FabSwingers.com forum: Grangemouth

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

What's the future for Grangemouth now?

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

Not great.

If people can resist the temptation to kick it about like a political football, it might stand a chance but there's no doubt UNITE badly misjudged the situation.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I don't know a lot about Unions but I would say the head Union guys are always in a Full Time job.

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By *ndykayMan
over a year ago

Falkirk

I suspect it will get sold off, re opened and everyone will be on contracts worth less.

That's the world we all live in now

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

It seems such a specialised workforce that the employees would struggle to get a job elsewhere. I don't know the full story but I always blame the unions. I know I shouldn't.

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

This started as a dispute about a union official on site using working time for political activity, connected to the selection of a candidate to stand in Falkirk at the next election.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The unions just don't get the 'Plant is losing money, so we can have hundreds of jobs at a bit less, or none at the demands you're making'.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Such a vast site to be sitting idle.

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By *ndykayMan
over a year ago

Falkirk

The simple truth is, they've had it so good for so long now they have lost sight of what the rest of us are going through. But the big problem is, a lot of them can't afford to take a pay cut now as they've had it so good.

So what do they do? Take a pay cut and lose their house? There are a lot of jobs there that also seem to be duplicated. It's a hard one as I know people on both sides.

I can understand the company needing to close the final salary pension scheme, my company did it over 10 years ago. Yes they could have handled it better but then the union has kind of stitched itself up too. And as someone said earlier, the too Union officials will be paid by the union.

I hope that the entire site is sold and the existing workers keep their jobs. Yes they may all get made redundant and have to re apply for their old jobs with a new company on reduced rtes but it's still a job.

Would it be feasible for the Scottish government to step in like it did with Prestwick airport?

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By *ndykayMan
over a year ago

Falkirk

"It seems such a specialised workforce that the employees would struggle to get a job elsewhere. I don't know the full story but I always blame the unions. I know I shouldn't. "

It's been going on ALOT longer than that

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

".......

Would it be feasible for the Scottish government to step in like it did with Prestwick airport?

To provide aviation fuel for all the planes that don't land at Prestwick?

John Swinney has been hawking Grangemouth around the world, despite the fact the Scottish Executive doesn't own it.

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By *ndykayMan
over a year ago

Falkirk

".......

Would it be feasible for the Scottish government to step in like it did with Prestwick airport?

To provide aviation fuel for all the planes that don't land at Prestwick?

John Swinney has been hawking Grangemouth around the world, despite the fact the Scottish Executive doesn't own it."

Well they've bailed out Prestwick. Why not try and bail out Grangemouth? It provides 80% of Scotland's fuel and probably employs more workers than Prestwick. Why shouldn't the Scottish government be trying to find a solution to the problem? It's what they are paid for! They have 1300 constituents working there whose jobs are all at risk now - I think it's time they actually did something to help the people of Scotland instead of grandstanding about independence.

(Sorry, just my opinion as a daft Englishman)

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

Where would/ should it stop?

Not much of Scottish industry is making money, except maybe whisky and much of the profit from that goes overseas, so should they all assume Holyrood will buy/ bail th out?

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By *ndykayMan
over a year ago

Falkirk

Ok, so should they have bought prestwick then?

I'm not saying we should buy Grangemouth but I think it's perfectly acceptable for them to get off their asses and try their best and work their hardest to try and find a solution to this which seems more likely to be a new owner.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Ok, so should they have bought prestwick then?

I agree with that, a sad day for Scotland!

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

"Ok, so should they have bought prestwick then?

I agree with that, a sad day for Scotland!"

Well, they haven't actually bought Prestwick yet, just announced that they're going to. Maybe not the best negotiating position.

Regardless of political considerations, it is a very sad day for the workforce and the whole of Scotland.

As someone said at the weekend - we'll end up buying petrol from England ......... with corkage charges!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Bottom line is they are totally overpaid with minimuum salaries of £34,000 per annum and a pension scheme which is final salary and company paying in 12% and employee only 3%. Holiday entitlements hae gone through the roof and too many employees working the sick list. The union has a lot to answer for as no company large or small can sustain losses of £10million per week.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

It seems to have been that a job with the BP as it was,was a job for life.

