make out. Although they did let in member states when they shouldn't have and when a uk law contradicts a EU law, the EU law prevails.

So just have to ponder that abit more

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I just find it ironic that the people who voted no in the Indyref are voting yes to Brexot and quoting from the same SNP propaganda they ridiculed in 2014

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It seems to me the Spin Doctors have us in turmoil... the truth is drowned in high politics and economic dynamics that have very little to do with everyday lives but everything to do with the super rich and powerful becoming even more so.

Leaning to the No camp at present.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Scotland and the U.K. may take a hit financially upon leaving the eu but I've always thought it was more about whether we remain an independent sovereign country or be subordinate to a supra entity of highly dubious democratic ways.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Scotland and the U.K. may take a hit financially upon leaving the eu but I've always thought it was more about whether we remain an independent sovereign country or be subordinate to a supra entity of highly dubious democratic ways.

The highly dubious is highly likely and highly paid too

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Interesting read and views, I was interested in the Scottish view as the SNP think whole heartily that all their members will follow like sheep and vote to remain

as much as I fought for independence, I will still be voting to leave (sorry I already have voted to leave - postal vote)

but good to hear others genuine views whether stay or leave

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Forget the high politics of this as ALL politicians lie.

Probably over simplistic but the nearest analogy I can think of

You can't change or affect the rules of a club you're not a member of, but, as you want to use the club they'll charge whatever visitors fees and apply whatever visitor rules they like.

Isn't it better to be a member working to get the rules to where you'd like them to be?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Forget the high politics of this as ALL politicians lie.

Probably over simplistic but the nearest analogy I can think of

You can't change or affect the rules of a club you're not a member of, but, as you want to use the club they'll charge whatever visitors fees and apply whatever visitor rules they like.

Isn't it better to be a member working to get the rules to where you'd like them to be?"

you talking about golf? and the female members vote

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By *ola cubesMan
over a year ago

coatbridge

"Forget the high politics of this as ALL politicians lie.

Probably over simplistic but the nearest analogy I can think of

You can't change or affect the rules of a club you're not a member of, but, as you want to use the club they'll charge whatever visitors fees and apply whatever visitor rules they like.

Isn't it better to be a member working to get the rules to where you'd like them to be?"
conversely you could think the clubs full of w***kers and want no part of it

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I quite like that we have the stability of European trade agreements and have the security of the EU when it comes to big corporations having bases in the UK for that reason. If we leave they leave. And since there is no such thing as british industry anymore then what is going to hold our economy up?

Also, I'm not racist/ignorant/stupid enough to actually think that immigration is a drain on the economy.

The EU is only even considered in 12% of our laws. Sure, they dictate the silly little things like workers rights and having to have a bell on a bike, but who really cares about equal pay for women and such like?

It's not like a general election, when things go pear shaped then we can't just go cap in hand and ask to come back.

It makes me laugh how so many voted to escape Westminster in 2014, but so few want to keep the last thing safeguarding us from them.

Basically I'm voting remain because I'm not stupid.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Basically I'm voting remain because I'm not stupid. "

So are you saying that us who think the UK can prosper on our own and wish to leave ARE stupid (by your comment phrase above)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Basically I'm voting remain because I'm not stupid.

So are you saying that us who think the UK can prosper on our own and wish to leave ARE stupid (by your comment phrase above)

If you think the UK can prosper, flourish, and become anything the even resembles 'Socially Just', then yes. That's exactly what I'm saying.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Basically I'm voting remain because I'm not stupid.

So are you saying that us who think the UK can prosper on our own and wish to leave ARE stupid (by your comment phrase above)

If you think the UK can prosper, flourish, and become anything the even resembles 'Socially Just', then yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. "

then you lack education & knowledge, or perhaps you have far too much of both that you lack common sense

have a nice day now; (if you can put up with all us fools that is)

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Basically I'm voting remain because I'm not stupid.

So are you saying that us who think the UK can prosper on our own and wish to leave ARE stupid (by your comment phrase above)

If you think the UK can prosper, flourish, and become anything the even resembles 'Socially Just', then yes. That's exactly what I'm saying.

then you lack education & knowledge, or perhaps you have far too much of both that you lack common sense

have a nice day now; (if you can put up with all us fools that is)

I have knowledge and common sense... I also have empathy.

Should I apologise for not fitting in with the government's capitalist system?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Basically I'm voting remain because I'm not stupid.

So are you saying that us who think the UK can prosper on our own and wish to leave ARE stupid (by your comment phrase above)

If you think the UK can prosper, flourish, and become anything the even resembles 'Socially Just', then yes. That's exactly what I'm saying.

then you lack education & knowledge, or perhaps you have far too much of both that you lack common sense

have a nice day now; (if you can put up with all us fools that is)

I have knowledge and common sense... I also have empathy.

Should I apologise for not fitting in with the government's capitalist system?

No but you should appologise to everyone you consider and call stupid just because they share a different view from you, that is, if you are man enough

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I just find it ironic that the people who voted no in the Indyref are voting yes to Brexot and quoting from the same SNP propaganda they ridiculed in 2014 "

Theres a lot of it around

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Basically I'm voting remain because I'm not stupid.

So are you saying that us who think the UK can prosper on our own and wish to leave ARE stupid (by your comment phrase above)

If you think the UK can prosper, flourish, and become anything the even resembles 'Socially Just', then yes. That's exactly what I'm saying.

then you lack education & knowledge, or perhaps you have far too much of both that you lack common sense

have a nice day now; (if you can put up with all us fools that is)

I have knowledge and common sense... I also have empathy.

Should I apologise for not fitting in with the government's capitalist system?

No but you should appologise to everyone you consider and call stupid just because they share a different view from you, that is, if you are man enough

I wasn't calling everyone stupid for voting to leave... just the vast majority for wanting to leave given their reasoning for it.

And apologising for having an opinion wouldn't make me any more of a man than I already am.

Besides, the only people who could be offended by me calling them stupid are stupid people, and if they're stupid then me calling them stupid shouldn't offend them as it's fact.

Look at the people trying to convince us to vote leave, then look at the people telling us to remain... now ask yourself which side is the more sensible side.

If you can make a sensible argument for wanted to leave then maybe you'll convince me.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

FARMING

Should wethink that British Agriculture could survive outside the EU? Yes, of course we should.

After all, this is the country that produced Jethro Tull, the NORFOLK four course rotation, James Watt, Henry Ferguson and of course Guy Smith! I would have struggled to have made this case thirty years ago, cocooned as we were then by very high intervention prices for unlimited quantities of many commodities, high tariffs to keep out imports and export restitutions to dump our surpluses overseas. All of this combined with a very light regulatory touch.

If you chat to farmers on a shooting trailer or a pub about leaving the EU there is always one who will moan, “but I can’t make a profit without my Single Farm Payment” and his head will go straight into the sand. However, that man is making an assumption. He is assuming that the EU is the only institution in the world that supports agriculture. He is wrong, the USA have their Counter Cyclical Program, Canada has its Crop Price Insurance Scheme, even Japan has The Basic Law combined with the Basic Plan. Historically, this country has been through the mill on the subject of agricultural support.

We know that when it was overdone we were obliged to repeal the “Corn Laws” and later when we let Agriculture ‘go hang’ in the 1940s, people did not have enough to eat. We learned from that experience, and from the end of the war, right up until the day we joined the CAP, we supported agriculture. Looking forward, the only political party wanting to take us out of the EU, (it is called UKIP by the way!] states categorically in its manifesto that it will support agriculture. Any Government of an independent Britain will need to consider the issue of food security. As a crowded island of 62 million people can we really rely on foreigners to produce all of our food, just because it might be slightly cheaper?

There are two huge risks. One is a dramatic loss of supply after a few years due to, say, a drought in the Southern hemisphere. The other is the real risk of terrorism with all of this food arriving through a handful of deep water ports and Heathrow. What a gift to a terrorist. It only needs one such incident, the threat of others and our ‘just in time’ food supply is disrupted. Five consecutively missed meals results in anarchy. I just cannot see our government taking the risk. Some taxpayers money to support a reliable production base here, is the less bad option.

The CAP has changed considerably over the years, which is probably why we are talking about this now. The proportion of the EU budget allocated to agriculture has significantly dropped and in the reform we are discussing at the moment it is scheduled to keep dropping. The new countries joining, Croatia, Macedonia, Ukraine and Turkey, will all be net recipients of the EU Budget meaning that your Single Farm Payment will be further reduced. This expansion to the South and East has two further dynamics.

There is the relentless dilution of our influence in the EU and we are getting to a new place culturally. A place where institutionalised corruption and non-compliance is a fact of life; and if you don’t believe me, why are there still at least 50 million birds in battery cages, as I speak ? They are twiddling with the physical application as well. Set-aside is returning and you will be obliged to grow crops that you wouldn’t normally grow. Both these measures will reduce your profits. Some may now say, “OK fair enough, but what about selling malting barley and lamb to the EU when we are no longer part of it?”. Do not worry, we run a massive trade deficit with the EU. We buy far more from it than we sell to it. For example 17.7% of all German exports to the EU come here. The figure for France is over 11%. They are not going to mess with us, they need our market. We are in a strong position to negotiate very good trade terms with them, and this is not creating a precedent. There are at least fifty countries in the world with their own preferential trade agreements with the EU, some of them buying very little from it.

Meanwhile we have to sit on our hands whilst the EU conducts a bilateral trade agreement on our behalf with Mercosur, that will be to the great detriment of our beef industry. It is less well known that Japan is one of the countries that DOESN’T have a special trade deal with the EU, but it is a country from which we buy a great deal. We could and should have a deal with them whereby in return for our purchases of manufactured goods they buy some wheat and beans from us. You never know, they may grow a bit taller as a result!

In my opinion there was a scandal in operation here a few years ago. Sheep farmers and graziers were paying competitive rents for MOD airfields, etc, but the MOD appeared to refuse point blank to purchase their sheepmeat supplies for the troops and civilian employees from the home market. They were virtually forced into this position by Pascal Lamy the EU Trade Commissioner. He went to South America and said ” I can guarantee that the UK Government will buy your sheepmeat, if you in turn buy your Fiat cars from Spain and Italy”. So Spain and Italy win, we lose, what’s new in the EU?

No discussion on EU agriculture is complete without reference to regulation. We are drowned in it. For example: the Nitrates Directive. We used to have our own maximum level of 100 milligrams per litre of water. There were no health scares at this level. When the EU took over they halved the level to 50. The difference is critical. The NFU commissioned a study to discover what measures we would need to take to remain under 50. The answer came back that half of East Anglia would need to be left as ungrazed set-aside plus a fair slice of the East Midlands.

