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"Just heard him on the radio argueing for no deal brexit and WTO rules, yet this multimillion moved his investment business to Dublin to avoid just this so he's insulated from the consequence. We've spent 40 yrs in the EU to avoid this very scenario. Hate this man with a total passion" He is very annoying isn't he | |||
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"Ace guy, should be PM. Will be one day. " Agree! The guys a comedic genius, and just what we need. | |||
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"Just heard him on the radio argueing for no deal brexit and WTO rules, yet this multimillion moved his investment business to Dublin to avoid just this so he's insulated from the consequence. We've spent 40 yrs in the EU to avoid this very scenario. Hate this man with a total passion" He just wants a hard brexit to make more money for himself and he wants to continue to avoid paying his taxes. He literally does not give a fuck how many ordinary people have to suffer. As long as he has more money. | |||
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"Honestly need to find the person who invented the time machine that brought him here so we can send him back." if they do could we also send someone back to put a condom on corbyns dad. | |||
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"Honestly need to find the person who invented the time machine that brought him here so we can send him back. if they do could we also send someone back to put a condom on corbyns dad. "Ha....if we keep on adding all the twats who we would like to disappear (Farage, Boris, most of the current government and all the brexit/ukip mob) I reckon this thread could run forever....as for JRM, well we all know he’s a posh twat from a dysfunctional family - I wonder what has happened to his loopy fascist sister annunciata as she seems to have dropped off the radar? | |||
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"Honestly need to find the person who invented the time machine that brought him here so we can send him back. if they do could we also send someone back to put a condom on corbyns dad.
Ha....if we keep on adding all the twats who we would like to disappear (Farage, Boris, most of the current government and all the brexit/ukip mob) I reckon this thread could run forever....as for JRM, well we all know he’s a posh twat from a dysfunctional family - I wonder what has happened to his loopy fascist sister annunciata as she seems to have dropped off the radar? "Is she not an MEP for the Brexit party now | |||
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"Honestly need to find the person who invented the time machine that brought him here so we can send him back. if they do could we also send someone back to put a condom on corbyns dad.
Ha....if we keep on adding all the twats who we would like to disappear (Farage, Boris, most of the current government and all the brexit/ukip mob) I reckon this thread could run forever....as for JRM, well we all know he’s a posh twat from a dysfunctional family - I wonder what has happened to his loopy fascist sister annunciata as she seems to have dropped off the radar?
Is she not an MEP for the Brexit party now"Exactly my point - a fucking joke candidate for a bunch of destructive lunatics who just want to obstruct the process of democracy - and his sisters not much better either | |||
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"Ace guy, should be PM. Will be one day. Agree! The guys a comedic genius, and just what we need. " We're seeing tight now what happens when you vote for people because they're "funny characters". The man's an irredeemable arsehole and not nearly as intelligent as he likes to make out. | |||
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"Ace guy, should be PM. Will be one day. Agree! The guys a comedic genius, and just what we need. We're seeing tight now what happens when you vote for people because they're "funny characters". The man's an irredeemable arsehole and not nearly as intelligent as he likes to make out." It's a public school trick. To sound confident even of it's BS. Sales people do it too. I was taught it but was taught not to punch down and to give a crap too. That's not always on the curriculum | |||
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"Jrm is a cunt He needs sacking He is totally out of touch Oh did I mention he is a cunt " He may lose his seat. Fingers crossed... | |||
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"Jrm is a cunt He needs sacking He is totally out of touch Oh did I mention he is a cunt " Yes you did....twice....and I would just like to say you were right the first time....he is definitely a cunt | |||
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"Love Jacob, Jacob for King I say! "I hope you were being sarcastic  | |||
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"Anyone on here got anything to say about the LDs leader Jo Swinsons husband and the millions his company gets from the EU ? I’m sure her Remain stance is pure coincidence though ." This thread is about Mogg not silly school girls | |||
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"Love Jacob, Jacob for King I say!
I hope you were being sarcastic "Not in the slightest, love the guy! | |||
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"Anyone on here got anything to say about the LDs leader Jo Swinsons husband and the millions his company gets from the EU ? I’m sure her Remain stance is pure coincidence though ." I think you need to fact check that. Swinton's husband's company doesn't get millions from the EU mostly because Swinton's husband doesn't have a company to get millions of pounds from the EU. However the NGO he does actually work for got a grant for £20,000 last year from the EU. | |||
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"Love Jacob, Jacob for King I say!
I hope you were being sarcastic
Not in the slightest, love the guy! "This is like the "bareback" threads. Good to highlight which people to avoid like the plague. | |||
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"Love Jacob, Jacob for King I say!
I hope you were being sarcastic
Not in the slightest, love the guy!
This is like the "bareback" threads. Good to highlight which people to avoid like the plague."Exactly, all these bitter, hate-filled marxists being mean to our Jacob just 'cos he's a bit posh!! The politics of envy....ugh! | |||
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"Love Jacob, Jacob for King I say!
I hope you were being sarcastic
Not in the slightest, love the guy!
This is like the "bareback" threads. Good to highlight which people to avoid like the plague.
Exactly, all these bitter, hate-filled marxists being mean to our Jacob just 'cos he's a bit posh!! The politics of envy....ugh!"Lol. I'm more than happy to sacrifice my rights and to be poorer, to make sure Rees Mogg gets even richer and can continue to avoid paying taxes. Hail Mogg! | |||
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"Love Jacob, Jacob for King I say!
I hope you were being sarcastic
Not in the slightest, love the guy!
This is like the "bareback" threads. Good to highlight which people to avoid like the plague.
Exactly, all these bitter, hate-filled marxists being mean to our Jacob just 'cos he's a bit posh!! The politics of envy....ugh!
Lol.
I'm more than happy to sacrifice my rights and to be poorer, to make sure Rees Mogg gets even richer and can continue to avoid paying taxes.
Hail Mogg!"It's OK, you don't have to worry - he doesn't need the money, so he can concentrate on getting the country free from the Leviathon for us all! | |||
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"Love Jacob, Jacob for King I say!
I hope you were being sarcastic
Not in the slightest, love the guy!
This is like the "bareback" threads. Good to highlight which people to avoid like the plague.
Exactly, all these bitter, hate-filled marxists being mean to our Jacob just 'cos he's a bit posh!! The politics of envy....ugh!
Lol.
I'm more than happy to sacrifice my rights and to be poorer, to make sure Rees Mogg gets even richer and can continue to avoid paying taxes.
Hail Mogg!
It's OK, you don't have to worry - he doesn't need the money, so he can concentrate on getting the country free from the Leviathon for us all! "I can't tell if you're joking or not. At least you're posts are in good humour. | |||
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"Love Jacob, Jacob for King I say!
I hope you were being sarcastic
Not in the slightest, love the guy!
This is like the "bareback" threads. Good to highlight which people to avoid like the plague.
Exactly, all these bitter, hate-filled marxists being mean to our Jacob just 'cos he's a bit posh!! The politics of envy....ugh!
Lol.
I'm more than happy to sacrifice my rights and to be poorer, to make sure Rees Mogg gets even richer and can continue to avoid paying taxes.
Hail Mogg!
It's OK, you don't have to worry - he doesn't need the money, so he can concentrate on getting the country free from the Leviathon for us all!
I can't tell if you're joking or not.
At least you're posts are in good humour.
"Thanks. That's one reason I like Boris and Jacob too, such a refreshing change. | |||
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"Love Jacob, Jacob for King I say!
I hope you were being sarcastic
Not in the slightest, love the guy!
This is like the "bareback" threads. Good to highlight which people to avoid like the plague.
Exactly, all these bitter, hate-filled marxists being mean to our Jacob just 'cos he's a bit posh!! The politics of envy....ugh!
Lol.
I'm more than happy to sacrifice my rights and to be poorer, to make sure Rees Mogg gets even richer and can continue to avoid paying taxes.
Hail Mogg!
It's OK, you don't have to worry - he doesn't need the money, so he can concentrate on getting the country free from the Leviathon for us all!
I can't tell if you're joking or not.
At least you're posts are in good humour.
Thanks. That's one reason I like Boris and Jacob too, such a refreshing change. "A change from what, politicians that pretend to care about the country but are really just in it to get rich. These two don't bother pretending to care. | |||
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"Love Jacob, Jacob for King I say!
I hope you were being sarcastic
Not in the slightest, love the guy!
This is like the "bareback" threads. Good to highlight which people to avoid like the plague.
Exactly, all these bitter, hate-filled marxists being mean to our Jacob just 'cos he's a bit posh!! The politics of envy....ugh!
Lol.
I'm more than happy to sacrifice my rights and to be poorer, to make sure Rees Mogg gets even richer and can continue to avoid paying taxes.
Hail Mogg!
It's OK, you don't have to worry - he doesn't need the money, so he can concentrate on getting the country free from the Leviathon for us all!
I can't tell if you're joking or not.
At least you're posts are in good humour.
Thanks. That's one reason I like Boris and Jacob too, such a refreshing change.
A change from what, politicians that pretend to care about the country but are really just in it to get rich.
These two don't bother pretending to care."Well, I disagree - and he clearly doesn't need the money. So why would anyone subject themselves to that kind of abuse unless they actually did care? I am sure they both do - I would be far more suspicious of the motives of some of the loudmouth MP's who just seem to be in it to milk the system for all they can get. | |||
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" Well, I disagree - and he clearly doesn't need the money. So why would anyone subject themselves to that kind of abuse unless they actually did care? I am sure they both do - I would be far more suspicious of the motives of some of the loudmouth MP's who just seem to be in it to milk the system for all they can get." Perhaps they do it because it's like a hobby to them … as has been said - they're not short of a bob or two. If it all goes pear shaped for them then I doubt they'll be out on the streets or visiting food banks. On the plus side perhaps they feel it's a better way of spending their time than hunting foxes, stalking deer or shooting grouse. | |||
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"Love Jacob, Jacob for King I say!
I hope you were being sarcastic
Not in the slightest, love the guy!
This is like the "bareback" threads. Good to highlight which people to avoid like the plague.
Exactly, all these bitter, hate-filled marxists being mean to our Jacob just 'cos he's a bit posh!! The politics of envy....ugh!"Apart from I'm not hate filled or marxist Jrm is a backwards nazi esk ludite and vile human | |||
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"You know if I did another degree, in Politics, or Psychology maybe, I think I would do a thesis on the bitter hatred and envy of the liberal left. I sometimes worked for the aristocracy in my youth, riding their hunters, eventers and polo ponies mostly, and been around them all my life because of the horses. I have rarely found them anything but good-natured and charming to all, and benevolent and caring towards everyone they felt they had responsibility for. I certainly know which I would rather have looking after me, I don't trust anyone who shows hatred." Its an interesting point you raise about the good natured and benevolent attitude of the landed gentry. I used to work in photography and spent a lot of time in very wealthy peoples houses and its true that they are often all very nice but I think thats more because they can afford to be and live in an enclosed and different world to us commoners. There are mapped out paths for most of them, one of which is politics starting in the HoC and being elevated to the HoL once they achieve their peerage (there are of course exceptions to this such as Tony Benn who was a peer but chose to be a MoP) but they see it as a continuum of their way of life. No doubt that many are very well educated and bright but they live in a bubble and although in your past you may have been accepted into their general sphere I hope you recognise that you will never be anything more to them than a fan. If it is enough for you to be graced with their occasional friendship I guess thats all you need out of life but don’t forget that you are clinging to your own bubble of niceness.  | |||
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"You know if I did another degree, in Politics, or Psychology maybe, I think I would do a thesis on the bitter hatred and envy of the liberal left. I sometimes worked for the aristocracy in my youth, riding their hunters, eventers and polo ponies mostly, and been around them all my life because of the horses. I have rarely found them anything but good-natured and charming to all, and benevolent and caring towards everyone they felt they had responsibility for. I certainly know which I would rather have looking after me, I don't trust anyone who shows hatred. Its an interesting point you raise about the good natured and benevolent attitude of the landed gentry. I used to work in photography and spent a lot of time in very wealthy peoples houses and its true that they are often all very nice but I think thats more because they can afford to be and live in an enclosed and different world to us commoners. There are mapped out paths for most of them, one of which is politics starting in the HoC and being elevated to the HoL once they achieve their peerage (there are of course exceptions to this such as Tony Benn who was a peer but chose to be a MoP) but they see it as a continuum of their way of life. No doubt that many are very well educated and bright but they live in a bubble and although in your past you may have been accepted into their general sphere I hope you recognise that you will never be anything more to them than a fan. If it is enough for you to be graced with their occasional friendship I guess thats all you need out of life but don’t forget that you are clinging to your own bubble of niceness. "I'm not clinging to anything, some were employees, some were friends, some were people I employed for my horses or went to for training. I am admired for my horsemanship, and in that they are simply my peers, along with people from all nations and all walks of life. I have no chip on my shoulder, and most of them do not - horses are a great leveller in that regard. I've been playing working at festivals and noticed how some of, lets say, the proletariat, have a real problem with 'posh people'. The were envious, spiteful, and actually bore hatred towards them for no reason other than they were born with some privilege they did not have - whilst all the while claiming a self-righteous moral superiority! It was quite revolting, and the problem was firmly THEIRS. Sure, the 'posh' may not understand them or know much of their life sometimes - but vice versa is true too. Plenty of truly good people are born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and never hated anyone, quite the converse - seek to spend their life serving. That's where I learned the term 'noblesse oblige'. I'll trust honour and duty over spite and envy any day. | |||
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"I'll trust honour and duty over spite and envy any day."  totally agree, through accident of birth, affinity with horses, and work I have mixed with old aristocracy and new money alike. There is a sense of duty in old aristocracy, this will often lead them into public service almost always with good intent. Where new money is often spent attempting to buy other things like title, power, and indeed more money.
I don't really know JRM, but do know the family. Let's just say that their money isn't quite old enough yet!
While I am a socialist at heart, I am not a communist and would never begrudge a family that has established a line with inheritance. I admire people who look for a return over 10's or 100's of years far more than those who need next quarters stock valuation to guarantee their bonus.
I am afraid politicians who should be looking forward, can no longer see beyond the next election. | |||
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"You know if I did another degree, in Politics, or Psychology maybe, I think I would do a thesis on the bitter hatred and envy of the liberal left. I sometimes worked for the aristocracy in my youth, riding their hunters, eventers and polo ponies mostly, and been around them all my life because of the horses. I have rarely found them anything but good-natured and charming to all, and benevolent and caring towards everyone they felt they had responsibility for. I certainly know which I would rather have looking after me, I don't trust anyone who shows hatred. Its an interesting point you raise about the good natured and benevolent attitude of the landed gentry. I used to work in photography and spent a lot of time in very wealthy peoples houses and its true that they are often all very nice but I think thats more because they can afford to be and live in an enclosed and different world to us commoners. There are mapped out paths for most of them, one of which is politics starting in the HoC and being elevated to the HoL once they achieve their peerage (there are of course exceptions to this such as Tony Benn who was a peer but chose to be a MoP) but they see it as a continuum of their way of life. No doubt that many are very well educated and bright but they live in a bubble and although in your past you may have been accepted into their general sphere I hope you recognise that you will never be anything more to them than a fan. If it is enough for you to be graced with their occasional friendship I guess thats all you need out of life but don’t forget that you are clinging to your own bubble of niceness.
I'm not clinging to anything, some were employees, some were friends, some were people I employed for my horses or went to for training. I am admired for my horsemanship, and in that they are simply my peers, along with people from all nations and all walks of life. I have no chip on my shoulder, and most of them do not - horses are a great leveller in that regard.
I've been playing working at festivals and noticed how some of, lets say, the proletariat, have a real problem with 'posh people'. The were envious, spiteful, and actually bore hatred towards them for no reason other than they were born with some privilege they did not have - whilst all the while claiming a self-righteous moral superiority! It was quite revolting, and the problem was firmly THEIRS.
Sure, the 'posh' may not understand them or know much of their life sometimes - but vice versa is true too. Plenty of truly good people are born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and never hated anyone, quite the converse - seek to spend their life serving. That's where I learned the term 'noblesse oblige'.
I'll trust honour and duty over spite and envy any day."I agree with some of what you say here and I personally don't hate JRM, Johnson or even Corbyn, all of whom had privileged upbringings and went to private schools. I just think all three of them are completely wrong on many issues and so I oppose them on those issues. Like, dislike, love, hatred has nothing to do with it. I can't see into the heart of another person nor know their true motivation so I go by what they say and by how much I trust them to do what they say. | |||
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"You know if I did another degree, in Politics, or Psychology maybe, I think I would do a thesis on the bitter hatred and envy of the liberal left. I sometimes worked for the aristocracy in my youth, riding their hunters, eventers and polo ponies mostly, and been around them all my life because of the horses. I have rarely found them anything but good-natured and charming to all, and benevolent and caring towards everyone they felt they had responsibility for. I certainly know which I would rather have looking after me, I don't trust anyone who shows hatred. Its an interesting point you raise about the good natured and benevolent attitude of the landed gentry. I used to work in photography and spent a lot of time in very wealthy peoples houses and its true that they are often all very nice but I think thats more because they can afford to be and live in an enclosed and different world to us commoners. There are mapped out paths for most of them, one of which is politics starting in the HoC and being elevated to the HoL once they achieve their peerage (there are of course exceptions to this such as Tony Benn who was a peer but chose to be a MoP) but they see it as a continuum of their way of life. No doubt that many are very well educated and bright but they live in a bubble and although in your past you may have been accepted into their general sphere I hope you recognise that you will never be anything more to them than a fan. If it is enough for you to be graced with their occasional friendship I guess thats all you need out of life but don’t forget that you are clinging to your own bubble of niceness.
I'm not clinging to anything, some were employees, some were friends, some were people I employed for my horses or went to for training. I am admired for my horsemanship, and in that they are simply my peers, along with people from all nations and all walks of life. I have no chip on my shoulder, and most of them do not - horses are a great leveller in that regard.
I've been playing working at festivals and noticed how some of, lets say, the proletariat, have a real problem with 'posh people'. The were envious, spiteful, and actually bore hatred towards them for no reason other than they were born with some privilege they did not have - whilst all the while claiming a self-righteous moral superiority! It was quite revolting, and the problem was firmly THEIRS.
Sure, the 'posh' may not understand them or know much of their life sometimes - but vice versa is true too. Plenty of truly good people are born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and never hated anyone, quite the converse - seek to spend their life serving. That's where I learned the term 'noblesse oblige'.
I'll trust honour and duty over spite and envy any day.
I agree with some of what you say here and I personally don't hate JRM, Johnson or even Corbyn, all of whom had privileged upbringings and went to private schools. I just think all three of them are completely wrong on many issues and so I oppose them on those issues. Like, dislike, love, hatred has nothing to do with it. I can't see into the heart of another person nor know their true motivation so I go by what they say and by how much I trust them to do what they say.
"No-one can argue if you disagree with someones opinions, actions or stated principles. But I hate it when I see people twisting their words or impugning their character or motivation because of THEIR OWN bigotry and bitterness. That's just plain ugly. | |||
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"I'll trust honour and duty over spite and envy any day. totally agree, through accident of birth, affinity with horses, and work I have mixed with old aristocracy and new money alike. There is a sense of duty in old aristocracy, this will often lead them into public service almost always with good intent. Where new money is often spent attempting to buy other things like title, power, and indeed more money.
I don't really know JRM, but do know the family. Let's just say that their money isn't quite old enough yet!
While I am a socialist at heart, I am not a communist and would never begrudge a family that has established a line with inheritance. I admire people who look for a return over 10's or 100's of years far more than those who need next quarters stock valuation to guarantee their bonus.
I am afraid politicians who should be looking forward, can no longer see beyond the next election. " Yes, I like the kind of people who plant a wood for the next generation! | |||
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"I'll trust honour and duty over spite and envy any day. totally agree, through accident of birth, affinity with horses, and work I have mixed with old aristocracy and new money alike. There is a sense of duty in old aristocracy, this will often lead them into public service almost always with good intent. Where new money is often spent attempting to buy other things like title, power, and indeed more money.
I don't really know JRM, but do know the family. Let's just say that their money isn't quite old enough yet!
While I am a socialist at heart, I am not a communist and would never begrudge a family that has established a line with inheritance. I admire people who look for a return over 10's or 100's of years far more than those who need next quarters stock valuation to guarantee their bonus.
I am afraid politicians who should be looking forward, can no longer see beyond the next election.
Yes, I like the kind of people who plant a wood for the next generation! "What you’re saying appears to be that anyone who resents the power and influence of old money is stupid or evil. Perhaps the comment about JRMs money not being quite old enough by another poster is the most telling here. If what qualifies for success  nowadays is driven by short term thinking and new money, then it is allowing brash chancers like Boris, Farage, etc to have too much influence over the direction of the economy and country? Perhaps the old money need to get their hands dirty and make their influence felt over all these new boys for the sake of us all. Meanwhile all us oiks and hoi-polloi can go back to grubbing a living eh?  | |||
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" What you’re saying appears to be that anyone who resents the power and influence of old money is stupid or evil. " Haha, now there's a perfect example, that's exactly the same as people accusing Jacob of calling the Glenfell occupants stupid.... Well, like Jacob, I said nothing of the kind, and it wasn't even in my mind because the people I had in mind are neither stupid nor evil. Expressing hatred and spite, yes. Envious, yes. Self-righteous, yes. Hypocritical? Absolutely. | |||
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"You know if I did another degree, in Politics, or Psychology maybe, I think I would do a thesis on the bitter hatred and envy of the liberal left. I sometimes worked for the aristocracy in my youth, riding their hunters, eventers and polo ponies mostly, and been around them all my life because of the horses. I have rarely found them anything but good-natured and charming to all, and benevolent and caring towards everyone they felt they had responsibility for. I certainly know which I would rather have looking after me, I don't trust anyone who shows hatred. Its an interesting point you raise about the good natured and benevolent attitude of the landed gentry. I used to work in photography and spent a lot of time in very wealthy peoples houses and its true that they are often all very nice but I think thats more because they can afford to be and live in an enclosed and different world to us commoners. There are mapped out paths for most of them, one of which is politics starting in the HoC and being elevated to the HoL once they achieve their peerage (there are of course exceptions to this such as Tony Benn who was a peer but chose to be a MoP) but they see it as a continuum of their way of life. No doubt that many are very well educated and bright but they live in a bubble and although in your past you may have been accepted into their general sphere I hope you recognise that you will never be anything more to them than a fan. If it is enough for you to be graced with their occasional friendship I guess thats all you need out of life but don’t forget that you are clinging to your own bubble of niceness.
I'm not clinging to anything, some were employees, some were friends, some were people I employed for my horses or went to for training. I am admired for my horsemanship, and in that they are simply my peers, along with people from all nations and all walks of life. I have no chip on my shoulder, and most of them do not - horses are a great leveller in that regard.
I've been playing working at festivals and noticed how some of, lets say, the proletariat, have a real problem with 'posh people'. The were envious, spiteful, and actually bore hatred towards them for no reason other than they were born with some privilege they did not have - whilst all the while claiming a self-righteous moral superiority! It was quite revolting, and the problem was firmly THEIRS.
Sure, the 'posh' may not understand them or know much of their life sometimes - but vice versa is true too. Plenty of truly good people are born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and never hated anyone, quite the converse - seek to spend their life serving. That's where I learned the term 'noblesse oblige'.
I'll trust honour and duty over spite and envy any day.
I agree with some of what you say here and I personally don't hate JRM, Johnson or even Corbyn, all of whom had privileged upbringings and went to private schools. I just think all three of them are completely wrong on many issues and so I oppose them on those issues. Like, dislike, love, hatred has nothing to do with it. I can't see into the heart of another person nor know their true motivation so I go by what they say and by how much I trust them to do what they say.
No-one can argue if you disagree with someones opinions, actions or stated principles.
But I hate it when I see people twisting their words or impugning their character or motivation because of THEIR OWN bigotry and bitterness. That's just plain ugly."The irony | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"You know if I did another degree, in Politics, or Psychology maybe, I think I would do a thesis on the bitter hatred and envy of the liberal left. I sometimes worked for the aristocracy in my youth, riding their hunters, eventers and polo ponies mostly, and been around them all my life because of the horses. I have rarely found them anything but good-natured and charming to all, and benevolent and caring towards everyone they felt they had responsibility for. I certainly know which I would rather have looking after me, I don't trust anyone who shows hatred. Its an interesting point you raise about the good natured and benevolent attitude of the landed gentry. I used to work in photography and spent a lot of time in very wealthy peoples houses and its true that they are often all very nice but I think thats more because they can afford to be and live in an enclosed and different world to us commoners. There are mapped out paths for most of them, one of which is politics starting in the HoC and being elevated to the HoL once they achieve their peerage (there are of course exceptions to this such as Tony Benn who was a peer but chose to be a MoP) but they see it as a continuum of their way of life. No doubt that many are very well educated and bright but they live in a bubble and although in your past you may have been accepted into their general sphere I hope you recognise that you will never be anything more to them than a fan. If it is enough for you to be graced with their occasional friendship I guess thats all you need out of life but don’t forget that you are clinging to your own bubble of niceness.
I'm not clinging to anything, some were employees, some were friends, some were people I employed for my horses or went to for training. I am admired for my horsemanship, and in that they are simply my peers, along with people from all nations and all walks of life. I have no chip on my shoulder, and most of them do not - horses are a great leveller in that regard.
I've been playing working at festivals and noticed how some of, lets say, the proletariat, have a real problem with 'posh people'. The were envious, spiteful, and actually bore hatred towards them for no reason other than they were born with some privilege they did not have - whilst all the while claiming a self-righteous moral superiority! It was quite revolting, and the problem was firmly THEIRS.
Sure, the 'posh' may not understand them or know much of their life sometimes - but vice versa is true too. Plenty of truly good people are born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and never hated anyone, quite the converse - seek to spend their life serving. That's where I learned the term 'noblesse oblige'.
I'll trust honour and duty over spite and envy any day.
I agree with some of what you say here and I personally don't hate JRM, Johnson or even Corbyn, all of whom had privileged upbringings and went to private schools. I just think all three of them are completely wrong on many issues and so I oppose them on those issues. Like, dislike, love, hatred has nothing to do with it. I can't see into the heart of another person nor know their true motivation so I go by what they say and by how much I trust them to do what they say.
No-one can argue if you disagree with someones opinions, actions or stated principles.
But I hate it when I see people twisting their words or impugning their character or motivation because of THEIR OWN bigotry and bitterness. That's just plain ugly.
