FabSwingers.com forum: HS2

By *tella Heels OP TV/TS
over a year ago

west here ford shire

Should it go ahead?

Should it be scrapped?

Originally estimated ( national audit report)£1.12 billions

Now estimated £3.3 billions

What’s your view?

Seems exceptionally expensive to move what maximum 2000 people an hour??

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Should it go ahead?

Should it be scrapped?

Originally estimated ( national audit report)£1.12 billions

Now estimated £3.3 billions

What’s your view?

Seems exceptionally expensive to move what maximum 2000 people an hour??

Your costs seem very low

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

And your capacity figure seems somewhat wrong too going by capacity figures online

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By *tella Heels OP TV/TS
over a year ago

west here ford shire

"Should it go ahead?

Should it be scrapped?

Originally estimated ( national audit report)£1.12 billions

Now estimated £3.3 billions

What’s your view?

Seems exceptionally expensive to move what maximum 2000 people an hour??

Your costs seem very low

Figures are just the first 27 miles

Full cost of phase 1 was estimated at £27billion

With stage 3 to Leeds and additional £29billion

It’s now thought that just phase 1 will be in excess of £56 billion

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By *tella Heels OP TV/TS
over a year ago

west here ford shire

"And your capacity figure seems somewhat wrong too going by capacity figures online "

If you look at their ludicrous claims they state18 trains an hour each way?

Yet not even the Tokyo express hi speed rail system gets anywhere near that

My guess it’s more like to be 6-8 an hour

Even that would pose an issue

I high speed train every ten mins, can’t see it myself

So ok 6trains an hour

500 pp train?

That’s still only 3000 people

How many do motorways supply ???

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"And your capacity figure seems somewhat wrong too going by capacity figures online

If you look at their ludicrous claims they state18 trains an hour each way?

Yet not even the Tokyo express hi speed rail system gets anywhere near that

My guess it’s more like to be 6-8 an hour

Even that would pose an issue

I high speed train every ten mins, can’t see it myself

So ok 6trains an hour

500 pp train?

That’s still only 3000 people

How many do motorways supply ???"

So your asking for opinions on national infrastructure but using only your own estimates on facts and figures.

Only time will tell I guess if it'll be worth it.

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By *ony 2016Man
over a year ago

Huddersfield /derby cinemas

Put Chris Grayling in charge of the project ,,,, what could possibly go wrong ??

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By *tella Heels OP TV/TS
over a year ago

west here ford shire

"And your capacity figure seems somewhat wrong too going by capacity figures online

If you look at their ludicrous claims they state18 trains an hour each way?

Yet not even the Tokyo express hi speed rail system gets anywhere near that

My guess it’s more like to be 6-8 an hour

Even that would pose an issue

I high speed train every ten mins, can’t see it myself

So ok 6trains an hour

500 pp train?

That’s still only 3000 people

How many do motorways supply ???

So your asking for opinions on national infrastructure but using only your own estimates on facts and figures.

Only time will tell I guess if it'll be worth it. "

Haha haha

Facts no one in the world operates a system like this anywhere near the 18 trains an hour quoted!

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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham

Whilst a modern economy needs high speed rail travel, this is the wrong project at the wrong time.

The sheer magnitude will mean deals and vast cost over-runs. If and when it finally gets built, it will already be out of date, and will only benefit a small share of the population.

The money would be better spent on better projects that would benefit many more.

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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham

Delays not deals!

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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham

"And your capacity figure seems somewhat wrong too going by capacity figures online

If you look at their ludicrous claims they state18 trains an hour each way?

Yet not even the Tokyo express hi speed rail system gets anywhere near that

My guess it’s more like to be 6-8 an hour

Even that would pose an issue

I high speed train every ten mins, can’t see it myself

So ok 6trains an hour

500 pp train?

That’s still only 3000 people

How many do motorways supply ???"