Welcome to the real world.

Lots of people with more important jobs don't get 34k.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It seems to have been that a job with the BP as it was,was a job for life.

Welcome to the real world.

Lots of people with more important jobs don't get 34k. "

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

"It seems to have been that a job with the BP as it was,was a job for life.

Welcome to the real world.

Lots of people with more important jobs don't get 34k. "

And a lot of the union officials who played brinksmanship (and lost) earn a lot more - yet will sleep tonight without being in fear for their jobs or homes will earn more.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Don't know enough to comment other than irrespective of the amount of the salarys real people have lost their jobs today and there will be a lot of frightened households in Grangemouth tonight.

Can't help but think the unions have played right into the owners hands. They can now close an unprofitable plant and divert the blame...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Don't know enough to comment other than irrespective of the amount of the salarys real people have lost their jobs today and there will be a lot of frightened households in Grangemouth tonight.

Can't help but think the unions have played right into the owners hands. They can now close an unprofitable plant and divert the blame..."

Absolutely.. but that's been the problem with the unions for decades now, they refuse to see the commercial realities and force members into strikes or play games with peoples livelihoods. Yes, we need to ensure that workers aren't shafted by management, but if a business isn't working, then something has to be done.

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By *rsFine-MrBallsCouple
over a year ago

markinch

10 million a week or month loss, mega amount. Owners set out a plan to preserve jobs and the industry, 800 people vote on it, majority say no , not the union , but the individuals, no plan accepted to save the workforce , closure , wheres the complaint , accept the plan , keep receiving reported 55,000 average pay with reduction in pension . Tell you what , i would have said yes to it.

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

Looks like Unite has capitulated.

8am meeting tomorrow when they will ask to be allowed to accept the deal their members rejected yesterday.

Look like a bad day for working folk.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"10 million a week or month loss, mega amount. Owners set out a plan to preserve jobs and the industry, 800 people vote on it, majority say no , not the union , but the individuals, no plan accepted to save the workforce , closure , wheres the complaint , accept the plan , keep receiving reported 55,000 average pay with reduction in pension . Tell you what , i would have said yes to it. "

Union did tell their members to reject it, so they're still responsible.

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

Ineos might still demand the union official's head.

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By *ussymufferMan
over a year ago

Lanarkshire

is the fat cat bosses taking a pay cut and a pension cut if they have had grants of government they should be made paid back so tax payers are not left out of pocket again by spivs that run these companies

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

An interesting point made elsewhere is that if Ineos just strike their tent and go, someone will be left with a huge clean up bill.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Salmon can kiss an Independent Scotland goodbye if it shuts.....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Where would/ should it stop?

Not much of Scottish industry is making money, except maybe whisky and much of the profit from that goes overseas, so should they all assume Holyrood will buy/ bail th out?"

I read the parent company's turnover was £26billion. That's not profit tho

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Salmon can kiss an Independent Scotland goodbye if it shuts....."

Don't follow your logic

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By *ndykayMan
over a year ago

Falkirk

[Removed by poster at 24/10/13 08:57:45]

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By *ndykayMan
over a year ago

Falkirk

"Salmon can kiss an Independent Scotland goodbye if it shuts.....

Don't follow your logic"

I think the logic behind the comment was thatvSalmon is relying on oil money for an independent Scotland. If ineos pulls out completely, what will happen?

Thing is, the oil comes ashore at ineos' next door neighbour - BP. All they need is a new power source if ineos closes completely and then just ship the crude oil south.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Inios have paid no tax since 2008-instigated this situation for there own end and had the cheek after announcing record profits to ask for even more grants.

Multinational companies can now ride roughshod over anyone and the union can really do nothing to stop them. And the Tory government won't question them either. The only loser as usual will be the workers whose pensions and condiions are dwindling.

They will have to accept the conditions or sadly lose there job though.

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

"Salmon can kiss an Independent Scotland goodbye if it shuts.....

