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"Aye and the numpty likes Putin this man Salmond is an arogant man who seems to think he is allways right Guess one of the reasons im voting NO in the referendun "The more he talks, the more people will see through him, hopefully. The guys's a liability!   | |||
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".....of Alex Salmond seems to know no bounds. According to his latest diatribe, all we Scots are 100% supporters of the EU. Oh yes?? I know I'm not the only one who disagrees with his arrogant assertion." Would like to read where he says 100% of scots are EU Supporters can you send me a link to this bothy | |||
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".....of Alex Salmond seems to know no bounds. According to his latest diatribe, all we Scots are 100% supporters of the EU. Oh yes?? I know I'm not the only one who disagrees with his arrogant assertion. Would like to read where he says 100% of scots are EU Supporters can you send me a link to this bothy " It's regularly found in polls that Scots are in favour of remaining in the EU 2:1, whereas in England it's 50-50 or lower. Have a look for the transcript of his speech in Bruges yesterday, Salmond mentions the disparity there amongst other things, but he's not making it up. Along similar lines, support for UKIP (who want out of the EU) is at least 16 % in England and Wales and 1 or 2 % in Scotland. | |||
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"Can't believe what I read in the papers and what I saw on the news today. Definately changing my vote to NO. " Now is that a u-turn or a flip-flop? 
Be careful what you read in the papers. They are all on one side and spin things in one direction. Just sayin'! | |||
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"Usual drivel being spouted here I see. Honestly, if you are changing your vote or voting no because of Alex Salmond, then you are missing the entire point of what is going on. Did you vote yes/yes in '97 for Donald Dewar? Look at the bigger picture for god's sake. And as mentioned, he had been selectively quoted and attacked in an attempt to discredit and distract. It's working too so expect more 'news' like this instead of the real issues. He is the only leader of a party in Scotland that doesn't have a boss in London calling the shots. He is, and always has been, only interested in Scotland. He could be sitting in the House of Lords with the rest of the them a long time ago if he had the selfishness he is accused of. Anyway, if you are voting one way or another because of one 60 odd year old who is currently the first minister, then you are narrow minded and need a wake up. " | |||
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".....of Alex Salmond seems to know no bounds. According to his latest diatribe, all we Scots are 100% supporters of the EU. Oh yes?? I know I'm not the only one who disagrees with his arrogant assertion." No you are the only one who appears to be inventing quotes though. Here is the real one. Reads a bit differently in reality. "In these circumstances, people in Scotland would almost certainly vote to stay in the EU – but the result for the UK as a whole is much more doubtful. A YouGov poll last week found that in Scotland, voters support staying in the EU by 2 to 1; elsewhere in the UK, there is almost a 50-50 split. And so because Scotland makes up just over 8% of the UK population, it is conceivable that unless we choose to change our circumstances this September, we could be dragged out of the European Union against our will." | |||
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"Vote no, that is all  "Nah  | |||
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"Just remember that our vote is not for him but for Scotland. He can be gotten rid of; we would probably never get another opportunity to become independent." Remind me never to go on xfactor and piss you off dess haha! I'd count on your vote lol | |||
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"Usual drivel being spouted here I see. Honestly, if you are changing your vote or voting no because of Alex Salmond, then you are missing the entire point of what is going on. Did you vote yes/yes in '97 for Donald Dewar? Look at the bigger picture for god's sake. And as mentioned, he had been selectively quoted and attacked in an attempt to discredit and distract. It's working too so expect more 'news' like this instead of the real issues. He is the only leader of a party in Scotland that doesn't have a boss in London calling the shots. He is, and always has been, only interested in Scotland. He could be sitting in the House of Lords with the rest of the them a long time ago if he had the selfishness he is accused of. Anyway, if you are voting one way or another because of one 60 odd year old who is currently the first minister, then you are narrow minded and need a wake up. " My apologies for having a different opinion to yours. And further apologies for 'drivelling', I just happen to have an open mind. But maybe you could answer a question for me? The SNP want independence from London, and yet if AS got his way we'd get independence one day, and the next we'd be getting ruled by a bunch of unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. Now I'm just a simple guy, but could you explain the logic in that please? And without resorting to vitriolic language please. | |||
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".....of Alex Salmond seems to know no bounds. According to his latest diatribe, all we Scots are 100% supporters of the EU. Oh yes?? I know I'm not the only one who disagrees with his arrogant assertion. Would like to read where he says 100% of scots are EU Supporters can you send me a link to this bothy " My apologies Bino, I wasn't quoting word for word, but that was the impression I got from what I heard. | |||
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"Just remember that our vote is not for him but for Scotland. He can be gotten rid of; we would probably never get another opportunity to become independent." Well said | |||
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"Usual drivel being spouted here I see. Honestly, if you are changing your vote or voting no because of Alex Salmond, then you are missing the entire point of what is going on. Did you vote yes/yes in '97 for Donald Dewar? Look at the bigger picture for god's sake. And as mentioned, he had been selectively quoted and attacked in an attempt to discredit and distract. It's working too so expect more 'news' like this instead of the real issues. He is the only leader of a party in Scotland that doesn't have a boss in London calling the shots. He is, and always has been, only interested in Scotland. He could be sitting in the House of Lords with the rest of the them a long time ago if he had the selfishness he is accused of. Anyway, if you are voting one way or another because of one 60 odd year old who is currently the first minister, then you are narrow minded and need a wake up. My apologies for having a different opinion to yours. And further apologies for 'drivelling', I just happen to have an open mind. But maybe you could answer a question for me? The SNP want independence from London, and yet if AS got his way we'd get independence one day, and the next we'd be getting ruled by a bunch of unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. Now I'm just a simple guy, but could you explain the logic in that please? And without resorting to vitriolic language please." It's not a difference of opinion I was pointing out. It was a blatant misquote. Your entire thread is based on something that never happened. It's 5 months before the most important thing this country will ever do and inaccuracies like that need to be countered. We are in the eu now. London speaks for us there. The point is to have our own voice there. If you think that being in the eu means you aren't really independent, then France isn't independent. Neither is Italy or Ireland. You get my point I'm sure. This isn't about parties or politicians. It's about ensuring that we run our own affairs and we get what we, the people, vote for as opposed to what is decided on our behalf. It's as simple as that. | |||
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"Usual drivel being spouted here I see. Honestly, if you are changing your vote or voting no because of Alex Salmond, then you are missing the entire point of what is going on. Did you vote yes/yes in '97 for Donald Dewar? Look at the bigger picture for god's sake. And as mentioned, he had been selectively quoted and attacked in an attempt to discredit and distract. It's working too so expect more 'news' like this instead of the real issues. He is the only leader of a party in Scotland that doesn't have a boss in London calling the shots. He is, and always has been, only interested in Scotland. He could be sitting in the House of Lords with the rest of the them a long time ago if he had the selfishness he is accused of. Anyway, if you are voting one way or another because of one 60 odd year old who is currently the first minister, then you are narrow minded and need a wake up. My apologies for having a different opinion to yours. And further apologies for 'drivelling', I just happen to have an open mind. But maybe you could answer a question for me? The SNP want independence from London, and yet if AS got his way we'd get independence one day, and the next we'd be getting ruled by a bunch of unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. Now I'm just a simple guy, but could you explain the logic in that please? And without resorting to vitriolic language please. It's not a difference of opinion I was pointing out. It was a blatant misquote. Your entire thread is based on something that never happened. It's 5 months before the most important thing this country will ever do and inaccuracies like that need to be countered. We are in the eu now. London speaks for us there. The point is to have our own voice there. If you think that being in the eu means you aren't really independent, then France isn't independent. Neither is Italy or Ireland. You get my point I'm sure. This isn't about parties or politicians. It's about ensuring that we run our own affairs and we get what we, the people, vote for as opposed to what is decided on our behalf. It's as simple as that. " Is it as simple as that? What about the cost of doing those things? The pensions, benefits, schools and local services. Oil and whisky isn't going to cut it! What about the impact on VAT if we become independent and join the EU ? For me there are two questions: do I want independence and do I think Scotland can be independent ? Two different answers for me (Plus I've seen AS's handy work and thinking up close and it isnt pretty and quite frankly makes me want to weep) | |||
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" Is it as simple as that? What about the cost of doing those things? The pensions, benefits, schools and local services. Oil and whisky isn't going to cut it! What about the impact on VAT if we become independent and join the EU ? For me there are two questions: do I want independence and do I think Scotland can be independent ? Two different answers for me (Plus I've seen AS's handy work and thinking up close and it isnt pretty and quite frankly makes me want to weep)" How do we pay for these things now? | |||
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"We are in the eu now. London speaks for us there. The point is to have our own voice there. If you think that being in the eu means you aren't really independent, then France isn't independent. Neither is Italy or Ireland. You get my point I'm sure. It's as simple as that. " Yes, you're perfectly correct, none of the EU countries are independent, and where has it got them? But simple? No way! | |||
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" But maybe you could answer a question for me? The SNP want independence from London, and yet if AS got his way we'd get independence one day, and the next we'd be getting ruled by a bunch of unelected bureaucrats in Brussels. Now I'm just a simple guy, but could you explain the logic in that please? And without resorting to vitriolic language please." May I? Being 'ruled by Brussels' is vitriolic nonsense for a start
The EU is a good thing to be part of. The UK is currently on the fringes of it, doesn't have a constructive voice and may well leave it. Scotland can do better! Simple...
