Join us FREE, we're FREE to use
Web's largest swingers site since 2006.
Already registered?
Login here
![]() | Back to forum list |
![]() | Back to Politics |
Jump to newest | ![]() |
| |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The only way through the conundrum that I can see is a referendum. On what exactly, I don't know." I think it's clear on what, Parliament has failed abysmally to deal with this for 3 years now. A referendum should ask the public: Do you want to remain or Do you want to leave with no deal Because this lot could continue to fart around until hell freezes over and still find no common ground. | |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The only way through the conundrum that I can see is a referendum. On what exactly, I don't know. I think it's clear on what, Parliament has failed abysmally to deal with this for 3 years now. A referendum should ask the public: Do you want to remain or Do you want to leave with no deal Because this lot could continue to fart around until hell freezes over and still find no common ground." The problem that a second referendum does not address is that of a narrow margin (one way or the other). It really surprises me how politicians - and the media too - have got this spectacularly wrong and all appear to be leading with emotion instead of pragmatic logic. It was a narrow result. Leavers - did not win an overwhelming majority and there is consequently never going to be a mandate for dramatic change. Remainers - need to accept that something about our relationship with Europe has to change. Politicians and the media have to start being more pragmatic and more honest about the result and what it actually means practically. It is stupid and dangerous for hard Brexiters to demand that the country should should embrace their version of Brexit. It is equally stupid and dangerous for extreme Remainers to keep demanding additional referendums when it is obvious that on any given day Leave or Remain could win a narrow majority. The referendum result is simply a mandate for something to change - a bit. The logical course of action would have been to establish a ten year plan that took us out incrementally whilst insulating the country from shock. All that has happened in the last three years has simply demonstrated toys all and to the world at large that our Politicians are just not strong enough, brave enough or pragmatic enough to make appropriate long term decisions. | |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" The referendum result is simply a mandate for something to change - a bit. The logical course of action would have been to establish a ten year plan that took us out incrementally whilst insulating the country from shock. All that has happened in the last three years has simply demonstrated toys all and to the world at large that our Politicians are just not strong enough, brave enough or pragmatic enough to make appropriate long term decisions." ![]() | |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" So the inevitability is that we will be departing without a deal." There is no mandate for that. Parliament will not allow it to happen and the EU does not want it either. | |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Many remainers do agree our relationship needs to change. They just believe this is better done from the inside rather than the extreme of breaking the relationship and trying to start again. Interestingly many European eurosceptic parties are taking this approach rather than a Frexit etc. " MEP's have never really been taken seriously, for a long time now many British voters have elected UKIP MEP's who stood on a ticket of vote for me and I won't do the job you pay me for, I suspect the other EU countries have their equivalents. This has effectively stalled the EU and made it a self fulfilling prophecy of its own failings. E.g. unelected civil servants putting through legislation that sails through unmonitored by the elected representatives as they are collecting a salary to do nothing but disrupt. Triumph motorcycles is a UK manufacturer we should be proud of, risen from nothing in the 80's to a world class brand. BMW would have killed them off at birth if we didn't have active working MEP's scrutinizing and voting on legislation for a European market. I would have liked to stay in, but lost and accept that loss. What I don't accept is the squandering of the 2 year preparation time trying to negotiate a 2 year period after it to do the preparation. If our elected representatives spent their energy on preparing for the long term future of us the represented instead of trying to ensure they get reelected in 5 years, we would all be better off, and maybe we could have some respect for politicians. End rant... | |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" So the inevitability is that we will be departing without a deal. There is no mandate for that. Parliament will not allow it to happen and the EU does not want it either. " I am still unsure on this. It went through parliament, to the lords and passed when back in parliament. Does that mean it is legislated and could be legally upheld in courts? As it is often said the default position still stands as no deal. | |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Parliament has already shown it can seize control of the business agenda. It is quite feasible Parliament could pass