Then we have this huge con trick about man-made global warming, driven by computer models. These same computer models and experts, made a complete hash of forecasting our winter weather three years running. Was I the only farmer last year to lose a third of his sugar beet crop, frozen solid into the ground by global warming? Am I the only farmer who needs Carbon Dioxide to make his crops grow? But in the EU this scam is a religion. What a wonderful excuse to boss us all about. You will have to play your part. Arable farmers must divert the exhaust of their tractors over the cab and into the soil via the tines of trailed implements. Think of the power this will consume. Think of the seedbeds it will spoil.

Livestock farmers: your sheep and cattle are producing too much methane. You must feed them less grass, hay and silage. And more cereals and concentrates! The madness doesn’t end here. This set-aside that is returning is nothing to do with controlling supply. It is a “climate change” measure. The logic is that if 7% of the EU is not farmed properly, then the world’s weather will improve! We have the Working Time Directive. When this is enforced properly it will be hugely inconvenient for farmers and employees alike. There is the Physical Agents Directive. It hasn’t been buried, only parked. When last seen it said that farmers could only sit on a tractor seat for three hours a day!

The Pesticides Directive is removing pesticides from our shelves, making it difficult or impossible to grow certain minority crops that will now need to be imported. Legislation going through the European Parliament at the moment on very small tractors includes 37 closely typed pages of script on how to test their roll bars. We can thrive without that! Everyday, at least 1000 sheep, fallen stock are transported up to 100 miles to be roasted at 900 degrees centigrade. You talk about Global Warming! There are millions of acres on which these animals could be safely buried.

We used to have a fishing industry in this country, until it was destroyed by the EU. Surplus fish were processed into fishmeal, a very useful protein source for our livestock. The EU took over and now this surplus has to be dumped, dead, at the bottom of the sea. An independent Britain could turn this round. All over the world farmers are exporting food and feedstuffs to the EU, tariff free. They do not have to adhere to these rules, so WHY SHOULD WE?

Why Mr GNB?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

The Exciting New World Outside the European Union,

With every new EU regulation and with every extra pound paid into the E U’s coffers, Britain’s EU membership is an increasingly bad deal. I do not know of any cost-benefit study that shows EU membership actually benefits Britain. On the contrary, they vie with each other to show how costly, and increasingly costly, membership is. The country needs a new relationship with the EU.

A free trade relationship for Britain and the EU

When we set up Global Vision in 2007, we focused on the economic case for an EFTA/Swiss-style relationship with the EU based on trade and mutually beneficial co-operation. We understand that trade with the EU countries is important to Britain but, under a free trade relationship with the EU, this would continue. There is not a shred of evidence to show that trade would be blocked – just look at Germany’s trade surplus with us.

But we do not need the single Market, which is still widely misunderstood in this country as a free trade area. It is not a free trade area. It is a highly regulated market based on the notion of “harmonization”. And the costs of the Single Market’s regulations far outweigh the benefits. We do not need the EU’s Custom’s Union either, an idea as dated as drainpipe trousers and beehive hairstyles. Indeed we would be better off outside the Custom’s Union. We would then be free to choose the countries we wanted to negotiate special trade deals with, rather than rely on Brussels to decide for us.

This negotiating freedom is a huge potential boon for this country. It is too often overlooked. Much is, rightly, made of the savings we would make if we left the EU. But too little is made of the potential prizes if were free to negotiate our own trade deals. Yet these potential prizes are the really exciting aspect of leaving the EU in the rapidly changing 21st-century global economy, where Europe will inevitably shrink in relative importance. They could transform the economic prospects of this country.

Free to trade: the importance of the Commonwealth

The US, which is UK’s largest trading partner by a substantial margin, and the biggest investor in the UK by a mile, would be an obvious candidate. But so would be the Commonwealth nations whose economic potential is quite special, not least of all because of the Indian economy, which is clocking up annual growth rates of 7-8 per cent. The Indian Diaspora, well represented here in the UK, adds to the excitement of the Commonwealth’s economic prospects and its relevance to Britain.

And the Commonwealth is open for trade and economic cooperation. Commonwealth leaders issued the historic ‘Edinburgh Communique’, following a Commonwealth heads of government meeting (CHOGM), in 1997. It was a masterly and inspired document that outlined the objectives of the Commonwealth relating to increased trade and investment opportunities and also, crucially, to development issues.

The individual Commonwealth nations were, of course, left to decide which policies they should implement in order to achieve the Edinburgh objectives. The Commonwealth Business Council, which should be far better known in Britain than it is, was established in 1997 following the meeting.

The contrast between the Edinburgh Communiques flexible, bottom-up approach and the top-down, inflexible and heavily regulated directive-driven processes of the EU, a regional bloc in relative decline, could not be starker.

The Commonwealth nations, taken together are an economic colossus comprising some 15 per cent of world GDP, 54 member states and two billion citizens. They will inevitably become more powerful. The Commonwealth spans five continents and contains developed, emerging and developing economies. The Commonwealth in it’s richness and diversity mirrors today’s global economy in a way that the EU simply cannot start to aspire to. It is the future, not a curious relic of empire.

Moreover, other Commonwealth countries see this when we do not, blinded as we are by our masochistic attachment to the EU and its Single Market. The attitude of Canada for example, is altogether more enlightened. “Commonwealth Advantage” is a go-ahead Canadian organisation with the objectives of creating new trade opportunities and strengthening ties with other Commonwealth nations. Commonwealth advantage sees the Commonwealth as a true economic bloc, where the commonalities of language, law, accounting systems and business regulations can present a 15 per cent cost advantage over dealing with countries that are outside the Commonwealth.

And Kamal Nath, India’s Road Transport Minister and former Industry Minister, was quoted recently saying: “The Commonwealth is the ideal platform for business and trade… I hope that India’s ties with the Commonwealth will move from strength to strength, and that the new paradigm will only mean greater warmth, greater cooperation.” The “new paradigm are his words, not mine.

The framework for Britain to raise its game in the Commonwealth is already in place. The institutions exist. Our Commonwealth partners are very willing partners. But we must be free of the EU’s restraints, bureaucratic, legalistic and psychological, if we are to make best of the opportunities open to us. Making the best of these opportunities would benefit everyone in the Commonwealth

Don't you agree Mr GNB?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

FISHING

British fishing policy is determined by the political imperative of European integration.

The objective is to create an EU fishing fleet catching EU fish in EU waters under an EU permit system controlled from Brussels.

That is the price the British fishing industry has to pay as its contribution towards the realisation of European political union, and nothing – not even the conservation of fish stocks – must be allowed to stand in the way of achieving that objective.

Today we are confronted with the consequent catastrophe now facing our fishermen, as they are forced off what should be their own waters in favour of an increasingly predatory armada of Spanish and other foreign vessels.

The British fishing industry is therefore being intentionally and systematically destroyed by the command of Brussels. To conceal the real issue and say that this is for conservation is a contemptible lie. But lies are the rule rather than the exception when dealing with Brussels on this issue, and with successive British governments for that matter.

In the House of Commons on 17th December 1997 Christopher Gill, Conservative Member of Parliament for Ludlow, said: “For 25 years, the House of Commons and the people of Britain, not least the fishermen, have been fed a diet of half-truths, deceptions and downright lies”. He was absolutely right.

British fishermen have since 1983 been ordered by this unelected bureaucracy to dump hundreds of thousands of tons of prime quality fish all dead back into the sea in the name of conservation, to pollute the fishing grounds in almost every area where our vessels operate.

That is a transgression against the highest moral law, since thousands, yes, millions die of starvation only a few hours flight from Britain’s shores.

The supporters of this pernicious plot in desperation to conceal their intentions, parrot the sickening nonsense that there are too many fishermen chasing too few fish. This is another lie, and nothing more than a cynical front to justify drastic reductions in the British fleet to create room for the free access of other Member States fishermen to the only commodity in the European Union regarded as a common resource.

Furthermore what they don’t tell us is the fact that 50% of the British share of European Union quota allocated in 1983 is now in the hands of Dutch and Spanish flag ships. So how can there be too many British fishing vessels chasing too few fish within the British sector of Community waters which contains three-quarters of the fish within “EU waters”.

In the month of March this year the European Commission enforced what they called “The cod recovery plan”. This plan involved the closure of 40,000 square miles of prime fishing grounds in the North Sea for twelve weeks. The alleged purpose of this closure was to allow the cod to spawn uninterruptedly. But at the same time they quietly introduced legislation which allowed Danish fishermen to fish within the closed area providing they used a mesh size of less than 16mm.

Surely no sensible Fisheries Management System, genuinely concerned for the sustainability of fish stocks, would legislate for the wholesale slaughter of the major food supply upon which those stocks depend. But this is what has been happening for years, and continues to happen in the industrial fishery for sand-eels. The Total Allocated Catch has been set year after year at over 1 million tonnes despite the fact that fishermen, due to the scarcity of sand eels, have only been able to catch half that amount.

So is there an ulterior motive? It certainly looks like it.

The Commission is well aware of the fact that if there is not an adequate food supply within the British sector, the fish will consume their own young and then move into other waters where they can find sustenance in abundance.

Can it really be by accident that so many things, some that I haven’t mentioned, which are bound to destroy fish stocks are happening by the command of “Brussels” at the same time?

Is it not more likely that they are part of a deliberate policy of inducing our fishermen to be the unwitting agents of their own extermination? So that when fish stocks again recover in the North Sea, as they surely will, there will be very few inconvenient British fishermen left to mar the creation of a single EU fleet on the principle of non-discrimination, with no increase in fishing effort, as Brussels so obviously intends.

At the Scottish Labour Party Conference on Friday 6th March 1998, the following question was put to the then Foreign Secretary Robin Cook: “Is it in your view possible to renegotiate the CFP to give Scotland’s fishing fleet priority in our own waters, so the fishermen can make a living, which many now are not doing, or is it too late to stop the North Sea turning into a Euro-lake?”

Mr Cook replied: “In the short run it will not be possible to renegotiate the European Common Fisheries Policy, and when it comes, the priority will be to conserve dwindling fish stocks”.

He continued: “The immense tragedy is that the Tories took Britain into Europe in 1972 without getting British fishermen as good a deal as Mrs Thatcher later gave to the Spanish fleet. The Tories then missed their last chance to renegotiate the policy before the millennium. British fishing grounds are due to become a ‘common resource’ for fleets from all over Europe under the existing policy.”

