FabSwingers.com forum: It just keeps giving ....

By *loswingers OP Couple
over a year ago

Gloucester

Oh my , yet another Labour Party mp quits over the anti semitism running rife through the party !

Despite all the trials and tribulations the tories are going through , their only real competition is self destructing as I type !

You couldn’t make it up , the Labour Party just keeps giving

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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago

Grantham

One just has to look at the posting by Chris Williamson MP this morning to see the direction that the Labour Party is going and wants to go!

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By *verysmileMan
over a year ago

Canterbury

"Oh my , yet another Labour Party mp quits over the anti semitism running rife through the party !

Despite all the trials and tribulations the tories are going through , their only real competition is self destructing as I type !

You couldn’t make it up , the Labour Party just keeps giving

Some wise politician once said in a patronising tone that a Government was only as strong as it's opposition.

It appears that this may just be correct.

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By *wisted999Man
over a year ago

North Bucks

If you dont think there is a problem with Anti Semitism then you are part of the problem. Said Jezza.

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By *entaur_UKMan
over a year ago

Cannock

Was interesting watching Question Time last night. Usually it's the Tory and Labour candidates at each others throats but last night there was real animosity between the Labour guy and Chris Leslie, (one of the Labour lot who left with the original 7). Anna Soubry should have been on the panel but looks like she bottled it.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

I see a lot of venom towards the departed from Labour supporters in my Facebook circle. I don’t react to it - Facebook aint the place for an argument

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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago

yumsville

"If you dont think there is a problem with Anti Semitism then you are part of the problem. Said Jezza. "

Deep.

Probably said it leaving his house doing an A-team style jump into his Rav4.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

Guido Fawkes has dug up a 2013 letter from John McDonnell to Theresa May, asking her to warn British citizens they risk being stripped of their citizenship if they volunteer for the Israeli Defence Force.

That’s a stonker for Labour’s critics, after Corbyn said yesterday the Begum woman should be helped to return home.

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By *icksoneMan
over a year ago

oldham

"I see a lot of venom towards the departed from Labour supporters in my Facebook circle. I don’t react to it - Facebook aint the place for an argument

No you use hear to vent your anti Brexit bigotry.

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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago

yumsville

"Guido Fawkes has dug up a 2013 letter from John McDonnell to Theresa May, asking her to warn British citizens they risk being stripped of their citizenship if they volunteer for the Israeli Defence Force.

That’s a stonker for Labour’s critics, after Corbyn said yesterday the Begum woman should be helped to return home."

JC knows the law too.

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By *wosmilersCouple
over a year ago

Heathrowish

That’s a stonker for Labour’s critics, after Corbyn said yesterday the Begum woman should be helped to return home."

If it relates to anyone volunteering to fight for another country, such as the French Foreign Legion, then it it simply an opinion.

If it relates to anyone taking up an armed struggle for a foreign power or group, then it is simply an opinion.

If this is solely aimed at those who volunteer for the IDF, who will probably be Jews, then it is anti-semitic as it is aimed solely at one racial group.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

"I see a lot of venom towards the departed from Labour supporters in my Facebook circle. I don’t react to it - Facebook aint the place for an argument

No you use hear to vent your anti Brexit bigotry."

Bigotry?

Can you explain what you mean?

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By *icksoneMan
over a year ago

oldham

"I see a lot of venom towards the departed from Labour supporters in my Facebook circle. I don’t react to it - Facebook aint the place for an argument

No you use hear to vent your anti Brexit bigotry.

Bigotry?

Can you explain what you mean?"

Really ?

Do I have to or do you never read what you write.

Definition of bigot. : a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.

Sound familiar ??

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

Where is your evidence?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

What is anti Semitic? And how do you prove someone is an Anti Semite ?

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By *laytimenowMan
over a year ago

Essex

"What is anti Semitic? And how do you prove someone is an Anti Semite ?"

Anti Semite is someone who os against places of Semetic lanhuage.