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" Is it as simple as that? What about the cost of doing those things? The pensions, benefits, schools and local services. Oil and whisky isn't going to cut it! What about the impact on VAT if we become independent and join the EU ? For me there are two questions: do I want independence and do I think Scotland can be independent ? Two different answers for me (Plus I've seen AS's handy work and thinking up close and it isnt pretty and quite frankly makes me want to weep) How do we pay for these things now?" With the money the country is allocated from Westminster and internal revenue from council tax etc (don't start me on the CT freeze - I would rather pay couple of £ extra every month than see the impact of ongoing cuts) | |||
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" Is it as simple as that? What about the cost of doing those things? The pensions, benefits, schools and local services. Oil and whisky isn't going to cut it! What about the impact on VAT if we become independent and join the EU ? For me there are two questions: do I want independence and do I think Scotland can be independent ? Two different answers for me (Plus I've seen AS's handy work and thinking up close and it isnt pretty and quite frankly makes me want to weep) How do we pay for these things now? With the money the country is allocated from Westminster and internal revenue from council tax etc (don't start me on the CT freeze - I would rather pay couple of £ extra every month than see the impact of ongoing cuts)" I thought that too, but please do some reading up - Scotland contributes more than it gets back in block grants, far more if you include oil revenue. The potential economic success of indy Scotland isn't really in question, honestly. That's before you take off the things our money is currently spent on that we don't want, such as Trident nuclear weapons, HS2, MPs bonuses.. I'm sure there's more | |||
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" With the money the country is allocated from Westminster and internal revenue from council tax etc (don't start me on the CT freeze - I would rather pay couple of £ extra every month than see the impact of ongoing cuts)" Do you ever wonder where the 'money that is allocated from Westminster' comes from? Either we pay our own way now, therefore we can in the future, or we rely on handouts from English taxpayers. (Perhaps it is this sense of charity that the ever-so-kind Tories are so keen to hang onto). If it is the former, then we CAN be independent. If it is the latter, then isn't that quite a sad state of affairs?Is that something we should be content with? One is never more vulnerable than when we have to rely on someone else. Having looked at the official figures however, I know we are not subsidised. Have you ever stopped to wonder why Westminster are fighting with everything they have? It's not nostalgia! Why on earth would Tories want to hang onto a country that hates them and never votes for them? | |||
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".....of Alex Salmond seems to know no bounds. According to his latest diatribe, all we Scots are 100% supporters of the EU. Oh yes?? I know I'm not the only one who disagrees with his arrogant assertion. Would like to read where he says 100% of scots are EU Supporters can you send me a link to this bothy My apologies Bino, I wasn't quoting word for word, but that was the impression I got from what I heard." have to be honest bothy, what i heard is something which i have heard from people with a range of political beliefs, that in 2017 if the consensus of the population of Scotland is to remain in the EU we could find ourselves being out as a result of the voting in the remainder of the UK. I dont fancy being out in the cold due to Westminsters stiff upper lip if im honest. And considering he was speaking to students at what is probably the most pro-EU institution in existance its no surprise that he gave a pro-EU speech, as always the context in which comments are made are important in order to have understanding. | |||
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" The EU is a good thing to be part of. The UK is currently on the fringes of it, doesn't have a constructive voice and may well leave it. Scotland can do better! Simple... " I don't think many people in Greece would agree with your sentiment! | |||
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" I don't think many people in Greece would agree with your sentiment!" In what ways is Greece comparable to Scotland in terms of GDP and output? | |||
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" With the money the country is allocated from Westminster and internal revenue from council tax etc (don't start me on the CT freeze - I would rather pay couple of £ extra every month than see the impact of ongoing cuts) Do you ever wonder where the 'money that is allocated from Westminster' comes from? Either we pay our own way now, therefore we can in the future, or we rely on handouts from English taxpayers. (Perhaps it is this sense of charity that the ever-so-kind Tories are so keen to hang onto). If it is the former, then we CAN be independent. If it is the latter, then isn't that quite a sad state of affairs?Is that something we should be content with? One is never more vulnerable than when we have to rely on someone else. Having looked at the official figures however, I know we are not subsidised. Have you ever stopped to wonder why Westminster are fighting with everything they have? It's not nostalgia! Why on earth would Tories want to hang onto a country that hates them and never votes for them?" I wouldn't say they're fighting with everything they have, down south there is barely a whisper about the referendum. But I do believe as a nation we are better together - I believe in a system where everyone pays in for everyone's good. Granted I am not a fan of the current Tory Gov but I am being careful with my vote. It's a huge decision and I won't be swayed by dissatisfaction with current administration | |||
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"I can only hope that if the right decision is made and the No vote wins the day that something was written in that means the SNP are disbanded. It scares me beyond belief that this man and his party could one day be running this country. Also he's so keen to leave the union but happy to hang into the coat tail of the Commonwealth Games you surely can't have it both ways" I dunno where to start with this. Wow. | |||
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"I can only hope that if the right decision is made and the No vote wins the day that something was written in that means the SNP are disbanded. It scares me beyond belief that this man and his party could one day be running this country. Also he's so keen to leave the union but happy to hang into the coat tail of the Commonwealth Games you surely can't have it both ways I dunno where to start with this. Wow. " At the beginning is usually the best place to start! | |||
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" I wouldn't say they're fighting with everything they have, down south there is barely a whisper about the referendum. But I do believe as a nation we are better together - I believe in a system where everyone pays in for everyone's good. Granted I am not a fan of the current Tory Gov but I am being careful with my vote. It's a huge decision and I won't be swayed by dissatisfaction with current administration " You sound like someone who might just vote yes if you it into the debate a little more. So please do. They ARE fighting with everything they have. Is fairly accepted that Cameron will resign in the event of a yes. They are desperately trying to hang on to what Scotland and they are doing so for a reason. | |||
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"I can only hope that if the right decision is made and the No vote wins the day that something was written in that means the SNP are disbanded. It scares me beyond belief that this man and his party could one day be running this country. Also he's so keen to leave the union but happy to hang into the coat tail of the Commonwealth Games you surely can't have it both ways" Are you really so blinkered that you think abolition of a political party based on the outcome of a vote is a good idea, sounds like tyranny to me. Im not sure i get your final point, the commonwealth games have no bearing on uk/scottish political decisions and vice versa. | |||
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" I don't think many people in Greece would agree with your sentiment! In what ways is Greece comparable to Scotland in terms of GDP and output?" I'm no expert, and don't claim to be, and maybe there is no comparison with Greece. My understanding is that Greece should never have been allowed into the EU in the first place as it failed several of the criteria for membership. But that simply highlights the corruption at the core of the EU. | |||
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"I can only hope that if the right decision is made and the No vote wins the day that something was written in that means the SNP are disbanded. It scares me beyond belief that this man and his party could one day be running this country. Also he's so keen to leave the union but happy to hang into the coat tail of the Commonwealth Games you surely can't have it both ways I dunno where to start with this. Wow. " Say what you feel? So my opinion differs from yours so I'm automatically wrong? Why wouldn't they disband no independence means surely means no need for a national party. What has he done that makes him prove to be the right choice, he has wee man syndrome every time he opens his mouth he'd be as well sticking his foot in it. I can fight my corner so let's see you fight yours since your quick to shoot me down | |||