Without going into the rights and wrongs of these statements, what he didn’t say was that on 1 January 1977 the Fishery Limits Act came into force, while the Labour government was in power. The Act extended British fishery limits from the baselines of the territorial sea out to 200 miles or to the median line. And the Labour government immediately surrendered the jurisdiction of these waters – which were subsequently formalised into International Law by the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea as the property of the British people – into the hands of this undemocratic bureaucracy in Brussels.

Since no Parliament can bind its successor, both political Parties are equally to blame for this terrible shambles and sorry mess our industry finds itself in at the present time. But there is no need for us to remain under such groveling humiliating servitude, since under the democratic principles of our historic Constitution we can end the shameful surrender of our fishing grounds, our fishing rights and fish stocks, at any time of our choosing.

Thirty years of senseless destruction is enough.

Britain’s fish stocks are our responsibility. It is our duty to protect them and the communities dependent upon them.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

IMMIGRATION

Britain has given away control of immigration within the EU to the EU, and retains the power only to control non-EU immigration. This has led to huge disparities where Commonwealth citizens with family in Britain struggle to obtain visas whilst EU citizens with little link with the UK can automatically work here. It has also contributed to the largest ever inflows into the UK in our history, with the UK population rising by 4 million from 1997, which is only slightly less than the entire population of (Southern) Ireland moving to the UK in that timescale, and that figure is the net figure, which does not take into account the economic, social and cultural impacts of a mass outflow of British citizens to settle abroad. The British population used to be stable of about 58 million, and it is uncontrolled immigration that has driven the population up rapidly to the current 62 million (ONS figures).

Leaving the EU will empower Britain to adopt the more balanced and more tightly controlled immigration policy, similar to the Australian visa-based system. This visa system could set down the number of visas available according to UK needs and the ability of public services, housing and infrastructure on a very crowded island to cope. It is likely that certain EU nation states will enjoy visa waiver schemes (in reality there is less need for visas with nations with comparative economic profiles such as France, Germany and Holland, the biggest inflows have been from former Communist states).

In the EU, all the EU citizens have the right to move to the UK regardless of skill needs. This has resulted in the equivalent of a new city the size of York arriving every year. With easier travel for North African countries and the prospect of Turkey’s 79 million citizens being given the right to work in the EU, the scale of uncontrolled immigration is likely to worsen considerably unless the UK withdraws rapidly. Better controls over criminal elements coming into the UK, difficult under the EU’s open door approach, can be enhanced too.

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By *wiftieeMan
over a year ago

near Glasgow

The EU is a huge failure, simple.

We should recognise the great opportunity we've been given, to leave.

All right-thinking people should grasp the opportunity and vote.................LEAVE.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

JOBS

3 Miillion Jobs?

It has been happening for the past twelve years and continues to slip off the tongues of European Union supporters and _pin doctors in newspaper, on television and during broadcast interviews, “3 million jobs depend upon the EU” whilst avoiding, of course, providing evidence.

A national newspaper dated 19th February 2000 and headed “Blow to Blair over ‘silly’ EU job scare” reported that Britain in Europe, the campaign to scrap the pound, suffered a humiliating setback after one of the country’s most senior economists accused it of misrepresenting his research to run “absurd” scare stories about the dangers of the UK leaving the EU. Mr Martin Weale director of the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, said pro-euro supporters had misused his report to make “plain silly” claims about the impact of British withdrawal. Mr Weale blamed Britain in Europe for leaked newspaper accounts of his research which suggested that 8 milliwas jobs were at risk if Britain pulled out of the EU. The survey commissioned by BiE actually suggested that 2.7 million jobs were directly related to trade with the EU and another 500,000 were indirectly linked. However it added that it was “unlikely” that many of these jobs would be lost permanently even if Britain left the EU. It added that that there is no reason why being outside the EU should necessarily involve mass unemployment. Mr Weale reportedly said “It’s pure Goebbels. In many years of academic research I cannot recall such a wilful distortion of the facts” and went on “Nobody could plausibly believe the figures. As the experience of the 1960s indicates, there is no reason why being outside the EU should necessarily involve mass unemployment”

Tony Blair was due at that time to endorse “Out of Europe, Out of Work” with a poster campaign drawing upon the research. It also came as Keith Vaz, minister for Europe at that time threw his full weight behind the BiE campaign. In an interview with the Daily Telegraph he was reported as claiming that 3.5 million jobs in this country depended directly on membership of the EU. “Out of Europe is out of a job” he is reported to have said.

That was 12 years ago. One of the worst repetitions of this distorted claim came on 31st October from the deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg in an interview of BBC Radio Four “Today” programme on 31st October 2011 where he said “There are three million of our fellow citizens, men and women in this country whose jobs rely directly on our participation and role and place in what is after all is the world’s largest borderless single market………isolation costs jobs, cuts growth, cuts peoples livelihood”. In claiming that 3 million UK citizens rely solely on the UK’s current participation in the EU, listeners to the broadcast reasonably assume from this line of argument that these jobs would be lost if Britain were to withdraw from the EU.

Can we trust this figure? The organisation “Full Fact” found reasons to be cautious. Full Fact thought it strange that current estimates are the same as those made ten years ago (or more)not least because they had seen a significant recession hit in this time. So Full Fact did some further investigation.

The figure dates back to an initial report in 2000 by the South Bank University, which based job estimates on the UK export trade made by the EU, accounting for jobs produced as a direct result, and those produced indirectly by export- generated income. This estimated a total of 3,445,000 jobs in the UK depend on exports to the EU, but failed to produce a net assessment including import trade.

Regardless of whether this is a net figure, any statistics based purely upon trade with the EU do not offer a fair cost-benefit analysis of the impact of EU membership upon the labour market, since the two are not necessarily directly correlated. Free Trade agreements between the EU and non EEC countries exist for some 10 countries in Europe and others elsewhere, including a Fair Trade agreement made with Switzerland in 1972.

A figure which depends entirely upon UK exports with the EU does not necessarily show that UK withdrawal from the EU would dramatically alter this trade in a negative way.

So is Nick Clegg basing his claim -also quoted in 2010 Lib/Dem manifesto- on these dated and more wide ranging analysis? When Full Fact contacted the Lib/Dems to find out where is figure came from they said it had come from an analysis by the Department of Business Innovation and Skills which has been referenced in various Commons debates including one in September 2011 about overseas investment. This analysis was apparently conducted in 2006 and estimated approximately 3.5 million UK jobs were dependent directly or indirectly on the export of goods and services to the EU.

Full Fact contacted the BiS to try to track down this report from which this figure is drawn but the Department were only able to confirm that as far as they were aware there were no reports published with the figure included. They were still trying the find possible analysis which could have been concluded.

As Full Fact has no access to where this figure came from, they could not comment on the accuracy of how it was estimated. It is possible it is also based on the report published in 2000.

What can be said, Is that when the BiS figure if referenced in the Commons, the statistic still only refers to trade with the EU. Once again, this is not a reliable measure of what could be lost if Britain were to withdraw from the EU. However when Full Fact contacted the Deputy Prime Minister’s team at the Cabinet Office, they pointed us towards an entirely different source for this claim: a statistic put forward by the European Commission.

They were however unable to refer to the exact report this corresponded to, instead saying it might be found if quoted in a number of different articles. However this wasn’t as straightforward as they suggested. Full Fact found a BiS report from February 2011, on the UK Government Response to the European Commission Consultation on the Single Market Act, which stated that “the single market also contributed to increased growth of at least 1.85% and the creation of 2.75 million new jobs across the EU since 1992”. This figure is also repeated in various government websites.

This seems to be the only statistics from the EC which is regularly available regarding jobs created as a result of the EU. If this was the statistic to which Mr Clegg referred, which seems likely, he was wildly incorrect to use it in relation to UK jobs specifically, as it is a total created across EU nations.

What is the real figure?

Full Fact contacted the EC to see if they are aware of any UK specific estimate of the number job created as a consequence of EU membership, but they are waiting to hear back.

The most recent report Full Fact could find was conducted by Civitas in 2004. This provided an assessment of all the previous reports and concluded that “the economic impact of British withdrawal from the EU would be marginal –less that 1% of GDP. Putting it another way, these three studies find that, for the UK, the economic benefits of EU membership are at best marginal”.

Conclusion

Given this dearth of reliable information, we are left to choose between a dated estimate of jobs benefitting from EU wide trade, but not necessarily dependent upon EU membership, and an EC estimate of jobs created across Europe, when looking at Mr Clegg’s claim. Neither supports his assertion that 3 million jobs “rely directly” on the EU.

o there you have it. The 3 million jobs scaremongering myth still is being trotted out as recently as Question Time Thursday 18th January 2013 when reference was made to all three main political parties saying that 3 million jobs in the UK depend upon the EU.

Decide who can you trust at the next General Election to vote in favour of a Bill to take Britain out of the EU.

Please don’t allow yourself to be fooled and never forget how Tony Blair was first elected to Parliament in 1983. What did he say to his Sedgefield constituents? “25,000 jobs had been destroyed in County Durham. Courtaulds has closed. Thorns has seen major job losses. Black & Decker has axed workers. Fishburn Coke Works is earmarked for closure. 14 million people in Britain live at or near the official poverty line. He promised if elected “to negotiate a withdrawal from the EEC which has drained our natural resources and destroyed jobs”

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

SOVEREIGNTY

Britain’s membership of the European Union is unconstitutional for several reasons. Firstly it causes her Majesty The Queen to be in breach of her coronation oath in which she promised to govern the peoples of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland “according to their respective laws and customs”.

It also contravenes the Bill of Rights Act 1689 which provided for freedom of speech and debate and that proceedings in Parliament “ought not to be impeached or questioned in court or any place out of Parliament”.

It is in breach of the Act of Settlements 1700 section 4 which states that “the laws of England are birthright of the people”. It also breaches the principal established in the 1932 case of Vauxhall Estates v Liverpool Corporation IKV733 that “no Parliament may bind its successors” as section 2.1 of the European Communities Act 1972 provides that all obligations created by the European Union treaties can be enforced in Britain and without further enactment thereby giving the European Commission the right to create new laws which are binding on the citizens of the United Kingdom without reference to our own Parliament.

Membership of the EU is also in breach of the Magna Carta which provides that “no free man shall be disseised of his liberties of free customs nor will we not pass upon him but by law of the land.”

How the EU works

The European Commission

The unelected European Commission has the monopoly of proposing all EU legislation, which it does in secret. It can also issue “Regulations”, which are automatically binding in all Member States. It is run by a college of 27 commissioners, currently one for each member state. It has 37 branches, or “Directorates General”, each run by a Director General. The Directors General have the real power and can rule for many years. They cannot be removed from office.

