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Why are people obsessed with a GE to settle brexit?

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

It's clear that brexit will just get thrown in with uncosted manifesto pledges.

Effectively a bidding/bribe war to try and maximise votes from the public.

Am I the only one who is sat here and thinking the second referendum is now clearly the best option, then we can have a GE on domestic issues.

Have the referendum be legally binding, the wording and options proposed have to be ratified by the electoral commission and legal experts.

Consult the law upon what conventions to follow to set as the threshold to say that there is a majority.

Then ensure that parties have to respect the result and work to implement it if they wish to take part in the following GE.

I think leave would still win.

But even I'm getting tired of arguing which mandate is legitimate. The referendum result from 3 years ago, under a different government, or the 2017 GE result under, again, a different government.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"It's clear that brexit will just get thrown in with uncosted manifesto pledges.

Effectively a bidding/bribe war to try and maximise votes from the public.

Am I the only one who is sat here and thinking the second referendum is now clearly the best option, then we can have a GE on domestic issues.

Have the referendum be legally binding, the wording and options proposed have to be ratified by the electoral commission and legal experts.

Consult the law upon what conventions to follow to set as the threshold to say that there is a majority.

Then ensure that parties have to respect the result and work to implement it if they wish to take part in the following GE.

I think leave would still win.

But even I'm getting tired of arguing which mandate is legitimate. The referendum result from 3 years ago, under a different government, or the 2017 GE result under, again, a different government."

I tend to agree that the only simple solution is to have a second legally binding referendum, if only to cut through the circular arguments of both leavers and remainers and draw a line under this shit show. Of course that’s supposing that anyone can decide what the questions should be! Perhaps a royal commission would have been the best choice in order to restrain the tribalism we face and to give us a third party non-political option? Cameron really was a bit thick wasnt he!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Opinion not option (my bad)

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

I totally agree.

Johnson (and May before him) have been unable to get consensus in the House or in the Conservative Party and similarly Corbyn cannot get consensus in the Labour Party. These things won’t change with a General Election and in fact there is a very real danger of the really important issues like NHS, taxation and all the critical domestic and foreign policy issues that a GE is supposed to focus on actually getting lost because of the single issue that is winding everybody up.

If there was a way to take Brexit out of Party politics then yes, let’s have an election. Get ready for another election in two years (or less) if the GE is Brexit dominated.

It is madness not to recognise that Brexit is the underlying symptom of the current divisions (chasms even) in society and that needs to be dealt with as a stand-alone issue for the country can start to think about the next five years and the other really important matters.

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By *losguygl3Man
over a year ago

Gloucester


"Cameron really was a bit thick wasnt he! "

No. Cameron pulled a genius move. After dropping us all in the shit, he fucked off to a foreign beach holiday with a guaranteed income for life!

Bastard!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I'm going to play devil's advocate here.

It takes quite a while to get a referendum organised. Firstly, parliament needs to pass a law to hold one.

We are currently due to exit the EU on 31st October.

'But parliament has passed it's anti no deal law, forcing Boris to ask the EU for an extension' I hear you all cry

Indeed, but the EU aren't REQUIRED to grant such an extension, and when they gave the last one, they specifically told us not to waste the time.

How much time since April has parliament actually spent in dealing with matters Brexit?

Not much.

We had an Easter Recess, a Whitsun recess and a 6 week summer recess.

The conservatives had their leadership contest and now parliament is prorogued - and if it wasn't, they'd all be heading into recess for their precious conferences.

I will grant you, however, that exceptional circumstances that may persuade them to grant such an extension would be either a general election or a referendum, though I would not be surprised if the EU might be beginning to lose patience, as are most of the UK electorate, with the lack of progress our parliament is making.

It seems that parliament, or at least those in opposition parties, intend to sit on their hands (despite their protestations over prorogation) until AFTER 31st October so that they can use the PM's failure to deliver on his promise to get us out on that date to damage the conservatives at an inevitable General election.

I am of the opinion that this will massively backfire on them all, as we are all aware that parliament has deliberately brought in legislation that will hamper the PM's ability to get any movement from the EU and it is those remainer MP's who are preventing him from delivering on brexit.

With this in mind, at the point at which the Prime Minister is FORCED, by the recently introduced law, to ask the EU for a further extension, he will be unable to cite a general election or a referendum as justification for such an extension (especially as the wording of his letter has been specifically defined by legislation) as parliament has agreed to neither.

So, let's just say, for the sake of argument, that the PM asks for an extension and the EU is of the opinion that any such extension will, as with the last two, will not result in any further progress, they may decide to refuse to grant one.

And remember that it takes just one member state to veto such a request for it to be denied.

We can not automatically assume that an extension will be granted.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East


"

It takes quite a while to get a referendum organised.