Don't follow your logic

I think the logic behind the comment was thatvSalmon is relying on oil money for an independent Scotland. If ineos pulls out completely, what will happen?

Thing is, the oil comes ashore at ineos' next door neighbour - BP. All they need is a new power source if ineos closes completely and then just ship the crude oil south.

Grangemouth uses BrentCrude which is $10 - 20 dearer than the Texas equivalent. That's roughly 10% to 20%.

That's the 'extra' Salmond is relying on but which is crippling Grangemouth.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Suddenly when the management state they will close the site the Unite union leader Pat Rafferty says that they have other proposals to put to the company. These proposals are what the company was actually asking for. No strikes, salary caps, closing final salary scheme, changes to sickness entitlement etc. Pat Rafferty an the person holding everyone to ransom and now he is backing down as he won't win after Ineos said they would have to close the plant. Stephen Deans was the unions "convenor" who attempted, although cleared, to rig a labour election vote to replace disgraced labour MP Eric Joyce by signing up other employees whilst working at grangemouth, to the labour party. The whole matter stinks from the union side.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

i just feel for the percentage that voted to accept it in the first place, ok they may not of been the majority, but they must be off the scale annoyed.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

To take this a little further, do the unions still have a place in the modern business world? To me, they don't have any relevance in todays business community, in their traditional form anyway.

In this case, Unite clearly thought the company was bluffing and they thought it was enough to stir the workforce towards strike action and when their bluff has been called they've been forced into a very embarrassing climb down, further weakening their position as still being relevant.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple
over a year ago

in Lancashire

looks like its been saved whilst consultation goes on..

yes I think the Union were caught out and had to back track further to save the jobs than they may have originally anticipated..

the £300 million investment which wasn't there 2 days ago has now suddenly materialised..

and the UK government has guaranteed loans with the Scottish Exec also contributing some grants..

could an 'Independent Scotland' have come up with the necessary loan guarantees the company wanted as part of the package..?

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

" .........

could an 'Independent Scotland' have come up with the necessary loan guarantees the company wanted as part of the package..? "

Making a loan guarantee is quite easy. The tricky bit is coming up with the goods if it all goes tits up.

It's the risk of a 'Scottish' loan guarantee failing that makes the SNP determined to keep Sterling.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

£300 million was on the agenda long before the dispute started. Union just had to back down and now Ineos can re-write the contracts which ever way they want. Proves union was useless and why did they ask members to increase the unuion dues by 4% and give the union officials an increase in their salaries.

Funny reading Daily Record today how a different slant was put on this but then again that newspaper group will print anything

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

"£300 million was on the agenda long before the dispute started. Union just had to back down and now Ineos can re-write the contracts which ever way they want. Proves union was useless and why did they ask members to increase the unuion dues by 4% and give the union officials an increase in their salaries.

Funny reading Daily Record today how a different slant was put on this but then again that newspaper group will print anything"

Even those of us whose mother's milk was deepest red are a bit fed up

1) with the Record's stupid attempts to pull the wool over the eyes of the Scottish public

2) with some union officials can't see beyond the end of their nose. UNITE desperately overplayed a poor hand and their members, possibly all union members, will pay a high price for years.

That said, it does perhaps put Salmond in an awkward place. If a large site with a big workforce is too important to Scotland and the local community, where does that leave places like Faslane - high up on Eck's closure list?

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

"This started as a dispute about a union official on site using working time for political activity, connected to the selection of a candidate to stand in Falkirk at the next election."

The union official, Stephen Deans, has resigned - the day before the result of a disciplinary hearing into his activities was due to be published.

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By *ndykayMan
over a year ago

Falkirk

"This started as a dispute about a union official on site using working time for political activity, connected to the selection of a candidate to stand in Falkirk at the next election.

The union official, Stephen Deans, has resigned - the day before the result of a disciplinary hearing into his activities was due to be published."

Isn't that a little strange? If he had nothing to lose, why quit?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I suspect it will get sold off, re opened and everyone will be on contracts worth less.