The irony "Oh quit with the sarcastic emoji all the time, it's purile, and just plain ill-mannered, grow up. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"… you two won't be meeting up anytime soon then?" No, I prefer the real men  | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"You know if I did another degree, in Politics, or Psychology maybe, I think I would do a thesis on the bitter hatred and envy of the liberal left. I sometimes worked for the aristocracy in my youth, riding their hunters, eventers and polo ponies mostly, and been around them all my life because of the horses. I have rarely found them anything but good-natured and charming to all, and benevolent and caring towards everyone they felt they had responsibility for. I certainly know which I would rather have looking after me, I don't trust anyone who shows hatred. Its an interesting point you raise about the good natured and benevolent attitude of the landed gentry. I used to work in photography and spent a lot of time in very wealthy peoples houses and its true that they are often all very nice but I think thats more because they can afford to be and live in an enclosed and different world to us commoners. There are mapped out paths for most of them, one of which is politics starting in the HoC and being elevated to the HoL once they achieve their peerage (there are of course exceptions to this such as Tony Benn who was a peer but chose to be a MoP) but they see it as a continuum of their way of life. No doubt that many are very well educated and bright but they live in a bubble and although in your past you may have been accepted into their general sphere I hope you recognise that you will never be anything more to them than a fan. If it is enough for you to be graced with their occasional friendship I guess thats all you need out of life but don’t forget that you are clinging to your own bubble of niceness.
I'm not clinging to anything, some were employees, some were friends, some were people I employed for my horses or went to for training. I am admired for my horsemanship, and in that they are simply my peers, along with people from all nations and all walks of life. I have no chip on my shoulder, and most of them do not - horses are a great leveller in that regard.
I've been playing working at festivals and noticed how some of, lets say, the proletariat, have a real problem with 'posh people'. The were envious, spiteful, and actually bore hatred towards them for no reason other than they were born with some privilege they did not have - whilst all the while claiming a self-righteous moral superiority! It was quite revolting, and the problem was firmly THEIRS.
Sure, the 'posh' may not understand them or know much of their life sometimes - but vice versa is true too. Plenty of truly good people are born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and never hated anyone, quite the converse - seek to spend their life serving. That's where I learned the term 'noblesse oblige'.
I'll trust honour and duty over spite and envy any day.
I agree with some of what you say here and I personally don't hate JRM, Johnson or even Corbyn, all of whom had privileged upbringings and went to private schools. I just think all three of them are completely wrong on many issues and so I oppose them on those issues. Like, dislike, love, hatred has nothing to do with it. I can't see into the heart of another person nor know their true motivation so I go by what they say and by how much I trust them to do what they say.
No-one can argue if you disagree with someones opinions, actions or stated principles.
But I hate it when I see people twisting their words or impugning their character or motivation because of THEIR OWN bigotry and bitterness. That's just plain ugly.
The irony
Oh quit with the sarcastic emoji all the time, it's purile, and just plain ill-mannered, grow up. "Hey again Isn't Boris Johnson mad for a bit of bigotry and hate speech againsy Muslims specifically! Also you mention that they're already rich, as if this put them beyond any form of criticism. But they're both openly into brexit for personal gain. Currency trading. And they both own, part own, families own, companies who don't pay tax, and are part of tax avoidance schemes, which the EU are about to clamp down on, meanwhile shorting the pound, hoping it will drop as low as possible. None of this seems suspicious to you. Even when combined with the absolute catastrophic impact of a hard brexit to ordinary people in the UK. Not to mention the 600mil were already flushing down the brexit toilet every week. Even then, you still like these two baffoons? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"You know if I did another degree, in Politics, or Psychology maybe, I think I would do a thesis on the bitter hatred and envy of the liberal left. I sometimes worked for the aristocracy in my youth, riding their hunters, eventers and polo ponies mostly, and been around them all my life because of the horses. I have rarely found them anything but good-natured and charming to all, and benevolent and caring towards everyone they felt they had responsibility for. I certainly know which I would rather have looking after me, I don't trust anyone who shows hatred. Its an interesting point you raise about the good natured and benevolent attitude of the landed gentry. I used to work in photography and spent a lot of time in very wealthy peoples houses and its true that they are often all very nice but I think thats more because they can afford to be and live in an enclosed and different world to us commoners. There are mapped out paths for most of them, one of which is politics starting in the HoC and being elevated to the HoL once they achieve their peerage (there are of course exceptions to this such as Tony Benn who was a peer but chose to be a MoP) but they see it as a continuum of their way of life. No doubt that many are very well educated and bright but they live in a bubble and although in your past you may have been accepted into their general sphere I hope you recognise that you will never be anything more to them than a fan. If it is enough for you to be graced with their occasional friendship I guess thats all you need out of life but don’t forget that you are clinging to your own bubble of niceness.
I'm not clinging to anything, some were employees, some were friends, some were people I employed for my horses or went to for training. I am admired for my horsemanship, and in that they are simply my peers, along with people from all nations and all walks of life. I have no chip on my shoulder, and most of them do not - horses are a great leveller in that regard.
I've been playing working at festivals and noticed how some of, lets say, the proletariat, have a real problem with 'posh people'. The were envious, spiteful, and actually bore hatred towards them for no reason other than they were born with some privilege they did not have - whilst all the while claiming a self-righteous moral superiority! It was quite revolting, and the problem was firmly THEIRS.
Sure, the 'posh' may not understand them or know much of their life sometimes - but vice versa is true too. Plenty of truly good people are born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and never hated anyone, quite the converse - seek to spend their life serving. That's where I learned the term 'noblesse oblige'.
I'll trust honour and duty over spite and envy any day.
I agree with some of what you say here and I personally don't hate JRM, Johnson or even Corbyn, all of whom had privileged upbringings and went to private schools. I just think all three of them are completely wrong on many issues and so I oppose them on those issues. Like, dislike, love, hatred has nothing to do with it. I can't see into the heart of another person nor know their true motivation so I go by what they say and by how much I trust them to do what they say.
No-one can argue if you disagree with someones opinions, actions or stated principles.
But I hate it when I see people twisting their words or impugning their character or motivation because of THEIR OWN bigotry and bitterness. That's just plain ugly.
The irony
Oh quit with the sarcastic emoji all the time, it's purile, and just plain ill-mannered, grow up.
Hey again
Isn't Boris Johnson mad for a bit of bigotry and hate speech againsy Muslims specifically!
"Nah, that's just lefty liberal smears - he has actually spoken out against banning the burkha like half of Europe already does - I disagree with him there, I would. Taking the mickey out of a ridiculous garment may not be PC, but PC is wrong, and it has absolutely nothing to do with bigotry or racism. You've been reading way too many leftie conspiracy theories in Momentum Monthly by the sound of things! Anyway, I must away to hang out with some Rock Gods!  | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"You know if I did another degree, in Politics, or Psychology maybe, I think I would do a thesis on the bitter hatred and envy of the liberal left. I sometimes worked for the aristocracy in my youth, riding their hunters, eventers and polo ponies mostly, and been around them all my life because of the horses. I have rarely found them anything but good-natured and charming to all, and benevolent and caring towards everyone they felt they had responsibility for. I certainly know which I would rather have looking after me, I don't trust anyone who shows hatred. Its an interesting point you raise about the good natured and benevolent attitude of the landed gentry. I used to work in photography and spent a lot of time in very wealthy peoples houses and its true that they are often all very nice but I think thats more because they can afford to be and live in an enclosed and different world to us commoners. There are mapped out paths for most of them, one of which is politics starting in the HoC and being elevated to the HoL once they achieve their peerage (there are of course exceptions to this such as Tony Benn who was a peer but chose to be a MoP) but they see it as a continuum of their way of life. No doubt that many are very well educated and bright but they live in a bubble and although in your past you may have been accepted into their general sphere I hope you recognise that you will never be anything more to them than a fan. If it is enough for you to be graced with their occasional friendship I guess thats all you need out of life but don’t forget that you are clinging to your own bubble of niceness.
I'm not clinging to anything, some were employees, some were friends, some were people I employed for my horses or went to for training. I am admired for my horsemanship, and in that they are simply my peers, along with people from all nations and all walks of life. I have no chip on my shoulder, and most of them do not - horses are a great leveller in that regard.
I've been playing working at festivals and noticed how some of, lets say, the proletariat, have a real problem with 'posh people'. The were envious, spiteful, and actually bore hatred towards them for no reason other than they were born with some privilege they did not have - whilst all the while claiming a self-righteous moral superiority! It was quite revolting, and the problem was firmly THEIRS.
Sure, the 'posh' may not understand them or know much of their life sometimes - but vice versa is true too. Plenty of truly good people are born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and never hated anyone, quite the converse - seek to spend their life serving. That's where I learned the term 'noblesse oblige'.
I'll trust honour and duty over spite and envy any day.
I agree with some of what you say here and I personally don't hate JRM, Johnson or even Corbyn, all of whom had privileged upbringings and went to private schools. I just think all three of them are completely wrong on many issues and so I oppose them on those issues. Like, dislike, love, hatred has nothing to do with it. I can't see into the heart of another person nor know their true motivation so I go by what they say and by how much I trust them to do what they say.
No-one can argue if you disagree with someones opinions, actions or stated principles.
But I hate it when I see people twisting their words or impugning their character or motivation because of THEIR OWN bigotry and bitterness. That's just plain ugly.
The irony
Oh quit with the sarcastic emoji all the time, it's purile, and just plain ill-mannered, grow up.
Hey again
Isn't Boris Johnson mad for a bit of bigotry and hate speech againsy Muslims specifically!
Nah, that's just lefty liberal smears - he has actually spoken out against banning the burkha like half of Europe already does - I disagree with him there, I would.
Taking the mickey out of a ridiculous garment may not be PC, but PC is wrong, and it has absolutely nothing to do with bigotry or racism. You've been reading way too many leftie conspiracy theories in Momentum Monthly by the sound of things!
Anyway, I must away to hang out with some Rock Gods! "Ah ha. So him speaking out against banning the burka give him carte blanche to say any other racist bullshit he feels like saying? You like rock music? Usually rock music fans are open minded and accepting of people. Oh and I don't read momentum monthly. Sadly for you I'm not a "leftie" and I don't vote for labour. Although if it fits your narrative to label me as such. That's fine. You should know that not everyone who has empathy for other humans, is intelligent, thoughtful and able to think for themselves is a "leftie". | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"You know if I did another degree, in Politics, or Psychology maybe, I think I would do a thesis on the bitter hatred and envy of the liberal left. I sometimes worked for the aristocracy in my youth, riding their hunters, eventers and polo ponies mostly, and been around them all my life because of the horses. I have rarely found them anything but good-natured and charming to all, and benevolent and caring towards everyone they felt they had responsibility for. I certainly know which I would rather have looking after me, I don't trust anyone who shows hatred. Its an interesting point you raise about the good natured and benevolent attitude of the landed gentry. I used to work in photography and spent a lot of time in very wealthy peoples houses and its true that they are often all very nice but I think thats more because they can afford to be and live in an enclosed and different world to us commoners. There are mapped out paths for most of them, one of which is politics starting in the HoC and being elevated to the HoL once they achieve their peerage (there are of course exceptions to this such as Tony Benn who was a peer but chose to be a MoP) but they see it as a continuum of their way of life. No doubt that many are very well educated and bright but they live in a bubble and although in your past you may have been accepted into their general sphere I hope you recognise that you will never be anything more to them than a fan. If it is enough for you to be graced with their occasional friendship I guess thats all you need out of life but don’t forget that you are clinging to your own bubble of niceness.
I'm not clinging to anything, some were employees, some were friends, some were people I employed for my horses or went to for training. I am admired for my horsemanship, and in that they are simply my peers, along with people from all nations and all walks of life. I have no chip on my shoulder, and most of them do not - horses are a great leveller in that regard.
I've been playing working at festivals and noticed how some of, lets say, the proletariat, have a real problem with 'posh people'. The were envious, spiteful, and actually bore hatred towards them for no reason other than they were born with some privilege they did not have - whilst all the while claiming a self-righteous moral superiority! It was quite revolting, and the problem was firmly THEIRS.
Sure, the 'posh' may not understand them or know much of their life sometimes - but vice versa is true too. Plenty of truly good people are born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and never hated anyone, quite the converse - seek to spend their life serving. That's where I learned the term 'noblesse oblige'.
I'll trust honour and duty over spite and envy any day.
I agree with some of what you say here and I personally don't hate JRM, Johnson or even Corbyn, all of whom had privileged upbringings and went to private schools. I just think all three of them are completely wrong on many issues and so I oppose them on those issues. Like, dislike, love, hatred has nothing to do with it. I can't see into the heart of another person nor know their true motivation so I go by what they say and by how much I trust them to do what they say.
No-one can argue if you disagree with someones opinions, actions or stated principles.
But I hate it when I see people twisting their words or impugning their character or motivation because of THEIR OWN bigotry and bitterness. That's just plain ugly.
The irony
Oh quit with the sarcastic emoji all the time, it's purile, and just plain ill-mannered, grow up.
Hey again
Isn't Boris Johnson mad for a bit of bigotry and hate speech againsy Muslims specifically!
Nah, that's just lefty liberal smears - he has actually spoken out against banning the burkha like half of Europe already does - I disagree with him there, I would.
Taking the mickey out of a ridiculous garment may not be PC, but PC is wrong, and it has absolutely nothing to do with bigotry or racism. You've been reading way too many leftie conspiracy theories in Momentum Monthly by the sound of things!
Anyway, I must away to hang out with some Rock Gods! "So cool.... | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"You know if I did another degree, in Politics, or Psychology maybe, I think I would do a thesis on the bitter hatred and envy of the liberal left. I sometimes worked for the aristocracy in my youth, riding their hunters, eventers and polo ponies mostly, and been around them all my life because of the horses. I have rarely found them anything but good-natured and charming to all, and benevolent and caring towards everyone they felt they had responsibility for. I certainly know which I would rather have looking after me, I don't trust anyone who shows hatred. Its an interesting point you raise about the good natured and benevolent attitude of the landed gentry. I used to work in photography and spent a lot of time in very wealthy peoples houses and its true that they are often all very nice but I think thats more because they can afford to be and live in an enclosed and different world to us commoners. There are mapped out paths for most of them, one of which is politics starting in the HoC and being elevated to the HoL once they achieve their peerage (there are of course exceptions to this such as Tony Benn who was a peer but chose to be a MoP) but they see it as a continuum of their way of life. No doubt that many are very well educated and bright but they live in a bubble and although in your past you may have been accepted into their general sphere I hope you recognise that you will never be anything more to them than a fan. If it is enough for you to be graced with their occasional friendship I guess thats all you need out of life but don’t forget that you are clinging to your own bubble of niceness.
I'm not clinging to anything, some were employees, some were friends, some were people I employed for my horses or went to for training. I am admired for my horsemanship, and in that they are simply my peers, along with people from all nations and all walks of life. I have no chip on my shoulder, and most of them do not - horses are a great leveller in that regard.
I've been playing working at festivals and noticed how some of, lets say, the proletariat, have a real problem with 'posh people'. The were envious, spiteful, and actually bore hatred towards them for no reason other than they were born with some privilege they did not have - whilst all the while claiming a self-righteous moral superiority! It was quite revolting, and the problem was firmly THEIRS.
Sure, the 'posh' may not understand them or know much of their life sometimes - but vice versa is true too. Plenty of truly good people are born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and never hated anyone, quite the converse - seek to spend their life serving. That's where I learned the term 'noblesse oblige'.
I'll trust honour and duty over spite and envy any day.
I agree with some of what you say here and I personally don't hate JRM, Johnson or even Corbyn, all of whom had privileged upbringings and went to private schools. I just think all three of them are completely wrong on many issues and so I oppose them on those issues. Like, dislike, love, hatred has nothing to do with it. I can't see into the heart of another person nor know their true motivation so I go by what they say and by how much I trust them to do what they say.
No-one can argue if you disagree with someones opinions, actions or stated principles.
But I hate it when I see people twisting their words or impugning their character or motivation because of THEIR OWN bigotry and bitterness. That's just plain ugly.
The irony
Oh quit with the sarcastic emoji all the time, it's purile, and just plain ill-mannered, grow up.
Hey again
Isn't Boris Johnson mad for a bit of bigotry and hate speech againsy Muslims specifically!
Nah, that's just lefty liberal smears - he has actually spoken out against banning the burkha like half of Europe already does - I disagree with him there, I would.
Taking the mickey out of a ridiculous garment may not be PC, but PC is wrong, and it has absolutely nothing to do with bigotry or racism. You've been reading way too many leftie conspiracy theories in Momentum Monthly by the sound of things!
Anyway, I must away to hang out with some Rock Gods!
So cool.... "So stupid | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"You know if I did another degree, in Politics, or Psychology maybe, I think I would do a thesis on the bitter hatred and envy of the liberal left. I sometimes worked for the aristocracy in my youth, riding their hunters, eventers and polo ponies mostly, and been around them all my life because of the horses. I have rarely found them anything but good-natured and charming to all, and benevolent and caring towards everyone they felt they had responsibility for. I certainly know which I would rather have looking after me, I don't trust anyone who shows hatred. Its an interesting point you raise about the good natured and benevolent attitude of the landed gentry. I used to work in photography and spent a lot of time in very wealthy peoples houses and its true that they are often all very nice but I think thats more because they can afford to be and live in an enclosed and different world to us commoners. There are mapped out paths for most of them, one of which is politics starting in the HoC and being elevated to the HoL once they achieve their peerage (there are of course exceptions to this such as Tony Benn who was a peer but chose to be a MoP) but they see it as a continuum of their way of life. No doubt that many are very well educated and bright but they live in a bubble and although in your past you may have been accepted into their general sphere I hope you recognise that you will never be anything more to them than a fan. If it is enough for you to be graced with their occasional friendship I guess thats all you need out of life but don’t forget that you are clinging to your own bubble of niceness.
I'm not clinging to anything, some were employees, some were friends, some were people I employed for my horses or went to for training. I am admired for my horsemanship, and in that they are simply my peers, along with people from all nations and all walks of life. I have no chip on my shoulder, and most of them do not - horses are a great leveller in that regard.
I've been playing working at festivals and noticed how some of, lets say, the proletariat, have a real problem with 'posh people'. The were envious, spiteful, and actually bore hatred towards them for no reason other than they were born with some privilege they did not have - whilst all the while claiming a self-righteous moral superiority! It was quite revolting, and the problem was firmly THEIRS.
Sure, the 'posh' may not understand them or know much of their life sometimes - but vice versa is true too. Plenty of truly good people are born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and never hated anyone, quite the converse - seek to spend their life serving. That's where I learned the term 'noblesse oblige'.
I'll trust honour and duty over spite and envy any day.
I agree with some of what you say here and I personally don't hate JRM, Johnson or even Corbyn, all of whom had privileged upbringings and went to private schools. I just think all three of them are completely wrong on many issues and so I oppose them on those issues. Like, dislike, love, hatred has nothing to do with it. I can't see into the heart of another person nor know their true motivation so I go by what they say and by how much I trust them to do what they say.
No-one can argue if you disagree with someones opinions, actions or stated principles.
But I hate it when I see people twisting their words or impugning their character or motivation because of THEIR OWN bigotry and bitterness. That's just plain ugly.
The irony
Oh quit with the sarcastic emoji all the time, it's purile, and just plain ill-mannered, grow up.
Hey again
Isn't Boris Johnson mad for a bit of bigotry and hate speech againsy Muslims specifically!
Nah, that's just lefty liberal smears - he has actually spoken out against banning the burkha like half of Europe already does - I disagree with him there, I would.
Taking the mickey out of a ridiculous garment may not be PC, but PC is wrong, and it has absolutely nothing to do with bigotry or racism. You've been reading way too many leftie conspiracy theories in Momentum Monthly by the sound of things!
Anyway, I must away to hang out with some Rock Gods!
So cool.... So stupid "Always glad to see you _ammski....endlessly entertaining | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Ace guy, should be PM. Will be one day. Agree! The guys a comedic genius, and just what we need. We're seeing tight now what happens when you vote for people because they're "funny characters". The man's an irredeemable arsehole and not nearly as intelligent as he likes to make out." JRM educate beyond his intelligence. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"You know if I did another degree, in Politics, or Psychology maybe, I think I would do a thesis on the bitter hatred and envy of the liberal left. I sometimes worked for the aristocracy in my youth, riding their hunters, eventers and polo ponies mostly, and been around them all my life because of the horses. I have rarely found them anything but good-natured and charming to all, and benevolent and caring towards everyone they felt they had responsibility for. I certainly know which I would rather have looking after me, I don't trust anyone who shows hatred. Its an interesting point you raise about the good natured and benevolent attitude of the landed gentry. I used to work in photography and spent a lot of time in very wealthy peoples houses and its true that they are often all very nice but I think thats more because they can afford to be and live in an enclosed and different world to us commoners. There are mapped out paths for most of them, one of which is politics starting in the HoC and being elevated to the HoL once they achieve their peerage (there are of course exceptions to this such as Tony Benn who was a peer but chose to be a MoP) but they see it as a continuum of their way of life. No doubt that many are very well educated and bright but they live in a bubble and although in your past you may have been accepted into their general sphere I hope you recognise that you will never be anything more to them than a fan. If it is enough for you to be graced with their occasional friendship I guess thats all you need out of life but don’t forget that you are clinging to your own bubble of niceness.
I'm not clinging to anything, some were employees, some were friends, some were people I employed for my horses or went to for training. I am admired for my horsemanship, and in that they are simply my peers, along with people from all nations and all walks of life. I have no chip on my shoulder, and most of them do not - horses are a great leveller in that regard.
I've been playing working at festivals and noticed how some of, lets say, the proletariat, have a real problem with 'posh people'. The were envious, spiteful, and actually bore hatred towards them for no reason other than they were born with some privilege they did not have - whilst all the while claiming a self-righteous moral superiority! It was quite revolting, and the problem was firmly THEIRS.
Sure, the 'posh' may not understand them or know much of their life sometimes - but vice versa is true too. Plenty of truly good people are born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and never hated anyone, quite the converse - seek to spend their life serving. That's where I learned the term 'noblesse oblige'.
I'll trust honour and duty over spite and envy any day.
I agree with some of what you say here and I personally don't hate JRM, Johnson or even Corbyn, all of whom had privileged upbringings and went to private schools. I just think all three of them are completely wrong on many issues and so I oppose them on those issues. Like, dislike, love, hatred has nothing to do with it. I can't see into the heart of another person nor know their true motivation so I go by what they say and by how much I trust them to do what they say.
No-one can argue if you disagree with someones opinions, actions or stated principles.
But I hate it when I see people twisting their words or impugning their character or motivation because of THEIR OWN bigotry and bitterness. That's just plain ugly.
The irony
Oh quit with the sarcastic emoji all the time, it's purile, and just plain ill-mannered, grow up.
Hey again
Isn't Boris Johnson mad for a bit of bigotry and hate speech againsy Muslims specifically!
Nah, that's just lefty liberal smears - he has actually spoken out against banning the burkha like half of Europe already does - I disagree with him there, I would.
Taking the mickey out of a ridiculous garment may not be PC, but PC is wrong, and it has absolutely nothing to do with bigotry or racism. You've been reading way too many leftie conspiracy theories in Momentum Monthly by the sound of things!
Anyway, I must away to hang out with some Rock Gods!
Ah ha. So him speaking out against banning the burka give him carte blanche to say any other racist bullshit he feels like saying?
You like rock music? Usually rock music fans are open minded and accepting of people.
Oh and I don't read momentum monthly. Sadly for you I'm not a "leftie" and I don't vote for labour. Although if it fits your narrative to label me as such. That's fine. You should know that not everyone who has empathy for other humans, is intelligent, thoughtful and able to think for themselves is a "leftie"."I don't find they are at all anyway. But two and two makes four anyway you know, not five. | |||
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"Reading all the post, "I knew some nice rich people therefore all rich people are nice, I knew some envious poor people therefore all poor people are envious". Post hoc ergo propter hoc" This is the story that forms a lot of people's opinions. When they use the word "most" they mean of the experience that they have. Relative to a national scale is necessarily really rather limited | |||
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"Reading all the post, "I knew some nice rich people therefore all rich people are nice, I knew some envious poor people therefore all poor people are envious". " Around here its more like 'I don't know those posh people but I know they're all utter bastards and us 'normal' people are the guardians of righteousness'. Just offering a different perspective mate, it's a bit like an echo chamber around here otherwise. | |||
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"Reading all the post, "I knew some nice rich people therefore all rich people are nice, I knew some envious poor people therefore all poor people are envious". Around here its more like 'I don't know those posh people but I know they're all utter bastards and us 'normal' people are the guardians of righteousness'. Just offering a different perspective mate, it's a bit like an echo chamber around here otherwise. "Ahh you should have been on here a couple of years ago - the echo chamber would definitely have been more to your taste back then | |||
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"You know if I did another degree, in Politics, or Psychology maybe, I think I would do a thesis on the bitter hatred and envy of the liberal left. I sometimes worked for the aristocracy in my youth, riding their hunters, eventers and polo ponies mostly, and been around them all my life because of the horses. I have rarely found them anything but good-natured and charming to all, and benevolent and caring towards everyone they felt they had responsibility for. I certainly know which I would rather have looking after me, I don't trust anyone who shows hatred. Its an interesting point you raise about the good natured and benevolent attitude of the landed gentry. I used to work in photography and spent a lot of time in very wealthy peoples houses and its true that they are often all very nice but I think thats more because they can afford to be and live in an enclosed and different world to us commoners. There are mapped out paths for most of them, one of which is politics starting in the HoC and being elevated to the HoL once they achieve their peerage (there are of course exceptions to this such as Tony Benn who was a peer but chose to be a MoP) but they see it as a continuum of their way of life. No doubt that many are very well educated and bright but they live in a bubble and although in your past you may have been accepted into their general sphere I hope you recognise that you will never be anything more to them than a fan. If it is enough for you to be graced with their occasional friendship I guess thats all you need out of life but don’t forget that you are clinging to your own bubble of niceness.
I'm not clinging to anything, some were employees, some were friends, some were people I employed for my horses or went to for training. I am admired for my horsemanship, and in that they are simply my peers, along with people from all nations and all walks of life. I have no chip on my shoulder, and most of them do not - horses are a great leveller in that regard.
I've been playing working at festivals and noticed how some of, lets say, the proletariat, have a real problem with 'posh people'. The were envious, spiteful, and actually bore hatred towards them for no reason other than they were born with some privilege they did not have - whilst all the while claiming a self-righteous moral superiority! It was quite revolting, and the problem was firmly THEIRS.
Sure, the 'posh' may not understand them or know much of their life sometimes - but vice versa is true too. Plenty of truly good people are born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and never hated anyone, quite the converse - seek to spend their life serving. That's where I learned the term 'noblesse oblige'.
I'll trust honour and duty over spite and envy any day.
