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"But what happens if leave win and remain lose that one? Third referendum? Referendums ad infinitum?" They would want best out of five  | |||
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"My take on yesterdays Shenanigans... Labour will support May's deal if it is conditional on a People's ratification mandate (as per the Good Friday Agreement referendum) If May's deal is then bizarrely voted down, the next day the Commons will vote to block a no deal exit. There are no indications that the Commons will do anything other than overwhelmingly rule out a no deal exit. This basically leaves only one option on the table - May's deal because given the window of opportunity (15 days) there is no time to negotiate anything else. The Commons will then vote on a short extension of A50 to 01st July. This will give time for Labour's conditional support mandate to be put in effect and to give the people their say on May's deal. The issue then is what will the other question be? It can't be a "no deal" if Parliament has ruled it out and there would be no more time to negotiate anything else. It can only be to revoke A50 and to Remain. So I think that May's deal will get through Parliament in a couple of weeks and if it passes with Labour support it will be with People's vote on the deal sometime in May with two questions. 1) May's deal 2) Remain" This is what will happen.I think this is what the PM and many in her party has wanted from day one after the last referendum .Regardless of what's said publicly. It's just taken time to place all the pieces in place before checkmate! | |||
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"But what happens if leave win and remain lose that one? Third referendum? Referendums ad infinitum?" I don’t think you have read the post have you? How do you see Leave being on the 2nd referendum? | |||
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"But what happens if leave win and remain lose that one? Third referendum? Referendums ad infinitum? I don’t think you have read the post have you? How do you see Leave being on the 2nd referendum?" it's win/win for the EU... may's deal= brexit in name only -39bn quid of tax payer money from UK remain=fuck democracy... | |||
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"the only thing that came out of yesterday is that the ERG have ended up overplaying their hand and that "no deal" is in effectively dead..... remember the order is that this will go.... 1) meaningful vote 2..... if that is defeated... 2) vote on ruling out "no deal".... if that is accepted 3) extension on a50.....a) how long? b) will the tories try to whip their people into making that as short as possible basically cooper/letwin got what they in effect wanted.... labour supporting it helped.... and the fact they are putting their own plan to the vote to get to a 2nd vote position helped... saying they would abstain to allow mays deal to pass to get to a 2nd vote is almost about as good a move as could happen.... and with no deal taken off the table the vote would have to be mays deal vs remain i look forward to moggsy and the ERG and farage make that case for mays to get what they want.... "moggs was on the radio today seems they dont want much so my bet is we will be leaving on the 29th  | |||
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"the only thing that came out of yesterday is that the ERG have ended up overplaying their hand and that "no deal" is in effectively dead..... remember the order is that this will go.... 1) meaningful vote 2..... if that is defeated... 2) vote on ruling out "no deal".... if that is accepted 3) extension on a50.....a) how long? b) will the tories try to whip their people into making that as short as possible basically cooper/letwin got what they in effect wanted.... labour supporting it helped.... and the fact they are putting their own plan to the vote to get to a 2nd vote position helped... saying they would abstain to allow mays deal to pass to get to a 2nd vote is almost about as good a move as could happen.... and with no deal taken off the table the vote would have to be mays deal vs remain i look forward to moggsy and the ERG and farage make that case for mays to get what they want....
I had no respect for you before now I think your just an idiot.
Do you not understand democracy ?"see.... that is democracy... wasn't the one thing you wanting from brexit was that parliament be sovereign? what part of that process isn't sovereign? | |||
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"the only thing that came out of yesterday is that the ERG have ended up overplaying their hand and that "no deal" is in effectively dead..... remember the order is that this will go.... 1) meaningful vote 2..... if that is defeated... 2) vote on ruling out "no deal".... if that is accepted 3) extension on a50.....a) how long? b) will the tories try to whip their people into making that as short as possible basically cooper/letwin got what they in effect wanted.... labour supporting it helped.... and the fact they are putting their own plan to the vote to get to a 2nd vote position helped... saying they would abstain to allow mays deal to pass to get to a 2nd vote is almost about as good a move as could happen.... and with no deal taken off the table the vote would have to be mays deal vs remain i look forward to moggsy and the ERG and farage make that case for mays to get what they want....
I had no respect for you before now I think your just an idiot.