The Commission is more a Government than a Commission. The list of Commissioners is decided by qualified majority of the European Council on the basis of the ”suggestions” of national governments, but they are not delegates or representatives. They are appointed for five years. On appointment they swear an oath not to seek or take instructions from any Member Government. Their allegiance is to the EU, not to their own countries. Portfolios are distributed by the Commission President, who is decided by the European Council of Prime Ministers and Presidents on the basis of Qualified Majority Voting.

The Commission is a legislative machine, continually producing new draft directives and regulations which are passed to the Council of Ministers and European Parliament for final decision. Each individual Commissioner seeks to make his or her mark during the five-year period in office by proposing new laws for the portfolio area they cover. Thus a condition for supranational legislation in the EU is that draft laws cannot be proposed by elected representatives. French President Charles De Gaulle described the Commission as “a conclave of technocrats without a country, responsible to nobody”.

The Commission also has quasi-judicial powers. It can adjudicate on competition cases in the single market and impose fines on EU members. Even though parties can appeal to the Court of Justice, the Commission acts as if it were a lower court. It is supported by some 3,000 “secret” working groups, whose members are not publicly known. It is at this level that most Commission decisions are actually made and corporate lobbyists wield their influence.

The Council of Ministers

The Council of Ministers from Member States passes EU legislation, often by majority voting, and again in secret. The UK has 8.4% of the votes. Sometimes it has to consult the European Parliament and has the final say on Commission proposals.

The Council of Ministers is called a Council, but it makes laws just like a Parliament on the basis of the Commission’s proposals. It makes these laws in secret, often in the form of package-deals between its member governments, and it takes some executive decisions. Approximately 85% of EU directives and regulations are agreed privately in some 300 committees of civil servants from the EU Member States which service the Council of Ministers.

Most of what these committees agree on is nodded through without debate at Council meetings. Only some 15% of EU laws are actually discussed or negotiated at that level. Most EU laws are agreed by consensus among Ministers on the Council, but a process of “shadow-voting” takes place all the time whereby Ministers look round to see whether a qualified majority or a blocking minority exists for any proposal. Small countries rarely push matters to a vote if they see that the big countries are agreed on something. The Council of Ministers, the primary EU legislature, is responsible collectively to nobody. It is irremoveable as a group, although individual Ministers may be criticised or removed from office at national level. A committee of legislators, it is an oligarchy in the exact meaning of that word.

The European Council

This is quite distinct from the Council of Ministers, is the quarterly “summit” meeting of the Heads of State and Government, the national Prime Ministers and Presidents. It gives overall political direction to the EU and decides its policy priorities. Unlike the Council of Ministers it does not make EU laws directly, but as the Prime Ministers and Presidents appoint Government Ministers at national level, they can determine indirectly what the Council of Ministers does. Before the EU Constitution was embodied in the Lisbon Treaty, national Prime Ministers and Presidents would meet on an ad hoc basis outside the Treaties.

The Lisbon Treaty completed the constitutionally Federalist structure of the Union by turning the European Council into a formal EU institution whose actions or failures to act are therefore, at least in principle, subject to review by the Court of Justice, although that has not happened to date. The European Council elects its President by qualified majority vote for a term of two and a half years, renewable once. The European Council President thus gives continuity of policy at supranational level for up to five years, while national Prime Ministers and Presidents come and go during that time.

The European Parliament

The European Parliament consists of 785 MEP’s, elected every 5 years, is more a Council than a Parliament. It cannot initiate any EU law, although it can amend draft laws which come to it from the Commission and Council of Ministers so long as the Commission agrees. If the Commission disagrees, all 28 Member States must be in agreement to allow an amendment by the Parliament to be adopted. If the Council and Commission cannot agree on a legislative amendment proposed by the Parliament the Treaty provides a complex “conciliation procedure” to try to get them to agree (Art.294 TFEU). If the Parliament by an absolute majority of its 751 members opposes a draft directive from the Commission, it cannot become law. This rarely happens as the Commission and Parliament, both supranational bodies, tend to work hand in glove vis-à-vis the Council of Ministers representing the Member States. Both Parliament and Commission want ever more supranational legislation, not less.

The Parliament has the final say over the EU budget except for agriculture. If it vetoes new budget proposals, the previous year’s EU budget is repeated. The Lisbon Treaty made Members of the European Parliament, who under the previous treaties were “representatives of the peoples of the States brought together in the Community” into “representatives of the Union’s citizens” (Art.14.2 TEU).

To copy the party structures that one finds in normal parliaments, encourage people to think “European” and weaken national allegiances further, the Commission provides funds to finance cross-national parties in the European Parliament. Most MEPs belong to these cross-national “political families” – Conservatives (European People’s Party), Socialists, Liberals, Greens and so on. Most national citizens across the EU are indifferent to the European Parliament, as is shown by low voter turnout in successive five-yearly elections and the fact that turnout keeps falling each time. Euro-Parliament elections are generally fought on national rather than EU-related issues, with much attention being usually given to MEPs’ lavish pay and perks. The EU’s “citizens” think nationally, not supranationally. In no way do they consider the European Parliament “their” Parliament.

The Economic and Social Committee and the Committee of the Regions.

These must be consulted on various issues laid down in the Treaties and in all cases where the EU institutions think it appropriate. The former consists of representative of business, trade unions, farmers, consumers and professional bodies, the latter of representatives of sub-national authorities, regions, countries, provinces, municipalities and cities. Each committee has 353 members, nominated by the Member States. They play a powerful role in encouraging key domestic lobby groups to look to Brussels rather than their own Member States to influence policy, instilling a supranational mind-set and eroding national loyalties in the process.

Advised by these Committees, the Commission disburses an annual budget of hundreds of millions of euros to endow a host of national lobby-groups and interest groups and encourage them to look to Brussels for funding, by-passing their national governments in the process. Journalists, women’s groups, youth groups, trade unions, pro-EU think-tanks, anti-poverty lobbyists, the disabled, university researchers, environmentalists, regionalists, minority-language advocates and the Christian churches are offered access to Commission funds of one kind or another in this way. Their representatives are dined and wined on expenses-paid trips to Brussels. This amounts in effect to the Commission paying lobbyists to lobby itself to do what it wants to do in the first place, which is to produce policies that seek to move things continually from the national to the supranational level. A wide range of interest groups and lobby-groups are encouraged in this way to subscribe to the Euro-federalist ideology and disseminate it to their members and supporters back home using EU money.

The European Court of Justice (ECJ)

The Commission is the sole enforcer of all EU legislation and decisions, supported when necessary by the European Court of Justice in Luxembourg (ECJ or LCJ). This is not an independent court of law; it is the engine of the “ever closer union of peoples of Europe” required by the EU Treaties. It is financed by the EU, and has the final say on all EU matters, including employment cases. There is no appeal against final verdicts.

The ECJ is not just a court but is a constitution-maker, with powers similar to what some Parliaments have (see below). It is a highly political Court, “a court with a mission”, to use the self-description of one of its judges. That mission is continually to interpret the treaties in such a way as to extend the legal powers of the EU to the utmost. Various judgements of the ECJ have moved the EU in directions which were never envisaged by the people originally drawing up the treaties. The Court follows the continental legal tradition of interpreting laws by reference to the assumed purposes of the legislators or treaty-makers, as gauged from preambles, statements of intention or lists of objectives. This contrasts with the Anglo-Saxon tradition of basing judgements on what laws actually say in the present tense. As an “ever closer union” was the overriding objective of the original Treaty of Rome, this justifies all sorts of supranational legal activism towards that end.

The European Court of First Instance, hears cases before they reach the European Court of Justice. The Court of Auditors, which is also financed out of the EU budget, is supposed to guarantee the proper use of the EU funds to taxpayers. It has been unable to do this for many years. There are no external auditors

all of the above posts are reasons to leave Mr GMB

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

One more reason to leave Mr GMB

TRADE

There are reams of unnecessary red tape in the form of EU laws, such as the Working Time Directive, Agency Workers Directive and related excessive Health & Safety and Employment legislation which bear most heavily on small businesses, the life blood of jobs and the economy, which as cost the British economy many more jobs. Major plants producing steel, aluminum, chemicals and electrical power are being hamstrung by the implementation of excessive and unrealistic emissions targets.

Britain is prevented by the EU State Aid provisions from for example, spending British tax payers money saving a car industry (the EU prevented the UK saving Rover) or more post offices or the Royal Mail or helping a bank to survive. Unelected Commissioners have the power to veto such decisions. EU procurement rules require large contracts to be advertised EU journal which enables foreign contractors to bid for and win contracts that could have gone to British companies thereby reducing our Corporation Tax receipts and increasing our numbers of unemployed.

The ‘Golden Shares’ in major privatised UK companies which prevented them from being sold overseas were banned under EU rules (except for defence companies) causing many important British companies running British infrastructure have been sold to foreign companies.

Britain now has an ‘empty chair’ at the World Trade Organisation (WTO), where we are a member but cannot do any of our own trade deals, as we have surrendered to the EU the power to negotiate all trade deals on our behalf.

The EU is at heart more protectionist and interventionist than the UK and we are unable to negotiate trade agreements with other nations, including emerging economies such as Brazil and China and 13 of the fastest growing world economies in the Commonwealth which would provide more free trade and be better tailored to the needs of the British economy and our exports. The EU’s semi-imperialist ‘Economic Partnerships Agreements’ (EPA’s) have drawn withering criticism from developing nations particularly in Africa and Caribbean and are unfair to these emerging nations.

We are no longer able to set up our own trade agreements with the countries of the Commonwealth which will go from strength to strength. Currently, the Commonwealth numbers nearly 2 billion people and includes 13 of the world’s fastest growing economies. By 2015, the Indian middle class alone will number a staggering 267 million people. Indeed, leading economist Willem Buiter of City Group predicts that India will supplant China to become the world’s biggest economy in 2050. Because of our EU membership, we are unable to seek far more advantageous globalised visions, for example, to pursue the concept of a Commonwealth Free Trade Area

Vote LEAVE EU

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So you have basically compI led a list of half truths, hearsay, utter nonsense, tory quotes and right wing immigration pish to form your argument for the biggest vote of your lifetime...

What would happen to the millions of British economic migrants living and working across mainland Europe or living out their retirementheory in Spain etc?

What would happen to our economy if migrant workers weren't allowed to work here?

Farming subsidies? Where are they coming from? There's nothing in place just yet.

Export markets? Where are our exports going to go without European trade agreements?

Energy... What's stopping energy prices from rocketing?

So many questions are going unanswered... maybe you should look at the positive things EU membership affords us?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Oh... I only just noticed your last post. I got as far down as 'working time directive'.