I agree with some of what you say here and I personally don't hate JRM, Johnson or even Corbyn, all of whom had privileged upbringings and went to private schools. I just think all three of them are completely wrong on many issues and so I oppose them on those issues. Like, dislike, love, hatred has nothing to do with it. I can't see into the heart of another person nor know their true motivation so I go by what they say and by how much I trust them to do what they say.
No-one can argue if you disagree with someones opinions, actions or stated principles.
But I hate it when I see people twisting their words or impugning their character or motivation because of THEIR OWN bigotry and bitterness. That's just plain ugly.
The irony
Oh quit with the sarcastic emoji all the time, it's purile, and just plain ill-mannered, grow up.
Hey again
Isn't Boris Johnson mad for a bit of bigotry and hate speech againsy Muslims specifically!
Nah, that's just lefty liberal smears - he has actually spoken out against banning the burkha like half of Europe already does - I disagree with him there, I would.
Taking the mickey out of a ridiculous garment may not be PC, but PC is wrong, and it has absolutely nothing to do with bigotry or racism. You've been reading way too many leftie conspiracy theories in Momentum Monthly by the sound of things!
Anyway, I must away to hang out with some Rock Gods!
Ah ha. So him speaking out against banning the burka give him carte blanche to say any other racist bullshit he feels like saying?
You like rock music? Usually rock music fans are open minded and accepting of people.
Oh and I don't read momentum monthly. Sadly for you I'm not a "leftie" and I don't vote for labour. Although if it fits your narrative to label me as such. That's fine. You should know that not everyone who has empathy for other humans, is intelligent, thoughtful and able to think for themselves is a "leftie"."This
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"Reading all the post, "I knew some nice rich people therefore all rich people are nice, I knew some envious poor people therefore all poor people are envious". Around here its more like 'I don't know those posh people but I know they're all utter bastards and us 'normal' people are the guardians of righteousness'. Just offering a different perspective mate, it's a bit like an echo chamber around here otherwise.
Ahh you should have been on here a couple of years ago - the echo chamber would definitely have been more to your taste back then "I was....  Mind you, I wasn't interested in politics then, something sharpened my mind..... 
Kenny Wayne Shepherd was an utter rock God anyway....  | |||
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"You know if I did another degree, in Politics, or Psychology maybe, I think I would do a thesis on the bitter hatred and envy of the liberal left. I sometimes worked for the aristocracy in my youth, riding their hunters, eventers and polo ponies mostly, and been around them all my life because of the horses. I have rarely found them anything but good-natured and charming to all, and benevolent and caring towards everyone they felt they had responsibility for. I certainly know which I would rather have looking after me, I don't trust anyone who shows hatred. Its an interesting point you raise about the good natured and benevolent attitude of the landed gentry. I used to work in photography and spent a lot of time in very wealthy peoples houses and its true that they are often all very nice but I think thats more because they can afford to be and live in an enclosed and different world to us commoners. There are mapped out paths for most of them, one of which is politics starting in the HoC and being elevated to the HoL once they achieve their peerage (there are of course exceptions to this such as Tony Benn who was a peer but chose to be a MoP) but they see it as a continuum of their way of life. No doubt that many are very well educated and bright but they live in a bubble and although in your past you may have been accepted into their general sphere I hope you recognise that you will never be anything more to them than a fan. If it is enough for you to be graced with their occasional friendship I guess thats all you need out of life but don’t forget that you are clinging to your own bubble of niceness.
I'm not clinging to anything, some were employees, some were friends, some were people I employed for my horses or went to for training. I am admired for my horsemanship, and in that they are simply my peers, along with people from all nations and all walks of life. I have no chip on my shoulder, and most of them do not - horses are a great leveller in that regard.
I've been playing working at festivals and noticed how some of, lets say, the proletariat, have a real problem with 'posh people'. The were envious, spiteful, and actually bore hatred towards them for no reason other than they were born with some privilege they did not have - whilst all the while claiming a self-righteous moral superiority! It was quite revolting, and the problem was firmly THEIRS.
Sure, the 'posh' may not understand them or know much of their life sometimes - but vice versa is true too. Plenty of truly good people are born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and never hated anyone, quite the converse - seek to spend their life serving. That's where I learned the term 'noblesse oblige'.
I'll trust honour and duty over spite and envy any day.
I agree with some of what you say here and I personally don't hate JRM, Johnson or even Corbyn, all of whom had privileged upbringings and went to private schools. I just think all three of them are completely wrong on many issues and so I oppose them on those issues. Like, dislike, love, hatred has nothing to do with it. I can't see into the heart of another person nor know their true motivation so I go by what they say and by how much I trust them to do what they say.
No-one can argue if you disagree with someones opinions, actions or stated principles.
But I hate it when I see people twisting their words or impugning their character or motivation because of THEIR OWN bigotry and bitterness. That's just plain ugly.
The irony
Oh quit with the sarcastic emoji all the time, it's purile, and just plain ill-mannered, grow up.
Hey again
Isn't Boris Johnson mad for a bit of bigotry and hate speech againsy Muslims specifically!
Also you mention that they're already rich, as if this put them beyond any form of criticism. But they're both openly into brexit for personal gain. Currency trading. And they both own, part own, families own, companies who don't pay tax, and are part of tax avoidance schemes, which the EU are about to clamp down on, meanwhile shorting the pound, hoping it will drop as low as possible.
None of this seems suspicious to you. Even when combined with the absolute catastrophic impact of a hard brexit to ordinary people in the UK. Not to mention the 600mil were already flushing down the brexit toilet every week.
Even then, you still like these two baffoons?
"You need to fact check the whole EU tax avoidance thing. As set out it's not really a good enough motivator in my opinion. TBH I think one of the reasons why the Remain argument has not got as much traction with voters as it could is because we're spending too much time questioning the motivation of Leavers to which most simply say to themselves "Well that's not my reason for voting Leave and, if they're wrong about that, why should I listen to anything else they say". Maybe we'd do better if we simply argued that BREXIT is bad for Britain regardless what the motivation those supporting it have. I mean it's not like if Johnson was backing BREXIT for all the right reasons (what ever they may be) it would suddenly make BREXIT a good thing, is it? | |||
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"Reading all the post, "I knew some nice rich people therefore all rich people are nice, I knew some envious poor people therefore all poor people are envious". Around here its more like 'I don't know those posh people but I know they're all utter bastards and us 'normal' people are the guardians of righteousness'. Just offering a different perspective mate, it's a bit like an echo chamber around here otherwise.
Ahh you should have been on here a couple of years ago - the echo chamber would definitely have been more to your taste back then "I think she's been on the site longer than you think. | |||
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(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Reading all the post, "I knew some nice rich people therefore all rich people are nice, I knew some envious poor people therefore all poor people are envious". Around here its more like 'I don't know those posh people but I know they're all utter bastards and us 'normal' people are the guardians of righteousness'. Just offering a different perspective mate, it's a bit like an echo chamber around here otherwise.
Ahh you should have been on here a couple of years ago - the echo chamber would definitely have been more to your taste back then
I think she's been on the site longer than you think.
"So age hasn’t mellowed her? | |||
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| Reply privately |
"You know if I did another degree, in Politics, or Psychology maybe, I think I would do a thesis on the bitter hatred and envy of the liberal left. I sometimes worked for the aristocracy in my youth, riding their hunters, eventers and polo ponies mostly, and been around them all my life because of the horses. I have rarely found them anything but good-natured and charming to all, and benevolent and caring towards everyone they felt they had responsibility for. I certainly know which I would rather have looking after me, I don't trust anyone who shows hatred. Its an interesting point you raise about the good natured and benevolent attitude of the landed gentry. I used to work in photography and spent a lot of time in very wealthy peoples houses and its true that they are often all very nice but I think thats more because they can afford to be and live in an enclosed and different world to us commoners. There are mapped out paths for most of them, one of which is politics starting in the HoC and being elevated to the HoL once they achieve their peerage (there are of course exceptions to this such as Tony Benn who was a peer but chose to be a MoP) but they see it as a continuum of their way of life. No doubt that many are very well educated and bright but they live in a bubble and although in your past you may have been accepted into their general sphere I hope you recognise that you will never be anything more to them than a fan. If it is enough for you to be graced with their occasional friendship I guess thats all you need out of life but don’t forget that you are clinging to your own bubble of niceness.
I'm not clinging to anything, some were employees, some were friends, some were people I employed for my horses or went to for training. I am admired for my horsemanship, and in that they are simply my peers, along with people from all nations and all walks of life. I have no chip on my shoulder, and most of them do not - horses are a great leveller in that regard.
I've been playing working at festivals and noticed how some of, lets say, the proletariat, have a real problem with 'posh people'. The were envious, spiteful, and actually bore hatred towards them for no reason other than they were born with some privilege they did not have - whilst all the while claiming a self-righteous moral superiority! It was quite revolting, and the problem was firmly THEIRS.
Sure, the 'posh' may not understand them or know much of their life sometimes - but vice versa is true too. Plenty of truly good people are born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and never hated anyone, quite the converse - seek to spend their life serving. That's where I learned the term 'noblesse oblige'.
I'll trust honour and duty over spite and envy any day.
I agree with some of what you say here and I personally don't hate JRM, Johnson or even Corbyn, all of whom had privileged upbringings and went to private schools. I just think all three of them are completely wrong on many issues and so I oppose them on those issues. Like, dislike, love, hatred has nothing to do with it. I can't see into the heart of another person nor know their true motivation so I go by what they say and by how much I trust them to do what they say.
No-one can argue if you disagree with someones opinions, actions or stated principles.
But I hate it when I see people twisting their words or impugning their character or motivation because of THEIR OWN bigotry and bitterness. That's just plain ugly.
The irony
Oh quit with the sarcastic emoji all the time, it's purile, and just plain ill-mannered, grow up.
Hey again
Isn't Boris Johnson mad for a bit of bigotry and hate speech againsy Muslims specifically!
Also you mention that they're already rich, as if this put them beyond any form of criticism. But they're both openly into brexit for personal gain. Currency trading. And they both own, part own, families own, companies who don't pay tax, and are part of tax avoidance schemes, which the EU are about to clamp down on, meanwhile shorting the pound, hoping it will drop as low as possible.
None of this seems suspicious to you. Even when combined with the absolute catastrophic impact of a hard brexit to ordinary people in the UK. Not to mention the 600mil were already flushing down the brexit toilet every week.
Even then, you still like these two baffoons?
You need to fact check the whole EU tax avoidance thing. As set out it's not really a good enough motivator in my opinion.
TBH I think one of the reasons why the Remain argument has not got as much traction with voters as it could is because we're spending too much time questioning the motivation of Leavers to which most simply say to themselves "Well that's not my reason for voting Leave and, if they're wrong about that, why should I listen to anything else they say".
Maybe we'd do better if we simply argued that BREXIT is bad for Britain regardless what the motivation those supporting it have. I mean it's not like if Johnson was backing BREXIT for all the right reasons (what ever they may be) it would suddenly make BREXIT a good thing, is it?"Fair point. However brexit is bad for UK. There is zero doubt. But that doesn't seem to make a jot of difference to leavers. | |||
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"Reading all the post, "I knew some nice rich people therefore all rich people are nice, I knew some envious poor people therefore all poor people are envious". Around here its more like 'I don't know those posh people but I know they're all utter bastards and us 'normal' people are the guardians of righteousness'. Just offering a different perspective mate, it's a bit like an echo chamber around here otherwise.
Ahh you should have been on here a couple of years ago - the echo chamber would definitely have been more to your taste back then
I think she's been on the site longer than you think.
So age hasn’t mellowed her? "Total pussycat me! | |||
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| Reply privately |
"You know if I did another degree, in Politics, or Psychology maybe, I think I would do a thesis on the bitter hatred and envy of the liberal left. I sometimes worked for the aristocracy in my youth, riding their hunters, eventers and polo ponies mostly, and been around them all my life because of the horses. I have rarely found them anything but good-natured and charming to all, and benevolent and caring towards everyone they felt they had responsibility for. I certainly know which I would rather have looking after me, I don't trust anyone who shows hatred. Its an interesting point you raise about the good natured and benevolent attitude of the landed gentry. I used to work in photography and spent a lot of time in very wealthy peoples houses and its true that they are often all very nice but I think thats more because they can afford to be and live in an enclosed and different world to us commoners. There are mapped out paths for most of them, one of which is politics starting in the HoC and being elevated to the HoL once they achieve their peerage (there are of course exceptions to this such as Tony Benn who was a peer but chose to be a MoP) but they see it as a continuum of their way of life. No doubt that many are very well educated and bright but they live in a bubble and although in your past you may have been accepted into their general sphere I hope you recognise that you will never be anything more to them than a fan. If it is enough for you to be graced with their occasional friendship I guess thats all you need out of life but don’t forget that you are clinging to your own bubble of niceness.
I'm not clinging to anything, some were employees, some were friends, some were people I employed for my horses or went to for training. I am admired for my horsemanship, and in that they are simply my peers, along with people from all nations and all walks of life. I have no chip on my shoulder, and most of them do not - horses are a great leveller in that regard.
I've been playing working at festivals and noticed how some of, lets say, the proletariat, have a real problem with 'posh people'. The were envious, spiteful, and actually bore hatred towards them for no reason other than they were born with some privilege they did not have - whilst all the while claiming a self-righteous moral superiority! It was quite revolting, and the problem was firmly THEIRS.
Sure, the 'posh' may not understand them or know much of their life sometimes - but vice versa is true too. Plenty of truly good people are born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and never hated anyone, quite the converse - seek to spend their life serving. That's where I learned the term 'noblesse oblige'.
I'll trust honour and duty over spite and envy any day.
I agree with some of what you say here and I personally don't hate JRM, Johnson or even Corbyn, all of whom had privileged upbringings and went to private schools. I just think all three of them are completely wrong on many issues and so I oppose them on those issues. Like, dislike, love, hatred has nothing to do with it. I can't see into the heart of another person nor know their true motivation so I go by what they say and by how much I trust them to do what they say.
No-one can argue if you disagree with someones opinions, actions or stated principles.
But I hate it when I see people twisting their words or impugning their character or motivation because of THEIR OWN bigotry and bitterness. That's just plain ugly.
The irony
Oh quit with the sarcastic emoji all the time, it's purile, and just plain ill-mannered, grow up.
Hey again
Isn't Boris Johnson mad for a bit of bigotry and hate speech againsy Muslims specifically!
Also you mention that they're already rich, as if this put them beyond any form of criticism. But they're both openly into brexit for personal gain. Currency trading. And they both own, part own, families own, companies who don't pay tax, and are part of tax avoidance schemes, which the EU are about to clamp down on, meanwhile shorting the pound, hoping it will drop as low as possible.
None of this seems suspicious to you. Even when combined with the absolute catastrophic impact of a hard brexit to ordinary people in the UK. Not to mention the 600mil were already flushing down the brexit toilet every week.
Even then, you still like these two baffoons?
You need to fact check the whole EU tax avoidance thing. As set out it's not really a good enough motivator in my opinion.
TBH I think one of the reasons why the Remain argument has not got as much traction with voters as it could is because we're spending too much time questioning the motivation of Leavers to which most simply say to themselves "Well that's not my reason for voting Leave and, if they're wrong about that, why should I listen to anything else they say".
Maybe we'd do better if we simply argued that BREXIT is bad for Britain regardless what the motivation those supporting it have. I mean it's not like if Johnson was backing BREXIT for all the right reasons (what ever they may be) it would suddenly make BREXIT a good thing, is it?
Fair point. However brexit is bad for UK. There is zero doubt. But that doesn't seem to make a jot of difference to leavers."The majority obviously have a different perspective. Ask a slave if he wants to stay in a comfortable house or take his freedom and strive for better, and which will they choose? It isn't about money. | |||
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(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"You know if I did another degree, in Politics, or Psychology maybe, I think I would do a thesis on the bitter hatred and envy of the liberal left. I sometimes worked for the aristocracy in my youth, riding their hunters, eventers and polo ponies mostly, and been around them all my life because of the horses. I have rarely found them anything but good-natured and charming to all, and benevolent and caring towards everyone they felt they had responsibility for. I certainly know which I would rather have looking after me, I don't trust anyone who shows hatred. Its an interesting point you raise about the good natured and benevolent attitude of the landed gentry. I used to work in photography and spent a lot of time in very wealthy peoples houses and its true that they are often all very nice but I think thats more because they can afford to be and live in an enclosed and different world to us commoners. There are mapped out paths for most of them, one of which is politics starting in the HoC and being elevated to the HoL once they achieve their peerage (there are of course exceptions to this such as Tony Benn who was a peer but chose to be a MoP) but they see it as a continuum of their way of life. No doubt that many are very well educated and bright but they live in a bubble and although in your past you may have been accepted into their general sphere I hope you recognise that you will never be anything more to them than a fan. If it is enough for you to be graced with their occasional friendship I guess thats all you need out of life but don’t forget that you are clinging to your own bubble of niceness.
I'm not clinging to anything, some were employees, some were friends, some were people I employed for my horses or went to for training. I am admired for my horsemanship, and in that they are simply my peers, along with people from all nations and all walks of life. I have no chip on my shoulder, and most of them do not - horses are a great leveller in that regard.
I've been playing working at festivals and noticed how some of, lets say, the proletariat, have a real problem with 'posh people'. The were envious, spiteful, and actually bore hatred towards them for no reason other than they were born with some privilege they did not have - whilst all the while claiming a self-righteous moral superiority! It was quite revolting, and the problem was firmly THEIRS.
Sure, the 'posh' may not understand them or know much of their life sometimes - but vice versa is true too. Plenty of truly good people are born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and never hated anyone, quite the converse - seek to spend their life serving. That's where I learned the term 'noblesse oblige'.
I'll trust honour and duty over spite and envy any day.
I agree with some of what you say here and I personally don't hate JRM, Johnson or even Corbyn, all of whom had privileged upbringings and went to private schools. I just think all three of them are completely wrong on many issues and so I oppose them on those issues. Like, dislike, love, hatred has nothing to do with it. I can't see into the heart of another person nor know their true motivation so I go by what they say and by how much I trust them to do what they say.
No-one can argue if you disagree with someones opinions, actions or stated principles.
But I hate it when I see people twisting their words or impugning their character or motivation because of THEIR OWN bigotry and bitterness. That's just plain ugly.
The irony
Oh quit with the sarcastic emoji all the time, it's purile, and just plain ill-mannered, grow up.
Hey again
Isn't Boris Johnson mad for a bit of bigotry and hate speech againsy Muslims specifically!
Also you mention that they're already rich, as if this put them beyond any form of criticism. But they're both openly into brexit for personal gain. Currency trading. And they both own, part own, families own, companies who don't pay tax, and are part of tax avoidance schemes, which the EU are about to clamp down on, meanwhile shorting the pound, hoping it will drop as low as possible.
None of this seems suspicious to you. Even when combined with the absolute catastrophic impact of a hard brexit to ordinary people in the UK. Not to mention the 600mil were already flushing down the brexit toilet every week.
Even then, you still like these two baffoons?
You need to fact check the whole EU tax avoidance thing. As set out it's not really a good enough motivator in my opinion.
TBH I think one of the reasons why the Remain argument has not got as much traction with voters as it could is because we're spending too much time questioning the motivation of Leavers to which most simply say to themselves "Well that's not my reason for voting Leave and, if they're wrong about that, why should I listen to anything else they say".
Maybe we'd do better if we simply argued that BREXIT is bad for Britain regardless what the motivation those supporting it have. I mean it's not like if Johnson was backing BREXIT for all the right reasons (what ever they may be) it would suddenly make BREXIT a good thing, is it?
Fair point. However brexit is bad for UK. There is zero doubt. But that doesn't seem to make a jot of difference to leavers.
The majority obviously have a different perspective. Ask a slave if he wants to stay in a comfortable house or take his freedom and strive for better, and which will they choose?
It isn't about money. "I would suggest you retract your wildly ignorant reference to "happy" slaves Research the word oxymoron and the true vile nature of slavery | |||
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| Reply privately |
"You know if I did another degree, in Politics, or Psychology maybe, I think I would do a thesis on the bitter hatred and envy of the liberal left. I sometimes worked for the aristocracy in my youth, riding their hunters, eventers and polo ponies mostly, and been around them all my life because of the horses. I have rarely found them anything but good-natured and charming to all, and benevolent and caring towards everyone they felt they had responsibility for. I certainly know which I would rather have looking after me, I don't trust anyone who shows hatred. Its an interesting point you raise about the good natured and benevolent attitude of the landed gentry. I used to work in photography and spent a lot of time in very wealthy peoples houses and its true that they are often all very nice but I think thats more because they can afford to be and live in an enclosed and different world to us commoners. There are mapped out paths for most of them, one of which is politics starting in the HoC and being elevated to the HoL once they achieve their peerage (there are of course exceptions to this such as Tony Benn who was a peer but chose to be a MoP) but they see it as a continuum of their way of life. No doubt that many are very well educated and bright but they live in a bubble and although in your past you may have been accepted into their general sphere I hope you recognise that you will never be anything more to them than a fan. If it is enough for you to be graced with their occasional friendship I guess thats all you need out of life but don’t forget that you are clinging to your own bubble of niceness.
I'm not clinging to anything, some were employees, some were friends, some were people I employed for my horses or went to for training. I am admired for my horsemanship, and in that they are simply my peers, along with people from all nations and all walks of life. I have no chip on my shoulder, and most of them do not - horses are a great leveller in that regard.
I've been playing working at festivals and noticed how some of, lets say, the proletariat, have a real problem with 'posh people'. The were envious, spiteful, and actually bore hatred towards them for no reason other than they were born with some privilege they did not have - whilst all the while claiming a self-righteous moral superiority! It was quite revolting, and the problem was firmly THEIRS.
Sure, the 'posh' may not understand them or know much of their life sometimes - but vice versa is true too. Plenty of truly good people are born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and never hated anyone, quite the converse - seek to spend their life serving. That's where I learned the term 'noblesse oblige'.
I'll trust honour and duty over spite and envy any day.
I agree with some of what you say here and I personally don't hate JRM, Johnson or even Corbyn, all of whom had privileged upbringings and went to private schools. I just think all three of them are completely wrong on many issues and so I oppose them on those issues. Like, dislike, love, hatred has nothing to do with it. I can't see into the heart of another person nor know their true motivation so I go by what they say and by how much I trust them to do what they say.
No-one can argue if you disagree with someones opinions, actions or stated principles.
But I hate it when I see people twisting their words or impugning their character or motivation because of THEIR OWN bigotry and bitterness. That's just plain ugly.
The irony
Oh quit with the sarcastic emoji all the time, it's purile, and just plain ill-mannered, grow up.
Hey again
Isn't Boris Johnson mad for a bit of bigotry and hate speech againsy Muslims specifically!
Also you mention that they're already rich, as if this put them beyond any form of criticism. But they're both openly into brexit for personal gain. Currency trading. And they both own, part own, families own, companies who don't pay tax, and are part of tax avoidance schemes, which the EU are about to clamp down on, meanwhile shorting the pound, hoping it will drop as low as possible.
None of this seems suspicious to you. Even when combined with the absolute catastrophic impact of a hard brexit to ordinary people in the UK. Not to mention the 600mil were already flushing down the brexit toilet every week.
Even then, you still like these two baffoons?
You need to fact check the whole EU tax avoidance thing. As set out it's not really a good enough motivator in my opinion.
TBH I think one of the reasons why the Remain argument has not got as much traction with voters as it could is because we're spending too much time questioning the motivation of Leavers to which most simply say to themselves "Well that's not my reason for voting Leave and, if they're wrong about that, why should I listen to anything else they say".
Maybe we'd do better if we simply argued that BREXIT is bad for Britain regardless what the motivation those supporting it have. I mean it's not like if Johnson was backing BREXIT for all the right reasons (what ever they may be) it would suddenly make BREXIT a good thing, is it?
Fair point. However brexit is bad for UK. There is zero doubt. But that doesn't seem to make a jot of difference to leavers.
The majority obviously have a different perspective. Ask a slave if he wants to stay in a comfortable house or take his freedom and strive for better, and which will they choose?
It isn't about money. "It isnt about slavery either I am afraid. We are not now and never have been slaves to the EU....we actually are very well placed with our various opt outs compared to some of the newer members....its one of the reasons we dont have the Euro. I guess this is the nub of the matter....the EU although at times unwieldy is in general a positive place to be where things get done in much the same manner as the USA in that there are state and federal rules which differ slightly but allow for ease of traffic and business. I still cannot see what is wrong with that? Its democratic and has no relationship to enslavement. Your mantra mystifies me  | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"You know if I did another degree, in Politics, or Psychology maybe, I think I would do a thesis on the bitter hatred and envy of the liberal left. I sometimes worked for the aristocracy in my youth, riding their hunters, eventers and polo ponies mostly, and been around them all my life because of the horses. I have rarely found them anything but good-natured and charming to all, and benevolent and caring towards everyone they felt they had responsibility for. I certainly know which I would rather have looking after me, I don't trust anyone who shows hatred. Its an interesting point you raise about the good natured and benevolent attitude of the landed gentry. I used to work in photography and spent a lot of time in very wealthy peoples houses and its true that they are often all very nice but I think thats more because they can afford to be and live in an enclosed and different world to us commoners. There are mapped out paths for most of them, one of which is politics starting in the HoC and being elevated to the HoL once they achieve their peerage (there are of course exceptions to this such as Tony Benn who was a peer but chose to be a MoP) but they see it as a continuum of their way of life. No doubt that many are very well educated and bright but they live in a bubble and although in your past you may have been accepted into their general sphere I hope you recognise that you will never be anything more to them than a fan. If it is enough for you to be graced with their occasional friendship I guess thats all you need out of life but don’t forget that you are clinging to your own bubble of niceness.
I'm not clinging to anything, some were employees, some were friends, some were people I employed for my horses or went to for training. I am admired for my horsemanship, and in that they are simply my peers, along with people from all nations and all walks of life. I have no chip on my shoulder, and most of them do not - horses are a great leveller in that regard.
I've been playing working at festivals and noticed how some of, lets say, the proletariat, have a real problem with 'posh people'. The were envious, spiteful, and actually bore hatred towards them for no reason other than they were born with some privilege they did not have - whilst all the while claiming a self-righteous moral superiority! It was quite revolting, and the problem was firmly THEIRS.
Sure, the 'posh' may not understand them or know much of their life sometimes - but vice versa is true too. Plenty of truly good people are born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and never hated anyone, quite the converse - seek to spend their life serving. That's where I learned the term 'noblesse oblige'.
I'll trust honour and duty over spite and envy any day.
I agree with some of what you say here and I personally don't hate JRM, Johnson or even Corbyn, all of whom had privileged upbringings and went to private schools. I just think all three of them are completely wrong on many issues and so I oppose them on those issues. Like, dislike, love, hatred has nothing to do with it. I can't see into the heart of another person nor know their true motivation so I go by what they say and by how much I trust them to do what they say.