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" I wouldn't say they're fighting with everything they have, down south there is barely a whisper about the referendum. But I do believe as a nation we are better together - I believe in a system where everyone pays in for everyone's good. Granted I am not a fan of the current Tory Gov but I am being careful with my vote. It's a huge decision and I won't be swayed by dissatisfaction with current administration You sound like someone who might just vote yes if you it into the debate a little more. So please do. They ARE fighting with everything they have. Is fairly accepted that Cameron will resign in the event of a yes. They are desperately trying to hang on to what Scotland and they are doing so for a reason. " I've examined the debate and engaged in it. I've also seen his work and thinking in action - some of the biggest failures in management and decision making I've seen. Based on my very real experience of SNP and AS - and the white paper and the debates I've engaged in I will firmly be voting no | |||
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"i am not and i strongly want to put this point across voting no because of one man the reason im votinNO is because there are still to many grey areas and im not small minded as one person has stated on here or an idiot" Careful with that logic now mind if you don't vote yes you not a true Scot. This post is spot on in my (very humble) opinion because it's what everyone should be thinking. A yes vote fair enough means we gain our independence but there has been nothing factually to show that it is actually going to benefit us. | |||
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" With the money the country is allocated from Westminster and internal revenue from council tax etc (don't start me on the CT freeze - I would rather pay couple of £ extra every month than see the impact of ongoing cuts)" Add in single state police force, state guardians for kids, removal of corroboration (postponed to post September), centralisation of control rooms, etc. Still no proper answers on currency, pensions, research funding for higher education. When questioned on affordability of proposed benefits it's all "scaremongering". Add in the facts that post separation the proposal is for HMRC to gather tax, DVLA to issue driving licences, MI5 & MI6 to provide intelligence information. We have the Yes campaign decrying those who oppose them as "not true scots", "uncle toms", "quizlings" etc. "Doing Scotland down" is another favourite. I would possibly vote yes, if and only if, there was a fully thought through path to proper independence not the devo uber max proposed by the Snp. Please remember that the white paper is "aspirational" not fact. | |||
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" Careful with that logic now mind if you don't vote yes you not a true Scot. This post is spot on in my (very humble) opinion because it's what everyone should be thinking. A yes vote fair enough means we gain our independence but there has been nothing factually to show that it is actually going to benefit us. "What about the GERS figures which put our finances stronger than the uk? What about the democratic deficit with the single Tory mp? What about the majority of Scots opposing nuclear weapons but having the inflicted upon us at great cost? What about the majority of Scots opposing Iraq but having it inflicted upon us at great cost? What about the bedroom tax, the poll tax...etc etc etc it never ends. We are a rich country and we have 56,000 desperate people using foodbanks. We can do much better. | |||
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" With the money the country is allocated from Westminster and internal revenue from council tax etc (don't start me on the CT freeze - I would rather pay couple of £ extra every month than see the impact of ongoing cuts) Add in single state police force, state guardians for kids, removal of corroboration (postponed to post September), centralisation of control rooms, etc. Still no proper answers on currency, pensions, research funding for higher education. When questioned on affordability of proposed benefits it's all "scaremongering". Add in the facts that post separation the proposal is for HMRC to gather tax, DVLA to issue driving licences, MI5 & MI6 to provide intelligence information. We have the Yes campaign decrying those who oppose them as "not true scots", "uncle toms", "quizlings" etc. "Doing Scotland down" is another favourite. I would possibly vote yes, if and only if, there was a fully thought through path to proper independence not the devo uber max proposed by the Snp. Please remember that the white paper is "aspirational" not fact. " But you realise you are voting against independence because of the policy of one party to stay in the union and live by the policy of another. Independence is a change of the entire system to one where Scotland decides. | |||
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" Careful with that logic now mind if you don't vote yes you not a true Scot. This post is spot on in my (very humble) opinion because it's what everyone should be thinking. A yes vote fair enough means we gain our independence but there has been nothing factually to show that it is actually going to benefit us.
What about the GERS figures which put our finances stronger than the uk?
What about the democratic deficit with the single Tory mp?
What about the majority of Scots opposing nuclear weapons but having the inflicted upon us at great cost?
What about the majority of Scots opposing Iraq but having it inflicted upon us at great cost?
What about the bedroom tax, the poll tax...etc etc etc it never ends.
We are a rich country and we have 56,000 desperate people using foodbanks. We can do much better. "I'm not disputing that things on the country could be better but independence is the way to get it | |||
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"i am not and i strongly want to put this point across voting no because of one man the reason im votinNO is because there are still to many grey areas and im not small minded as one person has stated on here or an idiot" Heather, there are grey areas by staying with the union. And right now can you honestly say Scotland is running at it's full potential? Life is full of grey areas and uncertainties. This is about returning power to Scotland. Right now our vote means nothing. There are an estimated 11 million ukip voters in England. Tories are in again. Ed millband is claiming to be the solution. Boris Johnston exists. Stop the bus! | |||
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"I have not made my mind up yet but worry when AS stands in Bruge talking about Thatcher when it was his party that voted against the Labour government of the time so she was then elected !!!! I cant say that I am impressed that the number of hospital beds have fallen by 21 per cent since the SNP came to power." Alex Salmond/snp are merely the party that brought us to the point where we can debate and have a choice. After this we can vote for whoever we like. You don't turn down your dream home cos you don't like the curtains. Vote yes and redecorate the whole thing. | |||
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"I have not made my mind up yet but worry when AS stands in Bruge talking about Thatcher when it was his party that voted against the Labour government of the time so she was then elected !!!! I cant say that I am impressed that the number of hospital beds have fallen by 21 per cent since the SNP came to power. Alex Salmond/snp are merely the party that brought us to the point where we can debate and have a choice. After this we can vote for whoever we like. You don't turn down your dream home cos you don't like the curtains. Vote yes and redecorate the whole thing. " If you overstretch yourself to get that dream home you then can't afford to do the redecoration! | |||
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" With the money the country is allocated from Westminster and internal revenue from council tax etc (don't start me on the CT freeze - I would rather pay couple of £ extra every month than see the impact of ongoing cuts) Add in single state police force, state guardians for kids, removal of corroboration (postponed to post September), centralisation of control rooms, etc. Still no proper answers on currency, pensions, research funding for higher education. When questioned on affordability of proposed benefits it's all "scaremongering". Add in the facts that post separation the proposal is for HMRC to gather tax, DVLA to issue driving licences, MI5 & MI6 to provide intelligence information. We have the Yes campaign decrying those who oppose them as "not true scots", "uncle toms", "quizlings" etc. "Doing Scotland down" is another favourite. I would possibly vote yes, if and only if, there was a fully thought through path to proper independence not the devo uber max proposed by the Snp. Please remember that the white paper is "aspirational" not fact. But you realise you are voting against independence because of the policy of one party to stay in the union and live by the policy of another. Independence is a change of the entire system to one where Scotland decides. " Funny, I don't remember single state policing, state guardians in the last election manifesto '. Can we change the system to the point where every small area/street decides on every issue? Everyone has to vote or else? "Independence for Govan", "Free Benbecula from central belt hegemony!" | |||
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" If you overstretch yourself to get that dream home you then can't afford to do the redecoration! "Ha ah ye cannae beat a good bit of Scottish positivity. | |||
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" If you overstretch yourself to get that dream home you then can't afford to do the redecoration!