Palestine is a place of a Semetic language .

Who'd of thunk it.

Does that make Israel & Israelis who dont want Palestine to exist anti Semetic ?

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By *icksoneMan
over a year ago

oldham

"Where is your evidence?"

I only have a new battery in my phone and it only last 36 hours.

There is not enough time to copy and paste everything.

Everyone can see it but you and your intollerent beliefs

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

Thought so.

No evidence of abuse, no evidence of hate.

Just chuck some mud and hope it sticks, eh?

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By *ighland gentlemanMan
over a year ago

Ardgay

"What is anti Semitic? And how do you prove someone is an Anti Semite ?"

One theory is that those who actively support terrorist groups such as Hamas can be counted as anti semitic although others claim it is merely anti zionist.

It depends upon your viewpoint if you see anti semitic and anti zionism as different entities or not

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What is anti Semitic? And how do you prove someone is an Anti Semite ?

One theory is that those who actively support terrorist groups such as Hamas can be counted as anti semitic although others claim it is merely anti zionist.

It depends upon your viewpoint if you see anti semitic and anti zionism as different entities or not"

So mostly bollox then

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

So if a large number in the labour party is 'anti semitic' then the rest must be 'pro semitic'... so by being pro semitic they must be anti islamic because of the way islamic people in that region are treated by the pro semitic forces etc.... what does that make Sadiq Khan? I'm really really confused here....

is Judaism a race or religion?

Is Islam a race or a religion?

Do people that support a footie team that isn't Tottenham Hotspurs qualify as being anti semitic?

If the Isreali national team show up at Wembley and England supporters cheer on Englandshire...are they being anti semitic?

Am i reading too much into the debate?

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By *icksoneMan
over a year ago

oldham

"Thought so.

No evidence of abuse, no evidence of hate.

Just chuck some mud and hope it sticks, eh?"

I think the label of bigot is well and truly stuck to you

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By *verysmileMan
over a year ago

Canterbury

Anything that either says or implues some form of Jewish conspiracy is antisemitism. Anything that fails to deal with antisemitism is antisemitism.

For these concepts you can substitute Islamophobia.

So when MP and Labour Party member Ruth George tweets that those leaving the party are "financed by Israel", since withdrawn, she is on face value, guilty of antisemitism and surprise, surprise Labour have taken no action which puts them in the same boat.

Simples

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By *icksoneMan
over a year ago

oldham

"So if a large number in the labour party is 'anti semitic' then the rest must be 'pro semitic'... so by being pro semitic they must be anti islamic because of the way islamic people in that region are treated by the pro semitic forces etc.... what does that make Sadiq Khan? I'm really really confused here....

is Judaism a race or religion?

Is Islam a race or a religion?

Do people that support a footie team that isn't Tottenham Hotspurs qualify as being anti semitic?

If the Isreali national team show up at Wembley and England supporters cheer on Englandshire...are they being anti semitic?

Am i reading too much into the debate?"

Even my head hurts at this one.

WOuld it be easier to ban religion or would we find something else to squabble about

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

But Isreal is a country...and governments are just...well....governments. if someone critics communism does that make them anti chinese, venezuelan, cuban etc?

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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago

yumsville

Good to see lefties finding their fingers and toes on this one.

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral

"Oh my , yet another Labour Party mp quits over the anti semitism running rife through the party !

Despite all the trials and tribulations the tories are going through , their only real competition is self destructing as I type !

You couldn’t make it up , the Labour Party just keeps giving

Some wise politician once said in a patronising tone that a Government was only as strong as it's opposition.

It appears that this may just be correct."
A very true question this was a question in my British constitution and government A level many years ago when I took it and I studied this from 1918 to the late 60's and found it is a very true statement I got a B in my A level in those days a high mark.

Not making the point about me but the evidence is clear that the opposition is very important and if they fail the government fails

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

is Judaism a race or religion?

Is Islam a race or a religion?