No-one can argue if you disagree with someones opinions, actions or stated principles.
But I hate it when I see people twisting their words or impugning their character or motivation because of THEIR OWN bigotry and bitterness. That's just plain ugly.
The irony
Oh quit with the sarcastic emoji all the time, it's purile, and just plain ill-mannered, grow up.
Hey again
Isn't Boris Johnson mad for a bit of bigotry and hate speech againsy Muslims specifically!
Also you mention that they're already rich, as if this put them beyond any form of criticism. But they're both openly into brexit for personal gain. Currency trading. And they both own, part own, families own, companies who don't pay tax, and are part of tax avoidance schemes, which the EU are about to clamp down on, meanwhile shorting the pound, hoping it will drop as low as possible.
None of this seems suspicious to you. Even when combined with the absolute catastrophic impact of a hard brexit to ordinary people in the UK. Not to mention the 600mil were already flushing down the brexit toilet every week.
Even then, you still like these two baffoons?
You need to fact check the whole EU tax avoidance thing. As set out it's not really a good enough motivator in my opinion.
TBH I think one of the reasons why the Remain argument has not got as much traction with voters as it could is because we're spending too much time questioning the motivation of Leavers to which most simply say to themselves "Well that's not my reason for voting Leave and, if they're wrong about that, why should I listen to anything else they say".
Maybe we'd do better if we simply argued that BREXIT is bad for Britain regardless what the motivation those supporting it have. I mean it's not like if Johnson was backing BREXIT for all the right reasons (what ever they may be) it would suddenly make BREXIT a good thing, is it?
Fair point. However brexit is bad for UK. There is zero doubt. But that doesn't seem to make a jot of difference to leavers.
The majority obviously have a different perspective. Ask a slave if he wants to stay in a comfortable house or take his freedom and strive for better, and which will they choose?
It isn't about money.
I would suggest you retract your wildly ignorant reference to "happy" slaves
Research the word oxymoron and the true vile nature of slavery "Or you could research the many definitions of the word slavery. Use prisoner if you prefer. Or captive. The point was about the value of freedom to those who do not have it - it is priceless, when all you can see is the monetary risk. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" It isnt about slavery either I am afraid. We are not now and never have been slaves to the EU....we actually are very well placed with our various opt outs compared to some of the newer members....its one of the reasons we dont have the Euro. I guess this is the nub of the matter....the EU although at times unwieldy is in general a positive place to be where things get done in much the same manner as the USA in that there are state and federal rules which differ slightly but allow for ease of traffic and business. I still cannot see what is wrong with that? Its democratic and has no relationship to enslavement. Your mantra mystifies me "Nonsense, it is not democratic at all, it is a corrupt, unnaccountable, elitest empire hell bent on coercive control. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"You know if I did another degree, in Politics, or Psychology maybe, I think I would do a thesis on the bitter hatred and envy of the liberal left. I sometimes worked for the aristocracy in my youth, riding their hunters, eventers and polo ponies mostly, and been around them all my life because of the horses. I have rarely found them anything but good-natured and charming to all, and benevolent and caring towards everyone they felt they had responsibility for. I certainly know which I would rather have looking after me, I don't trust anyone who shows hatred. Its an interesting point you raise about the good natured and benevolent attitude of the landed gentry. I used to work in photography and spent a lot of time in very wealthy peoples houses and its true that they are often all very nice but I think thats more because they can afford to be and live in an enclosed and different world to us commoners. There are mapped out paths for most of them, one of which is politics starting in the HoC and being elevated to the HoL once they achieve their peerage (there are of course exceptions to this such as Tony Benn who was a peer but chose to be a MoP) but they see it as a continuum of their way of life. No doubt that many are very well educated and bright but they live in a bubble and although in your past you may have been accepted into their general sphere I hope you recognise that you will never be anything more to them than a fan. If it is enough for you to be graced with their occasional friendship I guess thats all you need out of life but don’t forget that you are clinging to your own bubble of niceness.
I'm not clinging to anything, some were employees, some were friends, some were people I employed for my horses or went to for training. I am admired for my horsemanship, and in that they are simply my peers, along with people from all nations and all walks of life. I have no chip on my shoulder, and most of them do not - horses are a great leveller in that regard.
I've been playing working at festivals and noticed how some of, lets say, the proletariat, have a real problem with 'posh people'. The were envious, spiteful, and actually bore hatred towards them for no reason other than they were born with some privilege they did not have - whilst all the while claiming a self-righteous moral superiority! It was quite revolting, and the problem was firmly THEIRS.
Sure, the 'posh' may not understand them or know much of their life sometimes - but vice versa is true too. Plenty of truly good people are born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and never hated anyone, quite the converse - seek to spend their life serving. That's where I learned the term 'noblesse oblige'.
I'll trust honour and duty over spite and envy any day.
I agree with some of what you say here and I personally don't hate JRM, Johnson or even Corbyn, all of whom had privileged upbringings and went to private schools. I just think all three of them are completely wrong on many issues and so I oppose them on those issues. Like, dislike, love, hatred has nothing to do with it. I can't see into the heart of another person nor know their true motivation so I go by what they say and by how much I trust them to do what they say.
No-one can argue if you disagree with someones opinions, actions or stated principles.
But I hate it when I see people twisting their words or impugning their character or motivation because of THEIR OWN bigotry and bitterness. That's just plain ugly.
The irony
Oh quit with the sarcastic emoji all the time, it's purile, and just plain ill-mannered, grow up.
Hey again
Isn't Boris Johnson mad for a bit of bigotry and hate speech againsy Muslims specifically!
Also you mention that they're already rich, as if this put them beyond any form of criticism. But they're both openly into brexit for personal gain. Currency trading. And they both own, part own, families own, companies who don't pay tax, and are part of tax avoidance schemes, which the EU are about to clamp down on, meanwhile shorting the pound, hoping it will drop as low as possible.
None of this seems suspicious to you. Even when combined with the absolute catastrophic impact of a hard brexit to ordinary people in the UK. Not to mention the 600mil were already flushing down the brexit toilet every week.
Even then, you still like these two baffoons?
You need to fact check the whole EU tax avoidance thing. As set out it's not really a good enough motivator in my opinion.
TBH I think one of the reasons why the Remain argument has not got as much traction with voters as it could is because we're spending too much time questioning the motivation of Leavers to which most simply say to themselves "Well that's not my reason for voting Leave and, if they're wrong about that, why should I listen to anything else they say".
Maybe we'd do better if we simply argued that BREXIT is bad for Britain regardless what the motivation those supporting it have. I mean it's not like if Johnson was backing BREXIT for all the right reasons (what ever they may be) it would suddenly make BREXIT a good thing, is it?
Fair point. However brexit is bad for UK. There is zero doubt. But that doesn't seem to make a jot of difference to leavers.
The majority obviously have a different perspective. Ask a slave if he wants to stay in a comfortable house or take his freedom and strive for better, and which will they choose?
It isn't about money.
I would suggest you retract your wildly ignorant reference to "happy" slaves
Research the word oxymoron and the true vile nature of slavery
Or you could research the many definitions of the word slavery. Use prisoner if you prefer. Or captive.
The point was about the value of freedom to those who do not have it - it is priceless, when all you can see is the monetary risk."First world problem. Nothing else to worry about in a nice, safe, free country so invent a problem claiming to be "enslaved". We have a say. More of a say than other countries in the EU. We negotiate our destiny within Europe just as we would if we were on our own, we just have more clout on a global stage as a leading member of a superpower. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" It isnt about slavery either I am afraid. We are not now and never have been slaves to the EU....we actually are very well placed with our various opt outs compared to some of the newer members....its one of the reasons we dont have the Euro. I guess this is the nub of the matter....the EU although at times unwieldy is in general a positive place to be where things get done in much the same manner as the USA in that there are state and federal rules which differ slightly but allow for ease of traffic and business. I still cannot see what is wrong with that? Its democratic and has no relationship to enslavement. Your mantra mystifies me
Nonsense, it is not democratic at all, it is a corrupt, unnaccountable, elitest empire hell bent on coercive control."If you can find some information to back that up other than from the Mail or Express or Telegraph it would be nice. Otherwise just a rant | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" We have a say. More of a say than other countries in the EU. " 'Having a say' is not independence. If you cannot understand the difference you will never understand why anyone voted to leave. Besides, we have no say whatsoever over the rulings of the ECJ who's law has an entirely different basis to our own, and majority voting will increasingly take over the illusion of free choice anyway. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" It isnt about slavery either I am afraid. We are not now and never have been slaves to the EU....we actually are very well placed with our various opt outs compared to some of the newer members....its one of the reasons we dont have the Euro. I guess this is the nub of the matter....the EU although at times unwieldy is in general a positive place to be where things get done in much the same manner as the USA in that there are state and federal rules which differ slightly but allow for ease of traffic and business. I still cannot see what is wrong with that? Its democratic and has no relationship to enslavement. Your mantra mystifies me
Nonsense, it is not democratic at all, it is a corrupt, unnaccountable, elitest empire hell bent on coercive control.
If you can find some information to back that up other than from the Mail or Express or Telegraph it would be nice.
Otherwise just a rant "Oh look, and another rude and purile use of emoji. If you are ignorant of the facts do your own research. Just google 'EU corruption' and start working your way through the 91,300,000 results entries. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" It isnt about slavery either I am afraid. We are not now and never have been slaves to the EU....we actually are very well placed with our various opt outs compared to some of the newer members....its one of the reasons we dont have the Euro. I guess this is the nub of the matter....the EU although at times unwieldy is in general a positive place to be where things get done in much the same manner as the USA in that there are state and federal rules which differ slightly but allow for ease of traffic and business. I still cannot see what is wrong with that? Its democratic and has no relationship to enslavement. Your mantra mystifies me
Nonsense, it is not democratic at all, it is a corrupt, unnaccountable, elitest empire hell bent on coercive control.
If you can find some information to back that up other than from the Mail or Express or Telegraph it would be nice.
Otherwise just a rant
Oh look, and another rude and purile use of emoji. If you are ignorant of the facts do your own research. Just google 'EU corruption' and start working your way through the 91,300,000 results entries."Should I doff my cap to anyone on the way?
The sweeping statement of unverified "fact" is always the clincher.
Good win | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" We have a say. More of a say than other countries in the EU. 'Having a say' is not independence. If you cannot understand the difference you will never understand why anyone voted to leave. Besides, we have no say whatsoever over the rulings of the ECJ who's law has an entirely different basis to our own, and majority voting will increasingly take over the illusion of free choice anyway." Independence to do what? You sign a trade deal and you surrender independence. You have a military crisis you go and find allies. What "independence" are you missing that affects your life or anyone elses? We have no "say" in the rulings of the Supreme Court or the WTO. Nor should we. That is the point of the law. It does not have "an entirely different basis". It's a treaty court. It adjudicates on those matters only as do similar courts and arbitration panels on any other treaty. Look it up. Any increase in majority voting has to be agreed by us. We did the last time too. Nothing was imposed. We are such victims but are suddenly going to become incredibly strong when we leave the EU | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" We have a say. More of a say than other countries in the EU. 'Having a say' is not independence. If you cannot understand the difference you will never understand why anyone voted to leave. Besides, we have no say whatsoever over the rulings of the ECJ who's law has an entirely different basis to our own, and majority voting will increasingly take over the illusion of free choice anyway. Independence to do what? You sign a trade deal and you surrender independence. You have a military crisis you go and find allies. What "independence" are you missing that affects your life or anyone elses? We have no "say" in the rulings of the Supreme Court or the WTO. Nor should we. That is the point of the law. It does not have "an entirely different basis". It's a treaty court. It adjudicates on those matters only as do similar courts and arbitration panels on any other treaty. Look it up. Any increase in majority voting has to be agreed by us. We did the last time too. Nothing was imposed. We are such victims but are suddenly going to become incredibly strong when we leave the EU "Not victims, we voluntarily given up our freedoms, or our scheming political elite did anyway. Now we are going to get them back.
You need to research the difference between EU and UK systems of law. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" It isnt about slavery either I am afraid. We are not now and never have been slaves to the EU....we actually are very well placed with our various opt outs compared to some of the newer members....its one of the reasons we dont have the Euro. I guess this is the nub of the matter....the EU although at times unwieldy is in general a positive place to be where things get done in much the same manner as the USA in that there are state and federal rules which differ slightly but allow for ease of traffic and business. I still cannot see what is wrong with that? Its democratic and has no relationship to enslavement. Your mantra mystifies me
Nonsense, it is not democratic at all, it is a corrupt, unnaccountable, elitest empire hell bent on coercive control.
If you can find some information to back that up other than from the Mail or Express or Telegraph it would be nice.
Otherwise just a rant
Oh look, and another rude and purile use of emoji. If you are ignorant of the facts do your own research. Just google 'EU corruption' and start working your way through the 91,300,000 results entries.
Should I doff my cap to anyone on the way?
The sweeping statement of unverified "fact" is always the clincher.
Good win "Manners would enhance your discourse for sure. You want information, go find it - this is a sex site dear, I am under no obligation to educate you!!  | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" We have a say. More of a say than other countries in the EU. 'Having a say' is not independence. If you cannot understand the difference you will never understand why anyone voted to leave. Besides, we have no say whatsoever over the rulings of the ECJ who's law has an entirely different basis to our own, and majority voting will increasingly take over the illusion of free choice anyway. Independence to do what? You sign a trade deal and you surrender independence. You have a military crisis you go and find allies. What "independence" are you missing that affects your life or anyone elses? We have no "say" in the rulings of the Supreme Court or the WTO. Nor should we. That is the point of the law. It does not have "an entirely different basis". It's a treaty court. It adjudicates on those matters only as do similar courts and arbitration panels on any other treaty. Look it up. Any increase in majority voting has to be agreed by us. We did the last time too. Nothing was imposed. We are such victims but are suddenly going to become incredibly strong when we leave the EU
Not victims, we voluntarily given up our freedoms, or our scheming political elite did anyway. Now we are going to get them back.
You need to research the difference between EU and UK systems of law."Have a look at the WTO and other international courts of arbitration and the more secretive ones
So as a country our elected representatives made independent decisions?
That's good isn't it?  | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" It isnt about slavery either I am afraid. We are not now and never have been slaves to the EU....we actually are very well placed with our various opt outs compared to some of the newer members....its one of the reasons we dont have the Euro. I guess this is the nub of the matter....the EU although at times unwieldy is in general a positive place to be where things get done in much the same manner as the USA in that there are state and federal rules which differ slightly but allow for ease of traffic and business. I still cannot see what is wrong with that? Its democratic and has no relationship to enslavement. Your mantra mystifies me
Nonsense, it is not democratic at all, it is a corrupt, unnaccountable, elitest empire hell bent on coercive control.
If you can find some information to back that up other than from the Mail or Express or Telegraph it would be nice.
Otherwise just a rant
Oh look, and another rude and purile use of emoji. If you are ignorant of the facts do your own research. Just google 'EU corruption' and start working your way through the 91,300,000 results entries.
Should I doff my cap to anyone on the way?
The sweeping statement of unverified "fact" is always the clincher.
Good win
Manners would enhance your discourse for sure. You want information, go find it - this is a sex site dear, I am under no obligation to educate you!! "Excellent attempt at patronisation
Sweeping, unverified statements are what politicians and the foolish make.
If you do any research into anything you realise that things are complicated and you balance pros and cons.
If you see no pros to EU membership you have done no research.
If you see no pros to Labour policies you have done no research. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" We have a say. More of a say than other countries in the EU. 'Having a say' is not independence. If you cannot understand the difference you will never understand why anyone voted to leave. Besides, we have no say whatsoever over the rulings of the ECJ who's law has an entirely different basis to our own, and majority voting will increasingly take over the illusion of free choice anyway. Independence to do what? You sign a trade deal and you surrender independence. You have a military crisis you go and find allies. What "independence" are you missing that affects your life or anyone elses? We have no "say" in the rulings of the Supreme Court or the WTO. Nor should we. That is the point of the law. It does not have "an entirely different basis". It's a treaty court. It adjudicates on those matters only as do similar courts and arbitration panels on any other treaty. Look it up. Any increase in majority voting has to be agreed by us. We did the last time too. Nothing was imposed. We are such victims but are suddenly going to become incredibly strong when we leave the EU
Not victims, we voluntarily given up our freedoms, or our scheming political elite did anyway. Now we are going to get them back.
You need to research the difference between EU and UK systems of law.
Have a look at the WTO and other international courts of arbitration and the more secretive ones
So as a country our elected representatives made independent decisions?
That's good isn't it? "You've entirely missed my point. Do the research. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" It isnt about slavery either I am afraid. We are not now and never have been slaves to the EU....we actually are very well placed with our various opt outs compared to some of the newer members....its one of the reasons we dont have the Euro. I guess this is the nub of the matter....the EU although at times unwieldy is in general a positive place to be where things get done in much the same manner as the USA in that there are state and federal rules which differ slightly but allow for ease of traffic and business. I still cannot see what is wrong with that? Its democratic and has no relationship to enslavement. Your mantra mystifies me
Nonsense, it is not democratic at all, it is a corrupt, unnaccountable, elitest empire hell bent on coercive control.
If you can find some information to back that up other than from the Mail or Express or Telegraph it would be nice.
Otherwise just a rant
Oh look, and another rude and purile use of emoji. If you are ignorant of the facts do your own research. Just google 'EU corruption' and start working your way through the 91,300,000 results entries.
Should I doff my cap to anyone on the way?
The sweeping statement of unverified "fact" is always the clincher.
Good win
Manners would enhance your discourse for sure. You want information, go find it - this is a sex site dear, I am under no obligation to educate you!!
Excellent attempt at patronisation
Sweeping, unverified statements are what politicians and the foolish make.
If you do any research into anything you realise that things are complicated and you balance pros and cons.
If you see no pros to EU membership you have done no research.
If you see no pros to Labour policies you have done no research."I never said that - though in the latter case the cons VASTLY outweigh the pros, even life long Labour members are freely stating that! My opinion of the EU based on experience, observation and research going back to before you were even born and my conclusion is still the EU is a corrupt, unnaccountable, elitest empire hell bent on coercive control. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" It isnt about slavery either I am afraid. We are not now and never have been slaves to the EU....we actually are very well placed with our various opt outs compared to some of the newer members....its one of the reasons we dont have the Euro. I guess this is the nub of the matter....the EU although at times unwieldy is in general a positive place to be where things get done in much the same manner as the USA in that there are state and federal rules which differ slightly but allow for ease of traffic and business. I still cannot see what is wrong with that? Its democratic and has no relationship to enslavement. Your mantra mystifies me
Nonsense, it is not democratic at all, it is a corrupt, unnaccountable, elitest empire hell bent on coercive control.
If you can find some information to back that up other than from the Mail or Express or Telegraph it would be nice.
Otherwise just a rant
Oh look, and another rude and purile use of emoji. If you are ignorant of the facts do your own research. Just google 'EU corruption' and start working your way through the 91,300,000 results entries.
Should I doff my cap to anyone on the way?
The sweeping statement of unverified "fact" is always the clincher.
Good win
Manners would enhance your discourse for sure. You want information, go find it - this is a sex site dear, I am under no obligation to educate you!!
Excellent attempt at patronisation
Sweeping, unverified statements are what politicians and the foolish make.
If you do any research into anything you realise that things are complicated and you balance pros and cons.
If you see no pros to EU membership you have done no research.
If you see no pros to Labour policies you have done no research.
I never said that - though in the latter case the cons VASTLY outweigh the pros, even life long Labour members are freely stating that!
My opinion of the EU based on experience, observation and research going back to before you were even born and my conclusion is still the EU is a corrupt, unnaccountable, elitest empire hell bent on coercive control."In your opinion. Pretty much half the country disagrees with you. So there is a balance which tips one way or other depending on the individual and the information they have or choose to accept. Older does not mean wiser. I like the EU. O see many benefits, socially, economically and geopolitically. How will you benefit, specifically, if we leave the EU? How will I benefit despite my doubts? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" We have a say. More of a say than other countries in the EU. 'Having a say' is not independence. If you cannot understand the difference you will never understand why anyone voted to leave. Besides, we have no say whatsoever over the rulings of the ECJ who's law has an entirely different basis to our own, and majority voting will increasingly take over the illusion of free choice anyway. Independence to do what? You sign a trade deal and you surrender independence. You have a military crisis you go and find allies. What "independence" are you missing that affects your life or anyone elses? We have no "say" in the rulings of the Supreme Court or the WTO. Nor should we. That is the point of the law. It does not have "an entirely different basis". It's a treaty court. It adjudicates on those matters only as do similar courts and arbitration panels on any other treaty. Look it up. Any increase in majority voting has to be agreed by us. We did the last time too. Nothing was imposed. We are such victims but are suddenly going to become incredibly strong when we leave the EU
Not victims, we voluntarily given up our freedoms, or our scheming political elite did anyway. Now we are going to get them back.
You need to research the difference between EU and UK systems of law.
Have a look at the WTO and other international courts of arbitration and the more secretive ones
So as a country our elected representatives made independent decisions?
That's good isn't it?
You've entirely missed my point. Do the research."You have no point, or demonstrated it extremely poorly | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" We have a say. More of a say than other countries in the EU. 'Having a say' is not independence. If you cannot understand the difference you will never understand why anyone voted to leave. Besides, we have no say whatsoever over the rulings of the ECJ who's law has an entirely different basis to our own, and majority voting will increasingly take over the illusion of free choice anyway. Independence to do what? You sign a trade deal and you surrender independence. You have a military crisis you go and find allies. What "independence" are you missing that affects your life or anyone elses? We have no "say" in the rulings of the Supreme Court or the WTO. Nor should we. That is the point of the law. It does not have "an entirely different basis". It's a treaty court. It adjudicates on those matters only as do similar courts and arbitration panels on any other treaty. Look it up. Any increase in majority voting has to be agreed by us. We did the last time too. Nothing was imposed. We are such victims but are suddenly going to become incredibly strong when we leave the EU
Not victims, we voluntarily given up our freedoms, or our scheming political elite did anyway. Now we are going to get them back.
You need to research the difference between EU and UK systems of law.
Have a look at the WTO and other international courts of arbitration and the more secretive ones
So as a country our elected representatives made independent decisions?
That's good isn't it?
You've entirely missed my point. Do the research.
You have no point, or demonstrated it extremely poorly "It's up to you to look into it if you want to understand. I have no problem with you choosing not to, I believe in free choice. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" It isnt about slavery either I am afraid. We are not now and never have been slaves to the EU....we actually are very well placed with our various opt outs compared to some of the newer members....its one of the reasons we dont have the Euro. I guess this is the nub of the matter....the EU although at times unwieldy is in general a positive place to be where things get done in much the same manner as the USA in that there are state and federal rules which differ slightly but allow for ease of traffic and business. I still cannot see what is wrong with that? Its democratic and has no relationship to enslavement. Your mantra mystifies me
Nonsense, it is not democratic at all, it is a corrupt, unnaccountable, elitest empire hell bent on coercive control.
If you can find some information to back that up other than from the Mail or Express or Telegraph it would be nice.
Otherwise just a rant
Oh look, and another rude and purile use of emoji. If you are ignorant of the facts do your own research. Just google 'EU corruption' and start working your way through the 91,300,000 results entries.
Should I doff my cap to anyone on the way?
The sweeping statement of unverified "fact" is always the clincher.
Good win
Manners would enhance your discourse for sure. You want information, go find it - this is a sex site dear, I am under no obligation to educate you!!
Excellent attempt at patronisation
Sweeping, unverified statements are what politicians and the foolish make.
If you do any research into anything you realise that things are complicated and you balance pros and cons.
If you see no pros to EU membership you have done no research.
If you see no pros to Labour policies you have done no research.
I never said that - though in the latter case the cons VASTLY outweigh the pros, even life long Labour members are freely stating that!
My opinion of the EU based on experience, observation and research going back to before you were even born and my conclusion is still the EU is a corrupt, unnaccountable, elitest empire hell bent on coercive control.
In your opinion.
Pretty much half the country disagrees with you.
So there is a balance which tips one way or other depending on the individual and the information they have or choose to accept.
Older does not mean wiser.
I like the EU. O see many benefits, socially, economically and geopolitically.
How will you benefit, specifically, if we leave the EU? How will I benefit despite my doubts?"Older often means wiser, and more experienced, and youth is often wasted on the young! We both hopefully be living in a free sovereign nation, a priceless prize. I believe our country will prosper more in time, but I am not looking for financial benefit. You will still be able to succeed or fail either way. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" We have a say. More of a say than other countries in the EU. 'Having a say' is not independence. If you cannot understand the difference you will never understand why anyone voted to leave. Besides, we have no say whatsoever over the rulings of the ECJ who's law has an entirely different basis to our own, and majority voting will increasingly take over the illusion of free choice anyway." if by the fact that the ECJ agrees with the UK courts 98.7% of the time in cases that were brought to them, then sure!!!!! | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" We have a say. More of a say than other countries in the EU. 'Having a say' is not independence. If you cannot understand the difference you will never understand why anyone voted to leave. Besides, we have no say whatsoever over the rulings of the ECJ who's law has an entirely different basis to our own, and majority voting will increasingly take over the illusion of free choice anyway. if by the fact that the ECJ agrees with the UK courts 98.7% of the time in cases that were brought to them, then sure!!!!! "Of course, our courts are generally superior. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" It isnt about slavery either I am afraid. We are not now and never have been slaves to the EU....we actually are very well placed with our various opt outs compared to some of the newer members....its one of the reasons we dont have the Euro. I guess this is the nub of the matter....the EU although at times unwieldy is in general a positive place to be where things get done in much the same manner as the USA in that there are state and federal rules which differ slightly but allow for ease of traffic and business. I still cannot see what is wrong with that? Its democratic and has no relationship to enslavement. Your mantra mystifies me
Nonsense, it is not democratic at all, it is a corrupt, unnaccountable, elitest empire hell bent on coercive control.
If you can find some information to back that up other than from the Mail or Express or Telegraph it would be nice.
Otherwise just a rant
Oh look, and another rude and purile use of emoji. If you are ignorant of the facts do your own research. Just google 'EU corruption' and start working your way through the 91,300,000 results entries.
Should I doff my cap to anyone on the way?
The sweeping statement of unverified "fact" is always the clincher.
Good win
Manners would enhance your discourse for sure. You want information, go find it - this is a sex site dear, I am under no obligation to educate you!!
Excellent attempt at patronisation
Sweeping, unverified statements are what politicians and the foolish make.
If you do any research into anything you realise that things are complicated and you balance pros and cons.
If you see no pros to EU membership you have done no research.
If you see no pros to Labour policies you have done no research.