"

A minimum of six months, according to the Electoral Commission, from the decision to hold one to the day of the ballot.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

A referendum can only solve a Brexit question

A General Election can only sort out the policy of Governance for day to day issues

Merging the two creates a bloody mess

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston


"

It takes quite a while to get a referendum organised.

A minimum of six months, according to the Electoral Commission, from the decision to hold one to the day of the ballot.

"

That is clearly poppycock!

If it were true it would take 6 months to organise every general election, and clearly it doesn't. In reality it could be done in 3 weeks (just like general elections).

As for the how:

We may need 2 (legally binding) votes, the first a simple in/out vote based on what we now know, the second a deal/no deal vote again based on what we know.

As for the legislation, I expect a single or 2 page bill is all that is needed. Of course it would need a 3rd clause making it a criminal act punishable by life in prison (without possibility of release or pardon) and forfeiture of all property for knowing disseminating falsehoods or hiding information regarding the cost of leaving the EU both with and without a deal.

But there is not the political will to do this.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

Different electoral roll.

Different count.

Different registration of official groups.

Different spending rules.

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By *illwill69uMan
over a year ago

moston


"Different electoral roll.

Different count.

Different registration of official groups.

Different spending rules.

"

Excuses to justify not going through another referendum. And just explain how piling ballots into 4 piles, in and out, deal and no deal, then counting counting them differs from the counts we have now? In fact I would say 2 binary counts would be much easier than the normal election with multiple candidates on a ballot. And why does a different electoral roll take 6 months to do? After all in a normal election it is opened for later registration and is done in days.

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By *evil_u_knowMan
over a year ago

city

Unless there is a plan to vote on, then all elections are totally pointless.

Imagine the EU zone running the lisbon treaty referendum without a lisbon treaty written down, instead saying "Do you agree to the treaty we will write in lison this year?"

Thats basically brexit summed up.

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

Agreed. We need a referendum with exact, evidenced options for hard Brexit, soft Brexit, and remain.

All of us who work have probably been involved in a project or incident where things went wrong due to lack of planning/preparation in some way. What we do then is reset and do things again properly, not plough on regardless causing even more mess.

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By *teveuk77Man
over a year ago

uk


"A referendum can only solve a Brexit question

A General Election can only sort out the policy of Governance for day to day issues

Merging the two creates a bloody mess "

exactly which is why it annoys me when people use stats like 80% of people voted in the last GE for "Brexit" parties. I voted for a "Brexit" party. Do I want Brexit? Absolutely not. If there was another General Election I would vote for an "On the fence" party. Why? Because my seat is Labour and at risk from the SNP. What's my options? Certainly not Lib Dems!

A General Election could easily result in a hung parliament where the Tories couldn't find a majority and Lib Dems wouldn't help Corbyn form a Government.

Brexit can only be solved by a referendum.

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By *apiomanMan
over a year ago

Shipley


"I'm going to play devil's advocate here.

It takes quite a while to get a referendum organised. Firstly, parliament needs to pass a law to hold one.

We are currently due to exit the EU on 31st October.

'But parliament has passed it's anti no deal law, forcing Boris to ask the EU for an extension' I hear you all cry

Indeed, but the EU aren't REQUIRED to grant such an extension, and when they gave the last one, they specifically told us not to waste the time.

How much time since April has parliament actually spent in dealing with matters Brexit?

Not much.

We had an Easter Recess, a Whitsun recess and a 6 week summer recess.

The conservatives had their leadership contest and now parliament is prorogued - and if it wasn't, they'd all be heading into recess for their precious conferences.

I will grant you, however, that exceptional circumstances that may persuade them to grant such an extension would be either a general election or a referendum, though I would not be surprised if the EU might be beginning to lose patience, as are most of the UK electorate, with the lack of progress our parliament is making.

It seems that parliament, or at least those in opposition parties, intend to sit on their hands (despite their protestations over prorogation) until AFTER 31st October so that they can use the PM's failure to deliver on his promise to get us out on that date to damage the conservatives at an inevitable General election.

I am of the opinion that this will massively backfire on them all, as we are all aware that parliament has deliberately brought in legislation that will hamper the PM's ability to get any movement from the EU and it is those remainer MP's who are preventing him from delivering on brexit.

With this in mind, at the point at which the Prime Minister is FORCED, by the recently introduced law, to ask the EU for a further extension, he will be unable to cite a general election or a referendum as justification for such an extension (especially as the wording of his letter has been specifically defined by legislation) as parliament has agreed to neither.

So, let's just say, for the sake of argument, that the PM asks for an extension and the EU is of the opinion that any such extension will, as with the last two, will not result in any further progress, they may decide to refuse to grant one.

And remember that it takes just one member state to veto such a request for it to be denied.

We can not automatically assume that an extension will be granted.