Do people that support a footie team that isn't Tottenham Hotspurs qualify as being anti semitic?

If the Isreali national team show up at Wembley and England supporters cheer on Englandshire...are they being anti semitic?

Am i reading too much into the debate?"

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"What is anti Semitic? And how do you prove someone is an Anti Semite ?

Anti Semite is someone who os against places of Semetic lanhuage.

Palestine is a place of a Semetic language .

Who'd of thunk it.

Does that make Israel & Israelis who dont want Palestine to exist anti Semetic ?"

Actually Arabs are Semites too so technically, which ever side you support or oppose, you could be called anti-Semitic. However generally anti-Semitism is usually used only for anti Jewish intolerance.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"What is anti Semitic? And how do you prove someone is an Anti Semite ?

Anti Semite is someone who os against places of Semetic lanhuage.

Palestine is a place of a Semetic language .

Who'd of thunk it.

Does that make Israel & Israelis who dont want Palestine to exist anti Semetic ?

Actually Arabs are Semites too so technically, which ever side you support or oppose, you could be called anti-Semitic. However

generally anti-Semitism is usually used only for anti Jewish intolerance.

but it's NOT Jewish intolerance is it? It may be criticism of the state of Isreal but criticising a government does not constitute criticising a religion or (if you insist) a race of people....even though Judaism is a religion and not a race....the same way christianity isn't a race or islam isn't a race etc.... if you were to say...'i hate capitalism' does it mean you hate western culture/religion/people etc...

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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago

upton wirral

is Judaism a race or religion?

Is Islam a race or a religion?

Do people that support a footie team that isn't Tottenham Hotspurs qualify as being anti semitic?

If the Isreali national team show up at Wembley and England supporters cheer on Englandshire...are they being anti semitic?

Am i reading too much into the debate?

"
Probably reading to much into it but I think you will find that Judaism is more a race than a religion and possibly the same for islam at least in this country but an interesting subject.

There are people of course who are anti Jews,Muslims,Blacks etc.I did meet a guy like this once who basically disliked anyone who was not white,Endlish and from Merseyside.I was horrified to be honest but these people do exist.The world is an odd place.

I met him on a course and he was the only one to fail the exam lol.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yeah but there are white british islamists and also black jewish people so i still contend that judaism and islam are religions and not races. Christianity is all over the world and practised by people of all colour and race and it's the most criticised and ridiculed religion of the main ones.

A person can convert to any religion but can't convert to being a different race.

also a democratically elected government of a modern country can't claim to be of a specific religion because of the diversity of people, groups, citizens or religions living in that particular country. So criticising a particular government does not constitute anti christian, anti jewish, anti muslim, anti budism sentiment etc...

So a person saying 'i hate..capitalism/communism/zionism/socialism or whatever has no bearing on what that person thinks of the people living under these ideologies...surely!

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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago

yumsville

"Yeah but there are white british islamists and also black jewish people so i still contend that judaism and islam are religions and not races. Christianity is all over the world and practised by people of all colour and race and it's the most criticised and ridiculed religion of the main ones.

A person can convert to any religion but can't convert to being a different race.

So a person saying 'i hate..capitalism/communism/zionism/socialism or whatever has no bearing on what that person thinks of the people living under these ideologies...surely!"

Where does government lay claim to not being able to be criticised?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Errm...Isreal?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

North Korea, China...you can end up in a world of shit if you openly criticise these governments if you live there especially

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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago

yumsville

"Errm...Isreal? "

Ok to stay on topic and away from China, where is it legislated you cannot criticise the Israeli Government?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Errm...Isreal?

Ok to stay on topic and away from China, where is it legislated you cannot criticise the Israeli Government? "

the newly devised anti semitism guidelines. Just ask half of the labour party inc J. Corbyn. Criticism of the actions of the Isreali government and defence forces lands you in a pot of shit....read some of the older posts on this thread and do a little bit of research into people who criticise isreal and what happens to them

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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago

yumsville

"Errm...Isreal?