It's 18 trains each hour in each direction. That's 18 trains on the routes at any one time, not 18 departures every hour.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

The justification is that it will pull wealth away from London. I think it will have the opposite effect and suck more in.

Whatever the estimate, double and treble it to discover the actual cost.

I suspect more value could be gained by investing in lots of lines rather than one, especially across northern England.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"And your capacity figure seems somewhat wrong too going by capacity figures online

If you look at their ludicrous claims they state18 trains an hour each way?

Yet not even the Tokyo express hi speed rail system gets anywhere near that

My guess it’s more like to be 6-8 an hour

Even that would pose an issue

I high speed train every ten mins, can’t see it myself

So ok 6trains an hour

500 pp train?

That’s still only 3000 people

How many do motorways supply ???

So your asking for opinions on national infrastructure but using only your own estimates on facts and figures.

Only time will tell I guess if it'll be worth it.

Haha haha

Facts no one in the world operates a system like this anywhere near the 18 trains an hour quoted!"

There's going to be a first at some point probably

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By *oxychick35Couple
over a year ago

thornaby

"The justification is that it will pull wealth away from London. I think it will have the opposite effect and suck more in.

Whatever the estimate, double and treble it to discover the actual cost.

I suspect more value could be gained by investing in lots of lines rather than one, especially across northern England."
it was always to benefit London like everything else

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"The justification is that it will pull wealth away from London. I think it will have the opposite effect and suck more in.

Whatever the estimate, double and treble it to discover the actual cost.

I suspect more value could be gained by investing in lots of lines rather than one, especially across northern England. it was always to benefit London like everything else "

The money should be spent on infrastructure feeding into the capital of the north, which is Manchester.Keeping the money in the north.Also a shorter commute for other northern cities. .

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By *oxychick35Couple
over a year ago

thornaby

"The justification is that it will pull wealth away from London. I think it will have the opposite effect and suck more in.

Whatever the estimate, double and treble it to discover the actual cost.

I suspect more value could be gained by investing in lots of lines rather than one, especially across northern England. it was always to benefit London like everything else

The money should be spent on infrastructure feeding into the capital of the north, which is Manchester.Keeping the money in the north.Also a shorter commute for other northern cities. .

"
to true bob Manchester Liverpool Sheffield hull Leeds Newcastle they’ve been asking for that for years 15 billion I believe it was costed at will they get it will they fuck was more important to spend it on linking east to west London and a tv show about it to rub salt in the wounds lol

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By *olly_chromaticTV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport

"The justification is that it will pull wealth away from London. I think it will have the opposite effect and suck more in.

Whatever the estimate, double and treble it to discover the actual cost.

I suspect more value could be gained by investing in lots of lines rather than one, especially across northern England. it was always to benefit London like everything else

The money should be spent on infrastructure feeding into the capital of the north, which is Manchester.Keeping the money in the north.Also a shorter commute for other northern cities. .

to true bob Manchester Liverpool Sheffield hull Leeds Newcastle they’ve been asking for that for years 15 billion I believe it was costed at will they get it will they fuck was more important to spend it on linking east to west London and a tv show about it to rub salt in the wounds lol "

We must have thrown away at least 15 billion over the last three years...

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By *oxychick35Couple
over a year ago

thornaby

Probably right linking east and west London lol

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Should be scrapped. Pointless and will be over priced when complete. Upgrade the roads/build new ones. Also build more electric charging points, build another bridge or tunnel to help with dartford crossing that is still a pain in the back side at the best of times.

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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham

"Should be scrapped. Pointless and will be over priced when complete. Upgrade the roads/build new ones. Also build more electric charging points, build another bridge or tunnel to help with dartford crossing that is still a pain in the back side at the best of times. "

A new Thames crossing, a tunnel I believe, is in the planning stage.