Ha ah ye cannae beat a good bit of Scottish positivity. "Duncan, Duncan, Duncan; as you know from the numerous threads we have both posted on in here, Scotland doesn't make enough money (even with the oil revenue) to cover what it spends and that is taken from the GERS figures you so highly rely on! So it is like getting the dream home just because you like the look of it but know deep down you can't really afford it. | |||
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"We are being asked to take a giant leap of faith when we all vote that is why I want more answers and less sound bites !!!!" I agree with you that we are being asked yo take a leap of faith in a way, but i view it not as choice in whether we jump more a question of which way. I also want more answers, not only from the snp but all of their partners in the yes campaign and from all of the partners in the no campaign. unfortunately there are some who know that giving answers would remove uncertainty and therefore wont answer, some who know that their rhetoric would show up as nonsense and there are even some who are trying to answer but are being drowned out by the negativity. I have said before and will do again, this is not a personality contest all the salmond haters and cameron haters and haters of anyone/anything else are doing nothing to help. | |||
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" With the money the country is allocated from Westminster and internal revenue from council tax etc (don't start me on the CT freeze - I would rather pay couple of £ extra every month than see the impact of ongoing cuts) Add in single state police force, state guardians for kids, removal of corroboration (postponed to post September), centralisation of control rooms, etc. Still no proper answers on currency, pensions, research funding for higher education. When questioned on affordability of proposed benefits it's all "scaremongering". Add in the facts that post separation the proposal is for HMRC to gather tax, DVLA to issue driving licences, MI5 & MI6 to provide intelligence information. We have the Yes campaign decrying those who oppose them as "not true scots", "uncle toms", "quizlings" etc. "Doing Scotland down" is another favourite. I would possibly vote yes, if and only if, there was a fully thought through path to proper independence not the devo uber max proposed by the Snp. Please remember that the white paper is "aspirational" not fact. " | |||
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" Alex Salmond/snp are merely the party that brought us to the point where we can debate and have a choice. After this we can vote for whoever we like. You don't turn down your dream home cos you don't like the curtains. Vote yes and redecorate the whole thing. " No, the Scottish electorate brought us to this point by giving the Snp a "mandate" to hold a referendum on independence. By giving the vote to 16 & 17 year old,holding the vote post Commonwealth Games, Ryder Cup, in the Year of Homecoming and on the anniversary of Bannockburn Mr Salmond has tried to tug the heart strings of the voters. I have a feeling that this vote will ultimately be decided by the 90 second nationalists, who with out stopping to weigh up the pro's and cons of both sides plonk their X in the Yes box. Mind you knowing some 16 year olds they'll think they are voting for an Xbox. | |||
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"To be honest Britain needs to stay as a whole, and get the Fuck out of the eu. Being controlled by those idiots isn't good. Telling us what we can and can't do in war for example. I remember being in iraq getting shot at and being told I couldn't fire back because it was against the law of armed conflict because he turned his back. Fuck right off the cunt just tried to kill me and my comrades and I'm being told nothing I can do about it. Also it should be up to us if we want to sentence criminals to death for example. Why shouldn't murderers, paedophile's or rapists be killed, they gave up any so called 'human rights' when they committed these horrible offences. Line them up and shoot the scum at dawn publicly, in front of their own families and the victims families. Fucking joke!!" seeing as you were in the forces you will know you are goverened by the rules of engagement i suspect you are over dramatising i served in lots of conflicts and hot spots and was always goverened by rules otherwise you would be nothing more than a gang terrorising anyone you felt needed sorted out perhaps your rules of engagement ment you couldnt fire into a population centre full of innocent folk but certainly wasnt as he turned his back | |||
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"To be honest Britain needs to stay as a whole, and get the Fuck out of the eu. Being controlled by those idiots isn't good. Telling us what we can and can't do in war for example. I remember being in iraq getting shot at and being told I couldn't fire back because it was against the law of armed conflict because he turned his back. Fuck right off the cunt just tried to kill me and my comrades and I'm being told nothing I can do about it. Also it should be up to us if we want to sentence criminals to death for example. Why shouldn't murderers, paedophile's or rapists be killed, they gave up any so called 'human rights' when they committed these horrible offences. Line them up and shoot the scum at dawn publicly, in front of their own families and the victims families. Fucking joke!!" Before i respond to your points i would like to say i have the utmost respect for anyone who is willing to put themselves in harms way to protect others. Regarding Iraq i would remind you that it was a UK government who sent you and your comrades to be shot at, and while im no expert i would have thought the rules of engagement you worked under would have been set by NATO not the EU. As far as the death penalty goes i will cite Derek Bentley as a reason to oppose it, and given that we have witnessed a willingness by a some police officers (i stress it is a small number of them) and others to lie under oath, i am not convinced that we can avoid executing innocent individuals. | |||
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"totally agree with the previous poster he was spot on, we are too damned soft in the UK, and the EU is a fekkin joke" | |||
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"To be honest Britain needs to stay as a whole, and get the Fuck out of the eu. Being controlled by those idiots isn't good. Telling us what we can and can't do in war for example. I remember being in iraq getting shot at and being told I couldn't fire back because it was against the law of armed conflict because he turned his back. Fuck right off the cunt just tried to kill me and my comrades and I'm being told nothing I can do about it. Also it should be up to us if we want to sentence criminals to death for example. Why shouldn't murderers, paedophile's or rapists be killed, they gave up any so called 'human rights' when they committed these horrible offences. Line them up and shoot the scum at dawn publicly, in front of their own families and the victims families. Fucking joke!!" Your language is totally inappropriate to this forum, you can vent your anger just as well without being offensive, and your point is irrelevant to the independence debate. | |||
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"If we vote NO the next year there will be a general election where Scotland will vote predominately for labour and England conservative. This means we will have a conservative/UKIP alliance that will take us OUT of Europe. That means that Scotland will have an unelected right wing government that brought us such delights as the bedroom tax, but this time without the constraints of European legislation on social and work conditions, and what is now a growing gap between the rich and poor will become a chasm! And Scotland will get the brunt! " Stop scaremongering. Take a good hard look at the centralisation of power in the hands of the Nationalists. Single state police force with government appointed head. Oversight committee lead buy government appointment. State guardians for our kids Pending loss of corroboration. Be afraid, be very afraid. On the word of one person, with no additional evidence you could lose your kids, be excluded from your home, be charged with a crime. Notice seen on Scottish walls circa 2020. BECOME A GOVERNMENT INFORMER. PRIZES TO BE WON. | |||
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"Aye and the numpty likes Putin this man Salmond is an arogant man who seems to think he is allways right Guess one of the reasons im voting NO in the referendun "Oops: http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/news/home-news/camerons-plea-to-putin-help-me-stop-salmond.23138182 | |||
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"You are NOT voting for Salmond. He did NOT say he admired Putin. He did NOT say all Scots want to be in the EU. Stop reading headlines and read the bloomin article. If anything a Yes vote will be the end of Alex Salmond. " I concur. | |||
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"If we vote NO the next year there will be a general election where Scotland will vote predominately for labour and England conservative. This means we will have a conservative/UKIP alliance that will take us OUT of Europe. That means that Scotland will have an unelected right wing government that brought us such delights as the bedroom tax, but this time without the constraints of European legislation on social and work conditions, and what is now a growing gap between the rich and poor will become a chasm! And Scotland will get the brunt! Stop scaremongering. Take a good hard look at the centralisation of power in the hands of the Nationalists. Single state police force with government appointed head. Oversight committee lead buy government appointment. State guardians for our kids Pending loss of corroboration. Be afraid, be very afraid. On the word of one person, with no additional evidence you could lose your kids, be excluded from your home, be charged with a crime. Notice seen on Scottish walls circa 2020. BECOME A GOVERNMENT INFORMER. PRIZES TO BE WON. " you do realise that you are telling others not to scaremonger then go on to do so yourself !! | |||
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"You are NOT voting for Salmond. He did NOT say he admired Putin. He did NOT say all Scots want to be in the EU. Stop reading headlines and read the bloomin article. If anything a Yes vote will be the end of Alex Salmond. I concur. " In or out its the end of him. All he's looking for is his page in history. And his 6 pensions | |||
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"If we vote NO the next year there will be a general election where Scotland will vote predominately for labour and England conservative. This means we will have a conservative/UKIP alliance that will take us OUT of Europe. That means that Scotland will have an unelected right wing government that brought us such delights as the bedroom tax, but this time without the constraints of European legislation on social and work conditions, and what is now a growing gap between the rich and poor will become a chasm! And Scotland will get the brunt! Stop scaremongering. Take a good hard look at the centralisation of power in the hands of the Nationalists. Single state police force with government appointed head. Oversight committee lead buy government appointment. State guardians for our kids Pending loss of corroboration. Be afraid, be very afraid. On the word of one person, with no additional evidence you could lose your kids, be excluded from your home, be charged with a crime. Notice seen on Scottish walls circa 2020. BECOME A GOVERNMENT INFORMER. PRIZES TO BE WON. you do realise that you are telling others not to scaremonger then go on to do so yourself !!" Goose- Gander. Both sides are at it. Having had previous experience of the SS and their ability pervert the truth to their own agenda, the loss of corroboration and state oversight scares the feaces out of me. | |||
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"So far the people on here have compared Salmond to Kim Jung, the SS, and condoning peodophiles while accusing people of scaremongering! How about putting forward a reasoned argument.. For instance, for 24 of the last 35 years Scotland has been given a government it voted against! If the whole depth of your argument is that you hate Salmond then vote yes! Because then he will retire! " The SS I am referring to are Social Services. AS's goose is cooked no matter the way the vote goes. The level of debate sucks - both sides are name calling and avoiding anything like a real fact. Until that changes, and both sides grow up and come out of the playground this debate is worthless. Please remember the Scottish Government's white paper is not gospel truth, it's äsperational. In other words a great big wish list. With Staying together comes a cost - this should be out lined fully With Falling apart also comes a cost - this too should be outlined fully. To this point NEITHER side has properly outlined these costs. | |||
