FabSwingers.com forum: lockerbie

By *eather OP Woman
over a year ago

glasgow

Just watched the programme on this whaSt folks oppinion on should Megrahi have been freed. I say a very loud NO

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Is that the guy the got fitted up for the Lockerbie bombing?

If he actually did it, then NO

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By *omma46Man
over a year ago

GLASGOW

hi _eather, i say a very loud NO, also, having seen the aftermath of that mass murder over lockerbie, i was there some months later on a day trip to the trossachs, from newcastle and i remember the devastation of the area caused by the bombing of that plane.

that man should have died, in a scottish jail, and the justice minister, should have resigned for allowing this man to go back to his homeland, its made a mockery of natural justice, he should have rotted and died in prison.

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By *awty_MissDynomiteNo1Woman
over a year ago

No idea, I'm lost. Damn Sat nav!

NO he should'nt have been set free

but its all political always was and always will be

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By *stwoCouple
over a year ago

anywhere

I f he did it no.But i think its very highly unlikely it was him.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm not convinced Megrahi is guilty but, in the eyes of the Scottish legal system, he was and still is.

MacAskill realised him in an attempt to raise the profile of Scotland as a progressive, humanitarian country. It has backfired spectacularly.

It'll be interesting to see just how Tartan Week in New York 2011 pans out. I suspect any Scottish politician dropping in will end up in Guantanamo Bay.

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By *eather OP Woman
over a year ago

glasgow

we have 2 of the best hospices near where i stay marie curie and the prince and princess of wales. so he could have been in any one of them also an oncology expert said being at home with his family helped him.His family was here.im sorry for bringing this up but go to the memorial at dryserf cemetry in lockerbie its very moving

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

One of the American parents summed it up well. MacAskill claims to have realised Megrahi on humanitarian ground. The Yank argued that, if that were the case, Megrahi should have remained at his family home in Newton Mearns. MacAskill argued that would cost too much.

Scotland, yet again, is portrayed as stingy in the eyes of the world.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

i dont disagree with our governments decision at all, and i believe the Americans and English are wrong to pick holes in the reasons behind it. I dont recall many Scots demanding justice when thier relatives die in America...and then bullying thier noses in when they dont get thier way...

cant be bothered with all the arguing this thread will probably cause, but the guy was only pinned for the crime as he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Please remember the Father of one of the girl and a few other relatives of those who died was one of the main Supporters of Maghrahi's appeals and release....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

as you have all pointed out, its a big IF he done it. now wether i do or dont agree if he got out or not is a differnt matter but 1 point id like to point out...

the law, like it or not says that if said person is dying (ok we know he hasnt yet) then they get this early release. its a pish law if you ask me. no one said anythign when biggs or what ever his name is got out early and no doubt others as well. but the biggest thing that pisses me off about this is how the USA have went about moaning to us for what we have done. in my opinion, tell the americans to fuck off, they have done a lot worse in a lot more cases so what gives them the right to tell anyone how to rule.

now as i said the law in itself is pish and should be scraped along with plenty other pish laws, but what do i know.

i also dont agree us tax payers should have paid anythgin to keep him in a cushy jail or in a safe house or anythign here. in a way im glad he is out of our country and not costing us any more cash.

shoot me down everyone but its only my opinion

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Jim Swire's raking it in from media appearances.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

In 1988, a US navy ship fired 2 ground to air missiiles at an Iranian passenger plane killing 290 passengers. I think they even gave the captain of ship who gave the order to fire a medal!!

Think theres a US navy captain needing justice dealt too?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It wasn't him that planted the bomb so I don't have a problem freeing him for something he didn't do.

He took the rap for it which was wrong but who knows what sort of pressure was put on him to do that.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"In 1988, a US navy ship fired 2 ground to air missiiles at an Iranian passenger plane killing 290 passengers. I think they even gave the captain of ship who gave the order to fire a medal!!

Think theres a US navy captain needing justice dealt too?"

I saw the documentary about this.

A whole catalogue of unfortunate things happened to cause the order to be given.

A medal for him isn't right but he can't be blamed for giving the order.

