FabSwingers.com forum: Irish backstop brexit Scottish independence

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Hi all.

Just a thought here but surely Nicola Sturgeon and the snp are the key to solving the brexit fiasco ?

As I am sure in there drive for an independent Scotland within Europe then they must have the solution to preventing not only a hard boarder between Scotland and England. ( although if a hard border is to happen will this be similar to trumps wall with Mexico that everyone is a fronted too) they must also have a solution to the required customs checks and also how we’re going to prevent much needed food and medicine being held up at the borders and ferry ports ( at present time I believe Scotland only has one international ferry terminal in rosyth and no ferry. I haven’t counted cairnryan as ni will I believe still be part of the rest of uk)

Just my thoughts.

And I in no way have any suggestions as to how to solve these problems. but surely every argument to remain in Europe can be used against them as a reason to remain in the union ? I also believe brexit will not happen as the Conservative party or Boris Johnson could go to Europe and get an absolutely golden deal with no draw backs at all and Parliament still would not agree to it.

But I do not believe the Labour Party or Jeremy Corbin have the ability to get a better deal

I think this last year has been a total waste of time and just party politics at its best.

Sorry for the rant and I’m sure I’ll get torn to shreds but some of the more politically aware people on here

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Well that went down well lol

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

"Hi all.

Just a thought here but surely Nicola Sturgeon and the snp are the key to solving the brexit fiasco ?

Just my thoughts.

But I do not believe the Labour Party or Jeremy Corbin have the ability to get a better deal

I think this last year has been a total waste of time and just party politics at its best.

Sorry for the rant and I’m sure I’ll get torn to shreds but some of the more politically aware people on here"

I don't think that the SNP do have a solution.

Just party politics. Convenient for the next step, but no thought to the one after...

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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago

near ipswich

there are plenty on here who are for scottish independence im sure they have the answer.

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By *oguish1Man
over a year ago

Carrigrohane

scottish independence and a united ireland is only a matter of time ...... The great british empire keeps shrinking .....

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral

"scottish independence and a united ireland is only a matter of time ...... The great british empire keeps shrinking ....."
Many years away if it ever happens

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By *ilkysmooth123Man
over a year ago

nr sedbergh

"scottish independence and a united ireland is only a matter of time ...... The great british empire keeps shrinking ....."

United Ireland ? If the north did welcome back the south it wouldnt really be united would it? Unless bloodshed and unrest is 'united' of course.

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By *oguish1Man
over a year ago

Carrigrohane

Ha ... Im from the far south and the UK can hold on to the backward bigots of the north as long as they want ..... It is just a shame it will not be as long a i would like .....

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By *ilkysmooth123Man
over a year ago

nr sedbergh

"Ha ... Im from the far south and the UK can hold on to the backward bigots of the north as long as they want ..... It is just a shame it will not be as long a i would like ..... "

Which of course only goes to prove my point about there not been a united ireland anytime soon.You are from the south,if so is there a genuine appetite in the south to see a united ireland? Thats a genuine question btw.Its interesting to get a perspective from a 'local' so to speak.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Yeh I don’t think they have a solution either but it won’t stop them using it as a stick to beat the government with.

I’m disgusted with the party politics that’s been going on under the guise of doing what’s right for the country. ( unless maybe your country is the EU)

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By *oguish1Man
over a year ago

Carrigrohane

"Ha ... Im from the far south and the UK can hold on to the backward bigots of the north as long as they want ..... It is just a shame it will not be as long a i would like .....

Well it is like this .... Down here if there was a vote then i would say yes to a united ireland ...... However i would never hasen that outcome. Both sides up.there are nothing bit trouble ....

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

The only people who have proposed a hard border between Scotland and England are English politicians in 2014.

Theresa May said England could not consider sharing a border with a country with a different immigration policy, so there would be Border Force check-points.

Ed Milliband said he would put tanks on the border.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"The only people who have proposed a hard border between Scotland and England are English politicians in 2014.

Theresa May said England could not consider sharing a border with a country with a different immigration policy, so there would be Border Force check-points.

Ed Milliband said he would put tanks on the border.

"
excellent then in that case can the snp let us know the solution that they have and we can apply this to the Irish border problem that seems to be the major stumbling block to brexit. Because surely if Scotland gains independence but remains a part of Europe we will have exactly the same problem we face in Northern Ireland just now ??