You do know that the working time directive is there to safeguard employees, don't you? You can opt out of it by signing a simple form. How else have I managed to work 80 hour weeks for the last 7 years?

Just another example of a half truth.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

will keep it short buddy, my answers are within the **** stars****

"So you have basically compI led a list of half truths, hearsay, utter nonsense, tory quotes and right wing immigration pish to form your argument for the biggest vote of your lifetime...

What would happen to the millions of British economic migrants living and working across mainland Europe or living out their retirementheory in Spain etc?

***Perhaps they would return to Britain and prop up our own economy rather than the EU****

What would happen to our economy if migrant workers weren't allowed to work here?

***Wages would go up for the UK lower paid**** but ofcourse you already know that

Farming subsidies? Where are they coming from? There's nothing in place just yet.

*** There will be, especially with the daily savings we will make when we do not have to contribute to the EU***but ofcourse you already know that

Export markets? Where are our exports going to go without European trade agreements? *****TWO WORDS- FREE TRADE***but ofcourse you already know that

So many questions are going unanswered... maybe you should look at the positive things EU membership affords us? ****I can only think of the harm that has came from EU******

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Oh... I only just noticed your last post. I got as far down as 'working time directive'.

Just another example of a half truth.

YES; The gutless will sign out / opt out whilst they bend over backwards to their employer

tell me ???

Who is the fool? - working 80 hour weeks

think about it

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

80 hour weeks for 7 years, your life will be over before it starts

come on buddy, you need to look for another job

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Stay stay stay!

It's not perfect by any stretch (what is?) but better than the catastrophic risk of an EU implosion

We will not get anything like equitable trading terms if we vote to leave as The EU will have to disincentivise anyone else from leaving

Russia must be over the moon we are doing their job for them

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Stay stay stay!

It's not perfect by any stretch (what is?) but better than the catastrophic risk of an EU implosion

We will not get anything like equitable trading terms if we vote to leave as The EU will have to disincentivise anyone else from leaving

Russia must be over the moon we are doing their job for them

I agree. Russia would love it if we left.

There's a lot wrong with the EU but we have to stay in

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Definitely LEAVE! There is too much beaurocracy and not enough accountability in the EU. Served a purpose at one time but not good for us now.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Out

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"will keep it short buddy, my answers are within the **** stars**** I'll put my reply directly afterwards...

So you have basically compI led a list of half truths, hearsay, utter nonsense, tory quotes and right wing immigration pish to form your argument for the biggest vote of your lifetime...

What would happen to the millions of British economic migrants living and working across mainland Europe or living out their retirementheory in Spain etc?

***Perhaps they would return to Britain and prop up our own economy rather than the EU**** so you want to force people back to the UK even though they don't want to be here?

What would happen to our economy if migrant workers weren't allowed to work here?

***Wages would go up for the UK lower paid**** but ofcourse you already know that wages go up? And then so will prices and that'll fuck the economy. Also, you're assuming that there are enough qualified British people to do the jobs. You're living in a dream world.

Farming subsidies? Where are they coming from? There's nothing in place just yet.

*** There will be, especially with the daily savings we will make when we do not have to contribute to the EU***but ofcourse you already know that but with nothing in place already what makes you so sure? Can you really trust a capitalist government to do that? Or will they just watch that die like every other industry?

Export markets? Where are our exports going to go without European trade agreements? *****TWO WORDS- FREE TRADE***but ofcourse you already know that we already have trade agreements with countries outside of the EU. Our exports to EU countries far out weight those though, so basically we renegotiate deals on far worse terms?

Energy... What's stopping energy prices from rocketing? ****Energy prices are rocketing just now**** what specific type of energy would you like to take about, and ofcourse if we break away from EU Home energy costs will fall, but ofcourse you already know that newsflash. The biggest energy company in the UK is French. If the French aren't governed by the EU to cap energy prices then what?

So many questions are going unanswered... maybe you should look at the positive things EU membership affords us? ****I can only think of the harm that has came from EU****** then I'm guessing your politically right wing and not willing to look for anything good.

I've had time to think and reflect on my earlier statement, and I'm going to have to stick to my guns when it comes to thinking brexit fans are stupid.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Just re read the thread, according to the op there is no rational argument or fact possible that would make anyone with a brain decide against leaving, and yet he believes it's the stay campaign who are brainwashed.

OK, I give up arguing as reason can't work with a zealot

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By *ola cubesMan
over a year ago

coatbridge

"Just re read the thread, according to the op there is no rational argument or fact possible that would make anyone with a brain decide against leaving, and yet he believes it's the stay campaign who are brainwashed.

OK, I give up arguing as reason can't work with a zealot "
I see just as many dull witted must stay scattered through the post. My opinions are just that for my way of thinking we give to much up for miniscule benefits

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By *hocolateRodMan
over a year ago

London and over UK

Stay in the Eu - it will be long term economic disaster if we leave. Listen to what Alan Sugar said !

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By *wiftieeMan
over a year ago

near Glasgow

What's Russia got to do with it?? Time to think about ourselves, spend too much time, and effort, and money thinking and giving to others.

Stay in the EU, and in 50 years time there'll hardly be a genuine Briton left in Britain.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Leave leave leave

We give too much away to the Eu

Over 250 million every week

Look after your own before you look after others

My Moto

Please vote leave "

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By *gowbhoy4funMan
over a year ago

glasgow

Defo leave !!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Leave leave leave

We give too much away to the Eu

Over 250 million every week

Look after your own before you look after others

My Moto

Please vote leave

But we're not looking after 'our own', are we? In fact, we're not really looking after anyone.

PS... define 'our own'? Do you mean humans? I mean, can you explain the difference between us and them? Because as far as I can make out the only difference is where we were fortunate/unfortunate enough to be born.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm 'probably' still in but the fact that Cameron is leading that campaign grates with me. It started off like the Indy ref with scare after scare story. Now it's all just getting petty and playground. Right now I'm really not arsed and to be honest not even sure I will vote as I can't commit one way or the other with any conviction.

That said, Boris, fuck sake, Boris. The U.K. Trump, is leading out. Where does that leave your 'got their shit together' normal human being.

If only we'd made the right vote 20 months ago!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Leave leave leave

We give too much away to the Eu

Over 250 million every week

Look after your own before you look after others

My Moto

Please vote leave

But we're not looking after 'our own', are we? In fact, we're not really looking after anyone.

Exactly! We struggle to look after our own! We have too many Families in Britain homeless! In workless house holds! In need of care! Our services are struggling and we don't have enough social housing for our own families and neighbours so doesn't make sense to me that we would keep our boarders open for people to freely come to Britain cause they are struggling were they are! I admit I don't truly understand the whole EU debate in financial terms cause it's too complicated to understand for most of us! but I DO know how my own community is being affected!

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By *ola cubesMan
over a year ago

coatbridge

"Leave leave leave

We give too much away to the Eu

Over 250 million every week

Look after your own before you look after others

My Moto

Please vote leave

But we're not looking after 'our own', are we? In fact, we're not really looking after anyone.

"
I think the point people make by their own is yes born in this country I believe if my country was as bad as some are then an uprising would happen and oust the bad. not run off to another country which seems a little easy. Im in no way a racist but I feel its time to shut the borders sort our own countrys problems the money that would have been spent on immigrants could go into education that would get get our countrymen and woman in better positions which in turn would generate more buisness

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By *arymore1Man
over a year ago

Glasgow

as a third generation immigrant I am not sure what is meant by look after our own?? at what point do we become Scottish or British (I see myself as Scottish) we are all a mix of many things going back generations.

Oh, I am an in

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Incidentally, the final straw making me an in was UKIP having Neil fucking Hamilton comment on greed and corruption in Brussels

Neil Hamilton FFS

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By *acreadCouple
over a year ago

central scotland

"Anyone who thinks that Johnson, Gove, IDS and Rupert Murdoch and George Galloway have our best interests at heart needs their head read.

And yeah, Cameron and Osborne are equally crooked, but that side also have pretty much every business leader, scientist and economist in the world on it. "
My thoughts exactly and the same ones that say the £350 million per week (figures that they know are wrong) that we pay could be used for the NHS are the people that are currently privatising the NHS there are lotaof Tory MPs who have an interest in private health companies and would love it to go completely private. If we do leave htose right wing brexit MPs will start to do away with workers rights and it will be aquick change they are only restrained by the EU rules just now.

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By *esi tardkaCouple
over a year ago

acton

We are out .. Long live commonwealth

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By *acreadCouple
over a year ago

central scotland

"I'm 'probably' still in but the fact that Cameron is leading that campaign grates with me. It started off like the Indy ref with scare after scare story. Now it's all just getting petty and playground. Right now I'm really not arsed and to be honest not even sure I will vote as I can't commit one way or the other with any conviction.

That said, Boris, fuck sake, Boris. The U.K. Trump, is leading out. Where does that leave your 'got their shit together' normal human being.

If only we'd made the right vote 20 months ago!

B"
Having saw Cameron on an IN/ Out debate I very much doubt if he realy wants the uK to stay in my opinion he wants brexit.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

A few out voter's so im saying in just for the banter

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By *ost SockMan
over a year ago

West Wales and Cardiff

"Incidentally, the final straw making me an in was UKIP having Neil fucking Hamilton comment on greed and corruption in Brussels

Neil Hamilton FFS"

Sorry - Celtic cousin here whose interested in the Scottish perspective.

I can see arguments for leaving, but it amazes me that UKIP is on the march in Wales and that fool Hamilton has a seat in the assembly now. He's already embarrassed himself.

I keep hearing my fellow Welsh folk saying "the EU has done nothing for me/us". It's far from perfect, but Wales is a net beneficiary from the EU!

I've spent most of my working life in communities that are amongst the poorest in the UK. They have received massive amounts of support through Objective One funding etc. The same people who moan about the EU "doing nothing for us" walk on land reclaimed and environmentally enhanced by EU funding, go for jobs in factories in industrial estates built with EU money, getting there on roads dualled with EU funding.

I feel successive UK governments have shown a shameful neglect for those poorest areas and

I'd imagine the same is true in Scotland. What good I've seen done whilst working and living there has mostly come from funding from those faceless bureaucrats in Europe. I'm far from convinced that a right-wing government with the likes of Boris, Gove or IDS would show the slightest concern for those areas and would allow the market to rule their futures.

I'm actually not a socialist - I believe Wales and Scotland needs to be more entrepreneurial and grasp opportunities e.g. in digital technologies. However, I do believe areas of industrial decline in our two parts of the U.K. need special attention and support to rectify the neglect shown over many years.

I don't believe a Boris led Tory administration would give them a second thought.

