FabSwingers.com forum: Prison Reform

By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Simple solution bring back national service if people want to use knives and guns then they can fight for our country. We are struggling to find new recruits.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

So you want criminals serving time in the Army rather than a prison?

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By *omaMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

I think the OP means using national service as a way of teaching the younger ones the meaning of discipline and responsibility before the start offending.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"So you want criminals serving time in the Army rather than a prison?"

Who would you be scared of most a prison warden or a Sargent Major. Army training camps. Learn discipline, morals, a trade and self worth. Prison is no longer a deterrent.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

So you want to conscript youngsters with an unhealthy interest in knife and gun crime and train them how to kill people properly?

Hmmm, let me think about that . . .

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"I think the OP means using national service as a way of teaching the younger ones the meaning of discipline and responsibility before the start offending.

Yes thank you national citizen service x

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

Switzerland and Germany plus France are in talks to bring national service back. There has to be a better solution than building more prisons give a person a purpose and hopefully they will thrive x

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

Intervention of the type you seek is most effective from the age of three years.

At birth, a child's brain is 1/4 formed. By the age of 5 years it is 3/4 formed and by the age of 7 the brain is pretty well shaped for life.

"Show me the boy and I will show you the man"

This is the science behind the saying.

This is why early intervention programmes aimed at children growing up in "at risk" circumstances are the most effective of any social policy in terms of trying to shape more responsible adult behaviour.

Unfortunately, over the past decade this government and its predecessor pulled the plug on a huge number of programmes that were very successful.

So now a whole new generation is reaching adulthood without the benefit of that early intervention.

The response of the right is as predictable as it is blind to the consequences of it's own actions - demand more police, demand more prison places, demand National Service blah blah.

Too late. The time to intervene is age 7 and below.

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By *ony 2016Man
over a year ago

Huddersfield /derby cinemas

It does sound a good idea , doing national service will stop people going to prison ..... However a question that must be answered is ,,, why are so many ex military in prison ?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"It does sound a good idea , doing national service will stop people going to prison ..... However a question that must be answered is ,,, why are so many ex military in prison ? "

Because of ptsd and not being looked after when they leave the armed forces. I am thinking more boot camp or military school x

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By *V-AliceTV/TS
over a year ago

Ayr

"Simple solution bring back national service if people want to use knives and guns then they can fight for our country. We are struggling to find new recruits. "

Simple is right.

Solution isn't.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

"It does sound a good idea , doing national service will stop people going to prison ..... However a question that must be answered is ,,, why are so many ex military in prison ?

Because of ptsd and not being looked after when they leave the armed forces. I am thinking more boot camp or military school x"

Sounds more like borstal.

Do you really want the Army to have a reputation for being the place where you go to be punished by society?

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"It does sound a good idea , doing national service will stop people going to prison ..... However a question that must be answered is ,,, why are so many ex military in prison ?

Because of ptsd and not being looked after when they leave the armed forces. I am thinking more boot camp or military school x

Sounds more like borstal.

Do you really want the Army to have a reputation for being the place where you go to be punished by society?"

It is not a punishment more an education public services learning a trade team building etc giving something back. I have family with in the armed forces it is more than jus fighting but career making x

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

I don't doubt that. It's their choice. It should not be compulsory.

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By *uck-RogersMan
over a year ago

Oakhill

I think it should be. And so do a lot of other people.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"So you want criminals serving time in the Army rather than a prison?

Who would you be scared of most a prison warden or a Sargent Major. Army training camps. Learn discipline, morals, a trade and self worth. Prison is no longer a deterrent."

Shouldn't we teach them that stuff before they turn to crime?!

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"It does sound a good idea , doing national service will stop people going to prison ..... However a question that must be answered is ,,, why are so many ex military in prison ?

Because of ptsd and not being looked after when they leave the armed forces. I am thinking more

boot camp or military school x"

So you just want to delay them ending up in prison?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I think National Service is a good idea, finish school and if no University place or further education then it's 3 years or so of National Service.

I'm not in favour of putting criminal's in the forces though, they need their own torturous punishment regime.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I bet no Etonians or wealthy kids will ever have to do it.

It’ll be just the working class they want to condition to be compliant

It seems we are going back to the 50s what next beating children with canes in school.

Classy and progressive.

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral

I believe we should bring back conscription but for it to be a task force run with strict discipline.They would tidy rubbish,repaire holes in roads etc,save councils a fortune.Also help out with problems like helping when floods occur etc

They would be under the same discipline as the army but would not fight for the country or carry arms.

Some may like this and would get easy entry into the forces already qualified in some areas.

