Join us FREE, we're FREE to use
Web's largest swingers site since 2006.
Already registered?
Login here
Join us FREE, we're FREE to use
Web's largest swingers site since 2006.
Already registered?
Login here
 | Back to forum list |
| Back to Politics |
| Jump to newest |  |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This is terrible. Sentences of up to 13 years for the politicians who organised a referendum - declared illegal - on independence for Catalonia. What will happen now? Will Catalonia go the way of the Basque country and seek other means to achieve their goal, now that the ballot box route carries a long jail sentence? I think there will be trouble. The national police have moved into Barcelona to pre-empt protests. " I am ambivalent about this. Independence was declared based on a half-arsed referendum. The situation was handled with stupidity and insensitivity by the central government. As far as I am aware the Spanish courts actually function pretty well. Those convicted did actually do what they were accused of doing as far as the law is concerned. Nationalism handed badly. As it usually is. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Meanwhile, chief instigator of the Catalan independence movement, Carlos Puidgemont, still lives in Belgium, and whilst his troops are doing jail, he lives a normal life. " I do not think living in exile can be called a "normal life". Spain tried to extradite one of the politicians from Scotland. She is a lecturer at a university now. Spain dropped the case after the Scottish court said it could not consider an application for extradition because there was no crime in Scottish law equivalent to sedition. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Do you think that spain would ever let scotland join the eu if they broke away from the uk? i dont think so it would give to much ammunition to catalonia and the basque country for their independence. " I honestly do not know. Spain makes some ambivalent noises about this. It would be determined by the politics of the time, the prevailing relationship between rUK and the EU and Spain's aspirations for Gibraltar. The argument in Spain is that Scotland is already a country - one that has been in a union for 300+ years - whereas Catalonia has no history as a country and therefore isn't entitled to secede. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Meanwhile, chief instigator of the Catalan independence movement, Carlos Puidgemont, still lives in Belgium, and whilst his troops are doing jail, he lives a normal life. I do not think living in exile can be called a "normal life". Spain tried to extradite one of the politicians from Scotland. She is a lecturer at a university now. Spain dropped the case after the Scottish court said it could not consider an application for extradition because there was no crime in Scottish law equivalent to sedition. " You make it sound likes he's Napoleon being exiled to St Helena! He lives in self-imposed exile South of Brussels. He and his family have a nice house and he can come and go as he pleases, except to Spain, as the European Arrest Warrants have been withdrawn by Spain. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
""These politicians have been jailed for seeking to allow the people of Catalonia to peacefully choose their own future. Any political system that leads to such a dreadful outcome needs urgent change. My thoughts and solidarity are with all of them and their families." - Nicola Sturgeon I agree with this. " Well she would say that as it seems its the snp,s plan B. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" You make it sound likes he's Napoleon being exiled to St Helena! He lives in self-imposed exile South of Brussels. He and his family have a nice house and he can come and go as he pleases, except to Spain, as the European Arrest Warrants have been withdrawn by Spain. " When your political life is devoted to achieving independence for your homeland, and you cannot return because you face a long jail term for organising a ballot, it is not normal. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It was right, as it was an illegal referendum and a breach of the spanish constitution." The people are sovereign, not the institutions that govern them. They are being punished because they went down the democratic route. That must be better than the alternative we have seen in so many other separatist movements. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It was right, as it was an illegal referendum and a breach of the spanish constitution. The people are sovereign, not the institutions that govern them. They are being punished because they went down the democratic route. That must be better than the alternative we have seen in so many other separatist movements. " They didn't though. As has been stated, the problem wasn't the referendum. It was invalid practically due to the turn-out even if there is an argument about its legality. The problem was declaring independence. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It was right, as it was an illegal referendum and a breach of the spanish constitution. The people are sovereign, not the institutions that govern them. They are being punished because they went down the democratic route. That must be better than the alternative we have seen in so many other separatist movements. " No they a being punished because they broke the law.Yes the people sovereign by voting for mp,s who make the laws but you cannot break it only vote for change.The alternative is anarchy. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"What would the equivalent here be? Parties win elections with manifestos promising a referendum. On the re-unification of Ireland. 13 years in jail On the secession of Scotland? 