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By *hickencurryCouple
over a year ago

brisbane

very dubious conviction imho and the public and certainly the police and government are unfortunately results based and needed a conviction. The american administration can beat their chests all they want fact is this country is not their juristiction and they are entitled to an opinion but that's all it is, an opinion. the man has been tried sentenced and released under our legal system which i'm glad to say is not influenced by american politicians. my twuppence worth

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By *ountrypairCouple
over a year ago

edinburgh

hate getting involved in politics especially when we are not sure about getting all the truth BUT if he did do it then he should rot in jail

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

libya only agreed to deport the 2 convicted men for trial if it was agreed they were to be tried by scottish court (perhaps there was precedence for leniency?!), believing that neither england nor america would hold an impartial hearing. scottish courts found the one man guilty and sentenced him to a minimum of 20 yrs in 2010, meaning he would not be allowed to appeal prior to 2020.

in 2003 libya accepted culpability of this crime: 243 passengers 16 crewmembers and 11 people in lockerbie itself...all mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, aunts, uncles, sons, daughters.....179 americans, 31 british

...and now this bomber is a national hero.

libya are not victims in an elaborate conspiracy theory, they were also responsible for selling arms to the ira, arms that were used in attacks against britain and ireland, including the eniskillen bombing.

scotland was given the duty of carrying out justice on behalf of those lives that were lost. we failed. a minimum sentence of 20 yrs prior to appeal should mean just that.

whether this man is or isn't guilty is not relevant (the fact remains, there was enough compelling evidence to prove he was guilty 'beyond reasonable doubt').

yes, he has the right to appeal on grounds of compassion to be released....doesnt make it an automatic right he should get it. I think the americans had a total right to be outraged that he was granted release without consultaition, especially in the light of the fact that his illness does not seem to be as terminal as one first was led to believe

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By *omma46Man
over a year ago

GLASGOW

Sorry to be bringing this up, in the thread, but the fact of the matter is the US administration, says jump- and the british government says how high. I saw a documentary on one of the cable channels, a couple of months ago, post world war 2, britain was on its knees financially after 6 yrs of war, against nazi germany, so it was decided, that the country needed a re-funding plan, so an Economist called Maynard Keanes, was sent to the US, to negotiate a loan deal to help re-build britain, that loan was brokered in 1946, and it was $5 billion dollars, the final instalment was made in 2006!!. This explains why the US administration had his by the short and curlys, and none of us realised. American governments, have always interferred where they didnt belong, in the name of justice for the people, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and subsequently US military and Allied forces, (British & Australian forces, have all suffered losses in the conflicts, which were created by US interference. To be frank, i still think Meghraghi, was an innocent man, who was the fallguy, but I dont think his family went short of home comforts, unlike the people who were murdered by the bombing of the lockerbie plane. Compassion for Meghragi, what compassion was given to the victims of fliht 108? NONE

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By *ensualfire88Man
over a year ago

Edinburgh

[Removed by poster at 10/08/10 11:37:00]

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By *ensualfire88Man
over a year ago

Edinburgh

They had to release him.

His appeal was grinding it's way inexorably to court, despite having been delayed by years.

And he was going to win his appeal hands down, no question.

Was he, in some way, involved in the plot to bring down Pan Am103? Probably, yes.

Wittingly or unwittingly? We'll never know.

Was he 'the bomber'? No.

Was his imprisonment a massive miscarriage of justice. Definitely.

Anyone who wants to be bothered to actually find out what happened, and where the justice system went wrong should buy a copy of "Lockerbie, Flight from Justice" by Paul Foot - The most respected investigive journalist of his generation.

Also, listen to Jim Swire, who's daughter was killed on the flight and who has been the public face of the families and a campaigner for justice throughout.. He fully supports the prisoners release.

And to the poster above who mentioned Swire making money from media appearances - Shame on you.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"They had to release him.

His appeal was grinding it's way inexorably to court, despite having been delayed by years.

And he was going to win his appeal hands down, no question.

Was he, in some way, involved in the plot to bring down Pan Am103? Probably, yes.

Wittingly or unwittingly? We'll never know.

Was he 'the bomber'? No.

Was his imprisonment a massive miscarriage of justice. Definitely.

Also, listen to Jim Swire, who's daughter was killed on the flight and who has been the public face of the families and a campaigner for justice throughout.. He fully supports the prisoners release.

And to the poster above who mentioned Swire making money from media appearances - Shame on you.

if he was guilty then leave it to a court to prove it, after all it was a court that proved his guilt and i cant believe it was done on specualtive comments and conspircay theories...as we have been surrounded with ever since!

as i said, his innocence/guilt is irrelevent....the person that approved his release has to assume he is guilty as he was proved to be and can only make his decision based on that premise.

if i were innocent i'd still be fighting to clear my name if that was the case. i certainly would not be befriending the country that extradited me for trial knowing what my fate would be!!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

if he was guilty then leave it to a court to prove it, "

delete guilty, insert innocent!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

i dont actually think the guy done it,,,if he did then he shld have rotted in jail but very unlikely he did do it,,however i do not agree with the americans demanding an xplenation on our goverment cld you imagine us doing that to them,,,they would laugh at us???our goverment did something right or wronge they only have the scottish people to answer to no one else as per the yanks think they own the world and try to bully other countries into doing what they want to do

gggrr auds x

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By *ensualfire88Man
over a year ago

Edinburgh

if he was guilty then leave it to a court to prove it,

delete guilty, insert innocent!"