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The only people who have proposed a hard border between Scotland and England are English politicians in 2014.

Theresa May said England could not consider sharing a border with a country with a different immigration policy, so there would be Border Force check-points.

Ed Milliband said he would put tanks on the border.

excellent then in that case can the snp let us know the solution that they have and we can apply this to the Irish border problem that seems to be the major stumbling block to brexit. Because surely if Scotland gains independence but remains a part of Europe we will have exactly the same problem we face in Northern Ireland just now ?? "

Good point !

Over to you Nichola !

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By *ionaScarletTV/TS
over a year ago

Dundee

"can the snp let us know the solution that they have and we can apply this to the Irish border problem "

Revoke article 50, negotiate with the EU in good faith, and stop acting like children.

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By *asyukMan
over a year ago

West London

"can the snp let us know the solution that they have and we can apply this to the Irish border problem

Revoke article 50, negotiate with the EU in good faith, and stop acting like children.

We know that won't happen either

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By *teveuk77Man
over a year ago

"The only people who have proposed a hard border between Scotland and England are English politicians in 2014.

Theresa May said England could not consider sharing a border with a country with a different immigration policy, so there would be Border Force check-points.

Ed Milliband said he would put tanks on the border.

The "problem" with Ireland is the Good Friday Agreement. How does that impact Scotland/England border?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

So because Scotland doesn’t have any unionist or republican paramilitary groups it’s fine to throw up a hard border between Scotland and England.

But it’s not alright for the usa to build a hard border with Mexico even though there is a huge known problem with drugs and people being smuggled across the border

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

I seem to recall Salmond saying in 2014 it would take 2 years to negotiate a Scottish exit from the UK.

I thought then that was optimistic - Scotland is far more integrated with the UK than the UK is with the EU.

The rUK can make it difficult or easy for Scotland to leave, just as the EU can make it difficult or easy for the UK to leave.

I infer from your post you think Scotland would exit the UK one day and join the EU the next.

I do not think that is realistic, not least because an application to join the EU probably ought to be the subject of a separate vote.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

To be honest I don’t know

From what I hear in the media I think the snp would rather Scotland never left the eu at all and I’m not sure how they plan on leaving the Ruk and somehow holding on to there eu country status. But then the next question is all about how Scotland goes about meeting the requirements to join the eu and signing up to the Lisbon treaty and the signing away of powers that are contained in that. As we keep getting told Scotland is being dragged out of the eu against its will I would imagine a eu referendum would be just be a form filling exercise.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

A Scotland / England border isn't an issue at present, with EU membership being uncertain

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Surly the border between two independent countries is always going to be an issue regardless of eu membership.

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By *evil_u_knowMan
over a year ago

city

Scotland is free to put up a hard border with the UK if they join the EU.

There is no agreement in place to stop that happening.

Ireland and UK are bound by previous peace treaty to do everything in their power to stop a border between the north and republic. Hence the EU must do everything in its power to secure this, hence it wont do a trade deal till the UK can secure it. This holds up Irelands end of the deal as a non actor, and the rest depends on the UK, can they honour their peace agreement or not? Are they even trying to?

So scotland can put a hard border between themselves and England. They would in fact be expected to by the EU. The EU would not in any way move to protect transit between Scotland and England as there is no treaty there in place.

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By *evil_u_knowMan
over a year ago

city

"So because Scotland doesn’t have any unionist or republican paramilitary groups it’s fine to throw up a hard border between Scotland and England.

But it’s not alright for the usa to build a hard border with Mexico even though there is a huge known problem with drugs and people being smuggled across the border "

The GFA is an agreement between the Government of the Republic of Ireland, The Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the people of Northern Ireland.

This agreement meant Ireland gave up its constitutional claim to the North of Ireland. One day Ireland claimed the north as its own, occupied by the UK, the next they claimed it was sovereign UK territory and they had no claim upon it.

In return the UK government agreed to promise to protect democracy in the North, and to always allow free movement of people in the north into the Republic and to guard that right zealously.

Terror groups had nothing to do with the agreement other than amnesty was offered to them in a sign of good will from both sides.

Ill be clear, ALL terror groups were against the GFA. The IRA did not see it as a win, Uninonist groups did not see it as a win.

However the IRA straight away moved to accept the democratic will of the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. Announced immediately their cease fire, and disarmament. They basically viewed it as the defeat of their violent movement and to leave it to politicians.