13 years in jail On separation from the EU? 13 years in jail. By any definition, that is totalitarian in nature. People vote for change, and the institutions need to be flexible enough to respond. " I agree too it is harsh but the referendum was illegal and they tried to implement it.One minister only got 10 months but that is because he resigned when they said they would implement the result and he knew that was a different ball game all together. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"What would the equivalent here be? Parties win elections with manifestos promising a referendum. On the re-unification of Ireland. 13 years in jail On the secession of Scotland? 13 years in jail On separation from the EU? 13 years in jail. By any definition, that is totalitarian in nature. People vote for change, and the institutions need to be flexible enough to respond. " You are arguing the opposite of your Brexit position here. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It was right, as it was an illegal referendum and a breach of the spanish constitution. The people are sovereign, not the institutions that govern them. They are being punished because they went down the democratic route. That must be better than the alternative we have seen in so many other separatist movements. No they a being punished because they broke the law.Yes the people sovereign by voting for mp,s who make the laws but you cannot break it only vote for change.The alternative is anarchy. " Generally this is true. But there are plenty of examples in history where the system was rigged against the change. Under those circumstances we hail the "law breakers" as heroes. (civil rights, suffragettes, etc etc) Whether this falls quite into that category is less black and white. But neither side is coming out of it looking good. This heavy handed approach isn't going to heal the division. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"What would the equivalent here be? Parties win elections with manifestos promising a referendum. On the re-unification of Ireland. 13 years in jail On the secession of Scotland? 13 years in jail On separation from the EU? 13 years in jail. By any definition, that is totalitarian in nature. People vote for change, and the institutions need to be flexible enough to respond. You are arguing the opposite of your Brexit position here." I've never questioned the legitimacy of leaving the EU as a policy. Indeed, putting the merits of it to one side, you can argue that it has been the most successful policy initiative of modern times - from the fringes of society in the 1990s to mainstream policy 20 years later, with barely a demo in the streets. No-one said it was illegitimate, or that you would be imprisoned for seeking to pursue it. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"What would the equivalent here be? Parties win elections with manifestos promising a referendum. On the re-unification of Ireland. 13 years in jail On the secession of Scotland? 13 years in jail On separation from the EU? 13 years in jail. By any definition, that is totalitarian in nature. People vote for change, and the institutions need to be flexible enough to respond. You are arguing the opposite of your Brexit position here. I've never questioned the legitimacy of leaving the EU as a policy. Indeed, putting the merits of it to one side, you can argue that it has been the most successful policy initiative of modern times - from the fringes of society in the 1990s to mainstream policy 20 years later, with barely a demo in the streets. No-one said it was illegitimate, or that you would be imprisoned for seeking to pursue it. " Perhaps that's my mistake. I thought that you had questioned the validity of the vote based on the lies told. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"What would the equivalent here be? Parties win elections with manifestos promising a referendum. On the re-unification of Ireland. 13 years in jail On the secession of Scotland? 13 years in jail On separation from the EU? 13 years in jail. By any definition, that is totalitarian in nature. People vote for change, and the institutions need to be flexible enough to respond. You are arguing the opposite of your Brexit position here. I've never questioned the legitimacy of leaving the EU as a policy. Indeed, putting the merits of it to one side, you can argue that it has been the most successful policy initiative of modern times - from the fringes of society in the 1990s to mainstream policy 20 years later, with barely a demo in the streets. No-one said it was illegitimate, or that you would be imprisoned for seeking to pursue it. Perhaps that's my mistake. I thought that you had questioned the validity of the vote based on the lies told." There you go again assuming instead of asking but at least you are learning now.  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Perhaps that's my mistake. I thought that you had questioned the validity of the vote based on the lies told." No. I do not question the validity of the result, nor the legitimacy of invoking Article 50 as a result of it. All political campaigns are rooted in mistruths, untruths and deceptions - the referendum was just a particularly good (or bad) example it. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
 | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"What would the equivalent here be? Parties win elections with manifestos promising a referendum. On the re-unification of Ireland. 13 years in jail On the secession of Scotland? 13 years in jail On separation from the EU? 13 years in jail. By any definition, that is totalitarian in nature. People vote for change, and the institutions need to be flexible enough to respond. You are arguing the opposite of your Brexit position here. I've never questioned the legitimacy of leaving the EU as a policy. Indeed, putting the merits of it to one side, you can argue that it has been the most successful policy initiative of modern times - from the fringes of society in the 1990s to mainstream policy 20 years later, with barely a demo in the streets. No-one said it was illegitimate, or that you would be imprisoned for seeking to pursue it. Perhaps that's my mistake. I thought that you had questioned the validity of the vote based on the lies told.There you go again assuming instead of asking but at least you are learning now. "That's why I clarified and offered a conditional apology. Reading can be your friend too  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"New European Arrest Warrant issued today in Madrid for Carlos Puigdemont on charges of sedition and misuse of public funds. The previous one was dropped when a court in Germany accepted an extradition request for misuse of public funds only. The hardliners in Madrid are going to try again. Criminalising democrats is a dangerous tactic." I'd still take exception to this being a "democratic" declaration of independence. Based on what? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This is terrible. Sentences of up to 13 years for the politicians who organised a referendum - declared illegal - on independence for Catalonia. What will happen now? Will Catalonia go the way of the Basque country and seek other means to achieve their goal, now that the ballot box route carries a long jail sentence? I think there will be trouble. The national police have moved into Barcelona to pre-empt protests. " Your allways telling us how wonderfull Spain is,how wonderfull the EU is.Well it ain't you should appreciate what a wonderfull country Britain is.Spain is basically a police state dressed up as democratic | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This is terrible. Sentences of up to 13 years for the politicians who organised a referendum - declared illegal - on independence for Catalonia. What will happen now? Will Catalonia go the way of the Basque country and seek other means to achieve their goal, now that the ballot box route carries a long jail sentence? I think there will be trouble. The national police have moved into Barcelona to pre-empt protests. Your allways telling us how wonderfull Spain is,how wonderfull the EU is.Well it ain't you should appreciate what a wonderfull country Britain is.Spain is basically a police state dressed up as democratic"  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" I'd still take exception to this being a "democratic" declaration of independence. Based on what?" I agree with you, it was cack-handed and somewhat amateurish in its execution. But criminal? i don't think so. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
 | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The indepence flag is rather fetching? Have you seen it? The traditional red and yellow flag of Catalonia, with a white star inserted in a blue triangle. It's lovely. So lovely I have one on the front of my scooter "Such a cosmopolitan girl | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It was right, as it was an illegal referendum and a breach of the spanish constitution. The people are sovereign, not the institutions that govern them. They are being punished because they went down the democratic route. That must be better than the alternative we have seen in so many other separatist movements. " And there was me thinking it was parliament, not the people, that are sovereign, and that the rule of law should be followed. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I think maybe the SNP should realise how lucky they are !" | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It was right, as it was an illegal referendum and a breach of the spanish constitution. The people are sovereign, not the institutions that govern them. They are being punished because they went down the democratic route. That must be better than the alternative we have seen in so many other separatist movements. And there was me thinking it was parliament, not the people, that are sovereign, and that the rule of law should be followed." Parliament is sovereign, not the people | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It was right, as it was an illegal referendum and a breach of the spanish constitution. The people are sovereign, not the institutions that govern them. They are being punished because they went down the democratic route. That must be better than the alternative we have seen in so many other separatist movements. And there was me thinking it was parliament, not the people, that are sovereign, and that the rule of law should be followed. Parliament is sovereign, not the people "Who elects parliament ? That makes the citizen in charge, unless youre a communist of course when you do as youre told | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It was right, as it was an illegal referendum and a breach of the spanish constitution. The people are sovereign, not the institutions that govern them. They are being punished because they went down the democratic route. That must be better than the alternative we have seen in so many other separatist movements. And there was me thinking it was parliament, not the people, that are sovereign, and that the rule of law should be followed. Parliament is sovereign, not the people