That's the world we all live in now

Thats the rumour going round right now sad but most likley right.

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

"This started as a dispute about a union official on site using working time for political activity, connected to the selection of a candidate to stand in Falkirk at the next election.

The union official, Stephen Deans, has resigned - the day before the result of a disciplinary hearing into his activities was due to be published.

Isn't that a little strange? If he had nothing to lose, why quit?

I doubt well ever find out but I hear a whisper he's getting a full time job with Unite - on better wages.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

As is so often the case, lots of angles to this one.

But one thing which seems definite, is the fact that the Deans guy was spending a significant amout of his work time doing union and local political business. The union must have known this yet they jeopardise the jobs of hundreds of people, and that's just for starters, to support 'their' guy's wrongdoing!!

Not for the first time, it shows just how out of touch the unions are!!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm absolutely shocked by reports this morning of Steven Deans who organised a protest of 30 people to go round to a director’s house & protest. They even got children playing in the street to join in & told the neighbours that they were "evil" They also had leafleting campaigns slurring the director’s names.

Unite do this under what they call "leverage" which seems to be the worse kind of intimidation. The director involved has a wife & children & knows that these people know where they live.

Cameron critised Deans in PMQ's yesterday but Unite leader Len McClusky said that Deans was a "Honourable & decent man"

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

McCluskey has lost touch with reality.

He was on Newsnight yesterday and you could tell he didn't believe a word he was saying.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

At the end of the second world war Britain's businesses had all the Unions on the board of directors. That was seperated. At the same time rebuilding Germany, we recommended that they put the Unions on the boards of their businesses, which they duely did until this day.

So in this country we have Union leaders who don't really have the workers interests at heart, they'd rather try & turn Britain into a Communist country instead.

Unite's influence over the Labour party is frightening if this is how they like to behave.

I understand why people vote for socialism, as it's a compassionate thing. But so often the leaders in the Labour party & Unions abuse that in order to persue communist ideals.

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

"At the end of the second world war Britain's businesses had all the Unions on the board of directors. That was seperated. At the same time rebuilding Germany, we recommended that they put the Unions on the boards of their businesses, which they duely did until this day.

So in this country we have Union leaders who don't really have the workers interests at heart, they'd rather try & turn Britain into a Communist country instead.

Unite's influence over the Labour party is frightening if this is how they like to behave.

I understand why people vote for socialism, as it's a compassionate thing. But so often the leaders in the Labour party & Unions abuse that in order to persue communist ideals.

Bertie is well named.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So Scargill, Jack Jones, Len McClusky don't & never did want a Communist country then? Sorry, but I only deal in facts & those are the facts.

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

"So Scargill, Jack Jones, Len McClusky don't & never did want a Communist country then? Sorry, but I only deal in facts & those are the facts.

Pursuing egalitarian ideals isn't the same as wanting a communist country.

Plucking three names from the many, many union leaders over the years whose sole ambition has been the improvement of terms and conditions for their members - improvements which many non-union members benefit from, shows a lack of understanding - deliberate or otherwise.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm astounded by those comments. Jack Jones & Arthur Scargill both were in the pay of the Kremlin.

Which is why I am right & you are totally and utterly delusional.

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

"I'm astounded by those comments. Jack Jones & Arthur Scargill both were in the pay of the Kremlin.

Which is why I am right & you are totally and utterly delusional.

To be Blunt, you may be think of a number of other chaps.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Its too complex an issue for people on the outside to think they know how to solve the problem. Even folk who are involved are left scratching their heads.

although i heard that the proclaimers are trying to rewrite some lyrics just incase.

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By *nnyMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

"This started as a dispute about a union official on site using working time for political activity, connected to the selection of a candidate to stand in Falkirk at the next election.

The union official, Stephen Deans, has resigned - the day before the result of a disciplinary hearing into his activities was due to be published.

Isn't that a little strange? If he had nothing to lose, why quit?

I doubt well ever find out but I hear a whisper he's getting a full time job with Unite - on better wages."

And, not that you ever doubted me, Stevie Deans has indeed been given a full time job with UNITE.

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