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"Usual drivel being spouted here I see. Honestly, if you are changing your vote or voting no because of Alex Salmond, then you are missing the entire point of what is going on. Did you vote yes/yes in '97 for Donald Dewar? Look at the bigger picture for god's sake. And as mentioned, he had been selectively quoted and attacked in an attempt to discredit and distract. It's working too so expect more 'news' like this instead of the real issues. He is the only leader of a party in Scotland that doesn't have a boss in London calling the shots. He is, and always has been, only interested in Scotland. He could be sitting in the House of Lords with the rest of the them a long time ago if he had the selfishness he is accused of. Anyway, if you are voting one way or another because of one 60 odd year old who is currently the first minister, then you are narrow minded and need a wake up." Exactly. the point I seem to spend days on end explaining to people.. its a vote for the independence of this country. a chance for her to make the decisions that benefit our own people instead of Westminster. it is NOT an Alex Salmond popularity contest. get over the narrow minded attitude and focus on the big picture. please. | |||
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"Aye and the numpty likes Putin this man Salmond is an arogant man who seems to think he is allways right Guess one of the reasons im voting NO in the referendun
Oops:
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"Usual drivel being spouted here I see. Honestly, if you are changing your vote or voting no because of Alex Salmond, then you are missing the entire point of what is going on. Did you vote yes/yes in '97 for Donald Dewar? Look at the bigger picture for god's sake. And as mentioned, he had been selectively quoted and attacked in an attempt to discredit and distract. It's working too so expect more 'news' like this instead of the real issues. He is the only leader of a party in Scotland that doesn't have a boss in London calling the shots. He is, and always has been, only interested in Scotland. He could be sitting in the House of Lords with the rest of the them a long time ago if he had the selfishness he is accused of. Anyway, if you are voting one way or another because of one 60 odd year old who is currently the first minister, then you are narrow minded and need a wake up. Exactly. the point I seem to spend days on end explaining to people.. its a vote for the independence of this country. a chance for her to make the decisions that benefit our own people instead of Westminster. it is NOT an Alex Salmond popularity contest. get over the narrow minded attitude and focus on the big picture. please. " Well said, whether we like Alex Salmond personally or not is completely irrelevant.... it's not about Alex Salmond.... but, he is the only party leader who can give us the opportunity to break away from the corrupt, south-biased Westminster rule we are now totally exposed to. The Westminster parties simply cannot accept that we Jocks might have the cheek to think for ourselves.... no, they want to continue doing our thinking for us.... and sucking the profits and taxes from our industries directly into the London coffers..... Their only tactic is fear... fear that we can't survive without mama westminster's guiding influence..... and the usual lies about how Scotland is subsidised by Westminster.... Well, the only question for me is..... if Scotland is such a drain on the uk finances, why oh why are the westminster parties so desparately keen to prevent independance... why would they want to keep this sinking ship afloat...? Because in reality this sinking ship is actually keeping the uk afloat, and without Scotland the uk is sunk.... and they know it..! | |||
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"Until I hear concrete answers to the many questions I had then I'm in the no camp. I take voting fairly serious unlike a lot of my friends and really look into what everyones saying and decide which camp I'm in. Its up to the yes campaign to convince me but so far there no where near it" i never actually vote why makes no odds partys are so tight they are almost the same partys anyway but main reason for abstinance is makes no diffrence all politicians are the same money grabbing care not about the country idiots with no idea about what actually happens outside silver spoon land though the independance vote is one i will be voting a firm no on or devomax if still on the table which seems to have been forgotten about | |||
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"If we vote NO the next year there will be a general election where Scotland will vote predominately for labour and England conservative. This means we will have a conservative/UKIP alliance that will take us OUT of Europe. That means that Scotland will have an unelected right wing government that brought us such delights as the bedroom tax, but this time without the constraints of European legislation on social and work conditions, and what is now a growing gap between the rich and poor will become a chasm! And Scotland will get the brunt! " Maybe Scotland should come to it's senses and vote Conservative then? Just a thought! | |||
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" Stop scaremongering. Take a good hard look at the centralisation of power in the hands of the Nationalists. Single state police force with government appointed head. Oversight committee lead buy government appointment. State guardians for our kids Pending loss of corroboration. Be afraid, be very afraid. On the word of one person, with no additional evidence you could lose your kids, be excluded from your home, be charged with a crime. Notice seen on Scottish walls circa 2020. BECOME A GOVERNMENT INFORMER. PRIZES TO BE WON. " Oh dear, have you got your hard hat on? But I agree with you! | |||
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"You are NOT voting for Salmond. He did NOT say he admired Putin. He did NOT say all Scots want to be in the EU. Stop reading headlines and read the bloomin article. If anything a Yes vote will be the end of Alex Salmond. " Yeah, and we'll be landed with Labour again, and run into the ground again! A scroungers paradise! | |||
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" Duncan, Duncan, Duncan; as you know from the numerous threads we have both posted on in here, Scotland doesn't make enough money (even with the oil revenue) to cover what it spends and that is taken from the GERS figures you so highly rely on! So it is like getting the dream home just because you like the look of it but know deep down you can't really afford it. "I'm not sure if you genuinely believe this means we can't afford independence or if you are just winding me up. I guess you know, because we've been over this before, that our deficit is a lot smaller than the uk's. Our finances, compared to the UK are better. We run a deficit but so does every other country in Europe. I don't get why you keep saying we don't break even so we can't be independent. Have a look at the Ivan mckee's video on the economic case for independence. Let me know what you think. As I've said before, even if we were subsidised by the English taxpayer as you appear to believe, isn't that a pretty terrible state of affairs? If it's the case, why don't the Tories just let us go and put their feet up knowing that a few million left of centre voting Scots just dropped out the equation? | |||
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"Until I hear concrete answers to the many questions I had then I'm in the no camp. I take voting fairly serious unlike a lot of my friends and really look into what everyones saying and decide which camp I'm in. Its up to the yes campaign to convince me but so far there no where near it" There are meetings almost every night around Scotland from local yes groups. I'd advise vistiting one near you are asking the questions you want answered. Email them too. If you have an open mind and taking the vote seriously then doing this is a must over the few months. | |||
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"born in Britain, grew up in Britain. That makes me British. A yes vote means losing my nationality I'm voting no. " Britain is a political construct that no longer serves its purpose. You could as easily, and with as much validity, say that you were born in Europe and a yes vote would have as much effect on that perception of self as it would upon being 'British'. Since, to the rest of the world 'British' and 'English' are synonyms,and I include most of our English cousins in that perception, do you actually see yourself as English? that's how the world sees you when you say that. Besides, this vote is about the dissolution of the Union of Parliaments, so the United Kingdom will continue until, and if, we decide to get rid of the monarchy, too. To the OP, so Alex Salmond has said that he admires SOME aspects of the way Putin has rekindled a sense of national identity in Russia. Big whoop. He wasn't the one asking Putin to interfere in the internal politics of this country, was he? That was David Cameron. | |||
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"If Scotland goes independent does that mean we will all get a lifetime supply of free porridge oats? "Not sure but if we vote No Cameron plans to turn us all into Haggis Hunters. Do a you tube search for westminsters lament. | |||
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"born in Britain, grew up in Britain. That makes me British. A yes vote means losing my nationality I'm voting no. " Sorry but this is blind nationalism. Can you imagine if I came on here saying I am voting yes because I am Scottish? Your nationality is your own and you can be whatever you like under independence. You need to think a little bigger. | |||
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" Duncan, Duncan, Duncan; as you know from the numerous threads we have both posted on in here, Scotland doesn't make enough money (even with the oil revenue) to cover what it spends and that is taken from the GERS figures you so highly rely on! So it is like getting the dream home just because you like the look of it but know deep down you can't really afford it.
I'm not sure if you genuinely believe this means we can't afford independence or if you are just winding me up.
I guess you know, because we've been over this before, that our deficit is a lot smaller than the uk's. Our finances, compared to the UK are better.
We run a deficit but so does every other country in Europe. I don't get why you keep saying we don't break even so we can't be independent.
Have a look at the Ivan mckee's video on the economic case for independence. Let me know what you think.
As I've said before, even if we were subsidised by the English taxpayer as you appear to believe, isn't that a pretty terrible state of affairs? If it's the case, why don't the Tories just let us go and put their feet up knowing that a few million left of centre voting Scots just dropped out the equation?"What gets me is that until it is pointed out by me and others on these threads, you and others in the yes camp state that we send more money down to England than we need to spend up in Scotland to keep it running i.e. if we kept all the money we take in with taxes, oil revenue, etc. we would have enough to cover our expenses; we don't and that is just a fact. Once that is pointed out, you and others, change it to; oh well we would be better off not being able to afford things on our own! It's a simple case of more yes voters stating things that are not quite true! | |||
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" you and others in the yes camp state that we send more money down to England than we need to spend up in Scotland to keep it running i.e. if we kept all the money we take in with taxes, oil revenue, etc. we would have enough to cover our expenses; we don't and that is just a fact. " Point out anywhere where I've stated that. I've always said 'our finances are stronger' or 'we are a richer country'. I've never said we will be deficit/debt free. The fact is what we can afford now, we can also afford in an independent Scotland. What I'm hearing is 'how can we pay for this, that and the other.' We can afford it now, we can afford it post independence. | |||
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"Stop taking the media sound bites as Gospel. do some reading & research, then if your IQ is above 6 you'll vote YES" if your IQ is above 6 you would know that statements which indicate that intelligence is to be associated with one side or the other of the debate do nobody any good, and only serve to distract people from discussing the issues involved | |||
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" you and others in the yes camp state that we send more money down to England than we need to spend up in Scotland to keep it running i.e. if we kept all the money we take in with taxes, oil revenue, etc. we would have enough to cover our expenses; we don't and that is just a fact. Point out anywhere where I've stated that. I've always said 'our finances are stronger' or 'we are a richer country'. I've never said we will be deficit/debt free. The fact is what we can afford now, we can also afford in an independent Scotland. What I'm hearing is 'how can we pay for this, that and the other.' We can afford it now, we can afford it post independence. " I would direct you back to all of the other threads you've posted on this subject and you'll find it in them in one form or another!
