Join us FREE, we're FREE to use
Web's largest swingers site since 2006.
Already registered?
Login here
Join us FREE, we're FREE to use
Web's largest swingers site since 2006.
Already registered?
Login here
 | Back to forum list |
| Back to Politics |
| Jump to newest |  |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"A very sensitive issue and heart breaking for the families involved. But the Good Friday agreement provided a framework where people were given immunity in order to secure lasting peace. I see no value in dragging this up now and opening a whole can or worms. Leave it in the past and let peace prevail." Well that's not true. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"If we prosecute annyone involved we should prosecute everyone involved " If you've seen live footage of identifiable republicans murdering people and they weren't subsequently prosecuted please let us know. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"A very sensitive issue and heart breaking for the families involved. But the Good Friday agreement provided a framework where people were given immunity in order to secure lasting peace. I see no value in dragging this up now and opening a whole can or worms. Leave it in the past and let peace prevail." Not prosecuting someone for multiple murders is more likely to open a can of worms than prosecuting them. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"And they wonder why they cannot get new recruits into the army " Yeah, who wants to join the army when you can't get away with murder... | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"If we prosecute annyone involved we should prosecute everyone involved " Agreed, if UK soldiers are to be prosecuted over the Troubles then full investigations into everything on both sides should be reopened and everyone brought before the courts. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"And they wonder why they cannot get new recruits into the army Yeah, who wants to join the army when you can't get away with murder..." Well quite. But I think now, young people are more polically aware. And therefore less likely to want to get shot raiding a villiage in the Middle East, purely to benefit the oil and arms companies. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"A very sensitive issue and heart breaking for the families involved. But the Good Friday agreement provided a framework where people were given immunity in order to secure lasting peace. I see no value in dragging this up now and opening a whole can or worms. Leave it in the past and let peace prevail." The most sensible view on a terrible situation | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"A very sensitive issue and heart breaking for the families involved. But the Good Friday agreement provided a framework where people were given immunity in order to secure lasting peace. I see no value in dragging this up now and opening a whole can or worms. Leave it in the past and let peace prevail."  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"And they wonder why they cannot get new recruits into the army Yeah, who wants to join the army when you can't get away with murder..." And what about all of the murdering cunts in the ira ect ? All the ones who got the free passes  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"And they wonder why they cannot get new recruits into the army Yeah, who wants to join the army when you can't get away with murder... And what about all of the murdering cunts in the ira ect ? All the ones who got the free passes "these were unarmed and peacfully protesting civillians....the IRA cunts are a seperate issue. If a state can open fire on general members of the public without some sort of reaction then.... god help us all. Do not get confused with armed ira members and regular folk out protesting for their rights as citizens.... anti war dot com | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"And they wonder why they cannot get new recruits into the army " So nothing to do with upping the minimum service term to 5 years, reducing military numbers to such an extent that all those in the forces spend most of their time on active service, while all the benefits of being in the military are being stripped from those serving. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I think this is more about the Ballymurphy massacre . Great documentary on it recently Involving the Paras again. If they had cameras at that Bloody Sunday would not have happened. All those murdered at Ballymurphy are still not classed as innocent as againg the chief man of para claimed again his lot came under fire. The inquest is certainly throwing it all out there " The British Establishment is better at covering up than 'fessing up. Why is that? An arrogant sense of entitlement. Bloody Sunday is the just the latest in a long line on scandals where a story was fabricated, where innocents were smeared and villainised, in order to protect the guilty. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I think this is more about the Ballymurphy massacre . Great documentary on it recently Involving the Paras again. If they had cameras at that Bloody Sunday would not have happened. All those murdered at Ballymurphy are still not classed as innocent as againg the chief man of para claimed again his lot came under fire. The inquest is certainly throwing it all out there The British Establishment is better at covering up than 'fessing up. Why is that? An arrogant sense of entitlement. Bloody Sunday is the just the latest in a long line on scandals where a story was fabricated, where innocents were smeared and villainised, in order to protect the guilty. " not like the establishment to put up smoke sceeen is it we all know about hillsborugh and we all knew the truth 30 years ago but one big cover up absolutely shocking what goes on | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The British Establishment is better at covering up than 'fessing up. Why is that? An arrogant sense of entitlement. Bloody Sunday is the just the latest in a long line on scandals where a story was fabricated, where innocents were smeared and villainised, in order to protect the guilty. " Agreed... Hillsboro... The real question should be how come none of the officers, who ordered their men to attack unarmed civil rights protesters and then allowed their men to run riot and murder people it was their duty to protect, have been charged with any of the myriad of crimes they committed on the day and afterwards. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
""The Public Prosecution Service of Northern Ireland this morning recommended that one former paratrooper – soldier F – is to be charged with two murders and four attempted murders during Bloody Sunday in Londonderry in 1972, Northern Ireland’s Public Prosecution Service (PPS) has announced. Prosecutions against the 16 other former members of the 1st Battalion Parachute Regiment in relation to the events of January 30 1972 will not be taken." So 16 paras get away with murder. So who killed the rest of the civil rights marchers that day ?" No one is getting away with murder. I am certain that none of the paratroopers got up on the morning concerned and planned to murder. They were simply doing a job and attempting to keep the peace in difficult circumstances . | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" They were simply doing a job and attempting to keep the peace in difficult circumstances . " No-one who is "simply doing their job" gets charged with murder. I've never seen that on a job description: "must be willing to slaughter the citizens you pledge to protect". | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"And they wonder why they cannot get new recruits into the army Yeah, who wants to join the army when you can't get away with murder... And what about all of the murdering cunts in the ira ect ? All the ones who got the free passes
these were unarmed and peacfully protesting civillians....the IRA cunts are a seperate issue. If a state can open fire on general members of the public without some sort of reaction then.... god help us all. Do not get confused with armed ira members and regular folk out protesting for their rights as citizens....
anti war dot com" | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I can only speak as a Veteran on this matter. I'm not here to challenge anyone else's view, just putting my own across. I've been in a similair situation to "Bloody Sunday" Myself. Fortunately for all involved, nothing bad actually happened. It was very scary. It always is stepping outside the saftey of camp. You have no idea which eyes are friendly and which are looking at you through the sights of a gun. You're on constant high alert that never dies away. Even today I'll freak out a bit over a random firework or crowded, noisy environments a bit and need headspace. I was also very young, naive, lacked confidence and had been broken a bit and built back up by Basic Training. We also had NO RULES OF ENGAGEMENT. Only common sense to go off. I've always been a bit of a 'fuck authority' kind of person and my privileged childhood gave me enough confidence to challenge the direct order I was given to Kill innocent people. I didn't think we should have been Iraq in the first place, but peer pressure pushed me into it. I didn't object on moral grounds, which still eats at me today. I was 23 and still very naive at the time. Like many of my peers, who hadn't grown up in the Middle East. Didn't know Arab culture like I did. Didn't follow politics like I did. These were young men who mostly struggled in school, great at Physical stuff, but on the whole, n there were very few brainiacs amongst our number. Nearly all of us joined because we wanted to be hero's and protect people. We all believed that Britain was a good country, because that's all we hear about every Remembrance Day as kids. Glory, Honour, Sacrifice for the Greater good. As an almost 40yr old pool boy whose politics are so far off the spectrum that I'm labelled an idealist, humanitariam or utopian. I feel the only way to truly show love and respect to those who die protecting us whilst we eat, sleep and fuck. The forces personnel who bleed to death alongside our 'enemies' in pools of shit, screams and tears. Is to stop - fucking - killing -people over shit that doesn't really matter! Usually power, money, religion or nationalism. Let the dead rest and the survivors survive, whichever side they're on. Put and end to this nonsense. It's over. Done. Show some empathy, compassion, realise the anger comes from grief and loss. Forgive. Let go, move on. Be happy. Peace. " If you were patrolling anywhere with British Army from the Boer Wars to the present day - you had rules of engagement. You may have somehow chose to ignore or, not both read and hear them but they would have been there. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"If my situation had gone bad. Should I as the naive young boy with the gun.. be held responsible, if I'm given direct orders to do something by a Senior Non Comissioned Officer? Or should they? Both of us? Or the person who gave him orders? The Prime Minister? All of you, who as a political 'democracy' sent us there? The IRA for fighting the cause they believed in? The Iraqis fighting for theirs? Where does it end? Where does it begin? I took responsibility for my own actions. I'm me though." I feel your pain. But one thing was continually impressed on me all the way through basic, that was: Regardless of who gave me an order if I committed a crime while in uniform the Nuremberg would fail (just as it did for the Nazis) and it was my duty to obey the law and follow the rules of war. Therefore regardless of the consequences it was my duty to refuse to obey any unlawful orders given to me. I will add that throughout my service I had the distinct displeasure of coming into contact with individuals who spent their time fighting and looking for opportunities to inflict the maximum damage on those weaker than themselves because they were 'trained killers', and many who professed to be looking for opportunities to shoot people. Now I know much of the latter was nothing more than bravado, but the problem with bravado is that it quickly turns into action when group mentality takes over. I would further point out that I never came across this bravado or attitude in those who received any sort of advanced teeth arms training. And to be clear learning how to be pushed out of a perfectly serviceable plane is not advanced teeth arms training, its nothing more than a high risk way to send a non return airmail of LI to a place that can't be reached by any other means. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"If my situation had gone bad. Should I as the naive young boy with the gun.. be held responsible, if I'm given direct orders to do something by a Senior Non Comissioned Officer? Or should they? Both of us? Or the person who gave him orders? The Prime Minister? All of you, who as a political 'democracy' sent us there? The IRA for fighting the cause they believed in? The Iraqis fighting for theirs? Where does it end? Where does it begin? I took responsibility for my own actions. I'm me though. I feel your pain. But one thing was continually impressed on me all the way through basic, that was: Regardless of who gave me an order if I committed a crime while in uniform the Nuremberg would fail (just as it did for the Nazis) and it was my duty to obey the law and follow the rules of war. Therefore regardless of the consequences it was my duty to refuse to obey any unlawful orders given to me. I will add that throughout my service I had the distinct displeasure of coming into contact with individuals who spent their time fighting and looking for opportunities to inflict the maximum damage on those weaker than themselves because they were 'trained killers', and many who professed to be looking for opportunities to shoot people. Now I know much of the latter was nothing more than bravado, but the problem with bravado is that it quickly turns into action when group mentality takes over. I would further point out that I never came across this bravado or attitude in those who received any sort of advanced teeth arms training. And to be clear learning how to be pushed out of a perfectly serviceable plane is not advanced teeth arms training, its nothing more than a high risk way to send a non return airmail of LI to a place that can't be reached by any other means." I remember the odd lesson with the Padre in Basic. To me the Armed Forces Chiefs are as gutless as the Civvies who command them. They want to make the boy with the gun the scapegoat. When the impossible position they put them in goes to Hell in a Handbasket. I've seen the mob mentality you mention. I see it on here too. Ugly. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I remember the odd lesson with the Padre in Basic. To me the Armed Forces Chiefs are as gutless as the Civvies who command them. They want to make the boy with the gun the scapegoat. When the impossible position they put them in goes to Hell in a Handbasket. I've seen the mob mentality you mention. I see it on here too. Ugly." Yep, yep, yep and yep. When things go wrong they quickly turn to shit, and when the shit hits the fan everyone gets a bit. The problem is that too many glory hunting junior (short service commission type) officers and vain glorious NCO's (the 18 year 'SP/RP' lance jack/full screw who loves beasting the poor sods on ROP's or locked up in the Guard Room) enjoy throwing shit into the fan to prove their worth. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I remember the odd lesson with the Padre in Basic. To me the Armed Forces Chiefs are as gutless as the Civvies who command them. They want to make the boy with the gun the scapegoat. When the impossible position they put them in goes to Hell in a Handbasket. I've seen the mob mentality you mention. I see it on here too. Ugly. Yep, yep, yep and yep. When things go wrong they quickly turn to shit, and when the shit hits the fan everyone gets a bit. The problem is that too many glory hunting junior (short service commission type) officers and vain glorious NCO's (the 18 year 'SP/RP' lance jack/full screw who loves beasting the poor sods on ROP's or locked up in the Guard Room) enjoy throwing shit into the fan to prove their worth." Yep yep yep 
I used that as an example in toxic masculinity thread earlier this year. Very few understood what I was getting at.
Yet you look at the difference between the likes of the Parachute Regiment and the Regiment. The way in which they hold themselves and interact with others.
I only spent a little time in the Forces, but I saw a lot and spoke to many whilst in and since I've left.
I'm not SF, never was. Though I find myself more in tune to their way of operating, their manner in treating others.. much more akin to my own beliefs. Look after one another and use your own brain to make the best decision on the ground when it happens.. Shame my phys was so bad
Anyway, I think we're derailing the thread accidentally.
I don't like seeing soldiers prosecuted for things they've been ordered to do. Not when the Forces have Brainwashed their way of thinking and that all orders are to be followed. Encouraging the bully like NCOs you mentioned.
On the flip side.. If it's a clear case of individual culpability e.g. Marine A in Afghanistan. Then yeah.. tough shit mate, you let the side down. Mitigating circumstances granted, but you still fucked up big time. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I remember the odd lesson with the Padre in Basic. To me the Armed Forces Chiefs are as gutless as the Civvies who command them. They want to make the boy with the gun the scapegoat. When the impossible position they put them in goes to Hell in a Handbasket. I've seen the mob mentality you mention. I see it on here too. Ugly. Yep, yep, yep and yep. When things go wrong they quickly turn to shit, and when the shit hits the fan everyone gets a bit. The problem is that too many glory hunting junior (short service commission type) officers and vain glorious NCO's (the 18 year 'SP/RP' lance jack/full screw who loves beasting the poor sods on ROP's or locked up in the Guard Room) enjoy throwing shit into the fan to prove their worth. Yep yep yep
I used that as an example in toxic masculinity thread earlier this year. Very few understood what I was getting at.
Yet you look at the difference between the likes of the Parachute Regiment and the Regiment. The way in which they hold themselves and interact with others.
I only spent a little time in the Forces, but I saw a lot and spoke to many whilst in and since I've left.
I'm not SF, never was. Though I find myself more in tune to their way of operating, their manner in treating others.. much more akin to my own beliefs. Look after one another and use your own brain to make the best decision on the ground when it happens.. Shame my phys was so bad
Anyway, I think we're derailing the thread accidentally.
I don't like seeing soldiers prosecuted for things they've been ordered to do. Not when the Forces have Brainwashed their way of thinking and that all orders are to be followed. Encouraging the bully like NCOs you mentioned.
On the flip side.. If it's a clear case of individual culpability e.g. Marine A in Afghanistan. Then yeah.. tough shit mate, you let the side down. Mitigating circumstances granted, but you still fucked up big time. "To quote a line from the film 71 . "The Army , Rich C*nts telling thick C*nts to kill Poor C*nts". While im not trying to annoy any soldiers, the basic premise is For the public schoolboy to get the farm hand to beat up the hungry peasants for knicking the spuds . | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I remember the odd lesson with the Padre in Basic. To me the Armed Forces Chiefs are as gutless as the Civvies who command them. They want to make the boy with the gun the scapegoat. When the impossible position they put them in goes to Hell in a Handbasket. I've seen the mob mentality you mention. I see it on here too. Ugly. Yep, yep, yep and yep. When things go wrong they quickly turn to shit, and when the shit hits the fan everyone gets a bit. The problem is that too many glory hunting junior (short service commission type) officers and vain glorious NCO's (the 18 year 'SP/RP' lance jack/full screw who loves beasting the poor sods on ROP's or locked up in the Guard Room) enjoy throwing shit into the fan to prove their worth. Yep yep yep
I used that as an example in toxic masculinity thread earlier this year. Very few understood what I was getting at.