As for the cost the jobs they do would save local councils and free up the army for more important work.

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral

"I bet no Etonians or wealthy kids will ever have to do it.

It’ll be just the working class they want to condition to be compliant

It seems we are going back to the 50s what next beating children with canes in school.

Classy and progressive.

"
I doubt if any Etonians leave without qualifications

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I bet no Etonians or wealthy kids will ever have to do it.

It’ll be just the working class they want to condition to be compliant

It seems we are going back to the 50s what next beating children with canes in school.

Classy and progressive.

I doubt if any Etonians leave without qualifications"

So it’s a punishment.Would kids with learning difficulties also be conscripts .

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

"I believe we should bring back conscription but for it to be a task force run with strict discipline.They would tidy rubbish,repaire holes in roads etc,save councils a fortune.Also help out with problems like helping when floods occur etc

They would be under the same discipline as the army but would not fight for the country or carry arms.

Some may like this and would get easy entry into the forces already qualified in some areas.

As for the cost the jobs they do would save local councils and free up the army for more important work."

Oh, you mean create public-sector jobs in the community?

That's a great idea.

I'm all for that.

I'm all for paying them a wage, too.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

They would be under the same discipline as the army but would not fight for the country or carry arms.

Some may like this and would get easy entry into the forces already qualified in some areas.

As for the cost the jobs they do would save local councils and free up the army for more important work."

I love this idea x

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By *omaMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

"Intervention of the type you seek is most effective from the age of three years.

At birth, a child's brain is 1/4 formed. By the age of 5 years it is 3/4 formed and by the age of 7 the brain is pretty well shaped for life.

"Show me the boy and I will show you the man"

This is the science behind the saying.

Unfortunately, over the past decade this government and its predecessor pulled the plug on a huge number of programmes that were very successful.

So now a whole new generation is reaching adulthood without the benefit of that early intervention.

The response of the right is as predictable as it is blind to the consequences of it's own actions - demand more police, demand more prison places, demand National Service blah blah.

Too late. The time to intervene is age 7 and below."

It's not only a government responsibility, parents must share the blame too for today's youngsters. . Everything starts at home.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

It's not only a government responsibility, parents must share the blame too for today's youngsters. . Everything starts at home. "

It becomes a Government responsibility when people are talking about more prisons, national service etc.

The reality is a lot of children are born into dysfunctional homes.

Now, the state can wash its hands when that child is a nipper, go tut tut at the parent and then spend a fortune dealing with the consequences when they become an adult.

Or it can step into the vacuum when they are little and try to steer them onto a more responsible pattern of behaviour.

All the evidence shows it is more cost-effective nurturing them as a child than it is punishing them as an adult.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

"Intervention of the type you seek is most effective from the age of three years.

At birth, a child's brain is 1/4 formed. By the age of 5 years it is 3/4 formed and by the age of 7 the brain is pretty well shaped for life.

"Show me the boy and I will show you the man"

This is the science behind the saying.

Unfortunately, over the past decade this government and its predecessor pulled the plug on a huge number of programmes that were very successful.

So now a whole new generation is reaching adulthood without the benefit of that early intervention.

The response of the right is as predictable as it is blind to the consequences of it's own actions - demand more police, demand more prison places, demand National Service blah blah.

Too late. The time to intervene is age 7 and below.

It's not only a government responsibility, parents must share the blame too for today's youngsters. . Everything starts at home. "

We need to go back to basics. Secure homes good education good health and to feel safe. Boundaries and discipline and morals when needed and I am not on about corporal punishment but good parenting. We need to build communities back up where we all look out for each other. I know I am idealistic and wishful thinking x

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

"Intervention of the type you seek is most effective from the age of three years.

At birth, a child's brain is 1/4 formed. By the age of 5 years it is 3/4 formed and by the age of 7 the brain is pretty well shaped for life.

"Show me the boy and I will show you the man"

This is the science behind the saying.

Unfortunately, over the past decade this government and its predecessor pulled the plug on a huge number of programmes that were very successful.

So now a whole new generation is reaching adulthood without the benefit of that early intervention.

The response of the right is as predictable as it is blind to the consequences of it's own actions - demand more police, demand more prison places, demand National Service blah blah.

Too late. The time to intervene is age 7 and below.

It's not only a government responsibility, parents must share the blame too for today's youngsters. . Everything starts at home.

I agree.

But unless you intervene at the early age, the child will grow up to repeat the same dysfunctional cycle of deprivation as the parent.

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

It is all about strong foundations

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

They would be under the same discipline as the army but would not fight for the country or carry arms.