Truth from both sides of the argument would actually be a refreshing change in this debate (not meaning just on here) but that will never happen... aw well never mind, it'll be a narrow victory for the NO side anyway! | |||
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"Usual drivel being spouted here I see. Honestly, if you are changing your vote or voting no because of Alex Salmond, then you are missing the entire point of what is going on. Did you vote yes/yes in '97 for Donald Dewar? Look at the bigger picture for god's sake. And as mentioned, he had been selectively quoted and attacked in an attempt to discredit and distract. It's working too so expect more 'news' like this instead of the real issues. He is the only leader of a party in Scotland that doesn't have a boss in London calling the shots. He is, and always has been, only interested in Scotland. He could be sitting in the House of Lords with the rest of the them a long time ago if he had the selfishness he is accused of. Anyway, if you are voting one way or another because of one 60 odd year old who is currently the first minister, then you are narrow minded and need a wake up. " | |||
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"born in Britain, grew up in Britain. That makes me British. A yes vote means losing my nationality I'm voting no. " IMHO... British is not a nationality... British describes a resident of the island of Britain... so regardless of the outcome of the referendum your nationality will not change. There is no British nation or nationality, in the same way that there is no British law, no British language, no British church or religion, no British education system etc, etc,..... | |||
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"Usual drivel being spouted here I see. Honestly, if you are changing your vote or voting no because of Alex Salmond, then you are missing the entire point of what is going on. Did you vote yes/yes in '97 for Donald Dewar? Look at the bigger picture for god's sake. And as mentioned, he had been selectively quoted and attacked in an attempt to discredit and distract. It's working too so expect more 'news' like this instead of the real issues. He is the only leader of a party in Scotland that doesn't have a boss in London calling the shots. He is, and always has been, only interested in Scotland. He could be sitting in the House of Lords with the rest of the them a long time ago if he had the selfishness he is accused of. Anyway, if you are voting one way or another because of one 60 odd year old who is currently the first minister, then you are narrow minded and need a wake up. " Narrow minded? Wow, thats pretty insulting to intelligent masses on here! Interesting you bring this up because, if its not about Alex Salmond and the SNP then why is he making about George Osbourne, David Cameron, the Tory Party and everyone else he considers to be against Scotland? If this is such a positive move, why isn't he concentrating on giving people the specific details of how good life will be if we go with him on this monumental journey? Why won't he take the moral high ground and quit the personal attacks on the MP's down south and prove his only interest is in working hard on behalf of the Scottish people and not in points-scoring against the Scottish MP's? Because it's not in his nature, thats why! I'm fed up of people saying this decision should be based on the best interest of Scotland alone and not on Alex Salmond. I do agree it should however the simple fact is, thats too easy a get-out for the Nats. Alex Salmond is selling Scotland the concept of Independence and everyone knows, people buy from people and as it's him doing the selling, people aren't convinced by anything he or Sturgeon has to say and therefor don't believe Independence will work for Scotland. Salmond, as a personality, and the whole debate are inexorably linked so to believe people will be able to vote on one without considering the other shows a fair amount of naivety. Also worth having a look at Danny Alexander's Independence myth-debunking speech earlier on today. Once again showing that Salmonds 'It'll a' be fine, just trust me' indy manifesto is farcically far off base! www.gov.uk/government/speeches/danny-alexander-on-scottish-referendum-myths | |||
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" I would direct you back to all of the other threads you've posted on this subject and you'll find it in them in one form or another!
Truth from both sides of the argument would actually be a refreshing change in this debate (not meaning just on here) but that will never happen... aw well never mind, it'll be a narrow victory for the NO side anyway! "I don't need to look back to know I have never stated what you said. I've been consistent. Scotland's finances are stronger than the rUK. We pay our way at the moment. If we can afford to live now, we can afford to live post independence. Can you let me know what you think of the video I suggested? Also, what do you think of the fact that, if those who say we can't afford it are right, and we are subsidised, this is somehow an acceptable way to live and we should all be happy having to rely on handouts. Don't you agree that if you personally lost your independence and had to rely on others, that you would become vulnerable? Either way, doesn't bringing 100% of decision making to Scotland make sense? | |||
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" Narrow minded? Wow, thats pretty insulting to intelligent masses on here! Interesting you bring this up because, if its not about Alex Salmond and the SNP then why is he making about George Osbourne, David Cameron, the Tory Party and everyone else he considers to be against Scotland? If this is such a positive move, why isn't he concentrating on giving people the specific details of how good life will be if we go with him on this monumental journey? Why won't he take the moral high ground and quit the personal attacks on the MP's down south and prove his only interest is in working hard on behalf of the Scottish people and not in points-scoring against the Scottish MP's? Because it's not in his nature, thats why! I'm fed up of people saying this decision should be based on the best interest of Scotland alone and not on Alex Salmond. I do agree it should however the simple fact is, thats too easy a get-out for the Nats. Alex Salmond is selling Scotland the concept of Independence and everyone knows, people buy from people and as it's him doing the selling, people aren't convinced by anything he or Sturgeon has to say and therefor don't believe Independence will work for Scotland. Salmond, as a personality, and the whole debate are inexorably linked so to believe people will be able to vote on one without considering the other shows a fair amount of naivety. Also worth having a look at Danny Alexander's Independence myth-debunking speech earlier on today. Once again showing that Salmonds 'It'll a' be fine, just trust me' indy manifesto is farcically far off base! " Sorry if you feel insulted. I stand by it though. Anyone who says 'I'm voting no cos I don't like that Salmond' is narrow-minded in my opinion. Incidentally, I don't think anyone is making it about the Tories. Labour have utterly lost their way of late. If you think they are a party who still represent the working class then go and ask how they feel about trident renewal or why they abstained on the bedroom tax vote or how they feel about university fees. Scottish labour will be reborn under independence as they will no longer have a London boss. This debate is about choice. We could be taken out of the eu against our will or asked to pay for weapons we don't need simply because we can't say no. By the way, you've said that Salmond his telling is that everything will be fine and trust me etc etc. He is not. As many 'intelligent masses' have pointed out here and elsewhere, people need to stop believing the sound bites and the headlines. No one is saying this will be easy. The point is - it isn't easy now. I've heard this 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' mentatlity before and it's baffling. £1.5 trillion in debt sounds broke to me. 1 in 4 kids in poverty in a rich country sounds broke to me. Like I say, narrow-minded. | |||
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" Narrow minded? Wow, thats pretty insulting to intelligent masses on here! Interesting you bring this up because, if its not about Alex Salmond and the SNP then why is he making about George Osbourne, David Cameron, the Tory Party and everyone else he considers to be against Scotland? If this is such a positive move, why isn't he concentrating on giving people the specific details of how good life will be if we go with him on this monumental journey? Why won't he take the moral high ground and quit the personal attacks on the MP's down south and prove his only interest is in working hard on behalf of the Scottish people and not in points-scoring against the Scottish MP's? Because it's not in his nature, thats why! I'm fed up of people saying this decision should be based on the best interest of Scotland alone and not on Alex Salmond. I do agree it should however the simple fact is, thats too easy a get-out for the Nats. Alex Salmond is selling Scotland the concept of Independence and everyone knows, people buy from people and as it's him doing the selling, people aren't convinced by anything he or Sturgeon has to say and therefor don't believe Independence will work for Scotland. Salmond, as a personality, and the whole debate are inexorably linked so to believe people will be able to vote on one without considering the other shows a fair amount of naivety. Also worth having a look at Danny Alexander's Independence myth-debunking speech earlier on today. Once again showing that Salmonds 'It'll a' be fine, just trust me' indy manifesto is farcically far off base! Sorry if you feel insulted. I stand by it though. Anyone who says 'I'm voting no cos I don't like that Salmond' is narrow-minded in my opinion. Incidentally, I don't think anyone is making it about the Tories. Labour have utterly lost their way of late. If you think they are a party who still represent the working class then go and ask how they feel about trident renewal or why they abstained on the bedroom tax vote or how they feel about university fees. Scottish labour will be reborn under independence as they will no longer have a London boss. This debate is about choice. We could be taken out of the eu against our will or asked to pay for weapons we don't need simply because we can't say no. By the way, you've said that Salmond his telling is that everything will be fine and trust me etc etc. He is not. As many 'intelligent masses' have pointed out here and elsewhere, people need to stop believing the sound bites and the headlines. No one is saying this will be easy. The point is - it isn't easy now. I've heard this 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' mentatlity before and it's baffling. £1.5 trillion in debt sounds broke to me. 1 in 4 kids in poverty in a rich country sounds broke to me. Like I say, narrow-minded. " However, believing that an independent Scotland will be a garden of roses, a bastion of economic integrity, civil rights, European integration and a model for the rest of the UK isn't naïve Aye Right | |||
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"This debate is about choice." And there we have it. It's about choice so calling people narrow minded just cause they're choosing to vote no for whatever reason is down right insulting to be honest. I don't get involved in politics because yes people have their opinions but insulting others because they don't agree with you is just plain rude and childish. I'm voting no because its my choice, why I'm voting no is kept between me and myself. I know this is a 'debate' thread but come on dude, no need to start name calling.  | |||
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"This debate is about choice. And there we have it. It's about choice so calling people narrow minded just cause they're choosing to vote no for whatever reason is down right insulting to be honest. I don't get involved in politics because yes people have their opinions but insulting others because they don't agree with you is just plain rude and childish. I'm voting no because its my choice, why I'm voting no is kept between me and myself. I know this is a 'debate' thread but come on dude, no need to start name calling. "I didn't say anyone voting no was narrow-minded. | |||
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" However, believing that an independent Scotland will be a garden of roses, a bastion of economic integrity, civil rights, European integration and a model for the rest of the UK isn't naïve Aye Right" You know you have responded to a post which says 'no one is saying this will be easy,' don't you? It's just that your response says 'so it's going to be a garden of roses, is it?' | |||
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"This debate is about choice. And there we have it. It's about choice so calling people narrow minded just cause they're choosing to vote no for whatever reason is down right insulting to be honest. I don't get involved in politics because yes people have their opinions but insulting others because they don't agree with you is just plain rude and childish. I'm voting no because its my choice, why I'm voting no is kept between me and myself. I know this is a 'debate' thread but come on dude, no need to start name calling.