The pending appeal was going to prove, not his innocence, but that he didnt get a fair trial in the first place.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"i dont actually think the guy done it,,,if he did then he shld have rotted in jail but very unlikely he did do it,,however i do not agree with the americans demanding an xplenation on our goverment cld you imagine us doing that to them,,,they would laugh at us???our goverment did something right or wronge they only have the scottish people to answer to no one else as per the yanks think they own the world and try to bully other countries into doing what they want to do

gggrr auds x

the only reason the scots held megrahi is that it is the only way that libys would extradite him; the conditions of his release were that he was tried in neutral territory by a scottish court and that the sentence was carried out in scotland.

you cannot say that the US should not have been consulted considering their responsibility to ensure the welfare of the victims families...and the support towards the bomber by a few of their relatives does not a majority vote make!

i think everyone is looking at this as a matter of innocence, not proved and of a political wrangling between 'them and us' rather than look at this as an isolated issue.

the US have stated that had they been informed of his release, they would have pressed for him to be extradited to the US...how that would have been possible, i don't know, nor am i going to speculate...already too much of that!

however, for us to say that the US should not have been AT THE VERY LEAST kept informed of the scottish governments intentions is, at the least, negligable.

what they are actually saying is that the victims families have no right to know what is happening to the perpretator of the crime.

any other victim of a crime is advised in advance of their release, it is a common courtesy and this should be no different.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

if he was guilty then leave it to a court to prove it,

delete guilty, insert innocent!

The pending appeal was going to prove, not his innocence, but that he didnt get a fair trial in the first place.

you miss the point, the americans are arguing that they should have been advised, in advance, of his release. that is what the debate between the US and the Scottish Government is centered on.

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By *ensualfire88Man
over a year ago

Edinburgh

if he was guilty then leave it to a court to prove it,

delete guilty, insert innocent!

The pending appeal was going to prove, not his innocence, but that he didnt get a fair trial in the first place.

you miss the point, the americans are arguing that they should have been advised, in advance, of his release. that is what the debate between the US and the Scottish Government is centered on.

Correction;

Ameican SENATORS are making all the noise. Not the american Government.

The American Govt has had a bit of a grumble, for sure, but nothing more.

Dogs. Sleeping. Lie. Let.

Trust me.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

if he was guilty then leave it to a court to prove it,

delete guilty, insert innocent!

The pending appeal was going to prove, not his innocence, but that he didnt get a fair trial in the first place.

you miss the point, the americans are arguing that they should have been advised, in advance, of his release. that is what the debate between the US and the Scottish Government is centered on.

Correction;

Ameican SENATORS are making all the noise. Not the american Government.

The American Govt has had a bit of a grumble, for sure, but nothing more.

Dogs. Sleeping. Lie. Let.

Trust me."

that, like the scottish governments handling of this, is a total cop out!

obama himself even commented on this and called it an injustice, now if he doesnt speak for the american government as a whole, then i don't know who does?!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

it happens everyday? peados...murderers get relesed without their victims knowing about it? why shld this be any diffrent im not sayn that the americans families shldnt have been told im sayn that the americans cant flex their muscles and jump up and down and expect everyone to do what they say?

im not pretending to know the ins and outs right or wrong of it just dnt like bullies getn the better of things

auds x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"it happens everyday? peados...murderers get relesed without their victims knowing about it? why shld this be any diffrent im not sayn that the americans families shldnt have been told im sayn that the americans cant flex their muscles and jump up and down and expect everyone to do what they say?

im not pretending to know the ins and outs right or wrong of it just dnt like bullies getn the better of things

auds x

From the Socttish Governements Website:

4.24 The Scottish Prison Service currently operates a victim notification scheme, for victims of violent or sexual crimes whose assailant is sentenced to a custodial sentence of 4 years or more. In this case, the victim will be informed by the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service that they are eligible for inclusion in this scheme, and if they opt to receive the information, their details will be sent to the Scottish Prison Service for inclusion in the scheme's records. The scheme ensures that, when the offender is about to be released from custody, the Scottish Prison Service will so inform the victim. This ensures that the victim has appropriate information regarding the offender's incarceration status.