The GFA was not Ireland and UK losing to terror, it was them defeating terror.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

"Surly the border between two independent countries is always going to be an issue regardless of eu membership. "

Yep.

I went to the old Yugoslavia in July.

What was once a sovereign state now consists of half a dozen or so sovereign states.

I crossed from Croatia to Bosnia Herzegvina by road.

Papers checked by a border checkpoint on the Croatia side and again a few hundred yards away on the Bosnia side.

Same coming back the way.

Passport stamped entering and leaving Bosnia.

No border existed until the turn of the century.

Now it is a border between sovereign states.

Croatia also marks the perimeter of the EU.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

I stand corrected thank you

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By *obletonMan
over a year ago

A Home Among The Woodland Creatures

But it’s not alright for the usa to build a hard border with Mexico even though there is a huge known problem with drugs and people being smuggled across the border "

that's because the drugs and people that cross border between mexico and the US come in via legitimate border crossings - so building a wall would solve precisely nothing.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

But it’s not alright for the usa to build a hard border with Mexico even though there is a huge known problem with drugs and people being smuggled across the border

that's because the drugs and people that cross border between mexico and the US come in via legitimate border crossings - so building a wall would solve precisely nothing."
.

Yes only 80,000 only a month.

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By *obletonMan
over a year ago

A Home Among The Woodland Creatures

But it’s not alright for the usa to build a hard border with Mexico even though there is a huge known problem with drugs and people being smuggled across the border

that's because the drugs and people that cross border between mexico and the US come in via legitimate border crossings - so building a wall would solve precisely nothing..

Yes only 80,000 only a month.

Got a source for that?

Last time I checked, the department of homeland security estimated a total of around 100k (and falling year on year) per year for illegal border crossings.

In contrast - illegal immigration to the US as a result of people overstaying visas was around 700k

If you add the two together you get close to 80k a month so maybe that's where the number has been pulled from

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Just a silly thought.

Why doesn't Boris offer the SNP another referendum in exchange for their support to get his deal through. It would be the lesser of 2 evils, He has thrown the DUP under the NHS bus, so why not chuck the Scottish Conservatives under it too and you never know they might have a bit of sense and decide it's not a terribly good idea ?

Another scottish referendum will be much cheaper than a national one to decide if we stay in the EU. Seems pretty logical if you ask me.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Think about it. It would be much cheaper to have a scottish referendum and you wont have the awful embarrassment of doing another EU referendum. Just the smaller one of a scottish one. The tories will probably be annihilated in Scotland in the GEanyway at the moment so what's not to like about it. If Bojo is so confident in his ability he should walk it.

unless.............. They don't trust him

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

Aint gonna happen for 2 reasons:

a) The Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party would implode

b) The SNP would refuse to be remembered as the ones who voted to take Scotland out of the EU.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

In Scotland, associating yourself with the Tory Party is the kiss of death, as Labour discovered in the 2014 referendum.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

But it’s not alright for the usa to build a hard border with Mexico even though there is a huge known problem with drugs and people being smuggled across the border

that's because the drugs and people that cross border between mexico and the US come in via legitimate border crossings - so building a wall would solve precisely nothing..

Yes only 80,000 only a month.

Got a source for that?

Last time I checked, the department of homeland security estimated a total of around 100k (and falling year on year) per year for illegal border crossings.

In contrast - illegal immigration to the US as a result of people overstaying visas was around 700k

If you add the two together you get close to 80k a month so maybe that's where the number has been pulled from"
.

Interesting, I'll have a Google and see what number it comes up with.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"In Scotland, associating yourself with the Tory Party is the kiss of death, as Labour discovered in the 2014 referendum.

If reports are right they are a bout to get a big smackeroo from SNP and Lib dems.

One final thing and I know this will never happen before you start. Any referendum should be 3 boxes and 2nd preference

A complete independence with own prime minister and Parliament. Queen to stay as head of state

B negotiated settlement (terms to be decided (devolvement + or negotiated leave)

C remain in the UK union as things are.

There you go. That would be a real referendum wouldn't it

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

No need.

In the 2014 referendum, the Yes side published a White Paper.

500 or 600 pages long.

Setting out the process, what would change and what would remain the same.

So people had a clear idea of what they were voting for, or against.

