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Second preference vote

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 04/04/19 11:55:49]

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

ooops that came out wrong

I have just seen a labour politician on telly arguing for another referendum. He seems to think it has to be a binary choice along with most poiticians it would seem

My question is Are we as a nation too thick to understand what a second preference vote means and it's implications. I don't think we are but just wondering what the forumees think ?

Please no arguing about brexit and last referendum, bla bla bla, that's been done to death.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

No. In the council elections in Scotland, voters are asked to rank candidates in order of preference. I don’t know about England.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Referendums you choose a Binary choice, Parliament then do whatever they want if you have a minority Government.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Referendums you choose a Binary choice, Parliament then do whatever they want if you have a minority Government. "

Your going down politics route of current situation again. That's not what I'm asking. It's if there is a peoples vote should we have a second preference to solve the issue of leave, remain or leave with a deal. Surely a Binary choice would not be fit for purpose and not satisfy the 3 parties involved argument for a conclusive result which is why we are where we are.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Is and I do say if they have another referendum it will be whatever deal they come up with or crash out because they are too weak to tell the people who voted Leave that we would be staying.

The likes of bojo, jrm, and the others are all wealthy so it will not hurt them and indeed you can almost guarantee they will benefit financially from leaving.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Referendums you choose a Binary choice, Parliament then do whatever they want if you have a minority Government.

Your going down politics route of current situation again. That's not what I'm asking. It's if there is a peoples vote should we have a second preference to solve the issue of leave, remain or leave with a deal. Surely a Binary choice would not be fit for purpose and not satisfy the 3 parties involved argument for a conclusive result which is why we are where we are.

"

It was an answer because no matter how many levels of preference there is on a referendum card it still requires Parliament to accept it if the Government cannot push it through on it's own.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

That would result in us leaving on the say so of an even smaller majority as remainers will have no vote.

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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago

Barbados


"That would result in us leaving on the say so of an even smaller majority as remainers will have no vote."

Why? If remain was still one of the options e.g:

1) Remain

2) Accept option A

3) Accept option B

4) Accept option C

etc.

Then rank in terms of preference.

-Matt

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"That would result in us leaving on the say so of an even smaller majority as remainers will have no vote.

Why? If remain was still one of the options e.g:

1) Remain

2) Accept option A

3) Accept option B

4) Accept option C

etc.

Then rank in terms of preference.

-Matt

"

Because they will not put 3 options on the ballot paper it will be thier deal

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"That would result in us leaving on the say so of an even smaller majority as remainers will have no vote.

Why? If remain was still one of the options e.g:

1) Remain

2) Accept option A

3) Accept option B

4) Accept option C

etc.

Then rank in terms of preference.

-Matt

Because they will not put 3 options on the ballot paper it will be thier deal "

Agreed. Think it through. Hypothetically if you take result of last referendum.

Lets pretend that back in 2015 we knew what the outcome of negotiations was going to be and the ballot paper had 3 options.

A remain

B Leave with a deal

C leave whether we have a deal or not

So 48% say they want to remain as their first preference of the other 52% they are split with 45% saying leave with no deal no matter what and the other 7% if opinion polls are right are like me and say leave with a deal.

The 48% and 52% second preference using this vote method are ignored as they have their first preference sorted. Of the other 7% they said. Gor blimey guvnor leaving with no deal sounds a bit shite, 80% of their vote is added to the remain vote and 20% to the leave with no deal option. Of course it could be the other way round.

So 33,551,984 million bothered to vote so if 7% had second preference as I suggest 1,878,911 votes (80%)would be added to remain and 469,727 (20%) votes are added to leave without a deal.

The result would then be :-

18352711 to remain and 17870469 to leave no matter what.

The referendum would have generated a remain majority. Of course it’s completely hypothetical and the remainers might have voted to leave as their 2nd preference but that wouldn’t be terribly logical would it. Or maybe the people that said accept the deal was very pessimistic and loads said as their second preference that they were happy to leave.

Sorry if the maths is wrong, never was my strong point but 2nd preference is the answer and not a binary vote.

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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago

Barbados


"That would result in us leaving on the say so of an even smaller majority as remainers will have no vote.

Why? If remain was still one of the options e.g:

1) Remain

2) Accept option A

3) Accept option B

4) Accept option C

etc.

Then rank in terms of preference.

-Matt

Because they will not put 3 options on the ballot paper it will be thier deal

Agreed. Think it through. Hypothetically if you take result of last referendum.

Lets pretend that back in 2015 we knew what the outcome of negotiations was going to be and the ballot paper had 3 options.

A remain

B Leave with a deal

C leave whether we have a deal or not

So 48% say they want to remain as their first preference of the other 52% they are split with 45% saying leave with no deal no matter what and the other 7% if opinion polls are right are like me and say leave with a deal.

The 48% and 52% second preference using this vote method are ignored as they have their first preference sorted. Of the other 7% they said. Gor blimey guvnor leaving with no deal sounds a bit shite, 80% of their vote is added to the remain vote and 20% to the leave with no deal option. Of course it could be the other way round.

So 33,551,984 million bothered to vote so if 7% had second preference as I suggest 1,878,911 votes (80%)would be added to remain and 469,727 (20%) votes are added to leave without a deal.

The result would then be :-

18352711 to remain and 17870469 to leave no matter what.

The referendum would have generated a remain majority. Of course it’s completely hypothetical and the remainers might have voted to leave as their 2nd preference but that wouldn’t be terribly logical would it. Or maybe the people that said accept the deal was very pessimistic and loads said as their second preference that they were happy to leave.