"

In my view the EU will grant an extension to stop a hard boarder in Ireland whilst the UK perhaps sorts it’s shit out. The fact parliamentary arithmetic has changed since the purge of the remainer Tory MPs, which is a factor too.

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By *apiomanMan
over a year ago

Shipley

I agree that a GE should be wider than Brexit. However, will a second referendum solve the issue? If remain won, leave will be in uproar and demand the best of three.

L.

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By *apiomanMan
over a year ago

Shipley

A cynical part of me thinks we should let Johnson and his Dom lead us to a crashing out, and when the shit hits the fan we can overthrow this rotten system as people will quickly realise they were sold a lie and have been completely screwed by what is actually a well insulated from the reality of the mess elite.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

In my view the EU will grant an extension to stop a hard boarder in Ireland whilst the UK perhaps sorts it’s shit out. The fact parliamentary arithmetic has changed since the purge of the remainer Tory MPs, which is a factor too. "

But Boris has a major minority government now and not all the MP's that he sacked we're remainers either.

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By *dam and slutCouple
over a year ago

Manchester

Marty, I just got back from 2045 in future, their still talking about having another referendum.

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

If there is to be an extension, my view is that the extension offered will not be until the end of January. It will be a very long extension of a year or more. The reality is that a three month extension is actually meaningless. Nothing will change between the end of October and the end of January - other than I will have built a new greenhouse.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

General Elections aren’t worth anything until we have a truly fair percentage voting system !

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By *ony 2016Man
over a year ago

Huddersfield /derby cinemas

The main problem that the remain camp will have in another referendum is if they intend to use the project fear strategy the used in the 2016 , it has now been blown out of the water and shown to be tame and no where near as scary as the leavers very own yellowhammer report

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

A referendum and a separate general election would be appropriate. The current Article 50 should be cancelled as there is realistically insufficient time to achieve negotiations and implement alternative outcomes.

Cancelling Article 50 would require a confident leadership but the UK needs this more than ever. If the second referendum gets a clearer result to finalise leaving, whichever party is in government should then only continue by including all parties through the stages towards leaving. Last time they didn't and the results showed that division, on top of political division.

It would need pre!agreed facts, to prevent campaign lies, as well as definite and clearer separation between the 2 choices.

UK politicians are typically weak in their frequent refrain from leadership - many of them using an arrogant bully's style instead. Collaborative working helps to lead.

We've got a few weeks to create a new option and be ready? And for this to truly be the best for the UK? Fantasy. Learn from the experience and move on. But this time, have a plan - unlike the last 3 conservative leaders have not had.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"

In my view the EU will grant an extension to stop a hard boarder in Ireland whilst the UK perhaps sorts it’s shit out. The fact parliamentary arithmetic has changed since the purge of the remainer Tory MPs, which is a factor too.

But Boris has a major minority government now and not all the MP's that he sacked we're remainers either. "
..

what's a major minority government !

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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago

Derby


"It's clear that brexit will just get thrown in with uncosted manifesto pledges.

Effectively a bidding/bribe war to try and maximise votes from the public.

Am I the only one who is sat here and thinking the second referendum is now clearly the best option, then we can have a GE on domestic issues.

Have the referendum be legally binding, the wording and options proposed have to be ratified by the electoral commission and legal experts.

Consult the law upon what conventions to follow to set as the threshold to say that there is a majority.

Then ensure that parties have to respect the result and work to implement it if they wish to take part in the following GE.

I think leave would still win.

But even I'm getting tired of arguing which mandate is legitimate. The referendum result from 3 years ago, under a different government, or the 2017 GE result under, again, a different government.

I tend to agree that the only simple solution is to have a second legally binding referendum, if only to cut through the circular arguments of both leavers and remainers and draw a line under this shit show. Of course that’s supposing that anyone can decide what the questions should be! Perhaps a royal commission would have been the best choice in order to restrain the tribalism we face and to give us a third party non-political option? Cameron really was a bit thick wasnt he! "

But on what basis would the result be legally binding?

What I mean is this-

Would there be a requirement for a minimum turnout to make it binding? What would that turnout be?

Then what would be the requirement for the percentage of people voting be to make the result binding?

What would the requirement for the proportion of the electorate be?

And finally, what would be the start point? Leavers would say the start point should be "we are leaving, so the vote should be whether to change that", whereas as remainers would say " we are still members of the EU, so the vote should be whether to change that".

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We need an election Brexit or not. Sort out the MPs that are voting against the wishes of their voters,and them that have changed parties. Parliament is a mess needs resetting.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The main problem that the remain camp will have in another referendum is if they intend to use the project fear strategy the used in the 2016 , it has now been blown out of the water and shown to be tame and no where near as scary as the leavers very own yellowhammer report "

The Express labeled Yellowhammer as project fear. It's unbelievable.

Anyone who still thinks that Brexit is a good idea is a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic.

But likely will all vote for it again. I would guess that nothing has been learned.