Do you not understand democracy ?
see.... that is democracy...
wasn't the one thing you wanting from brexit was that parliament be sovereign?
what part of that process isn't sovereign? "I will answer with a statement from another part of the forum. Enjoy The Brexit process from start to finish has been a disgrace. From all sides Everyone has a vested interest in Brexit happening or not. Wether we agree or not we have had a number of votes and elections to get to this process. If some people frustrate it and it does not go through we are finished. When the rule of law and democracy is changed because it suits some ones agenda we are no more than a shitty banana republic. Hence why I think we should bring that tosser from Syria and put her in front of a judge. We are British. Gay,Trans,straight. Black,brown,white.Rich or poor. We must obey the will of the people. | |||
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"the only thing that came out of yesterday is that the ERG have ended up overplaying their hand and that "no deal" is in effectively dead..... remember the order is that this will go.... 1) meaningful vote 2..... if that is defeated... 2) vote on ruling out "no deal".... if that is accepted 3) extension on a50.....a) how long? b) will the tories try to whip their people into making that as short as possible basically cooper/letwin got what they in effect wanted.... labour supporting it helped.... and the fact they are putting their own plan to the vote to get to a 2nd vote position helped... saying they would abstain to allow mays deal to pass to get to a 2nd vote is almost about as good a move as could happen.... and with no deal taken off the table the vote would have to be mays deal vs remain i look forward to moggsy and the ERG and farage make that case for mays to get what they want....
I had no respect for you before now I think your just an idiot.
Do you not understand democracy ?
see.... that is democracy...
wasn't the one thing you wanting from brexit was that parliament be sovereign?
what part of that process isn't sovereign? "Got to love some of those weasel words Leave used, to stir opinion. I don't think we'll get that cliff jump on March 29th and the EU seem keen to potentially deliver a substantial extension, rather than a few weeks. Wise, based on the inability of the conservatives to make their minds up about what they want for 3 years, whilst other government issues have been sidelined. | |||
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"the only thing that came out of yesterday is that the ERG have ended up overplaying their hand and that "no deal" is in effectively dead..... remember the order is that this will go.... 1) meaningful vote 2..... if that is defeated... 2) vote on ruling out "no deal".... if that is accepted 3) extension on a50.....a) how long? b) will the tories try to whip their people into making that as short as possible basically cooper/letwin got what they in effect wanted.... labour supporting it helped.... and the fact they are putting their own plan to the vote to get to a 2nd vote position helped... saying they would abstain to allow mays deal to pass to get to a 2nd vote is almost about as good a move as could happen.... and with no deal taken off the table the vote would have to be mays deal vs remain i look forward to moggsy and the ERG and farage make that case for mays to get what they want....
I had no respect for you before now I think your just an idiot.
Do you not understand democracy ?
see.... that is democracy...
wasn't the one thing you wanting from brexit was that parliament be sovereign?
what part of that process isn't sovereign?
Got to love some of those weasel words Leave used, to stir opinion.
I don't think we'll get that cliff jump on March 29th and the EU seem keen to potentially deliver a substantial extension, rather than a few weeks. Wise, based on the inability of the conservatives to make their minds up about what they want for 3 years, whilst other government issues have been sidelined. "If that was to happen the problem arises of the eu elections we are leaving and have to vote for our eu mps cant see that happening. | |||
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"the only thing that came out of yesterday is that the ERG have ended up overplaying their hand and that "no deal" is in effectively dead..... remember the order is that this will go.... 1) meaningful vote 2..... if that is defeated... 2) vote on ruling out "no deal".... if that is accepted 3) extension on a50.....a) how long? b) will the tories try to whip their people into making that as short as possible basically cooper/letwin got what they in effect wanted.... labour supporting it helped.... and the fact they are putting their own plan to the vote to get to a 2nd vote position helped... saying they would abstain to allow mays deal to pass to get to a 2nd vote is almost about as good a move as could happen.... and with no deal taken off the table the vote would have to be mays deal vs remain i look forward to moggsy and the ERG and farage make that case for mays to get what they want.... moggs was on the radio today seems they dont want much so my bet is we will be leaving on the 29th "Moggs and his crew what a moron. | |||