I never said that - though in the latter case the cons VASTLY outweigh the pros, even life long Labour members are freely stating that!
My opinion of the EU based on experience, observation and research going back to before you were even born and my conclusion is still the EU is a corrupt, unnaccountable, elitest empire hell bent on coercive control.
In your opinion.
Pretty much half the country disagrees with you.
So there is a balance which tips one way or other depending on the individual and the information they have or choose to accept.
Older does not mean wiser.
I like the EU. O see many benefits, socially, economically and geopolitically.
How will you benefit, specifically, if we leave the EU? How will I benefit despite my doubts?
Older often means wiser, and more experienced, and youth is often wasted on the young! We both hopefully be living in a free sovereign nation, a priceless prize. I believe our country will prosper more in time, but I am not looking for financial benefit. You will still be able to succeed or fail either way."Sometimes it does. You have demonstrated that in this case, definitely not. "Freedom" to do what that we cannot do now? What aspect of "sovereignty" are you missing? "Belief" in prosperity is meaningless without a strategy. Any specific factors that will benefit someone other than those who wish to deregulate industries and working conditions? How will prosperity be achieved through surrendering our "freedom" from leading a global superpower? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" We have a say. More of a say than other countries in the EU. 'Having a say' is not independence. If you cannot understand the difference you will never understand why anyone voted to leave. Besides, we have no say whatsoever over the rulings of the ECJ who's law has an entirely different basis to our own, and majority voting will increasingly take over the illusion of free choice anyway. if by the fact that the ECJ agrees with the UK courts 98.7% of the time in cases that were brought to them, then sure!!!!!
Of course, our courts are generally superior. "...but they are "enemies of the people". They also seem to disagree with our Prime Minister's interpretation of sovereignty. They think that Parliament is supreme not the executive | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" I believe our country will prosper more in time, but I am not looking for financial benefit. You will still be able to succeed or fail either way." People believe the earth is flat for no reason. We know it's not flat. People believe (even some on here), that science isn't real, and that the earth is heating up more rapidly than it ever has before, on its own for no reason. We know it's down to human activity. People believe that the moon is made of cheese. We know that its not. You believe that the country will prosper after brexit and you can succeed either way. Based on no information what-so-ever. We know the country will struggle and we know it will be a lot more difficult to succeed. People have ruined this country based purely on "belief", instead we should have used reason, logical/critical thinking, compassion, information, and some common sense. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"Fascinating....watching pragmatism versus an emotional dream. When you start prodding and probing at a lot of leavers thinking it all seems to come down to them belief in an illusion of being good and right and strong and more sensible than the “lefty” remainers. It seems to be wrapped up in a desire to appear superior or just effective which always strikes me as if they are failing in some way personally and allowing their anxieties to rule their heads but then maybe I expect too much "Freedom is a noble principle for sure. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" I believe our country will prosper more in time, but I am not looking for financial benefit. You will still be able to succeed or fail either way. People believe the earth is flat for no reason. We know it's not flat. People believe (even some on here), that science isn't real, and that the earth is heating up more rapidly than it ever has before, on its own for no reason. We know it's down to human activity. People believe that the moon is made of cheese. We know that its not. You believe that the country will prosper after brexit and you can succeed either way. Based on no information what-so-ever. We know the country will struggle and we know it will be a lot more difficult to succeed. People have ruined this country based purely on "belief", instead we should have used reason, logical/critical thinking, compassion, information, and some common sense." Yup. That's what I base my belief on, you base yours on groundless fears of you want. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" I believe our country will prosper more in time, but I am not looking for financial benefit. You will still be able to succeed or fail either way. People believe the earth is flat for no reason. We know it's not flat. People believe (even some on here), that science isn't real, and that the earth is heating up more rapidly than it ever has before, on its own for no reason. We know it's down to human activity. People believe that the moon is made of cheese. We know that its not. You believe that the country will prosper after brexit and you can succeed either way. Based on no information what-so-ever. We know the country will struggle and we know it will be a lot more difficult to succeed. People have ruined this country based purely on "belief", instead we should have used reason, logical/critical thinking, compassion, information, and some common sense. Yup. That's what I base my belief on, you base yours on groundless fears of you want. " They are not groundless though are they. Even the High Priest of Brexit himself said it would be 50 years before we were sorted... | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" It isnt about slavery either I am afraid. We are not now and never have been slaves to the EU....we actually are very well placed with our various opt outs compared to some of the newer members....its one of the reasons we dont have the Euro. I guess this is the nub of the matter....the EU although at times unwieldy is in general a positive place to be where things get done in much the same manner as the USA in that there are state and federal rules which differ slightly but allow for ease of traffic and business. I still cannot see what is wrong with that? Its democratic and has no relationship to enslavement. Your mantra mystifies me
Nonsense, it is not democratic at all, it is a corrupt, unnaccountable, elitest empire hell bent on coercive control.
If you can find some information to back that up other than from the Mail or Express or Telegraph it would be nice.
Otherwise just a rant
Oh look, and another rude and purile use of emoji. If you are ignorant of the facts do your own research. Just google 'EU corruption' and start working your way through the 91,300,000 results entries.
Should I doff my cap to anyone on the way?
The sweeping statement of unverified "fact" is always the clincher.
Good win
Manners would enhance your discourse for sure. You want information, go find it - this is a sex site dear, I am under no obligation to educate you!!
Excellent attempt at patronisation
Sweeping, unverified statements are what politicians and the foolish make.
If you do any research into anything you realise that things are complicated and you balance pros and cons.
If you see no pros to EU membership you have done no research.
If you see no pros to Labour policies you have done no research.
I never said that - though in the latter case the cons VASTLY outweigh the pros, even life long Labour members are freely stating that!
My opinion of the EU based on experience, observation and research going back to before you were even born and my conclusion is still the EU is a corrupt, unnaccountable, elitest empire hell bent on coercive control.
In your opinion.
Pretty much half the country disagrees with you.
So there is a balance which tips one way or other depending on the individual and the information they have or choose to accept.
Older does not mean wiser.
I like the EU. O see many benefits, socially, economically and geopolitically.
How will you benefit, specifically, if we leave the EU? How will I benefit despite my doubts?
Older often means wiser, and more experienced, and youth is often wasted on the young! We both hopefully be living in a free sovereign nation, a priceless prize. I believe our country will prosper more in time, but I am not looking for financial benefit. You will still be able to succeed or fail either way.
Sometimes it does. You have demonstrated that in this case, definitely not.
"Freedom" to do what that we cannot do now?
What aspect of "sovereignty" are you missing?
"Belief" in prosperity is meaningless without a strategy.
Any specific factors that will benefit someone other than those who wish to deregulate industries and working conditions?
How will prosperity be achieved through surrendering our "freedom" from leading a global superpower?"Haha you really do have Stockholm Syndrome don't you! | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" It isnt about slavery either I am afraid. We are not now and never have been slaves to the EU....we actually are very well placed with our various opt outs compared to some of the newer members....its one of the reasons we dont have the Euro. I guess this is the nub of the matter....the EU although at times unwieldy is in general a positive place to be where things get done in much the same manner as the USA in that there are state and federal rules which differ slightly but allow for ease of traffic and business. I still cannot see what is wrong with that? Its democratic and has no relationship to enslavement. Your mantra mystifies me
Nonsense, it is not democratic at all, it is a corrupt, unnaccountable, elitest empire hell bent on coercive control.
If you can find some information to back that up other than from the Mail or Express or Telegraph it would be nice.
Otherwise just a rant
Oh look, and another rude and purile use of emoji. If you are ignorant of the facts do your own research. Just google 'EU corruption' and start working your way through the 91,300,000 results entries.
Should I doff my cap to anyone on the way?
The sweeping statement of unverified "fact" is always the clincher.
Good win
Manners would enhance your discourse for sure. You want information, go find it - this is a sex site dear, I am under no obligation to educate you!!
Excellent attempt at patronisation
Sweeping, unverified statements are what politicians and the foolish make.
If you do any research into anything you realise that things are complicated and you balance pros and cons.
If you see no pros to EU membership you have done no research.
If you see no pros to Labour policies you have done no research.
I never said that - though in the latter case the cons VASTLY outweigh the pros, even life long Labour members are freely stating that!
My opinion of the EU based on experience, observation and research going back to before you were even born and my conclusion is still the EU is a corrupt, unnaccountable, elitest empire hell bent on coercive control.
In your opinion.
Pretty much half the country disagrees with you.
So there is a balance which tips one way or other depending on the individual and the information they have or choose to accept.
Older does not mean wiser.
I like the EU. O see many benefits, socially, economically and geopolitically.
How will you benefit, specifically, if we leave the EU? How will I benefit despite my doubts?
Older often means wiser, and more experienced, and youth is often wasted on the young! We both hopefully be living in a free sovereign nation, a priceless prize. I believe our country will prosper more in time, but I am not looking for financial benefit. You will still be able to succeed or fail either way.
Sometimes it does. You have demonstrated that in this case, definitely not.
"Freedom" to do what that we cannot do now?
What aspect of "sovereignty" are you missing?
"Belief" in prosperity is meaningless without a strategy.
Any specific factors that will benefit someone other than those who wish to deregulate industries and working conditions?
How will prosperity be achieved through surrendering our "freedom" from leading a global superpower?
Haha you really do have Stockholm Syndrome don't you! "
No response, so change of subject
You can make your decisions based on emotion and instinct. That's perfectly valid way to make political decisions.
Don't, however, argue that there are logical reasons for your belief if you are unable to articulate them in any way. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" It isnt about slavery either I am afraid. We are not now and never have been slaves to the EU....we actually are very well placed with our various opt outs compared to some of the newer members....its one of the reasons we dont have the Euro. I guess this is the nub of the matter....the EU although at times unwieldy is in general a positive place to be where things get done in much the same manner as the USA in that there are state and federal rules which differ slightly but allow for ease of traffic and business. I still cannot see what is wrong with that? Its democratic and has no relationship to enslavement. Your mantra mystifies me
Nonsense, it is not democratic at all, it is a corrupt, unnaccountable, elitest empire hell bent on coercive control.
If you can find some information to back that up other than from the Mail or Express or Telegraph it would be nice.
Otherwise just a rant
Oh look, and another rude and purile use of emoji. If you are ignorant of the facts do your own research. Just google 'EU corruption' and start working your way through the 91,300,000 results entries.
Should I doff my cap to anyone on the way?
The sweeping statement of unverified "fact" is always the clincher.
Good win
Manners would enhance your discourse for sure. You want information, go find it - this is a sex site dear, I am under no obligation to educate you!!
Excellent attempt at patronisation
Sweeping, unverified statements are what politicians and the foolish make.
If you do any research into anything you realise that things are complicated and you balance pros and cons.
If you see no pros to EU membership you have done no research.
If you see no pros to Labour policies you have done no research.
I never said that - though in the latter case the cons VASTLY outweigh the pros, even life long Labour members are freely stating that!
My opinion of the EU based on experience, observation and research going back to before you were even born and my conclusion is still the EU is a corrupt, unnaccountable, elitest empire hell bent on coercive control.
In your opinion.
Pretty much half the country disagrees with you.
So there is a balance which tips one way or other depending on the individual and the information they have or choose to accept.
Older does not mean wiser.
I like the EU. O see many benefits, socially, economically and geopolitically.
How will you benefit, specifically, if we leave the EU? How will I benefit despite my doubts?
Older often means wiser, and more experienced, and youth is often wasted on the young! We both hopefully be living in a free sovereign nation, a priceless prize. I believe our country will prosper more in time, but I am not looking for financial benefit. You will still be able to succeed or fail either way.
Sometimes it does. You have demonstrated that in this case, definitely not.
"Freedom" to do what that we cannot do now?
What aspect of "sovereignty" are you missing?
"Belief" in prosperity is meaningless without a strategy.
Any specific factors that will benefit someone other than those who wish to deregulate industries and working conditions?
How will prosperity be achieved through surrendering our "freedom" from leading a global superpower?
Haha you really do have Stockholm Syndrome don't you!
No response, so change of subject
You can make your decisions based on emotion and instinct. That's perfectly valid way to make political decisions.
Don't, however, argue that there are logical reasons for your belief if you are unable to articulate them in any way."Lol, have you seen the state of the EU economies lately? Don't confuse unwilling and unable, you are simply not pleasant enough or interesting enough for me to want to discuss anything in any depth. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" I believe our country will prosper more in time, but I am not looking for financial benefit. You will still be able to succeed or fail either way. People believe the earth is flat for no reason. We know it's not flat. People believe (even some on here), that science isn't real, and that the earth is heating up more rapidly than it ever has before, on its own for no reason. We know it's down to human activity. People believe that the moon is made of cheese. We know that its not. You believe that the country will prosper after brexit and you can succeed either way. Based on no information what-so-ever. We know the country will struggle and we know it will be a lot more difficult to succeed. People have ruined this country based purely on "belief", instead we should have used reason, logical/critical thinking, compassion, information, and some common sense. Yup. That's what I base my belief on, you base yours on groundless fears of you want." You can't just repeat lies until they become true. That's just not reality. I don't have a "belief" about brexit. We don't need faith, we know it's a massive dog turd. Because there are facts and evidence to show that and there are no facts and evidence to suggest it will be even vaguely beneficial. Can you give me one single, individual, piece of information that backs up your "belief" that brexit will be good? And not just catchphrases, an actual real life thing. And it has to be good for the UK. Not just good for Rees-Moggs bank account. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Lol, have you seen the state of the EU economies lately? Don't confuse unwilling and unable, you are simply not pleasant enough or interesting enough for me to want to discuss anything in any depth. " if you are going to use that arguement then you need to use the figures.... GDP growth in the eurozone last year was rounded down from 2.0% to 1.7%.... GDP growth in the UK last year was rounded down from 1.5% to 1.2%..... in each of the next 4 years the prediction is that growth in the Eurozone will be higher than growth in the UK...... the problem is that leavers "belief" is based on hope..... unfortunately as an economist will tell you... "hope" is not a strategy | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Lol, have you seen the state of the EU economies lately? Don't confuse unwilling and unable, you are simply not pleasant enough or interesting enough for me to want to discuss anything in any depth. if you are going to use that arguement then you need to use the figures.... GDP growth in the eurozone last year was rounded down from 2.0% to 1.7%.... GDP growth in the UK last year was rounded down from 1.5% to 1.2%..... in each of the next 4 years the prediction is that growth in the Eurozone will be higher than growth in the UK...... the problem is that leavers "belief" is based on hope..... unfortunately as an economist will tell you... "hope" is not a strategy" Its quiet easy to lump all the figures together in the euro zone to get an average but does not project the real figures Poland and Romania are doing extremely well along with spain where as the larger economies like germany and france are stagnating. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" It isnt about slavery either I am afraid. We are not now and never have been slaves to the EU....we actually are very well placed with our various opt outs compared to some of the newer members....its one of the reasons we dont have the Euro. I guess this is the nub of the matter....the EU although at times unwieldy is in general a positive place to be where things get done in much the same manner as the USA in that there are state and federal rules which differ slightly but allow for ease of traffic and business. I still cannot see what is wrong with that? Its democratic and has no relationship to enslavement. Your mantra mystifies me
Nonsense, it is not democratic at all, it is a corrupt, unnaccountable, elitest empire hell bent on coercive control.
If you can find some information to back that up other than from the Mail or Express or Telegraph it would be nice.
Otherwise just a rant
Oh look, and another rude and purile use of emoji. If you are ignorant of the facts do your own research. Just google 'EU corruption' and start working your way through the 91,300,000 results entries.
Should I doff my cap to anyone on the way?
The sweeping statement of unverified "fact" is always the clincher.
Good win
Manners would enhance your discourse for sure. You want information, go find it - this is a sex site dear, I am under no obligation to educate you!!
Excellent attempt at patronisation
Sweeping, unverified statements are what politicians and the foolish make.
If you do any research into anything you realise that things are complicated and you balance pros and cons.
If you see no pros to EU membership you have done no research.
If you see no pros to Labour policies you have done no research.
I never said that - though in the latter case the cons VASTLY outweigh the pros, even life long Labour members are freely stating that!
My opinion of the EU based on experience, observation and research going back to before you were even born and my conclusion is still the EU is a corrupt, unnaccountable, elitest empire hell bent on coercive control.
In your opinion.
Pretty much half the country disagrees with you.
So there is a balance which tips one way or other depending on the individual and the information they have or choose to accept.
Older does not mean wiser.
I like the EU. O see many benefits, socially, economically and geopolitically.
How will you benefit, specifically, if we leave the EU? How will I benefit despite my doubts?
Older often means wiser, and more experienced, and youth is often wasted on the young! We both hopefully be living in a free sovereign nation, a priceless prize. I believe our country will prosper more in time, but I am not looking for financial benefit. You will still be able to succeed or fail either way.
Sometimes it does. You have demonstrated that in this case, definitely not.
"Freedom" to do what that we cannot do now?
What aspect of "sovereignty" are you missing?
"Belief" in prosperity is meaningless without a strategy.
Any specific factors that will benefit someone other than those who wish to deregulate industries and working conditions?
How will prosperity be achieved through surrendering our "freedom" from leading a global superpower?
Haha you really do have Stockholm Syndrome don't you!
No response, so change of subject
You can make your decisions based on emotion and instinct. That's perfectly valid way to make political decisions.
Don't, however, argue that there are logical reasons for your belief if you are unable to articulate them in any way.
Lol, have you seen the state of the EU economies lately? Don't confuse unwilling and unable, you are simply not pleasant enough or interesting enough for me to want to discuss anything in any depth. "Not significantly different to ours or how they have historically been relative to each other. Ironically ours was the strongest that it had ever been before the referendum. You haven't debated anything with anyone. You have just made unverified statements as that is all you appear to have | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Lol, have you seen the state of the EU economies lately? Don't confuse unwilling and unable, you are simply not pleasant enough or interesting enough for me to want to discuss anything in any depth. if you are going to use that arguement then you need to use the figures.... GDP growth in the eurozone last year was rounded down from 2.0% to 1.7%.... GDP growth in the UK last year was rounded down from 1.5% to 1.2%..... in each of the next 4 years the prediction is that growth in the Eurozone will be higher than growth in the UK...... the problem is that leavers "belief" is based on hope..... unfortunately as an economist will tell you... "hope" is not a strategyIts quiet easy to lump all the figures together in the euro zone to get an average but does not project the real figures Poland and Romania are doing extremely well along with spain where as the larger economies like germany and france are stagnating." So are you saying that each country is performing differently based on their individual sovereign decisions and circumstances? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Lol, have you seen the state of the EU economies lately? Don't confuse unwilling and unable, you are simply not pleasant enough or interesting enough for me to want to discuss anything in any depth. if you are going to use that arguement then you need to use the figures.... GDP growth in the eurozone last year was rounded down from 2.0% to 1.7%.... GDP growth in the UK last year was rounded down from 1.5% to 1.2%..... in each of the next 4 years the prediction is that growth in the Eurozone will be higher than growth in the UK...... the problem is that leavers "belief" is based on hope..... unfortunately as an economist will tell you... "hope" is not a strategyIts quiet easy to lump all the figures together in the euro zone to get an average but does not project the real figures Poland and Romania are doing extremely well along with spain where as the larger economies like germany and france are stagnating." you friend "fisky" is the one who lumped "all the EU economies" together.... maybe you might like to have a chat with her about her assumption.... I was answering the generalisation she tried badly/falsely (delete whichever you believe) to put out there...... | |||
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| Reply privately |
" Its quiet easy to lump all the figures together in the euro zone to get an average but does not project the real figures Poland and Romania are doing extremely well along with spain where as the larger economies like germany and france are stagnating." And here's me thinking leavers have been arguing that staying in the EU will drag us economically down with them
Ohh what it must be like to be consistent | |||
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| Reply privately |
" Its quiet easy to lump all the figures together in the euro zone to get an average but does not project the real figures Poland and Romania are doing extremely well along with spain where as the larger economies like germany and france are stagnating. And here's me thinking leavers have been arguing that staying in the EU will drag us economically down with them
Ohh what it must be like to be consistent "yes i see some have not me though i have plenty of european friends and wouldnt like to see them fail i just dont want to be in their club. | |||
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" It isnt about slavery either I am afraid. We are not now and never have been slaves to the EU....we actually are very well placed with our various opt outs compared to some of the newer members....its one of the reasons we dont have the Euro. I guess this is the nub of the matter....the EU although at times unwieldy is in general a positive place to be where things get done in much the same manner as the USA in that there are state and federal rules which differ slightly but allow for ease of traffic and business. I still cannot see what is wrong with that? Its democratic and has no relationship to enslavement. Your mantra mystifies me
Nonsense, it is not democratic at all, it is a corrupt, unnaccountable, elitest empire hell bent on coercive control.
If you can find some information to back that up other than from the Mail or Express or Telegraph it would be nice.
Otherwise just a rant
Oh look, and another rude and purile use of emoji. If you are ignorant of the facts do your own research. Just google 'EU corruption' and start working your way through the 91,300,000 results entries.
Should I doff my cap to anyone on the way?
The sweeping statement of unverified "fact" is always the clincher.
Good win
Manners would enhance your discourse for sure. You want information, go find it - this is a sex site dear, I am under no obligation to educate you!!
Excellent attempt at patronisation
Sweeping, unverified statements are what politicians and the foolish make.
If you do any research into anything you realise that things are complicated and you balance pros and cons.
If you see no pros to EU membership you have done no research.
If you see no pros to Labour policies you have done no research.
I never said that - though in the latter case the cons VASTLY outweigh the pros, even life long Labour members are freely stating that!
My opinion of the EU based on experience, observation and research going back to before you were even born and my conclusion is still the EU is a corrupt, unnaccountable, elitest empire hell bent on coercive control.
In your opinion.
Pretty much half the country disagrees with you.
So there is a balance which tips one way or other depending on the individual and the information they have or choose to accept.
Older does not mean wiser.
I like the EU. O see many benefits, socially, economically and geopolitically.
How will you benefit, specifically, if we leave the EU? How will I benefit despite my doubts?
Older often means wiser, and more experienced, and youth is often wasted on the young! We both hopefully be living in a free sovereign nation, a priceless prize. I believe our country will prosper more in time, but I am not looking for financial benefit. You will still be able to succeed or fail either way.
Sometimes it does. You have demonstrated that in this case, definitely not.
"Freedom" to do what that we cannot do now?
What aspect of "sovereignty" are you missing?
"Belief" in prosperity is meaningless without a strategy.
Any specific factors that will benefit someone other than those who wish to deregulate industries and working conditions?
How will prosperity be achieved through surrendering our "freedom" from leading a global superpower?
Haha you really do have Stockholm Syndrome don't you!
No response, so change of subject
You can make your decisions based on emotion and instinct. That's perfectly valid way to make political decisions.
Don't, however, argue that there are logical reasons for your belief if you are unable to articulate them in any way.
Lol, have you seen the state of the EU economies lately? Don't confuse unwilling and unable, you are simply not pleasant enough or interesting enough for me to want to discuss anything in any depth.
Not significantly different to ours or how they have historically been relative to each other.
Ironically ours was the strongest that it had ever been before the referendum.
You haven't debated anything with anyone. You have just made unverified statements as that is all you appear to have "Nope, just all the time I am willing to expend for people like you | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Lol, have you seen the state of the EU economies lately? Don't confuse unwilling and unable, you are simply not pleasant enough or interesting enough for me to want to discuss anything in any depth. if you are going to use that arguement then you need to use the figures.... GDP growth in the eurozone last year was rounded down from 2.0% to 1.7%.... GDP growth in the UK last year was rounded down from 1.5% to 1.2%..... in each of the next 4 years the prediction is that growth in the Eurozone will be higher than growth in the UK...... the problem is that leavers "belief" is based on hope..... unfortunately as an economist will tell you... "hope" is not a strategyIts quiet easy to lump all the figures together in the euro zone to get an average but does not project the real figures Poland and Romania are doing extremely well along with spain where as the larger economies like germany and france are stagnating." Yup, the other two bankrollers of Europe. Have you read about German fears over the eurozone economy? I reckon the whole thing will collapse myself. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Its quiet easy to lump all the figures together in the euro zone to get an average but does not project the real figures Poland and Romania are doing extremely well along with spain where as the larger economies like germany and france are stagnating. And here's me thinking leavers have been arguing that staying in the EU will drag us economically down with them
Ohh what it must be like to be consistent yes i see some have not me though i have plenty of european friends and wouldnt like to see them fail i just dont want to be in their club."Nor picking up the tab when they do. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" It isnt about slavery either I am afraid. We are not now and never have been slaves to the EU....we actually are very well placed with our various opt outs compared to some of the newer members....its one of the reasons we dont have the Euro. I guess this is the nub of the matter....the EU although at times unwieldy is in general a positive place to be where things get done in much the same manner as the USA in that there are state and federal rules which differ slightly but allow for ease of traffic and business. I still cannot see what is wrong with that? Its democratic and has no relationship to enslavement. Your mantra mystifies me
Nonsense, it is not democratic at all, it is a corrupt, unnaccountable, elitest empire hell bent on coercive control.
If you can find some information to back that up other than from the Mail or Express or Telegraph it would be nice.
Otherwise just a rant
Oh look, and another rude and purile use of emoji. If you are ignorant of the facts do your own research. Just google 'EU corruption' and start working your way through the 91,300,000 results entries.
Should I doff my cap to anyone on the way?
The sweeping statement of unverified "fact" is always the clincher.
Good win
Manners would enhance your discourse for sure. You want information, go find it - this is a sex site dear, I am under no obligation to educate you!!
Excellent attempt at patronisation
Sweeping, unverified statements are what politicians and the foolish make.
If you do any research into anything you realise that things are complicated and you balance pros and cons.
If you see no pros to EU membership you have done no research.
If you see no pros to Labour policies you have done no research.
I never said that - though in the latter case the cons VASTLY outweigh the pros, even life long Labour members are freely stating that!
My opinion of the EU based on experience, observation and research going back to before you were even born and my conclusion is still the EU is a corrupt, unnaccountable, elitest empire hell bent on coercive control.
In your opinion.
Pretty much half the country disagrees with you.
So there is a balance which tips one way or other depending on the individual and the information they have or choose to accept.
Older does not mean wiser.
I like the EU. O see many benefits, socially, economically and geopolitically.
How will you benefit, specifically, if we leave the EU? How will I benefit despite my doubts?
Older often means wiser, and more experienced, and youth is often wasted on the young! We both hopefully be living in a free sovereign nation, a priceless prize. I believe our country will prosper more in time, but I am not looking for financial benefit. You will still be able to succeed or fail either way.
Sometimes it does. You have demonstrated that in this case, definitely not.
"Freedom" to do what that we cannot do now?
What aspect of "sovereignty" are you missing?