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By *at69driveMan
over a year ago

Hertford

"80 hour weeks for 7 years, your life will be over before it starts

come on buddy, you need to look for another job"
Some peope really enjoy their work. That is an admirable attribute .

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Out as soon as possible.

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By *heesyheadbandMan
over a year ago

Glenrothes

"If we do leave htose right wing brexit MPs will start to do away with workers rights and it will be a quick change they are only restrained by the EU rules just now."

well maybe it's about time workers/people made a stand, these companies would be nothing without them, people need to realise that they are actually being made slaves.

honestly doesn't make sense to me how things are the way they are, how the hell did we let these people in too decide the way we live our lives?

bullshit lies, bailouts, wars, expenses, etc etc the list is huge

it's not like they're intelligent, quite the opposite ffs they can't even keep a simple budget, morons.

they are taking the piss, laughing at the under classes and we are doing nothing about it, have people really become that dumb and wrapped up in their own little lives, that they don't really care until something happens that affects them.

too busy with soaps, BGT, X factor, social media platforms etc etc

since when have we become so soft lol

rant over!

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"If we do leave htose right wing brexit MPs will start to do away with workers rights and it will be a quick change they are only restrained by the EU rules just now.

well maybe it's about time workers/people made a stand, these companies would be nothing without them, people need to realise that they are actually being made slaves.

honestly doesn't make sense to me how things are the way they are, how the hell did we let these people in too decide the way we live our lives?

bullshit lies, bailouts, wars, expenses, etc etc the list is huge

it's not like they're intelligent, quite the opposite ffs they can't even keep a simple budget, morons.

too busy with soaps, BGT, X factor, social media platforms etc etc

since when have we become so soft lol

rant over!

That is not a rant; that is spot on

The majority of the UK workforce is gutless, unprepared to make a stand for their rights and will stab fellow work colleagues in the back to obtain as little as a few hours overtime.

Thatcher had it right in the 80's opening up the right to buy, so everyone could hang a noose around their neck with huge mortgage and frightened to say boo or stand up for their rights with fear of being docked an hours pay.

I remember sitting on the helidecks on strike in the 80's fighting for better conditions, more time off (leave) and eventually we got a 2 week on 3 week off rota, almost 30 years on oil companies have put the majority on 3/3 and everyone frightened to speak out (and that's big bear oil workers).

The majority of the UK bends over backwards to take a fucking from their employer today without standing up for their rights or fighting for better conditions

now that's a rant

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By *acreadCouple
over a year ago

central scotland

"If we do leave htose right wing brexit MPs will start to do away with workers rights and it will be a quick change they are only restrained by the EU rules just now.

well maybe it's about time workers/people made a stand, these companies would be nothing without them, people need to realise that they are actually being made slaves.

honestly doesn't make sense to me how things are the way they are, how the hell did we let these people in too decide the way we live our lives?

bullshit lies, bailouts, wars, expenses, etc etc the list is huge

it's not like they're intelligent, quite the opposite ffs they can't even keep a simple budget, morons.

too busy with soaps, BGT, X factor, social media platforms etc etc

since when have we become so soft lol

rant over!

That is not a rant; that is spot on

The majority of the UK workforce is gutless, unprepared to make a stand for their rights and will stab fellow work colleagues in the back to obtain as little as a few hours overtime.

The majority of the UK bends over backwards to take a fucking from their employer today without standing up for their rights or fighting for better conditions

now that's a rant

"
You both got it bang on and remember the blacklist that came form the north sea sit in some boys did not work for a long time after that and I remember our steward a man who was for the men did not work for 5 years, we see all the people complain about the French air traffic controllers going on strike sure it is shit when you are abbout to go on holiday but these people are actually doing something while we sit and whinge to each other about all the corruption and double dealings going on plus the austerity that seems to = take from Joe Bloggs and give to mr millionaire.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If we do leave htose right wing brexit MPs will start to do away with workers rights and it will be a quick change they are only restrained by the EU rules just now.

well maybe it's about time workers/people made a stand, these companies would be nothing without them, people need to realise that they are actually being made slaves.

honestly doesn't make sense to me how things are the way they are, how the hell did we let these people in too decide the way we live our lives?

bullshit lies, bailouts, wars, expenses, etc etc the list is huge

it's not like they're intelligent, quite the opposite ffs they can't even keep a simple budget, morons.

too busy with soaps, BGT, X factor, social media platforms etc etc

since when have we become so soft lol

rant over!

That is not a rant; that is spot on

The majority of the UK workforce is gutless, unprepared to make a stand for their rights and will stab fellow work colleagues in the back to obtain as little as a few hours overtime.

The majority of the UK bends over backwards to take a fucking from their employer today without standing up for their rights or fighting for better conditions

now that's a rant

For once I'll agree with you a lot. Yes, if people are genuinely pissed off with working hours, pay, ect, go on strike, protest. We have a right to let companies and the government know if we feel down trodden, if they wont listen or act on complaint then profit and efficiency can suffer for a while till they buck their ideas up.

Not sure about peoples opinions on the matter but look at the doctors strike.

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By *oody2shoesWoman
over a year ago

dunbartonshire

"If us voting made a actual difference then we wouldn't be allowed to vote, personally think all voting is rigged but if it did make a difference then I'd say leave the EU, get our own country back on its feet before we start looking over the big pond. Get back out farming communities again, plenty of ways to generate the lost EU income without worrying about the scaremongering

John

For first time ever i think we might actually agree on something john lol

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By *at69driveMan
over a year ago

Hertford

"If we do leave htose right wing brexit MPs will start to do away with workers rights and it will be a quick change they are only restrained by the EU rules just now.

well maybe it's about time workers/people made a stand, these companies would be nothing without them, people need to realise that they are actually being made slaves.

honestly doesn't make sense to me how things are the way they are, how the hell did we let these people in too decide the way we live our lives?

bullshit lies, bailouts, wars, expenses, etc etc the list is huge

it's not like they're intelligent, quite the opposite ffs they can't even keep a simple budget, morons.

too busy with soaps, BGT, X factor, social media platforms etc etc

since when have we become so soft lol

rant over!

That is not a rant; that is spot on

The majority of the UK workforce is gutless, unprepared to make a stand for their rights and will stab fellow work colleagues in the back to obtain as little as a few hours overtime.

The majority of the UK bends over backwards to take a fucking from their employer today without standing up for their rights or fighting for better conditions

now that's a rant

You both got it bang on and remember the blacklist that came form the north sea sit in some boys did not work for a long time after that and I remember our steward a man who was for the men did not work for 5 years, we see all the people complain about the French air traffic controllers going on strike sure it is shit when you are abbout to go on holiday but these people are actually doing something while we sit and whinge to each other about all the corruption and double dealings going on plus the austerity that seems to = take from Joe Bloggs and give to mr millionaire.

"
The French air traffic controllers are hardly an example to follow. They are just totally selfish people living in a by gone era who seem to be happy to destroy peoples holidays .

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By *at69driveMan
over a year ago

Hertford

"If we do leave htose right wing brexit MPs will start to do away with workers rights and it will be a quick change they are only restrained by the EU rules just now.

well maybe it's about time workers/people made a stand, these companies would be nothing without them, people need to realise that they are actually being made slaves.

honestly doesn't make sense to me how things are the way they are, how the hell did we let these people in too decide the way we live our lives?

bullshit lies, bailouts, wars, expenses, etc etc the list is huge

it's not like they're intelligent, quite the opposite ffs they can't even keep a simple budget, morons.

too busy with soaps, BGT, X factor, social media platforms etc etc

since when have we become so soft lol

rant over!

That is not a rant; that is spot on

The majority of the UK workforce is gutless, unprepared to make a stand for their rights and will stab fellow work colleagues in the back to obtain as little as a few hours overtime.

The majority of the UK bends over backwards to take a fucking from their employer today without standing up for their rights or fighting for better conditions

now that's a rant

"
Luckily the majority of workers have sufficient common sense to realise that companies have to operate profitably . If you think that you are underpaid , the answer is simple , go and work somewhere else .

What rights are you referring to?.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"now that's a rant

Yes I agree and Press were one of the top companies to blacklist the guys, at least we stood up for ourselves. The French have always got it right, they look after their own

As for the UK today, gutless is one word which comes to mind

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"-) Luckily the majority of workers have sufficient common sense to realise that companies have to operate profitably . If you think that you are underpaid , the answer is simple , go and work somewhere else .

What rights are you referring to?. "

Pat69drive; I suspect you are either in management or a voiceless employee

I am far from underpaid, oil corporations throw cash at employees, I fight for better working conditions and a reasonable amount of time at home, does health & safety not ring a bell to you, or is it just about money

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Honestly don't think it will make one iota of difference in terms of economics, migration or political influence whatsoever. It will only cement our so called national identity one way or the other.

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By *at69driveMan
over a year ago

Hertford

What rights are you referring to?.

Pat69drive; I suspect you are either in management or a voiceless employee

"
If oil companies are throwing cash at enployees this should be investigated as it is share holders money . The price of shares in some oil companies companies has collapsed recently.

As oil companies are generally good employees , fighting for your so called rigbts is hardly necessary.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"-)

If oil companies are throwing cash at enployees this should be investigated as it is share holders money . The price of shares in some oil companies companies has collapsed recently.

As oil companies are generally good employees , fighting for your so called rigbts is hardly necessary. "

share prices collapsed; not that im aware off, and our company has a scheme buy one, get two free, so each month you can buy £250 worth of shares and the total amount being £750

and even if shares do fall, they soon fire back up

as for your next part; you have obviously never worked offshore on the oilrigs, never experienced the day to day danger & risk involved as well as risk assessments that are rewritten to enable a job to go ahead, you have never experienced 2 or 3 man rooms where you sleep in room with guys you have never met before, nor have you experienced the shocking food, lack of sleep due to noise and the explosive environment you work in!!!

but then, why complain eh

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By *acreadCouple
over a year ago

central scotland

"-)

If oil companies are throwing cash at enployees this should be investigated as it is share holders money . The price of shares in some oil companies companies has collapsed recently.

As oil companies are generally good employees , fighting for your so called rigbts is hardly necessary.

share prices collapsed; not that im aware off, and our company has a scheme buy one, get two free, so each month you can buy £250 worth of shares and the total amount being £750

and even if shares do fall, they soon fire back up

but then, why complain eh

"
As said you cannot have worked in that environment so wont know what it is about I did in the early to mid eighties and as mentioned the sit in saw a lot of men lose jobs and resulted in being many blacklisted ( any thoughts on the blacklist?) £ companies have recently paid out £73 million in compensation to some of those blacklisted and hopefully a lot more will get justice too as it is not too well publicised and a lot probably do not know that there is now a lsit that can be checked to see if your name was on it.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

ITV/STV Debate

watched it last night and its one of the first more controlled without constant shouting and squabbling over each other

It did however convince me to tear up my SNP membership as I can no longer support Nicola Sturgeon,

what are your Scottish views on last nights debate?