Ok to stay on topic and away from China, where is it legislated you cannot criticise the Israeli Government?

So you'd rather talk about criticising Israeli and it's government,

than criticising JC's letter to May where he gives an opposing view of peoples statehood should they leave the UK to fight for other states than he just has done with Shamima Begum.

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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago

yumsville

You must have blinkers on if you are denying MP's are leaving Labour through issues of anti semitism. You must have blinkers on if you think that anti semitism doesn't exist or that it isn't an issue within the party.

If you think that anti semitism rules are too strict and need re-writing, that again is your issue. The whole of Parliament adopted them - save Labour who wanted to change them.

If you can't see that at some level the leader of the party is responsible for this - then who else is?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Why would i make mention of a girl who supposedly left England to join ISIS? The OP was concerned with the anti semitism row that has erupted within the Labour party. I was just delivering some facts about criticising certain States, religions, governments and groups of people worldwide.

I have very little interest in that isis bride story...but i do have an interest in the implications of criticism of governments. Check back through my posts and point out any incorrect statements i have made and i shall be man enough to bow to superior wisdom or correct any mistakes i have made

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Yes but quote me things that have been said that constitute anti semitism by labour members....outside what members have said about the treatment of palestinians or the actions of the isreali state. As was pointed out earlier by other posters on this thread....semitism is relevant to languages spoken. I think Arabic was used as an example of a semetic language

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By *rumalexMan
over a year ago

Birmingham

Personally i don't think criticising the Isreali government should be classed as anti semitic, All governments should be open to criticism of their policies.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Personally i don't think criticising the Isreali government should be classed as anti semitic, All governments should be open to criticism of their policies. "

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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago

yumsville

"Why would i make mention of a girl who supposedly left England to join ISIS? The OP was concerned with the anti semitism row that has erupted within the Labour party. I was just delivering some facts about criticising certain States, religions, governments and groups of people worldwide.

So with 640 complaints of anti semitism upheld and on going police investigation into 48 cases (facts), what is your opinion on MP's like Luciana Berger questioning her government on antisemitism, her voice not being heard and ultimately threatened with de-selection.

Or is it as you muse, that the definition is wrong.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"Personally i don't think criticising the Isreali government should be classed as anti semitic, All governments should be open to criticism of their policies. "

my point exactly...

criticising zionism does NOT mean criticising 'the jews'

Criticising the isreali army does not mean criticising 'the jews'

Criticising the treatment of non combatant palestinians by isreal does not mean criticising 'the jews'

Criticising the isreali government does not mean criticising 'the jews'.....

If one were to openly say nasty, horrible and disgusting slurrs towards jewish people then yes...in my opinion that would constitute anti semitism.

The new anti semetic guidlines drawn up forbid pretty much all of the above and these guidlines can be changed/expanded at a moment's notice....

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By *wosmilersCouple
over a year ago

Heathrowish

"Personally i don't think criticising the Isreali government should be classed as anti semitic, All governments should be open to criticism of their policies.

my point exactly...

criticising zionism does NOT mean criticising 'the jews'

Criticising the isreali army does not mean criticising 'the jews'

Criticising the treatment of non combatant palestinians by isreal does not mean criticising 'the jews'

Criticising the isreali government does not mean criticising 'the jews'.....

If one were to openly say nasty, horrible and disgusting slurrs towards jewish people then yes...in my opinion that would constitute anti semitism.

The new anti semetic guidlines drawn up forbid pretty much all of the above and these guidlines can be changed/expanded at a moment's notice...."

So when Ruth George MP tweets that the breakaway MPs are financed by Israel, with no evidence, and then withdraws the tweet because she was told that it may have implied some sort of international jewish conspiracy, is this an example of antisemitism? And is a failure to suspend or investigate an encouragement of antisemitism by default?

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

'It may have implied'.... that would obviously depend on how the reader takes the statement. The statement itself isn't anti semitic in my view. If it had read 'Irish groups financing' would that imply a catholic conspiracy?