I didn't say anyone voting no was narrow-minded."And that's why I said 'whatever reason' yours being those voting because of Salmond. Answer for everything you like. I'm no starting, done talking | |||
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"....... the reds are coming to invade Scotland so stay with the devil you know." Given Salmond's admiration for Putin, the Reds may be being invited. | |||
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"bino, as far as I can make out the no camp have nothing to discuss other than, I'm not voting for Alex Salmond, I'm not voting for Nicola Sturgeon, we won't be able to keep ourselves....the other day a newspaper said, Russian aircraft in Scottish air space, then as I read on it was ALMOST in UK air space, then it was in international air space at all times, Oh & nothing like this has ever happened before, I worked in the construction game, when I worked at Torness power stn every Wednesday lunchtime a large plane they called the brown bear flew over us taking photo's of the station & 2 fighter jets would appear & lead it back out to sea but don't let that get in the way of the frighten together brigade, the reds are coming to invade Scotland so stay with the devil you know." and your telling me all this because ? ....... | |||
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"....... the reds are coming to invade Scotland so stay with the devil you know. Given Salmond's admiration for Putin, the Reds may be being invited." You realise that David Cameron had his embassy petition Putin to intervene in Scottish independence, don't you? What do you think about that? | |||
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"Just remember that our vote is not for him but for Scotland. He can be gotten rid of; we would probably never get another opportunity to become independent." Well. Said he not stay long after vote folk need look out the box!!!! | |||
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"as regards voting or not voting, there's not a hope in hell of me voting for the snp, while you have dum and dummer in it's ranks- salmond and sturgeon, who has been in the press before, speaking up in court for a twice-convicted benefit fraudster- doesn't say much for a political party, with Salmond in charge and his deputy Nicola Sturgeon who chose to speak up in court for someone so crooked as to stick two fingers up to the law, not once but twice!!!" Erm, have you read the thread? Do you know what it's about? Do you know what the referendum is about? It's really important. Happening in September. You should get involved. | |||
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"I have read the post thanks!!!! My points are relevant, because to make an informed choice of a yes or no vote, you have too trust the party who are heading the independence campaign, frankly I question Salmonds and Sturgeons ability as politicians to do right by Scotland " Jeeeeeeeeeeeeesus!!! It's NOT about them. How hard is that to grasp. They're merely in power now. | |||
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"Can't believe what I read in the papers and what I saw on the news today. Definately changing my vote to NO. The man is a total idiot" What I can't believe is that there are still people stupid enough to think they're still voting for Alec Salmond when they should be basing their vote on whether or not they want Scotland to be independant. What Salmond means to you should be irrelevant. | |||
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"Can't believe what I read in the papers and what I saw on the news today. Definately changing my vote to NO. The man is a total idiot What I can't believe is that there are still people stupid enough to think they're still voting for Alec Salmond when they should be basing their vote on whether or not they want Scotland to be independant. What Salmond means to you should be irrelevant." They walk amongst us | |||
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" I would direct you back to all of the other threads you've posted on this subject and you'll find it in them in one form or another!
Truth from both sides of the argument would actually be a refreshing change in this debate (not meaning just on here) but that will never happen... aw well never mind, it'll be a narrow victory for the NO side anyway!
I don't need to look back to know I have never stated what you said. I've been consistent.
Scotland's finances are stronger than the rUK.
We pay our way at the moment. If we can afford to live now, we can afford to live post independence.
Can you let me know what you think of the video I suggested? Also, what do you think of the fact that, if those who say we can't afford it are right, and we are subsidised, this is somehow an acceptable way to live and we should all be happy having to rely on handouts. Don't you agree that if you personally lost your independence and had to rely on others, that you would become vulnerable?
Either way, doesn't bringing 100% of decision making to Scotland make sense? "TBH I didn't watch the video you suggested as I've fell into that trap before and wasted my time watching drivel - so sorry I won't be watching it! As said before - both sides can twist anything to suit their own position and a wee bit of truth from YES & NO would be a refreshing change!
PS - You're a Yes man, I'm NO and you're not gonna change my mind by asking me to watch online videos - unless they involve a couple of naked women that is! | |||
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"I have read the post thanks!!!! My points are relevant, because to make an informed choice of a yes or no vote, you have too trust the party who are heading the independence campaign, frankly I question Salmonds and Sturgeons ability as politicians to do right by Scotland Jeeeeeeeeeeeeesus!!! It's NOT about them. How hard is that to grasp. They're merely in power now. " | |||
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"Can't believe what I read in the papers and what I saw on the news today. Definately changing my vote to NO. The man is a total idiot What I can't believe is that there are still people stupid enough to think they're still voting for Alec Salmond when they should be basing their vote on whether or not they want Scotland to be independant. What Salmond means to you should be irrelevant." | |||
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"PS - You're a Yes man, I'm NO and you're not gonna change my mind by asking me to watch online videos - unless they involve a couple of naked women that is! "What he said. Some of us are no, some of us are yes. Those, like me, voting no aren't all voting because they don't like a certain person. I'm voting no for my own reasons, I just don't have enough information to want to vote yes and before anyone says, yes I have done my research. I also think its unfair that those who live abroad yet own property here, pay council tax etc have no say on their future cause they're not allowed to vote?! I think its a stupid idea but hey that's me, my view and I'm not about to sprout shite to people to change theirs, its all our own choices and my choice is no | |||
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"PS - You're a Yes man, I'm NO and you're not gonna change my mind by asking me to watch online videos - unless they involve a couple of naked women that is!