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"the only thing that came out of yesterday is that the ERG have ended up overplaying their hand and that "no deal" is in effectively dead..... remember the order is that this will go.... 1) meaningful vote 2..... if that is defeated... 2) vote on ruling out "no deal".... if that is accepted 3) extension on a50.....a) how long? b) will the tories try to whip their people into making that as short as possible basically cooper/letwin got what they in effect wanted.... labour supporting it helped.... and the fact they are putting their own plan to the vote to get to a 2nd vote position helped... saying they would abstain to allow mays deal to pass to get to a 2nd vote is almost about as good a move as could happen.... and with no deal taken off the table the vote would have to be mays deal vs remain i look forward to moggsy and the ERG and farage make that case for mays to get what they want.... moggs was on the radio today seems they dont want much so my bet is we will be leaving on the 29th
Moggs and his crew what a moron."Compared with what Jeremy let see which way the wind is blowing traitorus lying Corybn. Are they morons for obeying the Law ? | |||
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"But what happens if leave win and remain lose that one? Third referendum? Referendums ad infinitum?" Leave with May's deal. Parliament won't let no deal through. So in a second ref situation the options will be May's deal, or no brexit. | |||
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"I think a lot of remainers are going to be in for a rude awakening if it comes to a vote in Parliament for a 2nd referendum. Reported in the papers today that upto 50 Labour MP's representing Leave voting constituencies would vote against a 2nd referendum. Those 50 Labour MP's plus the Conservatives and the DUP means a 2nd referendum isn't happening. "You get May's deal then As no deal will get blocked as well. The worst of remaining and the worst of leaving. | |||
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"But what happens if leave win and remain lose that one? Third referendum? Referendums ad infinitum? Leave with May's deal. Parliament won't let no deal through. So in a second ref situation the options will be May's deal, or no brexit." Once again Parliament doesn't have to let no deal through, it is already the default legal position. It was discussed on BBC Newsnight last night. The only way to stop no deal would be through Primary legislation and only the Prime minister and the government can bring forward primary legislation to stop it. | |||
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"I think a lot of remainers are going to be in for a rude awakening if it comes to a vote in Parliament for a 2nd referendum. Reported in the papers today that upto 50 Labour MP's representing Leave voting constituencies would vote against a 2nd referendum. Those 50 Labour MP's plus the Conservatives and the DUP means a 2nd referendum isn't happening.
You get May's deal then
As no deal will get blocked as well.
The worst of remaining and the worst of leaving."See my last post above. No Deal is already the default legal position. | |||
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"But what happens if leave win and remain lose that one? Third referendum? Referendums ad infinitum? Leave with May's deal. Parliament won't let no deal through. So in a second ref situation the options will be May's deal, or no brexit. Once again Parliament doesn't have to let no deal through, it is already the default legal position. It was discussed on BBC Newsnight last night. The only way to stop no deal would be through Primary legislation and only the Prime minister and the government can bring forward primary legislation to stop it. " That's not true. | |||
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"Don't forget that Macron has said (and Tusk agrees) that they wouldn't approve an extension of Article 50 anyway." .... see, thats not quite true either.... if we are going to say stuff, then at least we could quote in full...... both macron (and tusk) have both said they wouldn't just approve an extension of A%0... unless it was for something substantive... (they both don't believe in kicking the can down the road just for the sake of prolonging the pain) i think a 2nd vote for example would count as "some substantive" or getting everything rattified in the case of mays deal (which even the government have said they may not be time to get everything passed in law by march 29th anyway) | |||
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"I think a lot of remainers are going to be in for a rude awakening if it comes to a vote in Parliament for a 2nd referendum. Reported in the papers today that upto 50 Labour MP's representing Leave voting constituencies would vote against a 2nd referendum. Those 50 Labour MP's plus the Conservatives and the DUP means a 2nd referendum isn't happening.
You get May's deal then
As no deal will get blocked as well.
The worst of remaining and the worst of leaving.