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By *oxychick35Couple
over a year ago

thornaby

A new Thames crossing, a tunnel I believe, is in the planning stage. "
there’s a shock lol

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By *ophieslutTV/TS
over a year ago

Central

I think it's the wrong solution, to the wrong problem. It's certainly incredibly expensive and going to continue to rise more overbudget. It shaves a little bit of time off the journey but involves people having to change train stations eg, if you arrive at Birmingham New Street station via a connection, you'll have to make your way to another Birmingham station - which will use up even more time. It won't terminate at Euston either, so some connections will become more difficult.

The midlands to London routes now generally have very little remaining capacity but alternative options may have been the way to prevent an entirely new route, taking large areas of important countryside out, from being the chosen solution.

HS2 also doesn't bode well for the future midlands/northern route options and capacity - with remote stations again being created.

North of London has seen considerably lower levels of investment compared to the London, for public rail infrastructure. West to east isn't good and major cities including Sheffield and Manchester have poor connections. I think it's certain that we'll need much larger sums invested in the near future but more integrated and comprehensive solutions need to be chosen. It also seems folly to assume that private operators will run these services for profit, with most people being able to afford them, especially in light of Virgin East Coast who cancelled their contract to run the service, leaving the country to sort out the mess and them not paying up. The HS2 service would be yet another new train operator I think, which seems silly to create such ever increasing fragmentation.

If we are to reduce our global heating damage, we must look to shift substantial traffic onto trains and other public transportation.HS2 doesn't seem to do much to achieve that goal. It will need a major shift in both capacity and pricing, to attract the millions of drivers onto the rail network in sufficient numbers. Certainly it's clear that the conservatives aren't particularly reliable or trustworthy, expect for Grayling, the Transport Minister, being relied upon to fail and waste lots of taxpayers money.

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral

"Should it go ahead?

Should it be scrapped?

Originally estimated ( national audit report)£1.12 billions

Now estimated £3.3 billions

What’s your view?

Seems exceptionally expensive to move what maximum 2000 people an hour??

"
No what we need in the North WEest is decent links from Liverpool over to Hull and Newcastle etc.The cost of HS2 is wrong and not needed,it helps the South East again but not the North West

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

Call it HS2 or call it something else but the reality is that amongst thousands of equally valid infrastructure needs -the West Coast Mail Line is at capacity and “upgrading” it is tantamount to upgrading existing Motorways to do called smart Motorways. It ads a bit more capacity in the short term and just kicks the problem down the road a little.

The West Coast Main Line needs a massive boost to capacity, not an upgrade. This can only be delivered by a new track and hardware and if you are going to do that - why not get the very best and most sophisticated that is avsikable?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

We must have thrown away at least 15 billion over the last three years..."

We've spent / thrown away / lost far far more money because of the referendum vote than HS2 will ever cost.

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By *olly_chromaticTV/TS
over a year ago

Stockport

We must have thrown away at least 15 billion over the last three years...

We've spent / thrown away / lost far far more money because of the referendum vote than HS2 will ever cost.

Precisely what I was alluding to. Thousands of pounds per person in the country... All for abso-fucking-lutly nothing.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I thought we were all going to be working from home/replaced by robots/in electric autonomous vehicles in just 12 years?.

What the hell do we need more railways for?

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By *udith55TV/TS
over a year ago

Birmingham

IF petrol and diesel are no longer to be made after 2040, 20 million road vehicles will be scrapped and the only way to keep our economy going will be to reverse the Beeching cuts.

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By *ebjonnsonMan
over a year ago

Maldon

A few years ago the estimate was 75 billion. I was told by a friend in construction that 20 billion would be spent before a spade goes in the ground.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

I am on a rickety old train from Carlisle to Workington. A little bit of that money would not go amiss on this line.

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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham

"A few years ago the estimate was 75 billion. I was told by a friend in construction that 20 billion would be spent before a spade goes in the ground. "

Those consultants don't come cheap! Nor do over generous redundancy payments.