So this politician mentions Isreal in a statement about financing a british political group....do you really think that jewish people

worldwide are going to freak out claiming anti semitism and racism and fascism and nazism etc....?

There are several jewish lobby groups involved in the politics of this country and massively involved in US politics. Nobody shits the bed whenever AIPAC gets mentioned and that is an extremely powerful Isreali lobby group.

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By *wosmilersCouple
over a year ago

Heathrowish

"'It may have implied'.... that would obviously depend on how the reader takes the statement. The statement itself isn't anti semitic in my view. If it had read 'Irish groups financing' would that imply a catholic conspiracy?

So this politician mentions Isreal in a statement about financing a british political group....do you really think that jewish people

worldwide are going to freak out claiming anti semitism and racism and fascism and nazism etc....?

So you do not think it was an antisemitic statement?

In which case the problem of not recognising antisemitism is more deeply rooted than we thought....

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Explain to me how saying 'financed by Isreal' is anti semitic in this case.... Then explain to me how it's not anti semitic to say 'AIPAC is financed by Isreal' ....

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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago

yumsville

"Explain to me how saying 'financed by Isreal' is anti semitic in this case.... Then explain to me how it's not anti semitic to say 'AIPAC is financed by Isreal' ....

If you read the agreed rules on antisemitism, it probably falls under the following.

"Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions"

Unless Ruth had evidence they were being financed, it was removed due to it being very close the above definition.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

But she said ISREAL..... not 'the jews' ... do i need to go through it again?

Criticising Isreal is NOT criticising 'the jews'...

The same way that criticising Italy is not criticising 'the catholics'

Criticising China is not having a go at bhudism...etc etc....

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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago

yumsville

"But she said ISREAL..... not 'the jews' ... do i need to go through it again?

You need to have a word with yourself.

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By *verysmileMan
over a year ago

Canterbury

"But she said ISREAL..... not 'the jews' ... do i need to go through it again?

You need to have a word with yourself."

It seems to be a common factor in not recognising antisemitism because those who flirt with it refuse to believe that it amounts to what it is. Perhaps readers should look at the language used in Der Sturmer and ask themsleves how it is any different.

The real problem is not the closed minds of small minded bigots but the failure to deal with it.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan
over a year ago

Widnes

"But she said ISREAL..... not 'the jews' ... do i need to go through it again?

Criticising Isreal is NOT criticising 'the jews'...

The same way that criticising Italy is not criticising 'the catholics'

Criticising China is not having a go at bhudism...etc etc...."

Being Jewish is not just about having a religion, it's also about ethnicity too. You can be an atheist and still be Jewish, you can't be atheist and still a Christian or Muslim.

She said Israel, not Jewish so it's not anti-semitic you claim. But it is and here's why.

7 MPs leave the Labour Party because they think it has an anti-semitic culture.

Members of the Labour Party claim that they are not being anti-semitic but are just being critical of Israel.

A leading member of the Labour Party then makes an unproven claim that Israel is financially backing the 7 members who have left.

The implication is that Israel is backing the 7 to help stop criticism of Israel and the 7 are part of some pro Jewish, Israeli, Zionist secret conspiracy to prevent criticism of Israel and not a genuine concern about racism and anti-Semitism in particular.

The really worrying thing is that a lot in the left really do believe this.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"But she said ISREAL..... not 'the jews' ... do i need to go through it again?

Criticising Isreal is NOT criticising 'the jews'...

The same way that criticising Italy is not criticising 'the catholics'

Criticising China is not having a go at bhudism...etc etc...."
.

It's a strange situation where once they can label you with a name, they can side line your opinions and thoughts as "crazy".

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Regardless of label and semetism semantics, when your party has people leaving (and probably foregoing their seat at the next GE) over anti semetism, and your reaction is to tweet something implying conspiracy theories (rife in anti Semitic i circles I believe), you’re reinforcing the viewpoint something just ain’t right. The nitpicking always comes across like the way people justify old people’s racism.