Some may like this and would get easy entry into the forces already qualified in some areas.

As for the cost the jobs they do would save local councils and free up the army for more important work.

I love this idea x"

Conscription but for public services instead of the army.

Kind of like the scouts. Sounds good. But not sure making in mandatory is the right approach.

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By *retty GoodMan
over a year ago

Cardiff Bay

"Intervention of the type you seek is most effective from the age of three years.

At birth, a child's brain is 1/4 formed. By the age of 5 years it is 3/4 formed and by the age of 7 the brain is pretty well shaped for life.

"Show me the boy and I will show you the man"

This is the science behind the saying.

Unfortunately, over the past decade this government and its predecessor pulled the plug on a huge number of programmes that were very successful.

So now a whole new generation is reaching adulthood without the benefit of that early intervention.

The response of the right is as predictable as it is blind to the consequences of it's own actions - demand more police, demand more prison places, demand National Service blah blah.

Too late. The time to intervene is age 7 and below.

It's not only a government responsibility, parents must share the blame too for today's youngsters. . Everything starts at home.

I agree.

But unless you intervene at the early age, the child will grow up to repeat the same dysfunctional cycle of deprivation as the parent.

Sorry only asking as I don’t know, but what is the early intervention thing ?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Children’s social care has been seriously underfunded for a decade .Maybe we should look to funding this properly before we decide the stick is better than the carrot.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

Sorry only asking as I don’t know, but what is the early intervention thing ? "

Programmes to support the child (and usually the mother, too) from the earliest age.

Stuff like Surestart, for example, which offered a range of support measures to stabilise the child's upbringing.

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By *retty GoodMan
over a year ago

Cardiff Bay

Sorry only asking as I don’t know, but what is the early intervention thing ?

Programmes to support the child (and usually the mother, too) from the earliest age.

Stuff like Surestart, for example, which offered a range of support measures to stabilise the child's upbringing.

Ok help and support sounds good, how would a child or mother qualify?

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

The "at risk" cases emerge during the pregnancy phase when the mother comes into contact with the healthcare system, leading to a wrap-a-around package for the child's early years in conjunction with social services.

Or at least it did. Until all the funding was removed.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It seems we are going back to the 50s what next beating children with canes in school.

Classy and progressive.

I wonder if behaviour in schools was better as a result, I'd hazard a guess it was

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By *retty GoodMan
over a year ago

Cardiff Bay

"The "at risk" cases emerge during the pregnancy phase when the mother comes into contact with the healthcare system, leading to a wrap-a-around package for the child's early years in conjunction with social services.

Or at least it did. Until all the funding was removed.

Ok thanks is the help financial or something else , just not sure what can really change peoples attitudes or behaviour, some I’m sure but not sure how much really. But all in favour of trying to raise a better generation

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

The perception of feral kids on the streets in 2019 was one of the most predictable consequences of the 2010 ideological austerity measures.

The war on poverty fought by the previous generation became a war on the poor, aided and abetted by the "scrounger" propaganda whenever you turned on the television or opened a newspaper.

We were encouraged to believe the poor were to blame for the reckless greed of the rich.

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By *sGivesWoodWoman
over a year ago

ST. AUSTELL, CORNWALL

"I think the OP means using national service as a way of teaching the younger ones the meaning of discipline and responsibility before the start offending.

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By *retty GoodMan
over a year ago

Cardiff Bay

"The perception of feral kids on the streets in 2019 was one of the most predictable consequences of the 2010 ideological austerity measures.

The war on poverty fought by the previous generation became a war on the poor, aided and abetted by the "scrounger" propaganda whenever you turned on the television or opened a newspaper.

We were encouraged to believe the poor were to blame for the reckless greed of the rich.

I’m sorry but I don’t remember all that

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It seems we are going back to the 50s what next beating children with canes in school.

Classy and progressive.

I wonder if behaviour in schools was better as a result, I'd hazard a guess it was

Hitting children teaches them that might makes right.

If you think that’s the best way to get the behaviour you want out of kids I wonder why it’s illegal in most countries..

Have you ever taken a hand to your children or belt.??

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It seems we are going back to the 50s what next beating children with canes in school.

Classy and progressive.

I wonder if behaviour in schools was better as a result, I'd hazard a guess it was

Hitting children teaches them that might makes right.

If you think that’s the best way to get the behaviour you want out of kids I wonder why it’s illegal in most countries..

Have you ever taken a hand to your children or belt.??

It might be illegal in most countries but I'd put the question again. I wonder if class behaviour was better when teachers and Nuns ruled with the cane?