Yet you look at the difference between the likes of the Parachute Regiment and the Regiment. The way in which they hold themselves and interact with others.
I only spent a little time in the Forces, but I saw a lot and spoke to many whilst in and since I've left.
I'm not SF, never was. Though I find myself more in tune to their way of operating, their manner in treating others.. much more akin to my own beliefs. Look after one another and use your own brain to make the best decision on the ground when it happens.. Shame my phys was so bad
Anyway, I think we're derailing the thread accidentally.
I don't like seeing soldiers prosecuted for things they've been ordered to do. Not when the Forces have Brainwashed their way of thinking and that all orders are to be followed. Encouraging the bully like NCOs you mentioned.
On the flip side.. If it's a clear case of individual culpability e.g. Marine A in Afghanistan. Then yeah.. tough shit mate, you let the side down. Mitigating circumstances granted, but you still fucked up big time.
To quote a line from the film 71 .
"The Army , Rich C*nts telling thick C*nts to kill Poor C*nts".
While im not trying to annoy any soldiers, the basic premise is
For the public schoolboy to get the farm hand to beat up the hungry peasants for knicking the spuds ."Yeah we get it Works for Civvies too though. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"In 1972 there were 149 soldier or police deaths from terrorism, and 249 civilian deaths in NI, who will be charged for those?" Read about Northern Ireland Riots 1969 & the fear amongst the Catholic population of Pogrom at the hands of the protestant population , | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"In 1972 there were 149 soldier or police deaths from terrorism, and 249 civilian deaths in NI, who will be charged for those?" There is a false equivalence built into your post. The idea that because there were other crimes committed that no one has been held to account for (by the way, you do not know that all those crimes went unpunished in law) somehow mitigates murders committed by elements of 1 Para acting on the direct orders of their on the ground commanders who in turn received orders from area and district commanders both military and civilian is nothing more than the most corrupt of deflections. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Just to be clear, I think the paras (and every other member of HM Armed forces used at any time, anywhere as police officers) were screwed when the decision was made to deploy them. Trained warriors do not make good police officers and vice versa. Neither end well." Surely trained warriors should realise that the orders given need to be questioned at the very least. Imagine it was an F.a Cup Semi Final at Hillsborough & not a Civil rights march in Derry. I still wouldnt blame tha basic squaddie to harshly but the military heirachy from the lowest officer to The head of political state should be held responsible & be liable for judicial sentencing . Alive or dead. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Just to be clear, I think the paras (and every other member of HM Armed forces used at any time, anywhere as police officers) were screwed when the decision was made to deploy them. Trained warriors do not make good police officers and vice versa. Neither end well." Especially when they're asked to be both police AND soldiers at the same time. Blame your politicians, who put us in those impossible positions. Who use us a scapegoats for their poor decision making. Which they get to practice at leisure and in luxury, whilst we have a split second and lives or deaths in the balance. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Just to be clear, I think the paras (and every other member of HM Armed forces used at any time, anywhere as police officers) were screwed when the decision was made to deploy them. Trained warriors do not make good police officers and vice versa. Neither end well. Especially when they're asked to be both police AND soldiers at the same time. Blame your politicians, who put us in those impossible positions. Who use us a scapegoats for their poor decision making. Which they get to practice at leisure and in luxury, whilst we have a split second and lives or deaths in the balance." Within 15mins of the ‘soldiers’ arriving on site they had started firing live rounds at unarmed civilians.. 108 shots fired by 28 ‘soldiers’ while innocent unarmed people ran and tried to hide.. Blame the politicians you say?? Bullshit I say.. blame and prosecute the ‘soldiers’ and COs | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Surely trained warriors should realise that the orders given need to be questioned at the very least. Imagine it was an F.a Cup Semi Final at Hillsborough & not a Civil rights march in Derry. I still wouldnt blame tha basic squaddie to harshly but the military heirachy from the lowest officer to The head of political state should be held responsible & be liable for judicial sentencing . Alive or dead." You misunderstand. Training is about developing 'muscle memory'. Muscle memory is the name given to training conditioned reflexes, conditioned reflexes take the brain and therefore decision making process out of the action reaction loop. As a result when correctly stimulated a trained warriors conditioning turns them into target destroyers where police are turned into non lethal target disruptors. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Just to be clear, I think the paras (and every other member of HM Armed forces used at any time, anywhere as police officers) were screwed when the decision was made to deploy them. Trained warriors do not make good police officers and vice versa. Neither end well. Especially when they're asked to be both police AND soldiers at the same time. Blame your politicians, who put us in those impossible positions. Who use us a scapegoats for their poor decision making. Which they get to practice at leisure and in luxury, whilst we have a split second and lives or deaths in the balance." We also had the yellow card over there, clearly defined rules of engagement under the law of the land.. One of my tours was 5 years after this event, we were briefed in no uncertain terms what our personal responsibilities and duties were in relation to the use of lethal force.. There was on that day a lack of control by the chain of command at all levels but personal responsibility can't be ignored because of that and the ballistics don't lie.. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Just to be clear, I think the paras (and every other member of HM Armed forces used at any time, anywhere as police officers) were screwed when the decision was made to deploy them. Trained warriors do not make good police officers and vice versa. Neither end well. Especially when they're asked to be both police AND soldiers at the same time. Blame your politicians, who put us in those impossible positions. Who use us a scapegoats for their poor decision making. Which they get to practice at leisure and in luxury, whilst we have a split second and lives or deaths in the balance. We also had the yellow card over there, clearly defined rules of engagement under the law of the land.. One of my tours was 5 years after this event, we were briefed in no uncertain terms what our personal responsibilities and duties were in relation to the use of lethal force.. There was on that day a lack of control by the chain of command at all levels but personal responsibility can't be ignored because of that and the ballistics don't lie.. " Spot on! However, why only 1 soldier being hung out to dry? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Just to be clear, I think the paras (and every other member of HM Armed forces used at any time, anywhere as police officers) were screwed when the decision was made to deploy them. Trained warriors do not make good police officers and vice versa. Neither end well. Especially when they're asked to be both police AND soldiers at the same time. Blame your politicians, who put us in those impossible positions. Who use us a scapegoats for their poor decision making. Which they get to practice at leisure and in luxury, whilst we have a split second and lives or deaths in the balance. We also had the yellow card over there, clearly defined rules of engagement under the law of the land.. One of my tours was 5 years after this event, we were briefed in no uncertain terms what our personal responsibilities and duties were in relation to the use of lethal force.. There was on that day a lack of control by the chain of command at all levels but personal responsibility can't be ignored because of that and the ballistics don't lie.. Spot on! However, why only 1 soldier being hung out to dry?" Not sure, looks more like a bodge or a token prosecution than actual justice.. Politically expedient perhaps given the current situation with the dup perhaps.. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Surely trained warriors should realise that the orders given need to be questioned at the very least. Imagine it was an F.a Cup Semi Final at Hillsborough & not a Civil rights march in Derry. I still wouldnt blame tha basic squaddie to harshly but the military heirachy from the lowest officer to The head of political state should be held responsible & be liable for judicial sentencing . Alive or dead. You misunderstand. Training is about developing 'muscle memory'. Muscle memory is the name given to training conditioned reflexes, conditioned reflexes take the brain and therefore decision making process out of the action reaction loop. As a result when correctly stimulated a trained warriors conditioning turns them into target destroyers where police are turned into non lethal target disruptors. " So just say that bundle of bullshit is true, how does innocent civilians running away become ‘targets that need to be destroyed’? It’s murder, plain and simple.. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Surely trained warriors should realise that the orders given need to be questioned at the very least. Imagine it was an F.a Cup Semi Final at Hillsborough & not a Civil rights march in Derry. I still wouldnt blame tha basic squaddie to harshly but the military heirachy from the lowest officer to The head of political state should be held responsible & be liable for judicial sentencing . Alive or dead. You misunderstand. Training is about developing 'muscle memory'. Muscle memory is the name given to training conditioned reflexes, conditioned reflexes take the brain and therefore decision making process out of the action reaction loop. As a result when correctly stimulated a trained warriors conditioning turns them into target destroyers where police are turned into non lethal target disruptors. " True. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Surely trained warriors should realise that the orders given need to be questioned at the very least. Imagine it was an F.a Cup Semi Final at Hillsborough & not a Civil rights march in Derry. I still wouldnt blame tha basic squaddie to harshly but the military heirachy from the lowest officer to The head of political state should be held responsible & be liable for judicial sentencing . Alive or dead. You misunderstand. Training is about developing 'muscle memory'. Muscle memory is the name given to training conditioned reflexes, conditioned reflexes take the brain and therefore decision making process out of the action reaction loop. As a result when correctly stimulated a trained warriors conditioning turns them into target destroyers where police are turned into non lethal target disruptors. True." Excuses.. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Partially brainwashed is just another excuse, they made a decision to pull the trigger and shoot kids in the back that day.. How can these families move on when their loved ones are being told what the ‘soldiers’ did was right.." Maybe you should direct your anger at the organisers of the march which was illegal. It can be confidently said that not one soldier would have got up on the morning in question with the intention of killing someone. The soldiers concerned were in a hostile environment and were there simply to keep the peace. When things go wrong you have a split second to react. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Angry crowds of hostile people are very scary places to be.You cannot see where the danger may come from. Mob mentality takes over on both sides. It's extremely intense. Sending Paras of all Regiments... into that environment was a bad idea to begin with. They were hyped up and there was an agenda at play by the Government at the time that I believe told the Paras to show no mercy and be rough with the crowd. to end the rally as quickly as possible. A situation like that is chaotic enough to spook one soldier into opening fire. Seen it happen in training, we spooked an infantry guy so bad he fired his rifle as a warming shot. Which is a big no no. Because it sets off the others.. all of whom are on tenderhooks. Expecting fire bombs, bottles, gunshots, missiles etc. One bang and that's it, training kicks in and people follow orders and trust in command as they don't know full facts. That's what can happen in any demonstration, look at the g20 rallies and such. Kettering, teargas, water cannons, rubber bullets.. the Paras didn't have any of that. They probably stormed in kicking the fuck out of everyone like they were told.. some fight back in self defence.. things escalate, someone panics in heat of the moment.. bang. Whole troop open fire in response. If they were ordered to kill then that's different, premeditated. Charge the soldier that did it. Charge the people who gave it. I don't think any of us, bar those involved know the truth of things, which is why I'm grey, not black and white about 'War Crimes' It depends on so many factors." 108 ‘warning shots’ from 28 ‘soldiers’ into the backs of kids.. just more excuses | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Kevin McElhinney 17 Shot in the back as he tried to crawl to safety.. That’s MURDER" Is it that black and white. Is it not manslaughter in some of the examples and mitigating scenarios I've mentioned? If not. Then we're at an impasse, because I wasn't there and I'm not privacy to all the facts. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Kevin McElhinney 17 Shot in the back as he tried to crawl to safety.. That’s MURDER Is it that black and white. Is it not manslaughter in some of the examples and mitigating scenarios I've mentioned? If not. Then we're at an impasse, because I wasn't there and I'm not privacy to all the facts." How about Bernard McGuigan 41 Shot in the head as he waved a white handkerchief trying to help the injured That’s MURDER | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"How in the name of human rights any of these mentioned anything else only murder, and them ARE the facts.." Because they are supposed to apply to everyone. We're clearly done here. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"How in the name of human rights any of these mentioned anything else only murder, and them ARE the facts.. Because they are supposed to apply to everyone. We're clearly done here." Gerard Donaghy 17 Shot in the stomach, died when the car that he was being brought to hospital was stopped by ‘soldiers’ and the driver put out That’s MURDER | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Partially brainwashed is just another excuse, they made a decision to pull the trigger and shoot kids in the back that day.. How can these families move on when their loved ones are being told what the ‘soldiers’ did was right.. Maybe you should direct your anger at the organisers of the march which was illegal. It can be confidently said that not one soldier would have got up on the morning in question with the intention of killing someone. The soldiers concerned were in a hostile environment and were there simply to keep the peace. When things go wrong you have a split second to react. " “ It can be confidently said“ by who- the soldiers. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"How in the name of human rights any of these mentioned anything else only murder, and them ARE the facts.." As you were not at the event ( or even alive then ).you are hardly in a position to state that the death of.the people to whom you refer are facts. It is simply a statement as to how you would like to present events , not what actually happened. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"How in the name of human rights any of these mentioned anything else only murder, and them ARE the facts.. As you were not at the event ( or even alive then ).you are hardly in a position to state that the death of.the people to whom you refer are facts. It is simply a statement as to how you would like to present events , not what actually happened. " These are actually the findings from the inquiry.. Although I’m guessing that won’t suit you.. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" I don't think any of us, bar those involved know the truth of things, which is why I'm grey, not black and white about 'War Crimes' It depends on so many factors." War crimes? That's an oxymoron. I do not recall the British Parliament declaring war on British citizens. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"I doubt i was even born then ot at least under 2, so I can't comment or begin to fully understand. What gets me is people same age or younger seems to have the answer, sorry but they don't all they have heard is newspapers and infor passed down. The only ones that know what happened are those their on a very tragic time one that I'm not condoning at all.. " And the inquest.. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This was cold bloodied murder against innocent ppl by the paras who thought they were above the law,every one of them should be prosecuted for murder and also for the ballymurphy murders and the top brass and british goverment should be prosecuted too " If you are seeking to apportion blame you should address that to the March organisers . They knew that it was an illegal March but went ahead with it regardless. If you choose to attach the forces of law and order there will inevitably be consequences of such actions . The soldiers in question probably had a split second in which to decide what action to take . These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This was cold bloodied murder against innocent ppl by the paras who thought they were above the law,every one of them should be prosecuted for murder and also for the ballymurphy murders and the top brass and british goverment should be prosecuted too If you are seeking to apportion blame you should address that to the March organisers . They knew that it was an illegal March but went ahead with it regardless. If you choose to attach the forces of law and order there will inevitably be consequences of such actions . The soldiers in question probably had a split second in which to decide what action to take . These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned " I’ll say it once again, it was 108 shots by 28 ‘soldiers’ into people backs and they tried to get away, has similarities to the NZ attack.. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This was cold bloodied murder against innocent ppl by the paras who thought they were above the law,every one of them should be prosecuted for murder and also for the ballymurphy murders and the top brass and british goverment should be prosecuted too If you are seeking to apportion blame you should address that to the March organisers . They knew that it was an illegal March but went ahead with it regardless. If you choose to attach the forces of law and order there will inevitably be consequences of such actions . The soldiers in question probably had a split second in which to decide what action to take . These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned " It was a civil rights march against the discrimination that ppl had to endure jobs,housing ect,the british army took it upon themselves to open fire on innocent ppl and murdered them in cold blood they should all be jailed and their superiors too ,murder is murder no matter when and how it was committed | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This was cold bloodied murder against innocent ppl by the paras who thought they were above the law,every one of them should be prosecuted for murder and also for the ballymurphy murders and the top brass and british goverment should be prosecuted too If you are seeking to apportion blame you should address that to the March organisers . They knew that it was an illegal March but went ahead with it regardless. If you choose to attach the forces of law and order there will inevitably be consequences of such actions . The soldiers in question probably had a split second in which to decide what action to take . These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned It was a civil rights march against the discrimination that ppl had to endure jobs,housing ect,the british army took it upon themselves to open fire on innocent ppl and murdered them in cold blood they should all be jailed and their superiors too ,murder is murder no matter when and how it was committed " It sure was an unholy mess which I can only try and formulate an opinion from what I can read up online but what I do struggle with is the notion of it being a peaceful civil rights march yet Gerald Donaghey had 4 nail bombs along with the rioting, rock throwing. Rioting, rock/missile throwing and nail bombs don't conjure up the image of peaceful marching to me. Either way, dark days which I hope are never repeated. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This was cold bloodied murder against innocent ppl by the paras who thought they were above the law,every one of them should be prosecuted for murder and also for the ballymurphy murders and the top brass and british goverment should be prosecuted too If you are seeking to apportion blame you should address that to the March organisers . They knew that it was an illegal March but went ahead with it regardless. If you choose to attach the forces of law and order there will inevitably be consequences of such actions . The soldiers in question probably had a split second in which to decide what action to take . These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned It was a civil rights march against the discrimination that ppl had to endure jobs,housing ect,the british army took it upon themselves to open fire on innocent ppl and murdered them in cold blood they should all be jailed and their superiors too ,murder is murder no matter when and how it was committed It sure was an unholy mess which I can only try and formulate an opinion from what I can read up online but what I do struggle with is the notion of it being a peaceful civil rights march yet Gerald Donaghey had 4 nail bombs along with the rioting, rock throwing. Rioting, rock/missile throwing and nail bombs don't conjure up the image of peaceful marching to me. Either way, dark days which I hope are never repeated. " If you do a little bit more reading you’ll find he had nothing on him when the medics were treating him including the army medic, but low and behold they appeared when the ‘soldiers’ started taking photos.. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Stop listening to british media it was a peaceful march " . As missiles were thrown at members of the organisations trying to uphold law and order you can hardly claim that it was a peaceful march. In addition it was an illegal one buy the organisers decided to go ahead anyway. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Stop listening to british media it was a peaceful march . As missiles were thrown at members of the organisations trying to uphold law and order you can hardly claim that it was a peaceful march. In addition it was an illegal one buy the organisers decided to go ahead anyway. " If you watch footage of the march the murdering british army were firing on innocent ppl before any missiles were thrown,id jail every one of the murderers | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Stop listening to british media it was a peaceful march " It may have been to start with but footage of that day I've viewed online showed different. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This was cold bloodied murder against innocent ppl by the paras who thought they were above the law,every one of them should be prosecuted for murder and also for the ballymurphy murders and the top brass and british goverment should be prosecuted too If you are seeking to apportion blame you should address that to the March organisers . They knew that it was an illegal March but went ahead with it regardless. If you choose to attach the forces of law and order there will inevitably be consequences of such actions . The soldiers in question probably had a split second in which to decide what action to take . These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned It was a civil rights march against the discrimination that ppl had to endure jobs,housing ect,the british army took it upon themselves to open fire on innocent ppl and murdered them in cold blood they should all be jailed and their superiors too ,murder is murder no matter when and how it was committed It sure was an unholy mess which I can only try and formulate an opinion from what I can read up online but what I do struggle with is the notion of it being a peaceful civil rights march yet Gerald Donaghey had 4 nail bombs along with the rioting, rock throwing. Rioting, rock/missile throwing and nail bombs don't conjure up the image of peaceful marching to me. Either way, dark days which I hope are never repeated. If you do a little bit more reading you’ll find he had nothing on him when the medics were treating him including the army medic, but low and behold they appeared when the ‘soldiers’ started taking photos.. " I've read the Saville report. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Ah is that the report that is now being brought into question?" No idea | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned " No-one gets charged with murder for “simply doing their job”. Can you show me the line in the job description of a soldier where it says their duties include shooting unarmed British citizens in the back? British citizens, for goodness sake, shot dead by British soldiers. And you think they were “simply doing their job”? What sort of fucking state do you think we live in? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"Ah is that the report that is now being brought into question?" The only thing that's being brought into question in relation to the Saville report is how the soldiers thought they could lie under oath all the way through it and not be caught out by ballistics reports and newsreel footage. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned No-one gets charged with murder for “simply doing their job”. Can you show me the line in the job description of a soldier where it says their duties include shooting unarmed British citizens in the back? British citizens, for goodness sake, shot dead by British soldiers. And you think they were “simply doing their job”? What sort of fucking state do you think we live in?" Easily said by someone without the experience of the day. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This was cold bloodied murder against innocent ppl by the paras who thought they were above the law,every one of them should be prosecuted for murder and also for the ballymurphy murders and the top brass and british goverment should be prosecuted too If you are seeking to apportion blame you should address that to the March organisers . They knew that it was an illegal March but went ahead with it regardless. If you choose to attach the forces of law and order there will inevitably be consequences of such actions . The soldiers in question probably had a split second in which to decide what action to take . These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned It was a civil rights march against the discrimination that ppl had to endure jobs,housing ect,the british army took it upon themselves to open fire on innocent ppl and murdered them in cold blood they should all be jailed and their superiors too ,murder is murder no matter when and how it was committed It sure was an unholy mess which I can only try and formulate an opinion from what I can read up online but what I do struggle with is the notion of it being a peaceful civil rights march yet Gerald Donaghey had 4 nail bombs along with the rioting, rock throwing. Rioting, rock/missile throwing and nail bombs don't conjure up the image of peaceful marching to me. Either way, dark days which I hope are never repeated. " There were no nail bombs. That was a cover invented by the military when they realised they had killed so many innocent people. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned No-one gets charged with murder for “simply doing their job”. Can you show me the line in the job description of a soldier where it says their duties include shooting unarmed British citizens in the back? British citizens, for goodness sake, shot dead by British soldiers. And you think they were “simply doing their job”? What sort of fucking state do you think we live in? Easily said by someone without the experience of the day. " There was nothing on the day to necessitate the use of lead bullets. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This was cold bloodied murder against innocent ppl by the paras who thought they were above the law,every one of them should be prosecuted for murder and also for the ballymurphy murders and the top brass and british goverment should be prosecuted too If you are seeking to apportion blame you should address that to the March organisers . They knew that it was an illegal March but went ahead with it regardless. If you choose to attach the forces of law and order there will inevitably be consequences of such actions . The soldiers in question probably had a split second in which to decide what action to take . These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned It was a civil rights march against the discrimination that ppl had to endure jobs,housing ect,the british army took it upon themselves to open fire on innocent ppl and murdered them in cold blood they should all be jailed and their superiors too ,murder is murder no matter when and how it was committed It sure was an unholy mess which I can only try and formulate an opinion from what I can read up online but what I do struggle with is the notion of it being a peaceful civil rights march yet Gerald Donaghey had 4 nail bombs along with the rioting, rock throwing. Rioting, rock/missile throwing and nail bombs don't conjure up the image of peaceful marching to me. Either way, dark days which I hope are never repeated. There were no nail bombs. That was a cover invented by the military when they realised they had killed so many innocent people. " Maybe so, maybe not, the Saville report said there was, I wasn't alive when this happened so I can't say for sure either way but many also not born when this occurred in 72 seem to know all the facts. Maybe they should put themselves forward as judge & jury? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This was cold bloodied murder against innocent ppl by the paras who thought they were above the law,every one of them should be prosecuted for murder and also for the ballymurphy murders and the top brass and british goverment should be prosecuted too If you are seeking to apportion blame you should address that to the March organisers . They knew that it was an illegal March but went ahead with it regardless. If you choose to attach the forces of law and order there will inevitably be consequences of such actions . The soldiers in question probably had a split second in which to decide what action to take . These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned It was a civil rights march against the discrimination that ppl had to endure jobs,housing ect,the british army took it upon themselves to open fire on innocent ppl and murdered them in cold blood they should all be jailed and their superiors too ,murder is murder no matter when and how it was committed It sure was an unholy mess which I can only try and formulate an opinion from what I can read up online but what I do struggle with is the notion of it being a peaceful civil rights march yet Gerald Donaghey had 4 nail bombs along with the rioting, rock throwing. Rioting, rock/missile throwing and nail bombs don't conjure up the image of peaceful marching to me. Either way, dark days which I hope are never repeated. There were no nail bombs. That was a cover invented by the military when they realised they had killed so many innocent people. Maybe so, maybe not, the Saville report said there was, I wasn't alive when this happened so I can't say for sure either way but many also not born when this occurred in 72 seem to know all the facts. Maybe they should put themselves forward as judge & jury? " There's no maybe about it. The nail bombs were proven to have been a fabrication. You just choose not to believe incontrovertible evidence because it doesn't suit your narrative. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned No-one gets charged with murder for “simply doing their job”. Can you show me the line in the job description of a soldier where it says their duties include shooting unarmed British citizens in the back? British citizens, for goodness sake, shot dead by British soldiers. And you think they were “simply doing their job”? What sort of fucking state do you think we live in?" The thing is they wouldn’t have shot at British civilians, these were Irish citizens.. Maybe that’s why so many comments here are justifying shooting young people in the back.. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This was cold bloodied murder against innocent ppl by the paras who thought they were above the law,every one of them should be prosecuted for murder and also for the ballymurphy murders and the top brass and british goverment should be prosecuted too If you are seeking to apportion blame you should address that to the March organisers . They knew that it was an illegal March but went ahead with it regardless. If you choose to attach the forces of law and order there will inevitably be consequences of such actions . The soldiers in question probably had a split second in which to decide what action to take . These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned It was a civil rights march against the discrimination that ppl had to endure jobs,housing ect,the british army took it upon themselves to open fire on innocent ppl and murdered them in cold blood they should all be jailed and their superiors too ,murder is murder no matter when and how it was committed It sure was an unholy mess which I can only try and formulate an opinion from what I can read up online but what I do struggle with is the notion of it being a peaceful civil rights march yet Gerald Donaghey had 4 nail bombs along with the rioting, rock throwing. Rioting, rock/missile throwing and nail bombs don't conjure up the image of peaceful marching to me. Either way, dark days which I hope are never repeated. There were no nail bombs. That was a cover invented by the military when they realised they had killed so many innocent people. Maybe so, maybe not, the Saville report said there was, I wasn't alive when this happened so I can't say for sure either way but many also not born when this occurred in 72 seem to know all the facts. Maybe they should put themselves forward as judge & jury? There's no maybe about it. The nail bombs were proven to have been a fabrication. You just choose not to believe incontrovertible evidence because it doesn't suit your narrative. " What narrative is that then, upholding and believing in our justice system of innocent until proven guilty? yep I agree that is my view but I'll leave you to tell me what I think so I know for sure from someone far more knowledgeable than me. I didn't know the nail bomb aspect had gone before a judge & jury to be proven as a fabrication, I can't find it online, unless we're talking Judge Rinder maybe? The Troubles has left so many dead without any justice at all, in my view if we're going to reopen old wounds such as this then fine but we also need a full root & branches investigation from top to bottom for all the killings throughout that time and round up all terrorists that were released as part of bringing peace so they can finish off their prison terms. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"There was nothing on the day to necessitate the use of lead bullets." Sorry, you are wrong there... There was a Para Officer in his Para smock crouching down using his swagger stick to wave his men forward with the cry of "Go on! Up the Para's!". And don't take what I say as any sort of support for what happened. He, his officers and his men were a disgrace, and the cover-up that followed was even more disgraceful. But whenever soldiers are used as police things like this happen. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This was cold bloodied murder against innocent ppl by the paras who thought they were above the law,every one of them should be prosecuted for murder and also for the ballymurphy murders and the top brass and british goverment should be prosecuted too If you are seeking to apportion blame you should address that to the March organisers . They knew that it was an illegal March but went ahead with it regardless. If you choose to attach the forces of law and order there will inevitably be consequences of such actions . The soldiers in question probably had a split second in which to decide what action to take . These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned It was a civil rights march against the discrimination that ppl had to endure jobs,housing ect,the british army took it upon themselves to open fire on innocent ppl and murdered them in cold blood they should all be jailed and their superiors too ,murder is murder no matter when and how it was committed It sure was an unholy mess which I can only try and formulate an opinion from what I can read up online but what I do struggle with is the notion of it being a peaceful civil rights march yet Gerald Donaghey had 4 nail bombs along with the rioting, rock throwing. Rioting, rock/missile throwing and nail bombs don't conjure up the image of peaceful marching to me. Either way, dark days which I hope are never repeated. There were no nail bombs. That was a cover invented by the military when they realised they had killed so many innocent people. Maybe so, maybe not, the Saville report said there was, I wasn't alive when this happened so I can't say for sure either way but many also not born when this occurred in 72 seem to know all the facts. Maybe they should put themselves forward as judge & jury? There's no maybe about it. The nail bombs were proven to have been a fabrication. You just choose not to believe incontrovertible evidence because it doesn't suit your narrative. What narrative is that then, upholding and believing in our justice system of innocent until proven guilty? yep I agree that is my view but I'll leave you to tell me what I think so I know for sure from someone far more knowledgeable than me. I didn't know the nail bomb aspect had gone before a judge & jury to be proven as a fabrication, I can't find it online, unless we're talking Judge Rinder maybe? The Troubles has left so many dead without any justice at all, in my view if we're going to reopen old wounds such as this then fine but we also need a full root & branches investigation from top to bottom for all the killings throughout that time and round up all terrorists that were released as part of bringing peace so they can finish off their prison terms. " The only people who object to a truth recovery mechanism is your own government. Instead they put forward the lie that the military were only responsible for 9% of the deaths. The reality is that the military were using what Kitson called "counter gangs" and the FRU to kill people with the appearance of plausible deniability. The most prolific of the loyalist death squads were getting their training, weapons and intelligence from the military. As for bloody Sunday itself, all you need to see is the video footage from the day. If you think that shooting people is a reasonable response to people throwing a few stones then I hope you never find yourself in a crowd control situation. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This was cold bloodied murder against innocent ppl by the paras who thought they were above the law,every one of them should be prosecuted for murder and also for the ballymurphy murders and the top brass and british goverment should be prosecuted too If you are seeking to apportion blame you should address that to the March organisers . They knew that it was an illegal March but went ahead with it regardless. If you choose to attach the forces of law and order there will inevitably be consequences of such actions . The soldiers in question probably had a split second in which to decide what action to take . These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned It was a civil rights march against the discrimination that ppl had to endure jobs,housing ect,the british army took it upon themselves to open fire on innocent ppl and murdered them in cold blood they should all be jailed and their superiors too ,murder is murder no matter when and how it was committed It sure was an unholy mess which I can only try and formulate an opinion from what I can read up online but what I do struggle with is the notion of it being a peaceful civil rights march yet Gerald Donaghey had 4 nail bombs along with the rioting, rock throwing. Rioting, rock/missile throwing and nail bombs don't conjure up the image of peaceful marching to me. Either way, dark days which I hope are never repeated. There were no nail bombs. That was a cover invented by the military when they realised they had killed so many innocent people. Maybe so, maybe not, the Saville report said there was, I wasn't alive when this happened so I can't say for sure either way but many also not born when this occurred in 72 seem to know all the facts. Maybe they should put themselves forward as judge & jury? There's no maybe about it. The nail bombs were proven to have been a fabrication. You just choose not to believe incontrovertible evidence because it doesn't suit your narrative. What narrative is that then, upholding and believing in our justice system of innocent until proven guilty? yep I agree that is my view but I'll leave you to tell me what I think so I know for sure from someone far more knowledgeable than me. I didn't know the nail bomb aspect had gone before a judge & jury to be proven as a fabrication, I can't find it online, unless we're talking Judge Rinder maybe? The Troubles has left so many dead without any justice at all, in my view if we're going to reopen old wounds such as this then fine but we also need a full root & branches investigation from top to bottom for all the killings throughout that time and round up all terrorists that were released as part of bringing peace so they can finish off their prison terms. " May I just point out that you don't even hold up the "innocent until proven guilty" thing for the people who were proven to be innocent by the Saville enquiry and accepted as so by your own government who apologised for the killings and the cover up years ago. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"There was nothing on the day to necessitate the use of lead bullets. Sorry, you are wrong there... There was a Para Officer in his Para smock crouching down using his swagger stick to wave his men forward with the cry of "Go on! Up the Para's!". And don't take what I say as any sort of support for what happened. He, his officers and his men were a disgrace, and the cover-up that followed was even more disgraceful. But whenever soldiers are used as police things like this happen." Pretty sure I read that one of the Slr's that was wanted by the inquiry think the Saville one was not available as it had been destroyed but it later turned up when the west side boys in Sierra Leone took the 5 squaddies hostage and the paras were sent in.. Seems it was being used against them, strange ironybut a bit suss.. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned No-one gets charged with murder for “simply doing their job”. Can you show me the line in the job description of a soldier where it says their duties include shooting unarmed British citizens in the back? British citizens, for goodness sake, shot dead by British soldiers. And you think they were “simply doing their job”? What sort of fucking state do you think we live in?" If you were under attack it is unlikely you would take such a view. In these situations you can be dead within a few seconds unless you take decisive action . | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This was cold bloodied murder against innocent ppl by the paras who thought they were above the law,every one of them should be prosecuted for murder and also for the ballymurphy murders and the top brass and british goverment should be prosecuted too If you are seeking to apportion blame you should address that to the March organisers . They knew that it was an illegal March but went ahead with it regardless. If you choose to attach the forces of law and order there will inevitably be consequences of such actions . The soldiers in question probably had a split second in which to decide what action to take . These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned It was a civil rights march against the discrimination that ppl had to endure jobs,housing ect,the british army took it upon themselves to open fire on innocent ppl and murdered them in cold blood they should all be jailed and their superiors too ,murder is murder no matter when and how it was committed It sure was an unholy mess which I can only try and formulate an opinion from what I can read up online but what I do struggle with is the notion of it being a peaceful civil rights march yet Gerald Donaghey had 4 nail bombs along with the rioting, rock throwing. Rioting, rock/missile throwing and nail bombs don't conjure up the image of peaceful marching to me. Either way, dark days which I hope are never repeated. There were no nail bombs. That was a cover invented by the military when they realised they had killed so many innocent people. Maybe so, maybe not, the Saville report said there was, I wasn't alive when this happened so I can't say for sure either way but many also not born when this occurred in 72 seem to know all the facts. Maybe they should put themselves forward as judge & jury? There's no maybe about it. The nail bombs were proven to have been a fabrication. You just choose not to believe incontrovertible evidence because it doesn't suit your narrative. What narrative is that then, upholding and believing in our justice system of innocent until proven guilty? yep I agree that is my view but I'll leave you to tell me what I think so I know for sure from someone far more knowledgeable than me. I didn't know the nail bomb aspect had gone before a judge & jury to be proven as a fabrication, I can't find it online, unless we're talking Judge Rinder maybe? The Troubles has left so many dead without any justice at all, in my view if we're going to reopen old wounds such as this then fine but we also need a full root & branches investigation from top to bottom for all the killings throughout that time and round up all terrorists that were released as part of bringing peace so they can finish off their prison terms. The only people who object to a truth recovery mechanism is your own government. Instead they put forward the lie that the military were only responsible for 9% of the deaths. The reality is that the military were using what Kitson called "counter gangs" and the FRU to kill people with the appearance of plausible deniability. The most prolific of the loyalist death squads were getting their training, weapons and intelligence from the military. As for bloody Sunday itself, all you need to see is the video footage from the day. If you think that shooting people is a reasonable response to people throwing a few stones then I hope you never find yourself in a crowd control situation. " It is difficult to see how video footage would help. Only some of the events will have been recorded. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"This was cold bloodied murder against innocent ppl by the paras who thought they were above the law,every one of them should be prosecuted for murder and also for the ballymurphy murders and the top brass and british goverment should be prosecuted too If you are seeking to apportion blame you should address that to the March organisers . They knew that it was an illegal March but went ahead with it regardless. If you choose to attach the forces of law and order there will inevitably be consequences of such actions . The soldiers in question probably had a split second in which to decide what action to take . These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned It was a civil rights march against the discrimination that ppl had to endure jobs,housing ect,the british army took it upon themselves to open fire on innocent ppl and murdered them in cold blood they should all be jailed and their superiors too ,murder is murder no matter when and how it was committed It sure was an unholy mess which I can only try and formulate an opinion from what I can read up online but what I do struggle with is the notion of it being a peaceful civil rights march yet Gerald Donaghey had 4 nail bombs along with the rioting, rock throwing. Rioting, rock/missile throwing and nail bombs don't conjure up the image of peaceful marching to me. Either way, dark days which I hope are never repeated. There were no nail bombs. That was a cover invented by the military when they realised they had killed so many innocent people. Maybe so, maybe not, the Saville report said there was, I wasn't alive when this happened so I can't say for sure either way but many also not born when this occurred in 72 seem to know all the facts. Maybe they should put themselves forward as judge & jury? There's no maybe about it. The nail bombs were proven to have been a fabrication. You just choose not to believe incontrovertible evidence because it doesn't suit your narrative. What narrative is that then, upholding and believing in our justice system of innocent until proven guilty? yep I agree that is my view but I'll leave you to tell me what I think so I know for sure from someone far more knowledgeable than me. I didn't know the nail bomb aspect had gone before a judge & jury to be proven as a fabrication, I can't find it online, unless we're talking Judge Rinder maybe? The Troubles has left so many dead without any justice at all, in my view if we're going to reopen old wounds such as this then fine but we also need a full root & branches investigation from top to bottom for all the killings throughout that time and round up all terrorists that were released as part of bringing peace so they can finish off their prison terms. The only people who object to a truth recovery mechanism is your own government. Instead they put forward the lie that the military were only responsible for 9% of the deaths. The reality is that the military were using what Kitson called "counter gangs" and the FRU to kill people with the appearance of plausible deniability. The most prolific of the loyalist death squads were getting their training, weapons and intelligence from the military. As for bloody Sunday itself, all you need to see is the video footage from the day. If you think that shooting people is a reasonable response to people throwing a few stones then I hope you never find yourself in a crowd control situation. It is difficult to see how video footage would help. Only some of the events will have been recorded. " So let me ask you this, are you condoning the shooting in the back of these unarmed civilians on this day? Just a yes/no answer is required, it’s that straight forward. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned No-one gets charged with murder for “simply doing their job”. Can you show me the line in the job description of a soldier where it says their duties include shooting unarmed British citizens in the back? British citizens, for goodness sake, shot dead by British soldiers. And you think they were “simply doing their job”? What sort of fucking state do you think we live in? If you were under attack it is unlikely you would take such a view. In these situations you can be dead within a few seconds unless you take decisive action . " They weren't under attack. A few teenagers threw stones at them. There is no situation in which killing people would be deemed as reasonable force in reaction to stone throwing. A member of the OIRA is presumed to have fired a shot but not in the vicinity of the paras but nothing was ever found apart from a damaged drainpipe on a Presbyterian church some distance away from where the killings took place. Another member of the OIRA was seen emerging from a nearby block of flats with a weapon after the killings had taken place but left without firing when he was told to fuck off by a priest. This was not reasonable force. Even David Cameron told the world it was indefensible. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned No-one gets charged with murder for “simply doing their job”. Can you show me the line in the job description of a soldier where it says their duties include shooting unarmed British citizens in the back? British citizens, for goodness sake, shot dead by British soldiers. And you think they were “simply doing their job”? What sort of fucking state do you think we live in? If you were under attack it is unlikely you would take such a view. In these situations you can be dead within a few seconds unless you take decisive action . They weren't under attack. A few teenagers threw stones at them. There is no situation in which killing people would be deemed as reasonable force in reaction to stone throwing. A member of the OIRA is presumed to have fired a shot but not in the vicinity of the paras but nothing was ever found apart from a damaged drainpipe on a Presbyterian church some distance away from where the killings took place. Another member of the OIRA was seen emerging from a nearby block of flats with a weapon after the killings had taken place but left without firing when he was told to fuck off by a priest. This was not reasonable force. Even David Cameron told the world it was indefensible. " OK, your most probably correct but the crux of my argument is by reopening "this" case do you think the whole lot of The Troubles killings should be reopened & all prisoners released early as part of the Good Friday Agreement should be made to finish their prison sentences for murdering men women & children ? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned No-one gets charged with murder for “simply doing their job”. Can you show me the line in the job description of a soldier where it says their duties include shooting unarmed British citizens in the back? British citizens, for goodness sake, shot dead by British soldiers. And you think they were “simply doing their job”? What sort of fucking state do you think we live in? If you were under attack it is unlikely you would take such a view. In these situations you can be dead within a few seconds unless you take decisive action . They weren't under attack. A few teenagers threw stones at them. There is no situation in which killing people would be deemed as reasonable force in reaction to stone throwing. A member of the OIRA is presumed to have fired a shot but not in the vicinity of the paras but nothing was ever found apart from a damaged drainpipe on a Presbyterian church some distance away from where the killings took place. Another member of the OIRA was seen emerging from a nearby block of flats with a weapon after the killings had taken place but left without firing when he was told to fuck off by a priest. This was not reasonable force. Even David Cameron told the world it was indefensible. OK, your most probably correct but the crux of my argument is by reopening "this" case do you think the whole lot of The Troubles killings should be reopened & all prisoners released early as part of the Good Friday Agreement should be made to finish their prison sentences for murdering men women & children ? " It's not reopening the case. It's never been a case at all in the past. Soldier F will never be convicted, despite his lies to both Widgery and Saville, despite him being on video shooting a man in the back of the head, despite the ballistics evidence that ties him to four deaths, all of innocent civilians, at least one of whom was running away and one of whom was the man caught on camera attempting to give medical assistance to his first victim while holding up a white handkerchief. These were Irish people, from an Irish nationalist background who were complaining about how they were being treated unfairly by the authorities and so they were "troublemakers" and so were fair game. General Ford, commander of land forces in the north said that day that this was "the best thing he had seen for quite some time" despite being told by other soldiers in Derry that it was innocent civilians who were killed. He was reported by an officer as having said "yes, this is one of the best things I've seen for some time". Even if he is convicted and sentenced to life he will serve a maximum of 2 years. Just remember that the British government have stood in the way of a truth recovery mechanism which is what is needed. It's worth remembering also that 15,000 republican prisoners have served just over 100,000 combined years in jail. Four British soldiers were convicted of murder in Ireland, one was acquitted on appeal, and they served five years each, were released and then readmitted into the British army. No other NATO member allows convicted murderers to serve in their military. It turns out that murdering Irish people must not be that big a deal. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned No-one gets charged with murder for “simply doing their job”. Can you show me the line in the job description of a soldier where it says their duties include shooting unarmed British citizens in the back? British citizens, for goodness sake, shot dead by British soldiers. And you think they were “simply doing their job”? What sort of fucking state do you think we live in? If you were under attack it is unlikely you would take such a view. In these situations you can be dead within a few seconds unless you take decisive action . They weren't under attack. A few teenagers threw stones at them. There is no situation in which killing people would be deemed as reasonable force in reaction to stone throwing. A member of the OIRA is presumed to have fired a shot but not in the vicinity of the paras but nothing was ever found apart from a damaged drainpipe on a Presbyterian church some distance away from where the killings took place. Another member of the OIRA was seen emerging from a nearby block of flats with a weapon after the killings had taken place but left without firing when he was told to fuck off by a priest. This was not reasonable force. Even David Cameron told the world it was indefensible. OK, your most probably correct but the crux of my argument is by reopening "this" case do you think the whole lot of The Troubles killings should be reopened & all prisoners released early as part of the Good Friday Agreement should be made to finish their prison sentences for murdering men women & children ? It's not reopening the case. It's never been a case at all in the past. Soldier F will never be convicted, despite his lies to both Widgery and Saville, despite him being on video shooting a man in the back of the head, despite the ballistics evidence that ties him to four deaths, all of innocent civilians, at least one of whom was running away and one of whom was the man caught on camera attempting to give medical assistance to his first victim while holding up a white handkerchief. These were Irish people, from an Irish nationalist background who were complaining about how they were being treated unfairly by the authorities and so they were "troublemakers" and so were fair game. General Ford, commander of land forces in the north said that day that this was "the best thing he had seen for quite some time" despite being told by other soldiers in Derry that it was innocent civilians who were killed. He was reported by an officer as having said "yes, this is one of the best things I've seen for some time". Even if he is convicted and sentenced to life he will serve a maximum of 2 years. Just remember that the British government have stood in the way of a truth recovery mechanism which is what is needed. It's worth remembering also that 15,000 republican prisoners have served just over 100,000 combined years in jail. Four British soldiers were convicted of murder in Ireland, one was acquitted on appeal, and they served five years each, were released and then readmitted into the British army. No other NATO member allows convicted murderers to serve in their military. It turns out that murdering Irish people must not be that big a deal. " * * * * * "God's curse on you, England, you cruel-hearted monster Your deeds they would shame all the devils in hell" . | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
" These were men who were simply doing their job on the day concerned No-one gets charged with murder for “simply doing their job”. Can you show me the line in the job description of a soldier where it says their duties include shooting unarmed British citizens in the back? British citizens, for goodness sake, shot dead by British soldiers. And you think they were “simply doing their job”? What sort of fucking state do you think we live in? If you were under attack it is unlikely you would take such a view. In these situations you can be dead within a few seconds unless you take decisive action . They weren't under attack. A few teenagers threw stones at them. There is no situation in which killing people would be deemed as reasonable force in reaction to stone throwing. A member of the OIRA is presumed to have fired a shot but not in the vicinity of the paras but nothing was ever found apart from a damaged drainpipe on a Presbyterian church some distance away from where the killings took place. Another member of the OIRA was seen emerging from a nearby block of flats with a weapon after the killings had taken place but left without firing when he was told to fuck off by a priest. This was not reasonable force. Even David Cameron told the world it was indefensible. OK, your most probably correct but the crux of my argument is by reopening "this" case do you think the whole lot of The Troubles killings should be reopened & all prisoners released early as part of the Good Friday Agreement should be made to finish their prison sentences for murdering men women & children ? It's not reopening the case. It's never been a case at all in the past. Soldier F will never be convicted, despite his lies to both Widgery and Saville, despite him being on video shooting a man in the back of the head, despite the ballistics evidence that ties him to four deaths, all of innocent civilians, at least one of whom was running away and one of whom was the man caught on camera attempting to give medical assistance to his first victim while holding up a white handkerchief. These were Irish people, from an Irish nationalist background who were complaining about how they were being treated unfairly by the authorities and so they were "troublemakers" and so were fair game. General Ford, commander of land forces in the north said that day that this was "the best thing he had seen for quite some time" despite being told by other soldiers in Derry that it was innocent civilians who were killed. He was reported by an officer as having said "yes, this is one of the best things I've seen for some time". Even if he is convicted and sentenced to life he will serve a maximum of 2 years. Just remember that the British government have stood in the way of a truth recovery mechanism which is what is needed. It's worth remembering also that 15,000 republican prisoners have served just over 100,000 combined years in jail. Four British soldiers were convicted of murder in Ireland, one was acquitted on appeal, and they served five years each, were released and then readmitted into the British army. No other NATO member allows convicted murderers to serve in their military. It turns out that murdering Irish people must not be that big a deal. * * * * * "God's curse on you, England, you cruel-hearted monster Your deeds they would shame all the devils in hell" . "  | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