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By *ara JTV/TS
over a year ago

Bristol East

"Regardless of label and semetism semantics, when your party has people leaving (and probably foregoing their seat at the next GE) over anti semetism, and your reaction is to tweet something implying conspiracy theories (rife in anti Semitic i circles I believe), you’re reinforcing the viewpoint something just ain’t right. The nitpicking always comes across like the way people justify old people’s racism. "

I agree with you. It is really making me think twice about whether I can vote for Labour in its current condition.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

"But she said ISREAL..... not 'the jews' ... do i need to go through it again?

Criticising Isreal is NOT criticising 'the jews'...

The same way that criticising Italy is not criticising 'the catholics'

Criticising China is not having a go at bhudism...etc etc.....

It's a strange situation where once they can label you with a name, they can side line your opinions and thoughts as "crazy".

I'm going to be honest..

It's a strange world when I find myself agreeing with sponger...,

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Everythings a conspiracy when the establishment wants it to be (Israel) and just obviously factual when it suits them (Russiagate).

Somewhere in the middle lies the truth, I don't think everybody who constantly blame Russia for everything are anti Russian but they have some truth in that Russia likes to destabilise Western powers somewhat and people who blame Israel for everything aren't always antisemitic, Israel like Russia and every other major country likes to destabilise and spy on foe and friends, often Israel's best interests are not ours!.

This doesn't mean Jews are bad people although there in the main people who believe crazy shit (Judaism) not quite as batshit crazy as Muslims and thankfully a dammed site more democratic.

But all of this is a side note and doesn't really answer why we have so much Jewish influence inside British politics and sadly there now being followed by Muslim influence inside British politics!!.

If you really really want to screw your country up giving batshit crazy fanatics (highly religious people) major influence inside your government then readily sprinkle your government with people highly open to bribery and back slapping clubs and voila, expect to be sold down the swannery some time soon.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Everythings a conspiracy when the establishment wants it to be (Israel) and just obviously factual when it suits them (Russiagate).

This doesn't mean Jews are bad people although there in the main people who believe crazy shit (Judaism) not quite as batshit crazy as Muslims and thankfully a dammed site more democratic.

But all of this is a side note and doesn't really answer why we have so much Jewish influence inside British politics and sadly there now being followed by Muslim influence inside British politics!!.

Until there is any evidence the independent group are funded by Israel it’s conspiracy. And such suggestions are as dangerous as any fake news out there.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Everythings a conspiracy when the establishment wants it to be (Israel) and just obviously factual when it suits them (Russiagate).

This doesn't mean Jews are bad people although there in the main people who believe crazy shit (Judaism) not quite as batshit crazy as Muslims and thankfully a dammed site more democratic.

But all of this is a side note and doesn't really answer why we have so much Jewish influence inside British politics and sadly there now being followed by Muslim influence inside British politics!!.

Until there is any evidence the independent group are funded by Israel it’s conspiracy. And such suggestions are as dangerous as any fake news out there. "
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I've no idea about this new group I was actually referring to the labour friends of Israel, the conservative friends of Israel, the lib Dems friends of Israel, the British Israel communications and research centre, the board of deputies of British Jews and on and on the list goes.

Theres about 250,000 Jewish people living in the UK, similar to the amount of Buddhists yet about 2000 times more lobbying.

Like I said Israels best interests are often not ours yet a majority of those 250,000 UK citizens consider Israels best interests above ours! Ask a Catholic if they want what's best for the Vatican or a Muslim for Mecca, you'll get pretty similar answers.

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By *eepndarkMan
over a year ago

Cardiff

It unforgivable that at this time party politics is the number 1 concern. All efforts should be focussed on the elephant in the room.

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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago

Luciana Berger who quit labour was also at one time the director of friends for Israel.A Jewish lobby group.She is obviously very pro Israel seeing she had that title.

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