See my last post above. No Deal is already the default legal position. "This is what you've come to? Not the rights and wrongs. Not what's best for the country. The promises of greater prosperity and a "clean" Brexit and having immediate trade deals and more money for the NHS all chaff in the wind now. The vocabulary is about surviving and getting through and being alright. Just the technicality beimg discussed so that you can get your way. #Brwxitatanycost | |||
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"But what happens if leave win and remain lose that one? Third referendum? Referendums ad infinitum? Leave with May's deal. Parliament won't let no deal through. So in a second ref situation the options will be May's deal, or no brexit. Once again Parliament doesn't have to let no deal through, it is already the default legal position. It was discussed on BBC Newsnight last night. The only way to stop no deal would be through Primary legislation and only the Prime minister and the government can bring forward primary legislation to stop it. That's not true. " Can't parliament vote down the government to stop it? | |||
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"But what happens if leave win and remain lose that one? Third referendum? Referendums ad infinitum? Leave with May's deal. Parliament won't let no deal through. So in a second ref situation the options will be May's deal, or no brexit." Not certain of what it would say and cannot see it happening.Parliament cannot stop no deal by just saying it so anything can happen and probably will | |||
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"But what happens if leave win and remain lose that one? Third referendum? Referendums ad infinitum? Leave with May's deal. Parliament won't let no deal through. So in a second ref situation the options will be May's deal, or no brexit. Once again Parliament doesn't have to let no deal through, it is already the default legal position. It was discussed on BBC Newsnight last night. The only way to stop no deal would be through Primary legislation and only the Prime minister and the government can bring forward primary legislation to stop it. That's not true. Can't parliament vote down the government to stop it?" From www.parliament.co.uk: "Parliamentary sovereignty is a principle of the UK constitution. It makes Parliament the supreme legal authority in the UK, which can create or end any law. Generally, the courts cannot overrule its legislation and no Parliament can pass laws that future Parliaments cannot change. Parliamentary sovereignty is the most important part of the UK constitution." | |||
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"But what happens if leave win and remain lose that one? Third referendum? Referendums ad infinitum? Leave with May's deal. Parliament won't let no deal through. So in a second ref situation the options will be May's deal, or no brexit. Once again Parliament doesn't have to let no deal through, it is already the default legal position. It was discussed on BBC Newsnight last night. The only way to stop no deal would be through Primary legislation and only the Prime minister and the government can bring forward primary legislation to stop it. That's not true. Can't parliament vote down the government to stop it? From www.parliament.co.uk: "Parliamentary sovereignty is a principle of the UK constitution. It makes Parliament the supreme legal authority in the UK, which can create or end any law. Generally, the courts cannot overrule its legislation and no Parliament can pass laws that future Parliaments cannot change. Parliamentary sovereignty is the most important part of the UK constitution."" No no no that's not true the UK will not be sovereign until it crashes out of the controlling EU and becomes an American state xxx | |||
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"Very seriously, remainers we must push for no exit simple as that Humans are stubborn, if there's a referendum we may hope for the right outcome but the probable outcome is out again When that happens , we will be out lots more uncertainty lots more division lots more disagreement and arguing the insolvable, with a very poor deal indeed No to referendum Yes to scrap and forget the whole sorry episode " A true leader would be strong enough to be honest, at whatever cost to self or party and revoke Article 50, when remaining is clearly in the national interest. | |||
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"I think you might be a bit deluded OP if you think a Binary ballot paper is acceptable if by some remote chance there is another vote. It clearly is not." I am following the events happening in Parliament and using actual statements and motions to summize and end game. How can it be deluded to assess what is actually happening? It would be deluded to ignore what was actually happening and make suppositions based on things that aren’t happening. | |||
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"I think you might be a bit deluded OP if you think a Binary ballot paper is acceptable if by some remote chance there is another vote. It clearly is not." It will be acceptable to many | |||
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" I am following the events happening in Parliament and using actual statements and motions to summize and end game. How can it be deluded to assess what is actually happening?" It's deluded if they don't agree basically. | |||
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"I think you might be a bit deluded OP if you think a Binary ballot paper is acceptable if by some remote chance there is another vote. It clearly is not. I am following the events happening in Parliament and using actual statements and motions to summize and end game. How can it be deluded to assess what is actually happening? It would be deluded to ignore what was actually happening and make suppositions based on things that aren’t happening." No you don't, you state at the end that you think it will be a binary ballot paper. That is clearly a biased personal view and not a report of what is actually going to be. Like most of us fuckers out here in normal land we do not have a clue what is going on in the westminster bubble but like most we speculate and think what it should be in fairness to Brexit voters and clearly a binary paper as you suggest would be absolutely rigged to give a remain vote. Now we know what is on offer surely it is the "peoples" right to have 3 opportunities with a second preference to make it absolutely fair. Your speculation is for 2 way Binary which clearly is just your thought. You even state in front of your sentence that " You think". read it carefully and tell me if I am wrong LOL | |||