"Belief" in prosperity is meaningless without a strategy.
Any specific factors that will benefit someone other than those who wish to deregulate industries and working conditions?
How will prosperity be achieved through surrendering our "freedom" from leading a global superpower?
Haha you really do have Stockholm Syndrome don't you!
No response, so change of subject
You can make your decisions based on emotion and instinct. That's perfectly valid way to make political decisions.
Don't, however, argue that there are logical reasons for your belief if you are unable to articulate them in any way.
Lol, have you seen the state of the EU economies lately? Don't confuse unwilling and unable, you are simply not pleasant enough or interesting enough for me to want to discuss anything in any depth.
Not significantly different to ours or how they have historically been relative to each other.
Ironically ours was the strongest that it had ever been before the referendum.
You haven't debated anything with anyone. You have just made unverified statements as that is all you appear to have
Nope, just all the time I am willing to expend for people like you "Still nothing then. Understood | |||
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" Lol, have you seen the state of the EU economies lately? Don't confuse unwilling and unable, you are simply not pleasant enough or interesting enough for me to want to discuss anything in any depth. if you are going to use that arguement then you need to use the figures.... GDP growth in the eurozone last year was rounded down from 2.0% to 1.7%.... GDP growth in the UK last year was rounded down from 1.5% to 1.2%..... in each of the next 4 years the prediction is that growth in the Eurozone will be higher than growth in the UK...... the problem is that leavers "belief" is based on hope..... unfortunately as an economist will tell you... "hope" is not a strategyIts quiet easy to lump all the figures together in the euro zone to get an average but does not project the real figures Poland and Romania are doing extremely well along with spain where as the larger economies like germany and france are stagnating. Yup, the other two bankrollers of Europe. Have you read about German fears over the eurozone economy? I reckon the whole thing will collapse myself." I wouldnt like to see that as so many would be effected but it does seem a bit like a pyramid selling scheme to me. | |||
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" Lol, have you seen the state of the EU economies lately? Don't confuse unwilling and unable, you are simply not pleasant enough or interesting enough for me to want to discuss anything in any depth. if you are going to use that arguement then you need to use the figures.... GDP growth in the eurozone last year was rounded down from 2.0% to 1.7%.... GDP growth in the UK last year was rounded down from 1.5% to 1.2%..... in each of the next 4 years the prediction is that growth in the Eurozone will be higher than growth in the UK...... the problem is that leavers "belief" is based on hope..... unfortunately as an economist will tell you... "hope" is not a strategyIts quiet easy to lump all the figures together in the euro zone to get an average but does not project the real figures Poland and Romania are doing extremely well along with spain where as the larger economies like germany and france are stagnating. Yup, the other two bankrollers of Europe. Have you read about German fears over the eurozone economy? I reckon the whole thing will collapse myself.I wouldnt like to see that as so many would be effected but it does seem a bit like a pyramid selling scheme to me." Not really that, but it is based on stable economies being the basis of financial stability whilst some of the less disciplined economies take the piss based on the credit rating. A northern and southern Euro (roughly) would have made more sense, bit in the 90s when the decision was made there was money sloshing around everywhere. That's what happens when you make an irrevocable decision based on the mood at a specific point in time though... | |||
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" Lol, have you seen the state of the EU economies lately? Don't confuse unwilling and unable, you are simply not pleasant enough or interesting enough for me to want to discuss anything in any depth. if you are going to use that arguement then you need to use the figures.... GDP growth in the eurozone last year was rounded down from 2.0% to 1.7%.... GDP growth in the UK last year was rounded down from 1.5% to 1.2%..... in each of the next 4 years the prediction is that growth in the Eurozone will be higher than growth in the UK...... the problem is that leavers "belief" is based on hope..... unfortunately as an economist will tell you... "hope" is not a strategyIts quiet easy to lump all the figures together in the euro zone to get an average but does not project the real figures Poland and Romania are doing extremely well along with spain where as the larger economies like germany and france are stagnating. Yup, the other two bankrollers of Europe. Have you read about German fears over the eurozone economy? I reckon the whole thing will collapse myself." There is a global slow-down and a recession coming. Every economy should be concerned. It's not Eurozone specific. | |||
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" Lol, have you seen the state of the EU economies lately? Don't confuse unwilling and unable, you are simply not pleasant enough or interesting enough for me to want to discuss anything in any depth. if you are going to use that arguement then you need to use the figures.... GDP growth in the eurozone last year was rounded down from 2.0% to 1.7%.... GDP growth in the UK last year was rounded down from 1.5% to 1.2%..... in each of the next 4 years the prediction is that growth in the Eurozone will be higher than growth in the UK...... the problem is that leavers "belief" is based on hope..... unfortunately as an economist will tell you... "hope" is not a strategyIts quiet easy to lump all the figures together in the euro zone to get an average but does not project the real figures Poland and Romania are doing extremely well along with spain where as the larger economies like germany and france are stagnating. Yup, the other two bankrollers of Europe. Have you read about German fears over the eurozone economy? I reckon the whole thing will collapse myself.I wouldnt like to see that as so many would be effected but it does seem a bit like a pyramid selling scheme to me." I just hope we are out of transition by then, and free of their financial and ECJ control. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Lol, have you seen the state of the EU economies lately? Don't confuse unwilling and unable, you are simply not pleasant enough or interesting enough for me to want to discuss anything in any depth. if you are going to use that arguement then you need to use the figures.... GDP growth in the eurozone last year was rounded down from 2.0% to 1.7%.... GDP growth in the UK last year was rounded down from 1.5% to 1.2%..... in each of the next 4 years the prediction is that growth in the Eurozone will be higher than growth in the UK...... the problem is that leavers "belief" is based on hope..... unfortunately as an economist will tell you... "hope" is not a strategyIts quiet easy to lump all the figures together in the euro zone to get an average but does not project the real figures Poland and Romania are doing extremely well along with spain where as the larger economies like germany and france are stagnating. you friend "fisky" is the one who lumped "all the EU economies" together.... maybe you might like to have a chat with her about her assumption.... I was answering the generalisation she tried badly/falsely (delete whichever you believe) to put out there......" Shame, I had some respect for you based on what I had seen of some of your lounge forum contributions. My mistake - you're just another rude, spiteful contributor it seems, respect lost. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Lol, have you seen the state of the EU economies lately? Don't confuse unwilling and unable, you are simply not pleasant enough or interesting enough for me to want to discuss anything in any depth. if you are going to use that arguement then you need to use the figures.... GDP growth in the eurozone last year was rounded down from 2.0% to 1.7%.... GDP growth in the UK last year was rounded down from 1.5% to 1.2%..... in each of the next 4 years the prediction is that growth in the Eurozone will be higher than growth in the UK...... the problem is that leavers "belief" is based on hope..... unfortunately as an economist will tell you... "hope" is not a strategyIts quiet easy to lump all the figures together in the euro zone to get an average but does not project the real figures Poland and Romania are doing extremely well along with spain where as the larger economies like germany and france are stagnating. you friend "fisky" is the one who lumped "all the EU economies" together.... maybe you might like to have a chat with her about her assumption.... I was answering the generalisation she tried badly/falsely (delete whichever you believe) to put out there...... Shame, I had some respect for you based on what I had seen of some of your lounge forum contributions. My mistake - you're just another rude, spiteful contributor it seems, respect lost. " easiest way to counter "generalisations" is with fact...... easiest way to counter "fact" is with fact.... if you put neither out there and just want to throw stuff against a wall to see what sticks..... thats not on me! fact will get you and bite you each and every time..... you want a conversation to evolve... come out there with fact.... | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Lol, have you seen the state of the EU economies lately? Don't confuse unwilling and unable, you are simply not pleasant enough or interesting enough for me to want to discuss anything in any depth. if you are going to use that arguement then you need to use the figures.... GDP growth in the eurozone last year was rounded down from 2.0% to 1.7%.... GDP growth in the UK last year was rounded down from 1.5% to 1.2%..... in each of the next 4 years the prediction is that growth in the Eurozone will be higher than growth in the UK...... the problem is that leavers "belief" is based on hope..... unfortunately as an economist will tell you... "hope" is not a strategyIts quiet easy to lump all the figures together in the euro zone to get an average but does not project the real figures Poland and Romania are doing extremely well along with spain where as the larger economies like germany and france are stagnating. you friend "fisky" is the one who lumped "all the EU economies" together.... maybe you might like to have a chat with her about her assumption.... I was answering the generalisation she tried badly/falsely (delete whichever you believe) to put out there...... Shame, I had some respect for you based on what I had seen of some of your lounge forum contributions. My mistake - you're just another rude, spiteful contributor it seems, respect lost. easiest way to counter "generalisations" is with fact...... easiest way to counter "fact" is with fact.... if you put neither out there and just want to throw stuff against a wall to see what sticks..... thats not on me! fact will get you and bite you each and every time..... you want a conversation to evolve... come out there with fact.... "The fact is you misquoted me and falsely accused me and I corrected you by re-quoting my actual words, disproving your accusation, and asked you to apologise because I thought you were an honourable fellow, but you did not. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Lol, have you seen the state of the EU economies lately? Don't confuse unwilling and unable, you are simply not pleasant enough or interesting enough for me to want to discuss anything in any depth. if you are going to use that arguement then you need to use the figures.... GDP growth in the eurozone last year was rounded down from 2.0% to 1.7%.... GDP growth in the UK last year was rounded down from 1.5% to 1.2%..... in each of the next 4 years the prediction is that growth in the Eurozone will be higher than growth in the UK...... the problem is that leavers "belief" is based on hope..... unfortunately as an economist will tell you... "hope" is not a strategyIts quiet easy to lump all the figures together in the euro zone to get an average but does not project the real figures Poland and Romania are doing extremely well along with spain where as the larger economies like germany and france are stagnating. you friend "fisky" is the one who lumped "all the EU economies" together.... maybe you might like to have a chat with her about her assumption.... I was answering the generalisation she tried badly/falsely (delete whichever you believe) to put out there...... Shame, I had some respect for you based on what I had seen of some of your lounge forum contributions. My mistake - you're just another rude, spiteful contributor it seems, respect lost. easiest way to counter "generalisations" is with fact...... easiest way to counter "fact" is with fact.... if you put neither out there and just want to throw stuff against a wall to see what sticks..... thats not on me! fact will get you and bite you each and every time..... you want a conversation to evolve... come out there with fact....
The fact is you misquoted me and falsely accused me and I corrected you by re-quoting my actual words, disproving your accusation, and asked you to apologise because I thought you were an honourable fellow, but you did not.""Lol, have you seen the state of the EU economies lately?" Still nothing new to add then? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Lol, have you seen the state of the EU economies lately? Don't confuse unwilling and unable, you are simply not pleasant enough or interesting enough for me to want to discuss anything in any depth. if you are going to use that arguement then you need to use the figures.... GDP growth in the eurozone last year was rounded down from 2.0% to 1.7%.... GDP growth in the UK last year was rounded down from 1.5% to 1.2%..... in each of the next 4 years the prediction is that growth in the Eurozone will be higher than growth in the UK...... the problem is that leavers "belief" is based on hope..... unfortunately as an economist will tell you... "hope" is not a strategyIts quiet easy to lump all the figures together in the euro zone to get an average but does not project the real figures Poland and Romania are doing extremely well along with spain where as the larger economies like germany and france are stagnating. you friend "fisky" is the one who lumped "all the EU economies" together.... maybe you might like to have a chat with her about her assumption.... I was answering the generalisation she tried badly/falsely (delete whichever you believe) to put out there...... Shame, I had some respect for you based on what I had seen of some of your lounge forum contributions. My mistake - you're just another rude, spiteful contributor it seems, respect lost. easiest way to counter "generalisations" is with fact...... easiest way to counter "fact" is with fact.... if you put neither out there and just want to throw stuff against a wall to see what sticks..... thats not on me! fact will get you and bite you each and every time..... you want a conversation to evolve... come out there with fact....
The fact is you misquoted me and falsely accused me and I corrected you by re-quoting my actual words, disproving your accusation, and asked you to apologise because I thought you were an honourable fellow, but you did not.
"Lol, have you seen the state of the EU economies lately?"
"What's that got to do with the price of fish, I'm talking to Fabio about his false accusation. I asked him to apologise because that's what honourable people do. You are not, so no point commenting. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Lol, have you seen the state of the EU economies lately? Don't confuse unwilling and unable, you are simply not pleasant enough or interesting enough for me to want to discuss anything in any depth. if you are going to use that arguement then you need to use the figures.... GDP growth in the eurozone last year was rounded down from 2.0% to 1.7%.... GDP growth in the UK last year was rounded down from 1.5% to 1.2%..... in each of the next 4 years the prediction is that growth in the Eurozone will be higher than growth in the UK...... the problem is that leavers "belief" is based on hope..... unfortunately as an economist will tell you... "hope" is not a strategyIts quiet easy to lump all the figures together in the euro zone to get an average but does not project the real figures Poland and Romania are doing extremely well along with spain where as the larger economies like germany and france are stagnating. you friend "fisky" is the one who lumped "all the EU economies" together.... maybe you might like to have a chat with her about her assumption.... I was answering the generalisation she tried badly/falsely (delete whichever you believe) to put out there...... Shame, I had some respect for you based on what I had seen of some of your lounge forum contributions. My mistake - you're just another rude, spiteful contributor it seems, respect lost. easiest way to counter "generalisations" is with fact...... easiest way to counter "fact" is with fact.... if you put neither out there and just want to throw stuff against a wall to see what sticks..... thats not on me! fact will get you and bite you each and every time..... you want a conversation to evolve... come out there with fact....
The fact is you misquoted me and falsely accused me and I corrected you by re-quoting my actual words, disproving your accusation, and asked you to apologise because I thought you were an honourable fellow, but you did not.
"Lol, have you seen the state of the EU economies lately?"
What's that got to do with the price of fish, I'm talking to Fabio about his false accusation. I asked him to apologise because that's what honourable people do. You are not, so no point commenting."Do you not know what he "misquoted" you about?
Perhaps he was wealthier and owned a horse you'd just say "yea sir"? | |||
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"You know if I did another degree, in Politics, or Psychology maybe, I think I would do a thesis on the bitter hatred and envy of the liberal left. I sometimes worked for the aristocracy in my youth, riding their hunters, eventers and polo ponies mostly, and been around them all my life because of the horses. I have rarely found them anything but good-natured and charming to all, and benevolent and caring towards everyone they felt they had responsibility for. I certainly know which I would rather have looking after me, I don't trust anyone who shows hatred. Its an interesting point you raise about the good natured and benevolent attitude of the landed gentry. I used to work in photography and spent a lot of time in very wealthy peoples houses and its true that they are often all very nice but I think thats more because they can afford to be and live in an enclosed and different world to us commoners. There are mapped out paths for most of them, one of which is politics starting in the HoC and being elevated to the HoL once they achieve their peerage (there are of course exceptions to this such as Tony Benn who was a peer but chose to be a MoP) but they see it as a continuum of their way of life. No doubt that many are very well educated and bright but they live in a bubble and although in your past you may have been accepted into their general sphere I hope you recognise that you will never be anything more to them than a fan. If it is enough for you to be graced with their occasional friendship I guess thats all you need out of life but don’t forget that you are clinging to your own bubble of niceness.
I'm not clinging to anything, some were employees, some were friends, some were people I employed for my horses or went to for training. I am admired for my horsemanship, and in that they are simply my peers, along with people from all nations and all walks of life. I have no chip on my shoulder, and most of them do not - horses are a great leveller in that regard.
I've been playing working at festivals and noticed how some of, lets say, the proletariat, have a real problem with 'posh people'. The were envious, spiteful, and actually bore hatred towards them for no reason other than they were born with some privilege they did not have - whilst all the while claiming a self-righteous moral superiority! It was quite revolting, and the problem was firmly THEIRS.
Sure, the 'posh' may not understand them or know much of their life sometimes - but vice versa is true too. Plenty of truly good people are born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and never hated anyone, quite the converse - seek to spend their life serving. That's where I learned the term 'noblesse oblige'.
I'll trust honour and duty over spite and envy any day.
I agree with some of what you say here and I personally don't hate JRM, Johnson or even Corbyn, all of whom had privileged upbringings and went to private schools. I just think all three of them are completely wrong on many issues and so I oppose them on those issues. Like, dislike, love, hatred has nothing to do with it. I can't see into the heart of another person nor know their true motivation so I go by what they say and by how much I trust them to do what they say.
No-one can argue if you disagree with someones opinions, actions or stated principles.
But I hate it when I see people twisting their words or impugning their character or motivation because of THEIR OWN bigotry and bitterness. That's just plain ugly.
The irony
Oh quit with the sarcastic emoji all the time, it's purile, and just plain ill-mannered, grow up.
Hey again
Isn't Boris Johnson mad for a bit of bigotry and hate speech againsy Muslims specifically!
Also you mention that they're already rich, as if this put them beyond any form of criticism. But they're both openly into brexit for personal gain. Currency trading. And they both own, part own, families own, companies who don't pay tax, and are part of tax avoidance schemes, which the EU are about to clamp down on, meanwhile shorting the pound, hoping it will drop as low as possible.
None of this seems suspicious to you. Even when combined with the absolute catastrophic impact of a hard brexit to ordinary people in the UK. Not to mention the 600mil were already flushing down the brexit toilet every week.
Even then, you still like these two baffoons?
You need to fact check the whole EU tax avoidance thing. As set out it's not really a good enough motivator in my opinion.
TBH I think one of the reasons why the Remain argument has not got as much traction with voters as it could is because we're spending too much time questioning the motivation of Leavers to which most simply say to themselves "Well that's not my reason for voting Leave and, if they're wrong about that, why should I listen to anything else they say".
Maybe we'd do better if we simply argued that BREXIT is bad for Britain regardless what the motivation those supporting it have. I mean it's not like if Johnson was backing BREXIT for all the right reasons (what ever they may be) it would suddenly make BREXIT a good thing, is it?
Fair point. However brexit is bad for UK. There is zero doubt. But that doesn't seem to make a jot of difference to leavers.
The majority obviously have a different perspective. Ask a slave if he wants to stay in a comfortable house or take his freedom and strive for better, and which will they choose?
It isn't about money.
I would suggest you retract your wildly ignorant reference to "happy" slaves
Research the word oxymoron and the true vile nature of slavery
Or you could research the many definitions of the word slavery. Use prisoner if you prefer. Or captive.
The point was about the value of freedom to those who do not have it - it is priceless, when all you can see is the monetary risk."Freedom is priceless but that freedom must also include our right to be free to cooperate with others for our common good and to freely go and work in as many different and diverse places as possible. What extra freedoms that I don't already have will Leaving the EU give me? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" We have a say. More of a say than other countries in the EU. 'Having a say' is not independence. If you cannot understand the difference you will never understand why anyone voted to leave. Besides, we have no say whatsoever over the rulings of the ECJ who's law has an entirely different basis to our own, and majority voting will increasingly take over the illusion of free choice anyway." I think you may have been reading to much about the fake Lisbon Treaty. Will be saying we're all going to be conscripted in to a mythical EU army next. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" We have a say. More of a say than other countries in the EU. 'Having a say' is not independence. If you cannot understand the difference you will never understand why anyone voted to leave. Besides, we have no say whatsoever over the rulings of the ECJ who's law has an entirely different basis to our own, and majority voting will increasingly take over the illusion of free choice anyway. Independence to do what? You sign a trade deal and you surrender independence. You have a military crisis you go and find allies. What "independence" are you missing that affects your life or anyone elses? We have no "say" in the rulings of the Supreme Court or the WTO. Nor should we. That is the point of the law. It does not have "an entirely different basis". It's a treaty court. It adjudicates on those matters only as do similar courts and arbitration panels on any other treaty. Look it up. Any increase in majority voting has to be agreed by us. We did the last time too. Nothing was imposed. We are such victims but are suddenly going to become incredibly strong when we leave the EU
Not victims, we voluntarily given up our freedoms, or our scheming political elite did anyway. Now we are going to get them back.
You need to research the difference between EU and UK systems of law."Most, but not all, EU countries system of law is based on Roman Law while UK, Ireland, Cyprus and Malta (possible others too) systems of law are based on Common Law. But what's that got to do with the ECJ? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Lol, have you seen the state of the EU economies lately? Don't confuse unwilling and unable, you are simply not pleasant enough or interesting enough for me to want to discuss anything in any depth. if you are going to use that arguement then you need to use the figures.... GDP growth in the eurozone last year was rounded down from 2.0% to 1.7%.... GDP growth in the UK last year was rounded down from 1.5% to 1.2%..... in each of the next 4 years the prediction is that growth in the Eurozone will be higher than growth in the UK...... the problem is that leavers "belief" is based on hope..... unfortunately as an economist will tell you... "hope" is not a strategyIts quiet easy to lump all the figures together in the euro zone to get an average but does not project the real figures Poland and Romania are doing extremely well along with spain where as the larger economies like germany and france are stagnating. you friend "fisky" is the one who lumped "all the EU economies" together.... maybe you might like to have a chat with her about her assumption.... I was answering the generalisation she tried badly/falsely (delete whichever you believe) to put out there...... Shame, I had some respect for you based on what I had seen of some of your lounge forum contributions. My mistake - you're just another rude, spiteful contributor it seems, respect lost. easiest way to counter "generalisations" is with fact...... easiest way to counter "fact" is with fact.... if you put neither out there and just want to throw stuff against a wall to see what sticks..... thats not on me! fact will get you and bite you each and every time..... you want a conversation to evolve... come out there with fact....
The fact is you misquoted me and falsely accused me and I corrected you by re-quoting my actual words, disproving your accusation, and asked you to apologise because I thought you were an honourable fellow, but you did not.
"Lol, have you seen the state of the EU economies lately?"
What's that got to do with the price of fish, I'm talking to Fabio about his false accusation. I asked him to apologise because that's what honourable people do. You are not, so no point commenting."So please tell me frisky... what part of “look at the state of all the EU economies” did I misquote? Those were the words you used... I just supplied the facts | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Most, but not all, EU countries system of law is based on Roman Law while UK, Ireland, Cyprus and Malta (possible others too) systems of law are based on Common Law. But what's that got to do with the ECJ? " That may be true for England but is untrue when applied to the UK. The roots of Scots Law are very different from those of English law and that continues to this day. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Lol, have you seen the state of the EU economies lately? Don't confuse unwilling and unable, you are simply not pleasant enough or interesting enough for me to want to discuss anything in any depth. if you are going to use that arguement then you need to use the figures.... GDP growth in the eurozone last year was rounded down from 2.0% to 1.7%.... GDP growth in the UK last year was rounded down from 1.5% to 1.2%..... in each of the next 4 years the prediction is that growth in the Eurozone will be higher than growth in the UK...... the problem is that leavers "belief" is based on hope..... unfortunately as an economist will tell you... "hope" is not a strategyIts quiet easy to lump all the figures together in the euro zone to get an average but does not project the real figures Poland and Romania are doing extremely well along with spain where as the larger economies like germany and france are stagnating. you friend "fisky" is the one who lumped "all the EU economies" together.... maybe you might like to have a chat with her about her assumption.... I was answering the generalisation she tried badly/falsely (delete whichever you believe) to put out there...... Shame, I had some respect for you based on what I had seen of some of your lounge forum contributions. My mistake - you're just another rude, spiteful contributor it seems, respect lost. easiest way to counter "generalisations" is with fact...... easiest way to counter "fact" is with fact.... if you put neither out there and just want to throw stuff against a wall to see what sticks..... thats not on me! fact will get you and bite you each and every time..... you want a conversation to evolve... come out there with fact....
The fact is you misquoted me and falsely accused me and I corrected you by re-quoting my actual words, disproving your accusation, and asked you to apologise because I thought you were an honourable fellow, but you did not.
"Lol, have you seen the state of the EU economies lately?"
What's that got to do with the price of fish, I'm talking to Fabio about his false accusation. I asked him to apologise because that's what honourable people do. You are not, so no point commenting.
So please tell me frisky... what part of “look at the state of all the EU economies” did I misquote?
Those were the words you used... I just supplied the facts"It was a previous thread. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Most, but not all, EU countries system of law is based on Roman Law while UK, Ireland, Cyprus and Malta (possible others too) systems of law are based on Common Law. But what's that got to do with the ECJ? That may be true for England but is untrue when applied to the UK. The roots of Scots Law are very different from those of English law and that continues to this day. " Scottish law is also based on Common Law. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_law | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" We have a say. More of a say than other countries in the EU. 'Having a say' is not independence. If you cannot understand the difference you will never understand why anyone voted to leave. Besides, we have no say whatsoever over the rulings of the ECJ who's law has an entirely different basis to our own, and majority voting will increasingly take over the illusion of free choice anyway. I think you may have been reading to much about the fake Lisbon Treaty. Will be saying we're all going to be conscripted in to a mythical EU army next. " What do you think is mythical about it when closer intelligence and defence cooperation and integration is already happening and EU leaders like Der Leyen, Merkel, Macron, Verhoftwat and Junker are all pressing for a combined force under EU command? | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"You know if I did another degree, in Politics, or Psychology maybe, I think I would do a thesis on the bitter hatred and envy of the liberal left. I sometimes worked for the aristocracy in my youth, riding their hunters, eventers and polo ponies mostly, and been around them all my life because of the horses. I have rarely found them anything but good-natured and charming to all, and benevolent and caring towards everyone they felt they had responsibility for. I certainly know which I would rather have looking after me, I don't trust anyone who shows hatred. Its an interesting point you raise about the good natured and benevolent attitude of the landed gentry. I used to work in photography and spent a lot of time in very wealthy peoples houses and its true that they are often all very nice but I think thats more because they can afford to be and live in an enclosed and different world to us commoners. There are mapped out paths for most of them, one of which is politics starting in the HoC and being elevated to the HoL once they achieve their peerage (there are of course exceptions to this such as Tony Benn who was a peer but chose to be a MoP) but they see it as a continuum of their way of life. No doubt that many are very well educated and bright but they live in a bubble and although in your past you may have been accepted into their general sphere I hope you recognise that you will never be anything more to them than a fan. If it is enough for you to be graced with their occasional friendship I guess thats all you need out of life but don’t forget that you are clinging to your own bubble of niceness.
I'm not clinging to anything, some were employees, some were friends, some were people I employed for my horses or went to for training. I am admired for my horsemanship, and in that they are simply my peers, along with people from all nations and all walks of life. I have no chip on my shoulder, and most of them do not - horses are a great leveller in that regard.
I've been playing working at festivals and noticed how some of, lets say, the proletariat, have a real problem with 'posh people'. The were envious, spiteful, and actually bore hatred towards them for no reason other than they were born with some privilege they did not have - whilst all the while claiming a self-righteous moral superiority! It was quite revolting, and the problem was firmly THEIRS.