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By *ony 2016Man
over a year ago

Huddersfield /derby cinemas

If it does go ahead , might be a good idea to use steel made in Scunthorpe

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"If it does go ahead , might be a good idea to use steel made in Scunthorpe "

Government have paid for an order to help manage cash. Don’t know if that’s for H2 or not.

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By *estivalMan
over a year ago

borehamwood

no doubt it will be a complete fuck up just like crossrail has been over budget and ready 3 or 4 yrs late

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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham

"If it does go ahead , might be a good idea to use steel made in Scunthorpe

Government have paid for an order to help manage cash. Don’t know if that’s for H2 or not. "

Network Rail have placed an order on Scunthorpe for a year's supply of rails, worth about £70million.

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By *2000ManMan
over a year ago

Worthing

There is one thing, a small number of people will become very rich from hs2. In the form of consultations, meetings, expenses etc etc. A massive white elephant.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

I am in favour of hi speed trains, as a greener and safer option than our crappy motorways. Just like I got rid of my car in favour of going to work on the bus.

The more public transport options we have, the more cars taken off the road, the less carbon emissions.

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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago

near ipswich

"I am in favour of hi speed trains, as a greener and safer option than our crappy motorways. Just like I got rid of my car in favour of going to work on the bus.

The more public transport options we have, the more cars taken off the road, the less carbon emissions."
Very true plus will create 30,000 jobs and hundreds of new apprenticeships.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

It will probably cost well over £3billion as these projects always go massively over budget. The money would be better spent on encouraging businesses to set up in the north rather than moving people south.Why in the age of hi tech comms etc is it so important to be based in London.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

https://youtu.be/lQUglnEmhOc

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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago

near ipswich

"It will probably cost well over £3billion as these projects always go massively over budget. The money would be better spent on encouraging businesses to set up in the north rather than moving people south.Why in the age of hi tech comms etc is it so important to be based in London.

"
Moving people south??? i was under the impression that trains went both ways.

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By *tella Heels OP TV/TS
over a year ago

west here ford shire

Lol

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By *udith55TV/TS
over a year ago

Birmingham

Currently you can get on a train at either New Street or Euston, find a seat, set up your lap top and get a bit of work done before you get to your destination. HS2's higher speed may well reduce the amount of time you have to do business and you'll just have to look out of the window instead.

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By *heBirminghamWeekendMan
over a year ago

here

Horse and cart would give you even more time to get some business done

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Horse and cart would give you even more time to get some business done

LOL. So what we are saying is the northern powerhouse should be more productive than the south, given they have worse transport links.

And hs2 us a government conspiracy to bring the north down and make them poor.

Bet its funded by soros and the Rothchilds too.

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By *limmatureguyMan
over a year ago

Tonbridge

They said the Eurostar link was a waste of money but people take it for granted now. The money spent gets recycled into the economy and provides jobs for tens of thousands. It will be exactly the kind of stimulus needed after the Brexit economic shock.

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By *ostafunMan
over a year ago

near ipswich

"They said the Eurostar link was a waste of money but people take it for granted now. The money spent gets recycled into the economy and provides jobs for tens of thousands. It will be exactly the kind of stimulus needed after the Brexit economic shock."
Exactly some dont like progress the same was said about the m25 i know its crap but think what it would be like without it.stanstead airport was the same.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Do away with nuclear weapons at approx £100m a year... bingo HS2 & 3 fully funded

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Oops £100billion not million but the nuclear weapons programme is still more than HS2 scrap the bombs let’s have trains

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By *limmatureguyMan
over a year ago

Tonbridge

"Oops £100billion not million but the nuclear weapons programme is still more than HS2 scrap the bombs let’s have trains"

So if someone tries to invade us we're going to drive a train at them? Assuming they stand on the tracks

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Indeed, we're going to need every economic stimulus after the Brexit economic shock possible.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

The reality is if it still goes ahead the main company’s who will profit will be foreign ones using their own labour leaving all of the shit low level jobs for the brits