Sorry if the maths is wrong, never was my strong point but 2nd preference is the answer and not a binary vote.

"

You don't know the preference order each person would have voted, so you have no way of working out what the outcome would be. Your hypothetical numbers don't cover that.

-Matt

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

Of course I don't. It was just a example of how it would work based on opinion poll that shows how only 7% of people liked the leave with deal option.

Their is no obligation at all using this system to express a 2nd preference. The point I'm making is do people understand it ?

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral


"ooops that came out wrong

I have just seen a labour politician on telly arguing for another referendum. He seems to think it has to be a binary choice along with most poiticians it would seem

My question is Are we as a nation too thick to understand what a second preference vote means and it's implications. I don't think we are but just wondering what the forumees think ?

Please no arguing about brexit and last referendum, bla bla bla, that's been done to death."
Yes as we have no experience of it and not enough time to educate the people

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral


"No. In the council elections in Scotland, voters are asked to rank candidates in order of preference. I don’t know about England."
Scotland is only a small part of the UK there is the problem

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"ooops that came out wrong

I have just seen a labour politician on telly arguing for another referendum. He seems to think it has to be a binary choice along with most poiticians it would seem

My question is Are we as a nation too thick to understand what a second preference vote means and it's implications. I don't think we are but just wondering what the forumees think ?

Please no arguing about brexit and last referendum, bla bla bla, that's been done to death.Yes as we have no experience of it and not enough time to educate the people"

Would 2 years be enough

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

London Mayoral elections use it too apparently and it's been very successful.

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By *oi_LucyCouple
over a year ago

Barbados


"London Mayoral elections use it too apparently and it's been very successful."

And the Bristol Mayoral election.

I think those that think writing a series of numbers from 1 to 5 (as an example) is boxes in order of your preference is too much for our electorate to master are either being very condescending or very honest and accurate... I've yet to work out which.

-Matt

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"ooops that came out wrong

I have just seen a labour politician on telly arguing for another referendum. He seems to think it has to be a binary choice along with most poiticians it would seem

My question is Are we as a nation too thick to understand what a second preference vote means and it's implications. I don't think we are but just wondering what the forumees think ?

Please no arguing about brexit and last referendum, bla bla bla, that's been done to death.Yes as we have no experience of it and not enough time to educate the people"

Would it be easier for you if you could spit at ballot paper?

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By *onny MCMan
over a year ago

Crawley

Why not ask two separate questions?

Q1 - Leave or Remain?

Q2 (In the event of "Leave" winning Q1)

May's Deal or No Deal?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why do the leavers have to win two votes and the remain camp only one?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do the leavers have to win two votes and the remain camp only one? "

If you want to look at it that way. Technically its 1 all.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 05/04/19 07:17:29]

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do the leavers have to win two votes and the remain camp only one?

If you want to look at it that way. Technically its 1 all."

Including the one in 1973? Wow...before most of Fab claim they were born!!

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East


"Why not ask two separate questions?

Q1 - Leave or Remain?

Q2 (In the event of "Leave" winning Q1)

May's Deal or No Deal? "

Two separate questions on two separate ballot papers. Yes, it's been done before in referenda in the UK.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why do the leavers have to win two votes and the remain camp only one?

If you want to look at it that way. Technically its 1 all.

Including the one in 1973? Wow...before most of Fab claim they were born!! "

Exactly. It's not important how many are won. The latest result is the most accurate reflection of the wishes of the people.

Personally I'm not in favour of another referendum. People clearly cant be trusted to vote in their own interest.

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago


"Why do the leavers have to win two votes and the remain camp only one? "

You're missing the point. The big criticism of the first referendum is that it was too simple a question to ask a complex question which could have more than 1 outcome. 3 years ago we did not know what the full out come was.

Inspite of parliaments best efforts there are only 3 really.

Everyone says this is Theresa Mays deal when infact it is the Best offer the EU have made, it's their deal. OK the backstop seems to be the main sticking point but to someone like me it's quite attractive. It steps us back from a federal Europe, they can get on with that if they like and yet we retain most of the benefits of membership with freedom of movements worst excesses curtailed. I don't really care about trade deals all over the world, I just happen to think that a potential government on mainland Europe is not what I'd like, it's too centralised and remote.

So given that my first preference would be accept the deal and second preference would be remain. However could I not just as easily be vote to leave without a deal. That is Mrs N''s preference I think. So leave and remain would be neutralised in the 2nd preference

Does that help explain why your statement isn't right that remain get 2 chances. Leave get 2 as well

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By (user no longer on site) OP   
over a year ago

The solution to the conundrum is something I wrote to Jeremy Corbyn, Theresa May, Nicola Sturgeon and my local MP back in December. Accept the deal and yes customs union too if that's what will get it through and then agree with the EU to have second referendum in 2 years time. Everyone could walk away with something. Leavers would get 1/2 in half out and step down road to leaving. Remainers get to keep most of the benefits of membership and the EU leaves the way open for us to return to the fold more fully in 2 years time.

It is dependent on holding a 2nd preference referendum though as the 3 options need keeping open.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago


"Why not ask two separate questions?

Q1 - Leave or Remain?

Q2 (In the event of "Leave" winning Q1)

May's Deal or No Deal?

Two separate questions on two separate ballot papers. Yes, it's been done before in referenda in the UK.

"

Sounds way too sensible for the powers that be

But I see it as as good compromise as long as they ran them as 2 separate ballots on separate days or the public will just get confused !

That way we can see if anything has changed with the public in the last 3 years of this fiasco!

Maybe then bojo,mogg and Smith will finally shut the fuck up

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