Andrea Leadsom was the overall star of the show, she was calm, collective and spot on with her arguments

Gisela Stuart; agreeably the most knowledgeable on the show with a vast of EU Knowledge

Boris; as much as people dislike him, he done well and got his points across without attacking the remain campaign in retaliation for constant attacks from them.

Angela Eagle; she was the worst on the show, far too nervous, bundling her words and taking far too long to construct a sentence, she gave a very poor show

Nicola Sturgeon: bla bla Scotland, bla bla Independence, think she is still reliving the last referendum

Amber Rudd; constant attack on Borris which did not come done well as others tried to produce an agreement rather than attack

On a whole the Leave side came across far better on this debate and this was simply down to Gisela Stuart and the star of the show Andrea Leadsom

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By *at69driveMan
over a year ago

Hertford

"-)

If oil companies are throwing cash at enployees this should be investigated as it is share holders money . The price of shares in some oil companies companies has collapsed recently.

As oil companies are generally good employees , fighting for your so called rigbts is hardly necessary.

share prices collapsed; not that im aware off, and our company has a scheme buy one, get two free, so each month you can buy £250 worth of shares and the total amount being £750

and even if shares do fall, they soon fire back up

but then, why complain eh

"
However , no one is compelled to work in that type of environment . If you do not like your working conditions , why not just leave and let those who have the best interests of the company at heart get on with it .

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

from my point of view, I'm not british and so I feel discriminated in this referendum as it affects my future too by not letting me vote, in these days leave the EU is a mistake, if you check around all the countries in Europe are members of EU or have agreements to deal on it, if UK votes leave they would be out of EU, so no agreements, they would need to negociate them and germans are already saying that it won't happen. all the goods going from uk to europe would be taxed, which would affect to the exportations, as european products would be cheaper in the market

UK are islands, and the closer big market is EU, otherwise they would need to improve the exportation to USA

Gibraltar would be isolated, with no free transition for people and goods, which would be a potential chaos, as it is too small to even produce any food, they even thought about a dual "ownership" between uk and Spain, I rather see them isolated than be part of Spain just because it is better for them when they refuse this solution when Blair and Aznar negociated it.

People. this a big point, Scotland is full of european inmigrants, most of them working, even if some politicians believe we are here abusing on the benefits, the solution here is not easy, give the citizenship to foreigners so we can stay without visa, are we gonna have to get a visa like USA, I won't accept a visa system like the american one where my visa would be related to my contract in a company, could Scotland stay without the migrants? there are over a million brits in Spain, they would need to return to their country and apply for a visa to be able to go to spain where some of them has bought properties, the retired ones would find theirselves in a country where they need visa to stay up to 90 days and no public health system for them so they would need to pay for the medical costs...

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Such as Life; get used to it

If you have a good job and you are a valued employee your employer will take care of visa & residential requirements.

As for your million Brits in Spain, I am sure they will all be voting to remain, if it goes tits up for them then they will have to modify their comfortable lifestyle just like anyone else.

We all need to vote Leave, and we all need to turn out to do this

Vote Leave

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm in for a few reasons

- human rights protection. I do t trust the Tories without the watchful eye of the away

- workers / employment rights. Same reasons as above

- free movement, the ability to just go and work and live in Germany/ Spain etc without visas is brilliant

- regeneration funding. This will be pulled, the poorest areas will suffer

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm in for a few reasons

- human rights protection. I do t trust the Tories without the watchful eye of the away

- workers / employment rights. Same reasons as above

- free movement, the ability to just go and work and live in Germany/ Spain etc without visas is brilliant

- regeneration funding. This will be pulled, the poorest areas will suffer

*dont

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Such as Life; get used to it

If you have a good job and you are a valued employee your employer will take care of visa & residential requirements.

As for your million Brits in Spain, I am sure they will all be voting to remain, if it goes tits up for them then they will have to modify their comfortable lifestyle just like anyone else.

We all need to vote Leave, and we all need to turn out to do this

Vote Leave"

when your visa is related to a contract you are suffering a kind of slavery, you cannot afford to leave a job because any reason because you are risking be kicked out of the country, if I have a well paid job I can fin a equally well paid job somewhere else

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By *hickensCouple
over a year ago

Inverness-ish

"Ok, so if we leave, will we become trading partners like we were when it was the old EEC?

But without the extra laws and costs that are associated with the EU?

Not quite, we would need to negotiate a deal similair to Norway or Switzerland, which would mean still forking over billions each year and accepting most EU laws,rules and regs. However we would not get a seat at the table when the laws, rules and regs are being decided.that would be down to us negotiating we wouldnt have to accept anything the eu say. also it wouldnt happen ocernight there is a cooling period of two yrs to get these issues settled. Everything would hinge on what was negotiated"

Not sure that is correct. My understanding is that like every British company that sells or provides service to another it has to reach the quality control procedures of the recipient.

If the UK wishes to sell or provide anything to somewhere within the EU then it will have to conform to the EU's quality control procedures, either in product or service.

Out of the EU would mean the UK could not negotiate what those standards were, but simply put up with them.

By the way I'm still leave, just, but I do think it won't be until our grandchildren are drawing their pensions that the UK will see the benefits of leaving.

Scary stuff this ref.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Gogsy Broon is back...new Vow coming tomorrow.

Interesting to see Cameron saying this morning on Marr about Norway: 'it has the same amount of oil as we have but it only has 4m(sic) people...so it's better off'

Suspect that might come to haunt him...

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By *leasure domMan
over a year ago

Edinburgh

If we are to enjoy any acceptable degree of autonomy and decide our own future as a nation, that can only be achieved by leaving the UK and the EC, as both institutions are deeply undemocratic and resistant to reform.

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By *leasure domMan
over a year ago

Edinburgh

"Gogsy Broon is back...new Vow coming tomorrow.

All the termites are crawling out of the woodwork with warnings of doom if we dare to vote against the dysfunctional status quo - Major minor of ERM notoriety, Blair the warmongering psychopath who brought catastrophe to the Middle East and Broon the sociopath who thought it was a good idea to socialise the losses of the financial buccaneers and transfer that burden on to the taxpayer.

These idiots also ask us to listen to the "respected" economists/guesswork pundits who failed to forecast the financial crash and who claimed that it was vital that we should adopt the euro!!!

Amazing - they still think they enjoy some credibility!

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By *UNKIEMan
over a year ago

south east

The idea of the EU should work and benefit all however the EU is broken and not fit for purpose at the moment and tbh i cannot see that changing anytime soon so for that reason i'm out

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm leaving.

Fed up with the liberal elite screwing us over and dismissing genuine concerns of ordinary people. To express concern over rapid population increase through mass unchecked immigration is not racist!

Threats of war pestilence famine and plague in the case of Brexit are incredible. It is only a couple of months ago that Cameron was telling us we could do fine outside of the EU and he was ruling nothing out!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I'm leaving.

Fed up with the liberal elite screwing us over and dismissing genuine concerns of ordinary people. To express concern over rapid population increase through mass unchecked immigration is not racist!

are you voting to leave or just leaving no matter what way it goes ?

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By *ola cubesMan
over a year ago

coatbridge

"Ok, so if we leave, will we become trading partners like we were when it was the old EEC?

But without the extra laws and costs that are associated with the EU?

Not quite, we would need to negotiate a deal similair to Norway or Switzerland, which would mean still forking over billions each year and accepting most EU laws,rules and regs. However we would not get a seat at the table when the laws, rules and regs are being decided.that would be down to us negotiating we wouldnt have to accept anything the eu say. also it wouldnt happen ocernight there is a cooling period of two yrs to get these issues settled. Everything would hinge on what was negotiated

Not sure that is correct. My understanding is that like every British company that sells or provides service to another it has to reach the quality control procedures of the recipient.

If the UK wishes to sell or provide anything to somewhere within the EU then it will have to conform to the EU's quality control procedures, either in product or service.

Out of the EU would mean the UK could not negotiate what those standards were, but simply put up with them.

By the way I'm still leave, just, but I do think it won't be until our grandchildren are drawing their pensions that the UK will see the benefits of leaving.

Scary stuff this ref."
much in the same way we sell to countrys outwith the eu. Sit round a table and hash out a deal I believe these matters are better in our own hands I see no advantage in faceles folk who dont understand how we tick telling us how to tock

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

how many companies that manufacture in scotland are actually uk based most are foreign owned who produce here so that can distribute freely and the eu it wont be us thats renegotiating it will be them and a lot will relocate to the eu then import back to us at the cost of a lot of jobs

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By *ola cubesMan
over a year ago

coatbridge

"how many companies that manufacture in scotland are actually uk based most are foreign owned who produce here so that can distribute freely and the eu it wont be us thats renegotiating it will be them and a lot will relocate to the eu then import back to us at the cost of a lot of jobs "
or we let them go the workers have the skillset an entrepreneur sets up a buisness and we fleece the eu its swings and roundabouts phoenix from the flames as someone has said above the benefits of leaving may take a while.imo the eu is a broken concept because each country has its own if you will flavour that the eu want to stamp out in order to make a cohesive entity. When you look at any large country they want to seperate to keep their flavour america has lots of states that want seperation canadas another china or the good old ussr

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"how many companies that manufacture in scotland are actually uk based most are foreign owned who produce here so that can distribute freely and the eu it wont be us thats renegotiating it will be them and a lot will relocate to the eu then import back to us at the cost of a lot of jobs or we let them go the workers have the skillset an entrepreneur sets up a buisness and we fleece the eu its swings and roundabouts phoenix from the flames as someone has said above the benefits of leaving may take a while.imo the eu is a broken concept because each country has its own if you will flavour that the eu want to stamp out in order to make a cohesive entity. When you look at any large country they want to seperate to keep their flavour america has lots of states that want seperation canadas another china or the good old ussr "

you cant just manufacture other companies products theirs copy right for that same reason no one can make scotch whiskey and samr reason barrs fought and won to stop russia producing irn bru jvc shut down ek and moved to poland to cut production costs i dont see anyone opening it up and selling ek tellys