Who elects parliament ? That makes the citizen in charge, unless youre a communist of course when you do as youre told"Citizens cannot create or revoke Laws, Citizens are subservient to the will of Parliament through Parliamentary Law. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" I'd still take exception to this being a "democratic" declaration of independence. Based on what? I agree with you, it was cack-handed and somewhat amateurish in its execution. But criminal? i don't think so. " Criminal by spending public funds on an illegal election and then trying to succeed on a 43% turnout where pretty much only one side voted. So yes. The law should be applied to everyone no? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This is terrible. Sentences of up to 13 years for the politicians who organised a referendum - declared illegal - on independence for Catalonia. What will happen now? Will Catalonia go the way of the Basque country and seek other means to achieve their goal, now that the ballot box route carries a long jail sentence? I think there will be trouble. The national police have moved into Barcelona to pre-empt protests. Your allways telling us how wonderfull Spain is,how wonderfull the EU is.Well it ain't you should appreciate what a wonderfull country Britain is.Spain is basically a police state dressed up as democratic" We had poll tax riots and a miners strike which deployed very agressive police tactics. We're we a Police state then? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Well she would say that as it seems its the snp,s plan B." No it isn't. She made that clear on Sunday. She may sympathise with the Catalans but she's well aware they went about it the wrong way; and they really did, considering Spanish law. The sentences are overly harsh but they needn't have been incurred in the first place. She knows - and has stated - that Scotland's independence has to happen via a legitimate, legal route in order for it to be recognised internationally; and when it finally happens, it will be. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Criminal by spending public funds on an illegal election and then trying to succeed on a 43% turnout where pretty much only one side voted. So yes. The law should be applied to everyone no?" You make fair points. I still do not see how it justifies long prison sentences, however. That just creates political prisoners. These are the kind of sentences you expect for corruption in public office. Neither does it address the fundamental issue. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Criminal by spending public funds on an illegal election and then trying to succeed on a 43% turnout where pretty much only one side voted. So yes. The law should be applied to everyone no? You make fair points. I still do not see how it justifies long prison sentences, however. That just creates political prisoners. These are the kind of sentences you expect for corruption in public office. Neither does it address the fundamental issue. " Holding illegal referendums and declaring independence, how much higher corruption of office do you want  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Criminal by spending public funds on an illegal election and then trying to succeed on a 43% turnout where pretty much only one side voted. So yes. The law should be applied to everyone no? You make fair points. I still do not see how it justifies long prison sentences, however. That just creates political prisoners. These are the kind of sentences you expect for corruption in public office. Neither does it address the fundamental issue. " The courts should not sentence based on the political mood. The political solution is a separate matter. It should never have got to this point. Reboot the process with the new leaders of the independence movement with discussions on more autonomy or a referendum after legal changes. The underlying argument is actually that Catalonia pays out more than it gets so why should they share? Not the most positive of sentiments... | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Do you know that the courts have sentenced on political mood? " I do not think that they have. I understand that the Spanish courts operate independently as do ours. As they should. The opinion being widely expressed that the sentences are "too harsh" are not legal ones. It's up to the judges don't you think? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It was right, as it was an illegal referendum and a breach of the spanish constitution. The people are sovereign, not the institutions that govern them. They are being punished because they went down the democratic route. That must be better than the alternative we have seen in so many other separatist movements. And there was me thinking it was parliament, not the people, that are sovereign, and that the rule of law should be followed. Parliament is sovereign, not the people
Who elects parliament ? That makes the citizen in charge, unless youre a communist of course when you do as youre told
Citizens cannot create or revoke Laws, Citizens are subservient to the will of Parliament through Parliamentary Law. "Only by a majority of voters agreeing to those laws, after they have been proposed in a manifesto, voters loan governance to a party and can remove governments they dont like, indeed we can now remove MPs during a parliament | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Do you know that the courts have sentenced on political mood? I do not think that they have. I understand that the Spanish courts operate independently as do ours. As they should. The opinion being widely expressed that the sentences are "too harsh" are not legal ones. It's up to the judges don't you think?" I would of thought so yes | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It was right, as it was an illegal referendum and a breach of the spanish constitution. The people are sovereign, not the institutions that govern them. They are being punished because they went down the democratic route. That must be better than the alternative we have seen in so many other separatist movements. And there was me thinking it was parliament, not the people, that are sovereign, and that the rule of law should be followed. Parliament is sovereign, not the people
Who elects parliament ? That makes the citizen in charge, unless youre a communist of course when you do as youre told
Citizens cannot create or revoke Laws, Citizens are subservient to the will of Parliament through Parliamentary Law.