". It's worth remembering also that 15,000 republican prisoners have served just over 100,000 combined years in jail. Four British soldiers were convicted of murder in Ireland, one was acquitted on appeal, and they served five years each " 5 years per Soilder 6.6 years per PIRA or equivalent Not too dissimilar I suppose Anyway, whatever happens will happen, the main thing is to avoid a repeat of this whole sorry mess. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
". It's worth remembering also that 15,000 republican prisoners have served just over 100,000 combined years in jail. Four British soldiers were convicted of murder in Ireland, one was acquitted on appeal, and they served five years each 5 years per Soilder 6.6 years per PIRA or equivalent Not too dissimilar I suppose Anyway, whatever happens will happen, the main thing is to avoid a repeat of this whole sorry mess. " Are you not even a little bit bothered by convicted murderers being allowed serve in your army? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"At the time of the troubles I was training as tank crew, 1st posting. The Maze, why would I want to be a prison guard in a place where tracked vehicles were not allowed because of politics. Unless you were there, at that time, or have read all of the prosecution documentation then everything is speculation. It is in the past, leave it there and move on! " You should try saying “it’s in the past, leave it there and move on” to the families of the murdered victims. I’m sure they’d see it your way and move on. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"At the time of the troubles I was training as tank crew, 1st posting. The Maze, why would I want to be a prison guard in a place where tracked vehicles were not allowed because of politics. Unless you were there, at that time, or have read all of the prosecution documentation then everything is speculation. It is in the past, leave it there and move on! You should try saying “it’s in the past, leave it there and move on” to the families of the murdered victims. I’m sure they’d see it your way and move on. " It seems that you are out of touch with most of the victims of the troubles in Northern Ireland. The families of police officers , prison wardens members of the UDR and building contractors who were simply murdered for under taking police work have moved on. With the GDA there is no realistic prospect of anyone being convicted for their murders . These were simply people doing a job. Many civilian also lost their lives. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
". It's worth remembering also that 15,000 republican prisoners have served just over 100,000 combined years in jail. Four British soldiers were convicted of murder in Ireland, one was acquitted on appeal, and they served five years each 5 years per Soilder 6.6 years per PIRA or equivalent Not too dissimilar I suppose Anyway, whatever happens will happen, the main thing is to avoid a repeat of this whole sorry mess. Are you not even a little bit bothered by convicted murderers being allowed serve in your army? " To be honest, I've never thought about it, never even knew about it to start with so I'll take your word for it so it's never entered my mind. I wouldn't form an opinion until I knew far far more about the whole situation which I won't be doing so on your question, I have no opinion. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"At the time of the troubles I was training as tank crew, 1st posting. The Maze, why would I want to be a prison guard in a place where tracked vehicles were not allowed because of politics. Unless you were there, at that time, or have read all of the prosecution documentation then everything is speculation. It is in the past, leave it there and move on! You should try saying “it’s in the past, leave it there and move on” to the families of the murdered victims. I’m sure they’d see it your way and move on. It seems that you are out of touch with most of the victims of the troubles in Northern Ireland. The families of police officers , prison wardens members of the UDR and building contractors who were simply murdered for under taking police work have moved on. With the GDA there is no realistic prospect of anyone being convicted for their murders . These were simply people doing a job. Many civilian also lost their lives. " Indeed, I thought the whole idea of The Good Friday Agreement was to draw a line under the whole wretched mess but it seems some cannot move on and insist on opening old wounds while many who have suffered just as much have. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"At the time of the troubles I was training as tank crew, 1st posting. The Maze, why would I want to be a prison guard in a place where tracked vehicles were not allowed because of politics. Unless you were there, at that time, or have read all of the prosecution documentation then everything is speculation. It is in the past, leave it there and move on! You should try saying “it’s in the past, leave it there and move on” to the families of the murdered victims. I’m sure they’d see it your way and move on. It seems that you are out of touch with most of the victims of the troubles in Northern Ireland. The families of police officers , prison wardens members of the UDR and building contractors who were simply murdered for under taking police work have moved on. With the GDA there is no realistic prospect of anyone being convicted for their murders . These were simply people doing a job. Many civilian also lost their lives. Indeed, I thought the whole idea of The Good Friday Agreement was to draw a line under the whole wretched mess but it seems some cannot move on and insist on opening old wounds while many who have suffered just as much have. " No, the idea of it was to just get the republican soldiers out on early release, that was stage 1.. stage 2 is get a republican majority in Stormont, in process.. stage 3, and this is just for kicks, put all so called british ‘soldiers’ into internment and have them knit tri colours and plough and star flags.. all stages to be completed by 2024.. The dumb fucks that voted for brexit even set the wheels in motion for a united ireland, that just turned out to be luck hahaha | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"At the time of the troubles I was training as tank crew, 1st posting. The Maze, why would I want to be a prison guard in a place where tracked vehicles were not allowed because of politics. Unless you were there, at that time, or have read all of the prosecution documentation then everything is speculation. It is in the past, leave it there and move on! You should try saying “it’s in the past, leave it there and move on” to the families of the murdered victims. I’m sure they’d see it your way and move on. It seems that you are out of touch with most of the victims of the troubles in Northern Ireland. The families of police officers , prison wardens members of the UDR and building contractors who were simply murdered for under taking police work have moved on. With the GDA there is no realistic prospect of anyone being convicted for their murders . These were simply people doing a job. Many civilian also lost their lives. Indeed, I thought the whole idea of The Good Friday Agreement was to draw a line under the whole wretched mess but it seems some cannot move on and insist on opening old wounds while many who have suffered just as much have. No, the idea of it was to just get the republican soldiers out on early release, that was stage 1.. stage 2 is get a republican majority in Stormont, in process.. stage 3, and this is just for kicks, put all so called british ‘soldiers’ into internment and have them knit tri colours and plough and star flags.. all stages to be completed by 2024.. The dumb fucks that voted for brexit even set the wheels in motion for a united ireland, that just turned out to be luck hahaha" OK | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
". It's worth remembering also that 15,000 republican prisoners have served just over 100,000 combined years in jail. Four British soldiers were convicted of murder in Ireland, one was acquitted on appeal, and they served five years each 5 years per Soilder 6.6 years per PIRA or equivalent Not too dissimilar I suppose Anyway, whatever happens will happen, the main thing is to avoid a repeat of this whole sorry mess. Are you not even a little bit bothered by convicted murderers being allowed serve in your army? To be honest, I've never thought about it, never even knew about it to start with so I'll take your word for it so it's never entered my mind. I wouldn't form an opinion until I knew far far more about the whole situation which I won't be doing so on your question, I have no opinion. " How much more do you need? The only soldiers convicted off murdering Irish people and sentenced to life imprisonment were allowed to rejoin the army. That should trouble you deeply. I have a sneaking suspicion that if they had murdered innocent civilians on the streets of London you, or the military, might adopt a different attitude to it. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"At the time of the troubles I was training as tank crew, 1st posting. The Maze, why would I want to be a prison guard in a place where tracked vehicles were not allowed because of politics. Unless you were there, at that time, or have read all of the prosecution documentation then everything is speculation. It is in the past, leave it there and move on! You should try saying “it’s in the past, leave it there and move on” to the families of the murdered victims. I’m sure they’d see it your way and move on. It seems that you are out of touch with most of the victims of the troubles in Northern Ireland. The families of police officers , prison wardens members of the UDR and building contractors who were simply murdered for under taking police work have moved on. With the GDA there is no realistic prospect of anyone being convicted for their murders . These were simply people doing a job. Many civilian also lost their lives. Indeed, I thought the whole idea of The Good Friday Agreement was to draw a line under the whole wretched mess but it seems some cannot move on and insist on opening old wounds while many who have suffered just as much have. " Did you say that to the Hillsborough campaigners as well? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
". It's worth remembering also that 15,000 republican prisoners have served just over 100,000 combined years in jail. Four British soldiers were convicted of murder in Ireland, one was acquitted on appeal, and they served five years each 5 years per Soilder 6.6 years per PIRA or equivalent Not too dissimilar I suppose Anyway, whatever happens will happen, the main thing is to avoid a repeat of this whole sorry mess. Are you not even a little bit bothered by convicted murderers being allowed serve in your army? To be honest, I've never thought about it, never even knew about it to start with so I'll take your word for it so it's never entered my mind. I wouldn't form an opinion until I knew far far more about the whole situation which I won't be doing so on your question, I have no opinion. How much more do you need? The only soldiers convicted off murdering Irish people and sentenced to life imprisonment were allowed to rejoin the army. That should trouble you deeply. I have a sneaking suspicion that if they had murdered innocent civilians on the streets of London you, or the military, might adopt a different attitude to it. " Look, I wasn't even born when this happened, I don't look back in history for something to get angry about, but hey, that's just me. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"At the time of the troubles I was training as tank crew, 1st posting. The Maze, why would I want to be a prison guard in a place where tracked vehicles were not allowed because of politics. Unless you were there, at that time, or have read all of the prosecution documentation then everything is speculation. It is in the past, leave it there and move on! You should try saying “it’s in the past, leave it there and move on” to the families of the murdered victims. I’m sure they’d see it your way and move on. It seems that you are out of touch with most of the victims of the troubles in Northern Ireland. The families of police officers , prison wardens members of the UDR and building contractors who were simply murdered for under taking police work have moved on. With the GDA there is no realistic prospect of anyone being convicted for their murders . These were simply people doing a job. Many civilian also lost their lives. Indeed, I thought the whole idea of The Good Friday Agreement was to draw a line under the whole wretched mess but it seems some cannot move on and insist on opening old wounds while many who have suffered just as much have. Did you say that to the Hillsborough campaigners as well? " Now you're being silly. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
". It's worth remembering also that 15,000 republican prisoners have served just over 100,000 combined years in jail. Four British soldiers were convicted of murder in Ireland, one was acquitted on appeal, and they served five years each 5 years per Soilder 6.6 years per PIRA or equivalent Not too dissimilar I suppose Anyway, whatever happens will happen, the main thing is to avoid a repeat of this whole sorry mess. Are you not even a little bit bothered by convicted murderers being allowed serve in your army? To be honest, I've never thought about it, never even knew about it to start with so I'll take your word for it so it's never entered my mind. I wouldn't form an opinion until I knew far far more about the whole situation which I won't be doing so on your question, I have no opinion. How much more do you need? The only soldiers convicted off murdering Irish people and sentenced to life imprisonment were allowed to rejoin the army. That should trouble you deeply. I have a sneaking suspicion that if they had murdered innocent civilians on the streets of London you, or the military, might adopt a different attitude to it. Look, I wasn't even born when this happened, I don't look back in history for something to get angry about, but hey, that's just me. " The three murderers who were allowed back into the army had nothing to do with bloody Sunday. They were all more recent than that. Fair enough though, if it doesn't trouble you then it doesn't trouble you. It should though. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"At the time of the troubles I was training as tank crew, 1st posting. The Maze, why would I want to be a prison guard in a place where tracked vehicles were not allowed because of politics. Unless you were there, at that time, or have read all of the prosecution documentation then everything is speculation. It is in the past, leave it there and move on! You should try saying “it’s in the past, leave it there and move on” to the families of the murdered victims. I’m sure they’d see it your way and move on. It seems that you are out of touch with most of the victims of the troubles in Northern Ireland. The families of police officers , prison wardens members of the UDR and building contractors who were simply murdered for under taking police work have moved on. With the GDA there is no realistic prospect of anyone being convicted for their murders . These were simply people doing a job. Many civilian also lost their lives. Indeed, I thought the whole idea of The Good Friday Agreement was to draw a line under the whole wretched mess but it seems some cannot move on and insist on opening old wounds while many who have suffered just as much have. Did you say that to the Hillsborough campaigners as well? Now you're being silly. " Not at all. It's a valid point and that wasn't even a case of murder. Never mind, that was England, not Ireland, even though part of Ireland is "as British as Finchley" | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The whole bloody sunday episode was wrong But after Lyra Mckee being murdered i see the image online of a Para firing up a a Derry street The millions it cost for the enquiry and the hurt it caused Then what do we have now So called republicans firing up Derry streets killing civilians Paras and New Ira whats the difference " £50.2 billion per annum . | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The excuse of they where just doing their job sounds an awful lot like the excuses the Nazis used in the nurberg trials "just following orders" I see a lot of people saying that ira/terrorists murdered innocent people too etc but the difference is bloody Sunday was a catalyst for the troubles and the support for the ira at the time. To think that the British army shot and killed civil rights activists in its own country and people defend this actions is it because they where Irish ?? Now imagine if the army was deployed to say Croydon and they opened fire on black civil rights marchers ? Or if a foreign country was to do the same thing the British government and its people would call for a regime change etc. It just stinks of hypocrisy." Spoken like someone who has never experienced being in a similair situation. It's all very well being an idealist and judging others for their mistakes.. if you've the personal experience to back it up. Comparing British soldiers to Nazis.. I've heard it all now. I'm backing out because of the mood I'm in. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The excuse of they where just doing their job sounds an awful lot like the excuses the Nazis used in the nurberg trials "just following orders" I see a lot of people saying that ira/terrorists murdered innocent people too etc but the difference is bloody Sunday was a catalyst for the troubles and the support for the ira at the time. To think that the British army shot and killed civil rights activists in its own country and people defend this actions is it because they where Irish ?? Now imagine if the army was deployed to say Croydon and they opened fire on black civil rights marchers ? Or if a foreign country was to do the same thing the British government and its people would call for a regime change etc. It just stinks of hypocrisy." None of the soldiers on the day in question for up in the morning and decided to murder people. They were simply doing a job and probably had a split second in which to decide what course of action to take . The march itself had previously being declared to be illegal and as such should not have been taking place in any event . Had the marchers chosen to obey the law non of them would be dead. If you decide to attack soldiers you can expect them to defend themselves. The IRA terrorists were simply cold blooded murderers who could not care about human life . Unlike the soldiers at Bloody Sunday who were defending themselves the IRA took it upon themselves to commit murder and bomb people without warning. A lady who was the mother of the children was murdered for simply speaking to soldiers and another farmer in Crossmaglen murdered for r reporting an arms find in his field. Other people were murdered for simply carrying out maintenance work on behalf of the police. Despite the fact that the majority of people in NI did not want a United Ireland the IRA refused to accept the democratic process and chose to murder regardless It appears some people want to 're write history. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"The whole bloody sunday episode was wrong But after Lyra Mckee being murdered i see the image online of a Para firing up a a Derry street The millions it cost for the enquiry and the hurt it caused Then what do we have now So called republicans firing up Derry streets killing civilians Paras and New Ira whats the difference " The difference is everyone else has moved on but not the same can be said of the murdering scum calling themselves the IRA | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It was murder and thats an end to it - trying to whitewash what happened by saying the march was illegal is condoning the murder of fellow human beings but, lets face it there are always people on here who are willing to ignore the truth and retell proven lies to show how self-righteous they are. The paras on the day were acting illegally and the subsequent desperate attempts to justify what happened by planting evidence was shameful and proved the lie. They disgraced themselves and their regiment on that day and they should all have been court martialled for their actions. With hindsight its easy to say the British army was not an enlightened institution at the time - it had a history of offensive actions against civilians in places like kenya, rhodesia, and South Africa to name just a few - not forgetting that there were plenty of paras who went on to work as mercenaries after completing their tours. London was the go to place for finding ex-soldiers to provide security services for dodgy regimes back then. I cannot deny that the IRA were absolute bastards, but so were the UDA and UVF and saying one side were better than the other is a waste of breath. I hope that soldier F is tried and that this will draw a line under it but for the families of those who were murdered I doubt it will ever be enough to make ip for the lies and dishonourable behaviour of the British government at the time but lets face it there’s always been heartless fuckers who send the troops in against the unarmed - remember Peterloo! Thank god for the good friday agreement and the opening of the borders as a consequence of EU membership which has given us all a peace that has allowed people to have hope and look to a safer future. " It would be interesting to know if you have ever been to Northern Ireland or have any first hand experience in which members of the security forces had to operate. What can be said with absolute certainty is that the IRA were quite happy to murder innocent people. Not one soldier on the day concerned would have got up in the morning and decided that they were going to committ murder. How does the opening of the borders come into the equation ? . They were always open and you simply drove through a customs point. In many ways the GFA was premature. The IRA were heavily defeated and had no option but to try and negotiate in order to save face . Peace would have come about anyway and we would not now be in a position where we are unable to prosecute terrorists for some horrendous crimes . | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It was murder and thats an end to it - trying to whitewash what happened by saying the march was illegal is condoning the murder of fellow human beings but, lets face it there are always people on here who are willing to ignore the truth and retell proven lies to show how self-righteous they are. The paras on the day were acting illegally and the subsequent desperate attempts to justify what happened by planting evidence was shameful and proved the lie. They disgraced themselves and their regiment on that day and they should all have been court martialled for their actions. With hindsight its easy to say the British army was not an enlightened institution at the time - it had a history of offensive actions against civilians in places like kenya, rhodesia, and South Africa to name just a few - not forgetting that there were plenty of paras who went on to work as mercenaries after completing their tours. London was the go to place for finding ex-soldiers to provide security services for dodgy regimes back then. I cannot deny that the IRA were absolute bastards, but so were the UDA and UVF and saying one side were better than the other is a waste of breath. I hope that soldier F is tried and that this will draw a line under it but for the families of those who were murdered I doubt it will ever be enough to make ip for the lies and dishonourable behaviour of the British government at the time but lets face it there’s always been heartless fuckers who send the troops in against the unarmed - remember Peterloo! Thank god for the good friday agreement and the opening of the borders as a consequence of EU membership which has given us all a peace that has allowed people to have hope and look to a safer future. It would be interesting to know if you have ever been to Northern Ireland or have any first hand experience in which members of the security forces had to operate. What can be said with absolute certainty is that the IRA were quite happy to murder innocent people. Not one soldier on the day concerned would have got up in the morning and decided that they were going to committ murder. How does the opening of the borders come into the equation ? . They were always open and you simply drove through a customs point. In many ways the GFA was premature. The IRA were heavily defeated and had no option but to try and negotiate in order to save face . Peace would have come about anyway and we would not now be in a position where we are unable to prosecute terrorists for some horrendous crimes . " Ah....classic base tactics....the method of trying to undermine my arguments by suggesting I am unqualified to comment because of my lack of experience in the field. Taken from a humanist viewpoint, and looking at all the evidence available there are no contributing factors that would significantly alter the fact that unarmed people were murdered in cold blood and the killers were protected by the government of the day. I have friends on both sides of the border and their ability to travel freely in their own land without having guns trained on them from watchtowers as their cars and car contents are emptied all over the road is a significant improvement on daily life. Perhaps you have not experienced being questioned in that way so don’t understand the anger and humiliation it provokes? As to your questions about whether I have experienced any of the above - I have been to NI and Eire and I have family in the military but that has no bearing on my viewpoint. I trust that answers you adequately. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It was murder and thats an end to it - trying to whitewash what happened by saying the march was illegal is condoning the murder of fellow human beings but, lets face it there are always people on here who are willing to ignore the truth and retell proven lies to show how self-righteous they are. The paras on the day were acting illegally and the subsequent desperate attempts to justify what happened by planting evidence was shameful and proved the lie. They disgraced themselves and their regiment on that day and they should all have been court martialled for their actions. With hindsight its easy to say the British army was not an enlightened institution at the time - it had a history of offensive actions against civilians in places like kenya, rhodesia, and South Africa to name just a few - not forgetting that there were plenty of paras who went on to work as mercenaries after completing their tours. London was the go to place for finding ex-soldiers to provide security services for dodgy regimes back then. I cannot deny that the IRA were absolute bastards, but so were the UDA and UVF and saying one side were better than the other is a waste of breath. I hope that soldier F is tried and that this will draw a line under it but for the families of those who were murdered I doubt it will ever be enough to make ip for the lies and dishonourable behaviour of the British government at the time but lets face it there’s always been heartless fuckers who send the troops in against the unarmed - remember Peterloo! Thank god for the good friday agreement and the opening of the borders as a consequence of EU membership which has given us all a peace that has allowed people to have hope and look to a safer future. It would be interesting to know if you have ever been to Northern Ireland or have any first hand experience in which members of the security forces had to operate. What can be said with absolute certainty is that the IRA were quite happy to murder innocent people. Not one soldier on the day concerned would have got up in the morning and decided that they were going to committ murder. How does the opening of the borders come into the equation ? . They were always open and you simply drove through a customs point. In many ways the GFA was premature. The IRA were heavily defeated and had no option but to try and negotiate in order to save face . Peace would have come about anyway and we would not now be in a position where we are unable to prosecute terrorists for some horrendous crimes . Ah....classic base tactics....the method of trying to undermine my arguments by suggesting I am unqualified to comment because of my lack of experience in the field. Taken from a humanist viewpoint, and looking at all the evidence available there are no contributing factors that would significantly alter the fact that unarmed people were murdered in cold blood and the killers were protected by the government of the day. I have friends on both sides of the border and their ability to travel freely in their own land without having guns trained on them from watchtowers as their cars and car contents are emptied all over the road is a significant improvement on daily life. Perhaps you have not experienced being questioned in that way so don’t understand the anger and humiliation it provokes? As to your questions about whether I have experienced any of the above - I have been to NI and Eire and I have family in the military but that has no bearing on my viewpoint. I trust that answers you adequately. " I'm a Humanist. I'm Left Leaning, always have been, always will be. I'm also ex-Forces. Odd job choice right? Maybe not for a naive boy with zero life experience. Who believes the hype, fake history and nationalism we spew out en masse in this country. I've found myself in a similair situation and found it very hard to speak up, but did find the courage to refuse a direct order to kill. If you've no experience of crowd control, mob mentality, working in high tension environment like the police or armed forces.. or were there on the day itself, then you've no business judging this man as absolutely as many of you are. My heart goes out to the survivors of anyone killed in any conflict and I'd like to see an end to all war. I massively despise British Foreign policy and feel it's many of these disgusting decisions that cause situations like this to arise in the first place. It's the so called politicians that deserve a place in the dock. On all sides. Not the young men and women who volunteer to put themselves in harms way, in the vain hope we never risk their lives unessercarily. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It was murder and thats an end to it - trying to whitewash what happened by saying the march was illegal is condoning the murder of fellow human beings but, lets face it there are always people on here who are willing to ignore the truth and retell proven lies to show how self-righteous they are. The paras on the day were acting illegally and the subsequent desperate attempts to justify what happened by planting evidence was shameful and proved the lie. They disgraced themselves and their regiment on that day and they should all have been court martialled for their actions. With hindsight its easy to say the British army was not an enlightened institution at the time - it had a history of offensive actions against civilians in places like kenya, rhodesia, and South Africa to name just a few - not forgetting that there were plenty of paras who went on to work as mercenaries after completing their tours. London was the go to place for finding ex-soldiers to provide security services for dodgy regimes back then. I cannot deny that the IRA were absolute bastards, but so were the UDA and UVF and saying one side were better than the other is a waste of breath. I hope that soldier F is tried and that this will draw a line under it but for the families of those who were murdered I doubt it will ever be enough to make ip for the lies and dishonourable behaviour of the British government at the time but lets face it there’s always been heartless fuckers who send the troops in against the unarmed - remember Peterloo! Thank god for the good friday agreement and the opening of the borders as a consequence of EU membership which has given us all a peace that has allowed people to have hope and look to a safer future. It would be interesting to know if you have ever been to Northern Ireland or have any first hand experience in which members of the security forces had to operate. What can be said with absolute certainty is that the IRA were quite happy to murder innocent people. Not one soldier on the day concerned would have got up in the morning and decided that they were going to committ murder. How does the opening of the borders come into the equation ? . They were always open and you simply drove through a customs point. In many ways the GFA was premature. The IRA were heavily defeated and had no option but to try and negotiate in order to save face . Peace would have come about anyway and we would not now be in a position where we are unable to prosecute terrorists for some horrendous crimes . Ah....classic base tactics....the method of trying to undermine my arguments by suggesting I am unqualified to comment because of my lack of experience in the field. Taken from a humanist viewpoint, and looking at all the evidence available there are no contributing factors that would significantly alter the fact that unarmed people were murdered in cold blood and the killers were protected by the government of the day. I have friends on both sides of the border and their ability to travel freely in their own land without having guns trained on them from watchtowers as their cars and car contents are emptied all over the road is a significant improvement on daily life. Perhaps you have not experienced being questioned in that way so don’t understand the anger and humiliation it provokes? As to your questions about whether I have experienced any of the above - I have been to NI and Eire and I have family in the military but that has no bearing on my viewpoint. I trust that answers you adequately. I'm a Humanist. I'm Left Leaning, always have been, always will be. I'm also ex-Forces. Odd job choice right? Maybe not for a naive boy with zero life experience. Who believes the hype, fake history and nationalism we spew out en masse in this country. I've found myself in a similair situation and found it very hard to speak up, but did find the courage to refuse a direct order to kill. If you've no experience of crowd control, mob mentality, working in high tension environment like the police or armed forces.. or were there on the day itself, then you've no business judging this man as absolutely as many of you are. My heart goes out to the survivors of anyone killed in any conflict and I'd like to see an end to all war. I massively despise British Foreign policy and feel it's many of these disgusting decisions that cause situations like this to arise in the first place. It's the so called politicians that deserve a place in the dock. On all sides. Not the young men and women who volunteer to put themselves in harms way, in the vain hope we never risk their lives unessercarily." Trouble with this particular soldier he was one of a group 1 para who had done exactly the same thing only a few months earlier in Ballymurphy. All you need to do is type Killymurphy street into google & up will pop the training area that was designed specifically to part of ballymurphy. This wasnt a 1 off situation. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It was murder and thats an end to it - trying to whitewash what happened by saying the march was illegal is condoning the murder of fellow human beings but, lets face it there are always people on here who are willing to ignore the truth and retell proven lies to show how self-righteous they are. The paras on the day were acting illegally and the subsequent desperate attempts to justify what happened by planting evidence was shameful and proved the lie. They disgraced themselves and their regiment on that day and they should all have been court martialled for their actions. With hindsight its easy to say the British army was not an enlightened institution at the time - it had a history of offensive actions against civilians in places like kenya, rhodesia, and South Africa to name just a few - not forgetting that there were plenty of paras who went on to work as mercenaries after completing their tours. London was the go to place for finding ex-soldiers to provide security services for dodgy regimes back then. I cannot deny that the IRA were absolute bastards, but so were the UDA and UVF and saying one side were better than the other is a waste of breath. I hope that soldier F is tried and that this will draw a line under it but for the families of those who were murdered I doubt it will ever be enough to make ip for the lies and dishonourable behaviour of the British government at the time but lets face it there’s always been heartless fuckers who send the troops in against the unarmed - remember Peterloo! Thank god for the good friday agreement and the opening of the borders as a consequence of EU membership which has given us all a peace that has allowed people to have hope and look to a safer future. It would be interesting to know if you have ever been to Northern Ireland or have any first hand experience in which members of the security forces had to operate. What can be said with absolute certainty is that the IRA were quite happy to murder innocent people. Not one soldier on the day concerned would have got up in the morning and decided that they were going to committ murder. How does the opening of the borders come into the equation ? . They were always open and you simply drove through a customs point. In many ways the GFA was premature. The IRA were heavily defeated and had no option but to try and negotiate in order to save face . Peace would have come about anyway and we would not now be in a position where we are unable to prosecute terrorists for some horrendous crimes . Ah....classic base tactics....the method of trying to undermine my arguments by suggesting I am unqualified to comment because of my lack of experience in the field. Taken from a humanist viewpoint, and looking at all the evidence available there are no contributing factors that would significantly alter the fact that unarmed people were murdered in cold blood and the killers were protected by the government of the day. I have friends on both sides of the border and their ability to travel freely in their own land without having guns trained on them from watchtowers as their cars and car contents are emptied all over the road is a significant improvement on daily life. Perhaps you have not experienced being questioned in that way so don’t understand the anger and humiliation it provokes? As to your questions about whether I have experienced any of the above - I have been to NI and Eire and I have family in the military but that has no bearing on my viewpoint. I trust that answers you adequately. I'm a Humanist. I'm Left Leaning, always have been, always will be. I'm also ex-Forces. Odd job choice right? Maybe not for a naive boy with zero life experience. Who believes the hype, fake history and nationalism we spew out en masse in this country. I've found myself in a similair situation and found it very hard to speak up, but did find the courage to refuse a direct order to kill. If you've no experience of crowd control, mob mentality, working in high tension environment like the police or armed forces.. or were there on the day itself, then you've no business judging this man as absolutely as many of you are. My heart goes out to the survivors of anyone killed in any conflict and I'd like to see an end to all war. I massively despise British Foreign policy and feel it's many of these disgusting decisions that cause situations like this to arise in the first place. It's the so called politicians that deserve a place in the dock. On all sides. Not the young men and women who volunteer to put themselves in harms way, in the vain hope we never risk their lives unessercarily. Trouble with this particular soldier he was one of a group 1 para who had done exactly the same thing only a few months earlier in Ballymurphy. All you need to do is type Killymurphy street into google & up will pop the training area that was designed specifically to part of ballymurphy. This wasnt a 1 off situation." Which would suggest more than one person be punished. Which would suggest it was organised, tactical violence. Which suggests SNCO and Officer involvement at Squadron level. Which suggests much higher officers involved gave specific orders. Yet so many here branding a naive, young lad a murderer for doing what they'd brainwashed/peerpressured him to do. Mitigating circumstances. By all means find him guilty of pulling the trigger, but he's a mere cog in the machine that kills people. Out of control rioters plus military brutality does not make British soldiers Nazis. It makes a scared son-of-a-bitch following orders. Without fair time and circumstance, education and confidence to make such an important call at such a critical time. So many guilty people in all this. Yet one man paying the price for everyone else's sins.. guilty or not, that's wrong. What our society is based on.. totally and utterly wrong. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It was murder and thats an end to it - trying to whitewash what happened by saying the march was illegal is condoning the murder of fellow human beings but, lets face it there are always people on here who are willing to ignore the truth and retell proven lies to show how self-righteous they are. The paras on the day were acting illegally and the subsequent desperate attempts to justify what happened by planting evidence was shameful and proved the lie. They disgraced themselves and their regiment on that day and they should all have been court martialled for their actions. With hindsight its easy to say the British army was not an enlightened institution at the time - it had a history of offensive actions against civilians in places like kenya, rhodesia, and South Africa to name just a few - not forgetting that there were plenty of paras who went on to work as mercenaries after completing their tours. London was the go to place for finding ex-soldiers to provide security services for dodgy regimes back then. I cannot deny that the IRA were absolute bastards, but so were the UDA and UVF and saying one side were better than the other is a waste of breath. I hope that soldier F is tried and that this will draw a line under it but for the families of those who were murdered I doubt it will ever be enough to make ip for the lies and dishonourable behaviour of the British government at the time but lets face it there’s always been heartless fuckers who send the troops in against the unarmed - remember Peterloo! Thank god for the good friday agreement and the opening of the borders as a consequence of EU membership which has given us all a peace that has allowed people to have hope and look to a safer future. It would be interesting to know if you have ever been to Northern Ireland or have any first hand experience in which members of the security forces had to operate. What can be said with absolute certainty is that the IRA were quite happy to murder innocent people. Not one soldier on the day concerned would have got up in the morning and decided that they were going to committ murder. How does the opening of the borders come into the equation ? . They were always open and you simply drove through a customs point. In many ways the GFA was premature. The IRA were heavily defeated and had no option but to try and negotiate in order to save face . Peace would have come about anyway and we would not now be in a position where we are unable to prosecute terrorists for some horrendous crimes . Ah....classic base tactics....the method of trying to undermine my arguments by suggesting I am unqualified to comment because of my lack of experience in the field. Taken from a humanist viewpoint, and looking at all the evidence available there are no contributing factors that would significantly alter the fact that unarmed people were murdered in cold blood and the killers were protected by the government of the day. I have friends on both sides of the border and their ability to travel freely in their own land without having guns trained on them from watchtowers as their cars and car contents are emptied all over the road is a significant improvement on daily life. Perhaps you have not experienced being questioned in that way so don’t understand the anger and humiliation it provokes? As to your questions about whether I have experienced any of the above - I have been to NI and Eire and I have family in the military but that has no bearing on my viewpoint. I trust that answers you adequately. I'm a Humanist. I'm Left Leaning, always have been, always will be. I'm also ex-Forces. Odd job choice right? Maybe not for a naive boy with zero life experience. Who believes the hype, fake history and nationalism we spew out en masse in this country. I've found myself in a similair situation and found it very hard to speak up, but did find the courage to refuse a direct order to kill. If you've no experience of crowd control, mob mentality, working in high tension environment like the police or armed forces.. or were there on the day itself, then you've no business judging this man as absolutely as many of you are. My heart goes out to the survivors of anyone killed in any conflict and I'd like to see an end to all war. I massively despise British Foreign policy and feel it's many of these disgusting decisions that cause situations like this to arise in the first place. It's the so called politicians that deserve a place in the dock. On all sides. Not the young men and women who volunteer to put themselves in harms way, in the vain hope we never risk their lives unessercarily. Trouble with this particular soldier he was one of a group 1 para who had done exactly the same thing only a few months earlier in Ballymurphy. All you need to do is type Killymurphy street into google & up will pop the training area that was designed specifically to part of ballymurphy. This wasnt a 1 off situation. Which would suggest more than one person be punished. Which would suggest it was organised, tactical violence. Which suggests SNCO and Officer involvement at Squadron level. Which suggests much higher officers involved gave specific orders. Yet so many here branding a naive, young lad a murderer for doing what they'd brainwashed/peerpressured him to do. Mitigating circumstances. By all means find him guilty of pulling the trigger, but he's a mere cog in the machine that kills people. Out of control rioters plus military brutality does not make British soldiers Nazis. It makes a scared son-of-a-bitch following orders. Without fair time and circumstance, education and confidence to make such an important call at such a critical time. So many guilty people in all this. Yet one man paying the price for everyone else's sins.. guilty or not, that's wrong. What our society is based on.. totally and utterly wrong. " Soldier F was not a young lad. Plenty would need to be prosecuted for it but most are already dead or senile. Regardless the fella isnt going to do jail time If he does.hell be out within 6 weeks Its for show & no more. Trying to show a caring heart at uk govt level | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It was murder and thats an end to it - trying to whitewash what happened by saying the march was illegal is condoning the murder of fellow human beings but, lets face it there are always people on here who are willing to ignore the truth and retell proven lies to show how self-righteous they are. The paras on the day were acting illegally and the subsequent desperate attempts to justify what happened by planting evidence was shameful and proved the lie. They disgraced themselves and their regiment on that day and they should all have been court martialled for their actions. With hindsight its easy to say the British army was not an enlightened institution at the time - it had a history of offensive actions against civilians in places like kenya, rhodesia, and South Africa to name just a few - not forgetting that there were plenty of paras who went on to work as mercenaries after completing their tours. London was the go to place for finding ex-soldiers to provide security services for dodgy regimes back then. I cannot deny that the IRA were absolute bastards, but so were the UDA and UVF and saying one side were better than the other is a waste of breath. I hope that soldier F is tried and that this will draw a line under it but for the families of those who were murdered I doubt it will ever be enough to make ip for the lies and dishonourable behaviour of the British government at the time but lets face it there’s always been heartless fuckers who send the troops in against the unarmed - remember Peterloo! Thank god for the good friday agreement and the opening of the borders as a consequence of EU membership which has given us all a peace that has allowed people to have hope and look to a safer future. It would be interesting to know if you have ever been to Northern Ireland or have any first hand experience in which members of the security forces had to operate. What can be said with absolute certainty is that the IRA were quite happy to murder innocent people. Not one soldier on the day concerned would have got up in the morning and decided that they were going to committ murder. How does the opening of the borders come into the equation ? . They were always open and you simply drove through a customs point. In many ways the GFA was premature. The IRA were heavily defeated and had no option but to try and negotiate in order to save face . Peace would have come about anyway and we would not now be in a position where we are unable to prosecute terrorists for some horrendous crimes . Ah....classic base tactics....the method of trying to undermine my arguments by suggesting I am unqualified to comment because of my lack of experience in the field. Taken from a humanist viewpoint, and looking at all the evidence available there are no contributing factors that would significantly alter the fact that unarmed people were murdered in cold blood and the killers were protected by the government of the day. I have friends on both sides of the border and their ability to travel freely in their own land without having guns trained on them from watchtowers as their cars and car contents are emptied all over the road is a significant improvement on daily life. Perhaps you have not experienced being questioned in that way so don’t understand the anger and humiliation it provokes? As to your questions about whether I have experienced any of the above - I have been to NI and Eire and I have family in the military but that has no bearing on my viewpoint. I trust that answers you adequately. I'm a Humanist. I'm Left Leaning, always have been, always will be. I'm also ex-Forces. Odd job choice right? Maybe not for a naive boy with zero life experience. Who believes the hype, fake history and nationalism we spew out en masse in this country. I've found myself in a similair situation and found it very hard to speak up, but did find the courage to refuse a direct order to kill. If you've no experience of crowd control, mob mentality, working in high tension environment like the police or armed forces.. or were there on the day itself, then you've no business judging this man as absolutely as many of you are. My heart goes out to the survivors of anyone killed in any conflict and I'd like to see an end to all war. I massively despise British Foreign policy and feel it's many of these disgusting decisions that cause situations like this to arise in the first place. It's the so called politicians that deserve a place in the dock. On all sides. Not the young men and women who volunteer to put themselves in harms way, in the vain hope we never risk their lives unessercarily. Trouble with this particular soldier he was one of a group 1 para who had done exactly the same thing only a few months earlier in Ballymurphy. All you need to do is type Killymurphy street into google & up will pop the training area that was designed specifically to part of ballymurphy. This wasnt a 1 off situation. Which would suggest more than one person be punished. Which would suggest it was organised, tactical violence. Which suggests SNCO and Officer involvement at Squadron level. Which suggests much higher officers involved gave specific orders. Yet so many here branding a naive, young lad a murderer for doing what they'd brainwashed/peerpressured him to do. Mitigating circumstances. By all means find him guilty of pulling the trigger, but he's a mere cog in the machine that kills people. Out of control rioters plus military brutality does not make British soldiers Nazis. It makes a scared son-of-a-bitch following orders. Without fair time and circumstance, education and confidence to make such an important call at such a critical time. So many guilty people in all this. Yet one man paying the price for everyone else's sins.. guilty or not, that's wrong. What our society is based on.. totally and utterly wrong. Soldier F was not a young lad. Plenty would need to be prosecuted for it but most are already dead or senile. Regardless the fella isnt going to do jail time If he does.hell be out within 6 weeks Its for show & no more. Trying to show a caring heart at uk govt level" IF all that is true.. doesn't it make a mockery of the whole thing? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It was murder and thats an end to it - trying to whitewash what happened by saying the march was illegal is condoning the murder of fellow human beings but, lets face it there are always people on here who are willing to ignore the truth and retell proven lies to show how self-righteous they are. The paras on the day were acting illegally and the subsequent desperate attempts to justify what happened by planting evidence was shameful and proved the lie. They disgraced themselves and their regiment on that day and they should all have been court martialled for their actions. With hindsight its easy to say the British army was not an enlightened institution at the time - it had a history of offensive actions against civilians in places like kenya, rhodesia, and South Africa to name just a few - not forgetting that there were plenty of paras who went on to work as mercenaries after completing their tours. London was the go to place for finding ex-soldiers to provide security services for dodgy regimes back then. I cannot deny that the IRA were absolute bastards, but so were the UDA and UVF and saying one side were better than the other is a waste of breath. I hope that soldier F is tried and that this will draw a line under it but for the families of those who were murdered I doubt it will ever be enough to make ip for the lies and dishonourable behaviour of the British government at the time but lets face it there’s always been heartless fuckers who send the troops in against the unarmed - remember Peterloo! Thank god for the good friday agreement and the opening of the borders as a consequence of EU membership which has given us all a peace that has allowed people to have hope and look to a safer future. It would be interesting to know if you have ever been to Northern Ireland or have any first hand experience in which members of the security forces had to operate. What can be said with absolute certainty is that the IRA were quite happy to murder innocent people. Not one soldier on the day concerned would have got up in the morning and decided that they were going to committ murder. How does the opening of the borders come into the equation ? . They were always open and you simply drove through a customs point. In many ways the GFA was premature. The IRA were heavily defeated and had no option but to try and negotiate in order to save face . Peace would have come about anyway and we would not now be in a position where we are unable to prosecute terrorists for some horrendous crimes . Ah....classic base tactics....the method of trying to undermine my arguments by suggesting I am unqualified to comment because of my lack of experience in the field. Taken from a humanist viewpoint, and looking at all the evidence available there are no contributing factors that would significantly alter the fact that unarmed people were murdered in cold blood and the killers were protected by the government of the day. I have friends on both sides of the border and their ability to travel freely in their own land without having guns trained on them from watchtowers as their cars and car contents are emptied all over the road is a significant improvement on daily life. Perhaps you have not experienced being questioned in that way so don’t understand the anger and humiliation it provokes? As to your questions about whether I have experienced any of the above - I have been to NI and Eire and I have family in the military but that has no bearing on my viewpoint. I trust that answers you adequately. I'm a Humanist. I'm Left Leaning, always have been, always will be. I'm also ex-Forces. Odd job choice right? Maybe not for a naive boy with zero life experience. Who believes the hype, fake history and nationalism we spew out en masse in this country. I've found myself in a similair situation and found it very hard to speak up, but did find the courage to refuse a direct order to kill. If you've no experience of crowd control, mob mentality, working in high tension environment like the police or armed forces.. or were there on the day itself, then you've no business judging this man as absolutely as many of you are. My heart goes out to the survivors of anyone killed in any conflict and I'd like to see an end to all war. I massively despise British Foreign policy and feel it's many of these disgusting decisions that cause situations like this to arise in the first place. It's the so called politicians that deserve a place in the dock. On all sides. Not the young men and women who volunteer to put themselves in harms way, in the vain hope we never risk their lives unessercarily. Trouble with this particular soldier he was one of a group 1 para who had done exactly the same thing only a few months earlier in Ballymurphy. All you need to do is type Killymurphy street into google & up will pop the training area that was designed specifically to part of ballymurphy. This wasnt a 1 off situation. Which would suggest more than one person be punished. Which would suggest it was organised, tactical violence. Which suggests SNCO and Officer involvement at Squadron level. Which suggests much higher officers involved gave specific orders. Yet so many here branding a naive, young lad a murderer for doing what they'd brainwashed/peerpressured him to do. Mitigating circumstances. By all means find him guilty of pulling the trigger, but he's a mere cog in the machine that kills people. Out of control rioters plus military brutality does not make British soldiers Nazis. It makes a scared son-of-a-bitch following orders. Without fair time and circumstance, education and confidence to make such an important call at such a critical time. So many guilty people in all this. Yet one man paying the price for everyone else's sins.. guilty or not, that's wrong. What our society is based on.. totally and utterly wrong. Soldier F was not a young lad. Plenty would need to be prosecuted for it but most are already dead or senile. Regardless the fella isnt going to do jail time If he does.hell be out within 6 weeks Its for show & no more. Trying to show a caring heart at uk govt level IF all that is true.. doesn't it make a mockery of the whole thing?" No waiting Forty-Seven years to do it is the Mockery. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It was murder and thats an end to it - trying to whitewash what happened by saying the march was illegal is condoning the murder of fellow human beings but, lets face it there are always people on here who are willing to ignore the truth and retell proven lies to show how self-righteous they are. The paras on the day were acting illegally and the subsequent desperate attempts to justify what happened by planting evidence was shameful and proved the lie. They disgraced themselves and their regiment on that day and they should all have been court martialled for their actions. With hindsight its easy to say the British army was not an enlightened institution at the time - it had a history of offensive actions against civilians in places like kenya, rhodesia, and South Africa to name just a few - not forgetting that there were plenty of paras who went on to work as mercenaries after completing their tours. London was the go to place for finding ex-soldiers to provide security services for dodgy regimes back then. I cannot deny that the IRA were absolute bastards, but so were the UDA and UVF and saying one side were better than the other is a waste of breath. I hope that soldier F is tried and that this will draw a line under it but for the families of those who were murdered I doubt it will ever be enough to make ip for the lies and dishonourable behaviour of the British government at the time but lets face it there’s always been heartless fuckers who send the troops in against the unarmed - remember Peterloo! Thank god for the good friday agreement and the opening of the borders as a consequence of EU membership which has given us all a peace that has allowed people to have hope and look to a safer future. It would be interesting to know if you have ever been to Northern Ireland or have any first hand experience in which members of the security forces had to operate. What can be said with absolute certainty is that the IRA were quite happy to murder innocent people. Not one soldier on the day concerned would have got up in the morning and decided that they were going to committ murder. How does the opening of the borders come into the equation ? . They were always open and you simply drove through a customs point. In many ways the GFA was premature. The IRA were heavily defeated and had no option but to try and negotiate in order to save face . Peace would have come about anyway and we would not now be in a position where we are unable to prosecute terrorists for some horrendous crimes . Ah....classic base tactics....the method of trying to undermine my arguments by suggesting I am unqualified to comment because of my lack of experience in the field. Taken from a humanist viewpoint, and looking at all the evidence available there are no contributing factors that would significantly alter the fact that unarmed people were murdered in cold blood and the killers were protected by the government of the day. I have friends on both sides of the border and their ability to travel freely in their own land without having guns trained on them from watchtowers as their cars and car contents are emptied all over the road is a significant improvement on daily life. Perhaps you have not experienced being questioned in that way so don’t understand the anger and humiliation it provokes? As to your questions about whether I have experienced any of the above - I have been to NI and Eire and I have family in the military but that has no bearing on my viewpoint. I trust that answers you adequately. I'm a Humanist. I'm Left Leaning, always have been, always will be. I'm also ex-Forces. Odd job choice right? Maybe not for a naive boy with zero life experience. Who believes the hype, fake history and nationalism we spew out en masse in this country. I've found myself in a similair situation and found it very hard to speak up, but did find the courage to refuse a direct order to kill. If you've no experience of crowd control, mob mentality, working in high tension environment like the police or armed forces.. or were there on the day itself, then you've no business judging this man as absolutely as many of you are. My heart goes out to the survivors of anyone killed in any conflict and I'd like to see an end to all war. I massively despise British Foreign policy and feel it's many of these disgusting decisions that cause situations like this to arise in the first place. It's the so called politicians that deserve a place in the dock. On all sides. Not the young men and women who volunteer to put themselves in harms way, in the vain hope we never risk their lives unessercarily. Trouble with this particular soldier he was one of a group 1 para who had done exactly the same thing only a few months earlier in Ballymurphy. All you need to do is type Killymurphy street into google & up will pop the training area that was designed specifically to part of ballymurphy. This wasnt a 1 off situation. Which would suggest more than one person be punished. Which would suggest it was organised, tactical violence. Which suggests SNCO and Officer involvement at Squadron