I'd hazard a guess it was

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

It seems we are going back to the 50s what next beating children with canes in school.

Classy and progressive.

I wonder if behaviour in schools was better as a result, I'd hazard a guess it was

Hitting children teaches them that might makes right.

If you think that’s the best way to get the behaviour you want out of kids I wonder why it’s illegal in most countries..

Have you ever taken a hand to your children or belt.??

Never no need to but I am not talking just about discipline I am talking about the bigger picture. Young offenders on the cusp if we can catch them before they do something stupid that could ruin their lives for ever. Murders and worse can rot in jail. Stabbings on a weekly basis is not right and the youths should be aware of the consequences x

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By *retty GoodMan
over a year ago

Cardiff Bay

It seems we are going back to the 50s what next beating children with canes in school.

Classy and progressive.

I wonder if behaviour in schools was better as a result, I'd hazard a guess it was

Hitting children teaches them that might makes right.

If you think that’s the best way to get the behaviour you want out of kids I wonder why it’s illegal in most countries..

Have you ever taken a hand to your children or belt.??

I’ve never laid a finger on my kids and never would, but got the belt off my old man once and only once and fuck I never did it again.

I do look back and think my old man was right on that occasion and don’t look back on it in a negative way.

Corporal punishment was outlawed in the 80s I believe, and certainly hope it dosent returns.

But our generation late 30s and older, do we think we are now better behaved in general?

And as kids was our generation better behaved in general than kids today in general?

100% I think we are, can’t really see how anyone can disagree with that

What’s the answer? I’ve no idea

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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago

It seems we are going back to the 50s what next beating children with canes in school.

Classy and progressive.

I wonder if behaviour in schools was better as a result, I'd hazard a guess it was

Hitting children teaches them that might makes right.

If you think that’s the best way to get the behaviour you want out of kids I wonder why it’s illegal in most countries..

Have you ever taken a hand to your children or belt.??

I’ve never laid a finger on my kids and never would, but got the belt off my old man once and only once and fuck I never did it again.

I do look back and think my old man was right on that occasion and don’t look back on it in a negative way.

Corporal punishment was outlawed in the 80s I believe, and certainly hope it dosent returns.

But our generation late 30s and older, do we think we are now better behaved in general?

And as kids was our generation better behaved in general than kids today in general?

100% I think we are, can’t really see how anyone can disagree with that

What’s the answer? I’ve no idea"

100% agree thank you for understanding me x

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I remember in primary school very late 70's if some kids we're misbehaving and disrupting class after the teacher had told them off once about it they only had to stand up and whack a long wooden ruler on the desk as a warning to the kids and they instantly fell into line.

On very very rare occasions one kid might push it again and they'd be sent to the head mistress and they'd get a ruler on the back of their legs or something similar but they'd not misbehave again.

Bad behaviour wasn't an issue at all in my schooling until the mid to late 80's when teachers were basically banned from touching you.

Now all I hear from my kids is how difficult it is to learn in classes at school because there's a hardcore eliment of about 20 to 30% of kids that constantly take the piss and disrupt class because there is no sanctions at school that bother them.

They don't turn up to detentions and possibly the parents don't give a toss either and when put in isolation they just play on their phones.

So yes, I think banning the cane etc has done wonders for class behaviour

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households.

"They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”

- Socrates (470-399 BC)

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral

They would be under the same discipline as the army but would not fight for the country or carry arms.

Some may like this and would get easy entry into the forces already qualified in some areas.

As for the cost the jobs they do would save local councils and free up the army for more important work.

Oh, you mean create public-sector jobs in the community?

That's a great idea.

I'm all for that.

I'm all for paying them a wage, too.

"
Nice to agree for a change

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I remember in primary school very late 70's if some kids we're misbehaving and disrupting class after the teacher had told them off once about it they only had to stand up and whack a long wooden ruler on the desk as a warning to the kids and they instantly fell into line.

On very very rare occasions one kid might push it again and they'd be sent to the head mistress and they'd get a ruler on the back of their legs or something similar but they'd not misbehave again.

Bad behaviour wasn't an issue at all in my schooling until the mid to late 80's when teachers were basically banned from touching you.

They don't turn up to detentions and possibly the parents don't give a toss either and when put in isolation they just play on their phones.

So yes, I think banning the cane etc has done wonders for class behaviour

So you would hit your kids then to modify their behaviour if necessary??

I have a feeling you find other methods.

Or us it just other parents kids you feel need hitting with a ruler or cane..?