What he said. Some of us are no, some of us are yes. Those, like me, voting no aren't all voting because they don't like a certain person. I'm voting no for my own reasons, I just don't have enough information to want to vote yes and before anyone says, yes I have done my research. I also think its unfair that those who live abroad yet own property here, pay council tax etc have no say on their future cause they're not allowed to vote?! I think its a stupid idea but hey that's me, my view and I'm not about to sprout shite to people to change theirs, its all our own choices and my choice is no "hear hear | |||
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".....of Alex Salmond seems to know no bounds. According to his latest diatribe, all we Scots are 100% supporters of the EU. Oh yes?? I know I'm not the only one who disagrees with his arrogant assertion." But let's not overlook the real breathtaking arrogance..... the Wesminster politicians who have popped up north of the border... one by one... to preach to us about the doom and gloom ahead if Scotland should vote Yes... and then disappear ..... They know full well that the rest of the uk is well and truly f**ked without Scotlands input.... but they don't dare admit it. They'd simply prefer to keep feeding us the myth that we can't survive without Westminster government..... What is really breathtaking is that we've believed that fairytale for so long..... | |||
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"I have read the post thanks!!!! My points are relevant, because to make an informed choice of a yes or no vote, you have too trust the party who are heading the independence campaign, frankly I question Salmonds and Sturgeons ability as politicians to do right by Scotland Jeeeeeeeeeeeeesus!!! It's NOT about them. How hard is that to grasp. They're merely in power now. " Ok, so it's not about AS, NS and co, it's about independence. So, along with discounting the personalities, do we discount what they're telling us too? And if that's what you're suggesting, who is informing us as to the benefits of being independent? So ignore AS and his merry mob, just vote for independence anyway? | |||
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".....of Alex Salmond seems to know no bounds. According to his latest diatribe, all we Scots are 100% supporters of the EU. Oh yes?? I know I'm not the only one who disagrees with his arrogant assertion. But let's not overlook the real breathtaking arrogance..... the Wesminster politicians who have popped up north of the border... one by one... to preach to us about the doom and gloom ahead if Scotland should vote Yes... and then disappear ..... They know full well that the rest of the uk is well and truly f**ked without Scotlands input.... but they don't dare admit it. They'd simply prefer to keep feeding us the myth that we can't survive without Westminster government..... What is really breathtaking is that we've believed that fairytale for so long..... " | |||
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"We both consider ourselves working class (if there is such a thing) and have a decent lifestyle, own our home, holidays etc etc. Things we have worked for. This has all happened under vaious UK governments and is likely to continue so we don't have an issue with things as they stand. We're not going to risk any of that by voting for the uncertainty of independence. Also, to those saying it's not about Salmond or the SNP that may be the case if you are voting for independence solely because you believe we shouldn't having anything to do with Westminster. If you are instead voting for economic reasons etc then it is about Salmond and the SNP as they are the ones making all the promises. The other parties, long with various experts, are disputing the figures involved and the ability to deliver these promises. So it would be strange to vote yes based on all these promises and then vote in a Labour government post independence and have them turn round and say 'Well of course we can't keep them, we've already told you they were pie in the sky' Finally, we agree with many of the points made by Jane D. In particular the SNP have had a council tax freeze for a number of years that is wreaking havoc with the finances of local government and in particular the care of the elderly in the community." Well put! | |||
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"We both consider ourselves working class (if there is such a thing) and have a decent lifestyle, own our home, holidays etc etc. Things we have worked for. This has all happened under vaious UK governments and is likely to continue so we don't have an issue with things as they stand. We're not going to risk any of that by voting for the uncertainty of independence. Also, to those saying it's not about Salmond or the SNP that may be the case if you are voting for independence solely because you believe we shouldn't having anything to do with Westminster. If you are instead voting for economic reasons etc then it is about Salmond and the SNP as they are the ones making all the promises. The other parties, long with various experts, are disputing the figures involved and the ability to deliver these promises. So it would be strange to vote yes based on all these promises and then vote in a Labour government post independence and have them turn round and say 'Well of course we can't keep them, we've already told you they were pie in the sky' Finally, we agree with many of the points made by Jane D. In particular the SNP have had a council tax freeze for a number of years that is wreaking havoc with the finances of local government and in particular the care of the elderly in the community. Well put!" ------------------------------------- ... "likely to continue"..? While it is completely understandable that you may not want to 'risk' your present lifestyle for the uncertainty of independence...... how can you be so certain that your present lifestyle "is likely to continue" as you put it....? (in your 3rd sentence). There are risks and uncertainties with any government... and all David Cameron can say is that he may have some nice surprises for us if we vote no...... but he won't say what these surprises are... ..hmmm isn't that 'uncertainty'..?? Your optimism is admirable,,, but the No campaign is asking us to vote no while offering us absolutely nothing in return.... except uncertainty....  | |||
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" Your optimism is admirable,,, but the No campaign is asking us to vote no while offering us absolutely nothing in return.... except uncertainty.... "I'm sorry, but I have to laugh at your assertion that the 'No' campaign is offering uncertainty, your suggestion then being that the 'Yes' campaign is offering certainty. Care to tell me exactly what certainty the SNP is offering? That's the big issue re the 'Yes' campaign, it's all rhetoric!! Give me some facts!! | |||
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" ... "likely to continue"..? While it is completely understandable that you may not want to 'risk' your present lifestyle for the uncertainty of independence...... how can you be so certain that your present lifestyle "is likely to continue" as you put it....? (in your 3rd sentence). There are risks and uncertainties with any government... and all David Cameron can say is that he may have some nice surprises for us if we vote no...... but he won't say what these surprises are... ..hmmm isn't that 'uncertainty'..?? Your optimism is admirable,,, but the No campaign is asking us to vote no while offering us absolutely nothing in return.... except uncertainty.... "Experience tells us it's likely to continue for us, given it has for many years now and we've come through the worst recession in living history. You are saying the No campaign is offering nothing in return. Well we're quite happy with things as they are (compared to the unknown). We're not expecting them to suddenly start throwing a lot of bribes at us about how wonderful everything will be etc etc. | |||
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"It Eck thinks we're 'a nation of d*unks'. ALEX Salmond came under fire last night after appearing to characterise Scotland as a “nation of d*unks”" 1st thing he has ever said that I agree with. | |||
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" Your optimism is admirable,,, but the No campaign is asking us to vote no while offering us absolutely nothing in return.... except uncertainty....
I'm sorry, but I have to laugh at your assertion that the 'No' campaign is offering uncertainty, your suggestion then being that the 'Yes' campaign is offering certainty.
" I laughed too | |||
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" Your optimism is admirable,,, but the No campaign is asking us to vote no while offering us absolutely nothing in return.... except uncertainty....
I'm sorry, but I have to laugh at your assertion that the 'No' campaign is offering uncertainty, your suggestion then being that the 'Yes' campaign is offering certainty.
Care to tell me exactly what certainty the SNP is offering? That's the big issue re the 'Yes' campaign, it's all rhetoric!! Give me some facts!! "I see no assertion of any certainties given by the yes campaign. The poster actually stated that "there are risks and uncertainties with any government" | |||
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"There are no issues to discuss with the no camp as far as I see, other than they think they're in a seafood bar, it's.................................. a don't like Salmon................... a don't like Sturgeon Hence the IQ of 6 theory, Alex Salmond himself said the vote is not about him or Nicola Sturgeon, thousands of us bang on about this on a daily basis to the No camp who sit looking like Homer Simpson (Mmmm beer) then say but I don't like Salmon so I'm voting no " given that you post nonsense like this, i am left assuming that your IQ is somewhere in the range of 1 -5 | |||
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" Your optimism is admirable,,, but the No campaign is asking us to vote no while offering us absolutely nothing in return.... except uncertainty....
I'm sorry, but I have to laugh at your assertion that the 'No' campaign is offering uncertainty, your suggestion then being that the 'Yes' campaign is offering certainty.
Care to tell me exactly what certainty the SNP is offering? That's the big issue re the 'Yes' campaign, it's all rhetoric!! Give me some facts!!
I see no assertion of any certainties given by the yes campaign.
The poster actually stated that "there are risks and uncertainties with any government"
"Ahhh.........so we're to vote for the unknown?? | |||
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" Your optimism is admirable,,, but the No campaign is asking us to vote no while offering us absolutely nothing in return.... except uncertainty....
I'm sorry, but I have to laugh at your assertion that the 'No' campaign is offering uncertainty, your suggestion then being that the 'Yes' campaign is offering certainty.
Care to tell me exactly what certainty the SNP is offering? That's the big issue re the 'Yes' campaign, it's all rhetoric!! Give me some facts!!
I see no assertion of any certainties given by the yes campaign.
The poster actually stated that "there are risks and uncertainties with any government"
Ahhh.........so we're to vote for the unknown??"A pig in a poke. A tartan poke but still a pig in a poke. | |||
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"I can offer some certainty if we vote no. Increased austerity, the same five families owning the same wealth as the poorest 12 million citizens, Scotland continuing to get a Westminster government they voted against, increased wealth for the south east of England at the expense of Scotland, both labour and conservative moving further to the right to appease the UKIP voters, Scotland's resources being bled dry while we get told we are subsidy junkies!!! There is just a few certainties from the NO campaign. " I can offer some certainty if we vote Yes. Increased austerity, the same five families owning the same wealth as the poorest 12 million citizens, Scotland and everywhere outside the SE of England continuing to get a Westminster government they voted against (in the end it's all about the economy and keeping the £ leaves Westminster in control of that), increased wealth for the south east of England at the expense of the rest of the UK and Scotland, both labour, SNP and conservative moving further to the right to appease the UKIP voters, Scotland's resources (however you define them) being bled dry still with no subsidies, These are just a few certainties from the Yes campaign. | |||
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"I can offer some certainty if we vote no. Increased austerity, the same five families owning the same wealth as the poorest 12 million citizens, Scotland continuing to get a Westminster government they voted against, increased wealth for the south east of England at the expense of Scotland, both labour and conservative moving further to the right to appease the UKIP voters, Scotland's resources being bled dry while we get told we are subsidy junkies!!! There is just a few certainties from the NO campaign. I can offer some certainty if we vote Yes. Increased austerity, the same five families owning the same wealth as the poorest 12 million citizens, Scotland and everywhere outside the SE of England continuing to get a Westminster government they voted against (in the end it's all about the economy and keeping the £ leaves Westminster in control of that), increased wealth for the south east of England at the expense of the rest of the UK and Scotland, both labour, SNP and conservative moving further to the right to appease the UKIP voters, Scotland's resources (however you define them) being bled dry still with no subsidies, These are just a few certainties from the Yes campaign. " Eh??? You've just confirmed the perfect argument for voting yes!!! | |||
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