an amendment to the Act. The other factor here is that a Brextremist in No. 10 driving for a no-deal exit will rupture the Conservative Party, leading to an exodus of the moderate MPs. " If there is no agreement either in The Commons or between the UK and the EU, then there is no deal by x date. | |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Parliament has already shown it can seize control of the business agenda. It is quite feasible Parliament could pass an amendment to the Act. The other factor here is that a Brextremist in No. 10 driving for a no-deal exit will rupture the Conservative Party, leading to an exodus of the moderate MPs. If there is no agreement either in The Commons or between the UK and the EU, then there is no deal by x date. " Or we revoke. That can be done unilaterally. However the original point is very few people have given affirmation to a person, party, or political movement which have stood on a mandate of no deal. Leave talked about a deal. Tories talked about a deal. Labour talked about a deal. | |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" If there is no agreement either in The Commons or between the UK and the EU, then there is no deal by x date. " In that case, why did we not leave by default on March 29, the date in the Act? | |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Something has to give. But what? " Remainers attitude to remaining, they lost they need to get over it and work to leaving in the most orderly fashion possible. | |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" If there is no agreement either in The Commons or between the UK and the EU, then there is no deal by x date. In that case, why did we not leave by default on March 29, the date in the Act? " . That's currently being challenged in the high court | |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Something has to give. But what? Remainers attitude to remaining, they lost they need to get over it and work to leaving in the most orderly fashion possible." The Remainders voted to leave in an orderly fashion, as you put it. The people who blocked it were the Brexiteers. | |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So the inevitability is that we will be departing without a deal." It would be interesting to find out what percentage of leave voters actually voted to leave without a deal, and how many voted leave wanting their cake and to eat it. I personally believe that the leave vote was split (not sure of the percentage) between leaving with a clean break and damn the consequences, and leave but continue trading with the EU on our own terms (which is never going to happen). | |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Something has to give. But what? Remainers attitude to remaining, they lost they need to get over it and work to leaving in the most orderly fashion possible. The Remainders voted to leave in an orderly fashion, as you put it. The people who blocked it were the Brexiteers. " Yes the uncomfortable truth is brexit was stopped by brexiters. ![]() | |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So the inevitability is that we will be departing without a deal. It would be interesting to find out what percentage of leave voters actually voted to leave without a deal, and how many voted leave wanting their cake and to eat it. I personally believe that the leave vote was split (not sure of the percentage) between leaving with a clean break and damn the consequences, and leave but continue trading with the EU on our own terms (which is never going to happen)." During the referendum, leaving without a deal was dismissed by the Leave campaign as "silly" and "project fear". Both Conservative and Labour stood on manifestos in 2017 promising to exit the EU with a particular type of deal. There is no political mandate for exiting the EU without an agreement in place. | |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It would be interesting to find out what percentage of leave voters actually voted to leave without a deal, " That is an easy one, 100% who voted leave, voted leave without a deal, there was no 'deal option' on the referendum. | |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" So the inevitability is that we will be departing without a deal. There is no mandate for that. Parliament will not allow it to happen and the EU does not want it either. I am still unsure on this. It went through parliament, to the lords and passed when back in parliament. Does that mean it is legislated and could be legally upheld in courts? As it is often said the default position still stands as no deal. " the default position is an illegal position | |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It would be interesting to find out what percentage of leave voters actually voted to leave without a deal, That is an easy one, 100% who voted leave, voted leave without a deal, there was no 'deal option' on the referendum." Repeat a lie often enough and eventually people begin to believe it. You must have lived through a different period of history from me. | |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It would be interesting to find out what percentage of leave voters actually voted to leave without a deal, That is an easy one, 100% who voted leave, voted leave without a deal, there was no 'deal option' on the referendum." Someone should have mentioned this to vote leave. "we