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By *oan of DArcCouple
over a year ago

Glasgow

It's not only a government responsibility, parents must share the blame too for today's youngsters. . Everything starts at home. "

The youngsters of today that I encounter are far better than the youngsters of yesterday, more socially, culturally and politically aware.

The haranguing of youth has been a hobby horse amongst the older generation for centuries-yes there are delinquents now but that's always been the case.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

On very very rare occasions one kid might push it again and they'd be sent to the head mistress and they'd get a ruler on the back of their legs or something similar but they'd not misbehave again.

Bad behaviour wasn't an issue at all in my schooling until the mid to late 80's when teachers were basically banned from touching you.

They don't turn up to detentions and possibly the parents don't give a toss either and when put in isolation they just play on their phones.

So yes, I think banning the cane etc has done wonders for class behaviour

So you would hit your kids then to modify their behaviour if necessary??

I have a feeling you find other methods.

Or us it just other parents kids you feel need hitting with a ruler or cane..?"

Do you disagree that behaviour in schools has deteriorated over the last 40 years?

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

Do you disagree that behaviour in schools has deteriorated over the last 40 years? "

That's a really nebulous question. A general feeling that kids are less well behaved these days is so common across generations it's almost a cliche.

What you should do is pop 'evidence on corporal punishment' or similar and see how the research is conclusive that hitting kids is, shockingly, really really bad for them - it teaches them to be aggressive themselves, to mistrust adults, it can lead to mental health issues, etc.

Even if it works - and that's a big if - it's not worth it for what it does to children.

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By *uck-RogersMan
over a year ago

Oakhill

Do you disagree that behaviour in schools has deteriorated over the last 40 years?

That's a really nebulous question. A general feeling that kids are less well behaved these days is so common across generations it's almost a cliche.

Even if it works - and that's a big if - it's not worth it for what it does to children. "

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

I really thought we had moved on from the idea that adults have a right to assault children.

You have no right to assault another adult, so what makes you think assaulting a child is acceptable?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yes, they could send them to afghanistan to help them there, it would free up many spaces in the prisons.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

There is no better measure of a society than how it treats its children .

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By *ylonSlutTV/TS
over a year ago

Durham

Ironically the last time we had knife crime worse than now was late 50s when we had national service. I think the problem is if a youngster has no education these days they will find it to get a decent reasonably paid job whereas in the past kids could leave school with no qualifications and walk into a reasonably paid job with some prospects.

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By *hetalkingstoveMan
over a year ago

London

Do you disagree that behaviour in schools has deteriorated over the last 40 years?

That's a really nebulous question. A general feeling that kids are less well behaved these days is so common across generations it's almost a cliche.

Even if it works - and that's a big if - it's not worth it for what it does to children.

Ah, the eye roll emoji, what a greater counter argument.

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By *uck-RogersMan
over a year ago

Oakhill

Assaulting, or physically and mentally hurting a child, should be reported to the relevant authority or police straight away.

Children need guidance and training about life, from a responsible parent or adult.

Unfortunately, not all children have a parent or guardian. Who is willing to take the time to educate them, about right or wrong, respect and manners as I was.

I take it that brought up your children to respect their elders, and others in society. To say please and thank you. As I did with my 3 children.

I took the time to communicate, and listen to my children. Even when I came home from a hard day at work. as you must have taken the time.

But unfortunately. There are those people in society, that can't be bothered to take the time, to educate a young impressionable mind.

And these same people can't even train a dog that they may have.

So it is a case of !!! Open the door, and let them out, to piss and shit everywhere in the community.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 13/08/19 11:19:31]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Be wary of people who have a strong desire to punish others.

It says much about them.

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By *omaMan
over a year ago

Glasgow

It's not only a government responsibility, parents must share the blame too for today's youngsters. . Everything starts at home.

It becomes a Government responsibility when people are talking about more prisons, national service etc.

The reality is a lot of children are born into dysfunctional homes.

Now, the state can wash its hands when that child is a nipper, go tut tut at the parent and then spend a fortune dealing with the consequences when they become an adult.

Or it can step into the vacuum when they are little and try to steer them onto a more responsible pattern of behaviour.

All the evidence shows it is more cost-effective nurturing them as a child than it is punishing them as an adult.

I wonder how the human race in Britain has survived this long before the nanny, let's wrap them in cotton wool, brigade came into being.

Dysfunctional? No let's call a spade a spade for a change, they ain't dysfunctional they are a generation who think the state owes them something. Everything is someone else's fault. Victim mentality.

Life is a hard lesson, the world isn't all roses and cup cakes.

And that isn't any government's fault.