Sure, the 'posh' may not understand them or know much of their life sometimes - but vice versa is true too. Plenty of truly good people are born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and never hated anyone, quite the converse - seek to spend their life serving. That's where I learned the term 'noblesse oblige'.
I'll trust honour and duty over spite and envy any day.
I agree with some of what you say here and I personally don't hate JRM, Johnson or even Corbyn, all of whom had privileged upbringings and went to private schools. I just think all three of them are completely wrong on many issues and so I oppose them on those issues. Like, dislike, love, hatred has nothing to do with it. I can't see into the heart of another person nor know their true motivation so I go by what they say and by how much I trust them to do what they say.
No-one can argue if you disagree with someones opinions, actions or stated principles.
But I hate it when I see people twisting their words or impugning their character or motivation because of THEIR OWN bigotry and bitterness. That's just plain ugly.
The irony
Oh quit with the sarcastic emoji all the time, it's purile, and just plain ill-mannered, grow up.
Hey again
Isn't Boris Johnson mad for a bit of bigotry and hate speech againsy Muslims specifically!
Also you mention that they're already rich, as if this put them beyond any form of criticism. But they're both openly into brexit for personal gain. Currency trading. And they both own, part own, families own, companies who don't pay tax, and are part of tax avoidance schemes, which the EU are about to clamp down on, meanwhile shorting the pound, hoping it will drop as low as possible.
None of this seems suspicious to you. Even when combined with the absolute catastrophic impact of a hard brexit to ordinary people in the UK. Not to mention the 600mil were already flushing down the brexit toilet every week.
Even then, you still like these two baffoons?
You need to fact check the whole EU tax avoidance thing. As set out it's not really a good enough motivator in my opinion.
TBH I think one of the reasons why the Remain argument has not got as much traction with voters as it could is because we're spending too much time questioning the motivation of Leavers to which most simply say to themselves "Well that's not my reason for voting Leave and, if they're wrong about that, why should I listen to anything else they say".
Maybe we'd do better if we simply argued that BREXIT is bad for Britain regardless what the motivation those supporting it have. I mean it's not like if Johnson was backing BREXIT for all the right reasons (what ever they may be) it would suddenly make BREXIT a good thing, is it?
Fair point. However brexit is bad for UK. There is zero doubt. But that doesn't seem to make a jot of difference to leavers.
The majority obviously have a different perspective. Ask a slave if he wants to stay in a comfortable house or take his freedom and strive for better, and which will they choose?
It isn't about money.
I would suggest you retract your wildly ignorant reference to "happy" slaves
Research the word oxymoron and the true vile nature of slavery
Or you could research the many definitions of the word slavery. Use prisoner if you prefer. Or captive.
The point was about the value of freedom to those who do not have it - it is priceless, when all you can see is the monetary risk.
Freedom is priceless but that freedom must also include our right to be free to cooperate with others for our common good and to freely go and work in as many different and diverse places as possible.
"You'll only have to fill in a form or two like I did the first time I lived and worked and drove in Germany, it's really no big deal, people are being such drama queens about it! Cooperation in free choice is fine, coercive control is not. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" We have a say. More of a say than other countries in the EU. 'Having a say' is not independence. If you cannot understand the difference you will never understand why anyone voted to leave. Besides, we have no say whatsoever over the rulings of the ECJ who's law has an entirely different basis to our own, and majority voting will increasingly take over the illusion of free choice anyway. I think you may have been reading to much about the fake Lisbon Treaty. Will be saying we're all going to be conscripted in to a mythical EU army next. What do you think is mythical about it when closer intelligence and defence cooperation and integration is already happening and EU leaders like Der Leyen, Merkel, Macron, Verhoftwat and Junker are all pressing for a combined force under EU command?" What's wrong with closer intelligence and defence cooperation and integration? It improves information and efficiency. We have the Five Eyes and NATO. What's wrong with them? Anyone can have whatever view they want about an EU army. The only way that it happens is if we agree to it. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
" Lol, have you seen the state of the EU economies lately? Don't confuse unwilling and unable, you are simply not pleasant enough or interesting enough for me to want to discuss anything in any depth. if you are going to use that arguement then you need to use the figures.... GDP growth in the eurozone last year was rounded down from 2.0% to 1.7%.... GDP growth in the UK last year was rounded down from 1.5% to 1.2%..... in each of the next 4 years the prediction is that growth in the Eurozone will be higher than growth in the UK...... the problem is that leavers "belief" is based on hope..... unfortunately as an economist will tell you... "hope" is not a strategyIts quiet easy to lump all the figures together in the euro zone to get an average but does not project the real figures Poland and Romania are doing extremely well along with spain where as the larger economies like germany and france are stagnating. you friend "fisky" is the one who lumped "all the EU economies" together.... maybe you might like to have a chat with her about her assumption.... I was answering the generalisation she tried badly/falsely (delete whichever you believe) to put out there...... Shame, I had some respect for you based on what I had seen of some of your lounge forum contributions. My mistake - you're just another rude, spiteful contributor it seems, respect lost. easiest way to counter "generalisations" is with fact...... easiest way to counter "fact" is with fact.... if you put neither out there and just want to throw stuff against a wall to see what sticks..... thats not on me! fact will get you and bite you each and every time..... you want a conversation to evolve... come out there with fact....
The fact is you misquoted me and falsely accused me and I corrected you by re-quoting my actual words, disproving your accusation, and asked you to apologise because I thought you were an honourable fellow, but you did not.
"Lol, have you seen the state of the EU economies lately?"
What's that got to do with the price of fish, I'm talking to Fabio about his false accusation. I asked him to apologise because that's what honourable people do. You are not, so no point commenting.
So please tell me frisky... what part of “look at the state of all the EU economies” did I misquote?
Those were the words you used... I just supplied the facts
It was a previous thread. "
You are complaining about something completely unrelated and that nobody knows anything about.
| |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"You know if I did another degree, in Politics, or Psychology maybe, I think I would do a thesis on the bitter hatred and envy of the liberal left. I sometimes worked for the aristocracy in my youth, riding their hunters, eventers and polo ponies mostly, and been around them all my life because of the horses. I have rarely found them anything but good-natured and charming to all, and benevolent and caring towards everyone they felt they had responsibility for. I certainly know which I would rather have looking after me, I don't trust anyone who shows hatred. Its an interesting point you raise about the good natured and benevolent attitude of the landed gentry. I used to work in photography and spent a lot of time in very wealthy peoples houses and its true that they are often all very nice but I think thats more because they can afford to be and live in an enclosed and different world to us commoners. There are mapped out paths for most of them, one of which is politics starting in the HoC and being elevated to the HoL once they achieve their peerage (there are of course exceptions to this such as Tony Benn who was a peer but chose to be a MoP) but they see it as a continuum of their way of life. No doubt that many are very well educated and bright but they live in a bubble and although in your past you may have been accepted into their general sphere I hope you recognise that you will never be anything more to them than a fan. If it is enough for you to be graced with their occasional friendship I guess thats all you need out of life but don’t forget that you are clinging to your own bubble of niceness.
I'm not clinging to anything, some were employees, some were friends, some were people I employed for my horses or went to for training. I am admired for my horsemanship, and in that they are simply my peers, along with people from all nations and all walks of life. I have no chip on my shoulder, and most of them do not - horses are a great leveller in that regard.
I've been playing working at festivals and noticed how some of, lets say, the proletariat, have a real problem with 'posh people'. The were envious, spiteful, and actually bore hatred towards them for no reason other than they were born with some privilege they did not have - whilst all the while claiming a self-righteous moral superiority! It was quite revolting, and the problem was firmly THEIRS.
Sure, the 'posh' may not understand them or know much of their life sometimes - but vice versa is true too. Plenty of truly good people are born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and never hated anyone, quite the converse - seek to spend their life serving. That's where I learned the term 'noblesse oblige'.
I'll trust honour and duty over spite and envy any day.
I agree with some of what you say here and I personally don't hate JRM, Johnson or even Corbyn, all of whom had privileged upbringings and went to private schools. I just think all three of them are completely wrong on many issues and so I oppose them on those issues. Like, dislike, love, hatred has nothing to do with it. I can't see into the heart of another person nor know their true motivation so I go by what they say and by how much I trust them to do what they say.
No-one can argue if you disagree with someones opinions, actions or stated principles.
But I hate it when I see people twisting their words or impugning their character or motivation because of THEIR OWN bigotry and bitterness. That's just plain ugly.
The irony
Oh quit with the sarcastic emoji all the time, it's purile, and just plain ill-mannered, grow up.
Hey again
Isn't Boris Johnson mad for a bit of bigotry and hate speech againsy Muslims specifically!
Also you mention that they're already rich, as if this put them beyond any form of criticism. But they're both openly into brexit for personal gain. Currency trading. And they both own, part own, families own, companies who don't pay tax, and are part of tax avoidance schemes, which the EU are about to clamp down on, meanwhile shorting the pound, hoping it will drop as low as possible.
None of this seems suspicious to you. Even when combined with the absolute catastrophic impact of a hard brexit to ordinary people in the UK. Not to mention the 600mil were already flushing down the brexit toilet every week.
Even then, you still like these two baffoons?
You need to fact check the whole EU tax avoidance thing. As set out it's not really a good enough motivator in my opinion.
TBH I think one of the reasons why the Remain argument has not got as much traction with voters as it could is because we're spending too much time questioning the motivation of Leavers to which most simply say to themselves "Well that's not my reason for voting Leave and, if they're wrong about that, why should I listen to anything else they say".
Maybe we'd do better if we simply argued that BREXIT is bad for Britain regardless what the motivation those supporting it have. I mean it's not like if Johnson was backing BREXIT for all the right reasons (what ever they may be) it would suddenly make BREXIT a good thing, is it?
Fair point. However brexit is bad for UK. There is zero doubt. But that doesn't seem to make a jot of difference to leavers.
The majority obviously have a different perspective. Ask a slave if he wants to stay in a comfortable house or take his freedom and strive for better, and which will they choose?
It isn't about money.
I would suggest you retract your wildly ignorant reference to "happy" slaves
Research the word oxymoron and the true vile nature of slavery
Or you could research the many definitions of the word slavery. Use prisoner if you prefer. Or captive.
The point was about the value of freedom to those who do not have it - it is priceless, when all you can see is the monetary risk.
Freedom is priceless but that freedom must also include our right to be free to cooperate with others for our common good and to freely go and work in as many different and diverse places as possible.
You'll only have to fill in a form or two like I did the first time I lived and worked and drove in Germany, it's really no big deal, people are being such drama queens about it! Cooperation in free choice is fine, coercive control is not. "How are you so far detached from reality? I've lived and worked in EU countries for years. It's really sad that young people are losing the freedom to live and work in Europe. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"You know if I did another degree, in Politics, or Psychology maybe, I think I would do a thesis on the bitter hatred and envy of the liberal left. I sometimes worked for the aristocracy in my youth, riding their hunters, eventers and polo ponies mostly, and been around them all my life because of the horses. I have rarely found them anything but good-natured and charming to all, and benevolent and caring towards everyone they felt they had responsibility for. I certainly know which I would rather have looking after me, I don't trust anyone who shows hatred. Its an interesting point you raise about the good natured and benevolent attitude of the landed gentry. I used to work in photography and spent a lot of time in very wealthy peoples houses and its true that they are often all very nice but I think thats more because they can afford to be and live in an enclosed and different world to us commoners. There are mapped out paths for most of them, one of which is politics starting in the HoC and being elevated to the HoL once they achieve their peerage (there are of course exceptions to this such as Tony Benn who was a peer but chose to be a MoP) but they see it as a continuum of their way of life. No doubt that many are very well educated and bright but they live in a bubble and although in your past you may have been accepted into their general sphere I hope you recognise that you will never be anything more to them than a fan. If it is enough for you to be graced with their occasional friendship I guess thats all you need out of life but don’t forget that you are clinging to your own bubble of niceness.
I'm not clinging to anything, some were employees, some were friends, some were people I employed for my horses or went to for training. I am admired for my horsemanship, and in that they are simply my peers, along with people from all nations and all walks of life. I have no chip on my shoulder, and most of them do not - horses are a great leveller in that regard.
I've been playing working at festivals and noticed how some of, lets say, the proletariat, have a real problem with 'posh people'. The were envious, spiteful, and actually bore hatred towards them for no reason other than they were born with some privilege they did not have - whilst all the while claiming a self-righteous moral superiority! It was quite revolting, and the problem was firmly THEIRS.
Sure, the 'posh' may not understand them or know much of their life sometimes - but vice versa is true too. Plenty of truly good people are born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and never hated anyone, quite the converse - seek to spend their life serving. That's where I learned the term 'noblesse oblige'.
I'll trust honour and duty over spite and envy any day.
I agree with some of what you say here and I personally don't hate JRM, Johnson or even Corbyn, all of whom had privileged upbringings and went to private schools. I just think all three of them are completely wrong on many issues and so I oppose them on those issues. Like, dislike, love, hatred has nothing to do with it. I can't see into the heart of another person nor know their true motivation so I go by what they say and by how much I trust them to do what they say.
No-one can argue if you disagree with someones opinions, actions or stated principles.
But I hate it when I see people twisting their words or impugning their character or motivation because of THEIR OWN bigotry and bitterness. That's just plain ugly.
The irony
Oh quit with the sarcastic emoji all the time, it's purile, and just plain ill-mannered, grow up.
Hey again
Isn't Boris Johnson mad for a bit of bigotry and hate speech againsy Muslims specifically!
Also you mention that they're already rich, as if this put them beyond any form of criticism. But they're both openly into brexit for personal gain. Currency trading. And they both own, part own, families own, companies who don't pay tax, and are part of tax avoidance schemes, which the EU are about to clamp down on, meanwhile shorting the pound, hoping it will drop as low as possible.
None of this seems suspicious to you. Even when combined with the absolute catastrophic impact of a hard brexit to ordinary people in the UK. Not to mention the 600mil were already flushing down the brexit toilet every week.
Even then, you still like these two baffoons?
You need to fact check the whole EU tax avoidance thing. As set out it's not really a good enough motivator in my opinion.
TBH I think one of the reasons why the Remain argument has not got as much traction with voters as it could is because we're spending too much time questioning the motivation of Leavers to which most simply say to themselves "Well that's not my reason for voting Leave and, if they're wrong about that, why should I listen to anything else they say".
Maybe we'd do better if we simply argued that BREXIT is bad for Britain regardless what the motivation those supporting it have. I mean it's not like if Johnson was backing BREXIT for all the right reasons (what ever they may be) it would suddenly make BREXIT a good thing, is it?
Fair point. However brexit is bad for UK. There is zero doubt. But that doesn't seem to make a jot of difference to leavers.
The majority obviously have a different perspective. Ask a slave if he wants to stay in a comfortable house or take his freedom and strive for better, and which will they choose?
It isn't about money.
I would suggest you retract your wildly ignorant reference to "happy" slaves
Research the word oxymoron and the true vile nature of slavery
Or you could research the many definitions of the word slavery. Use prisoner if you prefer. Or captive.
The point was about the value of freedom to those who do not have it - it is priceless, when all you can see is the monetary risk.
Freedom is priceless but that freedom must also include our right to be free to cooperate with others for our common good and to freely go and work in as many different and diverse places as possible.
You'll only have to fill in a form or two like I did the first time I lived and worked and drove in Germany, it's really no big deal, people are being such drama queens about it! Cooperation in free choice is fine, coercive control is not.
How are you so far detached from reality?
I've lived and worked in EU countries for years. It's really sad that young people are losing the freedom to live and work in Europe."Freedom from coercive control is more important. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"You know if I did another degree, in Politics, or Psychology maybe, I think I would do a thesis on the bitter hatred and envy of the liberal left. I sometimes worked for the aristocracy in my youth, riding their hunters, eventers and polo ponies mostly, and been around them all my life because of the horses. I have rarely found them anything but good-natured and charming to all, and benevolent and caring towards everyone they felt they had responsibility for. I certainly know which I would rather have looking after me, I don't trust anyone who shows hatred. Its an interesting point you raise about the good natured and benevolent attitude of the landed gentry. I used to work in photography and spent a lot of time in very wealthy peoples houses and its true that they are often all very nice but I think thats more because they can afford to be and live in an enclosed and different world to us commoners. There are mapped out paths for most of them, one of which is politics starting in the HoC and being elevated to the HoL once they achieve their peerage (there are of course exceptions to this such as Tony Benn who was a peer but chose to be a MoP) but they see it as a continuum of their way of life. No doubt that many are very well educated and bright but they live in a bubble and although in your past you may have been accepted into their general sphere I hope you recognise that you will never be anything more to them than a fan. If it is enough for you to be graced with their occasional friendship I guess thats all you need out of life but don’t forget that you are clinging to your own bubble of niceness.
I'm not clinging to anything, some were employees, some were friends, some were people I employed for my horses or went to for training. I am admired for my horsemanship, and in that they are simply my peers, along with people from all nations and all walks of life. I have no chip on my shoulder, and most of them do not - horses are a great leveller in that regard.
I've been playing working at festivals and noticed how some of, lets say, the proletariat, have a real problem with 'posh people'. The were envious, spiteful, and actually bore hatred towards them for no reason other than they were born with some privilege they did not have - whilst all the while claiming a self-righteous moral superiority! It was quite revolting, and the problem was firmly THEIRS.
Sure, the 'posh' may not understand them or know much of their life sometimes - but vice versa is true too. Plenty of truly good people are born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and never hated anyone, quite the converse - seek to spend their life serving. That's where I learned the term 'noblesse oblige'.
I'll trust honour and duty over spite and envy any day.
I agree with some of what you say here and I personally don't hate JRM, Johnson or even Corbyn, all of whom had privileged upbringings and went to private schools. I just think all three of them are completely wrong on many issues and so I oppose them on those issues. Like, dislike, love, hatred has nothing to do with it. I can't see into the heart of another person nor know their true motivation so I go by what they say and by how much I trust them to do what they say.
No-one can argue if you disagree with someones opinions, actions or stated principles.
But I hate it when I see people twisting their words or impugning their character or motivation because of THEIR OWN bigotry and bitterness. That's just plain ugly.
The irony
Oh quit with the sarcastic emoji all the time, it's purile, and just plain ill-mannered, grow up.
Hey again
Isn't Boris Johnson mad for a bit of bigotry and hate speech againsy Muslims specifically!
Also you mention that they're already rich, as if this put them beyond any form of criticism. But they're both openly into brexit for personal gain. Currency trading. And they both own, part own, families own, companies who don't pay tax, and are part of tax avoidance schemes, which the EU are about to clamp down on, meanwhile shorting the pound, hoping it will drop as low as possible.
None of this seems suspicious to you. Even when combined with the absolute catastrophic impact of a hard brexit to ordinary people in the UK. Not to mention the 600mil were already flushing down the brexit toilet every week.
Even then, you still like these two baffoons?
You need to fact check the whole EU tax avoidance thing. As set out it's not really a good enough motivator in my opinion.
TBH I think one of the reasons why the Remain argument has not got as much traction with voters as it could is because we're spending too much time questioning the motivation of Leavers to which most simply say to themselves "Well that's not my reason for voting Leave and, if they're wrong about that, why should I listen to anything else they say".
Maybe we'd do better if we simply argued that BREXIT is bad for Britain regardless what the motivation those supporting it have. I mean it's not like if Johnson was backing BREXIT for all the right reasons (what ever they may be) it would suddenly make BREXIT a good thing, is it?
Fair point. However brexit is bad for UK. There is zero doubt. But that doesn't seem to make a jot of difference to leavers.
The majority obviously have a different perspective. Ask a slave if he wants to stay in a comfortable house or take his freedom and strive for better, and which will they choose?
It isn't about money.
I would suggest you retract your wildly ignorant reference to "happy" slaves
Research the word oxymoron and the true vile nature of slavery
Or you could research the many definitions of the word slavery. Use prisoner if you prefer. Or captive.
The point was about the value of freedom to those who do not have it - it is priceless, when all you can see is the monetary risk.
Freedom is priceless but that freedom must also include our right to be free to cooperate with others for our common good and to freely go and work in as many different and diverse places as possible.
You'll only have to fill in a form or two like I did the first time I lived and worked and drove in Germany, it's really no big deal, people are being such drama queens about it! Cooperation in free choice is fine, coercive control is not.
How are you so far detached from reality?
I've lived and worked in EU countries for years. It's really sad that young people are losing the freedom to live and work in Europe.
Freedom from coercive control is more important. "What control is imposed on the UK against its will? What laws don't you like? | |||
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"The origins of Scots Law are to be found in Roman Law. It is not a recent phenomenon that Scots look to Europe rather than England for inspiration in their development. " The origins of most Law in Europe and the Middle East come from Roman laws but the system of law in both England and Scotland is based on Common Law brought here mostly by the Saxons and unlike most of the rest of Europe which is based on the codified Roman Law. As Roman Law was not actually codified fully until 534, about 100 years after Britannia (now England) left, and Caledonia (now Scotland) was never part of the Roman Empire, it seems odd that you would think that the Scottish Law system is based on the Roman system and not its own. | |||
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" We have a say. More of a say than other countries in the EU. 'Having a say' is not independence. If you cannot understand the difference you will never understand why anyone voted to leave. Besides, we have no say whatsoever over the rulings of the ECJ who's law has an entirely different basis to our own, and majority voting will increasingly take over the illusion of free choice anyway. I think you may have been reading to much about the fake Lisbon Treaty. Will be saying we're all going to be conscripted in to a mythical EU army next. What do you think is mythical about it when closer intelligence and defence cooperation and integration is already happening and EU leaders like Der Leyen, Merkel, Macron, Verhoftwat and Junker are all pressing for a combined force under EU command?" Closer intelligence and defence cooperation and integration has been happening in (western) Europe since we joined NATO. That's a good thing. And I'm sure you're right that there are some people in Europe, indeed even some people in Britain and even in the US, who believe that Europe should coordinate it's armies even more closely for their mutual defence. That's not the same thing as having an EU Army. https://fullfact.org/online/EU-army-conscription/ Just because you researched it and read something about it on BrexitCentral or some other 'EU super state' conspiracy site doesn't mean it's going to happen or even that it's based on truth at all. | |||
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"You know if I did another degree, in Politics, or Psychology maybe, I think I would do a thesis on the bitter hatred and envy of the liberal left. I sometimes worked for the aristocracy in my youth, riding their hunters, eventers and polo ponies mostly, and been around them all my life because of the horses. I have rarely found them anything but good-natured and charming to all, and benevolent and caring towards everyone they felt they had responsibility for. I certainly know which I would rather have looking after me, I don't trust anyone who shows hatred. Its an interesting point you raise about the good natured and benevolent attitude of the landed gentry. I used to work in photography and spent a lot of time in very wealthy peoples houses and its true that they are often all very nice but I think thats more because they can afford to be and live in an enclosed and different world to us commoners. There are mapped out paths for most of them, one of which is politics starting in the HoC and being elevated to the HoL once they achieve their peerage (there are of course exceptions to this such as Tony Benn who was a peer but chose to be a MoP) but they see it as a continuum of their way of life. No doubt that many are very well educated and bright but they live in a bubble and although in your past you may have been accepted into their general sphere I hope you recognise that you will never be anything more to them than a fan. If it is enough for you to be graced with their occasional friendship I guess thats all you need out of life but don’t forget that you are clinging to your own bubble of niceness.
I'm not clinging to anything, some were employees, some were friends, some were people I employed for my horses or went to for training. I am admired for my horsemanship, and in that they are simply my peers, along with people from all nations and all walks of life. I have no chip on my shoulder, and most of them do not - horses are a great leveller in that regard.
I've been playing working at festivals and noticed how some of, lets say, the proletariat, have a real problem with 'posh people'. The were envious, spiteful, and actually bore hatred towards them for no reason other than they were born with some privilege they did not have - whilst all the while claiming a self-righteous moral superiority! It was quite revolting, and the problem was firmly THEIRS.
Sure, the 'posh' may not understand them or know much of their life sometimes - but vice versa is true too. Plenty of truly good people are born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and never hated anyone, quite the converse - seek to spend their life serving. That's where I learned the term 'noblesse oblige'.
I'll trust honour and duty over spite and envy any day.
I agree with some of what you say here and I personally don't hate JRM, Johnson or even Corbyn, all of whom had privileged upbringings and went to private schools. I just think all three of them are completely wrong on many issues and so I oppose them on those issues. Like, dislike, love, hatred has nothing to do with it. I can't see into the heart of another person nor know their true motivation so I go by what they say and by how much I trust them to do what they say.
No-one can argue if you disagree with someones opinions, actions or stated principles.
But I hate it when I see people twisting their words or impugning their character or motivation because of THEIR OWN bigotry and bitterness. That's just plain ugly.
The irony
Oh quit with the sarcastic emoji all the time, it's purile, and just plain ill-mannered, grow up.
Hey again
Isn't Boris Johnson mad for a bit of bigotry and hate speech againsy Muslims specifically!
Also you mention that they're already rich, as if this put them beyond any form of criticism. But they're both openly into brexit for personal gain. Currency trading. And they both own, part own, families own, companies who don't pay tax, and are part of tax avoidance schemes, which the EU are about to clamp down on, meanwhile shorting the pound, hoping it will drop as low as possible.
None of this seems suspicious to you. Even when combined with the absolute catastrophic impact of a hard brexit to ordinary people in the UK. Not to mention the 600mil were already flushing down the brexit toilet every week.
Even then, you still like these two baffoons?
You need to fact check the whole EU tax avoidance thing. As set out it's not really a good enough motivator in my opinion.
TBH I think one of the reasons why the Remain argument has not got as much traction with voters as it could is because we're spending too much time questioning the motivation of Leavers to which most simply say to themselves "Well that's not my reason for voting Leave and, if they're wrong about that, why should I listen to anything else they say".
Maybe we'd do better if we simply argued that BREXIT is bad for Britain regardless what the motivation those supporting it have. I mean it's not like if Johnson was backing BREXIT for all the right reasons (what ever they may be) it would suddenly make BREXIT a good thing, is it?
Fair point. However brexit is bad for UK. There is zero doubt. But that doesn't seem to make a jot of difference to leavers.
The majority obviously have a different perspective. Ask a slave if he wants to stay in a comfortable house or take his freedom and strive for better, and which will they choose?
It isn't about money.
I would suggest you retract your wildly ignorant reference to "happy" slaves
Research the word oxymoron and the true vile nature of slavery
Or you could research the many definitions of the word slavery. Use prisoner if you prefer. Or captive.
The point was about the value of freedom to those who do not have it - it is priceless, when all you can see is the monetary risk.
Freedom is priceless but that freedom must also include our right to be free to cooperate with others for our common good and to freely go and work in as many different and diverse places as possible.