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By *heBirminghamWeekendMan
over a year ago

here


"The main problem that the remain camp will have in another referendum is if they intend to use the project fear strategy the used in the 2016 , it has now been blown out of the water and shown to be tame and no where near as scary as the leavers very own yellowhammer report

The Express labeled Yellowhammer as project fear. It's unbelievable.

Anyone who still thinks that Brexit is a good idea is a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic.

But likely will all vote for it again. I would guess that nothing has been learned."

Must really piss you off being surrounded by so many people who don’t have a clue and won’t even try to learn differently.

How do you cope?

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East


"Different electoral roll.

Different count.

Different registration of official groups.

Different spending rules.

Excuses to justify not going through another referendum. And just explain how piling ballots into 4 piles, in and out, deal and no deal, then counting counting them differs from the counts we have now? In fact I would say 2 binary counts would be much easier than the normal election with multiple candidates on a ballot. And why does a different electoral roll take 6 months to do? After all in a normal election it is opened for later registration and is done in days. "

This is what the Electoral Commission states.

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral


"I totally agree.

Johnson (and May before him) have been unable to get consensus in the House or in the Conservative Party and similarly Corbyn cannot get consensus in the Labour Party. These things won’t change with a General Election and in fact there is a very real danger of the really important issues like NHS, taxation and all the critical domestic and foreign policy issues that a GE is supposed to focus on actually getting lost because of the single issue that is winding everybody up.

If there was a way to take Brexit out of Party politics then yes, let’s have an election. Get ready for another election in two years (or less) if the GE is Brexit dominated.

It is madness not to recognise that Brexit is the underlying symptom of the current divisions (chasms even) in society and that needs to be dealt with as a stand-alone issue for the country can start to think about the next five years and the other really important matters."

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral


"A referendum and a separate general election would be appropriate. The current Article 50 should be cancelled as there is realistically insufficient time to achieve negotiations and implement alternative outcomes.

Cancelling Article 50 would require a confident leadership but the UK needs this more than ever. If the second referendum gets a clearer result to finalise leaving, whichever party is in government should then only continue by including all parties through the stages towards leaving. Last time they didn't and the results showed that division, on top of political division.

It would need pre!agreed facts, to prevent campaign lies, as well as definite and clearer separation between the 2 choices.

UK politicians are typically weak in their frequent refrain from leadership - many of them using an arrogant bully's style instead. Collaborative working helps to lead.

We've got a few weeks to create a new option and be ready? And for this to truly be the best for the UK? Fantasy. Learn from the experience and move on. But this time, have a plan - unlike the last 3 conservative leaders have not had. "
The big problem is now that parliament is so divided it is incapable of dealing with all these issues,collective responsibility has gone out the window.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"A referendum and a separate general election would be appropriate. The current Article 50 should be cancelled as there is realistically insufficient time to achieve negotiations and implement alternative outcomes.

Cancelling Article 50 would require a confident leadership but the UK needs this more than ever. If the second referendum gets a clearer result to finalise leaving, whichever party is in government should then only continue by including all parties through the stages towards leaving. Last time they didn't and the results showed that division, on top of political division.

It would need pre!agreed facts, to prevent campaign lies, as well as definite and clearer separation between the 2 choices.

UK politicians are typically weak in their frequent refrain from leadership - many of them using an arrogant bully's style instead. Collaborative working helps to lead.

We've got a few weeks to create a new option and be ready? And for this to truly be the best for the UK? Fantasy. Learn from the experience and move on. But this time, have a plan - unlike the last 3 conservative leaders have not had. The big problem is now that parliament is so divided it is incapable of dealing with all these issues,collective responsibility has gone out the window."

Unusually for me but I do agree with you for once. Parliament is hopelessly divided, the government has no working majority and the political parties have no idea what to do next. The only option that is pragmatic is to cancel the whole thing, with the promise to hold a second referendum after a royal commission has worked out what questions should be asked and has come up with an exit strategy. I know all the leavers will see this as undemocratic but as I strongly believe that we were lied to about the EU by the Brexiteers and therefore they effectively cheated the democratic process and won by foul means then it seems only fair to cancel the referendum and hold another with more considered and honest facts. Also on a final note, if Brexiteers think that this would be undemocratic I would love to know why legally it would be?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"The main problem that the remain camp will have in another referendum is if they intend to use the project fear strategy the used in the 2016 , it has now been blown out of the water and shown to be tame and no where near as scary as the leavers very own yellowhammer report

The Express labeled Yellowhammer as project fear. It's unbelievable.

Anyone who still thinks that Brexit is a good idea is a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic.

But likely will all vote for it again. I would guess that nothing has been learned.

Must really piss you off being surrounded by so many people who don’t have a clue and won’t even try to learn differently.

How do you cope?"

Only when they drag the entire nation down.

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