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By *gowbhoy4funMan
over a year ago

glasgow

Definitely leave

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By *ola cubesMan
over a year ago

coatbridge

"how many companies that manufacture in scotland are actually uk based most are foreign owned who produce here so that can distribute freely and the eu it wont be us thats renegotiating it will be them and a lot will relocate to the eu then import back to us at the cost of a lot of jobs or we let them go the workers have the skillset an entrepreneur sets up a buisness and we fleece the eu its swings and roundabouts phoenix from the flames as someone has said above the benefits of leaving may take a while.imo the eu is a broken concept because each country has its own if you will flavour that the eu want to stamp out in order to make a cohesive entity. When you look at any large country they want to seperate to keep their flavour america has lots of states that want seperation canadas another china or the good old ussr

"
why not ? If the products good lg retails about 30% cheaper than sony.......but uses alot of the same parts and of course companys will go where its best (not neccesarily cheapest) thats where we would have to make it an inviting prospect we managed before the eu and imo alot of the strife we now feel is due to eu intervention hell im sure in your opinion im wrong but thats why the referendums been handed to the people

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"how many companies that manufacture in scotland are actually uk based most are foreign owned who produce here so that can distribute freely and the eu it wont be us thats renegotiating it will be them and a lot will relocate to the eu then import back to us at the cost of a lot of jobs or we let them go the workers have the skillset an entrepreneur sets up a buisness and we fleece the eu its swings and roundabouts phoenix from the flames as someone has said above the benefits of leaving may take a while.imo the eu is a broken concept because each country has its own if you will flavour that the eu want to stamp out in order to make a cohesive entity. When you look at any large country they want to seperate to keep their flavour america has lots of states that want seperation canadas another china or the good old ussr

why not ? If the products good lg retails about 30% cheaper than sony.......but uses alot of the same parts and of course companys will go where its best (not neccesarily cheapest) thats where we would have to make it an inviting prospect we managed before the eu and imo alot of the strife we now feel is due to eu intervention hell im sure in your opinion im wrong but thats why the referendums been handed to the people"

but these parts are copy written too and why some tvs are better than others same as if you want a fuel pump for your car chances are its either a bosch or a lucas because they own the copy rights to their own pumps and a world company like jvc buy their parts far cheaper than a one man band would so it cost you three times as much to make the telly you wont sell many

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By *ola cubesMan
over a year ago

coatbridge

Getting of point but copyright of an article is very hard to tie down its the reason there are lots of third party producers alot of things take multiple things to work change the position of a transistor the copy protection is void the car industry is full of replica suppliers. Dysons a good example believing he had tied down his invention to later find other companys using his copy protected invention court found no case to answer

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Getting of point but copyright of an article is very hard to tie down its the reason there are lots of third party producers alot of things take multiple things to work change the position of a transistor the copy protection is void the car industry is full of replica suppliers. Dysons a good example believing he had tied down his invention to later find other companys using his copy protected invention court found no case to answer "

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By *ola cubesMan
over a year ago

coatbridge

their not that hard look at mcdonalds its only a burger and some chips why is their no uk based drive ins ? because they own the rights to the way the burger is frozen and still be cooked in 30 sec but the point is why would a company produce 10,000 units and pay import tax on 8000 to the eu when they can produce 10,000 in eu and only pay tax on 2000 sent back to us "
is that mcdonalds that "claim" the intellectual rights on making sandwiches ie if I have a bbq and have lettuce tomato onion I would be in copyright infringment as its there sandwich. The biggest reason there is no other drive ins is us we (well most i dont eat eyeballs n testicles)choose to allow them to corner the market I buy from a burger van across the road as I detest fast food that I have no faith in mcds has made loads of failed patents a better question to ask is why does their patties not rot like real food but thats a whole other debate

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

we where threatened at the referendum if we went independent we would not get in the eu now we are getting took out if the uk vote to leave we should have another referendum so the people of scotland can decide if we leave as part of the uk or stay as independent and whats best for scotland

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By *ola cubesMan
over a year ago

coatbridge

"we where threatened at the referendum if we went independent we would not get in the eu now we are getting took out if the uk vote to leave we should have another referendum so the people of scotland can decide if we leave as part of the uk or stay as independent and whats best for scotland

"
im pretty sure in a yr or twos time irrespective of this result a seperation referendum will be called I also believe it will be a landslide result as more folk have engaged with whats at risk

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

im pretty sure in a yr or twos time irrespective of this result a seperation referendum will be called I also believe it will be a landslide result as more folk have engaged with whats at risk"

if we leave to get more powers who gets the power ? will scotland get them ? no chance we will still be controlled from london without anyone keeping them in check

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Stay then leave the UK when we have another referendum and remain in the eu.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Gogsy Broon is back...new Vow coming tomorrow.

Interesting to see Cameron saying this morning on Marr about Norway: 'it has the same amount of oil as we have but it only has 4m(sic) people...so it's better off'

Suspect that might come to haunt him...

YES, I also picked up on that, his words were - Norway only has 4 million population where as we have 60 million, I am glad you picked up on that too

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

As much as I fought for Independence and I am a SNP member, I am beginning to believe that Nicola Sturgeon is not whats "best" for Scotland

I have already voted to leave the EU (against snp wishes)and from who I have spoken direct to, so far, other snp members are voting to leave also

just out of interest? are there any snp members here wishing to remain? just curious as so far I have not came across any in the area I live

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Anyone who truly believes in democracy should vote to leave. The unelected European Commission make all policy decisions and we have no say over them and we can't remove or replace them. One big cash cow quango. On that point alone it's a oot vote from me.

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By *oldsteadyMan
over a year ago

glasgow

Voting leave, amongst other things, puts your employment rights, pension, NHS and economic prospects into the hands of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Ian Duncan Smith.

What a dark, gloomy prospect that is.

If you thought the last eight years of austerity was bad.......

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By *ola cubesMan
over a year ago

coatbridge

"Voting leave, amongst other things, puts your employment rights, pension, NHS and economic prospects into the hands of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Ian Duncan Smith.

What a dark, gloomy prospect that is.

If you thought the last eight years of austerity was bad......."
its ok to take the pi** oit of boris mick and ian yoir forgeting to take the pi** out the rest of the politicians the biggest diffrence as someone said above if we leave we can vote the idiots out stay you just have to bend over and accept

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

adiós

ciao

auf Wiedersehen

au revoir

bon voyage

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By *ost SockMan
over a year ago

West Wales and Cardiff

"Voting leave, amongst other things, puts your employment rights, pension, NHS and economic prospects into the hands of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Ian Duncan Smith.

What a dark, gloomy prospect that is.

If you thought the last eight years of austerity was bad.......its ok to take the pi** oit of boris mick and ian yoir forgeting to take the pi** out the rest of the politicians the biggest diffrence as someone said above if we leave we can vote the idiots out stay you just have to bend over and accept"

But if we leave, the break up of the UK is highly likely, leading to a perpetual Tory government dominated by the likes of these idealogues.

God help the poorer parts of the England and Wales in that scenario - and I'm not even a socialist.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

their not that hard look at mcdonalds its only a burger and some chips why is their no uk based drive ins ? because they own the rights to the way the burger is frozen and still be cooked in 30 sec but the point is why would a company produce 10,000 units and pay import tax on 8000 to the eu when they can produce 10,000 in eu and only pay tax on 2000 sent back to us is that mcdonalds that "claim" the intellectual rights on making sandwiches ie if I have a bbq and have lettuce tomato onion I would be in copyright infringment as its there sandwich. The biggest reason there is no other drive ins is us we (well most i dont eat eyeballs n testicles)choose to allow them to corner the market I buy from a burger van across the road as I detest fast food that I have no faith in mcds has made loads of failed patents a better question to ask is why does their patties not rot like real food but thats a whole other debate

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Voting leave, amongst other things, puts your employment rights, pension, NHS and economic prospects into the hands of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Ian Duncan Smith.

What a dark, gloomy prospect that is.

If you thought the last eight years of austerity was bad......."

WRONG, employment rights, pension, NHS and economic prospects are in the hands of the UK people, (if they have the courage to stand up and fight, like our parents and grand parents once did)

It is time we stood up on our own two feet without demands and instruction from the EU

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By *wiftieeMan
over a year ago

near Glasgow

Just seen NS on the tv re the EU.

You really couldn't make it up; Labour got hammered for siding with the Tories in the Independence referendum, but it seems to be ok for her to spout the same rubbish as Cameron and Osborne re the EU referendum.

The SNP is all about getting independence from Westminster, but they want to get into bed with the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels.

People need to waken up to the fact that the EU has nothing to do with economics; it's all to do with the removal of individual countries' democracy and sovereignty.

The guy who started the EU ball rolling did so because after the WWs, he decided that democracy had failed, but instead of sorting democracy, as he saw it, he decided that responsibility should be taken away from the common people and given to the all-knowing 'elite'. THAT is what the EU is about.

And a final question: why did Cameron suddenly bring forward the referendum from some time in 2017, to the middle of 2016? Simple; there's a whole raft of new/additional power grabbing on the way from Brussels, so he wanted the referendum before it arrived.

Waken up people. People, open your eyes and your minds.

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By *ola cubesMan
over a year ago

coatbridge

their not that hard look at mcdonalds its only a burger and some chips why is their no uk based drive ins ? because they own the rights to the way the burger is frozen and still be cooked in 30 sec but the point is why would a company produce 10,000 units and pay import tax on 8000 to the eu when they can produce 10,000 in eu and only pay tax on 2000 sent back to us is that mcdonalds that "claim" the intellectual rights on making sandwiches ie if I have a bbq and have lettuce tomato onion I would be in copyright infringment as its there sandwich. The biggest reason there is no other drive ins is us we (well most i dont eat eyeballs n testicles)choose to allow them to corner the market I buy from a burger van across the road as I detest fast food that I have no faith in mcds has made loads of failed patents a better question to ask is why does their patties not rot like real food but thats a whole other debate

the burguers don't rot because they are salty and so slim, as they are salty the salt dehydratate the burguer, no water no roting, and around the burguer you have bread, which absorbs the water from the burguer, so the trick is the amount of salt and how thick they are"
yes water content is a factor not the main one though a woman in the states who promotes healthy eating uses a burger as a prop........14 yrs old still looks the same

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/heres-why-mcdonalds-burgers-don-t-rot/

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 15/06/16 20:45:25]

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By *at69driveMan
over a year ago

Hertford

"Voting leave, amongst other things, puts your employment rights, pension, NHS and economic prospects into the hands of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Ian Duncan Smith.

What a dark, gloomy prospect that is.

If you thought the last eight years of austerity was bad......."
Hi. There is no need to worry about austerity .

Just look at the record number of new cars being sold , packed restaurants and the prices people pay to attend football matches.

Your pension will depend on how you invest your funds , so over time there is nothing to worry about .

If we leave there will be less strain on the NHS

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