You'll only have to fill in a form or two like I did the first time I lived and worked and drove in Germany, it's really no big deal, people are being such drama queens about it! Cooperation in free choice is fine, coercive control is not. "It's a bigger deal than having to do nothing at all apart from just going there. And it's a bigger deal than just one or two forms if my UK insurances for everything from health, driving and public liabilities are no longer valid. | |||
(closed, thread got too big) | |||
| Reply privately |
"You know if I did another degree, in Politics, or Psychology maybe, I think I would do a thesis on the bitter hatred and envy of the liberal left. I sometimes worked for the aristocracy in my youth, riding their hunters, eventers and polo ponies mostly, and been around them all my life because of the horses. I have rarely found them anything but good-natured and charming to all, and benevolent and caring towards everyone they felt they had responsibility for. I certainly know which I would rather have looking after me, I don't trust anyone who shows hatred. Its an interesting point you raise about the good natured and benevolent attitude of the landed gentry. I used to work in photography and spent a lot of time in very wealthy peoples houses and its true that they are often all very nice but I think thats more because they can afford to be and live in an enclosed and different world to us commoners. There are mapped out paths for most of them, one of which is politics starting in the HoC and being elevated to the HoL once they achieve their peerage (there are of course exceptions to this such as Tony Benn who was a peer but chose to be a MoP) but they see it as a continuum of their way of life. No doubt that many are very well educated and bright but they live in a bubble and although in your past you may have been accepted into their general sphere I hope you recognise that you will never be anything more to them than a fan. If it is enough for you to be graced with their occasional friendship I guess thats all you need out of life but don’t forget that you are clinging to your own bubble of niceness.
I'm not clinging to anything, some were employees, some were friends, some were people I employed for my horses or went to for training. I am admired for my horsemanship, and in that they are simply my peers, along with people from all nations and all walks of life. I have no chip on my shoulder, and most of them do not - horses are a great leveller in that regard.
I've been playing working at festivals and noticed how some of, lets say, the proletariat, have a real problem with 'posh people'. The were envious, spiteful, and actually bore hatred towards them for no reason other than they were born with some privilege they did not have - whilst all the while claiming a self-righteous moral superiority! It was quite revolting, and the problem was firmly THEIRS.
Sure, the 'posh' may not understand them or know much of their life sometimes - but vice versa is true too. Plenty of truly good people are born with a silver spoon in their mouths, and never hated anyone, quite the converse - seek to spend their life serving. That's where I learned the term 'noblesse oblige'.
I'll trust honour and duty over spite and envy any day.
I agree with some of what you say here and I personally don't hate JRM, Johnson or even Corbyn, all of whom had privileged upbringings and went to private schools. I just think all three of them are completely wrong on many issues and so I oppose them on those issues. Like, dislike, love, hatred has nothing to do with it. I can't see into the heart of another person nor know their true motivation so I go by what they say and by how much I trust them to do what they say.
No-one can argue if you disagree with someones opinions, actions or stated principles.
But I hate it when I see people twisting their words or impugning their character or motivation because of THEIR OWN bigotry and bitterness. That's just plain ugly.
The irony
Oh quit with the sarcastic emoji all the time, it's purile, and just plain ill-mannered, grow up.
Hey again
Isn't Boris Johnson mad for a bit of bigotry and hate speech againsy Muslims specifically!
Also you mention that they're already rich, as if this put them beyond any form of criticism. But they're both openly into brexit for personal gain. Currency trading. And they both own, part own, families own, companies who don't pay tax, and are part of tax avoidance schemes, which the EU are about to clamp down on, meanwhile shorting the pound, hoping it will drop as low as possible.
None of this seems suspicious to you. Even when combined with the absolute catastrophic impact of a hard brexit to ordinary people in the UK. Not to mention the 600mil were already flushing down the brexit toilet every week.
Even then, you still like these two baffoons?
You need to fact check the whole EU tax avoidance thing. As set out it's not really a good enough motivator in my opinion.
TBH I think one of the reasons why the Remain argument has not got as much traction with voters as it could is because we're spending too much time questioning the motivation of Leavers to which most simply say to themselves "Well that's not my reason for voting Leave and, if they're wrong about that, why should I listen to anything else they say".
Maybe we'd do better if we simply argued that BREXIT is bad for Britain regardless what the motivation those supporting it have. I mean it's not like if Johnson was backing BREXIT for all the right reasons (what ever they may be) it would suddenly make BREXIT a good thing, is it?
Fair point. However brexit is bad for UK. There is zero doubt. But that doesn't seem to make a jot of difference to leavers.
The majority obviously have a different perspective. Ask a slave if he wants to stay in a comfortable house or take his freedom and strive for better, and which will they choose?
It isn't about money.
I would suggest you retract your wildly ignorant reference to "happy" slaves
Research the word oxymoron and the true vile nature of slavery
Or you could research the many definitions of the word slavery. Use prisoner if you prefer. Or captive.
The point was about the value of freedom to those who do not have it - it is priceless, when all you can see is the monetary risk.
Freedom is priceless but that freedom must also include our right to be free to cooperate with others for our common good and to freely go and work in as many different and diverse places as possible.
You'll only have to fill in a form or two like I did the first time I lived and worked and drove in Germany, it's really no big deal, people are being such drama queens about it! Cooperation in free choice is fine, coercive control is not.
How are you so far detached from reality?
I've lived and worked in EU countries for years. It's really sad that young people are losing the freedom to live and work in Europe.
Freedom from coercive control is more important. "As already pointed out. You can't specify a single UK law that came from an EU regulation that you don't like. UK votes for nearly all of them. Environmental protection Workers rights Safety standards Food standards Menus outside restaurants There's millions of positive laws in the UK that originated in the EU. Besides all that. A vote to leave the EU is a vote to specifically lose freedoms. To allow the Tories to remove all our protections so that big business can be more profitable at our expense, at the environments expense. You seem like a sweet person. But you're view on brexit is just bonkers and has no relation to reality. | |||
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" We have a say. More of a say than other countries in the EU. 'Having a say' is not independence. If you cannot understand the difference you will never understand why anyone voted to leave. Besides, we have no say whatsoever over the rulings of the ECJ who's law has an entirely different basis to our own, and majority voting will increasingly take over the illusion of free choice anyway. I think you may have been reading to much about the fake Lisbon Treaty. Will be saying we're all going to be conscripted in to a mythical EU army next. What do you think is mythical about it when closer intelligence and defence cooperation and integration is already happening and EU leaders like Der Leyen, Merkel, Macron, Verhoftwat and Junker are all pressing for a combined force under EU command? Closer intelligence and defence cooperation and integration has been happening in (western) Europe since we joined NATO. That's a good thing. And I'm sure you're right that there are some people in Europe, indeed even some people in Britain and even in the US, who believe that Europe should coordinate it's armies even more closely for their mutual defence. That's not the same thing as having an EU Army. https://fullfact.org/online/EU-army-conscription/ Just because you researched it and read something about it on BrexitCentral or some other 'EU super state' conspiracy site doesn't mean it's going to happen or even that it's based on truth at all. " On the contrary, you can hear it directly out of the mouths of Der Leyen, Merkel, Macron, Verhoftwat and Junker, they express their intentions quite clearly. I studied some of the EU treaties on PESCO, CSDP etc when several high ranking military personal raised alarm about the amount of integration May signed up to SINCE the referendum. I suggest you stop reading the Guardian and simplistic websites and actually go and look at the original documents, they make for some very uncomfortable reading. | |||
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" Just because you researched it and read something about it on BrexitCentral or some other 'EU super state' conspiracy site doesn't mean it's going to happen or even that it's based on truth at all. " And quit the patronising attitude please, or I will simply not answer - life is too short to bother discussing anything with strangers on a sex site who cannot be bothered to be civil, it's unpleasant. | |||
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" Just because you researched it and read something about it on BrexitCentral or some other 'EU super state' conspiracy site doesn't mean it's going to happen or even that it's based on truth at all. And quit the patronising attitude please, or I will simply not answer - life is too short to bother discussing anything with strangers on a sex site who cannot be bothered to be civil, it's unpleasant." I'm not patronising you but I did think your research might be limited, I may be wrong about that but, having researched myself and also read many of the documents you mention, I simply don't see how you can have come to the conclusions you have. That's just called disagreeing, not patronising. In my research I've only seen the conclusions you've reached on 'EU super state conspiracy' sites and similar. If you've found those conclusions else where I'd really like to know where and if you've come to those conclusions on your own interpretation of the source documents then I'd like to know which parta of those documents led you to those conclusions so I can review them myself in case I missed something. Just to be clear, I'm definitely not trying to patronise you but I am most definitely disagreeing with you. | |||
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" Just because you researched it and read something about it on BrexitCentral or some other 'EU super state' conspiracy site doesn't mean it's going to happen or even that it's based on truth at all. And quit the patronising attitude please, or I will simply not answer - life is too short to bother discussing anything with strangers on a sex site who cannot be bothered to be civil, it's unpleasant. I'm not patronising you but I did think your research might be limited, I may be wrong about that but, having researched myself and also read many of the documents you mention, I simply don't see how you can have come to the conclusions you have. That's just called disagreeing, not patronising. In my research I've only seen the conclusions you've reached on 'EU super state conspiracy' sites and similar. If you've found those conclusions else where I'd really like to know where and if you've come to those conclusions on your own interpretation of the source documents then I'd like to know which parta of those documents led you to those conclusions so I can review them myself in case I missed something. Just to be clear, I'm definitely not trying to patronise you but I am most definitely disagreeing with you. " You sounded patronising. | |||
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" We have a say. More of a say than other countries in the EU. 'Having a say' is not independence. If you cannot understand the difference you will never understand why anyone voted to leave. Besides, we have no say whatsoever over the rulings of the ECJ who's law has an entirely different basis to our own, and majority voting will increasingly take over the illusion of free choice anyway. I think you may have been reading to much about the fake Lisbon Treaty. Will be saying we're all going to be conscripted in to a mythical EU army next. What do you think is mythical about it when closer intelligence and defence cooperation and integration is already happening and EU leaders like Der Leyen, Merkel, Macron, Verhoftwat and Junker are all pressing for a combined force under EU command?" It's mythical to think the UK would be conscripted into an EU Army without its full consent to do so. | |||
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" In my research I've only seen the conclusions you've reached on 'EU super state conspiracy' sites and similar. Just to be clear, I'm definitely not trying to patronise you but I am most definitely disagreeing with you. " Fuck off - you honestly think that first paragraph is not patronising? I have never read a conspiracy website in my life, but I have HEARD all the EU leaders mentioned directly say, time and time again 'We need an EU army' 'We want an EU army' 'We must have an EU army' 'We are working towards an EU army. What is it about that that you cannot accept? Than means an EU army is NOT a myth, it is a very real possibility and a stated aim, and the UK should be VERY wary of committing itself to anything that may end up down the line hard to get out of, because lets face it - on current performance, we can see that the EU loves to entrap and ensnare. | |||
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" Just because you researched it and read something about it on BrexitCentral or some other 'EU super state' conspiracy site doesn't mean it's going to happen or even that it's based on truth at all. And quit the patronising attitude please, or I will simply not answer - life is too short to bother discussing anything with strangers on a sex site who cannot be bothered to be civil, it's unpleasant. I'm not patronising you but I did think your research might be limited, I may be wrong about that but, having researched myself and also read many of the documents you mention, I simply don't see how you can have come to the conclusions you have. That's just called disagreeing, not patronising. In my research I've only seen the conclusions you've reached on 'EU super state conspiracy' sites and similar. If you've found those conclusions else where I'd really like to know where and if you've come to those conclusions on your own interpretation of the source documents then I'd like to know which parta of those documents led you to those conclusions so I can review them myself in case I missed something. Just to be clear, I'm definitely not trying to patronise you but I am most definitely disagreeing with you. You sounded patronising. " It may have sounded patronising, sometimes when you don't agree with someone it can sometimes sound patronising, but it definitely wasn't intended to be. | |||
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" As already pointed out. You can't specify a single UK law that came from an EU regulation that you don't like." On the contrary, I listed a whole load of laws, restrictions and regulations on earlier threads - everything from veterinary medicine restrictions to paying rich farmers like Heseltine 90k to grow nothing ...endless pointless crap IMO. I don't enjoy endlessly repeating the same point and this is a sex site, not a court of law! | |||
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" Just because you researched it and read something about it on BrexitCentral or some other 'EU super state' conspiracy site doesn't mean it's going to happen or even that it's based on truth at all. And quit the patronising attitude please, or I will simply not answer - life is too short to bother discussing anything with strangers on a sex site who cannot be bothered to be civil, it's unpleasant. I'm not patronising you but I did think your research might be limited, I may be wrong about that but, having researched myself and also read many of the documents you mention, I simply don't see how you can have come to the conclusions you have. That's just called disagreeing, not patronising. In my research I've only seen the conclusions you've reached on 'EU super state conspiracy' sites and similar. If you've found those conclusions else where I'd really like to know where and if you've come to those conclusions on your own interpretation of the source documents then I'd like to know which parta of those documents led you to those conclusions so I can review them myself in case I missed something. Just to be clear, I'm definitely not trying to patronise you but I am most definitely disagreeing with you. You sounded patronising. " Thanks Clem. | |||
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" Just because you researched it and read something about it on BrexitCentral or some other 'EU super state' conspiracy site doesn't mean it's going to happen or even that it's based on truth at all. And quit the patronising attitude please, or I will simply not answer - life is too short to bother discussing anything with strangers on a sex site who cannot be bothered to be civil, it's unpleasant. I'm not patronising you but I did think your research might be limited, I may be wrong about that but, having researched myself and also read many of the documents you mention, I simply don't see how you can have come to the conclusions you have. That's just called disagreeing, not patronising. In my research I've only seen the conclusions you've reached on 'EU super state conspiracy' sites and similar. If you've found those conclusions else where I'd really like to know where and if you've come to those conclusions on your own interpretation of the source documents then I'd like to know which parta of those documents led you to those conclusions so I can review them myself in case I missed something. Just to be clear, I'm definitely not trying to patronise you but I am most definitely disagreeing with you. You sounded patronising. Thanks Clem. " Think of it this way, if you voted labour, JC would never let the UK be part of the EU army. He’s a committed pacifist! | |||
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" We have a say. More of a say than other countries in the EU. 'Having a say' is not independence. If you cannot understand the difference you will never understand why anyone voted to leave. Besides, we have no say whatsoever over the rulings of the ECJ who's law has an entirely different basis to our own, and majority voting will increasingly take over the illusion of free choice anyway. I think you may have been reading to much about the fake Lisbon Treaty. Will be saying we're all going to be conscripted in to a mythical EU army next. What do you think is mythical about it when closer intelligence and defence cooperation and integration is already happening and EU leaders like Der Leyen, Merkel, Macron, Verhoftwat and Junker are all pressing for a combined force under EU command?" and again... the UK, Ireland.. and funny enough, Denmark, all have an "opt out" on expanded defence co-operation, so unless they all agree on it.... not happening! | |||
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" We have a say. More of a say than other countries in the EU. 'Having a say' is not independence. If you cannot understand the difference you will never understand why anyone voted to leave. Besides, we have no say whatsoever over the rulings of the ECJ who's law has an entirely different basis to our own, and majority voting will increasingly take over the illusion of free choice anyway. I think you may have been reading to much about the fake Lisbon Treaty. Will be saying we're all going to be conscripted in to a mythical EU army next. What do you think is mythical about it when closer intelligence and defence cooperation and integration is already happening and EU leaders like Der Leyen, Merkel, Macron, Verhoftwat and Junker are all pressing for a combined force under EU command? and again... the UK, Ireland.. and funny enough, Denmark, all have an "opt out" on expanded defence co-operation, so unless they all agree on it.... not happening!" They won't believe you or me or anyone else that may break the myth peddling by Farage & Co | |||
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"He’s a committed pacifist" If only all leaders could be, either committed or pacifist either would do... Then we could spend money on saving the planet instead of trying to blow it up | |||
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" We have a say. More of a say than other countries in the EU. 'Having a say' is not independence. If you cannot understand the difference you will never understand why anyone voted to leave. Besides, we have no say whatsoever over the rulings of the ECJ who's law has an entirely different basis to our own, and majority voting will increasingly take over the illusion of free choice anyway. I think you may have been reading to much about the fake Lisbon Treaty. Will be saying we're all going to be conscripted in to a mythical EU army next. What do you think is mythical about it when closer intelligence and defence cooperation and integration is already happening and EU leaders like Der Leyen, Merkel, Macron, Verhoftwat and Junker are all pressing for a combined force under EU command? and again... the UK, Ireland.. and funny enough, Denmark, all have an "opt out" on expanded defence co-operation, so unless they all agree on it.... not happening!" We already had agreed to much of the systems integration which could permanently compromise intelligence and defence independence. There are dozens of interlocking projects and protocols and treaties which have had very little parliamentary scrutiny and virtually no public debate. Bojo's deal contains far less commitment than May's did apparently, but it is said there are still dangers that trigger points can easily be passed without their ramifications being understood. The law is very complex, and Barnier was clear, cooperation is not on offer, participation means integration. | |||
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" We have a say. More of a say than other countries in the EU. 'Having a say' is not independence. If you cannot understand the difference you will never understand why anyone voted to leave. Besides, we have no say whatsoever over the rulings of the ECJ who's law has an entirely different basis to our own, and majority voting will increasingly take over the illusion of free choice anyway. I think you may have been reading to much about the fake Lisbon Treaty. Will be saying we're all going to be conscripted in to a mythical EU army next. What do you think is mythical about it when closer intelligence and defence cooperation and integration is already happening and EU leaders like Der Leyen, Merkel, Macron, Verhoftwat and Junker are all pressing for a combined force under EU command? and again... the UK, Ireland.. and funny enough, Denmark, all have an "opt out" on expanded defence co-operation, so unless they all agree on it.... not happening! We already had agreed to much of the systems integration which could permanently compromise intelligence and defence independence. There are dozens of interlocking projects and protocols and treaties which have had very little parliamentary scrutiny and virtually no public debate. Bojo's deal contains far less commitment than May's did apparently, but it is said there are still dangers that trigger points can easily be passed without their ramifications being understood. The law is very complex, and Barnier was clear, cooperation is not on offer, participation means integration. " Cooperation compromises intelligence independence. What is the Five Eyes? What defence independence is compromised? Is NATO bad? The "senior" officer(s) you appear to have been referring to seems to be a retired Lieutenant Colonel on some dodgy "veterans" Brexit website. Anyone else. There are no "trigger" points. There are not dozens of treaties. You have no clue what your talking about but you've read some complicated sounding vocabulary that you are choosing to believe. You really are wrapped in tinfoil. | |||
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" There are not dozens of treaties. " Are you really that bad at research? I said "There are dozens of interlocking projects and protocols and treaties" Here's a direct quot from the EEAS website: "In a rapidly changing world, the EU and its Member States continue stepping up their work for Europe's collective security and the security of European citizens, working closely with partners. Much work has been achieved at the EU level over the past few years and the EU toolbox for security and defence has been strengthened with a number of new initiatives. PESCO is one of them, as it enables EU Member States to work more closely together in the area of security and defence. Within PESCO, they can develop jointly defence capabilities, invest in shared projects, and enhance the operational readiness and contribution of their armed forces. First established in December 2017, PESCO counts 25 participating Member States and a current total number of 47 projects....." That's one shy of **4 dozen** on PESCO alone!! I shall endeavour to ignore your posts, you are just too lazy. | |||
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" There are not dozens of treaties. Are you really that bad at research? I said "There are dozens of interlocking projects and protocols and treaties" Here's a direct quot from the EEAS website: "In a rapidly changing world, the EU and its Member States continue stepping up their work for Europe's collective security and the security of European citizens, working closely with partners. Much work has been achieved at the EU level over the past few years and the EU toolbox for security and defence has been strengthened with a number of new initiatives. PESCO is one of them, as it enables EU Member States to work more closely together in the area of security and defence. Within PESCO, they can develop jointly defence capabilities, invest in shared projects, and enhance the operational readiness and contribution of their armed forces. First established in December 2017, PESCO counts 25 participating Member States and a current total number of 47 projects....." That's one shy of **4 dozen** on PESCO alone!! I shall endeavour to ignore your posts, you are just too lazy." Then vote labour for no EU army | |||
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" There are not dozens of treaties. Are you really that bad at research? I said "There are dozens of interlocking projects and protocols and treaties" Here's a direct quot from the EEAS website: "In a rapidly changing world, the EU and its Member States continue stepping up their work for Europe's collective security and the security of European citizens, working closely with partners. Much work has been achieved at the EU level over the past few years and the EU toolbox for security and defence has been strengthened with a number of new initiatives. PESCO is one of them, as it enables EU Member States to work more closely together in the area of security and defence. Within PESCO, they can develop jointly defence capabilities, invest in shared projects, and enhance the operational readiness and contribution of their armed forces. First established in December 2017, PESCO counts 25 participating Member States and a current total number of 47 projects....." That's one shy of **4 dozen** on PESCO alone!! I shall endeavour to ignore your posts, you are just too lazy." A "project" is not a treaty. Colouring in a picture is a "project"
Do you understand what any of the words that you are writing mean?
Yes, I am being patronising because none of what you have written is any sort of threat to any country's military or intelligence independence.
I understand that you don't like the idea of working with other people.
Do you have a problem with the Five Eyes or NATO?
Do you have a problem with the Five Eyes or NATO?
Do you have a problem with the Five Eyes or NATO?
Do you have a problem with the Five Eyes or NATO?
Do you have a problem with the Five Eyes or NATO?
Do you understand the question? | |||
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" There are not dozens of treaties. Are you really that bad at research? I said "There are dozens of interlocking projects and protocols and treaties" Here's a direct quot from the EEAS website: "In a rapidly changing world, the EU and its Member States continue stepping up their work for Europe's collective security and the security of European citizens, working closely with partners. Much work has been achieved at the EU level over the past few years and the EU toolbox for security and defence has been strengthened with a number of new initiatives. PESCO is one of them, as it enables EU Member States to work more closely together in the area of security and defence. Within PESCO, they can develop jointly defence capabilities, invest in shared projects, and enhance the operational readiness and contribution of their armed forces. First established in December 2017, PESCO counts 25 participating Member States and a current total number of 47 projects....." That's one shy of **4 dozen** on PESCO alone!! I shall endeavour to ignore your posts, you are just too lazy." OK Boomer | |||
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" Closer intelligence and defence cooperation and integration has been happening in (western) Europe since we joined NATO. That's a good thing. And I'm sure you're right that there are some people in Europe, indeed even some people in Britain and even in the US, who believe that Europe should coordinate it's armies even more closely for their mutual defence. That's not the same thing as having an EU Army. https://fullfact.org/online/EU-army-conscription/ Just because you researched it and read something about it on BrexitCentral or some other 'EU super state' conspiracy site doesn't mean it's going to happen or even that it's based on truth at all. " This idea has been around since the 1950s. Nothing new in it all. What's new is anxiety in European capitals about Trump's commitment to NATO and therefore consideration of an alternative security arrangement. Only this week Macron was questioning whether Article 5 of the NATO Treaty - an attack on one is an attack on us all - remains alive. The "America First" mindset is shining through in Trump's attitude towards NATO. He is hectoring European partners to increase their defence spending - and insisting that money should be spent in munitions factories in the US. This is one of the reasons Macron and Merkel are beginning to look at whether Europe can develop its own military production capabilities. At present, the production capacity in Europe is insufficient to hold back an invasion from the East. | |||
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" Closer intelligence and defence cooperation and integration has been happening in (western) Europe since we joined NATO. That's a good thing. And I'm sure you're right that there are some people in Europe, indeed even some people in Britain and even in the US, who believe that Europe should coordinate it's armies even more closely for their mutual defence. That's not the same thing as having an EU Army. https://fullfact.org/online/EU-army-conscription/ Just because you researched it and read something about it on BrexitCentral or some other 'EU super state' conspiracy site doesn't mean it's going to happen or even that it's based on truth at all. This idea has been around since the 1950s. Nothing new in it all. What's new is anxiety in European capitals about Trump's commitment to NATO and therefore consideration of an alternative security arrangement. Only this week Macron was questioning whether Article 5 of the NATO Treaty - an attack on one is an attack on us all - remains alive. The "America First" mindset is shining through in Trump's attitude towards NATO. He is hectoring European partners to increase their defence spending - and insisting that money should be spent in munitions factories in the US. This is one of the reasons Macron and Merkel are beginning to look at whether Europe can develop its own military production capabilities. At present, the production capacity in Europe is insufficient to hold back an invasion from the East. " Interesting point. Several EU nations are not handing over their NATO contributions - seems a high risk strategy to me! | |||
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" As already pointed out. You can't specify a single UK law that came from an EU regulation that you don't like. On the contrary, I listed a whole load of laws, restrictions and regulations on earlier threads - everything from veterinary medicine restrictions to paying rich farmers like Heseltine 90k to grow nothing ...endless pointless crap IMO. I don't enjoy endlessly repeating the same point and this is a sex site, not a court of law!" None of these are laws. Just catchphrases. You could be talking about set-a-side when you talk about farming? In which case it very important. But the UK voted for this. So I take it that you don't know of any actual laws that came from the EU that you don't like that we didn't vote for. I don't think you're a bad person. Just that you've believed a lot of the anti EU propaganda. | |||
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" As already pointed out. You can't specify a single UK law that came from an EU regulation that you don't like. On the contrary, I listed a whole load of laws, restrictions and regulations on earlier threads - everything from veterinary medicine restrictions to paying rich farmers like Heseltine 90k to grow nothing ...endless pointless crap IMO. I don't enjoy endlessly repeating the same point and this is a sex site, not a court of law! None of these are laws. Just catchphrases. You could be talking about set-a-side when you talk about farming? In which case it very important. But the UK voted for this. So I take it that you don't know of any actual laws that came from the EU that you don't like that we didn't vote for. I don't think you're a bad person. Just that you've believed a lot of the anti EU propaganda. " More fool you. EU regulations are legal obligations, and they are often imposed, it is naive to think we 'vote for them'. Just because we were signed up to the CAP or CFP does not mean we agree with all their ludicrous policies. 'Veterinary medicines restriction' is a catchphrase, anti-EU propaganda?? I challenge you to find one single mention of it anywhere on any anti EU site, that's the dumbest comment I've heard on the thread! I speak from direct experience, I worked closely with the VMD for some years. The EU restricts some life-saving medicines and nutrients we used to have access to for horses because they eat them. We don't. The ECJ can (and does) overturn our laws and impose it's own and that is not sovereignty. I find the European legal systems more concerned with the letter of the law than the spirit of the law, and I think our system is (historically anyway) more just. | |||
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