level. Which suggests much higher officers involved gave specific orders. Yet so many here branding a naive, young lad a murderer for doing what they'd brainwashed/peerpressured him to do. Mitigating circumstances. By all means find him guilty of pulling the trigger, but he's a mere cog in the machine that kills people. Out of control rioters plus military brutality does not make British soldiers Nazis. It makes a scared son-of-a-bitch following orders. Without fair time and circumstance, education and confidence to make such an important call at such a critical time. So many guilty people in all this. Yet one man paying the price for everyone else's sins.. guilty or not, that's wrong. What our society is based on.. totally and utterly wrong. Soldier F was not a young lad. Plenty would need to be prosecuted for it but most are already dead or senile. Regardless the fella isnt going to do jail time If he does.hell be out within 6 weeks Its for show & no more. Trying to show a caring heart at uk govt level IF all that is true.. doesn't it make a mockery of the whole thing? No waiting Forty-Seven years to do it is the Mockery." True. But if it were a mockery still.. would you be feel better though? Surely real truth for ALL, real justice for ALL.. Is better than a pantomime performance? | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It was murder and thats an end to it - trying to whitewash what happened by saying the march was illegal is condoning the murder of fellow human beings but, lets face it there are always people on here who are willing to ignore the truth and retell proven lies to show how self-righteous they are. The paras on the day were acting illegally and the subsequent desperate attempts to justify what happened by planting evidence was shameful and proved the lie. They disgraced themselves and their regiment on that day and they should all have been court martialled for their actions. With hindsight its easy to say the British army was not an enlightened institution at the time - it had a history of offensive actions against civilians in places like kenya, rhodesia, and South Africa to name just a few - not forgetting that there were plenty of paras who went on to work as mercenaries after completing their tours. London was the go to place for finding ex-soldiers to provide security services for dodgy regimes back then. I cannot deny that the IRA were absolute bastards, but so were the UDA and UVF and saying one side were better than the other is a waste of breath. I hope that soldier F is tried and that this will draw a line under it but for the families of those who were murdered I doubt it will ever be enough to make ip for the lies and dishonourable behaviour of the British government at the time but lets face it there’s always been heartless fuckers who send the troops in against the unarmed - remember Peterloo! Thank god for the good friday agreement and the opening of the borders as a consequence of EU membership which has given us all a peace that has allowed people to have hope and look to a safer future. It would be interesting to know if you have ever been to Northern Ireland or have any first hand experience in which members of the security forces had to operate. What can be said with absolute certainty is that the IRA were quite happy to murder innocent people. Not one soldier on the day concerned would have got up in the morning and decided that they were going to committ murder. How does the opening of the borders come into the equation ? . They were always open and you simply drove through a customs point. In many ways the GFA was premature. The IRA were heavily defeated and had no option but to try and negotiate in order to save face . Peace would have come about anyway and we would not now be in a position where we are unable to prosecute terrorists for some horrendous crimes . Ah....classic base tactics....the method of trying to undermine my arguments by suggesting I am unqualified to comment because of my lack of experience in the field. Taken from a humanist viewpoint, and looking at all the evidence available there are no contributing factors that would significantly alter the fact that unarmed people were murdered in cold blood and the killers were protected by the government of the day. I have friends on both sides of the border and their ability to travel freely in their own land without having guns trained on them from watchtowers as their cars and car contents are emptied all over the road is a significant improvement on daily life. Perhaps you have not experienced being questioned in that way so don’t understand the anger and humiliation it provokes? As to your questions about whether I have experienced any of the above - I have been to NI and Eire and I have family in the military but that has no bearing on my viewpoint. I trust that answers you adequately. I'm a Humanist. I'm Left Leaning, always have been, always will be. I'm also ex-Forces. Odd job choice right? Maybe not for a naive boy with zero life experience. Who believes the hype, fake history and nationalism we spew out en masse in this country. I've found myself in a similair situation and found it very hard to speak up, but did find the courage to refuse a direct order to kill. If you've no experience of crowd control, mob mentality, working in high tension environment like the police or armed forces.. or were there on the day itself, then you've no business judging this man as absolutely as many of you are. My heart goes out to the survivors of anyone killed in any conflict and I'd like to see an end to all war. I massively despise British Foreign policy and feel it's many of these disgusting decisions that cause situations like this to arise in the first place. It's the so called politicians that deserve a place in the dock. On all sides. Not the young men and women who volunteer to put themselves in harms way, in the vain hope we never risk their lives unessercarily. Trouble with this particular soldier he was one of a group 1 para who had done exactly the same thing only a few months earlier in Ballymurphy. All you need to do is type Killymurphy street into google & up will pop the training area that was designed specifically to part of ballymurphy. This wasnt a 1 off situation. Which would suggest more than one person be punished. Which would suggest it was organised, tactical violence. Which suggests SNCO and Officer involvement at Squadron level. Which suggests much higher officers involved gave specific orders. Yet so many here branding a naive, young lad a murderer for doing what they'd brainwashed/peerpressured him to do. Mitigating circumstances. By all means find him guilty of pulling the trigger, but he's a mere cog in the machine that kills people. Out of control rioters plus military brutality does not make British soldiers Nazis. It makes a scared son-of-a-bitch following orders. Without fair time and circumstance, education and confidence to make such an important call at such a critical time. So many guilty people in all this. Yet one man paying the price for everyone else's sins.. guilty or not, that's wrong. What our society is based on.. totally and utterly wrong. Soldier F was not a young lad. Plenty would need to be prosecuted for it but most are already dead or senile. Regardless the fella isnt going to do jail time If he does.hell be out within 6 weeks Its for show & no more. Trying to show a caring heart at uk govt level IF all that is true.. doesn't it make a mockery of the whole thing? No waiting Forty-Seven years to do it is the Mockery. True. But if it were a mockery still.. would you be feel better though? Surely real truth for ALL, real justice for ALL.. Is better than a pantomime performance? " Do you Really think the Houses of Parliament are going to let all there grubby little secrets out into the public domain over Northern Ireland ? There wouldnt be a Nation on Earth who would feel comfortsble dealing with them as it would expose all of Westminsters grubby little secrets out . | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It was murder and thats an end to it - trying to whitewash what happened by saying the march was illegal is condoning the murder of fellow human beings but, lets face it there are always people on here who are willing to ignore the truth and retell proven lies to show how self-righteous they are. The paras on the day were acting illegally and the subsequent desperate attempts to justify what happened by planting evidence was shameful and proved the lie. They disgraced themselves and their regiment on that day and they should all have been court martialled for their actions. With hindsight its easy to say the British army was not an enlightened institution at the time - it had a history of offensive actions against civilians in places like kenya, rhodesia, and South Africa to name just a few - not forgetting that there were plenty of paras who went on to work as mercenaries after completing their tours. London was the go to place for finding ex-soldiers to provide security services for dodgy regimes back then. I cannot deny that the IRA were absolute bastards, but so were the UDA and UVF and saying one side were better than the other is a waste of breath. I hope that soldier F is tried and that this will draw a line under it but for the families of those who were murdered I doubt it will ever be enough to make ip for the lies and dishonourable behaviour of the British government at the time but lets face it there’s always been heartless fuckers who send the troops in against the unarmed - remember Peterloo! Thank god for the good friday agreement and the opening of the borders as a consequence of EU membership which has given us all a peace that has allowed people to have hope and look to a safer future. It would be interesting to know if you have ever been to Northern Ireland or have any first hand experience in which members of the security forces had to operate. What can be said with absolute certainty is that the IRA were quite happy to murder innocent people. Not one soldier on the day concerned would have got up in the morning and decided that they were going to committ murder. How does the opening of the borders come into the equation ? . They were always open and you simply drove through a customs point. In many ways the GFA was premature. The IRA were heavily defeated and had no option but to try and negotiate in order to save face . Peace would have come about anyway and we would not now be in a position where we are unable to prosecute terrorists for some horrendous crimes . Ah....classic base tactics....the method of trying to undermine my arguments by suggesting I am unqualified to comment because of my lack of experience in the field. Taken from a humanist viewpoint, and looking at all the evidence available there are no contributing factors that would significantly alter the fact that unarmed people were murdered in cold blood and the killers were protected by the government of the day. I have friends on both sides of the border and their ability to travel freely in their own land without having guns trained on them from watchtowers as their cars and car contents are emptied all over the road is a significant improvement on daily life. Perhaps you have not experienced being questioned in that way so don’t understand the anger and humiliation it provokes? As to your questions about whether I have experienced any of the above - I have been to NI and Eire and I have family in the military but that has no bearing on my viewpoint. I trust that answers you adequately. I'm a Humanist. I'm Left Leaning, always have been, always will be. I'm also ex-Forces. Odd job choice right? Maybe not for a naive boy with zero life experience. Who believes the hype, fake history and nationalism we spew out en masse in this country. I've found myself in a similair situation and found it very hard to speak up, but did find the courage to refuse a direct order to kill. If you've no experience of crowd control, mob mentality, working in high tension environment like the police or armed forces.. or were there on the day itself, then you've no business judging this man as absolutely as many of you are. My heart goes out to the survivors of anyone killed in any conflict and I'd like to see an end to all war. I massively despise British Foreign policy and feel it's many of these disgusting decisions that cause situations like this to arise in the first place. It's the so called politicians that deserve a place in the dock. On all sides. Not the young men and women who volunteer to put themselves in harms way, in the vain hope we never risk their lives unessercarily. Trouble with this particular soldier he was one of a group 1 para who had done exactly the same thing only a few months earlier in Ballymurphy. All you need to do is type Killymurphy street into google & up will pop the training area that was designed specifically to part of ballymurphy. This wasnt a 1 off situation. Which would suggest more than one person be punished. Which would suggest it was organised, tactical violence. Which suggests SNCO and Officer involvement at Squadron level. Which suggests much higher officers involved gave specific orders. Yet so many here branding a naive, young lad a murderer for doing what they'd brainwashed/peerpressured him to do. Mitigating circumstances. By all means find him guilty of pulling the trigger, but he's a mere cog in the machine that kills people. Out of control rioters plus military brutality does not make British soldiers Nazis. It makes a scared son-of-a-bitch following orders. Without fair time and circumstance, education and confidence to make such an important call at such a critical time. So many guilty people in all this. Yet one man paying the price for everyone else's sins.. guilty or not, that's wrong. What our society is based on.. totally and utterly wrong. Soldier F was not a young lad. Plenty would need to be prosecuted for it but most are already dead or senile. Regardless the fella isnt going to do jail time If he does.hell be out within 6 weeks Its for show & no more. Trying to show a caring heart at uk govt level IF all that is true.. doesn't it make a mockery of the whole thing? No waiting Forty-Seven years to do it is the Mockery. True. But if it were a mockery still.. would you be feel better though? Surely real truth for ALL, real justice for ALL.. Is better than a pantomime performance? Do you Really think the Houses of Parliament are going to let all there grubby little secrets out into the public domain over Northern Ireland ? There wouldnt be a Nation on Earth who would feel comfortsble dealing with them as it would expose all of Westminsters grubby little secrets out ." They work for us, not the other way around. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
"It was murder and thats an end to it - trying to whitewash what happened by saying the march was illegal is condoning the murder of fellow human beings but, lets face it there are always people on here who are willing to ignore the truth and retell proven lies to show how self-righteous they are. The paras on the day were acting illegally and the subsequent desperate attempts to justify what happened by planting evidence was shameful and proved the lie. They disgraced themselves and their regiment on that day and they should all have been court martialled for their actions. With hindsight its easy to say the British army was not an enlightened institution at the time - it had a history of offensive actions against civilians in places like kenya, rhodesia, and South Africa to name just a few - not forgetting that there were plenty of paras who went on to work as mercenaries after completing their tours. London was the go to place for finding ex-soldiers to provide security services for dodgy regimes back then. I cannot deny that the IRA were absolute bastards, but so were the UDA and UVF and saying one side were better than the other is a waste of breath. I hope that soldier F is tried and that this will draw a line under it but for the families of those who were murdered I doubt it will ever be enough to make ip for the lies and dishonourable behaviour of the British government at the time but lets face it there’s always been heartless fuckers who send the troops in against the unarmed - remember Peterloo! Thank god for the good friday agreement and the opening of the borders as a consequence of EU membership which has given us all a peace that has allowed people to have hope and look to a safer future. It would be interesting to know if you have ever been to Northern Ireland or have any first hand experience in which members of the security forces had to operate. What can be said with absolute certainty is that the IRA were quite happy to murder innocent people. Not one soldier on the day concerned would have got up in the morning and decided that they were going to committ murder. How does the opening of the borders come into the equation ? . They were always open and you simply drove through a customs point. In many ways the GFA was premature. The IRA were heavily defeated and had no option but to try and negotiate in order to save face . Peace would have come about anyway and we would not now be in a position where we are unable to prosecute terrorists for some horrendous crimes . Ah....classic base tactics....the method of trying to undermine my arguments by suggesting I am unqualified to comment because of my lack of experience in the field. Taken from a humanist viewpoint, and looking at all the evidence available there are no contributing factors that would significantly alter the fact that unarmed people were murdered in cold blood and the killers were protected by the government of the day. I have friends on both sides of the border and their ability to travel freely in their own land without having guns trained on them from watchtowers as their cars and car contents are emptied all over the road is a significant improvement on daily life. Perhaps you have not experienced being questioned in that way so don’t understand the anger and humiliation it provokes? As to your questions about whether I have experienced any of the above - I have been to NI and Eire and I have family in the military but that has no bearing on my viewpoint. I trust that answers you adequately. I'm a Humanist. I'm Left Leaning, always have been, always will be. I'm also ex-Forces. Odd job choice right? Maybe not for a naive boy with zero life experience. Who believes the hype, fake history and nationalism we spew out en masse in this country. I've found myself in a similair situation and found it very hard to speak up, but did find the courage to refuse a direct order to kill. If you've no experience of crowd control, mob mentality, working in high tension environment like the police or armed forces.. or were there on the day itself, then you've no business judging this man as absolutely as many of you are. My heart goes out to the survivors of anyone killed in any conflict and I'd like to see an end to all war. I massively despise British Foreign policy and feel it's many of these disgusting decisions that cause situations like this to arise in the first place. It's the so called politicians that deserve a place in the dock. On all sides. Not the young men and women who volunteer to put themselves in harms way, in the vain hope we never risk their lives unessercarily. Trouble with this particular soldier he was one of a group 1 para who had done exactly the same thing only a few months earlier in Ballymurphy. All you need to do is type Killymurphy street into google & up will pop the training area that was designed specifically to part of ballymurphy. This wasnt a 1 off situation. Which would suggest more than one person be punished. Which would suggest it was organised, tactical violence. Which suggests SNCO and Officer involvement at Squadron level. Which suggests much higher officers involved gave specific orders. Yet so many here branding a naive, young lad a murderer for doing what they'd brainwashed/peerpressured him to do. Mitigating circumstances. By all means find him guilty of pulling the trigger, but he's a mere cog in the machine that kills people. Out of control rioters plus military brutality does not make British soldiers Nazis. It makes a scared son-of-a-bitch following orders. Without fair time and circumstance, education and confidence to make such an important call at such a critical time. So many guilty people in all this. Yet one man paying the price for everyone else's sins.. guilty or not, that's wrong. What our society is based on.. totally and utterly wrong. Soldier F was not a young lad. Plenty would need to be prosecuted for it but most are already dead or senile. Regardless the fella isnt going to do jail time If he does.hell be out within 6 weeks Its for show & no more. Trying to show a caring heart at uk govt level IF all that is true.. doesn't it make a mockery of the whole thing? No waiting Forty-Seven years to do it is the Mockery. True. But if it were a mockery still.. would you be feel better though? Surely real truth for ALL, real justice for ALL.. Is better than a pantomime performance? Do you Really think the Houses of Parliament are going to let all there grubby little secrets out into the public domain over Northern Ireland ? There wouldnt be a Nation on Earth who would feel comfortsble dealing with them as it would expose all of Westminsters grubby little secrets out . They work for us, not the other way around." Mate if you believe that then you have been living the con for Eternity. M.Ps may work for us but the ESTABLISHMENT certainly doesnt and it is they who control it all. | |||
| Reply privately | Reply in forum | Reply +quote |
| Post new Message to Thread |
| back to top |  |