Which cannot be said of the UK-wide referendum held two years later.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Re the idea of SNP trading a referendum against supporting the Tories- never, ever. They are polar opposites- fundamentally the SNP are socialist while the Tories are right wing capitalists. Will never be bed-fellows. EVER.

Think you have to have lived in Scotland, as I have, to understand the consequences of losing the independence referendum. Overnight the Conservatives reversed all promises given for a No vote and lied and misled the UK public. Apart from that, a reasonably large number of people have parties to celebrate Thatcher’s death, so much was she hated. I find that repugnant but it’s a fact. Scotland is a socialist country, England is not.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Add to that, the Conservatives are now voting to revoke some of the deferred articles and return their governance to Westminster. Slowly, they are feeding the independence vote.

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By *icklybitMan
over a year ago

Ayrshire

"No need.

In the 2014 referendum, the Yes side published a White Paper.

500 or 600 pages long.

Setting out the process, what would change and what would remain the same.

So people had a clear idea of what they were voting for, or against.

Which cannot be said of the UK-wide referendum held two years later.

Its still available, looking back its hilarious how much it has unravelled.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi-xaujtr7lAhW7QUEAHW1bBcsQFjAJegQIBBAC&usg=AOvVaw0Y1PXbmsT3hh_VSrKe5f7g

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

Its still available, looking back its hilarious how much it has unravelled. "

A lot of wishful thinking with hindsight, I'm sure.

The Nats need to learn from those mistakes for the next edition.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I was chatting with Mrs N about scottish indeeependence while the debate was going on. Nicola Sturgeon Piped up that she wanted to uphold the will of the scottish people and stop Brexit. That's odd Mrs N said. How come they want independence from the England and yet want to tie themselves to another organisation. Sounds a bit of a nonsense if you ask me. I thought what a wise lady she is.

It will be interesting to see how many extra seats if any the SNP get.

It's very ironic that the party that had devolution as a big part of it's 1997 manifesto has ended up nearly being annihilated in Scotland. And now has the cheek to blame the Tories for the break up of the union. And........ they can't blame FPP for it either as the scottish Parliament is elected using PR. All rather strange. Perhaps Scotland should go off on it's own, if that's what they really want to do.

However I don't think the EU will be very keen to welcome them. The precedence of what is going on in Catalan means that breakaway states are just not the done thing, Spain will be very unhappy and would surely veto any such application for many a year.

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By *evil_u_knowMan
over a year ago

city

"How come they want independence from the England and yet want to tie themselves to another organisation. Sounds a bit of a nonsense if you ask me. I thought what a wise lady she is.

They think their say inside the UK is less than their say inside the EU, and there is a logic to why they think that.

Like Ireland, it has a population of 4 million, but it is in a trade market of a billion people and has ground the whole of the EU to a halt to get its voice heard. Scotland would like to try protect things like their scotch industry, and the EU would have more weight to do so, etc etc.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I was chatting with Mrs N about scottish indeeependence while the debate was going on. Nicola Sturgeon Piped up that she wanted to uphold the will of the scottish people and stop Brexit. That's odd Mrs N said. How come they want independence from the England and yet want to tie themselves to another organisation. Sounds a bit of a nonsense if you ask me. I thought what a wise lady she is.

There lies the whole problem of Brexit, people just do not understand.

Scottish independence and EU membership cannot be compared as their not even in the same ball park comparison wise.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

The United Kingdom and the European Union.

Two Unions.

The first, where sovereignty is totally centralised, where power is concentrated at the centre and the member states (except England) are powerless as a result.

The second where sovereignty resides in the member states, not the centre, where each has an equal vote, albeit with a weighting by population share.

Sovereignty.

The UK never lost any.

Scotland did.

Time to take it back

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By *ionaScarletTV/TS
over a year ago

Dundee

It will be interesting to see how many extra seats if any the SNP get.

Thank goodness you are here to engsplain our politics for us. Between weaving shortbread and baking t it's really all just such a muddle...

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Thank goodness you are here to engsplain our politics for us. Between weaving shortbread and baking t it's really all just such a muddle...

engsplain, love it!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I was chatting with Mrs N about scottish indeeependence while the debate was going on. Nicola Sturgeon...........etc "

Bless. Perhaps there should be rules for voting in an election, or a test of understanding of politics and history, including big words like EU and why the party with the majority is the ‘winner’, and not the ‘loser’. But hey, always been so.....

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