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By *oxychick35Couple
over a year ago

thornaby

"They said the Eurostar link was a waste of money but people take it for granted now. The money spent gets recycled into the economy and provides jobs for tens of thousands. It will be exactly the kind of stimulus needed after the Brexit economic shock.Exactly some dont like progress the same was said about the m25 i know its crap but think what it would be like without it.stanstead airport was the same."
its all to benefit London nothing else as always fucking waste of money

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"They said the Eurostar link was a waste of money but people take it for granted now. The money spent gets recycled into the economy and provides jobs for tens of thousands. It will be exactly the kind of stimulus needed after the Brexit economic shock.Exactly some dont like progress the same was said about the m25 i know its crap but think what it would be like without it.stanstead airport was the same.its all to benefit London nothing else as always fucking waste of money "

Yep if it was about the north it wouldnt be connecting to London.Its all about allowing people to live hundred of miles from London and commute into London for work.

It’s all about feeding London with more workers.

It’s utter crap to say its about Manchester and the midlands.

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By *evil_u_knowMan
over a year ago

city

"Only time will tell I guess if it'll be worth it. "

Terrible attitude, "Lets just do it and see if it was an enormous waste of money after"

The question that needs to be asked is if it will remove 3000 people from the motorways, or if it will just increase people moving between the places by 3000 an hour. ie everything will remain the same.

The ability to live near work cheaply should be a priority of the goverment instead.

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By *m389Man
over a year ago

Magherafelt

You kind of need to value the future benefit as well. Too often people only assess what benefit it would give today but not consider decades into the future.

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral

"You kind of need to value the future benefit as well. Too often people only assess what benefit it would give today but not consider decades into the future."
The costs are far greater than the slight benefits that may happen and manu lives disrupted in the meantime.

The North West needs a fast and modern rail link from East to West,Liverpool to Manchester/Leeds/Hull then up to Newcastle the North would benefit far more from this.Our railways are discusting and out of date.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"You kind of need to value the future benefit as well. Too often people only assess what benefit it would give today but not consider decades into the future.The costs are far greater than the slight benefits that may happen and manu lives disrupted in the meantime.

That’s what the north would like and needs but Westminster will always be London centric.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Infrastructure never hurt anybody, we're borrowing at 300 year lows, just build it.

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By *ab_SparklesWoman
over a year ago

sparkle Surprised

There was a radio chat about this but more about the the order of taking a home.

A lady called in saying her home was going to be 100 metres away from the line. Hers was slightly different she was unable to sell her home private due to this. Eventually she applied for the government to take it. After already having health issues and gaining alot more from this endless journey which should be easy. No apparently sent wrong valuer agreed 675.00,3mths another one came in they were heartbroken now only worth 612.00 from all the stress they took it. They have since found out that the government will be renting out the property until the line is live, there was no indication what would happen if the line was scrapped. Its awful hearing such sad uncertainty and unnecessary stress all for this line.

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By *ty31Man
over a year ago

NW London

Scrap it, the London to Birmingham line is a total waste of money and completely pointless. There's no need for the marginal savings in journey time it would bring given the advances in business technology (video conferencing etc) and the cost per journey would be too high for regular commuters. If HS2 is an attempt to encourage people to leave London I could see it having a detrimental effect on Birmingham property prices. As Londoners are used to paying more they would probably outbid Brummies in the housing market which could lead to a similar problem the London house market currently has (I.e. locals becoming priced out).

Would be better off using the money to improve the Northern transport connections in order to improve the economic output there.

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By *utton SimonMan
over a year ago

Sutton

"Scrap it, the London to Birmingham line is a total waste of money and completely pointless. There's no need for the marginal savings in journey time it would bring given the advances in business technology (video conferencing etc) and the cost per journey would be too high for regular commuters. If HS2 is an attempt to encourage people to leave London I could see it having a detrimental effect on Birmingham property prices. As Londoners are used to paying more they would probably outbid Brummies in the housing market which could lead to a similar problem the London house market currently has (I.e. locals becoming priced out).