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"I think you might be a bit deluded OP if you think a Binary ballot paper is acceptable if by some remote chance there is another vote. It clearly is not." The OP took the time out to put together a well written sequence of events they think will happen and in what order. If you disagree that's fine but what's your opinion on the sequence of events coming up soon then if the OP is so wrong? | |||
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"I think you might be a bit deluded OP if you think a Binary ballot paper is acceptable if by some remote chance there is another vote. It clearly is not. I am following the events happening in Parliament and using actual statements and motions to summize and end game. How can it be deluded to assess what is actually happening? It would be deluded to ignore what was actually happening and make suppositions based on things that aren’t happening. No you don't, you state at the end that you think it will be a binary ballot paper. That is clearly a biased personal view and not a report of what is actually going to be. Like most of us fuckers out here in normal land we do not have a clue what is going on in the westminster bubble but like most we speculate and think what it should be in fairness to Brexit voters and clearly a binary paper as you suggest would be absolutely rigged to give a remain vote. Now we know what is on offer surely it is the "peoples" right to have 3 opportunities with a second preference to make it absolutely fair. Your speculation is for 2 way Binary which clearly is just your thought. You even state in front of your sentence that " You think". read it carefully and tell me if I am wrong LOL"Yesterday Parliament voted overwhelmingly by a majority of more than 480 to agree to put “no deal” to a vote if May’s deal fails. Only 20 MP’s voted against the amendment which is around the number of MP’s who would probably vote in favour of a no deal Brexit. Labour have said that they would now back a conditional referendum similar to the referendum that ratified the Good Friday Agreement. This technically means that Labour would agree to support May’s deal conditional upon it being put to the people for ratification. Considering that May has also offered a vote on a short extension to A50 (thought to be 30 June) this opens the window for a quick referendum on May’s deal - or an alternative. The question is what would be the alternative? It would have to be decisive because the European Elections would have already taken place and there could be no further extension. The options then are either “no deal” which by definition is not actually “no deal” but it is not yet defined and only has the support of a handful of MP’s. The other option would be to revoke A50 and whilst few MP’s would back this in public at the moment, it would provide a balanced question bearing in mind the almost 50/50 split in the country, in Parliament and in Govt between Leave and Remain. May’s deal offers the result of the referendum albeit with very little clarity on the future and is a bit out, but still close to the EU and probably reflective of the 52/48 split from 2016. Revoking A50 is a repeat of the first question with benefit of the electorate now being more informed. If you have a thought that some other sort of Brexit should be on the ballot and not Remain at all - please explain your rationale. | |||
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" Are you some sort of lawyer because you seem to make a simple issue very complex. " I wonder if we're in this state of Brexit limbo because too many people were promised it would be oh so simple | |||
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"p.s. I voted to remain by the way but over the last couple of years have come to realize that at end of 2 year process maybe we should leave or change the EU. Maybe we will be the catalyst for change, maybe we wont. I think we should accept the EU deal that is on offer at face value, trust each other to seek a solution to the backstop problem through technology and move on in an orderly and unchaotic way. " That would be the best way out of this mess. | |||
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"Ha Surely it's simple. It's the same Brexit as offered 2 years ago which is the alternative. The crash out no deal possibility and the remain possibility. Are you some sort of lawyer because you seem to make a simple issue very complex. Perhaps some of us like the slow burner approach to leave, have you not consider that there are 3 alternatives or another arrogant remainer that thinks we should only have hobsons choice or no choice." There is no such thing as a crash out, no deal possibility. Nobody at all accepts that as any kind of possibility any more. Even the most ardent Brexiters now call it a managed no deal - in other words no deal by which the very worst aspects can be “hopefully” mitigated by some side deals with the EU. The problem with that though is that Parliament demonstrated yesterday that there are only a handful of MP’s who would countenance any kind of no deal scenario. There is nothing arrogant about looking at what is happening in Parliament and making suppositions based on what is actually happening. Why are you still suggesting that no deal is an option when only around 20 MP’s agree? How realistically could a no deal move forwards with so very little support? The difference between what you are saying and what I am saying is that my suppositions are based on what is happening and thereby whilst still an opinion - it is an informed opinion based on what is actually happening. Your opinion is disregarding what is happening and based embedded rhetoric. I am all ears if you can explain how no deal can now progress with patently so little support by MP’s. I agree, today it is the default position - but the vote in mid March (if Mays deal fails) will change that. That was proven yesterday by the level of support given to the amendment. | |||
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