will negotiate the terms of a new deal before we start any process to leave" Or arron banks. Or Daniel Hannan. | |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" Something has to give. But what? Remainers attitude to remaining, they lost they need to get over it and work to leaving in the most orderly fashion possible. The Remainders voted to leave in an orderly fashion, as you put it. The people who blocked it were the Brexiteers. " . That's nonsense, how did the libdems vote? Stephen Lloyd was threatened with the whip when declared he wanted to vote for Mays deal. Some brexiteers voted against as they didn't believe it was actually leaving. | |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"So you believe it is the job of opposition politicians to implement government policy? Er, no. The reason a party is in government is because it has a majority to get its manifesto implemented. The manifesto said leaving the EU with an agreement. But so many Tory MPs decided that was not what they stood for and kept blocking the exit. That is a party without discipline. In fact, it is two parties in one - UKIP-lite and Conservatives. The sooner they go their separate ways, the sooner the country will heal. " NO conection to UKIP,both main parties have no discipline Fact | |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It would be interesting to find out what percentage of leave voters actually voted to leave without a deal, That is an easy one, 100% who voted leave, voted leave without a deal, there was no 'deal option' on the referendum. Repeat a lie often enough and eventually people begin to believe it. You must have lived through a different period of history from me. " Just double checked the wording in case I missremembered it. But no there were 2 options simple vote and the winning option simply said Leave the European union No mention of any deal, so all who chose it did not ask for a deal. | |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It would be interesting to find out what percentage of leave voters actually voted to leave without a deal, That is an easy one, 100% who voted leave, voted leave without a deal, there was no 'deal option' on the referendum. Repeat a lie often enough and eventually people begin to believe it. You must have lived through a different period of history from me. Just double checked the wording in case I missremembered it. But no there were 2 options simple vote and the winning option simply said Leave the European union No mention of any deal, so all who chose it did not ask for a deal." But has been told by the leave campaign we'd negotiate a deal. Which was then ratified when 80% of voters voted for parties who promised a deal. | |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Let's look at the reality of the situation. The Withdrawal agreement, which has been voted down by parliament on three occasions, is the only 'deal' that the EU will agree to. Political declarations and speculation of future relationships aside, the problem has been the Irish backstop which is part of that agreement. Under EU law, future arrangements can not be negotiated whilst a country remains a member state - in other words, we can't discuss the future until we've left. So here's the conundrum. The WA is dead. Not going to happen. The PM has tried and tried to get it through but PARLIAMENT has rejected it. This means that we have no deal with the EU on our departure. So, either Parliament honours the referendum and gets us out, or it revokes Article 50 - which would be political suicide for all MP's who vote for it. So the inevitability is that we will be departing without a deal." I would like to disagree. However, I cannot. The only ways that we will not leave on 31st October is either to revoke (most unlikely) or to ask for more time which will only be done if there is something substantially new that the UK can bring forward that the EU can also latch on to (also unlikely). | |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" But has been told by the leave campaign we'd negotiate a deal. Which was then ratified when 80% of voters voted for parties who promised a deal. " We have moved on. The extant mandate is the manifesto upon which MPs were elected in the 2017 General Election. Both Labour and Conservative MPs were elected on leaving the EU with an agreement - the Conservatives promising something vague, and Labour promising a customs union. There is no political mandate for a no-deal exit because the only party advocating it was trounced. | |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" But has been told by the leave campaign we'd negotiate a deal. Which was then ratified when 80% of voters voted for parties who promised a deal. We have moved on. The extant mandate is the manifesto upon which MPs were elected in the 2017 General Election. Both Labour and Conservative MPs were elected on leaving the EU with an agreement - the Conservatives promising something vague, and Labour promising a customs union. There is no political mandate for a no-deal exit because the only party advocating it was trounced. " I think you're agreeing with me. That's the 80% I mentioned. The one which centaur used to use as the overwhelming majority mandate to leave. It's the same logic for a mandatefoe a deal. | |||
Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
Post new Message to Thread |
back to top | ![]() |