Would be better off using the money to improve the Northern transport connections in order to improve the economic output there."
. Have to Mirror this thought,,, The cost is spiralling upwards each day, the new network from Brum upwards will never be ready until the late 2030’s. By then, the costs for travel will be ridiculous for most , there will be billions of subsidies annually to the operators to simply keep the system running, why not improve punctuality on all current services to a minimum of 99 percent on time, remove the stupid peak and off peak time tables increase northern capacity as a start..

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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago

North West

Would be better off using the money to improve the Northern transport connections in order to improve the economic output there."

Faster journey times are only one benefit, but it just happens to be the one benefit that those against the concept bang on about and derided as a pointless amount of time saved. Let’s look at smart motorways as a comparison. Most people have found that the benefits of smart motorways have not been worth the years of disruption beforehand. Smart motorways have provided a minimal increase in capacity but at a cost of reduced speeds and years upon years of prior disruption.

The rail network can be upgraded - but at what cost in disruption and when finished - by how much will capacity have increased? Building new track is the only way to meaningfully increase capacity and if you are going to build new track and new operating hardware why not fit it with the best train system that is available so that more trains per hour can be operated and thereby increase capacity even further?

HS2 has become the concept on which protestors hang their hats, but it is the very concept of additional track that is needed. Start in the north and go south and east if preferable, but abandoning the idea of building new track because of cost will be a very short sighted mistake. The channel tunnel went grossly over-budget, but it was built and it remains in place as an iconic feat of engineering that will last hundreds of years. The same may well happen with the various HS rail projects but at least they will always then be there to serve the population for a hundred years or more to come.

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By *ty31Man
over a year ago

NW London

Would be better off using the money to improve the Northern transport connections in order to improve the economic output there.

Agreed that new track is probably the way to increase passenger capacity but building an entirely new and unnecessary railway line is not the solution due to the unacceptable disruption to local communities and the extravagant costs of new trains etc. Surely a better solution for the Southern stretch would be to adopt a system similar to the Metropolitan line in London which runs semi fast and fast services (which shave time from the journey by skipping certain stops) as this would keep the amount of construction required to a minimum whilst allowing more trains per hour to run???

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

I hear this argument that HS2 will pull wealth out of London.

I think the opposite will happen.

It will simply suck more into London.

If the transport strategy was serious about spreading wealth to other areas, Birmingham Airport would be getting a new runway, not Heathrow.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I hear this argument that HS2 will pull wealth out of London.

I think the opposite will happen.

It will simply suck more into London.

If the transport strategy was serious about spreading wealth to other areas, Birmingham Airport would be getting a new runway, not Heathrow.

"
.

From my observations it's the opposite.

The exodus out of London is well underway.

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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham

"I hear this argument that HS2 will pull wealth out of London.

I think the opposite will happen.

It will simply suck more into London.

If the transport strategy was serious about spreading wealth to other areas, Birmingham Airport would be getting a new runway, not Heathrow.

From my observations it's the opposite.

The exodus out of London is well underway."

The ones with money live in the Shires. Any town with decent transport links within 100 miles of London, are fast becoming dormitory towns.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"I hear this argument that HS2 will pull wealth out of London.

I think the opposite will happen.

It will simply suck more into London.

If the transport strategy was serious about spreading wealth to other areas, Birmingham Airport would be getting a new runway, not Heathrow.

From my observations it's the opposite.

The exodus out of London is well underway.

The ones with money live in the Shires. Any town with decent transport links within 100 miles of London, are fast becoming dormitory towns. "
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I agree, it's been going on for awhile now that's why London house prices have been going down slowly for the last few years the 800,000 to a million sector are leaving in droves.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Build it and they'll leave even faster.

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