Only by a majority of voters agreeing to those laws, after they have been proposed in a manifesto, voters loan governance to a party and can remove governments they dont like, indeed we can now remove MPs during a parliament"Voters don't "get to agree to laws" before they get onto the statute at all. I think you must live in a different country to me | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Criminal by spending public funds on an illegal election and then trying to succeed on a 43% turnout where pretty much only one side voted. So yes. The law should be applied to everyone no? You make fair points. I still do not see how it justifies long prison sentences, however. That just creates political prisoners. These are the kind of sentences you expect for corruption in public office. Neither does it address the fundamental issue. Holding illegal referendums and declaring independence, how much higher corruption of office do you want "When did campaigners for political change who used the ballot box to achieve their goals ever get accused of corruption? I cannot think of any equivalent in history. Corruption? For using the ballot box to bring about change? Your idea of corruption is very different from mine. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"When did campaigners for political change who used the ballot box to achieve their goals ever get accused of corruption? I cannot think of any equivalent in history." Gandhi's independence movement in India, Rhodesian UDI, or any other movement to destabilise and remove the establishment in history where some of those seeking independence have worked from inside the establishment. It is not a question of is there corruption, but of who will be labeled corrupt by history. And the answer to that is simple, the looser is always corrupt. History is written by the victor, which like it or not is generally a corrupted version of reality. Of course this is my personal ( and very cynical) opinion, nothing more. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" The underlying argument is actually that Catalonia pays out more than it gets so why should they share? " Yes, I believe that is the big issue. Catalonia pays more into Spain than it gets out. Bit like Britain in the EU. According to some. They think their taxes subsidise the rest of Spain and would be better off keeping them to themselves. I get the impression Catalonia is the wealth generator in Spain. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I imagine some accused the civil rights movement of trying to corrupt the system. Or the suffragettes. " Indeed! How many years did Nelson Mandela spend on Robin Island? How many suffragettes were jailed for sedition and civil disobedience? 13 civil rights marchers were killed on Bloody Sunday. How many of the Extinction Rebellion protesters are now awaiting trial for demanding that the establishment change? The struggle between established power and change goes back to the dawn of civilisation and while unchanging drives change. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This is terrible. Sentences of up to 13 years for the politicians who organised a referendum - declared illegal - on independence for Catalonia. What will happen now? Will Catalonia go the way of the Basque country and seek other means to achieve their goal, now that the ballot box route carries a long jail sentence? I think there will be trouble. The national police have moved into Barcelona to pre-empt protests. " The sentencing is a bit harsh. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"They stood against the system. And the system sought to punish them. " . Are you talking about the 17.4 million who voted brexit or Catalonia?. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Any Spanish Fabbers care to comment???" They'll be in the Spain forum talking about sex | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"General strike today. National police moved in and it's all kicked off!" Again, not handling it at all well. Grandstanding by the Prime Minister and heavy handed police tactics. Dumb. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"They stood against the system. And the system sought to punish them. . Are you talking about the 17.4 million who voted brexit or Catalonia?." Has Farage been jailed yet? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"¡Viva la Revolución! "Supporting separation and selfishness? No. Not for me. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"General strike today. National police moved in and it's all kicked off! Again, not handling it at all well. Grandstanding by the Prime Minister and heavy handed police tactics. Dumb." lived in spain for cpl of years thats not heavy handed thats just spanish police.they ask u to do something if you dont comply they make you do it.dunno if you have met the gaurdia but they aint ya freindly neighbour hood copper preety much milatry | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It was right, as it was an illegal referendum and a breach of the spanish constitution." That doesn’t warrant the jailing of these people. It won’t quash the demand for Catalan independence, just fuel it. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"General strike today. National police moved in and it's all kicked off! Again, not handling it at all well. Grandstanding by the Prime Minister and heavy handed police tactics. Dumb. lived in spain for cpl of years thats not heavy handed thats just spanish police.they ask u to do something if you dont comply they make you do it.dunno if you have met the gaurdia but they aint ya freindly neighbour hood copper preety much milatry" What I mean is that this does not defuse the situation. It entrenches it. I am sure that they are perfectly capable of policing differently if told to. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It was right, as it was an illegal referendum and a breach of the spanish constitution. That doesn’t warrant the jailing of these people. It won’t quash the demand for Catalan independence, just fuel it. " Breaking the law doesn't warrant jailing if that is the penalty? The law should be ignored? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"General strike today. National police moved in and it's all kicked off! Again, not handling it at all well. Grandstanding by the Prime Minister and heavy handed police tactics. Dumb. lived in spain for cpl of years thats not heavy handed thats just spanish police.they ask u to do something if you dont comply they make you do it.dunno if you have met the gaurdia but they aint ya freindly neighbour hood copper preety much milatry What I mean is that this does not defuse the situation. It entrenches it. I am sure that they are perfectly capable of policing differently if told to." im pretty sure the majority of spanish people are fine with how the police are handling it.and they definatley wont be asked to change there tactics.may seem heavy handed to us in the uk but in spain they are well aware of how the old bill handle things.fucked up mabey but thats how they do things | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"General strike today. National police moved in and it's all kicked off! Again, not handling it at all well. Grandstanding by the Prime Minister and heavy handed police tactics. Dumb. lived in spain for cpl of years thats not heavy handed thats just spanish police.they ask u to do something if you dont comply they make you do it.dunno if you have met the gaurdia but they aint ya freindly neighbour hood copper preety much milatry What I mean is that this does not defuse the situation. It entrenches it. I am sure that they are perfectly capable of policing differently if told to. im pretty sure the majority of spanish people are fine with how the police are handling it.and they definatley wont be asked to change there tactics.may seem heavy handed to us in the uk but in spain they are well aware of how the old bill handle things.fucked up mabey but thats how they do things" Do you understand my point? I'm not talking about what the police "normally" do. I'm talking about what the police and government should do to defuse the situation and prevent momentum for independence from building. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Meanwhile, chief instigator of the Catalan independence movement, Carlos Puidgemont, still lives in Belgium, and whilst his troops are doing jail, he lives a normal life. " Actually he turned himself in to Belgian police. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This is terrible. Sentences of up to 13 years for the politicians who organised a referendum - declared illegal - on independence for Catalonia. What will happen now? Will Catalonia go the way of the Basque country and seek other means to achieve their goal, now that the ballot box route carries a long jail sentence? I think there will be trouble. The national police have moved into Barcelona to pre-empt protests. I am ambivalent about this. Independence was declared based on a half-arsed referendum. The situation was handled with stupidity and insensitivity by the central government. As far as I am aware the Spanish courts actually function pretty well. Those convicted did actually do what they were accused of doing as far as the law is concerned. Nationalism handed badly. As it usually is." They voted overwhelmingly to have a referendum and were constantly knocked back, I completely understand why they went ahead with it. Spain just doesn't want to lose its cash cow. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This is terrible. Sentences of up to 13 years for the politicians who organised a referendum - declared illegal - on independence for Catalonia. What will happen now? Will Catalonia go the way of the Basque country and seek other means to achieve their goal, now that the ballot box route carries a long jail sentence? I think there will be trouble. The national police have moved into Barcelona to pre-empt protests. I am ambivalent about this. Independence was declared based on a half-arsed referendum. The situation was handled with stupidity and insensitivity by the central government. As far as I am aware the Spanish courts actually function pretty well. Those convicted did actually do what they were accused of doing as far as the law is concerned. Nationalism handed badly. As it usually is."  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Do you think that spain would ever let scotland join the eu if they broke away from the uk? i dont think so it would give to much ammunition to catalonia and the basque country for their independence. I honestly do not know. Spain makes some ambivalent noises about this. It would be determined by the politics of the time, the prevailing relationship between rUK and the EU and Spain's aspirations for Gibraltar. The argument in Spain is that Scotland is already a country - one that has been in a union for 300+ years - whereas Catalonia has no history as a country and therefore isn't entitled to secede. " Catalonia has a rich history including suppression of culture and language by Spain. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Yes, it was all very messy and not very well thought out. That said, when those parties with manifestos that promised a referendum won the election, that was the time for wiser heads to agree a way forward. (As happened in the UK after the SNP won the 2011 election on a manifesto promising a referendum. Had the UK Government refused to sanction it, I have no doubt an illegal referendum would have been held anyway.) The way the Catalans went about was half-baked and the referendum itself didn't carry any real weight as a result. But 13 years in jail is just ridiculous. " I was there, police attacked people for trying to vote, truncheons to the head. Look up the actual referendum on teh web. Mossos (local polis) refused to prevent the ref so Spanish police had to come in and they were v violent to men women trying to peacefully vote, if it had been a Spain approved ref they estimated it would have been 78% in favour of Catalonia separating from Spain to become independent and obvs Spain doesn't want to lose the income so they jail politicians and attack grannies who try to put an x on paper. It's called facism btw. About 40% of Madrid politicians are pro facist allegedly. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"¡Viva la Revolución!