The Americans haven't asked why they weren't included in the decision making, but why the decision was made and the prisoner subsequently released without the courtesy of informing them. As the majority of the victims were Amercian, is this unreasonable?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

just because it says it in the rule book?? dosnt mean it always happens? alot of things can happen the victims families move ect,just have to look at the james bulger case that woman was on tv sayn she knew nothing about them? just think this will run n run ,,yes the guy got release and no he never died when he was "supposed" too.he aint ever going back to jail they would never give him back and yes i do think its terrible the way it was all delt with and yes i do beleive it was more of a political thing than a humane thing but im my heart of heart i still dont think the guy did it?

auds x

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By *ensualfire88Man
over a year ago

Edinburgh

This is international politics and diplomatic affairs at the highest level.

None of the players gives a toss about a)the public or b) the niceties of the Scottish Prison Service rules...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

None of the players gives a toss about a)the public or b) the niceties of the Scottish Prison Service rules..."

...including the scottish government.

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By *igtechMan
over a year ago

Stonehaven

I think the septics screwed him over dont think he did it and think he deserved to go home die with his family as would others if want to see conspirisy films check out the ones on you tube eye openers

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

agree all goverments dont give a toss about the real peeps?

tit for tat

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We the people of Scotland will NEVER be told the truth of the entire matter.

I personally do not think the guy was guilty.

What happened was tit for tat between the US and Libya, The plane was delayed in leaving London and should have blew up over the Atlantic.

The US is looking for retributon and as a notorious kick ass nation will not be content until the guy is dead.

Lets face it their stand on the death penalty is matched only by Iraq, Iran and China

I can remember the case in Vietnam when an American troop butchered an entire town of innocent women and children, and this from a civilised nation.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think the families have been denied true justice and have been ripped off by the scottish government by them making the decision to allow him to be freed. As we all can see he is still alive after being diagnosed with only x amount of months to live so they're should be an enquiry and questions asked why he was released.

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By *lassic1Man
over a year ago

bellshill

"We the people of Scotland will NEVER be told the truth of the entire matter.

I personally do not think the guy was guilty.

What happened was tit for tat between the US and Libya, The plane was delayed in leaving London and should have blew up over the Atlantic.

The US is looking for retributon and as a notorious kick ass nation will not be content until the guy is dead.

Lets face it their stand on the death penalty is matched only by Iraq, Iran and China

I can remember the case in Vietnam when an American troop butchered an entire town of innocent women and children, and this from a civilised nation."

I say that the recent rumblings from the U.S OF A regarding justice and judicial systems against our (Scottish) system need to remind them selves of the OJ Simson charade.

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By *omaMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

Im of the opinion that this guy was a scape goat, his family were VERY well looked after by the Lybian government in payment of him taking the rap.

The UK and Scots authorities know this but had to be seen to convict

It was a question of politics, The man was "sold" by the Lybians, they handed him over not because he done it but because they needed sanctions lifted etc. Could part of the deal be that he was released after a number of years? Could the illness be fake all along? This would give the Scots Parli an excuse to release to keep the UK/Lybian deal? The US have a damn good right to be pissed off, but its hard to imagine they weren't in on any deal too.

There are too many "holes" in the evidence to be absolutely sure who done it.

So, im convinced they got the wrong guy but the wrong guy was the best they could get.

Like everything else the truth wont be known....ever ! Certain people have made sure they look squeaky clean,too many reputations are at stake for the world to be told.

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By *acreadCouple
over a year ago

central scotland

if i were innocent i'd still be fighting to clear my name if that was the case. i certainly would not be befriending the country that extradited me for trial knowing what my fate would be!!!

Do you think after spending 10 yrs in jail and being told drop the appeal and we will free you or take your chances and maybe die in jail you would still take the latter.

I know my choice guilty or innocent would be to drop the appeal as I wouldnt take the chance in dying in a foreign country and the chance of my family maybe thousands of miles away.

And I believe strongly that he was innocent

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"obama himself even commented on this and called it an injustice, now if he doesnt speak for the american government as a whole, then i don't know who does?!"

He spoke on behalf of media grumbling purporting to represent the American people. He did so to calm people down on his side of the Atlantic. That's fairly natural posturing to appease a populace. He himself realises that this is one small component of Scotland's, and the UK's, relationship with the US, which is why he's barely said anything at all.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The American Govt has had a bit of a grumble, for sure, but nothing more.

Dogs. Sleeping. Lie. Let.

Trust me."

Agree, by a country mile.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Politicians are corrupt what's new? They are spineless people on the most part and the world is largely ruled by Corporates. There's more sleaze there than anything on Fab for sure. I doubt Magrahi did it but they had to find a scapegoat. I find it easier to accept that we (UK) have committed so many dreadful acts over even the last 10-20years that we are as bad as each other. As Burns said 'a parcel of rogues'

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