Supporting separation and selfishness?
No. Not for me."The right to self-determination is a pretty basic principle. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Meanwhile, chief instigator of the Catalan independence movement, Carlos Puidgemont, still lives in Belgium, and whilst his troops are doing jail, he lives a normal life. Actually he turned himself in to Belgian police. " Only yesterday, and he wasn't detained. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"General strike today. National police moved in and it's all kicked off! Again, not handling it at all well. Grandstanding by the Prime Minister and heavy handed police tactics. Dumb. lived in spain for cpl of years thats not heavy handed thats just spanish police.they ask u to do something if you dont comply they make you do it.dunno if you have met the gaurdia but they aint ya freindly neighbour hood copper preety much milatry What I mean is that this does not defuse the situation. It entrenches it. I am sure that they are perfectly capable of policing differently if told to. im pretty sure the majority of spanish people are fine with how the police are handling it.and they definatley wont be asked to change there tactics.may seem heavy handed to us in the uk but in spain they are well aware of how the old bill handle things.fucked up mabey but thats how they do things Do you understand my point? I'm not talking about what the police "normally" do. I'm talking about what the police and government should do to defuse the situation and prevent momentum for independence from building."
yea i understand your point
what im trying to explain to you is no matter what me you or anyone else think it wont change.its only the people of catalonia who want independence and even then not everyone there wants it the rest of spain certainly dont so they not gona presure the police to calm down.
do you understand what im staying | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This is terrible. Sentences of up to 13 years for the politicians who organised a referendum - declared illegal - on independence for Catalonia. What will happen now? Will Catalonia go the way of the Basque country and seek other means to achieve their goal, now that the ballot box route carries a long jail sentence? I think there will be trouble. The national police have moved into Barcelona to pre-empt protests. I am ambivalent about this. Independence was declared based on a half-arsed referendum. The situation was handled with stupidity and insensitivity by the central government. As far as I am aware the Spanish courts actually function pretty well. Those convicted did actually do what they were accused of doing as far as the law is concerned. Nationalism handed badly. As it usually is. They voted overwhelmingly to have a referendum and were constantly knocked back, I completely understand why they went ahead with it. Spain just doesn't want to lose its cash cow. " Who voted to have a referendum? When did that happen? Do you mean voted in a referendum? An illegal one. One in which 43% of the population votes and nearly all from one side of the argument? Is that the "overwhelming" that you mean? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"¡Viva la Revolución!
Supporting separation and selfishness?
No. Not for me.
The right to self-determination is a pretty basic principle.
"It may be "basic" but it doesn't make it any better an idea. What's the benefit? They have been repressed and victimised in the past. What rights of any consequence so they not have now? Their only demand is to not have to share with others. A wealth that would diminish should they choose to leave. The same simple-minded thinking as Scottish independence or Brexit. You either support or oppose all three otherwise you are being intellectually and logically inconsistent. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| Post new Message to Thread |
| back to top |  |
